It wont be a burial, tho. They're just gonna leave me there where I land..There'll be no grave to dance on. You're welcome to ride the water slide, tho. I figure the videotape sales will cover the cost of building the slide and everything else.
I don't plan on charging admission, tho. I believe in open-source funerals. You're welcome to attend for free, but show up early -- parking's a bitch here in Tucson.:)
A) "And I see you got yourself thrown off Metalab"? Dumbass, propaganda.tilez.org just redirects to metalab.unc.edu/propaganda. We're still there, and have no intention of ever leaving. Dislodge your head from your ass and you might notice it next time you visit. From the sound of it, i'd say you visit it often.
Toonz is a 2D cel-animation program. Perhaps a discussion of how or why this story matters to more than 1% of Slashdot's readers would be a more interesting read than this crap.
This story is oooold. Read about in Wired like 2 weeks ago (in print, even)..Pissed me off, because a friend of mine were tossing around the idea of doing something like this before we found out it already existed. Heh
Oh well. Anyone want neurocast.org/net?:) Bowie J. Poag
You mention skinning, and I fail to see how amazingly innovative skinning is. Skins in their present form (XMMS, Mozilla) are nothing but different ways of presenting the same information. So the button is blue with white stripes instead of grey. Maybe the buttons are arranged differently, I could almost see how this could help target different groups of users by stressing different parts of the UI. But we're still in the WIMP paradigm that has been only slightly modified since the original Macs."
I don't mean to sound snotty or holier-than-thou by pointing this out, but the two examples you list (XMMS and Mozilla) are hardly representative of what can be done these days..Also, it says to me that you aren't really aware of whats being done with skins these days. Most of it is taking place in the Win32 world, so, its not surprising most Linux guys aren't fully aware of it..Myself included, up till a few months ago. It's really amazing.
Skins used to be a purely cosmetic thing.. Literally, as you point out, just changing the appearance of things, and only that. This is naturally what happens when people add skinning functionality to their pre-existing applications as an afterthought. More and more these days, coders are building their apps from the start with skinning in mind, to allow things beyond simple cosmetic changes. Nowadays, we're talking full modification of the interface itself. Anything and everything can be rearranged, reshaped, and moved, changed and resized to suit the user's own preferences. In some cases, the functionality of the underlying application can even be added to, with the introduction of a new skin.
Here are some resources you might want to look at in the meantime.
I agree with the article in most respects, but I have a different take on where it's all going. IMHO, the future of UI design isn't in global adherence to a standard dictated by a company. The future of UI design is where applications adhere to the user's own preferences. That seems to be the logical direction of things right now (well, the last few years at least).. See, everyone wants cars, but some people want Ferarris, and some people want Toyotas. We're in the Model T era of UI design. Little black boxes with wagon wheels.
There will be an article in next month's Wired regarding the skinning scene. If you want to see where real UI design is going, have a look at it. Makes a good compendium to this article.
My $0.02, (and Propaganda is open, btw. Click the link)
I'm not gonna jump on the "I knew this 3 days ago" bandwagon, but I did.:) Infact, I listened to my shortwave last night before I went to bed, and overheard a conversation between 3 HAM radio operators about it. They apparently didnt think it was gonna be a big deal compared to other similar occurances in the past.
Its not a yes or no question. Its a question of human nature. Regardless of how unbaised we claim to be, ultimately we ALL end up being pushed and throttled and nudged to one side over another. You, me, everyone. Writers, third parties, the whole lot.
Here's an interesting tidbit of reality for example: Lets suppose our very own CmdrTaco was to write a review of some sort. I've had several (private) conversations with Malda by email..He's done an admirable job of trying to convince me that he remains totally unbiased, despite the connections he has to his employers, despite his money, and despite his fame. In Rob's mind, he's managing to offset the pressures, and doing as best a job he can NOT to be affected by it all.
