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Lindows Reviewed
Well, the wait is finally over. Lindows, the system that promises to
bring Windows software to Linux, has finally been released in
sneak-preview form. You can catch a
first
hand review of the system on
NewsForge.
← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)
The state of DVD playback on Linux is not what it is on Windows. Maybe Lindows along with the Linux DirectX equivelant libraries will allow Windows software DVD players to work?
I watch DVDs all the time and find it annoying that Linux doesn't have decent DVD playback. Hmmm maybe I should help write one...
Here's a neat point from the article .exe or .pif screensavers attached -- or even with infected .rpms."
"There's something scary about an imaginary LindowsOS-from-Windows convert, happily running as root, downloading emails with infected
I thought, now people will be complaining about stupid lindows users. But think about it, if everyone was as as smart as most linux users, their windows boxes wouldn't be as fucked up w/virii or whatever from outlook.
Here's my point. It's not the OS it's the user that sucks. If it's user friendly, you get stupider people.
Not only did the installation process not give us the opportunity to add users other than root, it didn't even explain that we *should* add users other than root, didn't tell us that the account was root, and even tended to discourage us from entering the optional security password for root, because, "if you lose this password it cannot be recovered."
Excellent. It sounds like Lindows has taken Linux a giant leap towards the ease-of-use that modern desktop users demand. This might actually be competitive in the marketplace!
Lindows credibility.
_________________
EBAY SAFETY TIPZ!
so this is what m$ ment when they said there was going to be a new commitment to security...
four-oh-four
Windows sucks and Linux is much better. However, we try to emulate Windows as much as possible. Not only that, every time we come a step closer to emulating Windows' functionality (i.e., running Windows apps) it is a good thing and a cause for celebration.
What don't I get?
...why not just use XP or 2K? They run Windows apps better than Lindows, and sure seems just as stable as Linux... Not to mention the better hardware and software support.
Right?
why didn't they just call it Windex? lindows sounds gay.
"trying to run Windows programs in a user account will cause problems."
Wow, even emulating Windows' very own security model...
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
Let's see -- you cannot really be anything other than root, it can be hit by a Window's virus, lots of apps just *poof*,... How will this give Lindows credibility with the Linux crowd?
Running as root.
The article first states that the installation is limited because it doesn't ask you to add users other than root.
Why should it? Being that Windows will let any user do anything... why shouldn't lindows? I know XP has an 'admin' account, but that doesn't do much. Why should this be more secure, it wouldn't be like windows enough for the people.
Seriously, the only thing that XP's admin vs. non-admin users is the ability to add more users and other lame protections. It is a step in the right direction but isn't enough.
Regular users on my system have been able to delete critical files and change some settings. The main thing I noticed is that Red Alert won't let you play as a regular user. Just won't play. I had to give my girl friend a admin account so that it would start up. Kinda defeats the purpose.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Alright, it's a beta, but this seems to me to be the worst of both worlds. You get none of the flexibility and hacker-friendliness of Linux, and your Windows apps are even more unstable than under Windows. Furthermore, you pay $99 when Linux is free and get a UI that looks familiar but undoubtedly has some quirks. Exactly what benefit does this provide over Linux+Wine+fvwm95 except an easy installation process that there's no reason can't be matched by a Linux distro?
It looks like KDE. The article also says that 99% of the programs he tried didn't work. I'm probably going to get bitched out, but I'm still a skeptic.
The other thing, that has already been pointed out, is about the email worms... if you have to run outlook as root, and you get one of those babies... well... *poof*
That said, it looks nice... I'll be impressed when they can demonstrate more stability running windows applications.
But then again, M$ has been trying that for about 2 decades.
Humorless sig goes here.
The Windows operating system is proprietary. If this 'Lindows' is able to run Windows programs, it has illegally reverse-engineered proprietary Windows code.
The single biggest issue I see here *is* that Lindows has you do everything while running as root.
:-/
That is the *stupidest* thing I have ever heard of. Aren't something like *half* of the script kiddie root hacks out there depending on someone being dumb enough to go onto the net while logged in as root?
Also, there was no mention of any kind of firewalling on this setup. I have a linux server running in my home office. I can say from experience that if there is no firewalling (ipchains/iptables) installed, configured and running, that you are *asking* for trouble.
I understand that this is a Linux distro for the Win98 crowd, and that Win98 isn't secure in the least, but I really hope that the Lindows people give the Win98'ers a fighting chance. Otherwise the k33bler pr0n elves are going to be visiting some new Lindows boxes *real* soon....
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
"Windows users who are trying out Lindows won't be concerned about this, though, so if they are the target market for LindowsOS, the "running as root" thing shouldn't be a problem."
Okay, just because Windows 98 doesn't have security, that means Lindows shouldn't either...? All of the NT-based Windows OSes do have the ability to not run users/programs as root. This is a ridiculous step backward for security, and the "just because Windows 9x does it" excuse is poor at best.
If Lindows becomes popular, viruses will abound for that platform. Is this really any better than Windows? Now Linux has lost the main advantages it has over Windows, namely:
-- It's "free" (interpret that as you will)
-- It's more secure.
This is Microsoft's dream come true -- a chance to point out that not only is "Linux" less secure than Windows, but "Linux" is also not free (never mind that Lindows != Linux; Microsoft also has trouble remembering the difference between GPL and open-source.)
The bottom line is that Lindows as it stands today is not a boon to the Linux community, and it could cause a dangerous black eye to those currently promoting Linux on the desktop. Tread carefully.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
I preffer to stay Anonymous (you know - NDA stuff)
/opt/wine-lindows). But - you can move the wine out and play it on Mandrake, SuSE, Redhat or Slackware quite easily ;)
;)
To make long story short - it's based on Debian Woody, it got Xandros (previously Corel) nice file manager, and it got a special version of wine which can install Office 2000 very nicely including Explorer 5.0
You can't install Explorer 5.0 or 5.5 seperated - the process fails after download. You cannot install Windows Media Player 7.1 since it's saying "unsupported OS" and Windows Media 6.4 simply thinks the URL's are wrong.
Running Office 2000 (not 97, not XP) runs pretty nice although there lots of GUI bugs there needs to be fixed.
Biggest shit - it installs and doesn't open users - so all done as root, and even if you open users you won't be able to use the "wine" stuff since it needs root premissions or some serious hacking (it's on
Does it worth the money? yes! I need to run Office 2000 - and that gives me the option to use Office 2000 (and I cannot use other Linux office stuff - need to connect to exchange and just the Ximian exchange connector costs $70 - so $29 more won't kill me).
And since it's a debian woody, then hey - APT heaven is here - give me an hour and the distribution will be totally customized.
Some other stuff - it uses XFS as filesystem, it doesn't install nvidia binary drivers in default (need to do it manually), kernel is 2.4.14 + tons of patches, it tries to load every module on earth and frankly - doing a damn cool job. They'll need to fix the network and priting stuff - it sucks as it is now.
Definately recommended if you're planning to use it in corporations.
Oh, as for who did the wine stuff? lets say it's not transgaming, you know who
MeshMesh
So we know what their secret to running windows apps is: Wine.
What I find unsettling is that this sneak preview states 99% of Windows applications go "poof" on install (which is not very surprising for anyone who has ever used wine). Yet we've seen screenshots showing Internet Explorer on top of KDE.
So another question stands: are those screenshots real?
To my dismay, the reviewer's experience with the preview LindowsOS exactly mirrors what you get with a recent build of WINE. Many applications run, but there are serious problems with installers.
This is not to bash the WINE developers who are making great progress with limited resources. I wish them, and Michael, all the success in the world. I just wish that Michael Robertson would commit some of his development staff to improving the core WINE code and contributing it back to the WINE project.
Shameless plug: Do you need step by step instructions on configuring WINE to run popular Windows applications? Check out my web site, Winecentric
Flamebait? I think you'll find it is the truth.
Quotes :
99% of the Windows executables I attempted to run "poofed"
it is not expected to work properly
I wouldn't spend the $99
ie. It's crap. Don't waste your money
Here's a quote:
So.... let me get this straight... it needs a copy of Windows to run, but still costs $99. And it makes Windows 95 look stable. It is inherently _less_ secure than Win95 was. Even though you still ran as psuedo-root under Win95, you could run AntiVirus software. LindowsOS doesn't have any AV that works.
