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Racism At Microsoft?
chandas sent in linkage to a story running at ZD Net about
rascism at Microsoft. Apparently seven former and current black employees want $5 billion, saying that Microsoft fosters a hostile work environment. Is racism an issue in the tech industry? I've been reading Chuck D's autobiography (He is smart as hell) and he talks a lot about racism in the sports and music industries so this subject has been on my mind a lot lately, but it never even crossed my mind that it might be an issue in the tech industry. Of course, as a pasty white boy I probably wouldn't even notice even though I've always thought of the internet as colorblind.
Just wanted to add my comments as a representative of a minority at Microsoft. I'm visually impaired (blind in non-PC speak), so am usually aware of when I'm in an environment of people who are closed-minded to those who are unlike themselves. MS is not one of these places. I've been with two product groups at MS, and while I can say that there were only a few black individuals in each, there were lots of Asians, eastern Europeans, people with disabilities, etc. I've never heard anyone make claims like those in the article. The general belief is that if you're qualified, the job is yours. The fact is that there are few black individuals in IT (for one reason or another). Personally, MS has purchased any adaptive equipment/software that I've needed to do my job, reps from Corporate Diversity are always e-mailing disabled employees to ask how they can help us in working better at our jobs and improve MS software for external users who are disabled, MS holds countless internal events regarding software accessibility, work place diversity, etc, and I always feel that I'm being treated as any other member of my team. I know that many SlashDot readers have low opinions of MS, but life, at least in the product groups, is very relaxed and friendly. I suspect that these people are simply trying to blame their poor performance on something they can not change (color) rather than attributing it to their own personal failings.
I worked as an engineer for a defense contractor about ten years ago. There were three black male engineers out of about 80 technical staff; one was very cabable and energetic, one was capable but spent half his time looking for racial discrimination to complain about, and one shouldn't have been allowed out of high school. The managers of that branch office were constantly interviewing black applicants because they were under quota pressure, but given the candidates the managers had a choice between an almost entirely white and asian technical staff and hiring someone who simply couldn't pull his weight. (Ironically, the #2 person in the office was a black man and #3 was a black woman, but they didn't count against the quota because they were management, not tech staff.)
As an industry programmer for the last ten years, I've worked with exactly no American black programmers. Plenty of non-whites, mostly Indian and Chinese. At the larger companies the managers were, as before, under pressure to hire black
techies, but again had the choice between not hiring the black candidates, and hiring them but pissing off the current employees who would have to carry their load.
FWIW, I'm white but I married a black woman.
And FIVE BILLION? Well, that just speaks for itself...
Couldn't agree more, I am so sick and tired of these people who want us to cry for them, and then go and sue everything in sight for ridiculous amounts of money. Should we believe they truly care about the issue if they're demanding that much money? Give me a break.
But whatever, it seems to be the latest trend in America now, had a bad childhood? sue your parents, failed a class? sue your teachers. How can anybody take these people seriously? Obviously they know MS is a cash cow, and they're trying to get in on it, I even have a hard time their accusations are even true.
You know, when it comes to racism, I have to towards something Chris Rock has said during several comedic acts. (Please note I am paraphrasing.) Blacks: Why do you complain so much? If you don't, like it, you can go back to Africa. Ain't nobody want to do that. Whites: You wouldn't want to be black. Not even the busboy in the back would want to be me (Chris Rock) and I'm rich. I know racism is not good and our country has gone through quite a bit of struggle to help accept other races into our culture. The time has come to stop citing race as a reason for not getting promoted. If you're not happy with what you're doing, there is nothing that forces you to do it. And if any blacks (I don't use African Americans since most of them have NEVER been to Africa) want to go back, they should feel free to do so.
If Tech companies (like Microsoft) in general were racist, then there wouldn't be so much clamour for H1B visas.
I honestly can't believe that anyone has the nerve to sue MS for racism. I am a caucasin and in my group it's only about 50% caucasin. This also happens to be on of the largest groups on campus. Microsoft has got to be one of the faires employers in terms of equal opportunity.
And surely if Microsoft's practice is worse than that at other companies then those employees could find work at a company that would realise their true worth.
But it just so happens that people have a right to be treated fairly and not face discrimination because of their skin color. If they are discriminated against, they have the right to sue. I would even argue they have a moral imperative to sue if it is within their means.
I think many of the posts on this topic suffer from the same logical problem: Techies value logic and assume others do, too. But racism is not logical. Therefore, techies cannot accept that racism exists.
Fortunately, there's a simple solution to this problem: Try talking to some black people in the tech industry.
It is true, discrimination is a regular practice at Microsoft. I work in Human Resources and I am responsible for determining whether or not an applicant is hired. We discriminate against many racial groups at Microsoft in the hiring process, we often hire less qualified black applicants over Asians, Indians and White applicants. We do this because we are scared to death we might get labeled as racists and get sued for billions of dollars, so we turn down many hard working, intelligent non-black applicants. We hire many incompetent black programmers who never fail to introduce bugs into our software, then we have to delete all their work and send the code to India to get it done correctly. We have found Indians to be the best programmers around.
Actually, the way I heard it, the origional law suit was brought by a guy who worked (and I assume, lived) in the DC area. He was a sales-type with MS's Federal division. I'd guess that a high percentage (30%-40%) of MS's employees are not employed at the Redmond campus. (Those numbers are a complete guess.)
not 7 people wanting 5 bills, but they want a class action for all current and former employees that have been discriminated again.
...Apparently seven former and current black employees want $5 billion...
Let me understand. They were formerly black, and they are currently black. And there are 14 of them: seven former and seven current. Yea, because 7 * (former + current) = 14; or is it 7 * former + current = 8 employees?
As a black man, I have to agree with the above comment. Black people are our own worse enemies.
Now I'm not excusing all the racists out there but blacks have not been the only mistreated people in America. Italians, Irish, Chinese, Jews, etc., have all struggled at times trying to live in a WASP world. Where they succeeded and Blacks failed is keeping the family and neighborhoods strong and sacrificing for the next generation.
Black people do more damage to their children than all the racist cops, judges and politicians in the world combined. From physical abuse (i was "whupped" regularly with extension cords leaving scars all over my body) to outright disregard for enforcing the virtues of education and hard work.
I remember when I graduated from elementary school and was promoted to the smartest class in junior high school which would have enabled me to skip the 7th grade, when i showed my mother the report card she yelled at me because she was busy. No congrats. No hug. No nothing.
This goes on all over black neighborhoods. It's very depressing. I don't really know if things are changing because the attitudes in inner cities are still very negative. People are still struggling even in these boom times and I fear what happens when the slowdown starts up again. Violence and apathy will soar again.
Black people need to get rid Jesse Jackson. He has been the biggest reason that blacks have stagnated. He continually defends indefensible issues and never talks to black people about what we need to do to correct our condition.
I don't have a problem with Sharpton and Farrakhan so much, because they're really fringe players in the black community and they're not as bad as Jackson in terms of absolving black people of their responsibilies. The Milion Man march was actually a very positive event.
Black people need a strong role model. Someone who tells the truth and stops looking for excuses.
You see "conventional wisdom" assumes that all posters to Slashdot want to gain karma, just as conventional wisdom assumes that members of the two dominant racial groups automatically hate and seek to destroy the members of the other group.
There's nothing to be done against these types of accusations because they represent the profound bigotry at the basis of American life. (Well, you could become an AC, like me, to avoid the "you're only in it for the karma accusation" but then you would get subtler accusations of being a status seeker, perhaps the ever present "troll" label.)
Welcome to America, and just remember that there are decent people out there who are reasonable and can get past prejudice and social pressure (they are just pretty hard to find.)
This is a little off topic, but this excuse has always offended me. Do you seriously believe that all white people have the resources to go to the most expensive private schools available? If so, your views on race are just as bad as those assuming that African Americans are less capable high-tech workers.
I can list over 50 people I know who are the product of a public school and that have gone on to jobs that are much more prestigious than hacker for Microsoft. They didn't have the benefit of parents with huge bankrolls or special minority group priviledge or anything else.
And as for your comment that white guys all know C when they get into college, that's just crap. In my freshman year, probably 5 people out of 250 knew C. And from what I've heard from co-workers, that ratio is similar in other schools. Frankly, I have a hard time believing that all of the white guys in your courses were that proficient in programming.
The most ironic part of your comment is how you finished your post:
Find a black man on your job site, and ask him where he's from, and what high school he attended. I guarantee he's either got parents as priviliged as most of yours, or he worked his ASS off to get to where he is now.
And how is that different from any other person? Do you seriously think that all white guys that get through an engineering program did so ONLY because of rich parents? You're generalizing, then accusing everyone else of generalizing about black people not being able to code.
I completely agree with you that there is a (incorrect) perception both inside and outside the industry that whites are better and that there is racism in our field (like any other). But believe me, we "white guys/gals" aren't as well off as you think.
bh
Heh, anyone else find it ironic all the black "leaders" and such on television lately (especially Democrats during the campaign) state that they are for Affirmative Action, just not for quotas. Yet, if your company does not have the right percentages of some race .. you're sued for $5,000,000,000.
.. but you better have the right numbers and spread out over the entire company from low level gruntwork to top-level officers, or else.
So all you employers out there, yeah, don't use race as the only factor
There are a few things that we don't know, and can't really know completely. The article says "His failure to get promoted was due solely to race.." and I say bullshit. No, I've never worked at MS, and am as pasty white as they get. But so what if he was passed up for promotions? Maybe he was a jerk? Maybe he thought he was qualified, but really wasn't, or was but there was someone more qualified?
:)
Don't forget, anyone can be an asshole, regardless of their race. If he was purposefully passed over, I'm sure it was on purpose, but I very much doubt that it was due to the color of his skin.
Don't forget the majority of the Internet really is colorblind. The other part are the ones that think that malda is a purple dwarf.
I fucking HATE humans!
Word!
--
Kir
3cx.org - A truly bad website.
If you're clearly in the wrong and the judge is halfway fair, it doesn't matter how good your lawyers are. (Believe it or not, judges tend not to like letting ppl clearly in the wrong off on technicalities, and they *do* frequently have some leeway).
Now, if it's unclear who's in the wrong, that's another story -- but if one's actions aren't so egregious as to be "clearly in the wrong", aren't those the lawsuits we're trying to stop?
IANAL, but I'm pretty darned sure on this one...
You're right, though, the plantiffs just decide what to ask for.
The vast majority of programmers I've worked with are young, male and either white or asian. Perhaps 2/3rds of the non-whites are indians and the rest are chinese. Most were OK developers, a few of each kind were brilliant and a few were not so hot. I haven't seen many blacks in programming positions. I saw few women in programming positions but the ones I worked with were generally good. There were few older programmers. By older, I mean more than 35 years old.
On slashdot, we've been round and round over age discrimination. Each time it comes up, there are 400-500 posts. Now M$ has drawn the ire of another class of people they are discriminating against. Except this time, it's a far more militant opposition. Whereas women and older workers will simply shut up, leave the programming field and find some other kind of work because of the difficulty of proving sex and age discrimination, black workers will persist, spurred on by past victories. This is in part due to the perception that racial discrimination is ugly. It is. But I see no philosophical difference between racial, sex or age discrimination. If anything, age should considered the uglist kind because it will eventually affect everyone. The basic rationalization I've gleaned from all the stuff that's been said is that somehow, the software business is different. Well, it'll be interesting to see how that shiboleth plays in this case.
I doubt that most hiring managers aggresively cull out black, female or older applicants but I've run into the situation where I'm in demand until they see me. Hiring managers tend to hire people most like themselves. If you aren't a young male of white or asian stock, you may be greeted with surprised looks when you show up for an interview.
That all having been said, I can't see the plaintiffs collecting 5bil or whatever. But if they succeed and obtain a substantial settlement, it will send a message.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
I don't think too many people get excited over coaches, period, white or black.
"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
Asian does no equal white (honorary or otherwise). _Never_ equate them alike. There is nothing more then I can stand then to listen to this pathetic dribble.
Analyst research from investment banks usually has that information.
I wholeheartedly agree with the suit. In a society that's structurally founded on greed and egotism, only the fear of monetary loss will ever effect any change. It's the only answer.
--
At my last company, we employed just two African Americans in the 2.5 years I was there. Their resumes were the only ones we ever received from African Americans. We interviewed scores of people. I was going to say we only hired one African American, but I was disservice to a good friend of mine who I still work with at a different job - I tend to be colourblind with these things. There just weren't many African Americans applying for jobs, so I think those statistics are bollocks. I would say that we had below average or non-existent racism, and we had plenty of non-white workers (we had 6 Chinese, 2 African Americans, 3 Indians, 1 Venezualan (sp?), plus a few Europeans.)
I'd bet that the total number of people employed by all those organziations put together *might* come close to the number of people working at Microsoft. Furthermore, who do you think earns more money, a low-level programmer at MS, or the guy filing tapes in some basement at MTV?
You can't just point at an NFL linebacker and say, "Look, black people have plenty of opportunities."
Causation can cause correlation
> No latinos? Where the heck are you writing from, Maine?
I work for one of the largest tech employers in the Valley. Open your eyes once in a while.
> Down the coast, where Mr. Jesse Jackson raised a big stink, in Silicon Valley, you will find ethnic diversity is the rule.
Well, this is just incorrect. There are some groups that are represented in the Valley, and some that aren't. The ones that aren't are the ones that have been stigmatized by Americans for centuries: blacks and latinos.
> The hiring based on race is racism of another form -- which is exactly what they're trying to stomp out. It seems like a vicious circle to me.
So... when you're leveling your pool table, you never adjust just one leg of it, right? Because that would be treating one differently, and you want them all to be the same, right?
Well... hopefully not, because it won't work.
Racism in the workplace has been studied to death, and the result is always the same: it's there. As others have pointed out, it will be there as long as people are there, because no one is perfectly pure in heart and spirit. What's more, people can't accurately report whether they make racist decisions. Most people unconsciously seek people that seem familiar, even if they have no explicitly racist feelings.
When discrimination is shown over, and over, and over again to both exist, and be widespread, you can't make it more balanced by doing nothing, any more than you can balance your pool table by adjusting every leg in exactly the same fashion.
Uh, you must mean reverse discrimination right?
Um, no. "Reverse discrimination" is the reverse of discrimination. It's non-discrimination or open.
Either you discriminate or you do not discriminate.
--fatboy
In most industries you can't fire anyone. They will sue and usually for discrimination. I can think of a case of a white guy suing his company because he was fired by his female white manager, who spent 2 years documenting how incompetent he was. Whatever happened to employment at will and the freedom of association? If it is my company then I feel it is my right to hire/fire someone based on anything I want. If I am employee it is my right to quit my job based on anything I want.
Odd, that we have never heard of a case of company suing a former employee who quit because his manager was a minority. Why doesn't this happen? Simple, large corporations have money and many people are quite content to use the courts to acquire their fortune.(the same can be said for many large corporations who sue others).
This is all a sign of a larger societal problem. Basically we are a nation with far too many people who try to use the courts and the legislature to acquire wealth.
Stuart Eichert
Stuart Eichert
That's imprecise. You are assuming that the proportion of white supremacists who work for Microsoft is the same as that in the rest of the population. Moreover, your assertion that the proportion ogf whites is higher is possibly wrong (hint: consider the number of Indian and Chinese employees). This is an enormous, and completely unsupported assumption. On one hand, you acknowledge the possibility that one factor could have an impact on the attitudes of workers (the fact that there are more fewer blacks), but assume that there are no other factors (here's a few possible other factors: number of Chinese/Indian employees, working environment with a lot of foreign workers, high levels of education among employees, geography of the workplace, ... )
I'm not asserting that the cross section of MS is the same as that as the rest of the population. Indeed, it's most certainly different. My point is that it's disingenious to assume that the cross section would be either more or less sympathetic to minorities than the general population.
But a quick look at Microsofts job pages reveals that they do actively and aggressively recruit minorities. The "percentages" are completely without merit unless they compare them with other companies in the same sector. What do the lawyers want, quotas ?
This is illogical, because it ignores other factors. If Microsoft have more black employees than most other high tech companies, the klansmen most likely will leave and get a job with a company that's more "white".
In an interview, every applicant has to prove him/herself better, or "be at a disadvantage". That's the point of the interview.
are you completely sure that your conviction that "Engineering is largely the sport of white males" would never influence your judgment if you had decide between hiring a black applicant and a white applicant who looks like what you think an engineer or project manager should look like?
I couldn't care less if he was black AND had purple hair AND had a bone through his nose, as long as he could write code. But that's just me.
The point of the lawsuit is that those blacks who do decide to become engineers should not be discriminated against.
I've seen MS's job page, and they actively recruit minorities by holding career fairs at various minority student group conventions. I think this law suit is a load of cr*p. I'm not denying discrimination exists, but this lawsuit does appear to be without merit. No evidence is presented for example that MS employ less minorities than anyone else in the tech business, or that they reject more qualified minorities in favour of "majority" applicants.
I hope things have continued to improve on the Farm since my time there, but racism is alive at Stanford just like anywhere else. The difference as I saw it was that students of different race were more likely to discuss the issue openly and to confront their own bias. I did so several times at college, but I still notice myself making assumptions about people based on race all the time.
-- This is not a signature.
> Does this make me racist?
Yes, it does. And one does not have to be white to be racist. And all (most?) whites are not racist.
Given engineering as a field, how long is it before the assumed white and near-white birthright to jobs over african american or other under represented candidates can be questioned?
ELITISM: It's always lonely at the top. Uninvited company is rarely welcome.
It's not just for seven people. They're seeking class-action status for the lawsuit, making the $5 billion apply to hundreds of former and current black employees at Microsoft, according to the article. And there is the punitive aspect the others have mentioned as well.
And you know for a fact that qualified minority coaches aren't being discriminated against? The sports industry is very much a "good ol' boys" kind of network.
Also Jeff Blake, the guy Brooks is showing up, as well as Shaun King, Kordell Stewart, Tony Dungy (coach), Ray Rhodes (ex-coach), and Tony Banks.
Bite the hand.
For those who aren't seeing zero posts:
No, obviously not, they encourage the race of people they supposedly represent to think of themselves as victims that have the deck stacked against them at every turn. This may have been true 50 years ago but it's not now, and all they do is keep mental shackles on where physical ones once were.
Surely that much is obvious, unless you're taken in by all the PC crap.
The thing is that while we all agree that the deck is not AS stacked against them as it was 50 years ago, it sure as hell is still stacked against them.
You're right, a victim mentality, and standing around waiting for someone else to make it right is not going to help anyone. Those who fit those shoes stay stuck. But there are many who DON'T fit those shoes and still have to work harder than those of us whose main priveledge is the whiteness of our skin and/or our X chromosome just to get to the same places.
Affirmative Action, as applied by brainless bureaucrats, is about as effective as any other policy implemented by the same bureaucrats (i.e. hardly at all in addressing the real issue, and typically doing more harm than good) but it's not right to 1) blame African Americans for that and 2) do nothing to help address the institutional barriers that absolutely still exist in our society.
If you can't see the walls and ceilings in the way of African Americans, you're just not looking very hard. This is not to say none make it through; in fact a large number do, all the more credit to their efforts. But to pretend that our society is now colorblind and discrimination is not still pervasive (even if it isn't as OPEN or VIRULENT as it once was in most quarters) is to have one's head firmly lodged in a very dark place.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Jesse & Al & Louis are ALWAYS talking down education, and encouraging their young people to go shoot each other instead of bettering themselves.
Get real, and go learn some facts instead of believing what Rush tells you, ok?
