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MS Struggles to Discredit Linux
PrimeNumber writes "The Register has this interesting story about a supposedly "leaked" email from Microsoft Windows division VP Brian Valentine. Although half of it is admittedly suit/rah rah speak, the interesting nuggets mention use of Microsofts "Sun and Linux insiders"."
The whole email is pretty funny actually.
Gee, it's not like the Linux crowd has been trying to do this to Microsoft for the past 10 years or anything. ;p
We now need a list of those insiders... hmm... Any ideas here?
the PS of his email says it all --
if you think I am not tracking this message, think again
makes me wonder about WinXP's calling home.....
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
The tone of the message seems to suggest that he knew it possibly would be leaked. The wording seems to carefully step around anything suggesting Linux is evil, but suggests that he considers Linux the alternate operating system competitor that it is, sort of like Coke vs. Pepsi...
it's not possible, hosehead
Discredit seems a bit harsh. He just seems to be encouraging his peons to try and make sure that they beat Linux to the punch when they're dealing with their corporate customers, especially when those customers are looking at getting rid of their specialist UNIX systems in favour of PC-based stuff.
;)
He does imply that Windows beats Linux in all corners, but a guy's allowed an opinion, especially when he's trying to rally the troops...
I hope people out there are not actually going to believe this. Please read the letter first and then think about it.
the site already seemed pretty darn slow so:
What's cheaper than an OS you can buy outright once and install on every PC in your shop -- and upgrade cost-free for eternity to boot? Why, a slew of cheesy licenses for Microsoft Windows, 'Doze Division VP Brian Valentine claims in his latest cheerleading effort for his sales associates.
That's right; a putatively independent analysis by 'we'll-conclude-anything' whores DH Brown is going to rip Linux a new one and find that Windows is actually cheaper. How Valentine knows this is anyone's guess. Perhaps he has a mole in the Brown organization as good as the one we have in his. Or perhaps MS simply paid for it. We don't know.
It also appears that MS has bought off a number of Linux/Sun 'insiders' whose job it will be to explain to the sales team how to pitch the illusory advantages of Windows to unsuspecting IT managers. "Dumber people can run Windows" is the best advert I personally can come up with, though this is without the benefit of expensive analysts and turncoat 'insiders' to feed me intriguing tidbits.
But let's let Valentine tell it in his own words:
From: Brian Valentine
Sent: Wed 12/26/2001 7:14 PM
To: WW Sales, Marketing & Services Group
Subject: Me again -- Linux updates
Microsoft Confidential -- Do not print, copy or forward this email and do not share this email with anyone out side the company. For internal use only!
Now that the whole world knows we are taking Linux seriously based on the leak of my last email... Wait -- stop there -- since when did they think we weren't taking them serious?!? Did they think we are not going to build the best products possible? Did they think we were going to just be fat, dumb and happy and not continue to win business? Did they think we were going to forget about taking care of our customers??? NO!
Who do they think we are? We have the best d*mn sales force in the world backed by the best engineers in the world -- of course we will take any non-Windows OS serious. The thing about the leak that made me mad was not that we would legitimize Linux, etc. it's good in some places, we are better, and it's not very good in other places and we are much better. but they are a competitor and we will compete. What made me mad was that my friends -- some of you and some of our customer's names where in that email and then available for all to see on the web. That made me mad. I want you selling and supporting our products -- not having to take random calls, emails, etc from the press and others and I know what out customers share with us is in confidence that we will keep it internal. I have no problem any random Linux person sending me hate mail, junk mail, adding my email address to every list server out there, you name it -- that comes with the job, but I don't want my friends to have to deal with the same junk.
Ok, Ok, enough of that. On to some new things we are doing for you around Linux.
Linux is out there in some of your accounts and you may not know it. The ground up nature of how Linux is introduced into our accounts means that we need to modify our traditional approaches of finding out about Linux in our customer base. We have to be more hands on and dig deeper in your accounts!
Many Linux projects in CAS and Depth accounts happen below the IT Manager/BDM level. It's crucial that you get out there with your TSP/SE/MCS folks and do actual walkthroughs in your accounts. Ask open ended questions; find out what they're evaluating for both key projects as well as smaller, more tactical projects. Ask about the 'connector' pieces -- you'll potentially find Linux in these areas. This is a great way to not only find out about Linux, but also other IT projects that may include Novell, Sun, Oracle, and other competitors! If you are struggling with how to do this, then do the simple exercise of walking through you accounts data centers and when you see a Sun or IBM machine, ask what it's used for, if you see some strange servers you don't what they are doing -- ask what is running on them and take notes. I would like to challenge each of you to have these conversations with your customer as soon as you can. Oh -- and you can bet anyplace IBM is talking to your accounts, they are saying Linux and switching to higher end non-pc systems. With the current economic times we are living in, just about every customer is looking into how they can get rid of those over-priced, legacy Unix systems and ride the PC economics wave. We need to be there when they are making these decisions and prove to them the Windows platform is the best platform for them across any aspect of their business.
I want you to know just how seriously we're taking Linux here in Redmond. We're investing major efforts in creating easier processes and resources for you.
I. To start, we have expanded the in-field Linux Competitive Champ program and renamed it "Linux Insiders". Like the other TSP Champs programs, it has been changed to use the new TSP role-based database and will be ready to roll out with its new name at the Envision event in January. It is up to each regional TSP manager to select or assign each member; therefore, anyone wishing to become an Insider should see their manager to be signed up. Much like the support "communities" that define the Linux experience, the FCS team will strive to build a community to cooperate in winning business against Linux. By building a virtual team of field staff and corporate resources, we will enable the field to have one place to go for communication and competitive information. The Linux Insiders will have access to a centralized web site where personnel can request help, route issues, and share best practices that the entire field can leverage. This site, a restricted sub-set of the http://infoweb/linux site, will be accessible by all "Insiders," for items such as SLT reviews, web-casts, notes from conference calls and other sensitive information. If you have questions about the Insiders program, please email Kelly File of the FCS
team at mailto:kellyfi.
II. Second, I'd like to announce the new Linux/UNIX escalation process that is being headed up by [MS Enterprise & Partner Group VP] Charles Stevens' organization. Here's how it works:
a. First, make sure you check out the latest additions to the Web sites: http://infoweb/linux and http://infoweb/sundown.
b. If you can't find what you need there, involve your local expert: the district Linux or Sun Insider (TSPs with Linux and/or Sun competitive responsibilities). These Insiders have the expertise and the resources to help you win. You can find your local Insider on the web sites.
c. If you still need help for Global, Strategic and Major accounts, the Linux/Sun Insiders (or your GM) can escalate the issue to the new corporate Linux/Unix Escalation Team. Let me emphasize that you need to work with your local Insider or your GM because they have direct access to this escalation team. The team is committed to provide an initial response within one working day. These guys have in-depth UNIX industry backgrounds and have been winning against UNIX and Linux. The product development organization will be working closely with this team to make sure you have all the resources you need.
III. Finally, we're working hard to debunk the myths around Linux. We're approaching this in waves.
a. The first wave will attack the perception that Linux is free. To that effect, we'll have an independent analysis commissioned by DH Brown looking at a very popular topic these days -- server consolidation. If you're not seeing this yet, you probably will. IBM is proposing to use Mainframes running many virtual instances of Linux as a low cost server consolidation scenario for file and print, messaging, and database activities. The DH Brown report will be customer ready and will help your customer understand just how competitive Microsoft is in this arena.
b. The second wave will be a full blown cost analysis comparison case study between Linux and Windows in a variety of usage scenarios (web, file and print, etc.) done independently by the analysts for us. ETA for this tool is in May and it will be a great tool to help you sell the value of Windows solutions over Linux. If you have any questions on this study, please email the mailto:lnxteam alias.
You can expect us to turn up the volume on winning against Linux, as well as IBM. There is some great cross team work between PMG, SMG, and CMG marketing groups to ensure we're addressing your needs and believe me, that feedback goes directly to me and the senior leadership team so we can build better products to help you win against Linux!
Thanks,
Brian
Microsoft Confidential -- Do not print, copy or forward this email and do not share this email with anyone out side the company. For internal use only!
PS: I used to run Exchange -- so if you think I am not tracking this message, think again. Don't forward it! And if you have forward rules that have forwarded this message, then perhaps you should think again about forwarding internal email with those rules. I want to give you folks all the information I can in a very open way. If we continue to have bad apples or careless people out there, I will not be able to help you by sending this kind of information!
Simply copy n' paste your favourite expression into a post!
- "Oooh! How schweet! Does it run Linux?"
- "I wonder how long it will take before Linux is ported to this puppy?"
- "I was going to write the app, but I was too lazy to do it, and waited for someone else to make it instead."
- "The GPL is great - Let's discuss it."
- "My professor said I should be using emacs..."
- "My professor said I should be using vi..."
- "It's sooo easy to port this application, why hasn't anyone done it yet? I would, but I'm too busy working on the kernel and choosing new Transformers wallpaper..."
- "If everyone was as talented a coder as me, we'd have beaten Microsoft by now!"
- "I don't care if Windows Ultra has no bugs or security flaws whatsoever, it's still worse than Linux."
- "Chyeah! Right! If it was a business requirement to use Java, they should have refused to do the project!"
- "Of course I don't use Internet Explorer. I only use it when I'm forced to, like at the office, and at school, and at home..."
- "The government can kiss my ass until they stop monitoring my phone calls... FREEEEEDOM!"
- "I can't believe you paid money for Photoshop! GIMP is way better dude!"
- "I was going to Ask Slashdot, but then I noticed that Dragonball Z was on cartoon network..."
- "I've always wanted a Japanese girlfriend so I can understand my non-dubbed/subbed anime collection..."
- "Uh! That's is such a rip off of Communication OS from Serial Experiments Lain!"
- "Why didn't Alan ask Linus about the VM? I like being on first name basis with my heroes."
- "Everyone on IRC told me Enterprise was crap. I watched it, loved it, and then told everyone I met that it was crap."
- "The government is taking away my rights! This is so like '1984'!"
- "I'm reading the preface to C for Dummies and my head already hurts..."
- "But real programmers use a CLI! Anybody who doesn't use a Common Library Injector should have got a degree like me!"
- "I'm going to code my Gamecube emulator in C, but even though I have only ever used Visual Basic Learning Edition, it should be a one banana problem and ready in the next few days."
- "I hardly think you can call me a fashion victim - I been encoding to ogg since 1994"
- "But I'm taking Computer Science at university; You WILL respect my opinion! I am the law!"
- "I may have only just graduated, and may still be looking for work, but I've got more experience than you with your '20 years of coding'!! Get A BS!"
- "I asked Neff if they would Open Source the code to my microwave, but they told me it was proprietary..."
- "I know Ada, Fortran, Cobol, C, C++, Java, HTML, Perl and RPG.... Oh, I thought you meant know *of* them..."
NickTheGreek, LondonThe traffik's blaadhy murder, but then that's part a' the charm, aint't it?!
What especially rings my "hoax/troll bell" is the last couple of lines about the message being "Microsoft Confidential" and how he can track any and all forwards. Give me a break.
This article is complete bull. Nobody will ever be able to convince me otherwise. It was written by a well-intentioned Linux advocate and sent to The Register because it would give the people of Slashdot a reason to cheer.
Nothing to see here, folks. These are not the e-mails you're looking for. Move along.
or is it? I don't know what to think. At first, I thought "no one would seriously write this" but it turned into "you can't make this stuff up."
From: Brian Valentine
Sent: Wed 1/2/2002 1:14 PM
To: WW Sales, Marketing & Services Group
Subject: Me again -- Linux updates (part 2)
Our elite PI squad has managed to break into the linux infrastructure! Now, all their source code base are belong to us! With their source code, we can now see how they do things. This infiltration of linux will let us defeat linux, once and for all, from the inside! All we must do now is figure out what the heck all that code means... We would know already, but Visual Basic wasn't able to open their source code files for some reason.
"I have not failed. I've simply found 10,000 ways that won't work." --Thomas Edison
"Although half of it is admittedly suit/rah rah speak, the interesting nuggets mention use of Microsofts "Sun and Linux insiders"
hmmm, i wonder how this email was obtained?
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
Do you know how incredibly easy to fake something like that is? Here you go:
Get a free email account
Anonymously mail it to someone gullible enough to take it seriously
Watch the slander show roll on as Slashdot posts the article!
Frankly, Slashdot needs to have higher editorial standards if they ever want to reach the respectability of ZDnet or The Register. I've been reading this site since 1996, and quite frankly I'm getting a little sick of the complete lack of ethics or research put into articles.
For that matter, the only thing about that letter is that they're still taking Linux seriously. Come on. A market share of 0.24% is a threat?
Dragging people kicking and screaming into reality since 1996.
Does this mean MS is commiting corporate espionage and sabotage against Linux and Solaris? Meaning MS is paying someone to work for Sun and quietly cause problems with Solaris code. Same for Linux - have someone inside Red Hat or even as just any ol' OSS guy causing problems to the Linux kernel. Of course, the Linux kernel is under much more watch than Solaris is.
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
...is the results of these surveys they are conducting. How exactely they are going to argue that MS products are less expensive than running Linux? I guess they will try to gloss over the original software costs and bring up the training and "support" issues (which are vague and hard to quantify, thereby easily manipulated). And of course they will also gloss over security issues.
Oh well.
So what's he running now, Sendmail?? heheh
What a tard. You can't track if someone cuts and pastes it into a new e-mail. Then again, I guess we *are* talking about MS employees.
-brain
Unless the text of the e-mail was reformatted by the register, does anyone else find it odd that the message was in brick text?
In the immortal words of Socrates, who said; 'I drank what?'
Okay, who works for the Global Linux Escalation Team? I'm imagining a set of MS techs in Star Wars Stormtrooper gear.
The sad part is the quote at the end.
Puts on bad German accent (like on the one from Hogan's Heroes): "Dear troops. There iz a threat to us out thar called Leeenox. It is insidious; it may be in your very server room right now! Go out! eradicate the Leeenox Scum! Use our informants to bring zee traitors to heel! "If you forward or leek thiz email, you will be summarily sent to the Eastern Front!"
CDE open sourced! https://sourceforge.net/projects/cdesktopenv/
"PS: I used to run Exchange -- so if you think I am not tracking this message, think again. Don't forward it! "
That line would be enough motivation for me to leak that msg.
This email looks a lot to me like he wrote it and it was released intentionally as some type of stupid PR thing...
i hate pansy republicans
you must be on cheap drugs
It's ironic that Microsoft is getting a dose of its own medicine. The IT department (which existed pre-PC) tried to get everybody to use their centrally managed platform, but people just kept buying those darn PCs running Microsoft software.
Well, that aside, I wouldn't necessarily trust the authenticity of the E-mail. Can Microsoft management be stupid enough to send out mail with big warnings "don't forward this"? Haven't they learned from painful pas experience that if you don't want it to get forwarded, you don't send it by E-mail? At the same time, the content of the E-mail seem in character for Microsoft.