My favorite quote:
This is a beta and Robertson cautions that it is not expected to work properly
LOL! Beta (as opposed to alpha) is at least supposed to work somewhat properly; it's there to look for bugs. This seems more like "here is LindowsOS, it doesn't work, but we want you to spread some FUD and trick people into thinking it does.
And I don't think that the GNU/Hippies would be too happy about the $99 price tag that includes pretty much all their tools... and that's about it.
... I can send .doc files to RMS? :)
It will be interesting to see if linux users will be willing to spend money on this software, particularly in light of the fate of Loki.
SONY. Because caucasians are just too damn tall.
Ask this question again and again. Ask it to yourself everytime somebody says "Linux on the desktop".
Linux can make it on the desktop, as long as they don't try to be a "me-too" Windowsalike.
Free top-of-the-head ideas for a Linux-based focus:
Linux needs to find its niche (small/medium servers is a good start) and excel there. I can predict that Lindows will soon join Loki on the bench.
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Please, can we forget Windows ? why don't why concentrate on Linux and bring to it whatever is missing from it ? a decent game API, a driver model, a standardized printing engine, lots of drivers, and a decent Office suite. That is all that is needed.
If your a windows user why would you switch to this OS that cant run your windows apps properly - and if your a linux user why would you switch to this OS that doesnt allow you very detailed configuration?
I have yet to see why this is better than using redhat with wine and/or win4lin installed?
Ave Molech Setting
For once an obit on /. that's actually true. It's interesting to see how quickly the police came to the conclusion that it was a suicide. I wonder if Mr. Baxter was going to be testifying at the Congressional hearings. If you want to discuss this without getting modded down, check out K5.
After reading this article. It basically sounds like they are going to take debian, add some KDE skins, tweak the KDE menu and configure WINE so that they have a stable and reliable version that can run as many windows programs as possible.
This sounds basically like the crossover plugin done totally wrong!
There is no reason (technically) that this needs to be a dedicated Linux distribution. The only thing I can think of is that they are doing this for marketing and/or political reasons. I am sure Michael Robertson knows what he is going from a marketing perspective but he is trying to succeed in a technical market.
The one thing that we should learn from this is that it might be time to a dedicated wine-bundle project.
Specifically... Take wine snapshots and QA them and try to get them as stable as possible. This would of course have to be coordinated with the wine project.
This should also include bundling wrappers around Windows programs so that they can be installed easily.
IE you could have a debian package named wine-bundle-ie which would of course install Internet Explorer by downloading it on the client machine similar to the way crossover does it.
This would get you the best of both worlds... Windows apps on a Linux machine and would be an Open Source collaboration.
I try to run 100% Open Source/Free Software but it would be nice to complete invoices for my clients who use Excel.
Kevin
If LindowsOS is a Linux based system that uses Wine to run Windows programs, how is it that Lindows can charge $99 per copy? Linux and Wine are GPL software, and can be distributed freely, so what part of LindowsOS is the part that is worth $99 per copy? I can maybe see $99 for a CD set (after all, programmers need to eat) but shouldn't we be able to make as many copies as we want, just like with other Linux distributions?
However, I'm interested to see how the final release performs. If it runs Windows programs well and if it is also a full (meaning not dumbed down) Linux distribution, I may get a copy to try it out. StarOffice and KOffice are OK, but I'd like to be able to run Microsoft Office too.
I imagine there are a good number of slashdot readers sitting there with their mouths wide open, amazed that this really isn't vaporware. Me included.
The (Hopefully) Great Slashdot Blackout Apr 21-27
Unfortunately, history has told Lindows a bit, but I'm not sure they listened. Hardware compatibility issues aside, IBM OS/2 had a great platform for running windows, unix (with some free software) and os/2 apps all on the same box at the same time. It was awesome, 32 bit pre-emptive multitasking running 16bit windows apps. If an app crashes, just ctrl-esc and kill it. Unfortunately, IBM practically couldn't give it away. It didn't take.
.02
If people want to run windows apps they are going to choose windows. If they do run Lindows, Lindows itself will not be able to keep up with changes microsoft implements just to cost companies like lindows money.
Just my
-Sean
From the preview, it sounds like Lindows tries to be both Linux and Windows at once, but fails on both counts.
...
The newbie user playing around as root (maybe without a password?) is an obvious problem issue, especially if rootage is required for running Windows software in the first place. I need hardly mention that it's a security issue if all those Outlook viriis get to run as root
Also, as most Windows apps seem to be nonworking at the moment, there better be a LOT of improvement in this field before release, or Lindows will be about as popular as a can of BBQ sauce at the three little pigs' house. It needs to run IE, it needs to run Office, and it would be just great if it'd run Windows games (yeah, right).
Btw, an oversimplified install might be just great for the newbies, but not for anyone else. I think the WinXP Pro install was oversimplified, but at least it let me add non-root user accounts and reconfigure hardware if I liked. Besides, I don't think Lindows is going to be used mainly by newbies - at least initially, it's going to be used by people looking to make the switch between Windows and Linux and wanting something that will let them run both kinds of apps, so they needn't convert 300 word DOCs to RTF or suchlike.
Congrats to the Lindows people for building stuff like autodetecting hardware into the installer - that stuff is always nice. Mandrake already has this and does it somewhat well, but I still remember the pain of having to feed Debian the I/O port adress of my CD-ROM back when last I tried to install it. I never did finish that install, as it was never able to find my bog standard Logitech PS/2 mouse. Oh well.
Conclusion: Get Windows apps to run and Lindows will be interesting! Ship it like it is today, and it will end up in the OS trashcan with BeOS et al.
Quality, performance, value; you get only two, and you don't always get to pick.
There is nothing wrong with reverse engineering. Reverse engineering brought us AMD as a competitor to Intel, as well as IBM clones -- it's complicated, as AMD also pays royalties to Intel for other IP. IANAL, but I vaguely recall some federal(?) statutes which actually protect the right to reverse engineer. Any lawyers out here are welcome to correct/elaborate.
Also relevant might be that MS has only filed a trademark infringement suit against Lindows, not a claim of "illegal" reverse engineering, and I think if your post was right, MS would have brought it up a while ago.
b
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
I'm failing to see the value-added synergistic paradigm.
is to have a list of windows applications that are necessary. So compatibility can be focused for these apps. For example: MS Words is a must (imo). real player I.E photoshop DX7 or 8 DVD playback through cyberlink powerdvd Some audio apps, like cakewalk or Cubase VST. That would be a start to convert a BUNCH of people (including me).
I agree, lets look at the facts:
- it runs KDE apps
- it is based on linux
- it runs most unix apps
- it doesn't run 99% of the Windows software out there, including the one BIG application.. Office.
- it has no dev software installed by default
- security is weak by default
hmm, sounds a bit like a crippled version of RH linux?
So the problem is that over-userfriendlyness breeds stupid users? Can't we try to educate the users? If i had several million dollars of venture capital and a one way ticket back in time to when the market boom was still high, here's what i'd do to fix the primary problem with desktop computing:
...
:)
I'd create a linux distro designed to TEACH FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES of computer use to the users... things like coherent file organization, user permissions, networking security... just some basic stuff, as well as how to actually use the linux distro that we (my company) would also spend a lot of time setting up to be more secure by default, and well-configured (read: easy to use, but not masking the actual functionality behind all the pretty widgets) so that not only could it be a quality operating system for experienced users, it would be a perfect stepping-stone for morons who are used to having they're brains spoonfed the babyfood that windows and macos feed them.
The result? A *significant* increase in the relevant education level of computer users exposed
to this operating system.
potential <subjective>positive</subjective> side-affects:
1)decrease in M$ desktop marketshare due to higher level of user-education (once you've used *our* OS you *know* why windows sucks... you've become enlightened enough to see past all they're FUD and marketing hype into the rotten core of the thing)
2)world peace. (oh yea... i'm on a roll now heheh) believe it or not, education is a good thing... teach people more about computers and get them more fascinated in the TECHNOLOGY aspect of the computing, rather than just the pretty colors and the ability to send instant messages to minors across the planet and you've actually awakened more of the thing this world needs the most: intelligent thinkers who make judgements based on integrity and quality and other high-minded concepts that joe-sixpack doesn't want to take the time to try to understand.