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Those poor lawyers taking the case need to get paid somehow. Duh.
-BWARNING: This post contains sarcasm.
After what they've said about him in the appeal of the antitrust case, the man will have to be a saint to give them a fair trial. OTOH I guess I think that anyone willing to take on a behemoth like M$ is a saint anyway...
-- This
Let's set the record straight: My racial group does not choose to be less educated...we simply don't always have access to the same resources growing up as whites. That can't possibly be understood by someone who's never attended public school in a major city (I'm from Detroit). I took freshman EECS with 3 hundred white guys that had been taking C classes since the 9th grade, and the only exposure I'd had to any form of high-level programming was self-taught. Poor K-12 education == Poor SAT/ACT != quality higher education. This uneven playing field is the reason for the small numbers of us in the tech industry.
as a product of the chicago public school system, i definitely know what you mean about not having the same resources as well-off burb kids - all the programming knowledge i had when entering college was self-taught as well, and i never took it for granted. but then you start your freshman year and meet all sorts of upper-middle-class kids who went to really good schools and had taken tons of AP classes, and they don't even realize how much of a better start they have - much less appreciate it.
but please, don't frame it as 'we don't have the same resources as whites' - i've come from a working-class white background, and it didn't give me any magical bonus points. yes, i had to work like hell to catch up with my peers, and yes, people will disregard you for your clothes or your vocabulary or your accent just as easily (if not easier) as for the color of your skin.
imvho, the issue here is not just racial. it's socioeconomic.
My other car is a cons.
I find your comment on affirmative action to be very interesting; that people assumed you only got the job because you were black.
I'm wondering if other blacks have faced this issue in schools and in the workplace?
Is affirmative action perhaps more damaging than helpful for those blacks that are fully qualified for their school and job? Is affirmative action still needed?
What is your opinion on this matter and would you have made it through university and into the workplace, if there would have been no such thing as affirmative action?
I dunno, the minimum salary in the NFL is around $400k, I think that's pretty fucking obscene.
--Xantho
Please understand that this is NOT a troll!
Some things in life can be changed, others cannot.
I have no doubt that many racists discriminate against people based on color. I am sure that qualified people are passed over for raises/promotions based on gender and race. This is wrong. There are legal protections for people based on race and gender. This is as it should be. People should be judged on their merits, not on the color of their skin.
However, some things in life cannot be changed. For example, I happen to be caucasion, and the prevailing wisdom in our country today is that caucasions have trodden on non-caucasians and therefore advantages need be granted to non-caucasians.
As a result, I have not been considered for jobs solely based on the color of my skin. (One of the major employers in my hometown hires caucasian males less than 30% of the time so they can get their averages up.)
The major corporation for which I now work has a stated policy that they intend to double the number of women and minorities in senior executive positions.
The side effect of this is that as a caucasian male, I will be less likely to get the positions that do become available.
This brings me to my point. I cannot change the fact that it is culturally acceptable to discriminate against caucasian males in today's workplace. This is simply a fact of life. I can work around it - for example - I relocated 350 miles from my hometown where I could more easily find work. Because I cannot change it, I must adapt to it.
If these people feel the need to have the court redress their grievances, that is their prerogative. I have found that life is much happier if I focus on what I an do rather than what 'the man' is doing to keep me down.
Also, WRT education, I grew up in a poor family in Appalachia, borrowed money to pay for school, and worked my butt off to get my education.
I strongly believe that ANYONE of average intelligence can complete college in the US if they are sufficiently motivated. Government backed loans, grants, and the prospective student's hard work combine to make this possible.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
I am betting it is pretty high. If the MS lawyers were smart, they would flaunt these numbers. Oh, I forgot... according the Queasy Mfume those Asian workers aren't the *right* race....
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Yea, it really sucks to be white and in the sports industry right now. After all, that means that you're probably an agent, manager, or executive, making a whole ton of money and not taking any physical risk.
<Sarcasm>
I know all those athletes are bitching about all the risk they have to take. They just hate playing, but they have to! And the agents, managers, and executives don't know what the meaning of the word "risk" is! Such soft, cushy, easy jobs theirs.
</Sarcasm>
So many athletes are paid such enormous salaries, many guaranteed, to play! They usually hate to give up the game and only do so because their skills are no longer up to it or they are injured and simply must. But given the choice, they invariably want to play for as long as they can. They know the physical risks and it doesn't deter them.
The owners of sports franchises are usually damn wealthy. But the athletes are also damn wealthy and I would bet they are, on average, far better paid than the agents and managers.
Actually, it's probably about $50,000 per person, and $4,999,650,000 in legal fees. Those Lexuses outside aren't free, you know.
--
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
I don't care if they abused them physically on a regular basis. 5 Billion is just plain stupid.
It's not as if they spilled hot coffee on their own lap or anything like that...
-- Windows security? Sure, which ONE would you like? -me
My girlfriend teaches in a shit-poor school in our city. Guess what? The little bastards don't behave worth a damn. They run away whenever possible, go outside and piss on the building (this is K-5) fight all the time.
Contrast to a white suburban school where the kids behave and actually learn.
Explain THIS one?
Blar.
Why hate someone because of the color of their skin, when you get to know them and find so much more to hate about them!
I'm truly amazed that people can really believe there is anything in this country that is truly colorblind.
Sure, on the internet, our internet identities do not neccessarily convey the color of our skin. But there are people, and companies, working behind the scenes. People getting paid, people doing hiring and firing and promotions and everything else that other companies in other industries do. Even Microsoft.
I'm sure most would agree that there exists gender-based discrimination in this industry. Why would race be any different?
5 billion does seem excessive. On the other hand- how much is Microsoft making off these employees that has gone into the pockets of the (white) ruling men there?
Maybe this is a little extreme, but I also think its a rather polyanna view to take to think the internet is solving the issue of racism in this country.
-Lisa
Of course, since I've never worked at Microsoft, I can't speak for them in particular, but in my experience the tech industry is about the least racist industry out there. In every tech company I've worked for, race has never been an issue in anything. The only thing that really matters is skill level. Those that are deemed as un-trainable or just plain dumb are treated like dirt, while those who are clearly intelligent and know their shit are treated with respect...regardless of what they look like.
As for the damage amount, it seems like this is a few disgruntled employees looking to cash in on America's obsession with race, using a company with loads of liquid cash.
Wrong. Again.
By this reasoning, then, you'll be handing yourself over to the authorities for your guilt in the Jasper, TX draggings.
The difference between my point and your scenario is that the people who committed that crime are still with us to take responsibility. Furthermore, I'm not suggesting that each individual transgression rooted in racism in our nation's past be atoned for by individuals today. What I'm refering to is that white America must now accept some burden for the wrongs of our forebearers (and contemporaries.) What form that burden takes, be it affirmative action or simply an individual's willingness to understand why a black man resents him just for being white, is a matter for another debate
And BTW, the entirity of academia belongs to the "PC" crowd. You know - the people that generate culture for the rest of us? I think that's FAR and above your demand for 10 people.
OK--to suggest that anyone & everyone associated with a university is part of the 'PC crowd' is so patently ridiculous on the face of it that I shouldn't even bother. However, you've failed to answer my "demand", as I asked that 10 people be named, as it's trivial to indict the beliefs of inspecific groups of people because it's not possible to make counter-examples. Of course, in this case (all of academia), counter-examples abound so I won't even bother.
If you take the time, I'd grant that you might find 2 or 3 people of some reputation who are the ideological drones that 'PC crowd' implies. However, the reality is that most of the people you're eager to so label have real, if not sound, reasons for their beliefs. It seems to me that you're eager to rob them of their intellectual self-determination simply because you don't agree. That's just cheap.
First let me say I'm appalled that some of the PC-police modded you down to zero. Your comment is as reasonable as my own.
I applaud your concern, however his post is a 0 because he posted as an AC.
Furthermore, the moderation standards at Slashdot are pretty poor in general, and I think you err in invoking the spectre of the (IMHO mythical) "PC-Police"
OK Alan, put your money where your mouth is. Find me one link to a Salon article that espouses the simple-minded opinion you ascribe to the "PC Crowd". Then tell me a story about how you've suffered from anti-white racism.
For extra credit, name 10 people who command some modicum of respect that belong to this 'PC Crowd'.
I'll never argue that whites aren't on the receiving end of racism. But A)it's usually backlash for racism they've suffered, B)it's rarely (or never) in a way that really matters (loans, promotions, housing, etc.) Deep down, you know this, but it riles you that you're being held responsible for something you had no direct hand in. Life's a bitch, eh?
I dont think anything else needs to be said, this is already too funny a mis-type.
-- Crutcher --
#include <disclaimer.h>
-- Crutcher --
#include <disclaimer.h>
Sounds like a good case against Affirmative Action. It causes minorities who actually tried hard, excelled, and earned their position to be looked at as if they don't belong there. It seems like a disincentive to even try, thus repressing the minorities it was supposed to pull up.
I'm not saying that ending Afirmative Action would make white people respect minorities. And I don't know if there's anything that will really help, except for time, and people trying to respect each other. I'm just saying that Affirmative Action has negative consequences as well as positive, and we should question its effectiveness. It sounds like you would be where you are today without Affirmative Action, and would be able to command more respect.
O no, don't worry, lots of people already "question its effectiveness." For example, Newt Gingrich once said that Affirmitive Action "belongs to the asheap of history." Linda Chavez, the current designee for W.'s Labor Department, runs an advocacy group called the Center for Equal Opportunity, which has made the (+2, Interesting, -3 Flamebait) claim that the shame felt by minorities "stigmatized" by affirmative action on univeristy campuses is equivilent to that of Jews forced to wear yellow stars.
Anybody who's been a debater in high school or college in the last ten years has argued affirmitive action at least once.
Affirmitive Action is in a very precarious position. The usual argument is that it promotes reverse discrimination against, and weakens the souls of, those it is meant to help.
For our next trick, we will restore dignity to the inner city by removing crutches like public housing and minimum wages. Welcome to the Republican/Libertarian Revolution, everyone!
sorry - there aren't tons of black people moving up in droves to places where its always raining, cold, and dank... like Seattle.
I was there a bunch a few years ago, and i'm sorry, but there just weren't that many there.. and i doubt that its changed in a couple of years.
All whites are racist... i guess that's just what blacks want us to believe.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
The high-tech industry is made up of human beings. Human beings have prejudices. They tend to prefer people who look, act and think like themselves. For instance, one of the managers in the company I work for decided to publish a pictorial version of his org chart a few years ago--a rundown of all his direct reports. Out of thirty-five positions, EVERY ONE was filled by a white male between the ages of twenty-five and fifty-five. No matter how you slice it, there is something wrong with that.
No one ascribed this to overt racism. I daresay that no one was more surprised at this than the manager himself.
Another incident: I'm African-American. I was working as a project lead under a manager. I was fortunate enough to have a very sharp white guy working for me. Whenever I would approach my manager with an idea, he'd never accept it directly from me. He'd run it past my subordinate or one of his other white direct reports before saying yea or nay. Nothing malicious about it; he just wasn't used to good ideas coming from someone who looked like me. Could have been worse, though. He didn't listen to women at all.
People have to be educated about this issue. Good work, good ideas and innovation don't come only from white male minds. Affirmative action, at its best, makes organizations mindful of this fact and sees that it is put into practice.
Maybe you'd consider this off-topic, but while I don't remember seeing any overtly racist posting on SlashDot (and I'm usually browsing at 1 or 2), it's not *that* unusual to see posts referring to something as "gay" (with negative connotations). It's good to see some of the excellent arguments here against discrimination-by-race, but would be even better to see the same arguments being generalised to also apply to discrimination on any basis.
ben_, bisexual and bloody proud of it, okay?
ben_ the technologist and platform agnostic
You are right. The public education system fails more than just African-Americans. I was just trying to highlight the fact that MSFT may have done nothing wrong at all and the root of the problem may be elsewhere. By the way, I'm white.
"I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX
You highlight some important points. One is that while there is a positive side to Affirmative Action there are negative implications as well. e.g. he/she got it to that school because of his/her color. Second, education is a big deal. I went to public school in a city and the quality of education sucked. Consider yourself lucky to have had programming classes. I had zero, zip, nada. I now and taking prog classes on top of a full time job. Fact is, the government is failing the African-American community by providing crappy educations. Probably far more than MSFT may be. Can the African-American community sue uncle sam for damages or can the king do no wrong?
"I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX
The internet is color blind but it's not culture blind. I find that racism tends be more culturism (is that a word?). Different culture (i.e. language, traditions, dress, etc.) means that you have to cope with a lack of understanding and often stereotypes tend to fill in the blanks. I think everyone is guilty of doing this to a certain degree, although the more watchful and/or sensitive people will try harder.
-Jennifer
At a company where I used to work, there were some blacks in the administration side, but none at all in the technical side of the business. Lots of Asians and Indians, no blacks.
Our Director of Personnel was black, so I don't think it was a corporate policy against blacks.
The whole time I was there, I do not recall a single black showing up for an interview in the technical side, and on that, you can't know until you call the number on the resume and ask them to come in.
Why?
A big part of it, I think, is an even more unpleasant version of what Jon Katz has written about in his "Voices from the Hellmouth" series, with a particularly pernicious strain of racism added to the brew.
My mother was a school teacher. One of the things that exasperated her, and drove her black collegues to tears, was the way any black child who showed any interest in academic things was treated by their black peers. It started with "You're trying to be white," and got worse from there. One brilliant girl in a neighboring school, whose ambition was to become a medical doctor, bled to death on the school bus one morning after one of these thugs slit her throat for the crime of "acting white".
And a significant portion of the students thought the murdering thug was a heroine, because "She really showed that Oreo." The rest are terrorized into acting the way the thugs define "black".
Which is not exactly compatible with getting the sort of education which might lead to a tech carreer.
I don't know how to fix this. There's a culture in many schools that celebrates ignorance and viciously attacks learning that has got to be defeated. There was an item in the papers a few years ago about how the schools in Washington DC handed out academic awards in secret, because the lives of any black kids who got an academic award would be in serious danger, from their fellow black students.
Perhaps the solution is to identify kids who are interested in learning, and separate them far, far away from the stupid thugs.
(A good idea for kids of all races, I think.)
I think the fact that M$ lost the anti-trust suit shows that they don't know how to do _anything_ just "slightly wrong."
Maybe this particular white isn't being promoted because he doesn't know how to spell or write a grammatical sentence. Jeez!
ok, after an extremely brief perusal of the comments up in this mofo... hmmm...
... geek = open-minded, while one that i'd like to subscribe to, don't seem to hold up too well... oh, well)
... in the above half-assed scenario, the speaker will (possibly) benefit from the perspective of her friends or family, and will learn, and then she may even expunge the idea from her world-view that the Jews eat babies.
i shoulda guessed i'd see some "he's a rasict, she's saying racist things, you're a racist goddamn nazi, my mom's a nazi" and other crap of that general nature. i just didn't think i'd see this much of it.
come ON, people, this is just silly... look at it this way (or at least try to... the theorem that intelligence = open-mindedness, geek = intelligent
we're all guilty of racism. all of us. everyone, at some point or another has had a thought that could be qualified as being racist. sometimes, we're lucky enough to vent this shite in an environment where we are with folks who recognize the questionable statement as being racist, and who are also in tune with us enough to realize that it's not an overt racism, just an effect of the subtext of our society. provided, of course, that the latter is actually the case. for the purposes of my little argument here, let's just presume that we're all non-nazi, non-idjit, and non-racist. i know this is untrue, but it's _my_ comment, dammit!
crap. where was i?
now, if this seems a bit far-fetched, that those around us will assist in meme-editing, it's probably because it it. and, it's also less likely to be effective. i have yet to "convert" a racist to a state of non-racism. part of this would seem to be because folks just don't like changing. part of it is probably that i am just plain bad at this kind of stuff. it don't mean that i don't try, though. who knows, maybe some day i'll actually have a minor positive impact on someone's view of things.
what seems more important to me, tho, is the self-editing end of things... it's like the alcoholic who does not admit to alcoholism. once he sees he has this trouble with booze, he can work on it.
so, when i used to live in the city and ride the subway all over the goddamn place, and would get that (extremely) asinine skinny-white-boy made nervous by urban-gang-banger-lookin'-BLACK-kids thing, i sort of confronted the idea internally. i though about what scared me about these guys, i thought about what they might see me as being about, and i decided to tackle the fucker head on. years of public transit, many, many drunken nights riding home unconcious or nearly so, and i wasn't stabbed to death once. nor robbed. not even called honkey. which was disappointing; it would have been an ideal way to cut to the chase of the issue.
anyway, i'm not white, but i am a racist sometimes anyhow, and you are too. keep it in mind and keep fighting the good fight. just remember that the good fight is fought in the realm of ideas, not fists or guns or some barbarian shit like that.
peace
Don't ask. Go see.
nononononononoo!
shit!
what do you mean, separate them? SEGREGATING the population into academic and non-academic by personal inclination or whatever you might want to call it still equates to have v. havenot.
think about it.
Don't ask. Go see.
ok, i think i might have mis-represented myself.
the problem i see with that kinda approach is not giving the kids who are maybe more likely to take advantage of an environment where they are isolated from the kinda bullshit kids do to each other. yah, sure, those kids would then have a much better chance to do what they want with their lives. what about the other kids, though? just because li'l Bobby is a young urban black thug or whatthefuckever does not validate leaving him by the academic wayside. when li'l Bobby the Thug gets a higher quality of education he will be more able to see the value thereof and will then be less likely to molest, trouble and generally fuck with the more scholarly little dude.
we are best able to measure ourselves by the LCD.
look at MTv.
do the math.
actually, i think the MTv thing might be a little hasty on my part; i heard that they are planning to do a bit on hate crimes next week. something like sixteen straight hours of no viddies no real world no ads nothing but a list of the hate crimes that have been committed in the past n years or something. i wonder if they'd touch on the kid that Mike Van Pelt mentioned up there...
Don't ask. Go see.
I hope you realize, law suits like this and comments like you made doesn't help you. Think about it for one second, if I had a company, why would I risk hiring a black person when if I say "you prodcutive is lower then other people", and they blam it on me being racist then sues me for it. What if I wanted the person out of my office, then they trun around and say "he fires me becuase I'm black" then sues me. What if I feel someone else is better at management and never promote someone else and that person happens to be black then they sue me. Wouldn't I be less likely to hire a black person? HELL YEAH I WOULD BE!! I might get SUED!!
You wanna talk about racist? Your comments are racist. Where the hell you get off saying "they gets promotions 'cuase they be white?!" You expect special treat, but you haven't done anything special. So you went to school, big deal. A lot of people have. So you had a crappy high school, I did to. Heck, I didn't even finsh highschool and I made it. You have a job, big deal. Any you blame it on your color becuase people don't automatically think you're the best thing since hot shit on a stick?? What do you want? A cookie?!
Not to mention, did you get you job becuase you're more skilled or becuase of Affirmative Action? If so, maybe you don't deserved it? What make you so damn special? Oh, you're black, and the white man inslaved you. The white man owes you, huh? Bullshit. I guess it's fair to hire someone not on their skills but on the color of thier skin, but only if they are black. What bunch of crap.
Look, damn it, You haven't done anything special and you do not deserve special treatment.
I get treated like shit daily. I don;t get respect automatically, I have to EARN it. Just like i have to EARN my job. Damn it, stop whining and start earning things in your life instead of blaming everything on your skin color and expecting special treatment, and maybe people might just respect you and your race.
Having said you might have to EARN some respect this is now a flamebait....It's not... it's the sad truth..