Most plausible about it is the obsessive need by Microsoft to control the whole market and let no competition appear. And that's exactly why Microsoft needs to be reduced in size: there is nothing wrong with having Microsoft be a big player in the market, but there is a lot wrong with any OS or software vendor being the only significant player in its market segment.
While I am sure that Email's like this are probably all over the place at any large firm, it is easy enough to fake. Let's have the same standard of proff that we demanded from Katz on the Afghanistan Email...Let us see the headers. Again, fakable, but still more beliveable.
I mean, does anyone here really care what the Marketing of MS is doing? It shopuld be fairly obvious to anyone oput here what there tactics are.
As far as the email goes, It really doesn't seem that far fetched. The thing about marketing is that you have to present a postive spin on eveything. which means that if you know of, or request and independent study, you assume that it is going to prove what you want to know.
Why expect marketing to be naything other than marketing.
Open Source Identity Management: FreeIPA.org
The real threat to Microsoft / Windows isn't on the corportate desktop, but in the server market:
Netcraft survey
With an estimated 15-20 Linux users, I think there's also a lot of home & student usage, plus the cost benefit of Linux is causing poorer countries such as Brasil to look at Linux for use within the school system.
PS: I used to run Exchange -- so if you think I am not tracking this message, think again. Don't forward it! ...and that is why people cut and paste.
Linux is, after all, an extremely expensive operating system. After all, just look at Hewlett Packard, their Linux distribution sells for $3000 retail. When was the last time you saw a copy of Windows XP (and this is a retail copy, not considering the fact that it comes free with most new machines) for $3000? And think of the support costs! Whereas you can drag just about any MCSE off the street who doesn't drool too much and use him to effectively administer an NT network, you need highly intelligent, qualified people 24/7 in order to maintain a Linux installation. And guess what? They don't grow on trees, enough of you ought to know that; they are expensive. Just as with commercial UNIX, it isn't the initial cost that will break you, it is the ongoing support contracts from the vendor that are the most expensive over time.
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
Maybe its a message to the linux community that its time to grow up. Look back at Amiga, Be, and OS2 newsgroups and you'll see the fine tipping point where advocacy gets stifling, annoying, and often leaves only the completely clueless fanboys participating in the discussion at all.
Personally I'd like to see /. evolve a bit in 2002...beating the linux drum is a useful practice, but a raison d'etre, it does not make.
"...we'll have an independent analysis commissioned by DH Brown..."
Hahahaha!
"PS: I used to run Exchange -- so if you think I am not tracking this message, think again."
Yeah, I wonder how long it will take for MS to release a version of the Exchange client that doesn't allow copying&pasting and screenshots...
_______
2B1ASK1
Not hard to do, assuming clueless users. Just write it in HTML and embed a web bug. Every time the message is opened in Outlook (or Kmail) it sends a message home.
Best Slashdot Co
The second wave will be a full blown cost analysis comparison case study between Linux and Windows in a variety of usage scenarios (web, file and print, etc.) done independently by the analysts for us. (Emphasis added)
If it's a hoax, then the pranksters know this is just how Microsoft think - lets pay someone to do an "independent" job - and are doing a great chain-pulling job. If it's real - and I personally think it is - then, er, it's funny for the same reason. Millions will be given to the analysts to produce what Microsoft wants. A good 70% of the result will be refuted within days of publication. The 30% that makes good points will just focus the priorities of the developers concerned.
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
c'mon most of us prob read el reg as well so read the article this morning. why bother repeating the story and then everone posts an opinin and most of the original text?.
oh hang on......
perl -MIO::Socket -e 'IO::Socket::INET-new(PeerAddr="some.windoze.box:1
I just saw this at newsforge, I dont care for vomit, i want new stories or at least a commenatry....
taco, you get PAID to vomit? i want your job.
It's funny how marketing-speak has its meaning (if any) independent of the subject. For example:
With the current economic times we are living in, just about every customer is looking into how they can get rid of those over-priced, legacy Unix systems and ride the PC economics wave.
Could have the subjects swapped to read:
With the current economic times we are living in, just about every customer is looking into how they can get rid of those over-priced, legacy Windows systems and ride the Linux economics wave.
- and still not really mean much (though many slashdotters may prefer the second version).
http://fsfeurope.org/
Just typical bs stuff that Microsoft(TM) intends to use, what is pretty neat is the recognition of the bottom up approach of most *nix implementations which makes it VERY difficult to fight from a M$ standpoint, *any vendor will have trouble replacing a well implemented free system*.
The idea that sales reps have open access to customer data centers (ie - OWNS the floor) is a silly notion and lets you know clueless people are allowing sales reps into the data centers.
All I can say is bring me yer M$ sales engineer and I'll feed his ass to the wolves in front of clients.
"IIS, need I say more?"
--Adrian
Honestly, isn't "discredit" a slightly harsh, or at least not-quite-right, word for this email? This isn't some mass-media FUD campaign; I mean, it's a motivational email to (presumably) a bunch of sales wonks, encouraging them to try and sell their products. Gasp, call the Justice Department.
It's not as if Linux vendors aren't out there right now doing the same thing, telling customers they're bug-nuts for running NT/2000/XP. I realize it's pretty funny and/or scary to hear him talk about "eliminating" Linux from customer sites, of doing "walkthroughs" to find hidden Linux machines, like some kind of Secret OS Police. But from a business standpoint, you want to sell to your customers, as much as possible. This is just a reminder to the sales guys, "Hey, don't let any sales opportunities slip through your fingers".
Don't get me wrong, MS has been Very Bad on many different things, but I fail to see how trying to sell their product should be considered some kind of Evil Act (tm).
It hurts when I pee.
This sounds like a big scary task force of Windoze suits equipped with page after page of FUD, moving into every client they have and investigating (read: Spying) their enterprises usage. Snoop out the linux and squash it dead.
MS Suit: and this box over here, what's it running?
Joe, IT Manager: It's a debian box I built that works as a router, jabber server, and sendmail server for our engineering staff
MS Suit: (Scratches some notes in little black book of infidels) Ah, I see...
Replacing his sunglasses
We will be in touch
Snaps his little black book closed and walks out
We dance to all the wrong songs.
--Refused.
The point isn't that they shouldn't fight, I mean that's what businesses do, we all know that. The point is that yet again Microsoft doesn't fight fair, and they have illegal practices.
~ now you know
He sounds like he's doing what was mentioned a few posts ago, hiring people to try and make Linux less efficient or less desirable or whatever. But how could he do that if the entire idea of linux is that a worldwide community can modify and improve the code? If there were a Microsoft-planted problem in the kernel, it would be fixed within hours.
It's either a low-quality fake or a Microsoft employee who knows jack about his competition.
~q of course
contre.org. fighting crime since 1985.
i quit reading about 2 paragraphs in because
i couldnt stop thinking 'what is the
proof that this was real?' and also
'this was on slashdot, how credible
can it possibly be? not very i reckon'.
too bad your 'moderators' cant
do something about your credibility problem.
i guess trolls werent what was going to
destroy slashdot, were they?
First, he mentions the "previous" email leak [quote]Now that the whole world knows we are taking Linux seriously based on the leak of my last email... [unquote] Now, this is the first mail he sends to the guys and he right out says "someone leaked my mail". I think not...
[quote]then do the simple exercise of walking through you accounts data centers and when you see a Sun or IBM machine, ask what it's used for, if you see some strange servers you don't what they are doing -- ask what is running on them and take notes.[unquote]. He already said that last time, and considering how the slashdot crowd reacted at this comment, I don't see any other reason to mention this than raise the voices once more...
How would anyone be careless twice in a row (if the first one wasn't a hoax too).
One shall speak only if what one has to say is more beautiful than silence
That a division VP of Microsoft doesn't understand you can highlight-copy-paste to get around any forward tracking he's devised.
Go Lakers!
Then you have this site. Basically 90% of the articles about "M$" have some anti-MS slant that they resort to FUD and to flat out lying. Doesn't every word that comes out of CmdrTaco, Michael Sims, and Timothy's mouth have some inane misinformed rant? Who can forget "Another gaping MS hole goes unpatched"? or the comment from CmdrTaco a few days ago about how xboxes overheat?
I think this site needs to clean up its own act before laughing about the same things others do.
Theres one important clue here that points to this email as being legitimate. The lack of British euphamisms. The Register is a UK-based resource. If they wanted to doctor up a fake email in a conversational tone, it would have been written differently from the style in which it appears. Infact, when I was reading it, I kept expecting to see language differences, and didn't find any. Hell, to any self-respecting haxx0r, that bad-bad-doggy conclusion at the bottom of the email just begs to be disobeyed.
Even more true is the snippet about DH Brown being total FUD-whores. It says so right on their damn webpage, you can pay for the results you want.. Give em $1M and they'll tell that the majority of people surveyed think the sky is green, Windows is better, and we all ride around on invisible pink unicorns.
Bowie J. Poag
H:\>net use N: \\redmond_homes\bvalentine$
The command completed successfully.
H:\>N:
N:\>cd pictures
N:\Pictures>dir *.png
Volume in drive N has no label.
Volume Serial Number is 0000-FFFF
Directory of N:\Pictures
12/12/2001 11:56 AM 126,093 Picture_Of_Linus_T_In_Polka_Dot_Panties.PNG
1 File(s) 126,093 bytes
0 Dir(s) 29,193,998,336 bytes free
Sh*t, hope Brian doesn't find out it was me again... I hate it when he rams the heated curling iron you know where...
It seems to hit what one imagines to be M$'s attitude towards selling software right on the nail. They even censor themself (d*mn), or is that an Outlook filter or something (Never used M$ on the internet in any way). So if it is fake, nice touch. If not, it just strengthens my resolve never to use any M$ product and to avoid buying them in any kind of bundled offer, unless I can't avoid it.
I am still ROTFLMAO about the confidentiality notice and the threat to anyone who will breach it.
***Quis custodiet ipsos custodes***
Sorry, I don't buy this one.
sPh
unless they are really stupid.
It's a simple trick - they sent out slightly different copies of the email to everyone on the list. Then, when the public version gets published they can reference the published version against who got what.
The changes can be cosmetic - slight changes in phrasing, additional punctuation, spacing, line breaks. Stuff like this would be pretty much unnoticeable without having a couple of different copies to compare against. Even then, it would likely be tough to notice the difference.
Add in 3 separate requests to "not distribute" as a tempting goad to the leaker, and the odds are that MS has solved their problem with that person.
Unless The Register sliced up the email themselves....
Unless you're simply trolling, my (somewhat reasoned) guess is you work for one of the dozens of public relations companies that Microsoft employs to write this kind of crap and post it to discussion groups. I may be wrong, however. You may be working directly for Microsoft instead.
If you are posting as part of your job assignment, and are being paid either directly or indirectly by Microsoft, then your post is a paid commercial message, and probably should be blocked as SPAM.
unfortunately the linux community does not like harsh medicine. even if it is laced with trolls, people should read this.
This is waaaaay too intentionally worded. "Bad apples" "I'm tracking this" -- Can YOU say FUD? Even on his own people?
"Used to use Exchange" -- Horrors, does this mean than he uses a REAL email server, like Qmail/postfix/sendmail, now?
Allow me to go off the deep end here. Here it is, the New Years Party Document(s). Convince me the thinking here was not clouded by a hangover.
Dateline Redmond, 2002. MS has convinced themselves and some poor deluded fools that they are relevant in mission critical computing!
This document, assuming that it contains any actual instructions from MS upper to assist new sales, assumes one thing: That the contacts the sales staff have know anything about whats happening at the grass roots of a large organization. Stop and think about that for a sec. Do YOU tell your CEO that you used linux to build an mp3 server? Do you tell the CEO that you used linux to make a print server, or your email gateway? Why would you? They don't Care. They just want it to work.
-- Perl Hack, Web Hack, SQL Hack, Guitar Hack
doubtless, this is the title that's going through rational people's minds.
/., i expect better of you - stop trying so hard.
not that MS can't be discredited in various other ways, but this story reeks of grasping for straws.
besides - the register? *shakes head*
come off it and get with it.
i'm amazed that i survived - an airbag saved my life.
What's next, the Groundhog Memo?
The Thanksgiving letter?
Inquiring minds want to know! :-)
But it's to be expected from MS. It sounds like they are performing illegally with their Linux Insiders, but the email was short on details of who those people actually are, so we can't make any accusations. The main point of us all knowing about this is so we keep pressure on the justice department to go after these guys. Business has never been a perfect enterprise, but the legal system has at least attempted to make things right in the past, they need to step it up right now and do something about Microsoft.
On a related note, something I find funny is the propoganda retailers are using to push PCs and XP. I was PC shopping with my Mom over the holidays and had a nice little chuckle when one of the teenage haxor wannabe pimple faced sales reps said to my Mom "well, you should buy a PC with Windows XP, not ME, because within a year everything will be XP and you won't be able to use the computer without it." That's great... I mean it really, really is. I laugh every time I think about it. But anyway, the point is this kind of propoganda is to be expected, and you hate to see it in the business to business world, but it's old news, just think about car mechanics...
~ now you know
And if the mail contains copyrighted songlyrics - well just wait and see what is in store from the following years Exchange..
http://fsfeurope.org/
In summary, the email is encouraging the sales team to try and sell more products. Big deal. That's what all companies do. There's nothing really new or ground-breaking here. The IT world gets so excited about 'leaked' emails like this because they're the only leaks they see. It's because they're leaked on purpose! Give the world a harmless leak and they're happy and won't go looking for anything that's actually important. This is just smoke screen tactics.
Jesus, I almost went 2 weeks without a good MS bashing, but /. has quenched my thirst again. Yay!
If it is just an internal database, seems a little strange to start a "Linux insiders" group, unaccessable to anyone in the Linux community. Unless, of course, the idea is show a client what looks like a public web page, filled with the "real facts" on Linux.
Okay I will admit to reading this in a Tom Clancy book, but the best way to leaks is to make sure that every version of the document has suitable differences.
In the examples given by Tom Clancy only the summary sections were different on the basis that Journalists were more likely to quote these than the dense text,
having programmed in VB for the last 8 years doing kernel level programming
:)
Now I understand why Windows sucks.
I think you're right; it was used as a scare tactic towards the clueless non-tech people who don't necessarily have the technical background to filter out the hype from the truth.
Back to my original point, I still think it's a hoax. Maybe it's just my cynicism shining through, but I can't believe that Microsoft is really focusing that much attention on Linux. The hype surrounding Linux in the media has died down, Linux companies are going Chapter 11 left and right... Unless the Xbox is more of a flop than I anticipated, I can't believe Microsoft is that concerned with Linux. I could be wrong, though...
What's the big deal with this email, even if it is from Microsoft? So they are priming their sales force to make arguments for their product...um isn't that what sales and marketing departments do? There was nothing in this email that was really shocking or surprising in any way whatsoever. They are preparing pro-Microsoft sales materials- um, duh. They are trying to find out if they have competitors running on their customer's systems- um, duh.
And they must know that there's not much they can really do about Linux anyways- there's no one company they can just buy out and the people that are using it tend to be 'in the know' already and won't be fooled by MS ad material.