3)(ready for this) SECURITY... yes, the internet will become a SAFER PLACE. more people will understand WHY you don't run an exe that comes into your mailbox from a stranter (or often from a co-worker) and why email-hoaxes can't be real and
*soapbox rant*
bah. i don't know, i'm just fucking around with those last two, but seriously though, there are IMPORTANT intellectual concepts that affect not only computing, but LIFESTYLE, that the Linux community has a FAR better grasp of than the "windows community"... and truthfully the ONLY salvation we have from Microsoft taking over the whole world has it's source in simply finding a way to impart this knowlege unto everyone OUTSIDE the linux community that we can, and we're not going to be able to do that by scaring them with our super-intelligent operating system, and we're not going to be able to do that by trying to get the government on our side (we'll get crushed like a kid getting picked on in the schoolyard for telling on a bully) and we're sure as hell not going to do it by sitting on our collective asses and looking down our noses at those who "just don't get it"
the common populace CAN be taught, as long as you present it in an easy-to-consume bright shiny fun-looking semi-affordable package. once you've done that you can teach them anything you want, we just need to pick the right thing to teach them.
*getting off soapbox now*
thanks for your time
Did anybody else notice on the signup page for lindows that it's not available if you live in Washington state?? I'm assuming that has to do something with Microsoft, but not sure what...anybody have any ideas on that??
Microsoft has now put security priority #1 and I don't know what that's worth, but I would bet that they're going to start getting away from running everything as "root" on the latest and greatest MS OS.
Having Lindows log in as root and run everything as root is backwards. At a minimum, create users that have near root access but not EVERYTHING.
It seems like the time spent developing this "piece of art" could be better spent writing documentation and GPL software to manage linux for dummies.
Then there wouldn't even be a need to run Windows software.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
"Business Casual".
Combining unprofessional with unattractive, whilst diminishing neither.
NO TOUCH MONKEY!
So it's basically just a dedicated (crippled?) Debian distro with Wine as its core then, as I take it from reading posts here (not having used Lindows myself)?
Any changes to WINE itself? And if so, are they publically available per the GPL?
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Right there, one of the most important reasons to use Linux is thrown out the window. The only thing we need now is a Linux port of Lookout, err... I mean Outlook, and Melissa / ILOVEYOU / Sircam / whatever will follow.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
It doesn't seem much more effective than Wine, with the exception of a more seamless installation process. Granted, its a beta, and if the problems are more lindows based than api based and can be easily fixed then things might work out better. I love the way it runs all the outlook worms. At least Windows users will feel comfortable in that regard. Now just need to rig up the occasional :)
bluescreen and things will be just peachy.
Part of the issue of running as root is probably for the simplicity of installing programs. While a non-root user can install programs on linux, he can't necessarily do it so its available for the entire system, and as a security issue, you don't want to. The installer might have suid privilages that can get around this problem, but then you risk installing infected files, and once again, working around the very security features that make linux a more secure choice over windows in the first place.
An option would be an installer that installs every program into its own directory structure, and no programs can be installed suid. Each program would need its own registry subset, etc. This would of course cause conflicts with programs such as norton virusscan that expect to be able to search the whole system, and programs that interact with other programs and expect the native insecurity of windows to operate.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
Linux Zealots seem schozophrenic. On the one hand they detest Windows. On the other hand they are furiously trying to turn Linux into a Windows clone.
Can anyone explain this rather absurd phenomenon to me ?
A mathmathician or doctor will call you stupid if you cant handle advanced problems or do brain surgery.
We, are in the computer field which ranks up there, and someone from another field isnt going to be able to handle compiling source code.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
and so just how long will it be before they have a release product? the article says they promise to have it all working by then... just what has lindows discovered that the wine project has not, that gives them such confidence...
i would actually preffer them to make a working version of wine that can be installed on your existing distro... (do we really need another distro?)
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
Attempting to run windows apps on top of another OS is HOPELESS.
You will get NO support from any software vendor for running their windows app on anything other than... tada; Windows.
OS/2 had just about the best windows sub-system ever, but it too had problems running certain windows apps.
No business in its right mind is going to depend on this software. If Linux is to make inroads on the desktop, it will need native desktop applications. Not Java apps, not emulated Windows apps; native desktop applications.
Fortunately it's getting them and some of them are quite good (Star Office is usable, for instance).
And yes, people will pay for them if they are GOOD.
"Neither WindowsME or Windows 98 would install inside LindowsOS on my system."
And it shouldn't! Is the reviewer a total boob?
This isn't a review, it isn't an evaluation. It's just someone who (says) he got ahold of a compy and decided to jerk with it.
Of course on the other hand I'm not to thrilled with the Lindows folks either. Pay to preview (Who else do we know that runs that scam)? Then give my name and information to Microsoft in some sort of legal discovery scam, because I expressed and interest in a vaporware product? Lindows!!! You promised it wouldn't be shared or sold, and then you just hand it over to ''the great satan'' without so much as telling me?!?!
I wouldn't trust this Lindows outfit on an old 286. They've shown who they want to be.
I posted this yesterday since I am a Lindows sucker. Funny thing is unless your name is michael, cmdtaco, Cliff, timothy, hermos or a couple of others, good luck on getting your stuff posted. Slashdot has gotten to stuck-up for it's own good. They don't take everyday-joes posts any more and if the do, they take the post, check it out and call it their post. Slashdot is starting to suck. To bad...
I fear the license wars about to erupt.
314-15-9265
It's because of the court case. According to a recent article on internetnews.com:
"Lindows.com Founder and CEO Robertson said that his firm would provide proof that no business was done in Washington, let alone Redmond, and talked about it in a public statement.
'We're looking forward to showing the Court the widespread use of the term 'windows' or variations thereof by literally hundreds of companies which are not endorsed or sponsored by Microsoft. The fact that Microsoft has chosen not to sue these companies demonstrates their true motivation in this case is to crush competition from a promising new technology which threatens their illegally obtained monopoly,' said Lindows.com CEO, Michael Robertson."
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
I use Linux because I just like it better. I have absolutely no idea why I should try to emulate Windows Software on my computer slowing it down and making it unstable.
Isn't it easier and much more convenient to have a dual-boot system making it possible to run a *real* Windows OS?
I'm not convinced there is a big market for running windows apps on Linux, but if thats what you want to do, VMware is the painless way to do it, and it lets you run other OSs as well, or multiple instances of the same OS on the same machine, and with RAM prices as low as they are, this approach makes a lot of sense, especially if you need to do cross-platform development.
I don't understand how these guys got to this point. Clearly Robertson is connect to some kind of VC funding hose, or he would be working on his second startup in 10 minutes.
But there's next to nothing to this distro:
But clearly what Linux has been waiting for to turn into windows is progress on WINE . When it works, Linux will run the Windows apps the rest of the world uses. Until then, the idea just won't work.
In this situation the straightforward thing to do is to hire first-classes WINE hackers and move the project forward with the force of money. And why Lindows isn't doing this is beyond me. Perhaps some kind of brand-development trick? Unless the VCs have some other tricks up their sleeve, I don't see how anyone's gonna get their money back. Anyone know anything about why Lindows is proceeding this way? Anything tidbits on FC?
Running as root? I did that back in 1989 when I first used Solaris. back then,I didnt know shit. I LEARNED! Root access is a scary thing. LInux needs as little bad press as it can right now. These are very volatile times. Having Lindows users with root access having hte machine blow up is NOT what the Linux movement needs! Please, PLEASE Lindows, try to make root access unavailable! I think if you MUST use root, have it a randomly picked password that only the "system" knows, and su to it automagically when a root function needs to be performed.
Be afraid. Be very afraid. This will be worse than The AOL Christmas years ago.
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
actually i was not specifically refering to people who lack computer skills as "the masses." it's just in this example it pointed that way.
i meant just a general tendency for large groups of people to be more prone to bad judgement. it doesn't matter what "types" of people are involved either...
i think it comes down to basic laziness. in a large groups it's much easier to NOT make a decision and go along with what the next person says. hence it is much easier for a bad idea to propegate this way, as opposed to when everyone is thinking for themselves.
i apologise if my post sounded like a jab at someone technical prowess... that is completly non-intended (especially if you realise that i'm one of the least technically profficient people who might post here)
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
...to be considered "cool" or "1337" on Slashdot.
