<Microsoft> HEY GUYS I GOT THIS NEW THING CALLED SENDER-ID, YOU SHOULD INSTALL IT. ITS GREAT! <anonymous> uhm. Isn't this just like SPF, with patents? <spf>:o <apache-foundation> We aren't doing it. <debian> No dice. <ietf> Not in its current state. <Microsoft> CMON GUYS ITS WICKED. IT WILL STOP SPAMMERS! WE WON'T USE OUR PATENTS WE SWEAR. WE JUST FILED THEM...IN CASE. <AOL> UHM. WE'RE NOT DOING IT EITHER. <spf> ohh SNAP! <ietf> lol <apache-foundation> rofl <debian> hahahaha <Microsoft> I DON'T GET IT. <ietf> we know.:/
I agree completely. Darren is being an idiot here. OpenIPF will become more popular then IPF, just like SSH. OpenSSH is a more solid, less restrictive program then SSH. More people use OpenSSH now then any other SSH program. Just as i'm sure OpenIPF will be in turn. soon enough all anyone will remember about the original "ipf guy" will be that he turned into a jerk and openipf came about. regardless of the actual circumstances.
gg darren.
do pornographic stories count? they are a form a pornography. are stories about pornography indistinguishable from rape as well? what if its a story about 2 married consenting adults having sex? no-one is harmed from reading or writing a story last time i heard. what about women porn authors? who's soul is "killed" or "burned" the author or the reader? or both? speaking of which.
let me get this straight. pornography kills women's souls, and men get away with a simple burning? that seams unfair. no wonder women are always so pissed off about porn. i guess i'm glad i'm a man, i'd rather my soul burnt then killed. i'll have to re-read the bible again i must have missed the bit about porn and who's soul gets burned and who's gets killed and all that jazz. i was un-aware the "souls" could be "killed".
is it worse to you to look at the pornography or pick up a prostitute? which is the lesser evil according to you? because i have to think, if there wasn't any pornographic movies/pictures/stories, more people would be picking up prostitutes. if more ppl start picking more prostitutes up, there are going to be more prostitutes.
pornography has been around much longer then the internet, and its not going anywhere, anytime soon. don't blame yahoo for selling stuff that people want buy.
Programming has gotten allot easier, whilst the programs themselves have gotten more complex.
Back in the day, there was no such thing as open source. So seeing other people's code was a rare thing. People were not very open to sharing code either. As well, to program something well you needed a dash of assembler here and there. When I tell young programmers I wrote my own 32 bit protected mode extender for dos, in 100% assembler on a 386 they look at me funny. That level of knowledge and understanding of the computer and processor are no longer needed to make complex programs.
I look at programs made in Visual Basic, that are very nice. Impressive even. When I see the source code and how to create it, it makes me laugh because it is all so easy. The programming languages, and availability of other peoples code has made programming in itself much easier. Its the programs that are more complex, and they are more complex because its easier to program, and we have more resources to play with.
Learning a new programming language 20 years ago, was going through god awful books written by people who should have never written pamphlets let alone books. Manually typing out thousands of lines of code examples in backs of books, and doing a whole boatload of guess work. Or reading a engineers book about a processor and extrapolating programming information from it. Now I can just download someone else's source code and learn from it. I learned Turbo Pascal (long time ago) from just looking at other people's programs. I felt like I was cheating. Like I wasn't really 'learning' the language. But that is how people learn languages now, because they can. That wasn't there before.
Its not just gotten easier, its gotten WAY easier.
For fun lets say this package works great. I tell my isp to go and get several dozen of these devices. We need coverage for all of our multiple transit and peering points (so we need to support FastE, T1, OC3 ATM&POS, OC12 ATM&POS, OC48 ATM&POS, and GigE cards (Cisco, Juniper, and Extreme Networks edition). All those different types of interfaces and the speed of which they operate makes this a expensive venture, but I have no problem convincing the big cheese that its worth his money; because this will prevent ddos attacks. So we go ahead and spend several million dollars obtaining/training/installing these devices and everything is tickity boo.