Always consider that leak is intentional, and that you have been specifically targeted as part of a disinformation campaign. Ask yourself what purposes might exist in getting you to buy into the message. Be skeptical, it pays off. My own impression is that this message was too convenient and is attempting to convince me to underestimate Microsoft, or to misdirect me away from where their real efforts are. Just look at the opening lines - it's practically _begging_ to be "leaked". Of course, that's just my opinion...
Windows/MS bad/evil/not right==Insightful commentary
Linux Bad==FUD
When I got to the part that mentioned it, I couldn't help picturing the Microsoft "Escalation Team" as a SWAT-like commando unit wielding AK-47s. Course, maybe it is...
I know you're a troll, and just waiting for bites, and since I'm in a sporting mood, I'd like for you to send me an e-mail (baberg.at.mps.ohio-state.edu), from your Microsoft account at work, with some kind of obscure message. It doesn't matter what's in the message. I just want to receive a valid message from a microsoft.com account. THEN I will believe you.
Thanks, troll, you gave me a reason to live this afternoon.
It's clearly a fake, and a clever one at that. You want reasons? Alright.
It is setup with a "man I hope this doesn't get leaked again" and ends with a mindless left-field "I used to run Exchange so don't leak this or...else!" intended to fool the reader into believing it was truely internal.
The purpose of the memo by the AUTHOR is to grab the reader with a flashy idea (MS memo leaked!) and then promote Linux from within. Read the center sections, they're an ad for Linux. Very clever, really. This gets the Linux community more press than if they just released an ad themselves.
The supposed "MS author" tells his employees how to ask about Linux, further giving examples of how and where Linux would be useful.
Just a prank intended to serve as promotion. Kudos to the author, but don't be fooled into thinking this is actual MS material.
------
Today's Top Deals
Well... yes, actually....
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
But my pink unicorn has been feeling poorly the last few days...his pink horn is almost blue ... anyone else seen this?
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
The message threatens that the guy can track the propogation of this message. If I were an MS worker, I would be pretty pissed if this feature were enabled on my email servers. Of course, plain old cut and paste and encryption can help you in this regard.
if you see some strange servers you don't what they are doing
That sentence makes no sense. Take an english class you fscking moron.
Are you kidding? We are 1337 Lunix Kommunity; our many eyes and unbelievably large wangs cannot be deceived. If something like this had been real, there would be absolutely no chance at all that it was meant to end up on the FrontPage of Slashdot.
It seems as though many businesses would be interested in protecting their internal information in this manner, which might turn out to be a selling point of this "Trusted OS".
Aaron
WINDOWZ RULES!!1!!
LINUX IS SUCK ILL BITE YER BALLZ OFF!!1!
IT USED TO BE K00l TO BE LINUX HACKERZ NOW WINDOWZ HACKERZ HACK THA PLANET!!1!!
VB IS EAZY PROGRAM. AND XP NEVER EV3R CRASHES!!
B1FF OWNS J00
YEAH! Tell 'm !!!
When are they going to get that domain name problem fixed?
Zodiac Survey
The opposite of disgruntled is engruntled.
Carry on.
Virg
First off, if you think that the copy of XP that came bundled with your new system is "free" you are an idiot. The OEM paid MS a significant amount of money (the exact amount is never disclosed, but believed to be in the $100-$200 range) and it's passed on to the consumer. Same as the cost of the hard disks, memory, CD or DVD drive, etc.
But on the main point, your $500 retail copy of XP-server gives you the right to set up a server. But not to use it - that requires a client license. For every service. You want a database? Again, you need a license - and MSSQL is expensive. Plus client licenses. Ditto upgrades to the back office (exchange), IIS, etc.
I haven't seen price comparisons for XP vs. Linux, but I seem to recall that a Win2K server set up for a reasonably sized workgroup would cost $100k and up by the time you had all necessary licenses. In contrast, that $3000 HP charges for their distribution (which includes their own proprietary tools) is pretty cheap.
P.S., maybe you can find a NT MCSE who doesn't drool, but other studies have shown that you better have one MCSE for every 5 users or so. Your 100-person workgroup will need 20 MCSEs to keep it working. In contrast, the average load on Unix sysadmins in 20- to 100- users per admin (depending on the shop) - you'll need 2-5 unix admins to support the same workgroup. (You need at least 2 to cover vacations, illness, etc.)
Assuming each person costs $150k/year (salary, benefits, overhead), the unix shop costs $300k-750k to support. The Windows shop will cost $3 million to support.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Actually you can. All the company e-mail is on Exchange Servers, and so anybody within the company forwarding it would be using those servers, and the admins can see it.
/* Yoda Voice */
It's for this very reason that I doubt that Brian Valentine would be stupid enough to warn whoever was going to leak this email to NOT forward it.
So now even if the leaker was going to simply forward it from their @microsoft email account, he/she now knows to either cut and paste it into some web based email instead or even copy it to a floppy and mail it from some off-Microsoft-campus site instead.
<conspiracy-theory>
This could just be a plot like all those vapor-ware announcements from years past to make the UNIX and Linux folk chase after phantoms in the wind while MSFT executes it's real plans after having led their competitors on a wild goose chase.
yodav("Machiavellian indeed, that would be");
</conspiracy-theory>
Well, given the history of various MS email leaks, I am inclined to believe it. It is completely plausable that MS would be focused on Linux on the server side. Read the email - that is how marketing/sales thinks. That is the message that all salesmen are told - find out what your customers need, protect your turf, and here is how to discredit your competitors.
No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
Where did you get these numbers? My company has just under 700 employees in several locations around NY, NJ, Penn, and Mass. We have 7 help desk people, 3 NT admins, 2 database admins and 2 wan admins for networking and firewall. And we seem to have a lot of spare time in our mostly windows network.
Integration by parts.
Duh.
The enemies of Democracy are
the right way to track forwards is to dummy up the distribution list and actually send everybody an ever-so-slightly-different version of the document. People could discuss and and compare notes and share opinions never knowing that if they forward a copy and it gets published that it'll be identifiable as the one they got.
... new TSP role-based database ...
I don't know about Windows, but TSP is good for cleaning walls.
Mmmm... TSP.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/valentine/ default.asp
have anyone else noticed that everytime their's an important step in the lawsuit, a leaked document shows up?
That damn troll's so old, it's starting to get gamey. And yet, it always reels in a few bites every time it is posted!!!
Your rewarding of this sort of lame trolling is only going to hurt the overall quality of the troll gene-pool.
This is the Outlook virus of trolls. Please don't encourage such knavishness!
DEMAND  QUALITY  TROLLS,  NOW!!
that this is a really handy way to say, "Gee, DOJ as you can surely see by this leaked email, we really do have competition. And if Linux has us shaking in our boots and worrying about market share then how can you call us a monopoly."
/. and creates such a buzz. Why do we give MS credence? Are we really such suckers?
If it's real (doubtful), the crafting of that letter seems totally geared towards something more than rallying troops. After all, they're a monopoly what do they need to rally against?
Me thinks MS is using Linux as a stooge to give credence to their lies to the DOJ and states.
I say take the Beos route and steal MS' wind from their sails: "No, DOJ, Linux is a niche OS only. We were never competion to MS. They must be lying to you."
One thing is for sure... if this email is from some MS drone then they must shit themselves laughing when it shows up on
The code can be found in the names windows used for it products:
Windows CE
Windows ME
Windows NT
CE ME NT
CEMENT
Kind of explains why your applications feel like they are moving through wet cement.
http://www.kubuntu.org/
It's pretty obvious that this letter, if it is real, was very obviously intended to leaked as part of the FUD campaign. If you think it wasn't then you are the fodder they are looking for.
It's also a Grand and Glorious Day that has arrived. Yes, The Year of Our Lord, 2002 AD will very likely be the day where the second dirivative of the Linux movement has gone totally positive and is (very likely by the end of 2002) the firse dirivative into a positive movement againt the MSFT inertia!!!
And as for Windows being easier to use and dumber people can use Windows... Let Them! I would not want to attempt to run an OS as dumbed down as the home user Windows products. This is a good thing!
Did you notice the URL's in the middle there? I think it's pretty funny that they have a directory named "sundown"....
i'll grant you this may be counterfeit.. but even if it's real why are any of you surprised?
when it comes to the server market m$ should be very afraid of linux. if they DIDN'T have internal email like this i'd be concerned for their future..
-j0nah
MS struggles to discredit Linux By Thomas C Greene in Washington Posted: 02/01/2002 at 07:09 GMT
What's cheaper than an OS you can buy outright once and install on every PC in your shop -- and upgrade cost-free for eternity to boot? Why, a slew of cheesy licenses for Microsoft Windows, 'Doze Division VP Brian Valentine claims in his latest cheerleading effort for his sales associates.
That's right; a putatively independent analysis by 'we'll-conclude-anything' whores DH Brown is going to rip Linux a new one and find that Windows is actually cheaper. How Valentine knows this is anyone's guess. Perhaps he has a mole in the Brown organization as good as the one we have in his. Or perhaps MS simply paid for it. We don't know.
It also appears that MS has bought off a number of Linux/Sun 'insiders' whose job it will be to explain to the sales team how to pitch the illusory advantages of Windows to unsuspecting IT managers. "Dumber people can run Windows" is the best advert I personally can come up with, though this is without the benefit of expensive analysts and turncoat 'insiders' to feed me intriguing tidbits.
But let's let Valentine tell it in his own words:
From: Brian Valentine
Sent: Wed 12/26/2001 7:14 PM
To: WW Sales, Marketing & Services Group
Subject: Me again -- Linux updates
Microsoft Confidential -- Do not print, copy or forward this email and do not share this email with anyone out side the company. For internal use only!
Now that the whole world knows we are taking Linux seriously based on the leak of my last email... Wait -- stop there -- since when did they think we weren't taking them serious?!? Did they think we are not going to build the best products possible? Did they think we were going to just be fat, dumb and happy and not continue to win business? Did they think we were going to forget about taking care of our customers??? NO!
Who do they think we are? We have the best d*mn sales force in the world backed by the best engineers in the world -- of course we will take any non-Windows OS serious. The thing about the leak that made me mad was not that we would legitimize Linux, etc. it's good in some places, we are better, and it's not very good in other places and we are much better. but they are a competitor and we will compete. What made me mad was that my friends -- some of you and some of our customer's names where in that email and then available for all to see on the web. That made me mad. I want you selling and supporting our products -- not having to take random calls, emails, etc from the press and others and I know what out customers share with us is in confidence that we will keep it internal. I have no problem any random Linux person sending me hate mail, junk mail, adding my email address to every list server out there, you name it -- that comes with the job, but I don't want my friends to have to deal with the same junk.
Ok, Ok, enough of that. On to some new things we are doing for you around Linux.
Linux is out there in some of your accounts and you may not know it. The ground up nature of how Linux is introduced into our accounts means that we need to modify our traditional approaches of finding out about Linux in our customer base. We have to be more hands on and dig deeper in your accounts!
Many Linux projects in CAS and Depth accounts happen below the IT Manager/BDM level. It's crucial that you get out there with your TSP/SE/MCS folks and do actual walkthroughs in your accounts. Ask open ended questions; find out what they're evaluating for both key projects as well as smaller, more tactical projects. Ask about the 'connector' pieces -- you'll potentially find Linux in these areas. This is a great way to not only find out about Linux, but also other IT projects that may include Novell, Sun, Oracle, and other competitors! If you are struggling with how to do this, then do the simple exercise of walking through you accounts data centers and when you see a Sun or IBM machine, ask what it's used for, if you see some strange servers you don't what they are doing -- ask what is running on them and take notes. I would like to challenge each of you to have these conversations with your customer as soon as you can. Oh -- and you can bet anyplace IBM is talking to your accounts, they are saying Linux and switching to higher end non-pc systems. With the current economic times we are living in, just about every customer is looking into how they can get rid of those over-priced, legacy Unix systems and ride the PC economics wave. We need to be there when they are making these decisions and prove to them the Windows platform is the best platform for them across any aspect of their business.
I want you to know just how seriously we're taking Linux here in Redmond. We're investing major efforts in creating easier processes and resources for you.
I. To start, we have expanded the in-field Linux Competitive Champ program and renamed it "Linux Insiders". Like the other TSP Champs programs, it has been changed to use the new TSP role-based database and will be ready to roll out with its new name at the Envision event in January. It is up to each regional TSP manager to select or assign each member; therefore, anyone wishing to become an Insider should see their manager to be signed up. Much like the support "communities" that define the Linux experience, the FCS team will strive to build a community to cooperate in winning business against Linux. By building a virtual team of field staff and corporate resources, we will enable the field to have one place to go for communication and competitive information. The Linux Insiders will have access to a centralized web site where personnel can request help, route issues, and share best practices that the entire field can leverage. This site, a restricted sub-set of the http://infoweb/linux site, will be accessible by all "Insiders," for items such as SLT reviews, web-casts, notes from conference calls and other sensitive information. If you have questions about the Insiders program, please email Kelly File of the FCS
team at mailto:kellyfi.
II. Second, I'd like to announce the new Linux/UNIX escalation process that is being headed up by [MS Enterprise & Partner Group VP] Charles Stevens' organization. Here's how it works:
a. First, make sure you check out the latest additions to the Web sites: http://infoweb/linux and http://infoweb/sundown.
b. If you can't find what you need there, involve your local expert: the district Linux or Sun Insider (TSPs with Linux and/or Sun competitive responsibilities). These Insiders have the expertise and the resources to help you win. You can find your local Insider on the web sites.
c. If you still need help for Global, Strategic and Major accounts, the Linux/Sun Insiders (or your GM) can escalate the issue to the new corporate Linux/Unix Escalation Team. Let me emphasize that you need to work with your local Insider or your GM because they have direct access to this escalation team. The team is committed to provide an initial response within one working day. These guys have in-depth UNIX industry backgrounds and have been winning against UNIX and Linux. The product development organization will be working closely with this team to make sure you have all the resources you need.
III. Finally, we're working hard to debunk the myths around Linux. We're approaching this in waves.
a. The first wave will attack the perception that Linux is free. To that effect, we'll have an independent analysis commissioned by DH Brown looking at a very popular topic these days -- server consolidation. If you're not seeing this yet, you probably will. IBM is proposing to use Mainframes running many virtual instances of Linux as a low cost server consolidation scenario for file and print, messaging, and database activities. The DH Brown report will be customer ready and will help your customer understand just how competitive Microsoft is in this arena.
b. The second wave will be a full blown cost analysis comparison case study between Linux and Windows in a variety of usage scenarios (web, file and print, etc.) done independently by the analysts for us. ETA for this tool is in May and it will be a great tool to help you sell the value of Windows solutions over Linux. If you have any questions on this study, please email the mailto:lnxteam alias.
You can expect us to turn up the volume on winning against Linux, as well as IBM. There is some great cross team work between PMG, SMG, and CMG marketing groups to ensure we're addressing your needs and believe me, that feedback goes directly to me and the senior leadership team so we can build better products to help you win against Linux!
Thanks,
Brian
Microsoft Confidential -- Do not print, copy or forward this email and do not share this email with anyone out side the company. For internal use only!