MarNuke
Remember the Dred Scott decision? The one where Blacks were said to be "subordinate and inferior beings"? Or Plessy vs. Ferguson, where "separate but equal" was upheld? Did you sleep through history or are you just stupid?You must be stupid. Economics is not physics. Economies grow, creating wealth where none existed before.
No, the real issue is the conservation of karma (original non-/. definition). What comes around goes around, and Whites will not remain the top dog for too much longer. And when Whites move to the bottom of the economic scale don't expect minorities to shed any tears about it.
Plus, if Whites manage to dismantle affirmative action, don't think that we won't discriminate against you the way Whites have discriminated against us minorities for years...
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
You can see it to this day. Racial profiling, where Blacks and Hispanics are thrown in jail in disproportionate numbers, when in reality the largest group of criminals are White.
Minorities get a crappier education, so they make less money and thus have a lower level of home and business ownership. Those statistics are a function of White resistance, not our intelligence or drive to succeed.
If Whites did not put up extra roadblocks in our way, then maybe we would believe you when you all say that racism and discrimination don't exist in the U.S. For now we know that you all talk a good game, but after 200 years of empty promises we are not listening to you anymore...
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
Where I work, I've had to go to HR. You see, our company has posters all over the place saying that they belive in employee retention and diversity. Yet, all 20 IT managers are White.
Over the last three years, I've had an exemplary record in Operations and an 3.9 GPA in my computer courses at Houston Community College. When I asked to be considered for an opening as a programmer, I was told that the position was eliminated for budget reasons.
A new PC support position was created, one that I am even more qualified for, and I was not given a chance too apply for it. A White contractor was moved to the new position so I got screwed. That is why I went to HR.
I came to find out that the position I applied for was still on the books, but the White contractor had filled it. By doing that they could eliminate the programming position and move the White guy to the new PC support position with no muss or fuss. Or so they thought.
They thought they could get away with it using sleight of hand, but I caught them with their hand in the cookie jar. Now I am waiting on HR and if they don't get off their ass soon I am going straight to the EEOC.
What could my company had done? I thought that when they looked at me and my qualifications answer would be an immediate, unqualified "Yes!". But instead I got the runaround and vague promises that they will take care of me later on.
But I am tired of waiting, which is why I took action. All I know is that no matter what happens now, I have them by their short hairs and that there will be some punitive damages involved!
As an aside, I realize that crimes differ in their severity and prosecution. People look the other way on speeding because everyone does it and police are powerless to stop it. However most people would think twice before killing a bald eagle. I happen to think that people should look at job discrimination as being closer to killing a bald eagle than speeding...
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
My company has 20 White IT managers. The three CIO candidates I am aware of are White. Are my employer trying to tell me that in a city the size of Houston there are no qualified minority IT managers? Or is it that they are not looking hard enough?
The percentage of Hispanics in my IT department is 5%. Why should that be compared against the pool of IT workers (where 5% may very well be an acceptable number) when >30% of the population of the greater Houston and Harris County area consists of Hispanics?
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
Don't you think that these foreigners would rather face informal racism here in the U.S. instead of a rigid caste system back home?
As an aside, I don't usually bitch about the moderation, but this is "insightful"???
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
You know what? Go ahead and get rid of affirmative action. In a few years we Chicanos will be the majority in many parts of the U.S. (California and Texas in particular). When we gain power due to our numbers, what is going to stop us from discriminating against your sons and daughters?
Get rid of affirmative action and the answer is NOTHING!!! Get rid of it and you are basically trading in one Master who minimally cares about you (the Whites) for another Master who doesn't give a rat's ass about you.
Keep it, and maybe you kids will have an chance to participate in a free and equal society...
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
It is funny that of all the Hispanics in the U.S. you point the Cuban-Americans as a positive role model. Unlike the Chicanos and Puerto Ricans, who fought for their land then lost it, the Cuban-Americans willingly left their island. The Cuban-Americans should not be considered role models at all, as they are nothing but a cowardly people who would proved that they would rather flee than fight for their land...
And in the wake of the Elian incident, they proved that they are willing to use a small child as a political pawn. It was really sad to see them trying to justify keeping Elian from his FATHER...
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
Why are all you Whites posting anonymously and giving vague anecdotal examples straight out of the Koalition of Konservative Kacuasians handbook?
Come on, indentify yourselves and give use some concrete examples of this reverse discrimination you claim exists. Facts or statistics would be nice...
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
Oh no, this isn't racism! Just a bunch of minorities wanting special favors...
Jeez, your argument isn't even original. In case your limited mind doesn't realize it, but your argument is straight out of the Koalition of Konservative Kaucasians handbook!
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
Maybe it is just the system telling you that you really aren't a "truly intelligent white college student" or you would have gotten a much better deal.
Oh well, there's always Cal State!
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
PS if your school is 75% White and 75% male, then you must be a what? White male? You must like it that way seeing as how unwilling you are to let the school even try to change that statistic...
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
One more time. Evidence please? A picture of a welfare recipient with a Lexus would be great. Too bad your GOD Rush Limburger doesn't have such a picture or would be the most linked picture on the internet (you know those White Aryan Nation idiots would dig it!).You could not be more wrong. The White racists act offensively, attacking us. We minorities are engaging in self defense. Since we are not the majority, we cannot really act to stop racism, only react to it wherever we see it (like in your post)...
Besides, why are you so adamant about this issue? Are you a closet White Aryan Nation supporter or something? You sure "talk the talk", why not go all the way and "walk the walk"?
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
And I suppose only
How about hanging out with some minority friends? Spend some time with them and see where they are coming from. Ask them why they are for affirmative action and LISTEN to them. Then maybe you won't sound so ignorant when you speak about racial issues!
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
P.S. Kudos on using your name. Apparently most White males here at
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
Good luck in your quest to find "like-minded" individuals. They probably will kick you out of the organization as soon as you tell you are Puerto Rican...
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
Not quite. How many blacks own football teams? How many blacks own teams in other major sports? How many blacks are there in the upper management of any of the major music production companies?
Clearly minorities play a large part as athletes and musicians, and they are paid well, but they are not the people getting the larger paychecks. Because minorities in those industries are primarily the products of those industries (the athlete, the artist) and very visible, it is easy to state that racism doesn't occur. But that is not the case if you look a little deeper.
First of all, you are the first time I hear this term "honorary asian" O I mean honorary white bullshit.
And it's not the word you speak of, but the frankly way you bring up this term that make you come off a racist. You sir, are a fucking racist.
(Let's do this the democratic way, let's vote whether you are a racist. My 0.02 goes to yes.)
CY
I'm a little surprised at everyone's shock over the $5 billion claim. The plaintiffs are in no way expecting to get anywhere near that -- it's simply to up the ante in this case of blackmail. Sears set a precendent (not a legal one) well over a decade ago when it was sued for racial discrimination (to the tune of 20 million), won the case, but ended up spending 40 milion in legal fees. Most large businesses have long followed the practice of trying to settle every case that isn't laughable on its face simply because its almost always more expensive to go to court. So when you ask for something like $5 billion, its not because that's supposed to represent any actual damages, it because they want to bludgeon MS into taking the safer route of maybe only parting with 100 million or so. The $5 billion tag automatically labels this suit as dishonest.
It's not a coincidence that the firm representing the plaintiffs also represented Coke in a $1.5 billion discrimination suit. Coke, who's been repeatedly lauded over the years for their efforts at an integrated workforce, was simply floored by the suit. What are they supposed to do but settle? You can't take the chance that a knuckledheaded jury won't be sympathetic to claims of institutional racism. MS is no different, except at least they get to go in front of a judge instead of jury.
i rule.
spare me the outrage. were there never any affirmative action, you would be completely justified in your anger with people going over your head. but how, given the relative ease with which minorities can obtain admissions and the quota driven EEOC mandates, could you blame someone for questioning you. everyone is aware of the lengths companies go to insure themsleves against discrimination suits, and that certainly includes hiring people who never would be hired unless they were a minority. not knowing anything else about a doctor, would you choose a white one or a black one for a life saving operation? if there were never any affirmative action, then which one would you choose?
just because you would have made it without preferences doesn't mean its true of everyone else at your level.
i rule.
Disclaimer : I have been in US for little more than a year, so I may haven't seen the whole picture.
I am here on H1B visa and let me tell you I haven't seen / felt discrimination @ my company yet. That doesn't mean I get invited to all my collegues weddings either. (neither are most of other workers)
I speak decent english but I do have an accent (English was/is my 2nd language). But that hasn't costed me any promotions / opportunities either.
While talking to another friend of mine (came to this country as a refuge & educated himself, now he is a QA manager at a respectable company) he said there is no reason for anyone to complain about racism here. If he can come to this country with very little english and no money, and be a QA manager within 10 years, there is NO reason for a 'native' (born/raised here) American can not to do the same.
I think it makes sense. WE all trumpet America being the land of opportunity thus we still have people claiming/complaining that they have been refused a chance in life because of their color
The example I would point is Indians (yeah the ones who play cricket) living in Bay Area (aka Silicon Valley). They all came from a developing country and now they are 'wealthiest' ethinic group here. Most of the Indian households income are in top 20%. So if these guys can do it, why can't a black/hispanic/<insert your race here> person do it?
Where I am from there is 'planned racism' (admission to colleges are on ethnic percentage basis). In that regard I havent' seen any 'explicit' racism here.
Any thoughts?
LinuxLover
WHAT?!! You got modded up for that BS? I know it's flamebait, but it disturbs me that you think that's viable social discourse.
Can we for one second examine your conclusion? Let us take it as true that Blacks want us to believe that all whites are racist. Why would that be? I know, it's because that'll guilt all of us into giving them special rights and privileges and all the good jobs. So when did all the black people of america get together and decide this was the plan? I must have missed that meeting while I was trying to convince my boyfriend he's a racist.
And as for Black people living in places where it's cold and dank. If you had perhaps studied american history you will see that people move where the jobs are. That is why cities like Detroit and Chicago (way colder than Seattle) had a large influx of Southern Blacks during the post-war boom period. First-wave minorities (Blacks and Hispanics as opposed to Asians and Indians) have traditionally not been encouraged to enter the realms of math and science. This has changed today, but even now when I go to conferences and things I am a (surprise) minority.
Now understanding that there are barriers to entry in this field (requires a college education with a strong math/science background that is sorely lacking in most inner-city and poor rural schools which up until recently, at least, constituted the two major locations of Black-Americans) you may perhaps realize that the reason a lot of Black people haven't moved to Seattle is that they have not been trained to do those kinds of jobs.
What do you think Black people say? "Microsoft has offered me, a Black Software Engineer, a job for 80K. Are they stupid? Don't they know we don't live in cold dank places like Seattle." Get real.
-a
"The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Roger Brinner
Someone mod this up! Most of slashdot needs to see it.
Speaking as a white guy in tech, I see lots of peoiple of color in the industry. Of course, they're all here on H1Bs.
Best Slashdot Co
I tend to believe that statement (blacks make better runners) as it relates to speed. This is because I know of no white man who has run a 100M Dash under 10.00 seconds.
Is it any different when in a news story women are described by the clothes they wear, rather than the brains they possess? And if so, why does this not apply to men in the news?
----
I have to say this is the biggest pile of bullshit ever. At microsoft, you get railed on for being stupid (being asked by BillG "who hired you? why?" is a career ender) and doing dumb shit but NEVER NEVER over race. I have never seen a company that goes further to extract the most IQ points from a person regardless of any physical attribute than MS. These guys are a bunch of losers hoping for a free lunch.
Not necessarily. Some 'liberal' philosophers justify affirmative action on the basis that at a collective level, it goes some way towards redressing injustices - even though - and they actually admit this - it is unfair to some/many individuals. This sounds bogus to me.
Female Prison Rape in NY
That doesn't sound like a very good way to motivate someone! Are you sure you didn't mean demotivate?
Female Prison Rape in NY
Damn, I'd paint myself black for a raise to 80k...
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Next time don't go to a midwestern college. ;) I know about Umich (and it's called the SHAPIRO library ;), and it's not really the least conservative place in the world. I imagine at Stanford you'd be welcomed with open arms, and not second guessed.
i find that when you see the preface "i'm not trying to be a bigot", you can just stop paying attention to the rest of the sentence. and regarding the "lack" of skilled black people in IS departments, i don't know where some of you work, but there are plenty in my dept. some are good, some are less so... though i fear being a bit redundant, that has nothing to do with the skin color, and much more to do with the drive of the person. there are just as many white coworkers (or asian, mexican, etc...) that lazy or subpar. i wish that people wouldn't try to blame it on something that has no relevance in almost every issue. and as far as sports go... they suck. go pick up a book and learn something, you dummards.
"How it infuriates a bigot, when he is forced to drag out his dark convictions"-- Logan Pearsall Smith
I know that not too long ago (within the last year) you (CT) said that you read almost all of the posts on /. And yet you're surprised that there's racism in the tech community? Considering that most of the people reading and posting here are techies, I can't believe you're surprised.
/. posts than anyone else would be surprised at this. The problem for most racists is that they can't tell who's what color. Once they figure it out, there's usually some fallout. Know any black geeks? Ask them what their experience is. Bet if they've been online for over a year, they've had some racist comments directed at them.
It doesn't happen in most discussions, but isn't there always some racist comment when there's non-white people involved in the story? Perhaps you're insulated from it, but there's lots of racism out there. Anybody remember the LOD/MOD flap about 5 years ago?
It surprises me that the person who, arguably, reads more
That doesn't mean anyone at MS is guilty of it. And BTW, I'm as white as Rob, if that matters.
--
Jesse Jackson is evil, he cuases more trouble then he solves. He is more racist than any one of the companies or people that he goes after.
sometimes we change our job, our friends, and our spouses, but we never change ourselves...
I agree that Bill does give much of his money to charities and the like, but that does not mean that people that work for microsoft aren't racist. He does not control what the managers and supervisors do and say.
sometimes we change our job, our friends, and our spouses, but we never change ourselves...
Bill Gates has given $20,000,000,000 (yes, you read right, twenty billion dollars) of his personal fortune to his charitable foundation, which is currently mostly committed to providing vaccinations to those living in 3rd world poverty. To even suggest that he's a racist is absurd.
Rather than a few anecdotal stories, I'd like to see how Microsoft's employee racial makeup compares to the rest of the industry. My guess is that it is pretty much the same as anywhere else. The whole tech industry isn't "racist", blacks just don't seem to be too interested in computers.
If these guys are going to file a lawsuit, fine, they should at least ask for reasonable compensatory damages. I can believe that one or two guys got wrongly passed over for promotion, but out of 20,000 employees that hardly represents a trend.
Michael
Do you have ESP?
I find this true in academic environment. Especially when it comes to gender discrimination. I am a student in a top 20 Computer science program in the nation. The department can hardly keep 10% of females. Near zero African American. All the departmental scholarship flows to female students.
But the school had very little choice. The industry is being condemned for it's gender makeup, and the industry blames the school for not graduating enough minorities. (This is being discussed out in the open when I sat with my scholarship sponsor and department faculty during award ceromony.)
With top schools like CMU leeching all the small supply of females, the department would do just about anything to keep the mix.
Of course, the CS department blames high schools for not encouraging minority students to do science/engineering... and the whole whoopla.
The true problem is accessibility. kids from poor neighborhoods have little access to hardware. You and I know that Computer Science, unlike Math, is something that requires a hardware investment. There is no way you can learn anything on paper, with the exception of the useless MCSE. If the industry wants to escape from the blame, it should support inner city computer education. Clinton did have plan for this, but G.W. Bush just wanna screw public school education and get voucher for prep schools.
Funny how a few voting machines in Florida costs the industry yet another blame for racial discrimination.
Yeah, no wonder some of them have such s***-eating grins in their team photos even though they suck ass.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
as long as M$ can prove they acted with due dilligence , they should be able to win the case. unfortunately, as with any lawsuit, aint no such thing as a sure thing.
try walking as a minority in a white neighborhood after dark. then try walking as a minority in a minority neighborhood. your experiences would be different from those you describe.
you are trying to compare things that cannot be adequately compared. as long as our society tolerates attitudes like yours, people will feel excused to adopt racist attitudes.
please do not blame the world for the actions of a few desperate souls.
Chuck is probably speaking about racism in terms of who is in power in those industries. How many black sports team owners are there? How about black coaches? How many black executives of record companies have you ever seen, except for whatshisname that owns Def Jam (and started it himself from scratch)? There's plenty of black talent in music and sports, but not much black power. That's probably what he's on about.
--Brogdon
This tagline is umop apisdn.
So how many of these guys were formerly black?
This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
Literally, of course, it makes no sense. But from a "practical" point of view, discrimination is usually discrimination from the majority to a minority group. Reverse discrimination, then, is favoring the minority over the majority.
There is a point at which ignorance becomes so willful and so great that I believe it becomes racism regardless of the motivation of the ignoramus responsible.
The point of restitution for slavery is exactly the same as that of restitution for the internment of the Japanese or Holocaust victims. The compensator IS NOT "whites". Let me repeat that: the compensator is not "whites". The compensator would be the US government. As confusing as it may be to you, whatever money that is used to pay restitution would not be taken from the pockets of good old boys, but instead taken from the general US fund which is paid into by blacks and whites and everybody else. Exactly as the money paid to victims of internment was paid for by tax money that in (very small) part, came out of their own pockets.
The argument for restitution would be that the US government committed a wrong by aiding slavery and that it should make right to the descendents of those it committed the wrong against.
I'm not even going to get into the real argument except to point out that this anonymous coward's mistaken logic is altogether too common. It's disgraceful.
Maybe they were discriminated against?
I don't suppose they ever stopped to think maybe it wasn't because they were black, but rather because they were incompetent?
I have a slight problem with "Affirmative Action" because I've seen totally incompetent people hired simply because the "Quota" for Non-White employees wasn't met at a company.
Does this make me racist? Maybe. Funny bit though... I'm not white.
-=-
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
Analyst research from investment banks usually has that information.
:)
Cool - thanks. I kinda feel embarrased about asking, actually - I should have just hit Google and asked there
I left my body to science, but I'm afraid they've turned it down...
Does anyone know exactly what jobs the people who are suing held at Microsoft? I haven't seen a list in any of the media reports.
I can believe the people who say MS policy is "we hire hackers based on ability - race is irrelevant". This is probably true for the technical positions (or as true as it can get in America).
BUT, MS is a big company, and has lots of jobs that are less technical. I could easily believe racism is alive and well in sales, marketing, packaging design, legal, etc...
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
Ummmm... do you know what the term "class action suit" means? Obviously not, and obviously the people who modded you up, don't understand that, either.
But whatever, after all this is Slashdot, and trolls abound here.
Sigged!
That's how many italians pronounce it, too, and sure they are white as me.
Sigged!
>not to mention that your percentages add up to
...
>110%
doh! I really need to proof-read
Yes, I'm aware our population here is very diverse. I was referring to workers in the computer industry, that I am familiar with (and mostly guessing at that, just to compare with the guy posting about Calgary).
Nice stats, though, thanks for the post.
>OK Alan, put your money where your mouth is. Find
i nd ex.html
>me one link to a Salon article that espouses the
>simple-minded opinion you ascribe to the "PC
>Crowd".
http://www.salon.com/letters/1999/06/25/racism/
I've seen more extreme examples but can't find them at the moment.
>Then tell me a story about how you've suffered
>from anti-white racism.
I haven't. Nor has anyone I know, in practice. I don't recall saying I had.