Meanwhile, Someone goes to the SAR (Smurf Amplifier Registry www.powertech.no/smurf ) and chooses the top 10 stupid networks (conveniently located on the front page no less) and launches a huge distributed smurf attack on my isp. No worries though we just spent several million dollars on this equipment that will protect us right?
Wrong. None of the traffic reaches my internal network, BUT my connections to the internet are flooded with icmp echo replies. Yes they are being blocked but so much smurf traffic is coming through, my normal traffic can't get in or out either. Creating a... distributed denial of service attack, the very thing I just convinced the big cheese to spend several million dollars on so that we would be safe from it.
Now who's head is going to roll? The company that made the product or the guy that recommended we buy the product?
Their hearts are in the right place, but they aren't seeing the big picture. imo anyways.
I have a Sun Ultra5 (360 mhz) with 256 mb ram, and a sunpci card with 256 mb ram, and a k6 400. It is pretty much unusable. I hate it. For spending the same amount of money I can get a PC run linux and windows under Vmware, and I find it's much, much, faster. Granted this is another 140 mhz to play with, but I don't think its going to be that much faster.
The statement comes from a T-shirt I purchased from a Demo party that was held in Canada (Crash 1997).
A demo programmer is making code that is art, no ifs ands or buts. Take a look at any 4K intro from any demo party. These are artistic presentations (no audio) that are not only cool to look at but they are compact in size. Some "Hello World" programs take up more then 4096 bytes by themselves, it takes an incredible amount of talent to cram a Quake engine into 4096 bytes, but people do it. Not to accomplish a task, but to see if they can do it, perhaps to show off, either way it is artistic.
Demo programming aside look at obfuscation contests, there are competitions for code that looks neat (the perl dolphin code that now has a tshirt from thinkgeek comes to mind) to code that looks like its doing 1 thing, when it really does another.
The 256 byte game programming contest that was held on IRC a several years ago (#coders) was inspiring. Several dozen people (including myself) created playable games in less space then what this paragraph takes up. That is incredible, and the code is inspiring.
I like looking at regular art, paintings, buildings, nature, and whatnot. But, no regular art has made me quiver with enlightenment like when I figure out and understand a complex piece of code, or a major optimization, or a new algorithm that shaves 220 cycles off the inner loop.
Haven't you ever looked at someone else's code and thought "eww gross. He/She should have done this like that".
I disagree completely. Theo is not being an asshole. He is being realistic.
I think Ylönen is just going after OpenSSH because several bsd and linux distributions are including OpenSSH with the basic install, and therefore taking away his market share.
I have no respect for Ylönen, he made a free product and everything was good. Decided to make some money off it, and changed a free product into a commercial product. After that, someone came along took his old free product and expanded upon it, no big deal. but when this other _free_ product became more popular then his commercial product he stats bringing out the copyright crap. get real.
Ylönen is making me lose respect for Finnish programmers (land of demo coders)..
Web pages are created to be seen. If you are John Doe with your webpage on toy trains, or if you are a marketing consultant for a giant company. Your underlying goal is to have that webpage viewed regardless of content.
So, why in the world would you limit your audience by making browser or operating system specific code in your webpage? If your goal is to have that webpage viewed, why would you limit your available audience when you didn't have to?
Perhaps the groups that use other browsers are small in comparison but who cares? If you can make it work for everyone why wouldn't you?
a few years ago I remember reading that when they got too small, they could replace the silicon with galium arsinide (GaAs), and gain major performance increases. Anyone know anything about that?
I agree, at least, in Canada (well, Calgary) the number of technical workers that are white just so happen to outnumber the ones that are black 20 to 1. When I hire, I hire on skill not color (and the ability to speak clear and fluent English.).
For all the lan parties, demo parties, and conferences that I've been to over the last 10 years, I would say 90% of the attendants were always white males. Even the European demo parties I've been to with over 3000 people attending, still 90% white males. Even the couple Comdex's I've been too have been very close.