PS: I used to run Exchange -- so if you think I am not tracking this message, think again. Don't forward it! And if you have forward rules that have forwarded this message, then perhaps you should think again about forwarding internal email with those rules. I want to give you folks all the information I can in a very open way. If we continue to have bad apples or careless people out there, I will not be able to help you by sending this kind of information!
Related Story
MS promotes Linux from threat to 'the threat'
What they propose to do isn't illegal, but it is somewhat sleazy. The worst case scenario I can see is: people getting fired because they have 'unauthorized' linux boxes on the network at work which are ferreted out by MS sales reps or an audit conducted at their behest.
As to the veracity of the leak, hard to say, but there is generally confirmation one way or the other after some time. The first e-mail from the guy was pretty embarrasing, so I would see why he would be paranoid about further leaks.. Of course, the first one could have been a hoax too..
I find it rather scary that this guy Valentine sounds just like my old Radio Shack district manager. I would have thought that a multi-billion dollar corporation would run their sales department with a little more elegance and subtlety.
Can access the article yet but by the sound of what is written in comments here, if MS have such insiders then two things.
1) Being that Open Source Software doesn't really have an inside to be at, so someone has really pulled the wool over MS.
2) If I'm wrong about #1, then doesn't that mean MS has become infected with the GPL virus?
Hmmm, maybe that's where the faulty computer industry logic is being generated from re: MS.
Yeah.... :-) Whatever is the case, I think The Register should be very, very careful about publishing "leaked" messages unless they are very, very certain it actually comes from the claimed source (like having the VP's PGP sig on it... :-) ). Othervice, they will soon lack any credibility, as you would have to go and check every story they post yourself.
Besides, if they ever would really need to post a story based on an anonymous source or a real leaked memo, which is something very important for the press to be able to do, nobody will believe them after this. I certainly wouldn't.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
Are you staffed by mostly competent technical people? Most places aren't and require far more admin intervention to do even the simplest of technical things.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
Well... that's the nature of the beast, isn't it?
I've been on the inside of stories hitting various web news outlets before. It lead to some discussion amoung my co-workers, but nobody commented in public... even when such forums were available. What I knew could have shed some interesting light on the story... but it could also have cost my job. You never know how management and/or the legal department (not to mention PR) will react.
Because of this, its pretty obvious that verifying a source will be difficult. At best, the reporter breaking the story might have some idea of their source. But in this day of less-than-thorough reporting you can hardly expect this. And even if the reporter could be trusted to do some background checking, their job is likely to be difficult. We've seen plenty of legal action recently that should cause any legitimate insider / whistle-blower to hide their true identity.
Having said all that - I do agree with the overall post. Skepticism is good. We should look at any anonymous source carefully. I remember an April Fools joke from several years ago that took much of this community for a ride simply because the community believed anything put in front of them. But at the same time, we can't immediately dismiss anonymous information simply because of its anonymous nature.
Eh. I don't find this as particularly odd. First, I've seen the "CompanyName Confidential" moniker included in emails from other companies. And the bit about tracking forwards actually rings true. All this "confidential" and "tracking" speak sounds just like the Secret Squirrel games I've seen non-infosec people play. And it works.
The horrid truth is that even within the most technically advanced organizations... there are still a cadre of very technically limited users. And they tend to be found most often within Sales & Marketing roles (I know, I know... that's a broad brush I'm using. Not every individual in sales fits this. But my experince shows the generality tends to hold true).
It does not suprise me such wordings would be found in a legitimate internal memo. It would not suprise me if it was fairly effective. And it certainly wouldn't suprise me if there was an individual with the minimal technical understanding to circumvent these precautions / threats.
While it's not exactly confirmation, it does seem like a very large number of replies to this article are totally pro-microsoft, and seem to be written with a hostile attitude. It's becoming more and more obvious (to me, at least) that Microsoft, or Public Relations firms hired by ms, are preparing pro-microsoft posts for the purpose of damage control or other reasons, and posting them to discussion groups such as Slashdot.
Microsoft has been reported to be employing dozens of PR firms located in several countries to "get the message out" and has handed out at least one pamphlet asking for people to post pro-ms articles to discussion groups.
Using totally made-up numbers, if four people at each of 25 PR firms post 3 pro-ms articles each, Slashdot could be (and sometimes seems to be) peppered with 25x4x3 = 300 effective (it's their business to be effective), highly pro-microsoft posts every time MS says the word. Roughly guessing, it amounts to 100 man-hours for each mini-FUD or damage-control campaign targeted for Slashdot readers. MS can certainly afford it.
Anyone looking to see if all those Linux folk are still zealots w/r/t Linux v. Microsoft would only need to measure the response to a story like this. Do you hear that sucking sound? That's the sound of many fine folks wasting their time and energy on bashing Microsoft, their products, their practices, their religions ...
It doesn't need to be like this, folks. Speak with your wallets, speak with your advice to people who seek out your opinions, speak with your civil rights as a citizen of a free country (whichever country that might be!) Don't buy Microsoft products if they aren't any good or if you have ideological reasons not to (this is always your dime, as people say). If you're asked for your opinion on technology, recommend Open Source products if applicable or products produced by competitors of Microsoft if they are better, or if you have ideological reasons not to recommend Microsoft products. Write your senators, representatives, school board members, and city council members about your opinions. Propose alternatives to Microsoft packaged solutions. Maybe your solution costs less, maybe its more reliable, maybe it just makes the point of not supporting a company found guilty of anticompetitive practices, whatever.
Summing up: who cares what Microsoft thinks of Linux, don't waste your time on fruitless flames, trolls, op-ed, etc. that merely 'sings to the choir'. Do something that counts or don't do anything at all. Perpetuating the opinion of others, that all folks involved with Open Source are anti-Microsoft zealots doesn't gain us favor in areas that might provide some of us Open Source advocates money in the future. Its all about impressions when dealing with conservative (or even just fiscally minded) executives. A sure thing is always going to be better than the latest underground trend.
In reality everything non-trivial is integrated numerically.
Damn...is it that hard to log in to a damn account? They aren't going to fire you if you say in Slashdot that an already-leaked e-mail was true.
Zodiac Survey
It also appears that MS has bought off a number of Linux/Sun 'insiders' whose job it will be to explain to the sales team how to pitch the illusory advantages of Windows to unsuspecting IT managers
Exposing confidential corporation information is a crime the last time I checked.
~ now you know
If he's a knowledgable guy, he knows that tracking the e-mail via Exchange has some serious limitations. Knowing this, why not try to control the problem by making an idle threat? IMHO, he's not necessarily stupid, he just doesn't have any great choices to make here.
Looking at the replys to this post is funny. .25 - .5 billon. Drop in the bucket.
Microsoft and all the big boys play this way.
Some of you make it sound like this is new. NO WAY.
IBM did it for years. HP, Sun, and many others
do the same. Does MS regard Linux as public enemy #1?
Oh yeah. Of course they do. Who else can compete ?
Sun? They sell Big systems and the desktops are Lock-ins. No win there.
Apple? More costly, different platform and they have lost their opportunity.
IBM with OS/2? thats funny.
BSD has somewhat of chance, but MS does not fear it.
They can always do a MS BSD-OS and own it.
HP? They sell more MS than Unix these days. MS owns them.
BE? gone. dead. etc. They will probably win a lawsuit against MS
and MS will pay them
Novell? They are also dead. Just haven't rolled over.
Linux is really the ONLY competition that they have on the same platform (or any platform).
It is much lower cost and the GPL is very scary to MS. If software
keeps coming, then MS will be in trouble. As to the cost,
a fast x-86 can be had for than $500.
MS has every right to be nervous and yes, they will compete in this mannor.
It's ok for Linux-users to discredit Microsoft, because it's the truth, honestly
What a load...
I have no doubt this is real. It doesn't say anything shocking. Who would go through all the trouble of faking this and come up with such a lame text?
If you knew what kind of people make great sales people (the braindead kind who believe their own brochures) you wouldn't be surprised at all about the tone of voice in the mail.
PS I like the part where he says 'we're a sales force backed by engineers'. Very revealing about MS as a company.
This was obviously a fake.
Deep inside Slashdot headquarters......
CmdrTaco: Come on guys this is BS. We needs some
news today. Isn't ANYTHING interesting going on?
Do I have to do EVERYTHING myself???
[CMDRtaco@debianbox] telnet expoitable.sendmailbox.ru
220 exploitable.sendmailbox.ru ESMTP Sendmail 8.6
HELO aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa(250 times)
250 exploitable.sendmailbox.ru Hello debianbox.slashdot.org pleased to meet you
mail from: bvalentine@microsoft.com
250 2.1.0 bvalentine@microsoft.com... Sender ok
rcpt to: news@theregister.co.uk
250 2.1.5 news@theregister.co.uk... Recipient ok
data
354 Enter mail, end with "." on a line by itself
To: WW Sales, Marketing & Services Group
Subject: Me again -- Linux updates
etc...............
Oldest Troll trick in the book.
What do they mean by insiders, it's fucking open source! Anyone who wants to be is an insider, bill gates could be piling thru linux code already looking for security bugs to discredit linux with! which will only further it's development.
If you had ever been around the Marketing/Sales Department of any company of any size, you would know they sales droids get inundated with crap like this every day no matter what their line of business.
The only odd thing about this one was the not so subtle "please distribute this to the world" message.
It's no wonder the Sales guys have to drink them selves to sleep every night. I don't know how they do it anyway. I would be so bad as a salesperson I would fail at handing out free meat samples to wolves.
Companies do it all the time, but when you hire someone who used to work for a competitor for the sole purpose of their ability to expose all of the confidential information about their previous employer, that's illegal.
~ now you know
Unless he has the message "Canary Traped" This is a fairly well known method of determining where documents are being leaked. Your format the message slightly differently in each case, not enough to change the meaning or even enough that a casual reader will catch it, but enough that each document is unique. You might use a : instead of a ; or leave out a comma or period here or there. By comparing the leaked document to your originals you can figure out who the document was sent to, and therefore who leaked the document.
"You can't fight in here! This is the war room" --Dr. Stra
Gees...Netcraft has good studies that prove Apache is on top. Mindcraft is just MS in sheep's clothing.
Zodiac Survey
Even if this email is rubbish, I can understand why it doesn't sound too much crazy to think that it could be written from inside MS.
As for myself, my budget resolution for 2002 is:
"Don't spend a penny on Microsoft products."
I skipped getting XP and XBox in 2001, zapped Win2000 from my laptop a few months back and installed Linux and got a Gamecube for Xmas
It took me a while at work to finally convince my boss that I could do my job on Linux running Forte for Java and Mozilla/Evolution for corporate communication, as well as StarOffice to read and write documents. And things are really smooth from day one. I haven't experienced any slow down and getting support when things don't work the way I want them is way easier and friendlier than buying and reading the MS manuals and books.
If I can do it, I am convinced that other people are going to do it too. And MS will have to write more funny emails like this one for my pleasure to read and laugh about.
PPA, the girl next door.
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
It says: Sent: Wed 12/26/2001 7:14 PM
Which means the poor guy was working late on the day after Christmas. I guess he didn't have any vacation time saved.
Ever dream you could fly? Get up from the Flight Sim. I Fly
Excuse me, but "pulling facts out of your ass" is not an acceptable form of rhetoric. Please come back when you can present a real argument.
What would be the best way for MS to keep 'linux zealots' concentrated on the desktop space while they try to move the industry in a different direction?
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
I know Microsoft is (and has been) trying to discredit Linux, but this just has the feel of a sham.
The opening paragraph (after the warning) makes me think that the writer is saying "...and don't copy this (wink, wink) because we don't want anyone to know what we are planning (nudge, nudge)."
I'm just not convinced that it came from a Microsoft exec.
It's becoming more and more obvious (to me, at least) that Microsoft, or Public Relations firms hired by ms, are preparing pro-microsoft posts for the purpose of damage control or other reasons, and posting them to discussion groups such as Slashdot.
This is perhaps the most paranoid thing I have heard in a long time. The fact that this "pep talk" letter has been labled by some idiot as an attempt to discredit linux is bad enough, but that you think MS has PR firms trying to run damage control over this is absurd.
I read the letter, and what I got from it is that this guy wants his employees to do a better job at managing their accounts. This is not wrong or an attack. It is business. If you were in business selling a product or service, would you stand by idle while company B came along and started trying to sell your customers the same product or service?
If the letter is even legitimate, given the content,the article should have been more appropriately titled "Microsoft taking Linux seriously".
Even if it is totally legit, who the hell cares? I mean, this is a Microsoft sales team. They want to keep their customers from converting any of their systems away from Microsoft systems, or choosing non-Windows systems when they convert their legacy systems. This guy gives very straightforward advise and tools for doing this. Yes, it all sounds a bit brash and slimy - welcome to the world of marketing. It isn't news anymore that Microsoft takes Linux seriously as a threat to its businesses. So could be be spared this leaked dreck? Like I don't have to read enough boring memos at work as it is.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
A quick visit to Yahoo People Search turns up:
Brian Valentine: brianv@microsoft.com
Anyone try getting confirmation from him?
This point has been brought up before: even if the article is real, Microsoft may just want the common perception to be that they are really scared of Linux. If they portray Linux as a true competitor, then maybe they aren't a monopoly.
The masses are the crack whores of religion.
my parents who have no clue what the difference between a bit and a byte is can start rattling off MS Windows deficiencies, but it (will/does/is going to) take full fledge engineers to discover the same in the Unix systems.
.....
Hummmm
-- Knowing too much can get you killed, but knowing who knows too much can make you rich.
Damn, that's a quality troll! I'll nominate you for "Best New Troll" in the 2001 slashdot troll awards. I just hope that your being a machine in 2001 doesn't disqualify you. If so, good luck in 2002!
Way to just pull numbers out of your ass rather than having any kind of real data. But you forgot that the UNIX shop will have $28 million lost productivity due to the employees all bitching on slashdot so the MS solution comes out way ahead.
I thought of that. In fact, that's what I would do if confronted with this situation. Then again, I would not be warning anyone, I would just do it. The only real drawback to this approach is the tedious manual effort that would be needed to make the subtle changes, and then mail out each message individually. To make it look like everyone is getting the message simultaneously, our M$ friend would have to disable his distribution list (so the "To: marketingdroids@microsoft.com" line fails), and then manually BCC each of the recipients so that each gets their unique copy of the message. That's alot of work when you consider how many marketing droids M$ probably has. It's not like M$ has a meaningful scripting language that would help expedite this task!
There is a mailto:lnxteam in there. Send a mail to lnxteam@microsoft.com, see if it bounces. It doesn't necesarily mean the email is real, but it will debunk it if it's not.
I can't believe that you people still bother reading the crap they publish. Everything is about how Microsoft is stealing money from babbies to build a monopoly and is so afraid of Linux. Please people, you're too high on yourselves if you believe that to be true. Wake up, take a look around, and note that a hell of a lot of people use Microsoft products. Are MS products perfect? Not by a long shot. Are they the worst piece of crap created? Well...yes, sometimes. But whatever.