Rob is human, which means he's affected by different pressures in a number of subtle ways. Unfortunately, the fact that hes sitting on a crapload of money means that he cant possibly be as "hungry" as someone who hasn't made it yet. The tainting has already taken place. It can be masked with effort, but its effect is irreversible. Rob can no longer care about Linux as much as someone who hasnt yet made it to the promised land. Rob, despite how much he tries to, cannot be unbiased when it comes to issues surrounding VA. They cut his paycheck every two weeks. The influences exerted on him can be counteracted -- But that doesn't erase the fact that the overall equation has been tampered with.
Rob + Bias Correction != Old Rob.
YOU + Bias Correction != Old You.
The proof is fairly abundant here. The very thing that is driving Linux right now is the same thing thats corrupting it. Greed. The psychotic need to continually put yourself an inch above your competitors..Until that stops, the ball will keep rolling, and we'll eventually become what we originally despised.
Don't leave it up to the marketing department. Leave it up to the users. They'll decide.
The point I was trying to make was this: Very few people have anything to complain about when it comes to KDE's aesthetic qualities. It looks nice, and runs nice. The only thing standing in the way of KDE's mainstream success is the hangup they've got with the licensing issues surrounding Qt. It borders on the idiotic. Theyre trying to make money off licensing the libraries, when they could make 1000x more money by getting KDE out there, and in the hands of the public. Its like stopping two feet before the finish line to tie your damn shoes.. its rediculous.
Troll Tech has only themselves to blame for the lack of acceptance of KDE. Licensing issues scare OSS developers. Its a fact. So long as Troll Tech insists on scaring off the developers, GNOME will creep closer and closer to beating them at their own game.
The whole thing is just rediculous. As a Linux developer, which would you rather do? Pay cash for Qt, or develop with gtk for free? See what I mean?
Wooo, lets all be afraaaaaid of the holding company! Gimmie a break. If you dont like a company, you have a constitutionally protected right to say whatever the hell you want about that company, provided you dont cross the line into slander. You can get up on a soapbox, but you cant yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater.
Anyone who tells you otherwise is either ignorant, or is lying to you.
You know, i'd like to see some hard numbers as to just how many people have actually purchased a Qt License from Troll Tech.. And, more specifically, if that number is sufficiently large enough to really warrant keeping Qt something other than GPL'ed.
The only thing standing in the way (as I see it) of KDE being the dominant desktop for Linux is this persistant, irritating, annoying, pointless debate over the nature of the Qt libraries. Its a boat anchor that has been dragged behind KDE for far, far too long. Get it over with, guys.
Its only by pure luck that GNOME development has been centered more on building pointless foo-foo options as of late, rather can concentrating on basic usability issues. Both efforts have boat anchors. One has to do with politics, the other has to do with direction.
I'm convinced the whole OSS movement will inevitably fail. It has its own demise built right into it..As more and more people begin to realize the somewhat disturbing truth about things (ie. people are making money off what you've done, and advancing their careers off YOUR hard work, while you get nothing) the whole system will slowly grind to a halt and fail.
By the time that happens, fortunes will have already been made, and the ones who corrupted the process by introducing greed into the equation will have already moved on to something else.
OSS only works when the primary motivation of its participants is fun. When that motivation goes from fun to *greed*, the whole process begins a slow and irreversible decay as more and more people refuse to play along. Thats my $0.02..If I didnt believe it, I wouldnt have typed it.
Well, I'm sure my experience with computers in the classroom is a similar one to many others here.. If it weren't for my librarian (Brenda Sand, Prairie Elementary School, circa 1979-1984) wheeling a giant old black & white Magnavox TV into the room hooked up to an Apple II, and teaching us the bare essentials of BASIC programming when I was like 6 or 7, then I probably would never have had anything in life I could really latch onto and enjoy for as long as i've enjoyed computers.