I don't think that the above is a racist comment but a comment based on my personal observations.
(1) I have been looking into the new linux 2.4 kernel that is coming out, and its new advanced routing sections look very impressive. Specifically the policy based routing (including user based routing), traffic sharing/load balancing, GRE Tunnels, and class based queueing (SFQ,RED,TBF,etc). Is OpenBSD going to include advanced routing techniques similar to the new linux kernel any time soon?
(2)Juniper networks are using FreeBSD for some of their routing equipment, what do you think of the possibility of an OpenBSD based router?
(3)Bastille linux (a linux hardening program) is getting some decent comments lately. What are your thoughts on their approach to securing an operating system? That is, a program that is run post install and hardens the operating system based on how secure the user wants to be.
how does the Canadian goverment expect to govern something that is not moderated?
There are no rules regarding being a ISP. You get some money and some routers and whatnot and you start handing out the bandwidth. I'm sure each transit carrier or peering link has their own little ruleset and whatnot, but in my experience they are not enforced (not even slightly).
There is no rule saying I can't be a retarded ISP and leave on something silly such as ip directed broadcasts and make my entire network a smurf amplifier, or other such moronic things. Its not considered a good thing to do, but there is no rules on how one should run their network. There are a tonne of suggestions and guides and recomendations, but no rules; as people run different networks for all kinds of reasons.
Furthermore if there were rules the rules would have to be immense. To what degree would the government step in? How to configure devices so they use bandwidth efficiently? access lists that prioritize traffic perhaps? what traffic would qualify I wonder? How about forced implementation of network intrusion devices? or even what routing protocols one uses. there is way to much to lay a ruleset for. unless the rule is absurd and is something like, customers must have XX kb/s each. Well, its entirely possible to provision XX kb/s per customer and still have a lousy network because the network isn't designed and implemented properly. Yes I have XX kb/s per customer, but because my network is wide open 70% of my traffic is ICMP echo replies destined to other networks, so my customers are slow. Technically I follow the goverment guidlines, but it doesn't matter. That rule wouldn't make the slightest difference in a modern network. Is the goverment going to step in and tell companies how to build their own networks? or how to run them thereafter? I don't think so. or even if they do, no big isp is going to listen.
here is a reply from a co-worker, of whom I sent the article.
There are several statements in that article that are incorrect. Perhaps the biggest is:
"This growth results from the proliferation of Internet devices, each of which requires an address"
No, the growth results from people not adhering to the (once upon a time) "rules" for how to announce networks. The idea of announcing a/24 all around the planet was, at one time, a completely laughable idea. Nowadays, with everybody assuming that they have as much knowledge and capability as everyone else, people have the attitude that will announce whatever the darn well please and nobody can tell them different.
Until the day comes when there is one governing body for the Internet, the whole thing will just be a toy to keep trade rags in business. Imagine if all the little cable or phone companies decided for themselves about what frequencies they used or what area codes they used. Same thing.
now me: Juniper, Cisco, and Extreme Networks all have products that default come with 256 MB, and they are all upgradable. thats a fairly big routing table. With Juniper leading the way with their BSD based routers, and the new linux kernel supporting all the advanced routing options, we are going to see some cheap linux/bsd based routers in the very near future. and because it can be PC based (provided you had a nice motherboard with a very wide bus) you could easily and cheaply add 4 gigs of ram. now THAT is a huge routing table. a dual or quad 1000 Mhz pc based router.. Sounds pretty good to me.
I work for a large communications company in Canada, and when we take the "On Call Cell phone" we get paid 2 hours of regular time each day we take the phone even if we never get called (up to a maximum of 8 hours per week), during that time if we get called its all overtime pay minimum 1 hour (those 1 minute conversations are great). If we work more then 4 hours, the next 4 hours are double time.