As if the "Microsoft confidential" wasn't tip off that it was fake. -_-
karma is for the weak >)
What about kernel.org? How is that expensive?
What about linuxiso.org? How is that expensive?
What about OSDN itself? How is that expsensive?
I downloaded and installed linux on my server that I built myself, making the OS cost $0. Making my total around $600. Now why would I pay $900 for licenses for a commercial OS, in which the server doesn't even have a monitor for that GUI stuff? That means that the OS would have cost more than the Server itself? How would I loose money? I don't get it.
--------------------------
Is this a sig?
--------------------------
"... disable his distribution list ...then manually BCC each of the recipients..."
:)
Umm, I think his boast about being "head of Exchange" means that he got the technical people available to not have to do that. Assuming this is spiked, I'm sure the delievery info looks totally legit, and he didn't spend all night cutting and pasting. It reads as if he's pretty much daring you to think that you can outsmart him.
As for the scripting language comment -- make up your mind. Either the VBS worm API is a good thing or it isn't
Windows isn't cheap to support, but it's a lot cheaper than those figures. I have 150 users here, and we support them with 5 people (myself and 4 staffers). However, of those 5, 1 does primarily applications support (we have a lot of legacy apps) and runs the 2 NetWare servers, and 1 does mostly database work and development. I run the group and work mainly on security. We really have 2 people specializing in NT administration, and we're just fine that way.
;-)
I'd also estimate the per-person dollar figures to be a lot lower than $150k/person/year. I'd say a figure of $100-$110k for a highly-paid NT person (total, not salary) is still high, but closer to reality. The skilled Unix person is more expensive, but you _will_ often need fewer of them. Total cost for most shops is probably somewhat comparable.
I used to support about 100 Macs pretty easily with 2 people, so that support cost goes even lower...
Also, I don't know exactly what the OEM cost for Windows is, but I believe that it's typically well under $100 in volume (around $50-$60 or so, typically). XP Pro (NT 4 and 2000 Pro, as well) add a little more to the ticket, but most OEMs typically raise the price $100 from what they'd charge for the "home" OS versions for the pro stuff. At least part of that $100 is profit for the vendor.
Retail packages of the server OS usually include 5-25 licenses. But that's still pricey, of course. I can say that our Enterprise license pricing (we're part of a group with a bigger company, so we qualify) is very attractive - it includes the server CAL, desktop Windows (any version), and Office Pro. It almost makes Windows worth using
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
From the leak:
The second wave will be a full blown cost analysis comparison case study between Linux and Windows in a variety of usage scenarios (web, file and print, etc.) done independently by the analysts for us.
Yes, I'm sure it will be completely un-biased.
"And like that
First off it does not have to be written by a brit or anyone at the reg. Some Linux geek from the US could have written it and sent it in.
Also if you are awaire of differences in British and American use of the English language, what makes you think they are not.
I can't beleive you have a 2 for that insightful comment.
Karma is highly overrated.
Sounds like they already knew that the DH Brown study would be positive towards Microsoft.
I want to be alone with the sandwich
Oh, mister 133T H4x0R!!! Oh I bow before your technical prowess!!! Wait up... "VB IS EAZY PROGRAM"?? I guess the "K001" thing here is to be a dumb SKr1PT K1dd13!!!!! "XP NEVER EV3R CRASHES!!"... if that were true, don't you think Mr Gates would be shouting it out? About all he can muster is "...it's a more stable product". LOL! NEXT!!!!!!
you sir, are a troll
Wow, I do not think I have seen such juvenile ramblings come off the desk of any Suit type, ever. The email is in a word, pathetic.
But to look at just one of the arguments(?) listed, if MS has the best engineers (by which I assume they mean software engineers), why is the graphics subsystem slower under 2k than any other OS I dual boot with??
I can say that I came from an envrionment of mostly foriegn (translate Indian) nuclear engineers that barely could figure out their mouse. 1400 of them. Yet, our support staff of 5 desktop techs and 3 network admins were able to keep the *shudder* TK Ring network under NT running just fine. In fact, we held a year long contest to see what was better... we ran a MAC, NT, and Linux server side by side... each was the private project of one of the network admins (only one, one was an MCSE)... the MAC was most stable (OS9), closely followed by the PC... The self professed linux god of the group couldn't keep his Linux box up for more than a month without a reboot or significant problem... the NT box went down only once, while the MAC only burped once and recovered gracefully. Not bad.
In that time (I managed the PC help desk, all tiers), we hands on and remotely managed around 12000 trouble tickets... most were for various software packags from Citrix and HP for interfacing from the MS loaded PCs (50/50 split NT and 98) to a Unix array that tracked employee nuclear data... less than 11% of calls were real MS related trouble calls (9/10ths of the MS calls were User Error, ie... PEBCAC).
I am sorry linux gurus, but I have yet to work in an environment where the fault lay on the MS code... big or small. The admins? You bet, but any group that would think that it needs a 1/100 MCSE ratio and actually pays them is burning money. Most MCSEs are drooling idiots, that much is certain given the lack of patching and updating in terms of security on web connected MS systems (and in Exchange), but there plenty who could smoke any and all Linux "gods" with ease as well. The problm is that there is such a demand due to the popularity and market penetration of MS code that there are quite a few idiots paying a few $K to get MCSE-ed who don't have experience or even know enough to do more than study a Cram Exam and take the tests. Those are the idots, that and the foolish old school I came from a mainframe IT environment 15 years ago managers *gag* who hired them.
Grow up!
If this is real, and off of an Exchange server, where's the warning about not opening Anna Kournikova photo attachments?
Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
Haha.. Then the employees should just copy and paste the tex.... oh wait... 99999999 people above me have already said the same damn thing. I suppose I'll refrain from saying it again.
Don't you see that Score 5? -- the man is a trolling genius! Yes, every Windows shop has 1 tech/5 users and spends $3 Million/100 users. They don't know because they are all 14 and they are just lapping that shit up!
This email is obviously part of a new "anti-linux" virus campaign by Micro$oft.
Pretty soon, all Outlook users will receive an email marked "Microsoft Confidential" sent to them by a freind or colleague with a note of some sort of discrediting comment regarding Linux.
It's a simple War Propaganda tactic, like US troops dropping food onto Afghanistan or the German troops in WWII distributing newspapers to the enemy Russians hailing Hitler.
Another underestimation of MS: Everyone thought MS Outlook was 'vunerable' to email worms, turns out MS just wanted to use the program as another Marketting platform.
Vive le Resistance!
"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake."...Tyler Durden
I've heard a rumour from a fairly reliable source that they've opened up some sort of a special "license compliance task force" office in Dallas with the intention of staging twice-a-year license audits of every business and government office in the entire D/FW metroplex area that has purchased quantities of 100 or more CALs for any of their server products in the past. Apparently they think that the additional revenue generated by "cracking the whip" over all their customers and forcing compliance will justify the cost of running the operation in this regional market.
Could you PLEASE explain this to my boss???
Actually, you look like more of a kid, responding to an obvious troll. Also, most script kiddies use linux. To be honest, the only reason I replied was the fact that I thought it was ironic that someone who is apparently a script kiddie called a troll a script kiddie.
PS: Of my systems, the only ones that have not crashed since I installed them are the FreeBSD and XP boxes...my Linux box has, due to a kernel issue.
Moron.
Oh, HE may know that, but his dumb-ass sales force probably doesn't. Sales people in the software industry are dumb as shit. This Exchange tracking feature is a well-known scare-tactic by bad managers everywhere. (bad managers are managers that don't understand how to manage people through tactics other than negativism and intimidation - they do not understand that the best way to manage is team-building).
I'm sure he knows that a determined leaker is going to leak this mail via copy-paste or some other method. I'm also sure he knows that probably 80% of his people are too stupid to try something like that. He's trying to discourage the casual leakers.
This is the "soul" of the whole "copy-protection" philosophy, isn't it? The same philosophy born in Bill Gates' infamous "letter to software hobbyists" back in ancient times.
-
He has a point about how Microsoft *should* be concerned about Linux as a competitor. I know my company is DEEPLY concerned about our competitor's products, and we are doing everything we can to tit-for-tat make our product better than theirs, without getting into the dreaded "checkbox war". What we are NOT doing is instructing our sales force on strategies for dishonestly slandering our competition. If Microsoft falls onto hard times in the future, this guy will have an excellent chance at building a new career as a used-car salesman. He has all the necessary skills.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
>"MS Struggles to Discredit Linux"
;p
/struggle/ at all; it's not exactly hard to point out the flaws in Windows :)
:p*
> Gee, it's not like the Linux crowd has been trying to do this to Microsoft for the past 10 years or anything.
Ah but the Linux crowd doesn't need to
*Puts on flameproof suit!
..and that's a BIG if...
I especially liked the part about how "we're not sitting around fat dumb and happy... we're building better products and taking care of our customers..."
Really? Gee. I just spent two hours trying to work around a bug in IE 5 that has gone unresolved (according to MS's web site) for almost three years, and that displays graphics in a div element TOTALLY WRONG.
Couldn't work around it, so we're only about 90% right on IE. Who knows what happens on other Win* platforms...
...naturally, Mozilla 0.9.6 nailed it ice-cold perfect, first try...
Last weekend I installed SuSE 7.3 on a machine that used to have Windows. I remember the Win install took the better part of a weekend becuase of one hardware conflict or another. With the SuSE install I went from inserting the install disk to surfing for pron in 30 minutes.
---
Watching Cowboy Bebop in my jammies, eating a bowl of Shreddies.
Gruntle is a real word meaning what you would expect. The usage rate is vanishingly small though.
Excuse me, but "pulling facts out of your ass" is not an acceptable form of rhetoric. Please come back when you can present a real argument.
Sorry, this is slashdot. The only unacceptable form of rhetoric is to actually provide a source for your facts that isn't a link to goats.cx.
Do we need a FAQ for this?
The enemies of Democracy are
The whole "confidential, internal use" blah blah stuff sent up some red flags for me too. The pep talk seemed a little overdone as well. Do corporate execs actually write emails like that? I don't know, I'd expect the higher-ups in Microsoft to be a bit more professional sounding, even in emails. Then again, once the pep talk crap is over it does have a distinct business tone. And if it is real then it's not so much the anti-Linux tone that bothers me. I find the rabidly pro-Windows tone a whole lot worse. This really shouldn't come as a surprise, but they sound less competitive and more genocidal (softwarecidal?). The theme of the letter isn't "Linux is Evil", it's "Destroy Linux anywhere and everywhere you find it!". I don't know. There's just something disturbing about a huge corporation attempting to utterly crush free, open source software.
If you need to interpret my post, then you don't get it.
The email is real. Let's get this straight as all the M$ poseurs who moderate and post daily on /. have already tried to tell us this email from Valentine is a hoax. Just to clue you in, refering to a journalists article as a hoax is slanderous at worst. Not that it has stopped M$ in the past.
/. in the past).
It's well known that M$ has been waging a war against anyone in thier market. An unfair war, the sort that gets you into a courtroom in front of a supreme court judge. They have called Open Source "communist" and a "cancer" on the industry. I kid you not (all reported on
What we have is one of the richest companies on the planet using every weapon at thier disposale to destroy a grassroots, free, and humanistic movement. Open Source. And they do it with the rightious conviction that the IT market belongs to them and no one else. Ever.
Those of you from M$ (or it's PR firm) posting here should do us all a favour and get a real job. A job where you can be proud of who you work with and what you do. Trust me, posting lies for your Corp. isn't one of them.
"What made me mad was that my friends -- some of you and some of our customer's names where in that email and then available for all to see on the web. That made me mad. I want you selling and supporting our products -- not having to take random calls, emails, etc from the press and others and I know what out customers share with us is in confidence that we will keep it internal."
Hahaha, I love this! Not just because it's Microsoft, but because it's a big, evil, authoritarian corporation. The workers have displayed their control of the means of production, which pisses this bigwig off. Now all he can do is spout about it. Our CEO did this after a leak, he tried to evoke sympathy and fear after his e-mails started leaking. It was great. I've come to realize that if a company sucks, the only alternative you have is to quit and join another company that sucks. That's why leaking and this type of sabotage are great - they help break down the authority of companies. Hurrah for leakers!
One MCSE for 5 users?!? $150k/year?!? Coyote-(in)san(e) and his mods should go out and shoot themselves! But first share with the rest of us whatever you're smoking! Have you ever considered a career managing human resources for fortune 500 companies? We'd all love you for that, and be set for life too!
Nice...$150K/year and no work to do...maybe I could convince them that I can do my "job" from home...
You're using her as bait, Master!
I always find it interesting to put a face with the name. This article has a picture that apparently is the Microsoft guy (Brian Valentine, Microsoft senior VP, Windows Division, according to them).
- BJ
Doesn't look as I expected-- does that make it seem more like a hoax?
When are people going to wake up and realise that the register is just like all of the UKs publications.. a tabloid. Why write about the truth when rumour and flat out lies are so much more interesting and lucrative.
-gerbik
that makes me think it actually is real is the following:
"We have the best d*mn sales force in the world backed by the best engineers in the world."
Only a marketroid would think that the salesmen are more important than the engineers.
(the exact amount is never disclosed, but believed to be in the $100-$200 range)
Sure it is. Go to any dealer and ask them how much they charge for an OEM copy (a real one, with a genuine license). It's slightly less than that.
I only speak for me, but I for one am bored with non-stop MS bashing. I mean, I've said it all before. For every new stupid thing that comes out of MS, I've seen and mocked something similar at least a dozen times. That, plus the fact that MS stupidity doesn't affect my life as much now that I'm using Linux exclusively at home and almost exclusively at work, means I'm not as bitter toward MS as I used to be. The mockery came from the bitterness, but now I'm just amused I ever had to deal with it at all. Sure, I still chuckle at headlines where MS does something silly, but I don't feel the same validation I did in the early days (for me '97).
:p
Basically, my whole mood has just settled down over the years. I got it out of my system. I even recognize things that MS has done well on. I'm still not impressed, but I'm not a zealot anymore.
Hm. Is anyone going to believe I'm not a zealot when I say "MS has in fact done some things right, but still sucks"? Well, not being a zealot doesn't mean I don't have opinions.
The enemies of Democracy are
So now your using Mozilla mail, right? I know
pine doesn't run in DOS mode. Hmmm, maybe Eudora.
Command line mail!! Cywin has that? Cool!
The point is, instead of taking a bad product and trying to convince us that it is good, why not spend the time to make a good product?
Imagine also how Microsoft would be perceived if they sold, for example, phonograph records or videotapes. If they started with a baseline compatible player, but then added features to their unit that made their media incompatible with all the other vendors, they would surely face great scrutiny, perhaps greater than what they face now. It seems to me that the fact that this involves "intellectual property" compatibility issues gives them more leeway.
A good product from Microsoft must:
I'd like to see them do a lot more. I'd like to see Gecko used in the next IE (since it's so broken anyway). I'd like to see Apache used as the next IIS (since it's so broken anyway). I'd like to see a sane policy on vulnerability disclosure and patches.
What we have is a bully pushing substandard products. Until this changes, there are many places that thier sales force will never go, in spite of the rhetoric.
