You'd probably be surprised . . . code written for the WINE project, along with curent X implementations, could probably help out a freed Deskqview/X (and, in the case of undocumented Win calls, which still exist in Windows, could help the WINE project immensely, I'm sure.)
Good point, and quite frankly, if one goes for a product like WineX, one gets a very-close-to-working Windows environment, with the ability to install apps in one's own user directory, plus integration with the KDE menu.
Come to think of it, if you get CodeWeavers' branch of WINE, it'll integrate with desktop menus as well.
I agree; it sounds like something not far from a standard Linux desktop + WINE, with a neato script to parse a user's Start menu. So it has better WINE integration than Redmond Linux. Woohoo.
If you're wondering, CmdrTaco, why TrueType fonts are giving you fits in KDE apps, go yell at the package maintainers. It might urge them to do something other than make excuses such as "KDE is harder to maintain than GNOME" (Which is B.S., unless you do it the way Debian's package maintainers do it)
Hell, I might move back to Debian if you'd help get something done about it.
Or maybe some of us should just make packages of KDE that aren't split into a million pieces, and instead focus on putting together packages that work.:-P
Actually, if you read what you wrote, it's easy to see how I could come to that conclusion.
Anyway, I'm divorcing myself from this thread, because this is turning into a classic troll: you post semi-ignorant-sounding comment, I post somewhat-condescending comment, and you come along, righteously indignant and quick to defend yourself, with links, even! It's tiresome and old, and I'm tired.:-P
I really don't care what Andy Oram has to say on the subject, either, because thinking that Red Hat falling in with AOL would change the *entire Linux world* is sheer idiocy. And you and I know you were just trolling for flames, and you got them. Congratulations.
In case you hadn't noticed, the comment you commented on was posted by Perdida, who is an Adequacy regular. Adequacy specializes in patently unfunny trolls that can be mistaken for true feelings, and funny to exactly 7 people.
I guess you're new to the world of Linux, so I'll be charitable. Red Hat merely produces a distribution centred around the Linux kernel, GNU tools, and a raftload of other software.
Linus Torvalds, father of the kernel and current head honcho of kernel development, works for Transmeta, not Red Hat.
How does that work, you ask? Simple. The only person who "owns" anything related to Linux is Linus, who holds the trademark for Linux. If Red Hat (or, in the future, AOL) were to get too asinine with the use of the Red Hat name, as they have done recently, it's conceivable that Linus could simply tell them they haven't the right to call their product "Red Hat Linux" anymore.
The world of Linux is far more complex than the world of Microsoft, for many reasons.
BTW, this kind of bashing between the high priests of Linux is not good.
OTOH, It's had positive results. On one side, we have a VM that's being optimized for server use. On the other, a VM that's more optimized for desktop performance.
I'd rather have two VMs than some big, complex piece of code that tries to allow the user to tune the kernel while running...nothing like making a more complex piece of software. As far as I'm concerned, more code complexity == more chances for bugs.;-)
If you're going to compare it to an imac I'd like to see what the hardware support is like - without resorting to standard linux utilities which would feel out of place on a machine where everything is xul based.
And while we're at it, if you're going to compare this device to an iMac, let's specify OSes here. There's plenty of hardware that's MacOS-compatible--if you're talking about 9.2 or below. And some of that stuff won't work in Classic mode on 10.1.2.
Macs, for the time being, now have something in common with Linux users--a great OS with a dearth of native apps. For that reason, I lump OSX in with what the ZDNet trolls lovingly refer to as "not ready for the desktop."
A lot of folks are mentioning ports trees . . . anyone who's taken a look at the GNU/Linux port of the FreeBSD ports tree will note that it takes an incredible amount of hacking to get that tree to work under Linux.
Gentoo Linux (http://www.gentoo.org) is building a ports-like tree called Portage, based on Python rather than a mix of Makefiles and shell scripts. It combines the features of cvsup (actually, it just calls rsync; the command to update the portage tree is "emerge rsync"), make install (emerge blah.ebuild) and portinstall (emerge blah/blah). Soon, emerge will have the equivalent up portsupdate.