I used to stay after school and play around with the Apple II's until the damn janitors kicked me out at 5:30. I was lucky, tho, I only lived two houses away from the school, and I knew how to cross the street without getting killed.:)
Having 3 measly underpowered personal computers hooked up to black & white TVs gave me a truse sense of awe among other things..along with it, a sense of responsibility, creativity, logic, respect, and imagination, and power. I was the youngest kid in the neighborhood growing up, and having that sort of thing to pour my time and energy into was unbelievably important to me, in retrospect.
Taking computers out of schools is like saying "Screw books! We have television!".. not the smartest strategy when it comes to education. Schools should be places where truckloads of information are available in a wide array of forms. Im pretty sure I was the only kid in school who understood what BLOAD meant, but it didn't matter. I learned 10x more with computers in schools as I was growing up as I would have learned without them.
A good thing -- Because with that knowledge, at the age of 26 I can pretty much choose where I live and choose what I do with my life. Many people with educations less comprehensive than mine don't have that luxury.
Information isn't evil. However, the teachers--the people who control access to that information are largely ignorant when it comes to computers. When you have that sort of situation, where the access to information is controlled by people ignorant about the technology involved (as many teacher's will readilly admit to being) THAT is the problem. The people in charge, not the computers. Computers are just tools, like chalkboards, overhead projectors or books. If you dont know how to use them, the information they hold never sees the light of day.
Neither of those discuss anything regarding the reason why ColdStorage was mysteriously shitcanned out of nowhere, and what communication Guntharp or McCombs had with Brian Biles. Until that is settled, the song remains the same.
Really. About the only thing Corel PhotoPaint 3 has over GIMP is a more socially-acceptable name.:)
Its hard to sell a product when your competitor is giving theirs away for free. Just ask Netscape.:) Personally, I think this is more of a mistake than a good move for Corel. Doing so more or less admits to the world that they can't compete in the same market. Countless hours of development down the tubes with no way of recouping costs = a bad thing.
In your reply, you said:I am of course working on what I was told to me by trae and the rest. Those guys aren't talking because they've already talked with you and put their views before the world to see.
This isn't true. I've repeatedly asked Tony Guntharp and Trae McCombs to compare notes, going back as far as November '99. Never got a straight answer out of either of them. Contrary to your claim, neither of them have "put their views before the world to see". You're paid to do their work for them. Thats your job.
You also said:
"> My ethics didn't go out the window just because VA went public. If VA was that kind of company do you think that you'd still have an account on/.? "
Malda told me in an email not too long ago that he was feeling some pressure to do just that several times. It would be sort of stupid of you, because it would prove everything i've been trying to say in the first place. As for complaining about VA on a site OWNED by VA, where the hell else is there to go? Linux.com? Nope, VA owns that. Freshmeat? Nope, VA owns that too. Good luck.
And, you later said: "So answer me this, you told everyone here you were developing a GTK widget repository, something that sourceforge was not designed to compete with. Is this true? You said you would "do some project hosting"."
We were clear with Trae from the beginning. We were attemping to unite the developers under one umbrella. We were going to do that by offering a giant component stockpile for GTK & QT developers. Music, graphics, soundbites, code, the works. Read the interview I did with Linux.com in November '99 if you don't believe me, its all there in black and white. In exchange for developers adopting our work, we would offer them free hosting space for their projects. Once we had amassed enough support, we felt that we would have been enough of an assett to VA that they would hire us. This was the entire reason I agreed to begin work on the project in the first place. 500,000 pageviews sustained for 6 months straight would guarantee me a position at VA, Trae claimed. Later I found out that Trae is NOT in a position to make such offers, and he had done this sort of thing to a number of people, and burned a number of people.
If you were VA, why would you bother to wait for a group of volunteers to do the work, when you could just as easilly put some of your own guys on the task 9 to 5? Why hire a dozen new people when you can do it with 3 that you've already got?
Now you know why Tony Guntharp doesn't talk, and Trae McCombs doesn't talk.
Keep trying Chris, you're starting to get it, I think.