:)"
.exe attachments. But you, as a smart mail server administrator, already put filters on your server to prevent those attachments from being sent in the first place, right?
:/
"I love the way it runs all the outlook worms. At least Windows users will feel comfortable in that regard. Now just need to rig up the occasional bluescreen and things will be just peachy.
Funny, Outlook 2000 SP2 and Outlook XP don't run those worms. In fact, you have to edit the registry to even get them to run
And, by the way, Windows 2000 SP2 is the most stable Windows out there. BSOD's usually aren't caused by inherent Windows issues, anyway; they are usually caused by faulty hardware or bad drivers.
Bashing Windows for the sake of bashing Windows makes your entire argument less credible, and worse yet, it's not really funny anymore. Score -1, Redundant to parent post for lack of originality.
the default compiler (2.96) is eeeeevil and I really haven't had the time to install 3.02...
I find it annoying when people want to do things like this on linux... Fer chrissake its supposed to be a serving environment not a silly play environment like certain other OS's.
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
Linux can make it on the desktop, as long as they don't try to be a "me-too" Windowsalike.
Personally, I think making a "Windows-ish" distro is the best move the Linux community can make. Linux's biggest selling point is not that it's more stable, has a better design, is more secure, etc. Linux's biggest selling point is that it's free (as in beer).
Think about it. On the one hand you have an OS that runs all of your games, all of your apps, feels familiar, and costs 100-2000 dollars per computer (Windows XP). On the other hand, you have an OS that does all of the same things but is free (Linux). Which one are you going to choose? More to the point, what is your management going to choose? Having a "windowsalike" distro is a potent weapon for corporate acceptance.
Of course, if you don't like your Linux Windows-flavored, just use a distro more to your liking. You've got other choices, you know.
This
No, it's more like 99%. It is hard to break into a secured box. Script kiddies have a field trip breaking into the insecure ones -- there is so many of them to choose from! If the construction industry took security as seriously as certain companies in computer industry do, nearly all houses would be built out of cardboard.
I understand that this is a Linux distro for the Win98 crowd, and that Win98 isn't secure in the least, but I really hope that the Lindows people give the Win98'ers a fighting chance. Otherwise the k33bler pr0n elves are going to be visiting some new Lindows boxes *real* soon.... :-/
If by some chance, this Lindows thing does take off, I can totally see the windows morons claiming that Linux is insecure. It says in the article that This wonderful OS can already run Outlook worms. I guess it wouldn't be windows-compatible without it :-)
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
Basically a BSD-ish license, so they have no requirement to release improvements to WINE.
For all the hubbub that Steve Gibson made about Windows XP and it's raw sockets taking over the world, burning your toast, and painting your room pink, I would think Lindows would make him, and other over-reacting folk, well, over-react.
Sure, you need root access to use raw sockets, but if Lindows forces you to run as root (let's be honest here, if it doesn't work as a regular user you're only viable option is to run as root). So now we have Linux machines with computer dolts running as root who also have the ability to unleash various macro viruses upon the world.
That's double plus ungood.
I think part of the reason people are having trouble wrapping their heads around this concept most posters here think of their computer(s) as system. Something you can access from other computers and something you personallize. This is certainly how I think of my computers.
But not everybody thinks like this; for some people a computer is just a way to get to a tool. Why would such a person have sshd, telnetd, ftpd, or apache running (why should any of us be running telnetd or ftpd but that's a discussion for another time)? Well if you're not running any daemons that cuts the problem down dramatically. It's not perfect; otherstuff can go wrong, but it cuts down on the problem. A system with an old version of apache running on it, not running root, is probably less safe than a Lindows computer without apache running root.
As a software developer, I am not surprised about the lack of help in the beta. In our release cycle, we never get the docs done until the software is releasable, because it isn't until that time that we've got all the answers to the doc groups questions.
Online help is generated from the docs, so that comes even later...
1. Runs windows apps and games as well as Windows
2. Is stabler than Windows
3. Doesn't require Windows
4. Doesn't do away with the things that make Linux a good OS
Someone please explain to me how Lindows even comes close to this. I have Windows. If I'm going to use something else to run Windows programs, it has to work better than Windows. Period. Even by the most optimistic things I've read about this, it doesn't look as if it's going to.
And what was that in the article about it booting in Windows, or dual-booting with Windows, but not dual-booting with Linux? They're kidding, right?
Linux can make it on the desktop, as long as they don't try to be a "me-too" Windowsalike.
Sorry, no. What gave early Windows machines the edge in competition? Making their system look as similar to MacOS as possible. What's the only complaint keeping Linux off desktops in my company? "It doesn't work like Windows, we would need training to use it".
When you're a corporation, "making it on the desktop" means you're selling as many systems as possible. The previous poster's self-effacing is getting in the way of reality- he's too humble to realize he's in the 1% of people who will learn enough to get and demand the best for his money. The other 99% are suckers who buy without knowledge or machine ambition, but their dollars are just as green and they have 99x more buying power. For Joe Sixpack that machine should install in 3 clicks and look exactly like Windows.
To make money, Lindows and the Linux corps need a big button at the front of their wizards that says "Default Install-- For First-time Users" and maybe some instructions about how to click the mouse over the button. Leave stuff like Time Zone out of the wizard, let them worry about that later. And have that default install look and work just like Windows. It's what the reviewer griped about in the article. Like it or not, she represents the majority, not us.
I realize that some applications seem to be absolutely essential to certain people, but doesn't putting a windows emulator (which as near as I can gather is essentialy what this is) kinda defeat the purpose of using Linux? The whole idea of Linux I thought was to get away from the Microsoft approach to things and get a better and more secure system?
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
The single biggest issue I see here *is* that Lindows has you do everything while running as root. That is the *stupidest* thing I have ever heard of.
Sounds to me that Lindows does a tremendous job at providing all the Windows features.
ayottesoftware.com
personally I dont care....I still think its stupid.
Let's say you're Mr. Joe Generic PC User, and you run solitaire, Outlook Express, some Internet Explorer, and maybe you have an AOL dialup account. You also run a couple of other programs you happen to like, such as Quicken or Word.
What is the incentive for you to change?
Think about it. The biggest killer of Office sales is not StarOffice or KOffice, but older versions of Office. People want something that just "gosh-durn works". They don't care about upgrading, and they certainly aren't interested in the fact that the new Athlon 2GHz processor is faster than the equivalent Intel.
If you've ever done PC helpdesk, you know the inevitable deer-in-headlights look that regular computer users get when you say "the U word": upgrade. "Will my applications be okay? What about my documents? How about my email?" Change scares people! Even changing to Windows XP is scary because it doesn't look like other versions of Windows.
I can't even convince people to get rid of 9x and switch to Windows 2000, even though I can promise them stability and more configuration options. The panicked look comes onto their face, and then they say "You know, Windows 98 isn't that bad, and it runs this and this and this, and what if my documents get deleted?!" These people in no way are ready to switch to something that is not Windows, and the more someone makes a big deal out of it, the more scared they get.
I think the parent post has a valid point. If what you are using works, why change? Personally, I'm still on the crusade to rid the world of Windows 98 and switch people over to 2000/XP, but even that is a long and unforgiving ride. If Lindows doesn't even run the applications these people need, forget it. That battle isn't even worth fighting.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
telnet ;rm -rfv /
open lindowshost
root
[enter]
echo Stupid!! Hahaa! |wall
Hope that it dos not include telnetd!!
Nice to know we're heading down the shitty propriatary route again.
News flash!: Critical remote vulernability in the closed source propriatary code of LindowsOS WINE! AND OF COURSE ITS A ROOT VULNERABILITY! Yes kiddies, have fun sitting around and having to wait for a binary patch. Hrm, SOUND FAMILIAR?!
On other notes. People, if you want to run windows...
RUN WINDOWS!!! DON'T TRY TO FUCKING PRETEND... **JESUS**
Pick a god damn operating system, and quit trying to pretend to be another. If you miss your oh so valuable MS producs that bad, dual boot.
Gimme some karma, baby.
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
Ahh yes I can see it now. Since you're root, and running Outlook on your setup, you get a nice VBScript virus which executes rm -rf /.
Heh, PUMA!!