There are people at my company that are on call 24/7, but they get huge pay increases for doing so.
well i'll be bamfoozled. http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/alter nates/ looks like there is a flash player for pretty much everything../me formats windows partition that was kept around only for watching flash stuff.
Slashdot Mirror
I agree completely. Darren is being an idiot here. OpenIPF will become more popular then IPF, just like SSH. OpenSSH is a more solid, less restrictive program then SSH. More people use OpenSSH now then any other SSH program. Just as i'm sure OpenIPF will be in turn. soon enough all anyone will remember about the original "ipf guy" will be that he turned into a jerk and openipf came about. regardless of the actual circumstances. gg darren.
Pornography is indistinguishable from rape.
do pornographic stories count? they are a form a pornography. are stories about pornography indistinguishable from rape as well? what if its a story about 2 married consenting adults having sex? no-one is harmed from reading or writing a story last time i heard. what about women porn authors? who's soul is "killed" or "burned" the author or the reader? or both? speaking of which.
Pornography kills women's souls. Pornography burns men's souls.
let me get this straight. pornography kills women's souls, and men get away with a simple burning? that seams unfair. no wonder women are always so pissed off about porn. i guess i'm glad i'm a man, i'd rather my soul burnt then killed. i'll have to re-read the bible again i must have missed the bit about porn and who's soul gets burned and who's gets killed and all that jazz. i was un-aware the "souls" could be "killed".
is it worse to you to look at the pornography or pick up a prostitute? which is the lesser evil according to you? because i have to think, if there wasn't any pornographic movies/pictures/stories, more people would be picking up prostitutes. if more ppl start picking more prostitutes up, there are going to be more prostitutes.
pornography has been around much longer then the internet, and its not going anywhere, anytime soon. don't blame yahoo for selling stuff that people want buy.
I disagree.
Programming has gotten allot easier, whilst the programs themselves have gotten more complex.
Back in the day, there was no such thing as open source. So seeing other people's code was a rare thing. People were not very open to sharing code either. As well, to program something well you needed a dash of assembler here and there. When I tell young programmers I wrote my own 32 bit protected mode extender for dos, in 100% assembler on a 386 they look at me funny. That level of knowledge and understanding of the computer and processor are no longer needed to make complex programs.
I look at programs made in Visual Basic, that are very nice. Impressive even. When I see the source code and how to create it, it makes me laugh because it is all so easy. The programming languages, and availability of other peoples code has made programming in itself much easier. Its the programs that are more complex, and they are more complex because its easier to program, and we have more resources to play with.
Learning a new programming language 20 years ago, was going through god awful books written by people who should have never written pamphlets let alone books. Manually typing out thousands of lines of code examples in backs of books, and doing a whole boatload of guess work. Or reading a engineers book about a processor and extrapolating programming information from it. Now I can just download someone else's source code and learn from it. I learned Turbo Pascal (long time ago) from just looking at other people's programs. I felt like I was cheating. Like I wasn't really 'learning' the language. But that is how people learn languages now, because they can. That wasn't there before.
Its not just gotten easier, its gotten WAY easier.
For fun lets say this package works great. I tell my isp to go and get several dozen of these devices. We need coverage for all of our multiple transit and peering points (so we need to support FastE, T1, OC3 ATM&POS, OC12 ATM&POS, OC48 ATM&POS, and GigE cards (Cisco, Juniper, and Extreme Networks edition). All those different types of interfaces and the speed of which they operate makes this a expensive venture, but I have no problem convincing the big cheese that its worth his money; because this will prevent ddos attacks. So we go ahead and spend several million dollars obtaining/training/installing these devices and everything is tickity boo.
... distributed denial of service attack, the very thing I just convinced the big cheese to spend several million dollars on so that we would be safe from it.
Meanwhile, Someone goes to the SAR (Smurf Amplifier Registry www.powertech.no/smurf ) and chooses the top 10 stupid networks (conveniently located on the front page no less) and launches a huge distributed smurf attack on my isp. No worries though we just spent several million dollars on this equipment that will protect us right?