You're right, Chris. I'm sorry. VA's actions are above questioning. They are God, and to question God is heresy. Infact, anyone who even raises an eyebrow is insane, and must be burned at the stake. At the very least, VA's detractors should be dipped in water ; shall they sink, then they are pure -- shall they float, they are witches, and should be burnt at the stake! Burn the witches!!
How terribly misguided i've been, Chris. Now that you've shown me the light, I can ignore the two dozen or so emails i've recieved over the past 6 months from others who've been similarly screwed by the company you work for. As you point out, theyre all liars too. Then there's the matter of SourceForge being a ripoff of System 12, well, I guess I can forget about that too. After all, it was only 7 months worth of work and preparation on behalf of myself and the others. Water under the bridge, my friend.
Why? Simple! As you point out, its unreasonable for me or anyone else to even question the motives and business practices of your company.
sarcasm(off);
The fact is, Chris, you weren't even there. You werent involved with the dealings I had with Trae McCombs and others at VA during the timespan of April-December of '99. The only "truth" you know is what you've gleaned from your co-workers trying to cover their ass.
You can hide behind the GPL all you want. You know for a fact that it doesn't protect developers from having their work co-opted by a company such as VA, and putting their full-time employees to work on the task of replicating the work of volunteers. Soon the volunteers happily chipping away at the problem wont matter, and the idea they created becomes an intellectual property of the company. Thats precisely what happened with System 12. I think thats pretty much clear to everyone by now. McCombs isnt talking, Guntharp isn't talking, Biles isn't talking. Theyre too busy covering their collective asses.
To say VA is above doing the same thing to other OSS projects is laughable. Any company will do that. VA in particular has poured millions into an ant farm they expect to bear fruit for the company. The instant a good idea pops up that is of benefit to the company, VA will co-opt it, and leave the volunteers in the dust.
I cant speak for anyone else here, but you're insulting my intelligence with your froth. You're paid by VA to blow smoke up people's asses. Thats a fact. PAID. As in, VA gives you money to follow me around waving a big "Don't believe him! He's a WITCH! Burn the witch!!" sign. If you were actually impartial, i'd love to talk with you. Unfortunately, you arent.
You're a mouthpiece for a company. That means you're not free to say anything you want. You'de lose your job. I'm not interested in "making peace" with the assholes in your company. By the same token, I dont have any beef with you, personally, Chris. Infact, I've heard you're a nice guy in real life. When you take your tie off at the end of the day, you're a swell guy. The only problem is, its part of your job description to put out the flames. If you were truly objective about the situation, I'd love to clue you in.
The thing is, I refuse to believe you sleep with your tie on.
Why not? I could quite happily be a thorn in VA's side until they own up to what they did to us. Rather than do that, they protect their corporate image by sicking DiBona and VA's Department of Caring on anything bad to say about the company. Can you blame them? You don't have to be involved, really...so why do you even care what is said either way?
If you don't like me, dont follow what i'm doing. If you dont like my work, dont use it. Don't believe me? No problem -- You're not obligated to even listen. The only "sinking" here comes from people who don't have enough stones to call VA's practices into question.
Slashdot Mirror
Thats okay. I forgive you.
Bowie J. Poag
What, give up? Man.. Beating down the twits is easier than ever. :)
Bowie J. Poag
That was an absolutely stunning comeback. Try again.
Bowie J. Poag
It wont be a burial, tho. They're just gonna leave me there where I land..There'll be no grave to dance on. You're welcome to ride the water slide, tho. I figure the videotape sales will cover the cost of building the slide and everything else.
:)
I don't plan on charging admission, tho. I believe in open-source funerals. You're welcome to attend for free, but show up early -- parking's a bitch here in Tucson.
Bowie J. Poag
Wow. A double-dose of stupidity! :)
A) "And I see you got yourself thrown off Metalab"? Dumbass, propaganda.tilez.org just redirects to metalab.unc.edu/propaganda. We're still there, and have no intention of ever leaving. Dislodge your head from your ass and you might notice it next time you visit. From the sound of it, i'd say you visit it often.