Look, I would never in a million years argue that anti-white racism is anything like the racism that African-Americans have suffered. But I cannot buy into the theory that past injustice makes the blatent racism of assholes like Farrakhan somehow less serious. Racism is racism, period.
>it's rarely (or never) in a way that really
>matters (loans, promotions, housing, etc.)
Absolutely. Except when some guy gets pulled out of a truck and beaten to death, just for being white. That sort of matters.
>Deep down, you know this, but it riles you that
>you're being held responsible for something you
>had no direct hand in. Life's a bitch, eh?
I really don't give it much thought. Fortunately, I live in Canada. We don't have nearly the racial strife (or the historical reasons for it) that the US has to deal with.
In Vancouver it's probably 50% white (that includes quite a few British, South African and eastern European immigrants), 40% Oriental and 20% east Indians. I've never met a single black person in the tech industry in Canada. Of course, they comprise a tiny percentage of the population here, so that's not a surprise.
>I think he means racism, as he said. Unless
>racism means something different in the States -
>everywhere else it can apply to anti-white as
>much as anti-black predjudice.
According to the PC crowd, there is no such thing as anti-white racism. It's simply not possible for historical oppressors to be oppressed. Or something stupid like that. Read Salon for a few weeks, someone will spell it out.
And presiding over the case? Judge Jackson... The same one who ordered the company split in the antitrust case.
Just a pure coincidence according to the article, but kinda humorous.
Jason
Considering the way Microsoft discriminated against contract employees (note big settlement), which was a clear violation of the Employee Retirement Security Act (ERISA). They obviously pay little attention to the major employment laws on the books. I doubt that Microsoft management has ever attended a seminar on employment practices..considering themselves "too smart" for such things. If those employees were discriminated against, I hope they get a zillion dollars. Microsoft should pay well for its own stupidity.
There is nothing special about anti-white discrimination that justifies a special term.
In fact, the term "reverse discrimination" is discriminatory itself and using it inappropriate.
The question asked is if prejudice exists in the tech industry. My personal take is that the industry is irrelevant. Some dotcom in Washington, D.C. will (by simple probability) have more minorities employed than, say, a dotcom in Mississippi.
It really has nothing to do with the type of company. Companies are made up of people. People that have been taught, or have taught themselves, to either respect their peers or to take issue with their ethnic background. Having grown up in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area, I learned to respect people for their merits and base my oppinions on each individual rather then the whole.
Now, working in northern Baltimore, a less diverse area, you can feel that there is more tension between the races, and this is reflected in the workplace. My wager is that you are more likely to see this sort of thing going on in a sparsely populated, ethnically similar area.
So, to get to the point, the industry is irrelevant. The people, and their mindsets, are what foster or discourage this type of behavior.
Please define "reverse discrimination," please.
to me, that term makes absolutely no sense. if it's discrimination, it's discrimination. it really doesn't have directions.
it's an aweful lot like racism. asians are historically the most racist people of all (many asian cultures believing themselves to be the descendents of the Sun or Moon or whatever god), however, in America, only White people are considered capable of racism or discrimination. In the same way, only men are capable of discriminating against women.
?
Don't you think it's time to start communicating?
>Let's set the record straight: My racial group >does not choose to be less educated...we simply >don't always have access to the same resources >growing up as whites. That can't possibly be >understood by someone who's never attended >public school in a major city (I'm from >Detroit). I took freshman EECS with 3 hundred >white guys that had been taking C classes since >the 9th grade, and the only exposure I'd had to >any form of high-level programming was self->taught. Poor K-12 education == Poor SAT/ACT != >quality higher education. This uneven playing >field is the reason for the small numbers of us >in the tech industry.
You knwo the only thing I had a problem with in all of what you said was the above... because I've lived & worked with lots of people from big cities (& lived in or near them for a long time now). & It isn't just a balck thing... It's a pure less opurtunity in the inner city classroom thing... You make it sound as if only black people in inner city schools are given a lesser education... but they arne't, it's everyone who goes to them... & you want to know something? A black person has a better chance of gettign aid to leave the inner city than his white neighbor does... it's mostly a social reason that they don't get to take up that opurtunity...
I've said my piece now...
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
A child's way of thinking about punishment would be to "right the wrong." The embarrassment of having to admit guilt publicly (along with the lost business resulting from the incident) is the deterrent.
But we live in a world where a woman can get lots of money from McDonald's because she spilled her OWN coffee in her OWN lap, but she happened to be in a McDonald's at the time.
Maybe we should think harder about the child's way of thinking. Right now the $5G lawsuit looks like a get-quick-rich-and-legally scheme. It makes me sick.
-drstatgeek (close enough, at least
What!
You must be kidding me!
Asian == person AND white == person so yes asian does equal white. Just like black equals white. We are all the same.
Get a clue! Stop being a racist.
Will
I am not a humanist.
Humanist tend to believe in a colective will.
I do not. There is only the will of the individual.
The fact of the matter is that stating that you should not equate two races as being alike is rasists.
If I was a humanist and believed in a collective will. I might also believe that there is a collective Asian will and thus belive that there is diffrences between races. Being that there is only individual will making any statement stating that there is diffrences between people and that thoes diffrences can be tied to skin color _is_ racist.
Will
No. Stating that there is diffrences between Asians and whites makes you a racist.
Will
Stereotyping is not wrong?
So stating that you are Black so you predisposed to not do well in this position or to do well in another one is ok?
Are you telling me that man can and should be put in categories like dogs?
So if Pit Bull == dog
but dog != Pit Bull
and people are the same way.
I don't think people can or should be classified that way.
Will
Nope you lost your $20.
I voted for Harry Brown.
Will
In my line of work, we often end up fighting the tools, or try to figure out why something didn't work as expected. Occasionally I'll witness a colleague having trouble with a tool or working on some mystery output, and I'll offer a suggestion on what might be happening--I do this because I generally have a better feel for what is happening behind the scenes of the application than many of my colleagues.
Some people require more justification or clarification or explanation of why they should do something a certain way.
Occasionally I'll have a pretty good idea on a new way to do things at work, and I'll talk with my boss about it, and he or she will occasionally require a lot more justification than I think is necessary.
All of my bosses, thus far, are white. If I were black, perhaps I would infer some racism in these extensive justifications. Racism that wasn't ever there.
There is nothing special about anti-white discrimination that justifies a special term.
No, that's not entirely correct. At least in the USA, there exists a strong sentiment that when a caucasian male is treated differently because of race or gender, he is just getting what's coming to him and any mistreatment he receives is justly deserved, or counts as "reparations for past injustice" or whatever. It's quite a different beast when the discrimination is widely viewed as socially justified and moral.
So, I would argue that reverse discrimination does warrant a special term if only to call attention to the fact that in many circles it is considered morally correct policy and behavior.
I am a senior at Drake University, and I have had many classes with some very bright people of African decent. The problem? They were all forien students from Africa. None of them were from the US. Microsoft isn't at fault, we (as in from the US) are.
Why don't black students in the US take Math and Computer science courses while their white/asian/hispanic peers do? They aren't encouraged too. How many high school principals/teachers/guidence counselors actually go out and recruit African American students to take Calculus, programming, or Discrete Math in high school? If every US reader on Slashdot went to their local school board and raised the issue I bet there would be at least a 10% increase nation wide in the number of African Americans going enrolling in college math/physics/computer science courses in the next two years.
Every high school student should be encouraged to take math/science courses regardless of their race.
bash-2.04$
bash-2.04$yes "Don't you hate dialup connections?"| write USERNAME
With a 'B' - how freakin ridiculous is that... sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will cost you $5 Billion.
I've worked with many more blacks (men and women) who were good solid engineers. But those two loud mouthed black women stuck out. They used affirmitive action to keep their jobs and to get promotions. Believe me bigots will focus on them and ignore the good solid workers. They will use it to justify their beliefs that blacks are inferior ignoring the evidence that the majority of black engineers (few that they are) are just as competant as non-blacks.
You know AA can be used by a bigot to prove their point.
Actually there are two important factors for Asians excelling in the Tech industry. First, many learn English as a 2nd language, even 2nd and 3rd generation Asians. I've worked with many of them and they all said the same thing, it is easy to be a Math Major versus a History Major. You can learn and understand mathematics with very little English comprehension and with weak writting skills. Second, many 2nd and 3rd generation Asians still have a strong sense of Confucious (sp?) sensibility, that strong sense of family identity versus individual. Also this race stuff is a bunch of bullshit!!! There ain't no such beast. We all be the same species with variations in appearance. Many of us come from different cultures and happen to look more alike, but there just ain't no genetic bias that says blacks are better athletes and whites are better engineers. I've worked with an engineer that believed dark eyes meant you were full of shit (he had dark brown eyes and white skin) and was following some cult to lighten his eye color. He examined his eyes each day to measure how much shit he had eliminated. Yet he was still a good programmer (and we both would agree he was full of shit). My point being we, humans that is, believe lots of stupid ideas. Some are benign (dark eyes = full of shit) and others can be brutal (blacks = inferior race). Both are controlled by genetics and make us look different but don't cause us to be better or worse at anything.
Where did this "reverse discrimination" phrase come from? Discrimination is "treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit," be it fostered upon blacks, whites, males, females, etc. It doesn't matter where it comes from or who it's aimed at.
As for the sports, since when does presence = fair treatment? Besides, you're only thinking about players. What about refs, judges, managers, owners...?
If I ever come to power, I am going to make it my mission to utterly destroy affirmitive action and make it law that no corporation may hire anyone on any basis other than qualifications relevant to the work being done. Having "quotas" that grant preference by race or gender instead of qualifications is just as evil as saying "I don't hire niggers or spicks, and a woman's place is in the kitchen." Affirmitive action is racism and sexism, all rolled into one.
Maybe he DAREs do that because, like me, he sees minorities using food stamps to buy food and then loading it into Lexuses in the parking lot. Being a minority is not a crime. There is no basis behind making statements to the effect that white people are somehow "better." However, I have seen numerous minorities take advantage of society's bleeding-heart sensitivity to a person's ethnicity and gender and use this sensitivity to commit acts of laziness and unethicality. They are just as bad as the ignorant fools who dance around in bedsheets and light crosses on fire; they say pretty much the same things - just worded differently.
His post seems to me to be nothing more than an observation. He does not seem to be implying anything by it.
No it doesn't. You can still measure productivity, output, number of (or absence of) sick days, (to a certain extent) opinions of co-workers, etc. Most importantly, what do the reviews say? I don't know about MS, but at my company, when someone gets a review, they are supposed to read it and write in any comments and sign off on it. How do the reviews compare with measurable output?
I know you won't read this but I'll post it anyway. I had to put up with racism from blacks and "chicanos" or whatever the term of the day is all throughout junior high and the first year of high school. So did every other white kid in the district. This image of the "poor minorities" doesn't fly with me. Get a life.
By "blatant racial discrimination" are you referring to the MS plaintiffs, the original troll who's claiming that victims of discrimination actually like it/can't live without it, or *koff* the presumably white students complaining about being outcompeted by asians ? And there must be something wrong with your display (or cognitive functions) if you think all I said was "boohoo" because there was clearly more (in this as well as other threads).
So, me having little sympathy for white students who complain about being fairly outcompeted by asian students who probably had similar levels of opportunity/resources, yet in the same breath condemn a system which (though imperfectly) attempts to give some advantage to other minority students who had fewer opportunities/resources discredits any claims I have of experiencing bigotry...right.
And if voicing a dissenting opinion about a paranoid racist makes me an asshole, then so be it.
Okay this is an AC, but this crappy erroneous analogy plus malapropism is just annoying. There is a GULF of "difference" between people who were born and raised in an English speaking country, with ample resources, and who are actually ENROLLED in institutions of higher learning with supposed standards, vs. people who grew up speaking a language other than English and who have been able to master some fluency of a fairly complicated language (English has all kinds of weird rules, etc.) in a few years.
And do you know what racism is ? You might want to consult a dictionary. Perhaps the word you were groping for was bigotry or prejudice, neither of which apply here since I expect college students to have a modicum of orthographic/grammar skills.
This is a joke, right ? Just pokin' fun at some stereotypes, right ? How was this not moderated as flamebait ?
Induhviduals. Individuals can be racist. "Isolated incidents will happen," but if it's, say, the HR head who hires likeminded underlings then the whole hiring process is affected. You can call me paranoid, but implausible, no.
After taking all those women's studies courses I can't believe I left that one out. White women do benefit the most from affirmative action programs (whether it be because it's easiest for them to get their collective feet in the door or b/c of some other reason).
Again, I guess those white college kids really do need the extra funding since they can't type/spell/follow standard rules of grammar despite being so qualified and smart...nor do they realize that posting as an anonymous coward does not reveal one's email address.
Assuming you're white, I guess you really do need that money since your spelling/typing is atrocious. Oh no ! The yellow tide is going to disenfranchise white college kids, boohoo. I guess you don't know about the quotas/caps at some schools which disallow entrance of more hordes of asians because the schools gotta give those poor white kids (TM) a fighting chance.
You really have no idea how it feels to be hated/fear persecution simply for the color of your skin do you, because if you did you'd never write the pap you did.
Uh...I didn't see it specified in the article what percentage of the people filing the suit were "low level types." (head of a unit sounds high enough to me.)
Either way, there's no analysis of the available pool of workers vs. workers hired so I don't know how much of a case they've got.
I think he was referring more to the treatment of people and not how many are hired.
I don't see the tech industry, or ANY large industry as being racist in and of itself.
One person can be racist -- but is that the fault of the company? No. Its the fault of the managers.
On another note.
Yes, many people of the previous generation aren't pushing minorities (blacks, women, hispanics, gays, what-EVER) into the tech field.
It happened to me, I was told "Women don't DO that. Its not proper" (Ah, Catholic school. Ah. Nuns. And they wonder why I don't do the God thing anymore)
However, I was smart and strong enough to get PAST it. To tell them "Bugger off, I'll do what I like, see if I don't!" -- And because of it, I have the chance to encourage younger girls to get into the tech field.
We don't need lawsuits. We don't need court-crap and quotas, because ALL they do is make the rest of us think "Well, you were too pathetic to see the train before it hit you and get out and find someplace that WOULD promote you."
This isn't the 1800's. Or the 1900's for that matter. We aren't seeing people get lynched for hiring a black man, or a woman. We don't have Jim Crow laws.
Yes, we have subvertive means of the same things. But we're a DAMN Sight better off than we were 50, 100 years ago.
What we need now is for the people in the industry to speak up, to tell the kids, teenagers today that they CAN do it if they want to. That its not wrong, or bad, or 'unfeminine' or 'white' or "Not keeping it real".
Become the change you want to see.
Poor little no puppy toe!
http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?3357354385
When you sue for punitive damages, you want an award that will hurt the company you're suing. That's the whole intent of most lawsuits: send a message saying "We will hurt you if you hurt us". $5,000,000,000 is a hefty chunk of change for Microsoft. A smaller company would almost certainly be hit with a smaller lawsuit.
2.6% of that MICROS~1 work force is black, but only 7 people are joining the lawsuit. That means there's about 570 other blacks at MS that DON'T think MS is engaging in systematic discrimination, or at least don't think they have a snowball's chance in hell of winning the lawsuit, or they would have joined for a share of that $5 billion prize money. (Beats the heck out of Who Wants To Be a Millionaire, doesn't it?) Maybe the 1.2% of black employees that are suing weren't promoted because they were incompetent, while the 98.8% that aren't suing WERE competetent and were rewarded proportional to their contributions to the company.
Also, were does that 2.6% number come from? My guess is from voluntary reporting on employment application forms. Now, if half the black employees are like me and always decline to give that information, then blacks ARE proportionately represented. Also, the article fails to mention that 23% of MS employees identify themselves as minorities, so it seems it's not quite the exclusive domain of pasty white boys.
Some open questions: What percentage of employees of software firms in general are black? When I worked at Intel, it seemed like less than 1% of the employees were black. For some reason, blacks appear to be extremely underrepresented in an industry that hires ANY nationality based almost entirely on competence. What percentage of open source developers are black? What percentage of college grads with CS degrees are black? If their aren't any qualified black applying for jobs, you can't hire them, can you?
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Hello! This is a market-wide phenomenon!! There's such a tight market for IT and Engineer people that companies can't AFFORD to be racist. There are so few black people in the IT world because there are so few prospective black employees! It has nothing to do with racism.
I really want to see some proof of this racism. It seems like this is a good way of getting back at M$, if it is indeed false.
Trains stop at a train station. Buses stop at a bus station.
Buses stop at a bus station
Trains stop at a train station
On my desk there's a workstation....
Okay, let's think about this sensibly. I point out that Asians and Asian Americans can be the victims of racism, and by doing so that makes me a racist? Or I mention that some people perpetuate a myth of Asian Americans as a model minority so that they can trivialize other ethnic groups' experiences of racism, and that makes a racist?
Care to back up what you're saying, or are you just trolling? Frankly, I don't think you took the time to grasp any arguments I put forth; otherwise you wouldn't be making such nonsensical claims.
For the record, I'm half-European-American, half-Vietnamese. I identify as an Asian American. I think I know what I am talking about, but I welcome your opinion--whatever your background--if you are able to back it up.
Last time I checked, the US was founded by whites on land originally inhabited by non-white people, whom the whites later systematically exterminated or turned into refugees.
Don't be silly, of course I know that the US was founded by whites, and thus its power structure, literature, history, and culture primarily reflects the interests of whites. My point is that those systems no longer reflect the lives and interests of the people who live under them. Our understanding of the world needs to change for us to begin operating in it sanely and fairly.
And is the idea that racism as a meaningful concept makes sense in terms of power relations really such a copout? I think the man who hates and holds the whip is something altogether different from the man who hates because he is whipped. To me, to deny this is a copout.
And yes, mean people are dumb. Mod that one up for insight.
Oh, come on. Quite frankly, I'm tired of hearing the phrase "reverse discrimination" being bandied about as if it were meaningful. Take some time and think about what racism is. It's a system of oppression that works all the way up and down the social structure, systematically and non-systematically, formally and informally, consciously and unconsciously. And the key factor that gives various modes of racism their bite is power relations. "Reverse discrimination" is not equivalent to white discrimination against blacks, Latinos, Asians, native Americans, etc. The world we live in would have to be utterly different.
Let's be straight. This society is dominated by white people at every level. We have a white government, a white literature, a white history, white entertainment. Things have been changing tentatively and slowly for the better (where better means equal access and equal time for all people, not some sort of dimly imagined anti-white backlash, so calm down), but unless the configurations of power are completely reversed, charges of "reverse discrimination" really don't hold that much relative weight, and it's frankly insulting to compare it to the virulent racism that this country has known and still knows.
White people need to come off the defensive. Calm down. The world is still yours.
Not to go off on a tangent, but I keep seeing references to Asians enjoying a discrimination-free environment in the tech industry, in contrast to African-Americans and Latinos. While one is likely to find more Asians and Asian Americans in the tech industry than African-Americans and Latinos, primarily due to economic reasons, it is absolutely untrue to claim that they don't face discrimination in the workplace.
Don't tell me you've never heard anyone make fun of an Indian or Pakistani programmer, at the very least. At my workplace, I've heard white programmers claim that the Indian programmers are lazy and unskilled, when there was clearly no evidence to support those assertions. I've heard people strain themselves to find excuses not to take Indian employees seriously--"They have poor communication skills"--sometimes true, but more likely, the critiquers have poor listening skills. When a big layoff occurred at my old job, the first people to get the axe where the Indian programmers, and they were some of the most talented employees. I could go on and on. And I bet most of you could also if you thought about it.
Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that I consider Asians as "honorary" whites. It's a problematic idea that I hear a lot of people saying.
If their numbers are right in terms of percentage of workers, vs percentage of managers, then YES, there is discrimination. The difference in percentages is just too big.
LongTail SSH Brute Force analysis tool is here!
The plaintiffs do. Functionally, a punitive award is the same as statutory or compensatory (actual) damages, it just has no real bounds. But unlike actual and statutory damages, punitive damages can be tied up endlessly in court, appealed, set aside or reduced, etc.
Microsoft isn't discriminating against these people, when I worked there they treated everyone like that. It doesn't matter what race you are, or even what skills you have, if you are a pompous ass you can go anywhere you want in that company.
This part of my post is off topic, but I won't be around to thank him/her later since I'm leaving for the day. I would like to thank the bigoted Anonymous Coward who pays copious amounts of admiration to my "pansy ass" on everything I post. I always thought it was more of a daffodil-ass, but since I can't see back there that well I'll take your word for it.
The assumption among intelligent techies that they're too intelligent to be racist (or sexist, or otherwise bigoted) continues to amaze and frustrate me. Bigotry has nothing to do with intelligence or lack thereof. We live in a racist society, and that means some of the ideas, habits, and attitudes we adopt without realizing we are adopting them (which is known as acculturation), are racist. The only thing we can do, but that thing which we absolutely must do, is to try to recognize when we've unwittingly accepted bigotry--or bigoted behaviors, etc.--from our environment, and to reject that influence, replacing it with an anti-racist alternative.
I grew up in a progressive, multiracial, urban environment; because of this, I've known the above reality since I was preadolescent. That doesn't make me automatically liberated from racism, anymore than does the intelligence which God blessed me with. On the other hand, it does give me the ethical responsibility to fight bigotry both in and around me--with all the privileges I've been given, there's no excuse.
This attitude of "we're too intelligent to be racist: give me a talented programmer, and I'll hire him/her, white, black, or green!" is pure poison, and is the intellectual easy-way-out. It perpetuates accidental and institutional racism. It allows companies to tolerate hiring practices whereby they hire the friends, former-college-housemates, etc., of those already working there: if all/most of their friends are white--which is standard for a great many of non/anti-racist whites in this country--what do you think will happen? When the rules of a system favor one group, we're not surprised when that group dominates. This happens whether the people executing the rules want it to or not. And that's a real dirty secret in our industry. It's not enough for well-intentioned people to not actively discriminate; it's not even enough for well-intentioned people to fight active discrimination; we in this industry tend to be blessed with intelligence; along with privilege (intelligence) comes responsibility (intellectual rigor); intelligent, well-intentioned people in our industry, as in general, need to fight systemic bias, institutional racism, and accidental bigotry. That's the only way we can achieve communities where everyone is proud, everyone holds one's head high, everyone is respected, and where everyone can achieve. If we go the other way, we're all lost.
--Just Another Pimp Ass Urban Guinea
While I can't fully agree or disagree with their basis for the suit (though I tend to disagree), I believe they are suing for what they believed they would have earned in stock options by this time if the Microsoft "Man" hadn't kept them down. I'll be extremely disappointed, even though I'm no big MS fan, if these racism charges are true, but I never believe them at first, the racism charge is such an easy cop out these days thanks to folks like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.
Zed's dead baby. Zed's dead.
There is no such thing as "reverse discrimination". You either discriminate or you don't. It does not matter who you're discriminating against, if you're doing it, it's discriminating.
For you to even say the phrase "reverse discrimination", you're discriminating yourself. You're implying that discrimination only works for whites towards blacks, which is in itself, a racial bias.
Whites discriminating against blacks is equal to blacks discriminating against whites. Terms like "reverse discrimination" imply that one is worse than the other, which is biased.
the term "reverse discrimination" implys that discrimination only means whites discriminating towards blacks. This is not true. Whites discriminating towards blacks is discrimination. Blacks discriminating towards whites is discrimination. There is no "reverse". You discriminate or you don't. It doesn't matter who's doing it, or who it's toward, it's discrimination.
No, your rationale only relates to compensatory damages -- money which compensates the employees for what the employees lost. However, the $5B includes punitive damages -- money which prevents the company from doing it again. Otherwise, companies would always do the wrong thing and hope that they don't get sued. Even if they do get sued, their payment is deferred for months, even years, which usually works out to their benefit. But I do agree that $5B is an absoultely ludicrous figure. I haven't seen the breakdown of how they get $5B, either.
Under most circumstances, In the United States you can sue whoever you want, for whatever amount of money you want. But you will have to demonstrate not only that the person or company that you are suing behaved badly but that you were tangibly harmed by it.
Just because you can sue someone, doesn't mean that you will win. You may have your case thrown out, or you may even be counter-sued. Additionally, if you lose, you will have to pay court costs and a lawter. Even if you win, you rarely get exactly what you asked for. If you actually intend to be awarded what you ask for, you will have to demonstrate the damage that was done.
These former Microsoft Employees know that they probably won't win this case, and they also know that even if they did, no judge or jury would award them *nearly* $5 Billion. The goal is not to win the case, but rather to force Microsoft to settle out of court for a few million rather than risk losing much more and being humiliated in public.
The reason they are asking for such a ludicrous amount of money is to generate publicity and embarrass Microsoft into settling.
2000-08-29 21:40:08 Sexual Harrassment at Microsoft (articles,news) (rejected)
2000-10-27 08:36:58 Hackers Break In to Microsoft's Network (articles,microsoft) (rejected)
<doublespeak> Which is not to imply that I don't love Microsoft. </doublespeak>
Free music from Jack Merlot.
Affirmative action based on race for example affirms the validity on generalizing about a person's circumstances and abilities by looking only at the person's race.
Affirmative action is still practiced, and is supported by most blacks. At the same time, they complain about racial profiling in police matters, as well as the work place, when this only uses the same principle.
I don't even have words.
If anyone is profiting from racism, it is 51% of that 38% that you mentioned, namely, white women. White women have always been the LARGEST beneficiaries from minority-based scholarships and have always had the LEAST need.
How DARE you depict minorities as sitting back and collecting state/federal money. Any minority that receives DOLLAR ONE from any minority scholarship had to be admitted first, which makes them JUST as qualified (if not more so) than you.
And this is coming from someone who's scholarships were ALL academic, and who busted their ass to pay for school, while my non-minority classmates drank themselves into comas all weekend and blew their trust fund money on ski trips and new cars. Spare me. Financial need is financial need.
--Just Another Pimp A$$ Perl Hacker
El riesgo vive siempre!
Having lived in a community which has a fairly large percentage of Asian/Black/non-white among its populace; there were lots of times where self-appointed leaders of those ethnic communities decided to play the race card in order to get a better deal for themselves.
For example, several religious leaders of the Islamic faith wanted to build a place of worship nearby for the benefit of the Islamic community.... this is something neither I nor the majority of our town had a problem with; however, they wanted to build it with taxpayer's money.
Now, as most people saw it, no other faiths in the community (note: Christians/Hindus/Jews all pay tax as well!) had received any Government funding with regards the building or maintenance of their relevant churches/temples/synagogues... all having to rely on financial support from their worshippers/parishoners and not from the government.
So, the Islamic group who made the application for funds were turned down on the grounds that it was not in the interests of the taxpayer to support such a venture.
They promptly shouted down the local politicians and claimed that the decision was 'racist' - and demanded the resignation of council members responsible for making the decision. The fact that just over 30% of the committee was made up of various ethnic minorities made no difference to these people.
In the end, they managed to organize fund-raising events and some local businessmen made substantial contributions to support the building of a mosque. So everybody *was* happy in the end :-)
I know that Microsoft are a lot of things; and I'm sure that plenty of Slashdot readers will be quick to throw some pretty nasty insults in the direction of Redmond thick and fast. However, the amount of compensation these people are asking for is incredible; people who are seriously maimed for life by shitheads like drunk drivers get far less than that and I can't imagine Microsoft would do something that would alienate themselves from those large foreign corporates who would be offended to deal with such a company.
In closing, the 'race' card should only be played when it will truly mean something and it can be proven that racial discrimination is at work; otherwise it will lose its meaning to both judge and jury when deciding whether someone has been genuinely discriminated against or is just out to make a fast buck from their skin colour.
"Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting wuntime ewwors!" - Elmer Fudd
"Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting wuntime ewwors!" - Elmer Fudd
According to this University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire study, it seems that 4.8% of the population in Seattle is black. (Total of 13.5% minority population...) Mix that with the amount of minority population in the Technology sector, and 1.2% still seems awfully low.
that Microsoft uses all the money they donate to minority causes and uses it to defend themselves. Microsoft has is were it is by using talented people I real doubt they would hold back anyone who was truly qualified.
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
Been there, did that, and still did better and all blacks.
Cut the crap! I went to public middle/high schools in DC that had 99% black students. We all had access to the same resources. Most of the black (not all, and the handful left did do well) chose not to challenge themselves in classes, but rather chose to fool around and/or skip classes all together. Now you are telling me blacks didn't have the same access as other people to resources, give me a fucking break. The only reason there aren't too many blacks in the tech field is that they chose not to do it. They chose to spend their time on something else (God knows what, learning how to use guns to kill each other, maybe). The only way to help blacks is to make sure each one of them knows the importance of education and actually do something about it besides saying "I want a high paying tech job. I want to be treated equally. I want..." No one is gonna give it to you (well, perhaps affirmative action), go get it yourself. Oh, I am a minority too.
I once lived in the same neighborhood as blacks and Hispanics. I went to the same school with them. My father has only high school education while my mother has only middle school education. And yet, they taught me the importance of education, and I knew what I had to do to make something out of myself. Listen, man changes environment. I know I did. If one is strong-willed enough, he can over come any obstacles. Why are Indians and Asians different? Most of them are poorer than blacks in this country when they first arrive in this country. Stop whinning! Suppose you run a company, and you only have 1 job openning, 2 men show up, one black and one white, of couse you will pick a more qualified one (assuming no racism), and each of them will have 50% chances getting the job. Now, suppose you have one job openning, 1000 people show up, 999 of them are white, only 1 of them is black, the chance for hiring the black is small (even when assuming equal skill set, experience, etc and no racism), just basic statistics. The reason there are so many white candidates is they have a larger portion of the population and they work relatively harder. Oh, I am an Asian, so this is from a minority's view.
Reverse Discrimination? There is no such thing... well, actually there is, it would be "not discriminating". If a black person doesn't like a white person because of thier color it isn't reverse discrimination, it's just plain discrimination.
I do know a little about these lawsuits. Most of us have read about these bizare suits where billion dollar judgements is awarded in cash to the lawyers and discount coupons to the "class". A relative of mine has told me a little more, because he IS one of these evil beasts.
He joined the great wave of tobaco litigation just in time to loose some time and money representing blackjack dealers in Las Vegas. This is one of the more subtle second hand suits that argue that the victims (all heavy smokers and drinkers!) had to inhale second hand smoke for a living. The more muddled the better. He has put up thousands of dollars flying out to Las Vegas, and hundreds of hours. The biggest lesson I learned is this: The law encourages people to waste as much time and energy as possible because damages are larger that way, and so are the fees awarded.
The case that turned his career was his own son's personal injury suit. His son crippled himself binge drinking and driving every other night the summer before he was to go to College. The driver was killed and another boy seriously injured when they ran their stupid urban vehicle into a utility pole (how's that for a nice safe car?). Because the insurance company fought payments of any kind and refused to settle, my step brother became independently wealthy. Bingo! just like that. Since then, he's been willing to hazzard these kinds of cases.
The true insanity began with suits against the city, the utility company and others only remotly involved. The tobaco case came once his reputation was really soiled. I'm waiting for the city to charge him and the other parents with child neglect.
All of this is perfectly legal, but utterly wasteful and immoral. The problem is not the lawyers, however, it's the law! People will do what they can.
Where did these things come from? For the modern lawsuit and limitless punative damages, you can thank Ralph Nader. You can then thank Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and the Trail Lawyers Association for making these suits bigger than life and expanding the concepts into the isms.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
First, let me be frank: I don't agree with suing for $5billion. Nor do I agree with using the small percentage of dumb MSFT workers as leverage. What I DO agree with is the basis behind their argument, which is the EXACT same attitude being reinforced on this board.
Everywhere I've worked (Web application programming) I've been seen as a remarkably compentent, skilled worker....until I meet the customer face-to-face. Then, suddenly, my decisions are questioned more, people go over my head to ask about things that are my responsibility, I get blank stares and muffled, off-topic responses. Even back to college (University of Alberta), I was faced every day with fellow students less intelligent than me, and professors who were obviously intimidated that I was there, assuming that I was only there only to point out their obvious faults(I've got that in the workplace as well).
It seems the general consensus among stupid tech workers is that they somehow belong in the industry. If they are up for a promotion against a far more skilled minority, of COURSE they get the promotion, because they toe the company line. Because the majority of tech managers are ALSO stupid, this attitude is perpetuated.
Let's set the record straight: My elite group does not choose to be smarter...we simply don't always have access to the same resources, growing up as geniuses and all. That can't possibly be understood by someone who's never attended accelerated education classes in a major city (I'm from Edmonton). I took freshman EECS with 3 hundred stupid guys that had been taking C classes since the 9th grade, and hadn't learned a thing, and the only exposure I'd had to any form of idiot-level programming was self-inflicted. Great K-12 education == Great SAT/ACT = high quality higher education. This uneven playing field is the reason for the small numbers of us in the tech industry.
I'm sick of typing at this point, and I've got Apache modules to code. To sum up, stop with the "Idiots are always complaining...why don't they just get jobs...they have as much access to higher education as we do" crap. Find an idiot on your job site, and ask him where he's from, and what high school he attended (if they can even remember). I guarantee he's either got parents as stupid as most of yours, or he sucked his boss off to get to where he is now.
-- kwashiorkor --
Leaps in Logic
should not be confused with
-- kwashiorkor --
Leaps in Logic
should not be confused with
Jumping to Conclusions.
Here are some simple steps to eliminate racism, and discrimination in technology today.
1) Don't let people use real names on anything official, give everyone a username something like bla456. Never let people associate your real name with your username.
2) Put many departments together, everyone with the same kind of cubicle, in random patterns so no one knows who is the big boss.
3) If someone might break your system give him privilages like, working from home.
Sad to say I'm Latin, living in Utah, and working from home. I guess some people might get mad to have me as a boss.
psxndc
The emacs religion: to be saved, control excess.
psxndc
The emacs religion: to be saved, control excess.
This, my friend was exactly my point. This is why it is stupid, ignorant, selfish, and RACIST for these assholes to try to milk the system for $5 f'n billion dollars.
All kings is mostly rapscallions. -Mark Twain, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
While I and about 3% of employees at my place of work have curly hair, 0% of the management does. I have been continuosly passed up for promotion by others from both within and without the company WHO HAVE STRAIGHT HAIR. Clearly, I am being discriminated against, and suing for $5 billion is warranted.
Statistics can never prove discrimination in the absence of clear discriminatory actions. Besides, those in a recognized minority such as "blacks" recieve many more benefits and advantages than someone like myself who belongs to an unrecognized minority. (I am a 6 foot tall 30 year old male of germanic descent with dark curly hair, green eyes between 180 and 190 lbs with a 10 1/2 shoe size.) In seriousness, due to my location, there have many times in schooling and employment where as a "huelo" I have been a distinct minority and faced more clear discrimination than the average "black" man has faced in decades.
All kings is mostly rapscallions. -Mark Twain, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
I grew up in an affluent white suburb of Atlanta, GA. I am caucasian, but I am not rich by any means, therefore I have been at a disadvantage at my own schooling. I have never lashed out at anyone for them making me not as wealthy as others in my area, but I managed myself through school and made a name for myself as an individual, NOT as a lower middle class white anglo-saxon protestant. I have worked in the Technology sector for years now, and I am almost done with college. Being at a major university, I see lots of forms of segregation. None strike me so much as the way that the blacks at my school want to be left alone or given preferential treatment. I use the term blacks because not all people of that race are from africa, I have black friends from england and france who abhor being called an african american. Therefore, I refuse to call every black person I see an african american because that is a stereotype no matter how you see it. Now at my particular college, which shall remain nameless, if you go into the student center at lunch time, you see two things, a section of an assortment of races and genders spread out amongst the room, except for one large cluster in the middle that is predominantly black. Two of my friends are a mix of white and black, and they are ridiculed consistently for sitting with non-blacks. I found this rather peculiar until I learned why. Many blacks at my school consider anyone who is "not black enough" to be rogues of their race. I think that as a white male, I don't care who any white person sits with because they make their choices based on personal comfort not on race. As for being in classes, this rule somewhat applies still. In my school, a big engineering school, I have seen few black students. There are some who distinguish themselves and are model students. Then there are also many african american culture majors who ride by with C's and D's all through college. I notice that very few blacks go into CS or CIS at all. Mostly I see white males, Indians, and Asians. Believe me, we are not gender bias in the CS department. We would LOVE for any female who wishes to enter our classes to do so. Believe me, we really REALLY want more women in CS. I find that microsoft, based in multitudes of countries in the world, breaking both racial and ethnic barriers, is obviously not guilty of racism. Is microsoft to blame for an employee feeling out of place at their job? No. That employee can request a transfer within the company to a department more to their liking, which is allowed and encouraged instead of leaving. Some may say that this is wrong because they make the employee move, well Microsoft does not make the employee move. Microsoft employees must adhere at all times to certain standards set by the company, and if an employee breaks those standards, that employee may be fired, as with any other company on the planet. By this I mean that if a manager or co-worker were to make a racist joke or comment, that worker would be fired. I personally am more offended by gansta rap and the black entertainment channel than I am by hearing a white joke at work. Yes we can't dance, and believe me, I don't even try. Now should a black person at my work make a comment about race, I'll take it in good humor. If they go putting kill whitey signs in my cubicle, then I'll probably type harder :) After a while, then I would complain to the manager, but personally, I don't see how putting up with other people's crap is grounds for stealing 5 Billion dollars from a company. Believe me, this is nothing more than a scam for a few people to get rich off the fat of a successful company and I hope they lose on grounds of stupidity. I commend microsoft for hiring a diverse group, asians, blacks, hispanics, caucasians, indians, and especially arabs, check iran the next time encryption software is made..... To make a long story short, these jilted few who are suing microsoft deserve to be sued themselves for trying to take advantage of their race for financial gain. If being poor and white in an extremely wealthy white area meant that I could sue for billions, I wouldn't even do it. The issue isn't racism, but rather integrity and honesty.
I very much agree with you, but the way that "democracy" is set up, we have to accomodate everyone equally. I find this quite hard to believe since there are special groups in schools, such as the talented and gifted program at many k-12 institutions, which there are few black students. I feel that we should separate those that want to succeed from those who don't. I took Advanced Placement courses at my high school because I couldn't stand sitting in the classes with the cretons any longer. I received all benefits from that, and I encourage that program to continue because it is a legal way to separate the achievers from the morons. Although, when I take over the world one day, we'll run everything based on intelligence and ability instead of race and gender. But that's not happening anytime soon, so parents, urge your kids into AP courses!
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
From a business perspective, he must be smart. However, most people overstate his programming and technical skills, since for the most part he didn't create the products his company sold, even in the early days, but rather just supervised their design and helped create the market for them. He had enough contacts and enough business sense to make lucrative deals in the early days that pretty much assured him the position he has now.
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
And I think it was Homer Simpson that said...47% of all statistics are made up...14% of the people know that!