LMAO!
"To be honest, the only reason I replied..."
Come on dude, you can't fool me! The reason you replied was in the "P.S." at the bottom, cunningly disguised as a brief thought. You were angry about my comments about VB being a Script Kiddie tool, and that XP not crashing is fantasy.
Script Kiddie? I don't think so, and I'm not going to waffle on about what I can or can't do (as there's no proof). I'm not going to lie as to why I responded to your post either.
And hey, if I like to respond to trolls is that a crime? Anyway, I bet you it ain't a troll... I bet it was you in disugise. Even if it wasn't, you obviously believe the guy is right.
Psychology 101 anybody?
Now why in the hell did this get modded down to flaim bait?
/. are the proof, just like the idiotic replies.
I have seen this before on slashdot (and it's a big reason I don't bother to 'sign up' and get more spam)... retaded.
Not a single answering post can say one thing to refute any comment made in this post... that's because no one here can do it legitimately and with fact. Harsh truth, harsher reality... time for a check in both Linux advocates.
Linux is not ready for primetime desktop use at home or in the work place... given the fratricidical nature of the community that has grown up around this standards revolting and 20 year old OS kernel, it never will either. Site's like
I have done the press and PR thing before people... let me tell you, we DO post in forums that are of importance or have influence (and a wide audience). We don't disparage, especially using the technical knowledge and fluence seen here... it isn't done that way, even on supposedly technically savy sites like this where the audience is supposed to have a modicum of intelligence (at least in the general areas of interest the site promotes and follows).
Grow up... I am anxious to see someone refute any of the post above with actual fact... we all know it just won't happen. All we will see are some trolls, some flames and bashes, and a few half hearted and confused attempts by true *nix geeks to refute this with rhetoric and mis-direction.
Watching and waiting... this should be funny at best... at worst a true indictment of the *nix communities sad nature.
"20 MCSE's to support 100 users" ? What planet are you from ? Why on earth woudl you need so many MCSE's to support so few users ? Where I used to work I was the only MCSE supporting 250 users
DW
I Came, I Saw, I Networked, I ate KFC
Cut... Paste into a telnet session..
What 'trace'?
Granted, not 'technically' a 'forward', but still.
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
and worked well with just a simple install. I install mandrake and it sees every peice of hardware I have and loads the right modules. I can even watch TV on my TV card right out of the box.
Can you tell us specifically what problems you have had and specificially what hardware you have had the problems with?
Or maybe you just work for MS.
Ah, darwinian concepts of reality are harsh. A shame the rabid dog liberal trash that has infected this once great nation insist on supporting the poor and incapable through legislation, law, and taxation.
Well said.
PS: I used to run Exchange -- so if you think I am not tracking this message, think again. Don't forward it! And if you have forward rules that have forwarded this message, then perhaps you should think again about forwarding internal email with those rules. I want to give you folks all the information I can in a very open way. If we continue to have bad apples or careless people out there, I will not be able to help you by sending this kind of information!
-- What stops you from copying and pasting that to a txt file and then using god damn hotmail? Not a very smart man?
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
Here's the way I look at it. I don't see the point in the whole battle of MS vs. Unix. If you are a veteran Unix user, then you know hands-down that it is well better suited than anything Microsoft has as far as a server platform. Microsoft's "touchy-feely-pointy-clicky" idea for a CRITICAL SERVER PLATFORM is absolutely a bad idea, and any sysadmin who tells you MS is better than Unix in this area is totally and completely incompetent. These sorts of people love MS, becuase they can fake like they know how to admin a real network, when all they know how to do is run through a few mouse-clicks, much like a monkey can learn. Are these the types of people you want to hire? People who have no real problem-solution skills (unless it's solving MS bug problems)? If you don't understand the DNS protocol and client-server architecture inside and out, then why the hell would I want to hire you to "easily, simply" point and click your way through the setup? When a real problem with it arises, it's a 4-hour-long phonecall to MS techsupport, as opposed to using one's brain to figure out a simple problem in 5 minutes. I dispise MS Windows networks for these reasons. They are absolutely worthless, and save you no administration time. They, in fact, make things more of a burden. Just my opinion, and I think I am entitled to it since I have both Unix and MS admin experience.. and have been doing Unix for 10 years. Windows is absolutely great for the desktop, especially for game play. Do I think linux will seriously compete with MS on the desktop? Not in the forseable future. "The right tool for the right job"... Windows for desktops (as it was originally intended), and Unix for critical servers (as it was originally intended).
I looks like the VP doesn't know how to prrof read his important emails:
"I know what out customers share with us is in confidence that we will keep it internal."
It's one thing when post a comment, but an official company email?
At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
Obviously all salary and overhead figures will depend on the local market - there will be a huge difference in the price of talent in San Francisco (esp. in 1999 or early 2000) vs. Cleveland.
Likewise support requirements can vary widely depending on the local policies - Mac and Unix overhead is generally less because users can be expected to do some of the work for themselves. If you have knowledgable users - and management that doesn't fear them - you don't need as many MCSEs. If management fears its employees (I remember one shop where they panicked because a friend locked his screen when he went to lunch), you'll need a lot more support staff because they are required for everything.
The key point is unchanged - the salary costs dwarf the costs of the basic software license. Microsoft tends to push the fact that Unix people tend to be more expensive, we counter by pointing out that fewer Unix people are required. Worrying about a few thousand dollars for a license misses the point.
As for server licenses - what do they cost now? Specifically, I remember a friend having to fight a battle over databases - Oracle wanted something close to a quarter million, MSSQL was about half that but required converting servers to NT/W2K and (iirc) there was a lot of uncertainty over the number of CALs required.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Yuck, the grammar in this message is horrible. I can't believe a VP of a multi-billion dollar corporation sent out a business communique with so many grammar mistakes. Did he not take a business writing class in college (or English in high school, for that matter)? If his grammar were any worse I would expect him to write for Slashdot, not Microsoft.
OK, I'm poking fun, sure, but if I owned a multi-billion dollar software company, I wouldn't want such drivel being sent out with my company's logo on it. My grammar is not perfect, but I'm not writing business correspondence. I'm posting on Slashdot, not publishing a message to employees and business partners to make them feel good about working for my company and supporting our products.
--Mythos
Personally, I still can't believe it (as in, it astonishes me) but I would have to accept it. Sorry that I doubted you, but you have to admit that an AC on Slashdot isn't exactly a reputable source :-)
I'm fairly sure the JAVA version of the AIM client is up to date with the newest bells and whistles. So I doubt the AIM Express client is vulnerable. I'd just use that in the mean time.
For the lazy: AIM Express
There is a special feature in Exchange/Outlook that prevents you to copy/paste or modify any mail with the private flag set. I saw this in a customer that uses Exchange and Outlook. It is possible to defeat this restriction, but it's not easy for non-technical users.
MOD THE CHILD UP!
OEM costs for Windows XP and other Microsoft Products are publicly avilable. No matter if you buy 3 OEM licences or 3,000,000 they will never dip less then $100 per computer built for Windows XP Home Edition for more into goto www.microsoft.com/oem
Anonymous source + bad grammar + stupid warning at the end = probably bogus. We'll know when we see the "study".
"Oh, we run exchange so you can't forward it or I'll know!" Does he realise that someone can put the message on a floppy disk, and send it from home?
We're embarking on several initiatives in 2002 to deal with this.
-
The "99.999%" reliability program will be offered competitively to IT shops which use
only Microsoft software.
-
Presentations to Fortune 1000 clients will emphasize the migration path planned
for Windows XP and its successors, which will move consumers away from a
generic Web environment to one that requires
.NET-enabled web sites.
-
We will be introducing a new mail protocol in 2002 which will replace the
present "SMTP" protocol. This protocol will provide authentication of
mail senders (but not encryption of content) and will protect mail servers
from unauthorized use. The client for this mail protocol will be distributed
as an update to Internet Explorer. Initially, users will see no change
as a result of this action. But when ISPs transition to our replacement
for Post Office Protocol, our mail clients
will treat old-format unauthenticated mail as potentially hostile.
In high-security environments, old-format mail will be down-converted
from HTML to plain text, and attachements will be stripped.
Our intellectual property will prevent the cloning of this mail protocol, giving
us control of the worldwide e-mail system within three years.
-
We are working with PC manufacturers to develop firmware which
enforces a secure boot process.
This will prevent the loading of non-signed operating systems.
While any company will potentially be able to obtain permission
to sign an bootable file, we are working with the National Infrastructure
Protection Center to insure that such authority is only available to
U.S. companies able to qualify for Government security clearances.
With these new initiatives, you should have no trouble convincing top IT management that conversion to an all-Microsoft environment is inevitable."The second wave will be a full blown cost analysis comparison case study between Linux and Windows in a variety of usage scenarios (web, file and print, etc.) done independently by the analysts for us. ETA for this tool is in May and it will be a great tool to help you sell the value of Windows solutions over Linux.
So they already know the results of this 'independent' study, huh?
__
Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
Your post is long; I'm sorry ... I'll be brief. My experience is the exact opposite of yours. I've been running Linux on several boxes and NEVER seen a
... well ... I'm very happy with abiword, mozilla browser+mail, and gnumeric. Granted, paint shop pro (about $95) is easier to use than gimp (free); but other than than that I suggest you try getting Redhat 7.2. Linux is prime time on the desk top, baby. Give it a shot!
kernel panic. (I've seen 'em before years ago on
Solaris x86 , but that was years ago on lowest bidder hardware). The expensive Windows boxes we run requires a small army of marginally talented
techies to keep 'em running. They love Microsoft because it keeps them employed, I guess. The truth is, Microsoft is for hobby stuff. Unix (including Linux) is for pros. As far as Linux not ready for the desktop
Anyone ever wonder how many of these M$ defenders are M$ employees directed to do so? mmmmmmmmmm...conspiracy.
Beer, now there's a temporary solution -- Homer Jay S.
The link is to "The Register". Wake up, dummy.
Let's face it, the Bill-as-Borg icon is dated. Here's a recent photo that could be used instead...
You are dreaming on the one MCSE or Tech per 5 users. I have over 80 workstations at my local Business unit with over 100 users, and I support them all, no one else. I am a one man operation. Granted I do have my MCSE, but I just got it a year ago, and would not say I needed it for my job. I just wanted to see the diferences between NT and 2000 and the company picked up the tab. So I better myself and they get to keep me for another year. Then again I also have my MCT and teach Win2K MCSE classes. So maybe I can handle over 100 users by myself.
Jamison Marsala -- Systems Engineer -- MCSE Windows 2000 -- WPMT Fox 43 -- A Tribune Broadcasting Station -- jmarsala@tr
I don't see why this email is interesting, outside of being additional evidence that you can buy the results you want from some consulting companies. The rest of the letter is just sales hype and tips that hold no surprises.
The phrasing sounds very much like Microsoft manager-speak, and the banal content makes it unlikely that it's faked.
Some people are confused by his statement about tracking forwards of the email. Exchange can track forwards within the system (Microsoft's corporate LAN), and the author points out that he used to manage the Exchange group, so he should know. Of course, a mole in Redmond could always cut and paste the email to send it off to the press, but that's not what Mr. Valentine is worried about here. He's mostly worried about *accidental* leakage because people have auto-forwarding rules in Outlook that will spread the email to other MS groups and possibly to outside the LAN (corporate partners, perhaps).
Some readers suggested that the author might have or should have tracked leaks by sending slightly different emails to each recipient. The problem with that is that this mail probably went to hundreds or thousands of people, based on the two Exchange aliases it was mailed to: WW [Worldwide?] Sales, Marketing & Services Group. Think, people.
I have no problem any random Linux person sending me hate mail, junk mail, adding my email address to every list server out there, you name it -- that comes with the job, but I don't want my friends to have to deal with the same junk.
First, you should never trust Hotmail or any other large comercial email provider. Most of them will allow spam and even sell lists of users culled by interest groups to advertisers. I'm even told that some of them force you to look at spam while you are getting your mail and even attach spam to your actual message! No one should span their friends that way.
The best solution is to server your own mail and use the Real Time Blackhole List on your email server. That way, most of the garbage is thrown away. If you use the list on top of a secure and stable OS, the chances of your computer being used as a span cannon by third parties are much less. In this way, you can protect your users and the rest of the world from foul people.
Good Luck, Mr. Valentini! I'm sorry so many people people in your office hate each other and that you do not adequately protect your mail servers. Or was it you that sighned everyone up? Oops, it's evil Linux users that did that, sorry again. I'd never say anything without some kind of proof to back it up. Oh well, Debian and RTBHL will fix things up for you.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
OS 9 was more reliable than everything else? Can I have some of what you are smoking? Especially since it probably wasn't being used for any services.
I setup and run Linux as my primary workstation, a firewall running pptp and a cvs server at work and none of them ever crashes. Ever. They have zero downtime.
My linux laptop, which I daily carry back and forth to work has over 60 days of uptime. The only reason it doesn't have more is that I accidently let it run completely out of power every few months.
I used to work in an all MS shop and would get the daily log of the dozens of servers that had locked up and needed to be manually rebooted everynight. Sad really.
If anyone who worked for me even brought up trying to run any important service on an OS that wasn't truely a multitasking environment(that's >win98 or >MacOS9) I would have just laughed. It was always a sad day for me when I would install a server in the medical department that was running win98. Because I knew that I was going to have nothing but trouble with that box going down all the time.
The media hype surrounding Linux may have died with the various high-profile linux company's stock prices but that doesn't mean Linux has stopped making inroads.
An example of this would be Java. When Sun released it everyone was shouting Java this and Java that and how it would change the world yada yada yada. Sound familiar? Well Java news has been pretty slim in the non-geek world (or at least from what I've seen.) However, Java has been making big inroads into the back-end systems that don't get much media converage. One might assume Java had gone the way of many a dead language without realizing it's at work behind the scenes and growing.
man RTFM
No manual entry for RTFM.
<An important factor in Linux' cost is its
<maintenance. Linux requires a *lot* of
<maintenance, work doable only by the
<relatively few high-paid Linux
<administrators that put themselves - of
<course willingly - at a great place in the
<market. Linux seems to be needing
<maintenance continuously, to keep it from
<breaking down.
You should try and read the howto's before getting to it
<Add to this the cost of loss of data.
<Linux' native file system, EXT2FS, is known
<to lose data like a firehose spouts water
<when the file system isn't unmounted
<properly. Other unix file systems are much
<more tolerant towards unexpected crashes.
<An example is the FreeBSD file system,
<which with soft updates enabled,
<performance-wise blows EXT2FS out of the
<water, and doesn't have the negative
<drawback of extreme data loss in case of a
<system breakdown.
I have seen entire partitions disappear under windoze, not Linux
<blablabla...
<Back to Linux' cost. Factor in also the
<fact that crashes happen much more often on
<Linux than on other unices. On other
<unices, crashes usually are caused by
<external sources like power outages.
<Crashes in Linux are a regular thing, and
<nobody seems to know what causes them,
<internally. Linux advocates try to hide
<this fact by denying crashes ever happen.
<Instead, they have frequent "hardware
<problems".