B) You forgot to mention a link. Here's two.
PROPAGANDA (MetaLab)
PROPAGANDA (Tilez.org)
Have a nice day!
Bowie J. Poag
Toonz is a 2D cel-animation program. Perhaps a discussion of how or why this story matters to more than 1% of Slashdot's readers would be a more interesting read than this crap.
Bowie J. Poag
This story is oooold. Read about in Wired like 2 weeks ago (in print, even) ..Pissed me off, because a friend of mine were tossing around the idea of doing something like this before we found out it already existed. Heh
:)
Oh well. Anyone want neurocast.org/net?
Bowie J. Poag
Howdy. Thanks for the good reply, btw..
You wrote,
You mention skinning, and I fail to see how amazingly innovative skinning is. Skins in their present form (XMMS, Mozilla) are nothing but different ways of presenting the same information. So the button is blue with white stripes instead of grey. Maybe the buttons are arranged differently, I could almost see how this could help target different groups of users by stressing different parts of the UI. But we're still in the WIMP paradigm that has been only slightly modified since the original Macs."
I don't mean to sound snotty or holier-than-thou by pointing this out, but the two examples you list (XMMS and Mozilla) are hardly representative of what can be done these days..Also, it says to me that you aren't really aware of whats being done with skins these days. Most of it is taking place in the Win32 world, so, its not surprising most Linux guys aren't fully aware of it..Myself included, up till a few months ago. It's really amazing.
Skins used to be a purely cosmetic thing.. Literally, as you point out, just changing the appearance of things, and only that. This is naturally what happens when people add skinning functionality to their pre-existing applications as an afterthought. More and more these days, coders are building their apps from the start with skinning in mind, to allow things beyond simple cosmetic changes. Nowadays, we're talking full modification of the interface itself. Anything and everything can be rearranged, reshaped, and moved, changed and resized to suit the user's own preferences. In some cases, the functionality of the underlying application can even be added to, with the introduction of a new skin.
Here are some resources you might want to look at in the meantime.
Deskmod
Skinz.org
dTOP
Customize.org
Ciao ciao,
Bowie J. Poag
I agree with the article in most respects, but I have a different take on where it's all going. IMHO, the future of UI design isn't in global adherence to a standard dictated by a company. The future of UI design is where applications adhere to the user's own preferences. That seems to be the logical direction of things right now (well, the last few years at least).. See, everyone wants cars, but some people want Ferarris, and some people want Toyotas. We're in the Model T era of UI design. Little black boxes with wagon wheels.
There will be an article in next month's Wired regarding the skinning scene. If you want to see where real UI design is going, have a look at it. Makes a good compendium to this article.
My $0.02, (and Propaganda is open, btw. Click the link)
Bowie J. Poag
I'm not gonna jump on the "I knew this 3 days ago" bandwagon, but I did. :) Infact, I listened to my shortwave last night before I went to bed, and overheard a conversation between 3 HAM radio operators about it. They apparently didnt think it was gonna be a big deal compared to other similar occurances in the past.
Bowie J. Poag
Quick question.
Are you retarded?
Bowie J. Poag
Its not a yes or no question. Its a question of human nature. Regardless of how unbaised we claim to be, ultimately we ALL end up being pushed and throttled and nudged to one side over another. You, me, everyone. Writers, third parties, the whole lot.
Here's an interesting tidbit of reality for example: Lets suppose our very own CmdrTaco was to write a review of some sort. I've had several (private) conversations with Malda by email..He's done an admirable job of trying to convince me that he remains totally unbiased, despite the connections he has to his employers, despite his money, and despite his fame. In Rob's mind, he's managing to offset the pressures, and doing as best a job he can NOT to be affected by it all.