Wrong. None of the traffic reaches my internal network, BUT my connections to the internet are flooded with icmp echo replies. Yes they are being blocked but so much smurf traffic is coming through, my normal traffic can't get in or out either. Creating a
Now who's head is going to roll? The company that made the product or the guy that recommended we buy the product?
Their hearts are in the right place, but they aren't seeing the big picture. imo anyways.
I have a Sun Ultra5 (360 mhz) with 256 mb ram, and a sunpci card with 256 mb ram, and a k6 400. It is pretty much unusable. I hate it. For spending the same amount of money I can get a PC run linux and windows under Vmware, and I find it's much, much, faster. Granted this is another 140 mhz to play with, but I don't think its going to be that much faster.
just my opinion.
The statement comes from a T-shirt I purchased from a Demo party that was held in Canada (Crash 1997).
A demo programmer is making code that is art, no ifs ands or buts. Take a look at any 4K intro from any demo party. These are artistic presentations (no audio) that are not only cool to look at but they are compact in size. Some "Hello World" programs take up more then 4096 bytes by themselves, it takes an incredible amount of talent to cram a Quake engine into 4096 bytes, but people do it. Not to accomplish a task, but to see if they can do it, perhaps to show off, either way it is artistic.
Demo programming aside look at obfuscation contests, there are competitions for code that looks neat (the perl dolphin code that now has a tshirt from thinkgeek comes to mind) to code that looks like its doing 1 thing, when it really does another.
The 256 byte game programming contest that was held on IRC a several years ago (#coders) was inspiring. Several dozen people (including myself) created playable games in less space then what this paragraph takes up. That is incredible, and the code is inspiring.
I like looking at regular art, paintings, buildings, nature, and whatnot. But, no regular art has made me quiver with enlightenment like when I figure out and understand a complex piece of code, or a major optimization, or a new algorithm that shaves 220 cycles off the inner loop.
Haven't you ever looked at someone else's code and thought "eww gross. He/She should have done this like that".
Code is Art.
I disagree completely. Theo is not being an asshole. He is being realistic.
I think Ylönen is just going after OpenSSH because several bsd and linux distributions are including OpenSSH with the basic install, and therefore taking away his market share.
I have no respect for Ylönen, he made a free product and everything was good. Decided to make some money off it, and changed a free product into a commercial product. After that, someone came along took his old free product and expanded upon it, no big deal. but when this other _free_ product became more popular then his commercial product he stats bringing out the copyright crap. get real.
Ylönen is making me lose respect for Finnish programmers (land of demo coders)..
Web pages are created to be seen. If you are John Doe with your webpage on toy trains, or if you are a marketing consultant for a giant company. Your underlying goal is to have that webpage viewed regardless of content.
So, why in the world would you limit your audience by making browser or operating system specific code in your webpage? If your goal is to have that webpage viewed, why would you limit your available audience when you didn't have to?
Perhaps the groups that use other browsers are small in comparison but who cares? If you can make it work for everyone why wouldn't you?
a few years ago I remember reading that when they got too small, they could replace the silicon with galium arsinide (GaAs), and gain major performance increases. Anyone know anything about that?
I agree, at least, in Canada (well, Calgary) the number of technical workers that are white just so happen to outnumber the ones that are black 20 to 1. When I hire, I hire on skill not color (and the ability to speak clear and fluent English.).
For all the lan parties, demo parties, and conferences that I've been to over the last 10 years, I would say 90% of the attendants were always white males. Even the European demo parties I've been to with over 3000 people attending, still 90% white males. Even the couple Comdex's I've been too have been very close.
I don't think that the above is a racist comment but a comment based on my personal observations.
First off, great work on OpenBSD.
(1) I have been looking into the new linux 2.4 kernel that is coming out, and its new advanced routing sections look very impressive. Specifically the policy based routing (including user based routing), traffic sharing/load balancing, GRE Tunnels, and class based queueing (SFQ,RED,TBF,etc). Is OpenBSD going to include advanced routing techniques similar to the new linux kernel any time soon?