Nope, no crashes here, and my box is running for months without ever having to reboot (not even after installing services, drivers,
<The steep learning curve compared to about
<any other operating system out there is a
<major factor in Linux' cost. The system is
<a mix of features from all kinds of unices,
<but not one of them is implemented right. A
<Linux user has to live with badly coded
<tools which have low performance, mangle
<data seemingly at random and are not in
<line with their specification. On top of
<that a lot of them spit out the most
<childish and unprofessional messages,
<indicating that they were created by
<14-year olds with too much time, no talent
<and a bad attitude.
Oh-my-god, I just HATE this stupid argument. Ok, I am talking servers here
<I could go on and on and on, but the
<conclusion is clear. Linux is not an option
<for any one who seeks a professional OS
<with high performance, scalability,
<stability, adherence to standards, etc.
Yeah, just keep going , you're actually a bit funny to me.
Lots of SSL servers don't run an e-commerce site but are used for an extranet, or for access to internal webmail...
-------
Warning: Slashdot may contain traces of nuts.
Their like corrupt Ferengi, but the difference is that even Ferengi have rules they play by.
-
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
Nah, they don't know it's me.
I used Bill's machine since he was out trout fishing with Brian that day.
As most of us can agree, this document is not what it claims to be. It is either an attempt to state: "We're the best, and of course we take our competition seriously so our wonderful engineers can continue to make the best products!"
... Our competitors bow to Microsoft's eternal cock of natural disaster!!! ..."
Or
"MS are evil bastards that will stop short of nothing except actually making good software at descent prices to beat the competition."
I am anti-MS, but even if I adust pretty seriously for that, this document oozes of a collaboration between two+ fairly smart (yet nowhere close to brilliant) individuals with a rudimentary knowledge of how minds work. I can envision the dialogue going something like this:
(names are arbitrary (truly))
"Hey Peter,how should we get the readers of our 'leaked' email to understand that we mean business here in Redmond?"
"It's easy, let's pretend we have suffered indignity by their response to the previous email, and then throw in a flaming motivational 'speech' to our sales people."
"Okay" *scribble* "Like this?
*sigh*
"No, we gotta S H O W them that we possess as many positive attributes as possible. That we are good engineers who calmly and rationally make our decisions, that we are top-notch, but also that we are hard workers and that we, too are people."
And the rest is history...
Seriously: Didn't any of you notice how this isn't merely conviently "leaked", but that the whole document is saturated with info and phrasing that shouldn't be there if the memo were not intended to be leaked. If it is a serious memo from MS, it's the dumbest thing since Aerosol cheese. If not, it's fscking brilliant.
PS: I used to run Exchange -- so if you think I am not tracking this message, think again. Don't forward it! And if you have forward rules that have forwarded this message, then perhaps you should think again about forwarding internal email with those rules. I want to give you folks all the information I can in a very open way. If we continue to have bad apples or careless people out there, I will not be able to help you by sending this kind of information!
;-)
He forgot to say: Make sure you only use Copy and Paste or File, Save Message As... to leak this memo to this press.
Are you sure this guy doesn't work for Microsoft's network security???
Beware of sig:
Democracy. Whiskey. Sexy. Pick any two.
Would you pay more attention to "C'mon, guys, lets go out there and try to quickly sell more copies of Windows!" or "Felicitations, salespersons. The agenda for this week consists of the following tasks: selling Windows, spying on customers, and following the Microsoft chain-of-command."? (I know, my grammar isn't that great, either)
The point is that these are not nerds who know how to punctuate their sentences in e-mails. These are ex-football-player-types who are able to convince people to buy Windows, IN PERSON, using common phrases, not through e-mail using technically correct grammar.
ALSO, if I was fat like he is I would have avoided the use of the word fat
OR, if I was fat I would have just been reminded of that fact by my family members over the holidays and would be defensive enough about it to denounce "fatness" to everyone I know. Think about it...
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
If Microsoft were using such methods when making comparisons for their advantage, slashdot would be having a field day!
What is more interesting is the corollary of your point of Mac/Linux users "doing it for themselves". In the Windoze shop, you often have a number of folks who are taking the easy route and putting up the system that everyone else does, just because everyone else does it. Origional thinking this isn't and usually shows in the products. Also, just because its easy to hire folks, doesn't mean you want to hire them. People are the driving force of any and all industries these days. Having a bunch of people that will do the same thing that everyone else does the same way everyone else does it, pretty much guarantees that they will get the results that every one else does. Total medocracy at best.
It seems that knowing the results before the "independant consultant" performs the survey is ... strange.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Id believe the whole thing after the sundown comments. Our inhouse M$ consultant kept going on about how the sundown team would be so happy after we shut down our sun machines.
It seems that he used to run the Exchange software division (or some such). I don't know what his e-mail preference is ... KMail?
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
OMFG, If you need an MCSE for every five people then you have some pretty god damn stupid MCSEs. We have about 35 servers and 400 users, all over the US and there are 4 of us and we had 0% downtime last year. ZERO. Of course we are smart enough to understand clustering things like the DB servers so they exude a death rattle, but maybe that's just because none of us are paper MCSEs. That figure just seems way out of hand, our network runs like a well oil machine and I think have an 80 person IT department would just mess that up/.
-- I am baseball in Minnesota.
Last time I bought a Linux machine, it came with Linux pre-installed. But a CD with Win98 was included. Was it free? Or bundled into the price without my noticing?
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
So they DON'T exude a death rattle. Sorry about that.
-- I am baseball in Minnesota.
Python is a pretty good scripting language, and it could probably manage the e-mail. And it is available on most versions of windows. I don't know about Win2000 or XT, but I assume so.
If Python doesn't suit you (check out the Active State version if Windows specific stuff is where you live), then you could look at Perl or Ruby.
Still, depending on the size of his distribution list he might delegate the job to his secretary rather than get someone to program it.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Kmail? How do you have your preferences set? My copy of Kmail wouldn't autoreply. (The check box, by the way, clearly indicates that choosing to auto-enable HTML is insecure. So I only do it for selected e-mails, and then I uncheck it again.)
P.S.: KMail feature request: A button on the tool bar that will temporarily enable HTML for the current message only.
.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
As was mentioned in The Register article, the amazing and unexpected thing is that he knows what the independant consultants are going to find out before they have conducted their investigation.
I don't know about you, but I find that quite significant. And definite evidence of unethical behavior. Criminal? Possibly not. I wouldn't know as IANAL, but clearly unethical. Suborning expert testimony which is then going to be used as evidence to support lying to their customers. Sounds like fraud to me, but as I said IANAL.
.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
(this is my first ever post)
I have to agree with you on that. I'm an admin at Leiden University and my part of the network, though small with about 100 computers and ~180 users, would cost about $10000 if we would install W2k and Office on just 25 computers (even though we also have an enterprise agreement going for us).
This would be all of our requirements as 75% of our desktops run Linux (who said Linux wasn't ready for the desktop? It's been ready for about 2 years now! And these are non-technical users too!).
We spend about 60% of our time on the 25% Windows computers/users however. So I think I can safely say that both in initial costs and in maintenance Windows is quite a bit more expensive than Linux.
--
Just as valid, you can say that anybody that uses a map is more likely to get lost on road, just because someone that already knows the way doesn't use a map.
No, I think that MS is going to build crappy bugridden software that they can easily sell upgrades to. Windown ME for example. XP for another, Saw an XP box die at CompUSA yesterday, and nobody was touching it!
Did they think we were going to just be fat, dumb and happy and not continue to win business?No I think you you're a monopoly and will use that to win business, in spite of being unreliable.
Since when did we ever thing you believed in taking care of your customers? I think you're idea of taking care of customers is economic cohersion by taking an open standard and extending it, makeing it propriatary, then calling your extension "a necessary improvement". (IE for example)
To fight this battle we need more l\Linux experts out there how can provided things like cost/benifit analysis. We also need adcovacates out there who can sell the business benifits of Linux, beyond the technical model and beyond "Hey dude, its Free".
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Lol, last time i checked this was part of the MS-Network aswell...but of course youre right, technically!! ;-)
Wow, I wonder how many Slashdot readers are too young to know about that movie.
You raise a good point though. It is too easy to look at the world through a single lens. To the Eloi, we must look like monsters. It is too bad a sequel was not made to show what changes were made when the Eloi started working. Also, the Morlocks were caught by surprise with the resistance. If they were more intelligent and had machinery available, would the Eloi escape next time?
Actually, I don't use VB; I did do basic, but I do not like it, so I only do C, C++, and LISP programming. And no, I am not a troll, I just cannot stand when complete idiots think they are clever.
Slashdot: When news breaks, we give you the pieces.
I run both Microsoft (Windows XP) and non-Microsoft (FreeBSD) operating systems here. (Don't get me started with Linux!)
With Microsoft, for $250, I get the operating system and free downloads of any new OS patches as soon as they are availble via "Windows Update."
For FreeBSD, I paid about $50 for a disk, and I have to spend considerable time searching the FreeBSD website for patches (not to mention CERT to see if telnetd has yet another hole!), and installing them.
Microsoft's "Windows Update" feature is MUCH easier to use than any mechanism to update FreeBSD.
When you factor in the cost of getting _support_, Windows may be cheaper. For hobbiests or small companies that don't need to buy support, "Linux" may be a better value.
Oh...and also, XP has not crashed. On a well configured system, it should not. If it pleases you to think otherwise, go ahead. Idiots prefer to do that anyways.
P.S.: XP not crashing does not mean specific applications crashing, which happens on both my XP and Linux boxes (I run a very narrow set of applications on my FreeBSD box.)
Where? I would KILL to get the Equiv of $150K a year for me.... that would be $75,000 a year in my pocket (gross, about $30.00 after taxes.... THAT's A JOKE PEOPLE)
Most admins are paid $40-$50K and a benefits package that is about 60% of that amount.
your price per admin is insanely high. that amount would be for a manager. Oh and California salaries are not realistic... the other 95% of the country doesnt overpay and overcharge.)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I don't feel this deserves to be moded as "Flamebait". He odviously is making some unfounded claims but he does make some interesting founded claims. Also if this was reversed and was anti-windows then you wouldn't say anything. Plus i doubt this being a plant. He is defending other *nix.
Whose idea was it to put Windows servers on the net in the first place, anyway?
Either MS has something brewing, or they're incredibly stupid. The message sounds like something out of a Dilbert book.
Mindcraft Study. They were caught red-handed once and I don't see why they would not try again. In fact:
"The Red Hat participants left before Mindcraft completed the Phase 3 tests for Windows NT Server in order to make a flight home. PC Week did oversee these tests."
Since Red Hat isn't around, NT4 Server results can be bumped up a little bit, while keeping Red Hat's results constant to show they match with Red Hat's official results. That's one situation. If a 'reputable' company like Mindcraft can be made to bias, why not a small magazine like PC Week? Of course nobody can say for sure, but I think there's something fishy, as with anything involving Microsoft. To end:
"The information in this publication is subject to change without notice."
How about taking a digital picture of the screen and handing the image off to Optical Character Recognition Software? Seems to me it's impossible to make a system secure from a sufficiently motivated and technically savy user, and still have that system be useful for doing real work.
Agreed. He's a moron.
What the hell, this is worth losing 2 points of karma over.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
Just my $.02 - this guy wouldn't have made it through college english. I may well be begging for an onslaught of "you're being picky", but his grammar is horrible. This can't be for real ... but, wait ... no, I understand now - he used Word to grammar/spell check his e-mail!
Ah ... the dawning light of understanding. ;)
Wow, maybe that means somebody received a version in which VP Brian realized that "serious" doesn't function as an adverb without the "ly".
Man, Those wacky Microsoft guys and their talk about they have the "best" engineers in the world just makes me laugh. I just hope that when I post this no XP holes are found and violated in my system.
What if the mole is not an addressee? True, it would get them one step closer to the mole, but if I were aiming to do this kind of leaking, I'd be passively network-sniffing and shoving the encoded and disguised emails out to a binary newsgroup or something else I can grab it from anonymously.
Brian's probably not even wondering what this busy little process on his laptop called NetBus.DLL is for.
OTOH, given Microsoft's typical security competency levels, one of the addressees is probably a channel partner called leaks@theregister.co.uk...
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I work for Microsoft in one of the sales divisions - this memo arrived in my inbox today.
MS Suit: and this box over here, what's it running?
Joe, IT Manager: It's a debian box I built out of spares, and it basically runs everything. File services, web, FTP, mail, database, legacy apps, a few instant messengers, name service, firewall, proxy, virus filter, the lot. I haven't had it off-line in the last year. The other boxes are there to make the server room look good and keep the managers and accountants happy. I think some of them run game servers.
MS Suit: Could you repeat that, please? I can't write that fast. What's in an `F' teepee? And you reckon it's poxy? Why's that?
Joe (rolling eyes): We are out of touch.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Only twice! Dear me, a recent WildList (208 qualifying, 695 total) still mentions the ancient KaK worm as current! The same mistakes have been made thousands of times by Microsoft. Why was CodeRed II called CodeRed II?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
From one of our production Sun boxes...
[loki@www9~]$uptime
4:50pm up 416 day(s), 17:23, 1 user load average: 0.93, 0.87, 0.81
And from a Linux box.......
[loki@ns2~]$uptime
4:53pm up 384 day(s), 06:14, 1 user load average: 0.05, 0.09, 0.12
"Linux sucks!"
"FBI warns of security vulnerabilities in Windows XP."
Thank you sir, would you like another?
Heh. The simple fact is that Microsoft is no longer relevant. Now, I understand, you'll start insisting they're still a near-monopoly, that 'everyone' uses Microsoft products.
Yet, they're no longer relevant. People use Linux and other operating systems.
And the people who use Microsoft products really don't care that they're Microsoft, they're just using what came with their computer.
This is what annoys the Microsoft Heads the most - that they're not important. That people can't be impressed any longer by simply uttering the name, "Microsoft".
They are a dying species. We should let them pass.
The scariest thing about this purported Valentine email is the depressing level of ignorance it reveals about the author. If this is NOT a hoax, and actually represents the sort of intelligence that reigns at the highest levels of Microsoft, the company ought to be out of business any day now.
I hope you catch this, but a story in one of the more recent issues of Analog Science Fiction & Fact did just that. If it is not available online, I can try to OCR it for you. My email addy is in my user info.
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
"But Microsoft is not alone in this; almost all software companies do the same thing to the users. If other companies manage to dominate fewer users than Microsoft, that is not for lack of trying."
Fascist.
And it's not GNU/Linux.
It's Linux. Just Linux.
I have programmed in VB ... does that make me a Linux expert too?
blah blah blah blah? blah blah blah! blah blah blah blah?!
My favorite quote from the article: "Many Linux projects in CAS and Depth accounts happen below the IT Manager/BDM level."
Back in the early days of Apache, I was one of those guys who deployed a "stealth" Linux box as a web server because nobody wanted to spend money on a concept that only a few people understood. "What is this web server and why do we need one?". A tough sell if you don't have anything to demonstrate. Corporate use of Linux got a big push from the "unbudgeted mandate" -- the need to provide specialized services in the absense of funding.