Rob is human, which means he's affected by different pressures in a number of subtle ways. Unfortunately, the fact that hes sitting on a crapload of money means that he cant possibly be as "hungry" as someone who hasn't made it yet. The tainting has already taken place. It can be masked with effort, but its effect is irreversible. Rob can no longer care about Linux as much as someone who hasnt yet made it to the promised land. Rob, despite how much he tries to, cannot be unbiased when it comes to issues surrounding VA. They cut his paycheck every two weeks. The influences exerted on him can be counteracted -- But that doesn't erase the fact that the overall equation has been tampered with.
Rob + Bias Correction != Old Rob.
YOU + Bias Correction != Old You.
The proof is fairly abundant here. The very thing that is driving Linux right now is the same thing thats corrupting it. Greed. The psychotic need to continually put yourself an inch above your competitors..Until that stops, the ball will keep rolling, and we'll eventually become what we originally despised.
Don't leave it up to the marketing department. Leave it up to the users. They'll decide.
Bowie J. Poag
My name is Bowie J. Poag.... J, not T. :)
The point I was trying to make was this: Very few people have anything to complain about when it comes to KDE's aesthetic qualities. It looks nice, and runs nice. The only thing standing in the way of KDE's mainstream success is the hangup they've got with the licensing issues surrounding Qt. It borders on the idiotic. Theyre trying to make money off licensing the libraries, when they could make 1000x more money by getting KDE out there, and in the hands of the public. Its like stopping two feet before the finish line to tie your damn shoes.. its rediculous.
Troll Tech has only themselves to blame for the lack of acceptance of KDE. Licensing issues scare OSS developers. Its a fact. So long as Troll Tech insists on scaring off the developers, GNOME will creep closer and closer to beating them at their own game.
The whole thing is just rediculous. As a Linux developer, which would you rather do? Pay cash for Qt, or develop with gtk for free? See what I mean?
Bowie J. Poag
Wooo, lets all be afraaaaaid of the holding company! Gimmie a break. If you dont like a company, you have a constitutionally protected right to say whatever the hell you want about that company, provided you dont cross the line into slander. You can get up on a soapbox, but you cant yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater.
Anyone who tells you otherwise is either ignorant, or is lying to you.
Bowie J. Poag
You know, i'd like to see some hard numbers as to just how many people have actually purchased a Qt License from Troll Tech.. And, more specifically, if that number is sufficiently large enough to really warrant keeping Qt something other than GPL'ed.
The only thing standing in the way (as I see it) of KDE being the dominant desktop for Linux is this persistant, irritating, annoying, pointless debate over the nature of the Qt libraries. Its a boat anchor that has been dragged behind KDE for far, far too long. Get it over with, guys.
Its only by pure luck that GNOME development has been centered more on building pointless foo-foo options as of late, rather can concentrating on basic usability issues. Both efforts have boat anchors. One has to do with politics, the other has to do with direction.
Want KDE to win? Make Qt free. Game over.
Bowie J. Poag
Ever been inside a Home Depot? Its pretty much the same story.. You cant find your way out there either.
Bowie J. Poag
Something to think sbout, perhaps?
I'm convinced the whole OSS movement will inevitably fail. It has its own demise built right into it..As more and more people begin to realize the somewhat disturbing truth about things (ie. people are making money off what you've done, and advancing their careers off YOUR hard work, while you get nothing) the whole system will slowly grind to a halt and fail.
By the time that happens, fortunes will have already been made, and the ones who corrupted the process by introducing greed into the equation will have already moved on to something else.
OSS only works when the primary motivation of its participants is fun. When that motivation goes from fun to *greed*, the whole process begins a slow and irreversible decay as more and more people refuse to play along. Thats my $0.02..If I didnt believe it, I wouldnt have typed it.
Fresh out of the yoke,
Bowie J. Poag
Well, I'm sure my experience with computers in the classroom is a similar one to many others here.. If it weren't for my librarian (Brenda Sand, Prairie Elementary School, circa 1979-1984) wheeling a giant old black & white Magnavox TV into the room hooked up to an Apple II, and teaching us the bare essentials of BASIC programming when I was like 6 or 7, then I probably would never have had anything in life I could really latch onto and enjoy for as long as i've enjoyed computers.