The system can install source, create bzip2'd tar packages, or, as an option. RPMs.
Of course there's areas where rpm is superior...just don't tell the Debianites, as you'll have an apt jihad (and apt isn't even deb-specific! dpkg is the package manager!)
It's relevant to point out that it's possible to put together distributions with crappy dependencies using either rpm or deb.
RPMs aren't as good as Debian's package management system though.
You're comparing apples and oranges, my anonymous, not-too-bright child. RPMs are packages. Debian's package management system is, well, a package management system.
I used to use RPMs all the time but since switching to Debian it's SOOOO much easier to get and upgrade packages.
Still apples and oranges. Truth be told, the RPM format is more robust than.deb, and to tell you the truth, our (yes, I use Debian . . . for the moment:-) precious apt system wasn't designed for just deb. Conectiva and Mandrake (their Cooker, the equivalent of Sid), among others, are both apt-enabled and RPM-based.
In the ease of use department, the Mac wins, hands down. Ease of use does not mean "Works like Windows" it means that the program is easy to use and to figure out.
Ooh! Someone suggested that someone could be easy-to-use and yet not-entirely-like Windows! Jihad! JIHAD!!!!!!
Have you used MacOS X? It's great. It's easy to use and if you know what you're doing, you can do great things with it. It's stable (Not "Real UNIX" stable, but it's never crashed on me). It's got a BSDish kernel that you don't need to recompile, as well as an excellent GUI called Aqua.
I managed to get the kernel to panic while trying to connect to an AppleShare printer. Like you said, it's not "Real UNIX" stable.
Maybe if they didn't throw every #@%! thing they can think of into the kernel, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.
Its only problem is that it is a little slow on my little G3. G4s work so much better for it.
It is pretty sweet on a G4. I rather wish they'd gone for merely improving the desktop in a light-yet-pretty way, but I guess Apple just had to put together a look-and-feel that shows off their new display tech. Looks nice, but it's a little bloated for my taste.
Oh, MacOS X's core is open source.
Hard to beat, iddintit? Maybe we could convince MS to release some code under a non-viral license. Funny, isn't it, that MS, of all companies, the same company that harps on the GPL for being "viral" would release the most viral open-source license I've ever seen.
A little odd for a company that also benefits from BSD code.
If Slashdot wants to be taken seriously, Dave Barry needs to make sure he always has the most up to date OS?
Bingo. Thank you. I christen thee Capt. Logic.
See, kids, this is why you should have gone to college before running off to some doomed-from-the-start startup. Perhaps if you'd all had, oh, say, a formal logic course, you'd all spot the logical fallacy right away.
What I love is getting in arguments with anti-Open bigots. First they'll tell me that Free *n?x on the desktop will never work because of reasons that, without getting into them, not even WinXP can do (such as supporting every piece of known PC hardware, without outside drivers and zero configuration, with 0% problems.)
When I mention problems I've had with various Windows systems, I'm simply dismissed (in most cases) with something along the lines of "sounds like you don't know what you're doing." Hello? I thought that, for Mom & Pop to have an OS that's Ready For The Desktop(TM) that Mom & Pop should be able to be drooling idiots and still check their email. Now we have to have fairly sophisticated knowledge of Windows to be a desktop OS user? Yet Linux On The Desktop(TM) has to 1.) support every known piece of hardware without requiring any computer skills or even any user interaciton 2.) have replacement apps for MS Office apps that support 100% of Office docs, 3.) an interface that's 100% identical to Windows, 4.) allow the rooling-idiot Mom & Pop to go buy Windows (and hell, Mom & Pop sometimes accidentally grab Mac apps; IMHO, if they do that, they really don't need a computer) apps at Babbage's and have a.) the CD automounted b.) have WINE run autostart.exe (or whatever it is; I've not use Windows for a while) and c.) have 0% problems running the Windows app? Oh, and if it's not too much trouble, have the same level of support for MacOS apps, in case Mom & Pop can't be bothered to read the label (or section headers in the store)? 5. Make it so easy to install, a trained chimp could do it.