But my numbers may be egregiously incorrect! Good point about lining up the numbers at M$ against those across the industry.
Galego
Que Deus te de em dobro o que me desejas
[May God give you double that which you wish for me]
How to define racism? Here's a good start.. "pompous self rightous prick religious mormon fanatic"
Plus, take the 1st/2nd generation thing a bit more seriously with regard to the more "industrious" asian groups (e.g., Chinese, Korean). The more Americanized they become, the less they will push their kids, in generations to come. For a group a bit further in this cycle, look at the Japanese-Americans in California. Some are past 5th generation, and while as a whole they seem to do reasonably well, the ambition and group pressure to excell isn't present to the same degree. If you look at enrollment at MIT for example, the predominant asian group was Japanese-American from the 50's through the 70's, but now there are virtually none in the admitted classes, with tons of ABC/FOB's and Korean kids taking their place.
It's true that many Chinese and Korean immigrants bring virtually no wealth with them, but they find very sophisticated support structures already in place in their respective immigrant communities. The extreme emphasis on kin also helps, with aunts and uncles or other relatives willing to help out. As a final note, since it seems like you're a supporter of true rugged American individualism (TM), try moving into Compton and raising your kids there. Even if you were to instill a good work ethic, the school system is abysmal enough that straight-A's won't get your kid very far, lacking AP classing and extracurriculars.
Cheers
In 1919 the NAACP published Thirty Years of Lynching in the United States: 1889-1918.
Between 1919 and 1922, a further 239 blacks were lynched by white mobs and many more were killed by individual acts of violence and unrecorded lynchings. In none of these cases was a white person punished for these crimes.
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root,
Black body swinging in the Southern breeze,
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees.
Pastoral scene of the gallant South,
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth,
Scent of magnolia sweet and fresh,
And the sudden smell of burning flesh!
Here is a fruit for the crows to pluck,
For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck,
For the sun to rot, for a tree to drop,
Here is a strange and bitter crop.
Abel Meeropol, Strange Fruit, (1939)
I'm not sure I understand. The poem refers to lynching, a sport in which Massachusetts was far outmatched by the states of the deep South, not slavery per se.
It seems that these people expect everything to go their way, but if it doesn't, they bitch and whine about it because they think it's caused by the fact that they're a minority. Some people think that they should get special treatment only because they belong to a minority group. Hmm, isn't that just as unfair as getting special treatment only because you belong to a MAJORITY group?
NEWSFLASH! The world doesn't exist for your benefit. These things happen to EVERYONE. Grow up a little.
So the guy got passed over for a promotion. Big deal! I can't begin to tell you how many times I've been passed over for one, when other, LESS QUALIFIED, people get it instead. Oh well. That's the way that businesses work, it never makes any sense. Especially in a large company like MS, I'm sure it's extremely easy to get overlooked.
One thing that jumps out at me about this whole deal is the money they want. 5 billion dollars?! Hm, this kinda reeks of "Hey, MS is rich! Let's try and get money out of them any way we can! Wait, we're a minority! HOW CONVENIENT!"
Oh, and on a side note, I love how the Slashdot crew passed over a bunch of great submissions (I'm sure) for a chance to bash MS. If this were any other company, they wouldn't touch the story.
-- Dr. Eldarion, who seems to be in a rather cranky mood today. --
Everytime MS comes up in a story, we have SlashBots spewing crap about MS treating it's workers as slaves. They're probably posting from their cubicles while they're wearing ties, those of them that are actually employed.
I've worked at MS too, so I know your post is 100% accurate.
Right on. That's exactly the way to fix this problem. Spend the money to ensure that the poor school districts can offer an equivalent education to those in the suburbs. That's the only kind of AA that is acceptable. And it's not even AA, really, since it will help the poor white kids too, who can too easily fall between the cracks. And once they graduate, let everyone compete on the same level.
Yes, there will still be a few diehards who won't hire young blacks with good educations, but they won't live forever. And those who replace them won't have the same biases.
At the beginning of this century people wouldn't hire Irish or Italians, because they were considered violent, irresponsible, uneducated scum. They actually put signs in the window saying "No Irish".
No one would ever say that now. Amazing what a few generations of equivalent education can do. And it can be done without the injustice of reverse discrimination and the inevitable backlash it inspires.
No, they're the ones that don't generally apply to computer jobs. I have no idea why, but it's been that way in every place I've worked. Claiming MS is racist when every other person here is asian or east indian is a little silly, don't you think?
Fucking right it is. I once tried out the Boston Celtics but the racist bastards wouldn't hire me. Anyone interested in going in with me for a class action suit? I'm not greedy, I'll settle for a million.
No, the poster's logic was good. I noticed you never answered his question of whether descendents of Booth should pay out to descendents of Lincoln.
The japanese internment analogy doesn't wash either, since these are people who actually were interned, rather than just their descendents. A closer analogy would be to offer compensation to all former slaves. Since slavery was outlawed 140 years ago, though, I don't think we'll have many takers.
In response to this fact... just ask around and do some research on your own, and you find all the places that enforce the racist affirmative action quotas and are proud of it. Many will one of two things:
1. Well, its about time that whitey got whats coming to him
2. Poor white-boy, I don't see this, and if I did.. see number (1)
Well, lets break this down. First, number one implies that revenge is acceptable. It also implies that the person seeking revenge does not have to be the person wronged and the person that the revenge is aimed at does not have to be the person who wronged the individual. Second, the denial that reverse descrimination exists is hypocritial when applied by the same person, or in the same instance as one who is attempting to prove that racism BY whites is apparent. Also, it degrades the person in the very same degree of loss of dignity and lack of credibility that every self-claimed victim of racism uses as the hallmark of their 'cause'.
So perhaps the biggest point of all of this is simply to back up and analyze things on their own merit, not from our emotional reactions and biases. Descrimination is descrimination, period. You cannot justify one, deny another, then hope to have credibility when claiming that only racism by whites is a problem. BTW, I have on many occasions had black people tell me that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be racist and non-white.
Like in so many other experiences in life, this one should teach us that integrity is the most important aspect of human life. Whether it is racism, rape, politics, you name it... when it comes down to the point that there are seperate standards for different people and issues, and when (usually this is the cause) large flocks of people consistently abuse the claim, like in "The Boy Who Cried 'Wolf'" all suffer, but the oppressed suffer the most. People in an office who see only coworkers will judge by competency and skill. If race or some other sensitive PC issue is thrown in, they will see those people as different. If they see this long enough, especially if the claim is obviously bogus and the 'victimized' worker is incompetent and below the level of good workers but with better pay, benefits, and enjoys a larger margin for error (basically they are babied and always appeased) then the coworkers will see the other people as weaker, lesser, and naturally inable to operate on the same playing field as everyone else.
The liberal rationalization is based on emotional reaction and pays no attention to facts and past performance. It refuses to look at the long term and the big picture, and misses the common sense of the issue. If you push others around they will eventually push back. Having worked with some very talented people of all backgrounds, I can tell you that to everyone I have ever known, race is NEVER an issue unless the person brings it up themselves and begins to play the victim. However, I have NEVER known any talented person who has done this... in fact, they would refuse it if the possibility existed to gain from the claim because it is not dignified or honorable.
Don't try to cure the disease by shooting the patient, please!
I seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old, I seek the things they sought.
I'm Spanish and I've always lived in Spain. Almost all the Spanish population is of the same race as me (we call it white, but you may disagree), so I've never experienced racism first hand. However, after reading some of the comments posted by black people, I'd like to give my opinion.
People tend to feel more comfortable with similar people; that's human nature. In greater or lesser degree, that happens to everybody: white people, black people, men, women, geeks. Maybe you'd call that racism, sexism or classism, but I don't think that one race, sex or class is more guilty of it than others. As I said, it's human nature.
Maybe it's unfair, but there's no use in getting frustrated about it. You have to accept it, just as you accept that people that is more articulate, more physically attractive or more sympathetic than you have more probabilities to be successful, even if you are more competent than them.
Perhaps as society evolves and people become more rational this problem will lose importance. Meanwhile, we'll have to cope with it.
The other thing I have to do is defend MS on the allegations themselves. From everything I have heard from Microsofties, this would never happen. Their supposed to be a "shove it down your throat" kind of pc company. One where being PC is emphasized so much you get sick of it.
Individual cases here may in fact be valid, but never on this scale. It is this type of unabashed greed that tarnishes legitimate lawsuits that /should/ be heard.
I don't know all the details about these racist claims against Microsoft, but it sounds to me that these individuals are taking advantage of the big Cash Cow that Microsoft is. How many companies get sued for 5 Billion in racist claims by so few people? How many companies could afford 5 billion? What a minute, maybe there is a link here? Why not sue if there is a chance to get money from a company that could afford it? Or maybe at least settle out of court for cash to spare a big company like Microsoft from public ridicule and embarrassment on this issue. It seems to me (by the amount of money that these people are suing for) that this may be opportunism at its worst.
Did any of you see the Kubrick film FULL METAL JACKET
From the movie...
"There is no racial bigotry here! I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers. Here you are all equally worthless!"
----------
No army can withstand the strength of an idea whose time has come.
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No army can withstand the strength of an idea whose time has come.
- Victor Hugo
It only seems that way because everyone is white. Please. This business looks like a 1950s lunch counter in Alabama. White progrmmers collect their stock options, Black and Hispanic workers employed by sham non-union companies serve the coffee and clean up the trash.
I think he means racism, as he said. Unless racism means something different in the States - everywhere else it can apply to anti-white as much as anti-black predjudice.
And yes, you`re likely to have the edge physically if you are black. Or aren`t you allowed to say that anymore?
Of course its excessive. They`ve just looked at the maths of black/white employees, looked at other lawsuits and decided that on balance they`ll make more money suing that not suing. It really is that simple.
You`re going to see a lot more of these pointless lawsuits (racism/personal injury/infringement of privacy, and other cases where no `crime` by any sensible definition has occured) until there are either less lawyers or more sensible laws.
"What sense would it make to discriminate, or otherwise piss off anyone? "
You dont need sense to be a racist. To quote from some 70`s UK graffiti "I have half a mind to join the National Front" followed by "thats all you need".
Yeah, I think the 'coaches' example was a bad one to pick :) I should have selected a better one.
---
Rob Flynn
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Rob Flynn
Pidgin
Very valid points, my friend.
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Rob Flynn
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Rob Flynn
Pidgin
Very true. Discrimination is discrimination and, by definition, covers any direction of discrimination. The 'reverse descrmination' term has always bugged me as well.
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Rob Flynn
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Rob Flynn
Pidgin
Once again, I never pointed any fingers. I was merely stating some things that I personal have read/heard about.
I've been in places where racism is a very real and very scary thing. I know what it is like and to be honest with you, I've felt the wrath of it.
The bla-a-a-a-cks are wrong!
It's comments like these that make me not want to voice an opinion of any sort or join any discussions.
Have a good day.
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Rob Flynn
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Rob Flynn
Pidgin
Actually I don't know that for a fact nor does any of us know for a fact the "racism" issue with the MS case we've just read about. I was merely stating my views on the matter.
---
Rob Flynn
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Rob Flynn
Pidgin
yare yare... live by the sword, die by the sword.
Griffis
Griffis
And the $5B will just go to *white* rich a$$ lawyers... =) And not like racism would just go away. I don't see any point in the lawsuit.
My office is predominantly white but we have Blacks, Asians, and people from other parts of the world. No racism that I ever observe.
In fact, working in the tech industry has really added culture to my life. I love talking to one of my Asian friends about all the differences between US and Japan. It's very interesting to me.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
First, let me be frank: I don't agree with suing for $5billion. Nor do I agree with using the small percentage of MSFT minority workers as leverage. What I DO agree with is the basis behind their argument, which is the EXACT same attitude being reinforced on this board.
Which is what exactly?
So far, all this lawsuit has suggested is:
1> Microsoft has treated these employees shabbily due to their race
2> Because of the ethnic makeup of the company, that is proof that the company is racist
So far, since there's no trial or anything, it's hard to gague on the validity on point #1. But point #2 is ridiculous. You even say later in your post about the lack of opportunities to get a decent education, yet it's Microsoft's fault that they don't hire enough blacks?
Everywhere I've worked (UNIX Systems Admin/Engineering) I've been seen as a remarkably compentent, skilled worker....until I meet the customer face-to-face. Then, suddenly, my decisions are questioned more, people go over my head to ask about things that are my responsibility.
This can be due to various reasons. Your voice. Your race. Your weight. Your age. And or all of the above may apply.
And this sort of thing happens to other people... white people too.
Even back to college (University of Michigan), I was faced every day with fellow students who were SO SURE that they were smarter than me, and professors who didn't think that I deserved to be here, assuming that I was only here because of Affirmative Action (I've got that in the workplace as well).
That's the fault of affirmative action programs which say "Well, since 30% of the makeup of michigan is black, so must the underclass be 30% black, and if we can't find 30% of X students who are qualified & Black, we'll lower the standards to 'make' them qualified." As long as such programs exist, and as long as lawsuits continue which claim racist on the basis of representation or lackof, vs. any real, coherent racism on the part of the employer/school/etc.
Let's set the record straight: My racial group does not choose to be less educated...we simply don't always have access to the same resources growing up as whites.
The only comment I can make about this statement is that parents, black or white, need to get more involved in the education of their children.
That can't possibly be understood by someone who's never attended public school in a major city (I'm from Detroit).I took freshman EECS with 3 hundred white guys that had been taking C classes since the 9th grade, and the only exposure I'd had to any form of high-level programming was self-taught. Poor K-12 education == Poor SAT/ACT != quality higher education. This uneven playing field is the reason for the small numbers of us in the tech industry.
And that's proof of a problem at the school levels preceding college. That's not proof of racism on the part of Colleges or Businesses who supposedly are employing racist admission/hiring policies.
To sum up, stop with the "Blacks are always complaining...why don't they just get jobs...they have as much access to higher education as we do" crap. Find a black man on your job site, and ask him where he's from, and what high school he attended. I guarantee he's either got parents as priviliged as most of yours, or he worked his ASS off to get to where he is now.
Funny you mention this, but ignore this:
It seems the general consensus among white, male tech workers is that they belong in the industry. If they are up for a promotion against an equally skilled minority, of COURSE they should get the promotion, because they're automatically more skilled. Because the majority of tech managers are ALSO white, this attitude is perpetuated.
Do you think that those white workers DIDN'T work their asses off as well? You're generalizing about them while complaining about others generalizing about your presumed non-skills.
I think these guys must have been contractors and confused. At MS you are discriminated against based on the color of your ID badge, not the color of your skin. -Brian
"Faith strikes me as intellectual laziness." -Robert A. Heinlen
i knew a white boy in the usaf in okc back in the late '70's who got out and applied for the okc fire department. he got 100% on the screening test, the fire dept hr guy told him they were really short of people and if he could he would hire him on the spot.
unfortunately the okc fire department was under a court order to hire more blacks and thus could not hire whites until the blacks reached a certain percentage of the dept.
the hr guy said of the few blacks that applied very few of those could even reach the minimum 'adjusted for minorities' score decreed by the judge so the department was desperately short of manpower yet could not meet the targets of the court order to hire more blacks and could not hire any whites at all until it did!
i believe affirmative action was created by diabolical white racists so everyone would question any black's qualifications in any field under the guise of 'helping' them.
some posts on this topic have alluded to asians and orientals hating and fearing blacks, yet look at the news and tv coverage of crime and antisocial activity in our culture, how often is the millionaire celebrity athlete or entertainer arrested again this week black?
how often is the newspaper police sketch of a violent wanted offender depicting a black man?
here in la the mexicans give them a good run for the money, but it seems everytime the evening tv news comes on there are handcuffed black men being loaded into police cars and ambulances, fresh blood stains on the pavement, why IS that...?
"...can you imagine a BEOWULF CLUSTER of these? That'd be some serious power!"
*When you think of a racist what is the first image that comes to mind?*
louis farrakahan, jesse jackson, al sharpton, oj simpson, elijah muhammed, idi amin, kwame nkrumah, robert mugabe, maxine waters, wanda coleman, winnie mandela and the 'mandela futboll club' and every negroe that couldn't vote properly in florida and blamed white racists for making the ballot too 'complicated'...
"...can you imagine a BEOWULF CLUSTER of these? That'd be some serious power!"
I've been asked this in a tech interview and I'm white. Hell, it's on most the applications I've ever filled out for non-tech jobs.
Had to add Arron Brooks to the List... Sorry, I am kind of stoked about the Saints, and it adds to your point.
I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
It's not MS's fault that in this country, blacks choose to educate themselves much less than other ethnic groups.
I would really like to know how you discovered this mass choice by blacks in this country to be ignorant.
I personally know many blacks who work extremely hard to educate themselves in spite of a horrendous lack of support & resources from the community around them, and many of them are much more intelligent than a lot of whites that I have known who have come up in better surroundings.
The reason? They want it, and it isn't given to them as easily as it is to many whites, who often end up taking the oppurtunities presented to them for granted.
Next time you're looking in the mirror, ask yourself about the face of subtle racism.
But those things happen further in, and get locked up into the nondisclosure bit of the settlement, so only the absurd figure gets to the press.
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
"Biggest" may be exactly the problem.
You see, there's no obligation to prove that Microsoft has a problem with institutionalized racism. Heck, it can be minority-owned. It doesn't matter.
The company is liable if one manager engages in preferential hiring/promotion. In fact, the company is liable if one employee creates a "hostile work environment." A wronged employee doesn't even have to complain, if a "reasonable person" would consider the behavior hostile... go directly to court, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
All the policies and whatnot do is reduce the amount of punitive damages the jury should award... a company with good policy and managerial training that had one bad apple on the payroll shouldn't be "fined" as much as a company with a poor-or-nonexistent policy, no managerial training, etc. Microsoft being, shall we say, a bit on the large side, has a pretty good chance of having a few bad apples.
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
"After ten years of working in sales, I began to wonder why I was constantly being overlooked for promotions, and why people who were junior and less qualified were getting promoted and I was still stuck in this rut."
Now, the guy sounded very measured, and very smart and articulate. Incidentally, I believe he was in a regional sales office back east. Is it possible that the sales boss was a racist? You bet. Is it M$'s fault? Don't know, not for me to decide. I should think it depends on whether M$ knew that this particular manager was a racist and failed to address it.
The guy also said that it took him a long time to decide to participate in the suit, a lot of soul-searching, before he arrived at the conclusion that he had indeed been discriminated against.- -----------------
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I bent my wookie
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I bent my wookie
Get real.- --------------
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I bent my wookie
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I bent my wookie
Indeed, race is a social construct. For example, say you (who is white, or whatever) need a kidney transplant, and there's a white guy and a black guy who are potential donors. It's completely likely that you could have a tissue type match with the black guy and not the white guy. If there were any differences at all, you'd think that you'd match with any white person over a black person, but it just ain't so. Ergo, race is not a biological thing, but a human perception thing.- ---------------
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I bent my wookie
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I bent my wookie
I've found that once people get into a conversation with me and get to know me that it is no longer an issue.
I doubt if there is any way that people can be conditioned to not pre-judge others based on appearance. Though most are terrified to admit it, it's coded into our ROM to be prejudiced, and so we should just deal with the hand we're dealt and knock off the lawsuits already.
Perhaps I should sue companies who haven't hired me based on my "lack of experience" (translated as "looks young") after sounding very interested in me on the phone...
My poetry site welcomes the unusual.
Here's a government estimate for 1999. I don't think a significant portion of the 2K census has been released yet. http://www.census.gov/population/estimates/state/r ank/black.txt
3.5% for the state, or 36th out of 51 "states"... Probably higher for urban Seattle.