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
I think if we really want great support for linux in the future, a duel OS compiler needs to be created. One that can flawlessly compile c++ code into a windows / linux executable. The only problem would be a standard on APIs.......
application developers would then have no problem creating their apps for linux and windows.
I have been hearing about the stability of windows for some time now, I guess they got their problems with earlier versions ironed out, and have been wanting to give it a try.Not that I can recal ever having problems with my setup.
Everyone tells me their killer app the IE browser rocks.The trouble is application support. I would like to try some of these applications but I really dont want to give up the stuff I am used to. Like the gimp, xine, xmms, gaim, enlightenment, soundtracker, gcc, vi and LTSP(for all my net-appliances scattered about) just to mention a few I use most. I know there is comparable apps but they dont have all the features I need.
Now I have the opportunity to try some of these killer apps without having to sacrifice the things I have come to like so much, except hard drive space.
I have two words to summarize: bottom feeders
Contribute to the community or get out of the game.
However, many people on /. also complain because Linux doesn't have a huge market share. /. posters want a small veryknowlegable community or a large general user base with a smaller precentage of super-gurus, gurus and such?
Which is it? Do
If you want users that are educated in the ways of any OS, you've got to WTFM. Write the ****** Manual.
Face it, unless you make it accessible to the just-outta-college temps and the middle-aged secretaries that I see in _my_ offices, you aren't going to gain desktops.
Man pages won't cut it. Giving them the source and telling 'em to figger it out won't cut it.
Lindows is doing at least one thing right: They're working on making the install procedure as painless as possible. When Linux installs as easy as Windows or Mac OS X, you'll be reducing a big barrier to adoption.
The real barrier coming up is finding ways to get otherwise intelligent people to understand the Unix world. I'm not going to recommend Linux to anyone non-geek co-worker until they don't have to learn crazyness like this:
I want to change the file permissions on this file so that noone can read, write or execute this file but me... Let see... 4 = read, 2 = write, 1 = execute. Therefore I have to chmod 0700
It's not sexy or cutting edge. It's also the weakest part of most projects I've seen.
My father is a blogger.
While I'm already pretty nervous about installing precompiled binaries on my system, it seems like the success of LindowsOS would bring with it the attention of Windows virus writers.
If this distro became popular (even only in a business setting), Linux would be in the same boat as Windows as far as viruses go. Any binary packages you would download would be more likely to contain a virus, and who installs rpms and debs as a user?
Of course this risk is already there, but increased popularity would make it more risky.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
Actually, if you ask 100 people off the street what operating system their computers run, you'll be lucky if you get 95 of them that use computers, never mind have one.
Of those that do, at least a third won't know what you mean by "operating system". You'll get answers including Word, Dell, and AOL among others.
Are these people really going to buy into a system that doesn't run everything they're used to as well as their current one, costs nearly as much, but hey, it's not made by a company called Microsoft.
Hell, most of them won't even buy counterfeit Levi's if they can avoid it. "It's not the real thing, it's not as good."
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
Since a large percentage of people posting here seem to know the pros and cons of this effort, why not send this company an email so when its released it will have less bugs and might actually amount to something that we can all use rather then something else to fill slashdot up with rants.
The story should have Wine icon attached to it!
Why is it that everytime something mentioning windows comes up, this braindead mine vs. yours battle begins? Who gives a shit? Windows users like windows no matter what, and those who can't take it any more seek alternatives. Linux is an alternative for some and a deterrent to others.
At the end of the day, we all know what we like. Stop the nonsensical posts, and stick with the subject at hand. Please.
I tried wine last year. Winzip installed well and unzipped faster than in windows becouse of better filesystem and caching.
Winamp worked fine whit full audio AND visual plugins. Well the visual stuff was slow. I also installed the popular graphical ftp client(cant remember the name) worked perfectly (i downloaded a kernel).
I also had an old Windows98 installation cd.
The installation program worked well exept. That it said: "You need at least 16mb ram to install."
Well I removed all that shit afterwards
Becouse I didn't need it.
But I must say that the wine folks have done an impressing piece of software.
It was the Debian woody prepacked wine.
It really discourages me to read so many people writing such mean things about a product admittedly in a beta stage. I read through post after post just hoping to find someone that had a positive thought, but maybe my browsing level was set too high.
What seemed most frustrating to me is that people are complaining that Lindows lacks feature X, or doesn't have any advantages over "apt-get Y". Actually, I regard this as a positive step forward. My understanding of Lindows is that it is a customized Linux distribution intended to be a drop-in replacement for users who only use basic Office applications. I appreciate and encourage Linux developers to create narrow, focused distributions in addition to huge general purpose ones. Imagine a store where you could purchase a Linux distribution that only runs MAME; a distribution that only runs Word and Excel for example; a web server distribution; and so on. Each distribution would behave (for the user) a lot like a game console - a piece of hardware that performs one useful function.
I for one would be quite happy to see Lindows succeed in its market niche, and engender many imitators. Reading the review posted on NewsForge, I really only got the impression that the reviewer was constantly disappointed because you couldn't add users, it was tough to open a shell window, and the WINE emulation wasn't much better than the off-the-shelf source.
On the other hand, the reviewer seemed to be complaining that there weren't any options available when installing Lindows. Considering the market niche the product aims for, this is good design; it enables customers to begin appreciating their new product rapidly, without having to worry about creating lots of users and passwords and downloading lots of updates.
Please, encourage entrepreneurs like Mr. Robertson to continue working on new products. His product may not be for everybody; and he may need to improve its security and WINE support, but in the end he might just release a useful product.
Most of you little Linux-fanboy pricks seem pissed. Where's the 'community' now? Why slag someone who is at least trying to take Linux from the terd-ball it is now and run some decent desktop apps. Short form is-smarten up, shutup, and FUCKOFF!
The reviewer also has obviously the wrong mindset about usability and things like running as root. One of the things about Linux that drives even "Power User" Windows 9x users nuts is the enforced accounts and pw stuff in Linux (or Win2K, for that matter).
I haven't used Lindows, but it sounds to me like they're on the right track, assuming they can iron out the bugs and keep Win apps from going "poof", as the reviewer called it.
Did any of you notice this comment on the site - I believe the British term for this would be, "poppy cock", no??
Here is the comment:
Let's have a close look at the costs involved when running a Linux system.
An important factor in Linux' cost is its maintenance. Linux requires a *lot* of maintenance, work doable only by the relatively few high-paid Linux administrators that put themselves - of course willingly - at a great place in the market. Linux seems to be needing maintenance continuously, to keep it from breaking down.
Add to this the cost of loss of data. Linux' native file system, EXT2FS, is known to lose data like a firehose spouts water when the file system isn't unmounted properly. Other unix file systems are much more tolerant towards unexpected crashes. An example is the FreeBSD file system, which with soft updates enabled, performance-wise blows EXT2FS out of the water, and doesn't have the negative drawback of extreme data loss in case of a system breakdown.
According to Linux advocates, an alternative to EXT2FS would be ReiserFS. Unfortunately, ReiserFS is still in beta stage. This means it is not intended for production use (although according to many Linux advocates this shouldn't be a problem, which makes me wonder how (little) valuable they find your data).
The other proposed 'solution', EXT3FS, is nothing more than an ugly hack to put journaling into the file system. All the drawbacks of the ancient EXT2FS file system remain in EXT3FS, for the sake of 'forward- and backward compatibility'. This is interesting, considering that the DOS heritage in the Windows 9x/ME series was considered a very bad thing by the Linux community, even though it provided what could be called one of the best examples of compatibility, ever. When it's about Linux, compatibility constraints don't seem to be that much of a problem for Linux advocates.
Back to Linux' cost. Factor in also the fact that crashes happen much more often on Linux than on other unices. On other unices, crashes usually are caused by external sources like power outages. Crashes in Linux are a regular thing, and nobody seems to know what causes them, internally. Linux advocates try to hide this fact by denying crashes ever happen. Instead, they have frequent "hardware problems".
The steep learning curve compared to about any other operating system out there is a major factor in Linux' cost. The system is a mix of features from all kinds of unices, but not one of them is implemented right. A Linux user has to live with badly coded tools which have low performance, mangle data seemingly at random and are not in line with their specification. On top of that a lot of them spit out the most childish and unprofessional messages, indicating that they were created by 14-year olds with too much time, no talent and a bad attitude.