Folks, if those are the criteria for an OS being ready for the desktop, not even MacOS or WinXP pass. Sorry.
Really, it's not been all that long since there wasn't hardware support for MP3. Use OGG, and they (the hardware manufacturers) will come. Had it not been for MP3's popularity, you'd not see devices like the Rio line and others.
Michael Hall seems to think that nobody involved with Debian will mind if he "points out" that Debian development is slow.
I hope Michael Hall doesn't mind my pointing out that he's completely unqualified to make such a comment, as Debian's just as fast as anyone else. Anyone who's actually bothered to visit the Debian website would know that there's not just one but three different branches of Debian Linux development; it only seems to be behind if you use Debian stable, which is behind by quite a bit because...well, damn it, go check the Debian web site if you don't know.
Damn it, and I bet Michael Hall gets paid to write about Linux.
i used to work for a small group that did its newsletter in ms word's.doc format, and when i became editor i moved it all to opensource software. NONE of the alternatives, (abiword or staroffice, on which openoffice is based) would open the.doc correctly
Now you know how WordPerfect/Lotus 1-2-3/etc. users felt when the world switched to MS Office.
None of the specifics matter all that much though- newbies need to be able to boot into a usable interface, they will have plenty of command line hacking and learning ahead of them, but the installation is *not* the correct place for a trial-by-fire learning experience, unless the operating system is specifically designed to scare away the feeble-minded (not a bad goal, but not, imho, the goal of slack or debian).
This brings up an interesting point--when I first put Slack on my current box, I ended up hosing the partition table through stupidity. I was almost ready to curse Linux installers . . . until I installed Windows. Most people don't know how horrible a Windows install really is because most people have never installed Windows. Ugh. I'd not wish a Windows install on anyone.
Windowmaker rocks. I'm just sorry people don't really pay attention to it anymore, as it's fairly intuitive, and has a set of tools surrounding it that make it as easy to administer as, say, GNOME. Really.
It doesn't have to just be a pretty interface, it has to be one that's simple as well as powerful and intuitive.
Agreed, but I have a hard time believing that OS X is that, either (note that I agree that Gnome's interface is crud, too...which is why I stick with KDE) especially since Apple felt the need to take the new system's native interface (N*xtStep) and their legacy interface (MacOS) and stir the two together, and combine it with eyecandy that's there primarily to show off their new display tech.
I've worked with it for a while, and find it to be an unintuitive pile of crap.
It's fun to harrass you because of a.) your extreme paranoia b.) your gleeful desire to make extreme leaps of illogic, especially if it's not-Slashdot and c.) your undeniable persecution complex.
Despite all that, I find your writing to be extremely thoughtful. Just wish you'd stay away from Open/Free-bashing and your illogical desire to remind everyone that you interned at MSFT (yeah, YHBT. HAND.)
Catch you later...and when can we expect your next kuro5hin essay? Believe it or not, I always learn something new...and I'm being honest here...:-)
Slashdot Mirror
You'd probably be surprised . . . code written for the WINE project, along with curent X implementations, could probably help out a freed Deskqview/X (and, in the case of undocumented Win calls, which still exist in Windows, could help the WINE project immensely, I'm sure.)
Come to think of it, if you get CodeWeavers' branch of WINE, it'll integrate with desktop menus as well.
I agree; it sounds like something not far from a standard Linux desktop + WINE, with a neato script to parse a user's Start menu. So it has better WINE integration than Redmond Linux. Woohoo.
Hell, I might move back to Debian if you'd help get something done about it.
Or maybe some of us should just make packages of KDE that aren't split into a million pieces, and instead focus on putting together packages that work.