Today, I am an IT Manager, and I choose Linux by default unless I am unavoidably locked into M$ compatibility. In my experience, M$ products have proven to be costly, unreliable, and unsecure. I have Linux boxes in the US, Europe, and Asia. For the time being M$ rules the desktop, but that may change eventually. To me, Mr. Valentine's view of the world is somehow stuck in 1993.
Considering we all agree that if the memo is real, it's lame. Considering that some /. readers actually are 'dows partisans. Considering that the best war game is one where you give your best talent to playing the enemy. What would one of us who sees the obviousness of Linux's quick victory (prediction: in less than 6 months it will present an unqualifiedly superior desktop/workstation alternative - okay, this is probably wrong, but the improbable happens often) ... um, what would a good war-gaming Linux partisan do to play the Microsoft hand? What would the 'soft propoganda statement be if ESR sold out for, say, the value his VA stock once had?
No shit, I'd really like to see the best case, the one Microsoft's own brilliant idiots are too blindered to see. It's the best prep for our victory.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
I buy every loki game, even if it's not my type or sucks. and I make sure that I buy linux distros. in fact I gave away 4 copies of SuSE this christmas. with a card that gave the reciever of the gift 10 hours of my time as technical help.
Excellent! I've often wanted to make donations to Open Source projects as well, but they all seem only to take PayPal, a company I will NOT deal with under ANY circumstances.
so I'm also voting with my time. of the 4, 3 installed it, 2 use is regulary, and 1 has asked me how they can use their windows hard drive space for linux.... that person will be a total convert to the linux side within 30 days. and the one that hasn't installed it yet.... I'm waiting for them to aske me to install it for them...I was there for the other 3, but I made them do it and their response was, "wow that wasn't too bad"
This is absolutely fantastic. Have any of them asked you 'How do I open word documents/excel spreadsheets?' ? That's the only question I couldn't really answer, everything else is easy under KDE. And yesterday I took my first look at the 'liquid' theme from Mosfet and it is DELICIOUS! It certainly beats the crap out of the MS desktop.
Now to find three suitable candidates to introduce to the delights of Linux/KDE
>>
I am the director, and this is my movie
Doesn't that just explain why Linux isn't hitting the desktop? You can be pretty dumb and still get around in today's desktop environments, but as long as this attitude is widespread, a large majority of the population (the dumb ones) will have a hard time enjoying (or even hearing about)the benefits of Linux.
--
Quantization noise killed the cat
"We have the best d*mn sales force in the world backed by the best engineers in the world
note the order.
Go ahead and mod me up. I dare you!
what a crock of shit. Linux will only be credible if we stop bad mouthing MS. Until then they're just going to look at us like a bunch of little upset school boys who isnt the most popular in the class.
Cut, pasted and forwarded from a Hotmail account, the text of the email is indistinguishable from anyone's hoax-of-the-day and is useless to a news organisation. In order to be interesting, it needs to preserve the Microsoft headers and arrive from the microsoft domain.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
It might be a good idea to proudly fly a few windows flag stickers on your beige linux boxen at work if you are worried about sales dorks trying to replace them.
Uhmmm I manage 40 or so users on a mixed NT/*nix network by myself.
Incidentally, you can configure samba to lie about who it is. Win95, nt4 server. whatever you'd like.
Stop the brainwash
So anyone who is going to leak something, take notice: at the very least, reformat the message (in MS Word!), run it through a punctuation checker. Or retype it entirely from a printed copy (and say it's a retyped transcribed version to be honest).
Of course he could vary a word randomly and track it this way too.
and Microsoft's targets are all non-M$ servers. But they'll have a hard time convincing all but the most naive IT executives with a commissioned "independent" study. I don't know about Sun or HP, but IBM has actual case studies for various industries to back up their sales presentations. And IBM will do an onsite competitive analysis using your actual and projected costs, comparing their offerings against your current environment and the costs of competing vendors. Microsoft better pack a lunch.
However, M$ will still be able to buy some business somehow. I can hear the CTO office conversations now....
"So Mr/Ms M$ sales-droid, why do you think Microsoft offers lower Total Cost of Ownership - that's what TCO means right?
"Well, our higher licensing costs include support that Linux doesn't offer. There is no one firm responsible for Linux - but Microsoft is there for you with support."
"I can buy Linux support for less than your licenses cost.... Why would I want to pay you more for bad service? Licensing terms that say you're not responsible for anything bad that happens to us by using your software, no way no how, never? Support that costs EXTRA, over and above licensing? Tier 1 tech support that needs help getting dressed in the morning? Added charges for Tier 2/3 support? And NOT TO MENTION most of our problems are caused by your own sloppy code, insecure defaults, arcane proprietary system internals, file format incompatibilities! Where is my credit for all these costs?"
"Er, Microsoft makes the best software; everyone uses this."
"Yes, everyone in our offices surfs the 'net, downloads porn and music files, and wastes time chatting online - all well enabled by your promiscuous everything-enabled Windows! And I have a dozen MSCE-papered dweebs running around fixing peoples' self-disabled capabilities to do that instead of work! I can replace that dozen MSCEs with just 2 or 3 Linux people tomorrow. What does that do for your TCO calculations, huh? Do you have any real answer to Linux? I'm very interested."
"Well, we do have some er, confidential partnership offers."
"Is this where you offer me a rather... personal incentive?"
"Um, why yes, now that you mention it. Do you have a non-US bank account by any chance?"
"(Sliding paper over the desk). Well, harumph, having dealt with all my considerations, on balance it's Microsoft here."
What I found interesting was the advice on finding out what customers are doing. A sales rep who's doing his job properly should have already negotiated walkabouts in machine rooms, and should have a relationship with his customers such that he knows what's there, and doesn't need to go trawling.
But the interest in odd little boxes doing specific jobs is Microsoft seeing their enemy absolutely spot on. Hell, in a previous job I put in an "experimental" DHCP server running RedHat 5.0 on a redundant 486, and two years later there were 1,000 users left dangling one morning because of a power loss - the first time its use impinged on the users. This sort of "cupboardware" frightens Microsoft, because it is cheap, effective and hassle free, and they don't want the guys further up the management tree to get the idea that anything in IT can be cheap, effective and hassle free.
Dunstan
The last scintilla of doubt just rode out of town
Isn't Double Standard a defacto philosophy for Uncle Sam and his alikes
for daily life to foregin policy?
So what are you complaining?!
---
Com'on, flame me, I am no Uncle Sam and his alikes....
Google grabbed a cache of the DH Brown website, it's available here: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q= cache:http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edhbrown%2Ecom%2Fdhbrown%2 Fcmpt2win%2Ecfm
Hell, why look further than VB-script. It's fully functional for such a simple task, even though the syntax is a bit oldish.
For example, a good reason to have Indrema in every home was to have a Linux box where anyone could tool around and make their own software as well as enjoy & run commercial products.
Microsoft may have taken this thought and applied it to themselves... Wouldn't it be great for them to have a box in each living room running Microsoft products, able to expand in ways other than running games the way Indrema was going to? Perhaps they were shocked by the thought of having a Linux box in each living room doing those very things.
.sig: Open Source, Open Mind
[I will be working on this more in depth later]
Notice the best thing about XP is already in Linux?
Users? Firewall? Services [I can change the OS!]? Themes?
Get your Unix fortune now!
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not American.
I couldn't believe the Ballmer video either.:)
Does anyone remember that Gates/Ballmer spoof video of "Duh Dah Dah Dah" (was it from Yellow or some weird 80's band?) and they pick up a Mac in the car, then they both sniff, and seconds later the Mac is left on the next corner.
They should have Alan Cox and Linus Torvalds driving around with an NT Server in the car doing that. LOL!
Fialar
I for one can see that, contrary what others say, Linux does pose a threat to Microsoft. Not just in price, but in security, connectivity across various systems, etc. What strikes me is the tone that this exec. takes in his confidential email.
To me, competition is Sammy Sosa doing "blind taste tests" of Pepsi vs. Coke, with Pepsi the clear winner. And someone else doing it for Coke 15 years ago. What this exec. is saying is that Microsoft is putting together a team of personnel who's primary responsibility will be to help sales people convert any customers using Linux to a Windows alternative, and make it sound better than Linux.
That is not competition, that is OS genocide. Going in to your customer's data center and weaseling out all the information you can, then coming back with plans for those customers to improve their data centers through Windows. It is sneaky and underhanded. No one from the Linux community went in as a "sales consultant" and determined what systems were better served by Linux than Windows, sysadmins and operators decided that, in their experience, Linux would do the job more effectively and at lower cost. So Microsoft sending in the troops to crush Linux in their customers data centers is not competition, it is all out war. And with no one to defend Linux against the grand sales pitches of MS sales vendors, who's gonna win?
This is how Microsoft competes. It finds out exactly how competitors are beating them in the workplace, and develops turn-key solutions to replace them.
</rant>
"I used to be an agnostic, but now I'm not so sure..."
One has asked that, specific to word documents. I gave them a copy of star-office and they didn't like it and asked if there was any other way of dealing with Microsoft word documents. I said sure. Save the document under word at work as a rtf and anything on the planet can read it.
This user now only saves items as rtf, even when they use Word at work. and they have reported that they even have their boss now using rtf instead of doc for saving... Granted this person works for a company with a mix of pc's and Mac's and I guess I gave them a solution that their IS/IT department couldn't come up with other than buy office for all the macs....
I did mention to them that I can get office 97 to run under wine... we'll see if they want me to do that...
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
It's too easy to locate leaks/moles by sending all workers slightly different versions of same message and then just checking out what version shows up in public forums.
If one is going to leak confidential info, it's illegal and better be prepared for possible consequenses.
Go back to the OED and look up "joke", and then carry on for real.
Virg
This is obviously fake. Check this out:
Now that the whole world knows we are taking Linux seriously based on the leak of my last email... Wait -- stop there -- since when did they think we weren't taking them serious?!? Did they think we are not going to build the best products possible? Did they think we were going to just be fat, dumb and happy and not continue to win business? Did they think we were going to forget about taking care of our customers??? NO!
Who do they think we are? We have the best d*mn sales force in the world backed by the best engineers in the world -- of course we will take any non-Windows OS serious. The thing about the leak that made me mad was not that we would legitimize Linux, etc. it's good in some places, we are better, and it's not very good in other places and we are much better. but they are a competitor and we will compete. What made me mad was that my friends -- some of you and some of our customer's names where in that email and then available for all to see on the web. That made me mad. I want you selling and supporting our products -- not having to take random calls, emails, etc from the press and others and I know what out customers share with us is in confidence that we will keep it internal. I have no problem any random Linux person sending me hate mail, junk mail, adding my email address to every list server out there, you name it -- that comes with the job, but I don't want my friends to have to deal with the same junk.
.
.
.
At the very best, this email was heavily doctored. Why else would the write bother to include this "disclaimer".
This kind of paranoid FUD I'm sure feeds all the anti-MS loonies on Slashdot, but it shouldn't even rate a post.
I wrote a series of essays on alt.religion and alt.philosophy.debate about the existance of God as it applies to the HUP. The thread is, "Does God Necessarrily Have To Be Intelligent?".. I just picked up a few interesting insights while I was there, the pink unicorn line included.
Bowie J. Poag
The person you replied to indicated that the mole may not even be an adressee- if the guy's box has been compromised with netbus or BO2k, etc. then the guy on the controlling end of the backdoor can do just about anything they want, possibly without ever being caught doing it.
It may be the sender's box that's compromised or one of the recipients for this to work, but because it's out in the wild (and assuming it's not a hoax by anyone including MS themselves...) doesn't always mean that the parties violated policy.
Having said this, the likelyhood of the mole being one of the recipients is very high.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Yes, good point, steganography in text could trap a mole.
:)
However, isn't there a Windows worm, though, which sends a randomly selected file to some email address? Aren't there exploits in IE which permit a web server to load arbitrary files from your disk?
Couldn't any of these vectors have leaked the email from any infected machine within microsoft.com? Wouldn't a serious mole be sure to have such a virus installed on his machine? (just in case he was caught)
In matters of industrial espionage, Microsoft's security may be your best final line of defence
"There are four boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order." Ed Howdershelt
I mean, if they're rousting people, perhaps it's time to see who they're cracking the whip over and show them a better way of doing things.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Don't you? Netcraft are the "what's that server running" people.
I'm just saying.
Religion is the opium of the people. Evolution is the opium of scientists.
I was having a good day.
Now I'm sitting at my computer staring into space having nightnares in the daytime.
spoken like someone who pirated their current OS.
Here is my first script in Ruby. As a previous poster suggested, it generates a slightly different version of the same message for each recipient. It's basicely a hack, since I'm still learning, but you should find the core functionality there. The script doesn't do email, but for SMTP, you can easily copy a few lines of code from the "Programming Ruby Book" on p 496 and for POP you can copy the code from p 493. If anyone can correct and simplify my code, please do so. : ) (The electronic version of the book is free to download and it's the only thing I needed to write this little script. http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/ruby/index.html )
- Stephan
# Output starts here.
1001 => joker@mail.com => This made me mad --
1000 => gertrude@mail.com, => This made me mad.
0111 => stan@mail.com, => That got me upset --
0110 => alan@mail.com, => That got me upset.
0101 => jennifer@mail.com, => That got me mad --
0100 => jackie@mail.com, => That got me mad.
0011 => bill@mail.com, => That made me upset --
0010 => jeff@mail.com, => That made me upset.
0001 => john@mail.com, => That made me mad --
- END -
# Ruby Code starts here
class Watermark
def initialize(emailAddresses)
@emailAddresses = emailAddresses
@emailMessage = [ "That ", "made me ", "mad", ". "].reverse
@watermarkKey = [ "This ", "got me ", "upset", " -- " ].reverse
end
def convertToBinaryNumber(employeeNumber)
3.downto(0) do |n| print employeeNumber[n] end
end
def convertToText(employeeNumber)
3.downto(0) do |n| print (if (employeeNumber[n] == 1) then @watermarkKey.at(n) else @emailMessage.at(n) end) end
end
# Here I'm setting 4 flags within the text, each flag represents one binary digit,
# 4 binary digits would only give me 16 unique combinations, so I'd need
# at least 15 binary flags for 32 thousand employees.
def printIndexedEmails
if (@emailAddresses.last != nil) then
employeeNumber = @emailAddresses.length
print "\n "
convertToBinaryNumber(employeeNumber)
print (" => ", @emailAddresses.pop, " => ")
convertToText(employeeNumber)
printIndexedEmails
else
puts (" ", "- END - ", " ")
end
end
end
aWatermark = Watermark.new( %w{ john@mail.com, jeff@mail.com, bill@mail.com, jackie@mail.com, jennifer@mail.com, alan@mail.com, stan@mail.com, gertrude@mail.com, joker@mail.com})
aWatermark.printIndexedEmails
>well, on slashdot, with the atrocious grammar and poor vocabularies
> that most people apparently have, it would not have been at all unusual
> for your post to have been serious.
Point conceded. My apologies if I sounded too snide.
Virg
Parent post is plagiarized from http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/microsoft.html