I could go on and on and on, but the conclusion is clear. Linux is not an option for any one who seeks a professional OS with high performance, scalability, stability, adherence to standards, etc.
This is why I always try to be as unfriendly to people as possible -- who wants stupid friends? Most people just accuse me of being anti-social. If only they knew!
lindows is crap... its the worst of both worlds... litterrally. I use linux cuz its stable and just f#ckin cool. Dumb it down, and it aint cool. Add windows support, and it aint stable. And lets not even think about talking about security.
I thought Lindows was for people who speak engrish
Do your best, hope for the best, suspect the worst.
Maybe I'm being a little harsh here but I thought the point of this operating system was to run Windows apps under Linux?
"Windows Media 7.1 doesn't install (it detects an unsupported operating system), Norton Anti Virus 2002 doesn't work, ICQ2001B installs perfectly but doesn't run, Windows Media 6.4 installs okay, even installs new codecs, but when it needs to start playing from the network it says that the address is not found."
Okay, I'll give you the fact that's its a beta product but remember this is a beta you have to pay for. I would expect it to be able to at least do something? It can't even install Internet Explorer. The review doesn't seem to mention any Windows app it can run. The issue of having to run everything as root is obviously scary. Let's say that if (and that's a big IF) you can run Outlook as your mail client then now that app has root access to your system. Not a very fuzzy feeling in my tummy over that.
So yes, a beta product that doesn't work very well. No surprise there. However compared to other Windows/Other-OS efforts like WINE for Linux and Odin for OS/2, this falls really short. Odin at least can run most Win32 apps and you can even run Visual C++ under it. That's pretty impressive. This isn't especially if I have to pay for it to try it out.
The whole Lindows thing is just another bad effort at diverting focus away from the real Linux underneath. With the recent demise of Loki and people turning to Transgamer, it will always be a Windows world, even if it looks like KDE on top.
liB
Hmm. Let's see - this is refered to as a "sneak preview", and the article has lots of quotes an unnamed "insider". Could it be that, perhaps this is not the final release, and that they decided to address potential security problems after they proved (to themselves and the world at large) that they could actually do what they set out to do?
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
"I try to run 100% Open Source/Free Software but it would be nice to complete invoices for my clients who use Excel. "
What about Gnumeric?
======== In the future, everything will be artificial. ========
If Lindows manages to get the 20 most popular windows apps to work flawlessly, it will have a solid chance of succeeding, but if it doesn't, they haven't got a prayer.
>>Shameless plug: Do you need step by step instructions on configuring WINE to run popular Windows applications? Check out my web site, Winecentric
Urm... Last updated July 26, 2001?
Thanks for the URL. I'm sure I'll go there often.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
LOL, I heard the suicide note was found SHREDDED!
"ive run both linux and windows for 7 years. windows 2000/xp is more stable than linux, period. try using linux as a desktop OS with a variety of apps downloaded from everywhere. and XP with the same. youll see which is more stable."
I have too. I happen to disagree. Our experiences with both systems differ.
Humorless sig goes here.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Why should it? Being that Windows will let any user do anything... why shouldn't lindows?
My initial reaction was the same as yours.
But then, I thought... What if Lindows takes off like a runaway train? What if other software companies actually start making programs specifically for Lindows? Finally, what if Lindows never removes the must-be-root "feature?"
How long will it be before someone writes a program that relies on the fact that you're running as root? How long before the fabled Linux (a.k.a. Lindows) stability goes to hell and a handbasket? Okay, it might still be better than Windows, but when a program depends the fact that it's root... that's scary.
I sincerely hope that they remove this restriction for the actual release (that this is only in the beta release), and run the shell as a regular user.
Accountability on the heads of the powerful.
Power in the hands of the accountable.
It wasn't moderated as troll, it was moderated as overrated, which it was. We expect better things from people who post at 2 by default.
People complain about linux installs. Mandrake is easier to keep running than any win9x, and easier to install than win2K. and yeah - Mandrake IS stabler, too. I just have to run 2K for my job. and 9x for, among other things, voice chat over IP is there a linux program that allows voice chatting?
Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
Let's face it.... as much as you some of you may not want to acknowledge, linux will never make it as a mainstream OS until something like Lindows works. While they are some down sides it (understanding what's out there is only a preview release), it's the closest linux-based OS I've seen that I could have my Mom run.... I think there are also a couple of incorrect perceptions here that need to be cleared up... It will install Office from within lindows (without any Windows on the machine) successfully. I did a clean install, no windows on the drive whatsoever, and watched it install Office2ooo without a hitch. I also see absolutely no reason at all why you can't dual-boot this with another linux. In fact, I have a spare laptop that now has Windows 98, a custom version of RH linux developed within my company and lindows all working.... the only downside I've found with the sneak preview is in the case of the sneak preview, you're always in root (which is fine for a preview but not something I've live with for my work) and I found there was no pcmcia support for lindows alongside windows installs. Obviously, it worked fine with a lindows clean install but pcmcia isn't supported in the sneak preview for a lindows inside windows install...
If you care about linux (and I do) then you should realize that it's long-term viability is directly linked to mainstream acceptance and use. Anything that helps this fight should be supported and needs to be.... lindows does and will help that.
'
Do you really want to struggle with the linux
kernel of the week with all its vm instability,
unscalability, and networking incompatabilities?
Just run the GUI on top of FreeBSD.
Even though it may not be that great now, its better than vaporware that never gets released...
No one enjoys a field trip.
I can see lindows *maybe* being used as a "intro to linux" thing, maybe... But the name and the fact that it has a "super easy install", plus it is linux (more or less) is going to attract.. you guessed it. script kiddies.
BEing an administrator in Windows is not the same as being root in UNIX. Root is a FAR more powerful account. With root you basically become the system. With Administrator rights, you have the ability to excersize a great deal of control over the system, but you still have limits. For example Windows XP exerts some protection over it's system files, to keep them from being replaced/corrupted. Now certian things (like driver updates) can override that, but in general use, it is enforced, even for admins.
I don't espically worry about doing my work on a Windows system with administrator rights. I DO worry about staying logged in as root. It is more powerful, and as such more dangerous.
The state of DVD playback on Linux is not what it is on Windows.
You mean, "legal"? It's hard to carry on development of legitimate software when a crucial chunk of hit has to be distributed anonymously through Geocities.
I haven't read the review yet. But... Due to the fact the editor didn't put a biased, suggestive opinion at the end of story post... Well, I figured that must mean it's not too good since it doesn't have the typical Slashdot HURRAH! Saved some time.
Why bother.
But to speak quite frank this image is a pretty crappy way to make people feel fuzzy. KFM is OBVIOUSLY half dead behind the menu there since it hasn't repainted the window. KFM is solid for me, but I'm saying that a new entry into the Linux Arena needs to (at the extreme freakin' least) make for damn sure their screen shots are perfect.
P.S.
Yes, I know this isn't from the Lindows site, but I feel my point still stands...
I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man,
I'm just a mortal with potential of a super man.
Max: What?! What?!
Inigo: Are you the Miracle Max who worked for the suits for all those years?
Max: The suits' stinking lawyers sued me. And thank you so much for bringing up such a painful subject. While you're at it, why don't you give me a nice tongue clamp, and run current through it. We're closed! [Max closes a flap over the door hole, but Inigo still knocks] Beat it or I'll call the Business Software Alliance!
Fezzik: I'm on the Business Software Alliance.
Max: You are the Business Software Alliance!
Inigo: We need a miracle. It's very important.
Max: Look, I'm retired. Besides, why would you want someone the suits' stinking lawyers fired. I might vaporize whatever you want to make the miracle.
Inigo: It's already vapor.
Max: It is, eh? I'll have a look. Bring it in. [They enter. Max examines the laptop.] I've seen worse.
Inigo: Sir... Sir.
Max: Huh?
Inigo: We're in a terrible rush.
Max: Don't rush me, sonny. You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles. You got money?
Inigo: Distro CDs...
Max: Sheesh! I never worked for so little; except once and that was a very noble cause.
Inigo: This is noble, sir. It's software is... crippled... child processes on the brink of starvation...
Max: Are you a rotten liar.
Inigo: I need it to help avenge my DR-DOS prompt, murdered these twenty years.