Anyway, I'm divorcing myself from this thread, because this is turning into a classic troll: you post semi-ignorant-sounding comment, I post somewhat-condescending comment, and you come along, righteously indignant and quick to defend yourself, with links, even! It's tiresome and old, and I'm tired.
I really don't care what Andy Oram has to say on the subject, either, because thinking that Red Hat falling in with AOL would change the *entire Linux world* is sheer idiocy. And you and I know you were just trolling for flames, and you got them. Congratulations.
In case you hadn't noticed, the comment you commented on was posted by Perdida, who is an Adequacy regular. Adequacy specializes in patently unfunny trolls that can be mistaken for true feelings, and funny to exactly 7 people.
I guess you're new to the world of Linux, so I'll be charitable. Red Hat merely produces a distribution centred around the Linux kernel, GNU tools, and a raftload of other software.
Linus Torvalds, father of the kernel and current head honcho of kernel development, works for Transmeta, not Red Hat.
How does that work, you ask? Simple. The only person who "owns" anything related to Linux is Linus, who holds the trademark for Linux. If Red Hat (or, in the future, AOL) were to get too asinine with the use of the Red Hat name, as they have done recently, it's conceivable that Linus could simply tell them they haven't the right to call their product "Red Hat Linux" anymore.
The world of Linux is far more complex than the world of Microsoft, for many reasons.
OTOH, It's had positive results. On one side, we have a VM that's being optimized for server use. On the other, a VM that's more optimized for desktop performance.
I'd rather have two VMs than some big, complex piece of code that tries to allow the user to tune the kernel while running...nothing like making a more complex piece of software. As far as I'm concerned, more code complexity == more chances for bugs.
And while we're at it, if you're going to compare this device to an iMac, let's specify OSes here. There's plenty of hardware that's MacOS-compatible--if you're talking about 9.2 or below. And some of that stuff won't work in Classic mode on 10.1.2.
Macs, for the time being, now have something in common with Linux users--a great OS with a dearth of native apps. For that reason, I lump OSX in with what the ZDNet trolls lovingly refer to as "not ready for the desktop."
Even better, apt-get has had RPM support for quite some time.
Gentoo Linux (http://www.gentoo.org) is building a ports-like tree called Portage, based on Python rather than a mix of Makefiles and shell scripts. It combines the features of cvsup (actually, it just calls rsync; the command to update the portage tree is "emerge rsync"), make install (emerge blah.ebuild) and portinstall (emerge blah/blah). Soon, emerge will have the equivalent up portsupdate.
The system can install source, create bzip2'd tar packages, or, as an option. RPMs.
It's relevant to point out that it's possible to put together distributions with crappy dependencies using either rpm or deb.
get it? no? ask someone who knows.
You're comparing apples and oranges, my anonymous, not-too-bright child. RPMs are packages. Debian's package management system is, well, a package management system.
I used to use RPMs all the time but since switching to Debian it's SOOOO much easier to get and upgrade packages.
Still apples and oranges. Truth be told, the RPM format is more robust than
Maybe it's time for SuSE to upgrade to the newest KDE-stable?
Ooh! Someone suggested that someone could be easy-to-use and yet not-entirely-like Windows! Jihad! JIHAD!!!!!!
Have you used MacOS X? It's great. It's easy to use and if you know what you're doing, you can do great things with it. It's stable (Not "Real UNIX" stable, but it's never crashed on me). It's got a BSDish kernel that you don't need to recompile, as well as an excellent GUI called Aqua.
I managed to get the kernel to panic while trying to connect to an AppleShare printer. Like you said, it's not "Real UNIX" stable.
Maybe if they didn't throw every #@%! thing they can think of into the kernel, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.
Its only problem is that it is a little slow on my little G3. G4s work so much better for it.
It is pretty sweet on a G4. I rather wish they'd gone for merely improving the desktop in a light-yet-pretty way, but I guess Apple just had to put together a look-and-feel that shows off their new display tech. Looks nice, but it's a little bloated for my taste.