(2)Juniper networks are using FreeBSD for some of their routing equipment, what do you think of the possibility of an OpenBSD based router?
(3)Bastille linux (a linux hardening program) is getting some decent comments lately. What are your thoughts on their approach to securing an operating system? That is, a program that is run post install and hardens the operating system based on how secure the user wants to be.
Keep up the great work.
how does the Canadian goverment expect to govern something that is not moderated?
There are no rules regarding being a ISP. You get some money and some routers and whatnot and you start handing out the bandwidth. I'm sure each transit carrier or peering link has their own little ruleset and whatnot, but in my experience they are not enforced (not even slightly).
There is no rule saying I can't be a retarded ISP and leave on something silly such as ip directed broadcasts and make my entire network a smurf amplifier, or other such moronic things. Its not considered a good thing to do, but there is no rules on how one should run their network. There are a tonne of suggestions and guides and recomendations, but no rules; as people run different networks for all kinds of reasons.
Furthermore if there were rules the rules would have to be immense. To what degree would the government step in? How to configure devices so they use bandwidth efficiently? access lists that prioritize traffic perhaps? what traffic would qualify I wonder? How about forced implementation of network intrusion devices? or even what routing protocols one uses. there is way to much to lay a ruleset for. unless the rule is absurd and is something like, customers must have XX kb/s each. Well, its entirely possible to provision XX kb/s per customer and still have a lousy network because the network isn't designed and implemented properly. Yes I have XX kb/s per customer, but because my network is wide open 70% of my traffic is ICMP echo replies destined to other networks, so my customers are slow. Technically I follow the goverment guidlines, but it doesn't matter. That rule wouldn't make the slightest difference in a modern network. Is the goverment going to step in and tell companies how to build their own networks? or how to run them thereafter? I don't think so. or even if they do, no big isp is going to listen.
You can't govern the internet.
here is a reply from a co-worker, of whom I sent the article.
/24 all around the planet was, at one time, a completely laughable idea. Nowadays, with everybody assuming that they have as much knowledge and capability as everyone else, people have the attitude that will announce whatever the darn well please and nobody can tell them different.
There are several statements in that article that are incorrect. Perhaps the biggest is:
"This growth results from the proliferation of Internet devices, each of which requires an address"
No, the growth results from people not adhering to the (once upon a time) "rules" for how to announce networks. The idea of announcing a
Until the day comes when there is one governing body for the Internet, the whole thing will just be a toy to keep trade rags in business. Imagine if all the little cable or phone companies decided for themselves about what frequencies they used or what area codes they used. Same thing.
now me: Juniper, Cisco, and Extreme Networks all have products that default come with 256 MB, and they are all upgradable. thats a fairly big routing table. With Juniper leading the way with their BSD based routers, and the new linux kernel supporting all the advanced routing options, we are going to see some cheap linux/bsd based routers in the very near future. and because it can be PC based (provided you had a nice motherboard with a very wide bus) you could easily and cheaply add 4 gigs of ram. now THAT is a huge routing table. a dual or quad 1000 Mhz pc based router.. Sounds pretty good to me.
I work for a large communications company in Canada, and when we take the "On Call Cell phone" we get paid 2 hours of regular time each day we take the phone even if we never get called (up to a maximum of 8 hours per week), during that time if we get called its all overtime pay minimum 1 hour (those 1 minute conversations are great). If we work more then 4 hours, the next 4 hours are double time.
There are people at my company that are on call 24/7, but they get huge pay increases for doing so.
well i'll be bamfoozled. http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/alter nates/ looks like there is a flash player for pretty much everything.. /me formats windows partition that was kept around only for watching flash stuff.
I'm sure there will be a flash version for windows platform, but will there be a flash plug in for the linux version of netscape 6?
should we organize a mass spam to macromedia to get working on a flash version for linux? or am i in the dark and there already is one?
No star control 2? What a jip.