Max: Your first story was better. Where's that compressed air. It's probably hiding your porn, huh. Well, I'll ask it.
Inigo: It's vapor. It can't tell you.
Max: Ooooohh! Look who knows so much, eh! It just so happens that your friend here is only mostly vapor. There's a big difference between mostly vapor and all vapor. Please open the CD-ROM drive. [He inserts the compressed air nozzle] Now, mostly vapor is slightly running. Now, all vapor... well, with all vapor, there's usually only one thing that you can do.
Inigo: What's that?
Max: Hype it in Wired and hope for an IPO. [Max shoots air into laptop and yells at it] Hey! Hello in there! Hey! What's so important? Whatcha got here, that's worth running for? [Max pushes on laptop's space bar]
Laptop: [barely audible] Lin....dows...
Inigo: [excited] Lindows! You heard it! You could not ask for a more noble cause than that.
Max: Sonny, Lindows is the greatest thing in the world; except for a nice CCD - Caffeinated Choco-Death, where the caffiene is nice and strong, and the marshmallows melt. They're so perky. I love that. But that's not what it said! It distinctly said, 'bit hose'. And as we all know, 'bit hose' means a fat pipe. So, you were probably surfing for warez and it segfaulted...
Old Woman: [interrupting] Liar!! Liar!! Liarrrrr!
Max: Get back, witch!
Old Woman: I'm not a witch, I'm your wife. But after what you just said, I'm not even sure I want to be that anymore.
Max: You never had it so good. [Max smiles at Inigo]
Valerie: [Max's wife] Lindows, who said Lindows, Max?
Max: Don't say another word, Valerie... [Inigo looks on in disbelief]
Valerie: You're afraid. Ever since Microsoft fired him, his confidence has shattered.
Max: [yelling] Why'd you say that name?! You promised me that you would never say that name!
Valerie: What, Microsoft?!
Max: [cringes] Ahh!!
Valerie: Microsoft!
Max: Ahh!!
[Valerie is chasing Max around the room yelling. Max is covering his ears]
Valerie: Microsoft!
Max: Ahh!!
Valerie: Microsoft!
Max: Ahh!!
Valerie: [now in a sing-songy voice] Microsoft... Microsoft! Microsoft! Microsoft! Microsoft!
Max: I'm not listening!
Valerie: Lindows, processes expiring and you don't have the decency to say why you won't help!
Max: Nobody's hearing nothing!
Valerie: Microsoft! [She continues to yell 'Microsoft']
Inigo: [interrupting] This is the user's true love. If you heal it, it will stop Microsoft's monopoly!
Max: [to Valerie] Shut up!
Inigo: Thank you. Thank you.
Max: Wait, wait. I make it better, Microsoft suffers?
Inigo: Lost sales galore!
Max: Ha ha!! That is a noble cause! Give me the distros! I'm on the job!
(Mad props to Robert Zabaga for his transcription of the original script)
normal(adj)- people who don't sit on slashdot all day wondering why everyone else isn't building robots [DECS]
Which, of course, raises the question: what hardware were you using?
My work desktop has been rock solid reliable. Linux 7.1, 167 days uptime. My home system has been much less reliable.. X seems to lock up once every couple of weeks. I can usually ssh to my home system from another box and kill off the X server and things come back, but not always. I don't know whether it is the hardware or my extremely heavily customized kernel and library set, but that's the cost of rolling your own.
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
then linux has taken a step towards failure. I dont want linux to become another Windows OS populated with Windows users. I like linux just the way it is. I don't want to receive badly formatted mail from MS programs. I don't want masses of unpatched systems because of users who don't even understand why it is important. I help Windows users with such tasks as forwarding email, putting the address in the 'to:' field, and "The window did not dissapear, it just went into the background." Windows is for them, and we have linux. Let's keep it that way.
Linux 7.1, 167 days uptime.
By which I meant Red Hat Linux 7.1, of course. Sorry, I do know better. ;-)
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
Well, if people want Office, IE, and a couple of other popular apps, why not create brand new applications from scratch(running on Linux)? Such Linux applications will mimic 99% of the look, feel and functionality of apps like Office.
Its better to "rip-off" a few apps in the Windows world, than to get Wine to run all the so-so Windows programs that people don't usually run.
Yeah you might get sued by Microsoft, but then again Lindows is getting sued anyways, so what the hell.
k2x
fascinating. real subtle transition from fisting my nose to the gran turismo 3. i was just reading along, fisting my ass, and i started making vroom noises.
here is a not for others though, don't fist your ass, then your nose, it stinks like a bitch
You apparently haven't researched the roles of users and groups (yes, groups exist) in Windows XP beyond the pretty blue AOL-like user manager. Try this for size:
1. Open Administrative Tools (can be found under Control Panel.)
2. Select Computer Management
3. Observe the already existing groups. Make your own, add users to it.
4. Run the following: \WINDOWS\system32\gpedit.msc
5. Look under \Computer Configuration\Windows Settings\Security Settings
Here you will find the ability to specify the security level of dozens of actions, allocate special OS permissions, restrict software execution given certain scenarios, password aging and complexity rules, auditing, etc.
If you're using the NTFS filesystem, open Explorer, select Folder Options from the Tools menu. Select the View tab and scroll to the bottom of the Advanced Settings. Disable simple file sharing. Now the properties page of any file or directory will include the ability to control user access to that resource, considerably beyond just wrx, inclusively or exclusively by user or group, and have those properties inherited down the directory tree.
NT has a very rich role-based security model, and always has.
Jerry Pournelle wrote an excellent article circa 1997 for Byte about how badly IBM dropped the ball on OS/2. Of the interesting highlights:
- IBM drastically underestimated demand for OS/2 2.0 when it first came out. They didn't make nearly enough diskettes, and there were many stories of Eggheads (and other stores) running out of copies. I can attest to this, I couldn't get a copy when it first came out, either
- Comdex, 1991: IBM was charging an OUTRAGEOUS price for their SDK (on the order of $150-$200). MS was handing SDKs for Win3.0 out to anybody who walked by.
- Comdex, 1991: IBM OS/2 2.0 won best-of-show against Win3.0. Jerry recounts having to wait HALF AN HOUR at the awards show while they hunted down an IBM rep to even accept the award. All the while, the runner-up (Microsoft) was swarming with reps, all asking questions as to why they didn't win, handing out more SDKs, etc
There was even the time I called IBM tech support and got literally laughed at by the tech support for trying to run OS/2 on a 386/40 (recommended was a 386/33 at the time). 486/50s were bleeding edge at the time.When OS/2 2.0 came out, only Win3.0 came out. IBM dropped OS/2 big time. By the time OS/2 2.1 came out, Win3.11 was well on its way and nobody gave two wits about OS/2 any more.
Finally, keep in mind that OS/2 1.x was the laughing stock of OSes at the time. Even more so than Win386, Win2.0, etc. The DOS box was nicely referred to as the "penalty box" for how miserably it performed.
Say what you want about Microsoft (I don't like them either). They know how to market their wares. And when you bumble as badly as IBM did, you have no chance.
One of the reasons I fled the Windoze world was the crappy limited UI.
_ __
KDE can look like Windows (or half a dozen other OSes) or I like using Gnome's CDE panel layout with a Mac OS style thin menu up top which gives a similiar look OS X.
Why are we in the Linux community so damn intent on copying Windows. Everytime someone talks about Windows and its shortcomings the UI and its inconsistencies and oddities come up. However, when we as a community start building a Desktop environment everyone brags on the interfaces, desktops and even the distros that imitate the Evil freakin' Empire. If you like it so much then stay in your Windows world.
There are so many linux diehards that run linux on your servers and screw around with it occasionally but don't take the few hours on the side to set up a user interface and actually live with the OS 24/7 as your workstation.
I do live with it and once it is set up properly anyone including my wife can use it. The Distros need to hard look at moving the desktop interface, UI and user experience forward instead of blindly following the lead of Redmond.
_______________________________________________
ACK
This is the interesting thing....the question is whether or not it should enforce security, in exchange for usability. I personally think that they should not.
You see, they think that there are a lot of people who are willing to go through "crazy" measures to not support Microsoft. I, however, belive they are mistaken. Their aim should be at sastisfying offices, not individuals.
Think about it...