Oh, MacOS X's core is open source.
Hard to beat, iddintit? Maybe we could convince MS to release some code under a non-viral license. Funny, isn't it, that MS, of all companies, the same company that harps on the GPL for being "viral" would release the most viral open-source license I've ever seen.
A little odd for a company that also benefits from BSD code.
Bingo. Thank you. I christen thee Capt. Logic.
See, kids, this is why you should have gone to college before running off to some doomed-from-the-start startup. Perhaps if you'd all had, oh, say, a formal logic course, you'd all spot the logical fallacy right away.
I really wish MS could embrace that concept--I might be inclined to trust their OSes a little more if they would.
When I mention problems I've had with various Windows systems, I'm simply dismissed (in most cases) with something along the lines of "sounds like you don't know what you're doing." Hello? I thought that, for Mom & Pop to have an OS that's Ready For The Desktop(TM) that Mom & Pop should be able to be drooling idiots and still check their email. Now we have to have fairly sophisticated knowledge of Windows to be a desktop OS user? Yet Linux On The Desktop(TM) has to 1.) support every known piece of hardware without requiring any computer skills or even any user interaciton 2.) have replacement apps for MS Office apps that support 100% of Office docs, 3.) an interface that's 100% identical to Windows, 4.) allow the rooling-idiot Mom & Pop to go buy Windows (and hell, Mom & Pop sometimes accidentally grab Mac apps; IMHO, if they do that, they really don't need a computer) apps at Babbage's and have a.) the CD automounted b.) have WINE run autostart.exe (or whatever it is; I've not use Windows for a while) and c.) have 0% problems running the Windows app? Oh, and if it's not too much trouble, have the same level of support for MacOS apps, in case Mom & Pop can't be bothered to read the label (or section headers in the store)? 5. Make it so easy to install, a trained chimp could do it.
Folks, if those are the criteria for an OS being ready for the desktop, not even MacOS or WinXP pass. Sorry.
Really, it's not been all that long since there wasn't hardware support for MP3. Use OGG, and they (the hardware manufacturers) will come. Had it not been for MP3's popularity, you'd not see devices like the Rio line and others.
I hope Michael Hall doesn't mind my pointing out that he's completely unqualified to make such a comment, as Debian's just as fast as anyone else. Anyone who's actually bothered to visit the Debian website would know that there's not just one but three different branches of Debian Linux development; it only seems to be behind if you use Debian stable, which is behind by quite a bit because...well, damn it, go check the Debian web site if you don't know.
Damn it, and I bet Michael Hall gets paid to write about Linux.
Now you know how WordPerfect/Lotus 1-2-3/etc. users felt when the world switched to MS Office.
This brings up an interesting point--when I first put Slack on my current box, I ended up hosing the partition table through stupidity. I was almost ready to curse Linux installers . . . until I installed Windows. Most people don't know how horrible a Windows install really is because most people have never installed Windows. Ugh. I'd not wish a Windows install on anyone.
Windowmaker rocks. I'm just sorry people don't really pay attention to it anymore, as it's fairly intuitive, and has a set of tools surrounding it that make it as easy to administer as, say, GNOME. Really.
Agreed, but I have a hard time believing that OS X is that, either (note that I agree that Gnome's interface is crud, too...which is why I stick with KDE) especially since Apple felt the need to take the new system's native interface (N*xtStep) and their legacy interface (MacOS) and stir the two together, and combine it with eyecandy that's there primarily to show off their new display tech.
I've worked with it for a while, and find it to be an unintuitive pile of crap.
Give me my NextStep look-and-feel! :-P
Despite all that, I find your writing to be extremely thoughtful. Just wish you'd stay away from Open/Free-bashing and your illogical desire to remind everyone that you interned at MSFT (yeah, YHBT. HAND.)
Catch you later...and when can we expect your next kuro5hin essay? Believe it or not, I always learn something new...and I'm being honest here...:-)