I used to stay after school and play around with the Apple II's until the damn janitors kicked me out at 5:30. I was lucky, tho, I only lived two houses away from the school, and I knew how to cross the street without getting killed.
Having 3 measly underpowered personal computers hooked up to black & white TVs gave me a truse sense of awe among other things..along with it, a sense of responsibility, creativity, logic, respect, and imagination, and power. I was the youngest kid in the neighborhood growing up, and having that sort of thing to pour my time and energy into was unbelievably important to me, in retrospect.
Taking computers out of schools is like saying "Screw books! We have television!".. not the smartest strategy when it comes to education. Schools should be places where truckloads of information are available in a wide array of forms. Im pretty sure I was the only kid in school who understood what BLOAD meant, but it didn't matter. I learned 10x more with computers in schools as I was growing up as I would have learned without them.
A good thing -- Because with that knowledge, at the age of 26 I can pretty much choose where I live and choose what I do with my life. Many people with educations less comprehensive than mine don't have that luxury.
Information isn't evil. However, the teachers--the people who control access to that information are largely ignorant when it comes to computers. When you have that sort of situation, where the access to information is controlled by people ignorant about the technology involved (as many teacher's will readilly admit to being) THAT is the problem. The people in charge, not the computers. Computers are just tools, like chalkboards, overhead projectors or books. If you dont know how to use them, the information they hold never sees the light of day.
My $0.02,
Bowie J. Poag
Neither of those discuss anything regarding the reason why ColdStorage was mysteriously shitcanned out of nowhere, and what communication Guntharp or McCombs had with Brian Biles. Until that is settled, the song remains the same.
Bowie J. Poag
Really. About the only thing Corel PhotoPaint 3 has over GIMP is a more socially-acceptable name. :)
:) Personally, I think this is more of a mistake than a good move for Corel. Doing so more or less admits to the world that they can't compete in the same market. Countless hours of development down the tubes with no way of recouping costs = a bad thing.
Its hard to sell a product when your competitor is giving theirs away for free. Just ask Netscape.
Bowie J. Poag
In your reply, you said:I am of course working on what I was told to me by trae and the rest. Those guys aren't talking because they've already talked with you and put their views before the world to see.
/.? "
This isn't true. I've repeatedly asked Tony Guntharp and Trae McCombs to compare notes, going back as far as November '99. Never got a straight answer out of either of them. Contrary to your claim, neither of them have "put their views before the world to see". You're paid to do their work for them. Thats your job.
You also said:
"> My ethics didn't go out the window just because VA went public. If VA was that kind of company do you think that you'd still have an account on
Malda told me in an email not too long ago that he was feeling some pressure to do just that several times. It would be sort of stupid of you, because it would prove everything i've been trying to say in the first place. As for complaining about VA on a site OWNED by VA, where the hell else is there to go? Linux.com? Nope, VA owns that. Freshmeat? Nope, VA owns that too. Good luck.
And, you later said:
"So answer me this, you told everyone here you were developing a GTK widget repository, something that sourceforge was not designed to compete with. Is this true? You said you would "do some project hosting"."
We were clear with Trae from the beginning. We were attemping to unite the developers under one umbrella. We were going to do that by offering a giant component stockpile for GTK & QT developers. Music, graphics, soundbites, code, the works. Read the interview I did with Linux.com in November '99 if you don't believe me, its all there in black and white. In exchange for developers adopting our work, we would offer them free hosting space for their projects. Once we had amassed enough support, we felt that we would have been enough of an assett to VA that they would hire us. This was the entire reason I agreed to begin work on the project in the first place. 500,000 pageviews sustained for 6 months straight would guarantee me a position at VA, Trae claimed. Later I found out that Trae is NOT in a position to make such offers, and he had done this sort of thing to a number of people, and burned a number of people.