Why don't you link us to a screenshot of your desktop environment?
2 crap OS's rolled into 1, brilliant!
The point is that, in general, root is way more powerful than an NT administrator. Administrator in NT/2k/XP is just a powerful user, with lots of rights. Root IS the system. The equivalant user in NT is "LocalSystem", which you aren't allowed to login as. That's one of the things that bugs some UNIX people about NT, there are things you can't do, even as admin.
Just saying as a general rule being logged in as root is more powerful and therefore dangerous. Not saying that is a bad thing.
I'm posting this from win2k, I love win2k.
I have a dual boot with Mandrake as a second choice.
I occassionally boot into Mandrake to fiddle around and get frustrated at how useless Linux on the desktop is to me, a graphics guy.
I love Linux as a server - it's stunning - a work of art, I ssh into a terminal and feel like a king at the controls as I bash and vi my way through the wonderful world of the Linux server.
I occassionally boot my NT box across the room to see it crash into a wall. It spends most of it's time crashing anyway, so I don't mind much - although my foot really hurts most the time.
Linux for the Server
Windows for the Desktop
Lindows ?
Bleh, savvy Linux users don't want it, savvy Windows use wouldn't use it and the other 99% of the computing population would probably think it's some kind of dairy product.
What a waste of time.
Why not follow the MacOS route and forget about trying to emulate windows on the desktop for Linux - how about spending time developing a Linux OS that can run native MacOS applications ?
Surely it's a tad easier, considering what MacOS X is based on ?
In fact, it's a total no-brainer.
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
Crappy UI ?
Last time I looked, which is right now, I was presented with a stable, work horse of a Desktop operating system - win2k.
Let me see now, I have Flash, Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Fireworks and a whole slew of decent multimedia applications I can use to get my job done.
Oh but wait, what I should be doing instead of actually working is messing around making my desktop look pretty - how silly of me !
Yes - bring on those multi-colour animated icons, those slide-out menu bars with funky transparent bits and animated cpu-draining backgrounds.
Give me that 32-bit 1280 background of a couple of anime chicks that drains my video-card memory !
Forget the applications, forget the fact that I need to get some work done - I'll mess around making my UI look pretty all day long.
Won't the boss be pleased ? - Heck yeah !
And you expect us to take you seriously? :)
btw, there's a neat word trick here - "Linux" crashes very, very, very rarely, but "Linux Systems" have been known to, and it's usually X that crashes. The user of course wouldn't see that difference, but only that the computer is "frozen" (there is actually a real difference here, in that you often can login remotely and kill X, but the people we are talking about usually don't have 5 computers on their home network)
sic transit gloria mundi
So i would say they've been successful in emulating windows ;-) Gee i wonder if it crashes as often.
admittedly, lindows is a good thing. it offers more choice... even if it is a bad choice. for everyone out there desperate to run a few old windos apps -- www.netraverse.com -- works great! Costs $79 + you have to find yer old win 95 /98 disk. -- no running as root -- in fact it will NOT even load up as root.--- And no I dont work for them!
The single biggest issue I see here *is* that Lindows has you do everything while running as root.
It's not 1.0 yet, I expect they'll fix it. This isn't rocket science, but it is time consuming to get all the permissions right and I understand why they left it to last.
I think they might have rushed this preview a little, due to skeptical editorial comments on lwn.net. On balance I think it was a good move, even if it means people get to look a more of the unfinished aspects than they might have liked.
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
I hope my Lindows desktop doesn't look like the desktop in the PNG image -- all blurry!
PNG has got to be the s***iest graphics format I've seen.
Long live JPEG!
Personally, I find 'vaporware' a term only usable in sentences with words like 'Duke Nukem' and 'Forever', but I find it ironic that a preview of this OS makes it NOT vaporware anymore while Microsoft has to release a full version of .NET to make it non-vaporware (still people believe it's vaporware). Odd.
Looking at the screenshot, it screams 'Programmer Art', it hurts: the icons are not consistent. Some have blank borders, some are smooth, XP like. Was it too much to ask for a decent designer?
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Lindows.com try to emulate Windows.
what i don't get is why from this information it shouldn't be regarded as vaporware...what happend to the Windows Application Interface Layer which they're developers [sic] had made better than anything else that was available and from what i saw in that article, its KDE, WINE and a simple installation...so what? i don't quite see why anyone would justify $99 for something that (presumably) mandrake can do already?
this just confirmed the rumours that it is vaporware if you ask me...
please
I really wish people would stop whining. "crappiest UI on the world", oh man, you haven't seen crappy UIs then.
Don't you realize that this is your opinion and nothing more? The Windows GUI gets copied because everyone learned how to use it. Doesn't mean it's good, but it also means anyone who used Windows can use the Windows-like UIs too.
When I started using Linux and X about 7 years ago coming from OS/2, it had fvwm and I spend at least a week to get it to work how I was used to (and I actually liked fvwm95 that came later). KDE or GNOME made this more or less obsolete. And if you want you can tweak it to whatever you think is "The Best UI" and please stop whinging on about how terrible it is in the default setup, because I bet 90 percent of the users are happy with that and don't want it different (because if they were unhappy, they would start a new "wonderful" GUI... like KDE was started because CDE was crap, ugly and expensive...and GNOME was started because KDE was using QT, C++ and was Windows-like).
just had to get that off my chest...
And I believe they will continue being wrong for a long time. Take Win2K, for example. A stable and secure system (on NTFS), right?
.reg file and click "Ok".
/etc
:-)
/lib, /usr and everything else, chroot, and you get to have absolutely anything you want without security problems! (Yeah, I know chroot can be broken, but that requires some work)
Well, no. Here's something to show to your friends.
Windows test:
Boot Win9x. Open regedit and export HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE. That'll be enough.
Boot a fresh Win2K install, with the latest service pack and patches.
Login as a normal user
Double click the
Reboot.
Watch an unbootable "secure and stable" system.
Linux test:
Boot any Linux distribution
Log in as an user
Try to edit anything in
Doesn't work, right?
I feel Windows will be plagued with this problem for a long time. It's simply needed to keep compatibility. Windows never went so far to have a completely functional $HOME. Yeah, you've got your settings there, but the amount of programs that use it correctly is very small, and almost all the installers write to HKLM. Compare that to Linux, where if I wanted I could have my own environment. Just make your own
Even without going so far, it's perfectly possible to install KDE or Perl in $HOME avoiding bothering the sysadmin, and the DLL hell. Try that on Windows.
Since SP2 my W2k has been running great. I think that it's usually bad drivers that mess up the OS, since they run at the level of the system.
And like other people said, you do better putting a computer together from standard parts than buying a major brand.
...with hassle free operation... and you have a couple grand burning a hole in your pocket... try OS X
With the existence of Linux alone, Microsoft cannot be a monopoly according to the definition. With BSD and the Mac-OS, they get even farther away from the definition. One of many is not a monopoly.
So, when reporting Lindows related stories, should tux be equipped borg style, as Bill is, in the slashdot icon? Or should it show Bill wearning a tuxedo?
:wq
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=25662&cid=2788 588
http://www.stjohnsprepschool.org/~manuel/
It uses KDE.
I noticed because of the Min/Maximize boxes
--Manuel
"I hate quotations, tell me what you think"
I just got linux-mandrake on my new computer 1 week ago. My god is it an improvement over windows. I don't think it is that hard to use. Anyway, on my old computer I had Windows Malfunction Edition going. It froze up all the friggen time and programs crashed on me at least twice a day. Linux has not had any problems since I went through the easy, trouble-free installation. It's weird not having constant computer crashes, like I did with windows.
If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
I've used Miva - it is a sack of shit.
sic transit gloria mundi
MPlayer
This is my work desktop.
I use my home dir as my desktop (I hate the seperate desktop and home folder convention).
I use Ximian Gnome, Nautilus as a my file manager, Galeon to browse and Evolution as my email client.
I use this desktop at work using StarOffice, and Gnumeric for Windoze file work.
I do not believe that any OS in the end-all as another person suggested. I am a configuration manager (Sysadmin and code work) for a Unix-based development company. It works for me.
http://bailes.home.mindspring.com/screen1.png
ACK
Well, it has a worse problem - region protection. I couldn't find a way to bypass it.
-- The ballad of arrivederci