If you were VA, why would you bother to wait for a group of volunteers to do the work, when you could just as easilly put some of your own guys on the task 9 to 5? Why hire a dozen new people when you can do it with 3 that you've already got?
Now you know why Tony Guntharp doesn't talk, and Trae McCombs doesn't talk.
Keep trying Chris, you're starting to get it, I think.
Bowie J. Poag
You're right, Chris. I'm sorry. VA's actions are above questioning. They are God, and to question God is heresy. Infact, anyone who even raises an eyebrow is insane, and must be burned at the stake. At the very least, VA's detractors should be dipped in water ; shall they sink, then they are pure -- shall they float, they are witches, and should be burnt at the stake! Burn the witches!!
How terribly misguided i've been, Chris. Now that you've shown me the light, I can ignore the two dozen or so emails i've recieved over the past 6 months from others who've been similarly screwed by the company you work for. As you point out, theyre all liars too. Then there's the matter of SourceForge being a ripoff of System 12, well, I guess I can forget about that too. After all, it was only 7 months worth of work and preparation on behalf of myself and the others. Water under the bridge, my friend.
Why? Simple! As you point out, its unreasonable for me or anyone else to even question the motives and business practices of your company.
sarcasm(off);
The fact is, Chris, you weren't even there. You werent involved with the dealings I had with Trae McCombs and others at VA during the timespan of April-December of '99. The only "truth" you know is what you've gleaned from your co-workers trying to cover their ass.
You can hide behind the GPL all you want. You know for a fact that it doesn't protect developers from having their work co-opted by a company such as VA, and putting their full-time employees to work on the task of replicating the work of volunteers. Soon the volunteers happily chipping away at the problem wont matter, and the idea they created becomes an intellectual property of the company. Thats precisely what happened with System 12. I think thats pretty much clear to everyone by now. McCombs isnt talking, Guntharp isn't talking, Biles isn't talking. Theyre too busy covering their collective asses.
To say VA is above doing the same thing to other OSS projects is laughable. Any company will do that. VA in particular has poured millions into an ant farm they expect to bear fruit for the company. The instant a good idea pops up that is of benefit to the company, VA will co-opt it, and leave the volunteers in the dust.
I cant speak for anyone else here, but you're insulting my intelligence with your froth. You're paid by VA to blow smoke up people's asses. Thats a fact. PAID. As in, VA gives you money to follow me around waving a big "Don't believe him! He's a WITCH! Burn the witch!!" sign. If you were actually impartial, i'd love to talk with you. Unfortunately, you arent.
You're a mouthpiece for a company. That means you're not free to say anything you want. You'de lose your job. I'm not interested in "making peace" with the assholes in your company. By the same token, I dont have any beef with you, personally, Chris. Infact, I've heard you're a nice guy in real life. When you take your tie off at the end of the day, you're a swell guy. The only problem is, its part of your job description to put out the flames. If you were truly objective about the situation, I'd love to clue you in.
The thing is, I refuse to believe you sleep with your tie on.
Bowie J. Poag
Why not? I could quite happily be a thorn in VA's side until they own up to what they did to us. Rather than do that, they protect their corporate image by sicking DiBona and VA's Department of Caring on anything bad to say about the company. Can you blame them? You don't have to be involved, really...so why do you even care what is said either way?
If you don't like me, dont follow what i'm doing. If you dont like my work, dont use it. Don't believe me? No problem -- You're not obligated to even listen. The only "sinking" here comes from people who don't have enough stones to call VA's practices into question.
Bowie J. Poag
Ha, interesting -- I didn't know LWN got gobbled up. Thanks for the heads up.
Bowie J. Poag
Thats all nice, Chris, but it doesn't answer the question.
Why is SourceForge lacking something as fundemental as a security policy for its users, to protect them, and not you?
..And has lacked it for 5 months straight?
Bowie J. Poag