I don't think these are the relevant numbers , though. I'm quite sure MS is one of those companies that isn't drafting from the local pool in great numbers. A more relevenat stat would be the percentage of blacks in the I/T industy as a whole.
if an interviewer asks you your marital status in an interview tell him/her to suck it, it has no basis for why you're there, and is illegal to ask/consider.
:)
Yes, I'm aware of that, but it still happens. Besides, I was speaking of promotions of current employees. In that case the manager is likely to know at least the simple details of his underlings lives (such as wether or not they're married). Normally they wouldn't say anything about that affecting their decisions but it does. When I was 18 I was billing at $90/hour for Unix work and $60/hour for standard tech work. I was the only one in our shop of 4 or 5 that could do Unix consulting yet I was paid $6.50/h while the rest of the shop got around $9.25/h. When I asked for a raise I was told that I didn't need the money, I wasn't married and didn't have a family, and besides, I was 18 (the same age as their son). Still illegal but it happens.
Needless to say I didn't stick around that shop too long after that.
-Zane
This sig is worse than my last.
Despite it's appearance, this comment is very serious and not flame bait. I doubt that those blacks are any more discriminated against than anyone else in MS. I see more racism against whites than anyone else anymore. Yes, blacks have a rough past. Yes, blacks are still sometimes victims of racism. I think that they're having a hard time at work, and racism is a convenient excuse. Perhaps they don't do it intentionally. Racism is drilled into our heads so much that it's easy to assume a lot of things are the result of racism. Once again, I do believe racism is a problem, but I do not think it's nearly the problem media/lawyers make it out to be. Oh yeah, I'm a young white male, the most discriminated against group in USA =)
Yes, but all of these factors are not microsoft's, or any emplyer's fault.
Obviously race enters into this; but I wonder if it isn't more than race. Women have this same exact experience, for example. People have a harder time reconciling their image of a propellerhead with their image of a woman, compared to a man.
I'm not trying to say it isn't racism or sexism - sure it is - but I wonder if it's some general mindset other than race/gender that is at the root of the "you couldn't be that smart" syndrome (YCBTSS, or "Yck, Beets"). I'm thinking, for example, of the chip on the shoulder thing that so many digi-types have (yes, I'm aware it's a generalization) - a lot of programmer/hacker/cracker types have something to prove, and there's the general feeling that if you have to get help then you're less worthy. It's worthwhile I think to compare that attitude to that of the FSF, which to me seems very feminist in politics - the whole notion of sharing and helping is strong.
Seriously, this is going to end up just like every other lawsuit out there today. They settle out of court for an undisclosed amount. The lawyers get an absolutely obscene cut of the settlement. End of story.
Problem is, it wont fix the problem. Racism IS a big problem in this industry. In 5 years in this field, I have known 2 blacks and one Hispanic who worked the same type of job as me. and I work in Phoenix, where something like HALF of the population is hispanic.
The only real solution? Applications and review forms that have one thing on them, a number. No name, no age, no sex, no race, nothing. I dont know what it must be like for minorities, but I have been severly discriminated against due to my age. I was literally ushered out of an interview once a couple years ago because "That's way too much money to be making at your age with no college, but your experience and credentials look fine, so don't take it personally. Just keep trying."
It sucked. Bad. I probably should have sued the shit out of them on the spot.
"See, we plan ahead! That way, we never have to do anything now."
In order to actually get that much, after lawyers fees et al, you have to sue for around $5 billion...
Some of you will read this and think I am flamebaiting, but I'm going to level some fair criticism at Slashdot. If I were a troll, I'd post as an AC. You'll notice I didn't do that.
This is another fine example of the submision process being broken. I submitted this story Monday evening when the news broke. It was dismissed early yesterday, the same day the lawsuit was filed and same day this story impacted on most news websites.
Taco, since you don't check stories anyway, why don't you rework the submission review process? Let those who moderate have a hand in the responsibilities, since you seem to have better things to do. At they very least, allow the submission queue to be viewable by all. I suspect there are many good stories that are being killed that your readers would like to see.
This makes sense. I thought that the "No Irish need apply" sign on their jobs page seemed old fashioned. I see these all over the place now. Where do I sign up? ---Lane
What's the point of moderating?!
As a white guy, fairly privileged (strong family, good schools), I find it a constant struggle to combat racism, even in my own attitudes. It's hard not to assume all sorts of awful things about people because of their race, until I get to know them personally. I try really hard, though.
I think the biggest problem I run into is simply the prevailing social order. I live in a midwestern town that is geographically divided -- whites live south of the tracks and blacks live north. It's really stark, and it's been this way for generations. There really are two societies . You go north, and everything is different -- language, schools, attitudes, cars, children, culture. It's hard not to get the impression that people really are different. I know that it's just a matter of history and inertia, but my goodness it's hard to overcome!
On another note, you don't have to be a minority to comment on racism, as Taco might have you believe. Anyone that tells you anything else is either seriously lacking in common sense, or is trying to take advantage of you. Sometimes I get tired of being a white male in this brave new PC (as in political...not personal) world, as I am constantly reminded of the boorish behavior of my gender+race, both past and present. Not to say that this isn't an issue that we need to be on guard for all of the time, but the manner in which we go about safeguarding our society is both guilt-inducing and frustrating for the majority (as Taco has unwittingly indicated). Sometimes I wish that they (whatever minority has been so terribly wronged today) would just leave me and my sense of self in peace. At least then I would be able to start telling myself that I don't have to feel guilty for being white.
Of course, as you can probably tell, this post is made partly out of anger/frustration and partly out of common sense. Whether or not you can sort it out is most likely indicative of your ability to really read what I'm saying, or just make another rash judgement about me to heap on the pile. It's okay if you want to...I'm white. I can take it.
int break_spirit()
{
crush_nutz(left_nut,right_nut);
return(1);
};
--Life may have no meaning, or, even worse, it may have a meaning of which you disapprove.
Here is a true statistic:
20% of the people listed in the last census listed themselves as African-American.
40% of new AIDS patients are African American.
Now here is a misleading conclusion:
Therefore, the AIDS virus is rascist.
Yes, this is an absurd conclusion, but this is basically the main crux of the argument for the laywers defening the 5 minorities. What a bunch of crock. Of course, you can't counter that statement because a counter would basically say "Well, maybe there white people in Microsoft happen to be more competent and THAT's why they were promoted". Of course, this statement is very un-politically correct and the makers of the statement would be considered "rascists"
Ironically enough, I find more instances of rascism towards whites today than I do towards blacks. I don't know, rascists statements towards whites seem more tolerated than ones towards blacks (have you seen a WB sitcom lately?).
With lawsuits like this, it will be difficult for racial tolerance to improve
PS. If someone feels like flaming me for these "racial" statements, I may remind the person that I'm hispanic and not white.
>and when I got there, they looked up at me,
;-)). It has nothing to do with racism.
:-) Black leather jacket, boots and blak long hair. Purple nails and so on... we sure had our doubts... could these guys possibly be any good hackers?
>and went right back to what they were doing
Is it hard t ounderstand?
You are different, ofcourse they dont expected someone diferent. They would have done the same if you were a beautifull woman (just a little more hope in their eys
I can tell you a storry from a CS course I took.
We vere doing a project, three "normal" people that knew eachother from before and two new guys.
One guy with a farmboy accent we hardly understod and the other guy belonged in the group of people you are supposed to be afraid of
But ofcourse we were proven wrong, both were way better then the three of us.
You would probably have said I am a racist if they had benn black but now they were as white as anyone but i guess I am wrong anywa.
Tim
Question authorities
It seems that the same is not true (i think) for Asians and Indians. So that would probably explain why there seems to be more indian and asians techs as a percentage of middle class individuals than even whites.
However, for a black student in the inner-city (or probably any poor american student in a rough neighborhood) being labeled a geek (rhymes with weak) can get you hurt. So if there is some other label that you can assume (jock, tough guy, church kid, etc.) it makes sense to do so.
I grew up in a middle-class/upper-middle class home. Between 8th and 9th grades we moved to a different city and I went from a majority white school (actually the percentages were probably representative of america as a whole) to a majority black school even though my new school was part of a magnet program I was far more ostracized and far more of an outsider than I had ever been at my previous school. In retrospect, I can see that my Jr. High friends were all geeks and my Sr. High didn't have enough geeks to fill a mid-sized sedan.
I am not apologizing for blacks. But given choices like those. How many kids are going to explore their technical leanings? Or would the better choice be to try REAL hard to be "normal"?
Most geeks I know know, technical or otherwise tried the normal thing but it just didn't work for them. The thing was though, there was no serious downside to choosing to be different. Not really. However, most poor kids (i mean real poor) don't feel that they can afford to make that choice.
Just my $.02.
In case noone else has been reading the posts on slashdot, the tech industry is rife with racism. Against blacks, asians, and indians just to name a few. As a 32year old systems integrator (who fell in love with computers playing net trek at FIU at the ripe age of 11), I have seen more than my share of people that believe that believe that white skin is a prerequisite for technical skill AND fair pay. That being said, $5,000,000,000 is so totally ridiculous as to be obscene. I have to believe that it is just a negotiation starting point. Isn't bill so poor now that 5 billion would be 10% of his net worth?
So that big businesses could hire huge, expensive, unstoppable armies of lawyers, knowing that the risk of losing will stop any lawsuit, frivolous or not.
That works to 115 days, anyway. A little more than a business quarter.
Seen a lot of black quarterbacks lately? Football teams are fond of using big black men for grunt labor and to take the heavy hits; They're owned by OBC (Old Boys' Club... I like saying it OBC, like it's a rap gang or some shit) and there is a pervasive odor of racism there. Slavers had no compunctions about using blacks to pick cotton, and football teams have no compunctions about using blacks to knock people over. Of course, they also give them millions of dollars.
As for basketball, there are two factors which come into play. One, persons of African descent have a greater height range without tending toward a heavy frame than the rest of us tend to. Two, basketball is a greater part of the African-american culture than it is part of the "white" culture. White people play everything, but basketball is frequently looked upon as a "black" sport. You can see the influence it has on black culture by listening to any five rap albums; I can just about guarantee that they will contain a noticable number of basketball references. Go listen to some "white" music and see what sports are referenced; I personally am aware of more baseball references.
Anyway, blacks are discriminated against pretty much everywhere, but I'm not qualified to determine whether or not microsoft is one of those places. I can tell you they are frequently discriminated against in sports.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Cryptnotic
My other first post is car post.
How many days would it take Mr. Gates to Earn $5,000,000,000?
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I agree. Percentages are decieving. M$ is 20% minorities, but M$ has only 2.6% blacks. Basically, they feel the Microsofties are using targeted racism, rather than being unfair to all minorities. Based on the basic definition of racism (dislike of someone because they are not your race), they may have trouble with this lawsuit. Another problem they may have a problem with is how much the plantiffs are asking for. Regardless of how much money M$ is worth, $5 billion is a lot of cash. The jury may feel that the plantiffs are just greedy and opportunistic, which may lead them to vote in favor of M$ just because the disagree with the damages sought, whether or not M$ is actually guilty. I definitely see a potential for this to backfire.
BigCat79
BigCat79
"The dead have risen and are voting Republican!" --Bart Simpson
Now, something that would show that these people have some morals would be if, (assuming they won anywhere near such a ridiculous amount), they were to take out whatever money they actually lost, pay the lawyers, and then give the rest to charity. That way, they've been dealt with fairly, microsoft has been punished, and some good has been done as well. Unfortunately, you rarely (if ever) hear of something like this, because, as a general rule, people are greedy.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
I'm dumbfounded by the tenor of most of the contributions here. People are rubbishing the case before they've heard any of the evidence. Please God don't let these people ever sit on a jury. Time and time again the most deliberate, pernicious, vicious racism has been overwhelmingly proved at major companies with lots and lots of fine sounding policies, and any number of 'of course we're not racists' employees protesting at the ideological purity of their company. As yet, we simply don't know the facts to make a judgement either way, but considering the way MS have treated their 'temporary' workers and some rather less favourable comments we've had from both ex and current employees of Redmond over the years, I wouldn't be overly surprised if there was a case to answer.
Perhaps you didn't get the job because the other guy was married and had kids and you were single so he needed the job more
unless you're implying that he came off better in the interview because he wanted the job more, what you just described is also completely illegal. hiring based on marital status? if an interviewer asks you your marital status in an interview tell him/her to suck it, it has no basis for why you're there, and is illegal to ask/consider.
My thoughts exactly..
The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.
That is patently untrue. I have seen stories posted by both Brits AND Canadians.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
"are underrepresented in higher income occupations is very serious"
I guess you haven't watched professional Baseball, Basketball, Football, MTV, or just about anything else, anywhere.
No, but you can point to a NFL linebacker and say, "Look, black people are well represented in high-income jobs."
And by MTV I didn't mean guys filling tapes, I meant all the artists shown and big name MTV people, like VJ's and such.
Hi. I don't understand the American legal system when it comes to suing people and companies. It seems like you can sue for any amount of money that you like!
Hi. I'm a person from a non-US country desperate to get karma by exploiting the 'I'm from a different country/you americans are so wacky' meme!
Why, here 5 employees are suing for $5 Billion - Isn't this completely over the top? $50,000 each would be more like it. Doesn't it mean that big companies are in total fear of the very slightest slip up, and are unlikely to take risks and innovate when it could mean that they are likely to lose Billions if it even goes slightly wrong.
I have no understanding of your legal system, and thus don't know that absurdly large settlements are almost never upheld and that asking for them is the only way to be assured an eventual resonable settlement in appeal. Also, I don't realize that punitive damages must actually hurt the company to be punitive.
Also, I really really find it hard to believe that a company in this day and age would be racist. They are driven by money, and finding the best employee for the job is the absolute bottom line in any company these days.
Companies aren't racist. People are racist. Although market pressures and the employement crunch have forced some companies with institutionalized bigotry to hire minorities, this doesn't change the fact that individual employees can and often are insensitive and hostile to minorities.
That being said, it is still the companies' responsibility to monitor and prevent the harrassment of and by their employees.
According to the lawyers, you're right:
"The lawyers cite statistics showing that just 2.6 percent of Microsoft's approximately 22,000 employees, and just 1.6 percent of its 5,155 managers, are black. "The numbers illustrate that Microsoft is guilty of some of the most egregious discrimination in corporate America," Hoffler said. "
But using statistics to show discrimination has another name: quotas. I wonder if anyone has considered that maybe white programmers outnumber black programmers.
Yes, Chuck D is smart as hell. Why did you feel you had to point that out, Taco? Would you have appended the same phrase to a sentence about Gates, or some other pasty white boy techie?
I agree, at least, in Canada (well, Calgary) the number of technical workers that are white just so happen to outnumber the ones that are black 20 to 1. When I hire, I hire on skill not color (and the ability to speak clear and fluent English.).
For all the lan parties, demo parties, and conferences that I've been to over the last 10 years, I would say 90% of the attendants were always white males. Even the European demo parties I've been to with over 3000 people attending, still 90% white males. Even the couple Comdex's I've been too have been very close.
I don't think that the above is a racist comment but a comment based on my personal observations.
ideal; model tiny; codeseg; org 100h; start: cli; hlt; ret; ENDS; END start
care to back that up those statistics with case studies? Can you find a "less qualified" minority that was admitted to your school so that he/she can verify your fantastic tale
No, although I would happily do so if I could. The problem is that there are no grades/demographics published by my school. I am speaking entirely from personal experience and first person discussion among fellow students. For instance, one of my friends at school is a hispanic man *name withheld because a lot of people from my school read slashdot*, who scored well in his rural high school (fouth in his class of about 500 students), but failed out of my school after two semesters. This kind of information isn't published anywhere, so I can't show you that he was underqualified coming in (1200 SAT compared to the 1510 Median) or that he received more financial aid than white students from the same financial background, but I can promise you both are the case.
PS if your school is 75% White and 75% male, then you must be a what? White male? You must like it that way seeing as how unwilling you are to let the school even try to change that statistic...
First off, take a stat class, the chances of me being white male, based on those two conditions, are about 50%, substantial, but that doesn't mean i must be a white male. Secondly, I do enjoy it, but I would NOT mind if the school changed by admitting QUALIFIED minorities to equal out the distribution.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
The yellow tide is going to disenfranchise white college kids, boohoo.
No. It wont. The 'yellow tide' is going to merely shift the location of the white college kids. The white students who legitimately deserve scholarships and acceptance to the middle class, state universities (we'll use UC's here, since that was the base school mentioned in the thread, being UCLA, UC Berkeley, UC Irvine), will be denied the scholarships or rejected altogether, and forced to go to lesser schools (the analogy would be the cal-state system, CSU Northridge, Fullerton, etc) which admit pretty much anyone. Meanwhile, the truly intelligent white college students will still be attending the schools that any truly intelligent students can get into, the private institutions that admit solely on academic achievements, not on race. The one downside is the SUBSTANTIAL amount of financial aid available to minorities that isn't available to whites. IE: A hispanic valedictorian was given a full ride to my school, although his GPA, SAT, courseload, and extracurricular activities pale in comparison to mine. I was given merely $10k/year of 'assistance', much of which is comprised of loans.
I guess you don't know about the quotas/caps at some schools which disallow entrance of more hordes of asians because the schools gotta give those poor white kids (TM) a fighting chance.
These, if they exist, and I've yet to hear of a school that actually used a system like this, are far less numerous than the schools still practicing de facto affirmative action.
You really have no idea how it feels to be hated/fear persecution simply for the color of your skin do you, because if you did you'd never write the pap you did
I happen to, for the most part, agree with him. And just for the record, I spend most of my weekends in North Pasadena, Ca. which, for those of you who dont have the priviledge of living in california, is 99% minority (I went to the supermarket last night to buy some beer, there were exactly two other white people in the store with me. One was my girlfriend, one her roommate.)I know better than most what its like to be discriminated based on the color of one's skin, and I'd bet that you, despite your ramblings, have never been truly discriminated against. When was the last time you got your ass kicked in a parking lot for 'parking in the wrong spot' ?
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
Any minority that receives DOLLAR ONE from any minority scholarship had to be admitted first, which makes them JUST as qualified (if not more so) than you
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. what planet have you been living on? Affirmative action extends far beyond financial aid, all the way to the admissions office. My school, although specifically against affirmative action, does lower its standards for minorities in an attempt to erase the 75% white, 75% male ethnic and gender divide, and what keeps happening, year after year, is the minorities they admit with the lower standards fail out, leaving the upper classes 75% white, 75% male. Year in, and year out.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
Applying Occam's razor, I find it much more likely that this guy is either incompetent, obnoxious, or doesn't bathe than that there's institutionalized racism within Microsoft. I've worked in lots of high-tech areas, and anyone dumb enough to bypass a good employee just because of his/her race wouldn't last long. Good people are so difficult to find that companies can't afford to waste them.
Yeah, and cops want murders, rapes, and robbery to keep happening, because they'd be out of a job if they ended it.
And Republicans want welfare cheats to keep cheating so they can write inspiring speaches to get Rush's "dittoheads" to vote for them.
Envronmentalists want endangered species to become extinct so they can keep getting donations and they are positively giddy over the possibility of global-warming.
Slashdot readers wants our government to pass stupid anti-privacy and anti-encryption laws so we have something to get worked up over.
Linux needs Microsoft to be the big bad company to fight against.
Finally, Anonymous Cowards need controversial /. threads without a complicated technical component so they can continue to spout off inane arguments that don't require them to RTFM.
Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
A. Microsoft's operating systems suck (check any /. thread which even remotely compares Linux to Windows for proof -- this statment can be taken as a TRUTH ;)
B. They have billions of dollars.
C. The ability and desire to hire the best and brightest programmers is a function of money.
D. If C and B then: they have the best and brightest programmers.
E. The best and brightest programmers can create an OS that doesn't suck.
F. If A and B and C and E then not D; i.e. Microsoft doesn't have the best and brightest and the fact that they don't have the best and brightest is not a function of money.
G. If F and C: Microsoft hires on a criteria other than "best and brightest" (i.e. they hire the not best and not brightest.)
H. not E: the not best and not brightest programmers can make an OS that sucks.
Q.E.D: Ok, by this point I'm kinda lost, I think I've proven that Microsoft is a racist company, but don't beat me up too much, its been many, many years since my logic class... :)
Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
Speaking of color discrimination and racism, what's with the "blue" screen of death?
In response to the this thread, a problem I have with a lot of statistics is the "double counting" to prove discrimination and gain government rememdies: if this huge percentage of black males I keep hearing about is going to jail, then I wouldn't expect them to wind up in high tech. There may be unfairness and racism involved early in the process, but you can hardly expect employers to ignore their resumes. And the same goes for high school graduation, etc. etc. So, when calculating what the percentages should be, you've got to subtract out subcategories.
Also, I have been waiting for years to use this little gem I once thought up. When Jesse Jackson gets involved, he should feel free to borrow this:
"You say "Mic-ro-soft', but ah see 'Jim Crow-soft'"
For two years I was in a band made up of 1 Filipino, 1 Puerto Rican, 1 Black, and a couple white guys. I was, by far, the oldest and they referred to me as father time. I thought the title was pretty cool but maybe I should have thought of it as age discrimination and sued them for all they had. Oh, wait, they didn't have any $. All we had was a good time.
Perhaps, rather than suing the company for money, they should try and force them to institute some program to fight racism©
--
Cognosco: To examine, enquire, learn
Cognosco: To examine, enquire, learn
http://cognosco©datablocks©net
Well, I posted this 2 days ago actually, so the person credited for posting it must have beaten me...but there was a backlog of like 250 stories for the slashdot people to go through, so get over it!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I wonder in how many cases of these racial law suits, that people are simply overlooking the fact that, regardless of color/sex, you simply weren't as qualified as someone else?
I'm personally a little tired of it all....
there are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots
Not because Microsoft wouldnt be dumb enough to do it, but because if all the tech firms decide to hire people only from one race, they would simply lose out in the long run.
:). But the point is, if a person is technically sound, then most times he wouldnt be put down. But its a different story in the management circles. And I have had my share of dumbos who get their work done by other geeks and take credit.
However, there might have been some white supremacist jerks in any company, and I have met a few in my time, but they can do indeterminable damage to careers and company profiles. such as what might have happened here. As for the plaintiffs mentioned, I would have expected them to take the matter to the topmost level within their company, and I really dont understand their agenda in bringing it up now. Maybe they just wanna make money, maybe they are seeking justice, but honestly, it doesnt matter anymore.
If you are being put down, then stand up and fight. Dont quit your job, fight and if possible, take the whole thing to court while you are working there. It would be appreciated then. Then quit and join Sun or whatever. But if you would rather do nothing about it then, and decide to bring it up years later, then I have to question their intentions.
I believe all races are equal. And the jobs should go to people who deserve them. I have met a couple of brilliant black guys who are intelligent hackers and programmers in Redmond. And they loved working there. Not because they didnt know about Linux
Rapid Nirvana
I wonder why people such as this poster submit anonymously. However, he/she has a point.
Last I checked, slashdot as an organization is not a government agency that must follow all of the PC crap. It was started by americans and thus thats the way it is socially aligned. Nothing prevents others of different social groups to start their own site. If you don't like the fact they cover american holidays and such then stop coming to the damn URL. The real beauty of the Net is the ability to create your own site that is socially/politically aligned in whatever fashion you like.
The problem with today's world is that people complain about things that they go to see on there own accord. If you don't like something, than ignore it. If it is shoved into your face, then that appears to welcome a complaint. Otherwise, mind your own damn business and let the people who like it a certain way have there freedom to see it that way.
Microsoft is a large and bloated corporation that has many different arms. Not every industry is the same, and considering MS as whole in this case may be short sighted.
Personnaly, I worked for one of the first ASPs where almost half of the employees were from India. Granted that as time went by the ratio evened out more and more, but the fact was very noticable. I was rather happy to see a company take stock in a minority group as they did. I had co-workers/managers of almost every color I could think of and I never remember one instance of race being an issue. If there is racism in the software industry, than I must have been at one of the few software companies that appeared to be without it.
"Yes"
"That is correct!"
-Saturday Night Live
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__
Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
If I was making that much money, I wouldn't be complaining.
Not until you got your doctor bill. What most people don't realize is that being a professional athlete nearly destroys your body.
I worked breifly with Dave (Dan?) Dalby, a former guard for the Raiders. he was actually in good condition compared to his former co-workers. he could get dressed in the morning withou assistance because his knees weren't shot to hell. He could get up and stand in the mornings, where I remember watching 20/20 follow an old pro around and he had to crawl to the hallway with his hands to prop himself up to put his pants on.
Despite Dalby's great condition, he still had more doctor visits than you would dream of, and they were/are hella expensive.
Try making a few million a year for five years, then spend 3/4 of it on doctor bills in the following 10 (if you're frugal). See how much you have left, then wake up and be glad all you have to worry about is RCS and eye strain (for the amount of money you're getting).
While at it, why don't we sue MS for discrimination against the Open Source community?
They steal from everyone equally. They will take money from a white person just as easily as a black person.
Mas vale cholo, que mal acompañado.
The number of lawsuits has scared me to the point where I have become so PC it makes me seem cold and anti-social at times. This is because I don't want to know anyone I work with on a social level. "You have kids? How nice, now let me ask you about this project"
Maybe many of the employees on the defense fear the so-called minority. What if something they say comes across in a way they didn't mean it to? They're screwed. As a white male (in the so-called majority), I will lose EVERY court battle over racism or sexism simply because I am in the so-called majority (majority/minority is crap. It is all relative). I have been made out to be the enemy no matter where I came from, what school I went to, how hard ~~I~~ had to work. It doesn't matter because I'm white and I'm male. It doesn't matter that I'm "Irish-American" and was raised catholic (two groups hated and put down in the early 20th century). Could that be racism in the legal system?
Maybe many people are beginning to fear the so-called minority and detaching themselves. They don't say what made up the "harsh" working environment. Maybe it could have been no one wanted to hang out with them or socialize with them out of fear. If it was worse like, "you are in the minority so you should deliver mail all day" then the charges should be brought.
Ahhh, now here's a convoluted subject to argue about.
Blatant conscious racism is one thing. But what you're talking about is something that isn't necessarily conscious. I'm not appologizing for it. But I'm also saying we can't look down at those people as if they were wearing white hoods and all. Hell, I *know* I've done similar things to a very small extent one way or another at some point in the world, and I've *always* been consciously anti-racist, and a strident believer in the equality of man and all that stuff. But it's so subtle, and it's not a conscious thing... I imagine that it has slowly ebbed into peoples subcoscious minds and expectations by circumstance.
I mean, to give you an outrageous example that tries to give you a hint of what I'm saying: I've never seen a purple fire truck, so I don't expect to see a purple fire truck, and if I ever do I'll most certainly do a double take and have to look directly at the red flashing lights and big white text saying 'FIRE DEPARTMENT' before I go "huh! cool!". (Note that I'm absolutely logically certain the purple fire truck can fight fires just as well as a red one or a yellow one.)
So, I wouldn't equate what you've seen with out and out horrific racism, and I hope no-one ever holds something similar to what you've described against me. As I 'discover' it in myself I'm sure I'll try and consciously change, but until I do consciously notice it, well, I won't know about it! And I won't notice it until the day I see that purple fire truck. It's not as simple as thinking to myself "if I ever see something that I haven't seen regularly before, I won't be suprised". I am certain that if I saw or knew of some purple fire trucks, my sub-conscious mind would be a lot less suprised to come across one. It's just the way the human brain has been built to work.
Note that I wouldn't think of trying to minimize what you might have thought and felt when you saw someone do a double take. If I owned a purple fire truck and people kept giving me suprised faces, I could either be annoyed or proud. Either would be a valid and understandable, especially if I thought that 10% of the people weren't just suprised, but actually harbored a deep resentment of purple fire trucks... (I'm babbling now, aren't I?)
I'm just sure that it's not all black and white (no pun intended), and I don't know what to say to help either of us! Well, other than to say to you "chill out and have some pride" and to myself "I'll try a bit more to consciously correct what nature's evolution has hard-coded into my brain as to what to expect and not expect based upon what I've seen".
Do you remember the first time someone explained Quantum Mechanics to you? It was only after an extended period of time that I subconsciously begin to accept the idea, seeing as it was so discontinuous with everything I had experienced up to that time.
The company I currently work for (in a major multi-cultural northern North-American city) has (*roughly* - plus or minus 20 relative percentage points on each number) around 55% white caucasian males, 30% oriental males, 5% african american males, 8% oriental females, and 2% caucasian females (mostly from Eastern Europe). I can't think of a single african american female in engineering. The only North American raised caucasian females are in the support staff, except for one senior technical lead/manager.
And trust me, we'll hire *everyone* we can get our hands on who is qualified. Half of management (the founders of the Company, who still do the hiring) are minorities. Once upon a time we wanted to hire someone from the mid-east, and immigration said "You have to prove there isn't anyone in this country that you can find to do that", and we said "we'll hire *everyone* we can find who can do that job no matter where they live." And we did.
I guess they got wise to Microsoft's impending failure over the next decade and figured this is the only way they'd make their billions from MS.
a few $m per person, and $Bs to the lawyers. Participants in class actions almost never get the kind of payoff the lawyers get.
sulli
RTFJ.
Come on don't you know? to be on the Microsoft Staff you got to be Bill Gates' personal Monkey/Bitch. It matters on his mood.
Minorities are those who are not in power... hopefully Whites will stay in power And Jesse Jackson mainly is an idiot. (personally I think he wants to be Martin Luther King but he is too much a racist (against whites))
Is it racism? Not directly; I see lots of Asians in our business, and plenty of Indians (especially in the low-paying "mass production" software houses.) Do the rest of you get these "hire cheap programmers from New Delhi -- and they even speak English!" spams?
Engineering is a "white collar" profession, and as such, it sets a high entrance bar that must be leapt by "minorities". This bar is set by cultural standards, educational opportunities, and other factors beyond the scope of any racism inherent to engineering.
In other words, it isn't the computer industry that has a problem -- it's the society we live in that has yet to reach a semblence of equality.All about me
The same is true in the corporate world. For example, people are judged on the schools they went to. Prestigious schools are often easier to get into if a relative graduated from said school. In the past, few minorities were allowed to attend prestigious schools. One is also judged on ones clothing. As most of us know, this is an irrelevant and irrational requirement, but no one denies it exists. For those not immersed in the boring world of white man clothing, it is hard to make the transition to the pitiful ensembles that are acceptable corporate wear. And we will not even go to the racist rants against various forms of music. Lets just say that there is as much creativity in Jazz as in 18th century orchestral, but we know which get the bad rap.
It is easy to ask someone else to change their behavior to meet your needs. This is why racism exists and why it will persist.
When was the last time the NAACP lynched someone?
Ranessin
mod this guy up
if a black dude w/ cash tries to buy a team, and is unreasonably turned down, then you can call it racism. there merely being a lack of black owners does not constitute racism. the turning down/hindering of black owners does. this little blurb of yours is thus rather pointless. if you are going to post about the unfair racial bias against black managers, at least provide something to back up the claim (not saying there aren't incidents, wouldn't have a clue, never cared for any sport, save maybe soccer-and chess, if you call that a sport(i do):)
what hump?
That's just bullshit.
Everybody who is up for a promotion against anybody else feels they should get the promotion. That's human nature. You really want something, so you 'believe' you're the one who deserves it.
When you make sweeping generalizations like that, you come off sounding as ignorant as the racist fucks you are really pissed at.
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You are a fucking moron.
Bull! In an consulting job awhile back, I worked with a Japanese-American fellow who's parents spent WW2 in an Internment camp! Also, some of MY forebears were told "No Irish Need Apply!".
Actually, the numbers by themselves illustrate very little. I don't deny the possibility that Microsoft might indeed have discriminated against the plaintiffs (though I find it quite unlikely, and in any case it's for the courts to decide); however, the lawyers' heated rhetoric is unjustified. Data from the National Science Foundation shows that blacks make up only about 3 percent of all scientists and engineers, or 4 percent of computer and mathematical scientists. It also points out that "Black scientists and engineers have, on average, a lower level of educational attainment than scientists and engineers of other racial/ethnic groups". Of course, not *every* MS employee is an engineer, but the bottom line is that the percentages of MS employees who are black may not really be far out of line with the percentages in the pool of qualified candidates.
I've encountered this personally: In my prior position as a senior manager at a big dot-com, I, and the managers reporting to me, interviewed many hundreds of candidates. But although there was a lot of ethnic diversity in that group, I could count on one hand (and probably with fingers left over) the number of black candidates we saw.
The real issue, of course, is that for one reason or another black students are not choosing to enter technical fields at the same rate as other ethnicities -- not only whites, but Asians and Indians. To some extent that's undoubtedly a personal choice, but I'm sure it also has a lot to do with educational opportunities and cultural norms. I do believe this industry is generally pragmatic about its need to simply hire smart, hard-working people, and is thus rather accommodating about people regardless of ethnicity, sex, sexual preference, even disability; the one real exception is probably age. I'm expect most hiring managers would tell you they'd love to have more qualified black candidates -- or more qualified candidates, period! So the real question is, what can we do to address the root causes that turn blacks away from technical careers to begin with?
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
I would be interested in the opinions of blacks and members other underrepresented groups - ie, anyone other than a white, chinese, or indian male. I'd ask someone where I work but there's only one, and I don't feel like making him answer for his entire race.
- If it is shoved into your face, then that appears to welcome a complaint. Otherwise, mind your own damn business and let the people who like it a certain way have there freedom to see it that way.
This sounds more like a justification for Racism..-- Did I just say something? --
It's true you know. Anything done wrong by Microsoft is their fault. Even every tech company was outright rasist, (which in this case is irrelevant) and Microsoft were the only ones that had charges filed, though. That's the way the law works. You could argue that Microsoft cannot be held accountable for the actions of few managers. But there is no clause in the law that says "If you didn't know then forget it."
I don't like affirmative action. But I have to keep my mouth shut since I don't know a better way. If I come up with one, you'll hear from me. Or if I don't come up with anything, I'll just say, "This sucks!", or something.
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That's exactly the point. You should never assume something exsists or not without proof. That's exactly what my comment was trying to say. I cannot say weather these events took place or not. Just like I cannot say "I know they did not take place." Also, I never said they did take place. Hopefully, the original poster will think twice before saying something without proof one way or another.
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"That's quite an absurd amount of money."
Thats how it works, you ask for alot then you settle for less. The workers are hoping the bad publicity will cost more than whatever they want to settle agree to settle for.
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"I don't see anyone complaining about the rotten situations Mexicans must deal with when they're stereotyped to be low wage workers in almost all instances, or Arabics to be stereotyped as 7-11 workers or taxi drivers. "
So, if you dont see something it dosent exsist?
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What??!? I'll agree that some *individuals* have been deprived of what can be considered ideal educational conditions but to issue the blanket statement that entire ethnic groups have an excuse for not having made "intellectual progress" is just that- making excuses.
I work with several programmers and network engineers of all ethnicities and economic backgrounds. Most of these guys can school my ass any day of the week. They have a love for what they do and they've applied themselves harder than I have.
As for me, I went to a shitty, 95% white high school in a middle class neighborhood in northern New Jersey. When I graduated in 1993, I didn't even know what a DOS prompt *looked* like. It wasn't for lack of desire, we just had pretty much nothing but a few dozen Apple ][e machines. Since then, I was able to teach myself enough to be a system administrator for a prominent web company. How? I worked at it, despite the inferior education I received.
I'm curious to hear your interpretation of what constitutes a good excuse for a lack of intellectual progress.
Taking intelligent kids out of an environment where that's seen as such a negative trait that they're being insulted, assaulted and even murdered is not necessarily a bad thing. Giving them an environment where their desire to learn and succeed is fostered is a good thing. It's almost analogous to awarding merit-based academic scholarships.
Why is making haves out of have-nots bad?
Let's set the record straight: My racial group does not choose to be less educated...we simply don't always have access to the same resources growing up as whites. That can't possibly be understood by someone who's never attended public school in a major city (I'm from Detroit). I took freshman EECS with 3 hundred white guys that had been taking C classes since the 9th grade, and the only exposure I'd had to any form of high-level programming was self-taught. Poor K-12 education == Poor SAT/ACT != quality higher education. This uneven playing field is the reason for the small numbers of us in the tech industry...I guarantee he's either got parents as priviliged as most of yours, or he worked his ASS off to get to where he is now.
Ok. Working your ass off is necessarry for _everybody_ who wants to be succcessful. Those 300 white guys who had been taking C for four years had in an advantage in the class, maybe, but that doesn't mean much. Most of learning is done OUTSIDE of acadameia.
I'm white. I grew up in a crappy public school in a little rural town. Nobody in the town knew jack about computers, and there were no programming classes. We has one AP course as of when I graduated two years ago. I'm from a single-parent family, and that parent was disabled, so our income was shit. At peak, for the three of us (my mom, my sister, and myself) we made $12k annually. I had a poor k-12 education. But I worked my ass off to make sure that it didn't limit me. I had an interest in success and I overwhelmed my obstacles. Everybody's got to do it. Those kids in your EECS class got fed the training they needed, but that doesn't make them _more_ qualified than you or me who worked our ass off. In fact, without a little bit of trials and tribulations behind them, they're probably less qualified.
But what I really disagree with what you said is your supposition that:
Poor K-12 education == Poor SAT/ACT != quality higher education
That is simply not true. I had the shittiest education a white guy can get. But I flew out of high school with a 1540 SAT, and a year worth of work programming in a lab (with an hour-long commute) doing computational crystallography. I then made it into Caltech, moved to California (from New York). Incidentally, I soon realized that Caltech was not that great anyway, and dropped out and got a dot-com job while I support some artistic urges. So the way I see it, there's no necessary correlation between formal education, SAT scores, and quality higher education. You're simply wrong. What school you went to means nothing if you don't care about what you're trying to do, and you're not willing to work your ass off.
It's got nothing to do with being black or white or rich or poor or what education you were offered. It's about determination and being willing to work for what you want. For everyone. Get over it.
Alright, Bill. We all know you read /. now. Please stop posting your ridiculous claims. Although humorous as they might be, it could influence the children in an inappropriate manner.
Finder of the any key.
Anyone interested should read the book The Ten Things You Can't Say in America by Larry Elder.
Please note: if you can't entertain an idea without excepting it, do not read this book... it may make your blood boil.
-- bearclaw
--
+++ Out Of Cheese Error +++
+++ MELON MELON MELON +++
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
You may have, but yet you still don't get sarcasm very well do you? You are SMART S-M-R-T....I mean S-M-A-R-T!!
Check your facts. The average salary for a major league baseball player in 2000 was almost $1.9M. I don't think there is a real problem with these guys supporting themselves.
Nonperiodic Central Trajectory
That situation could exist, I suppose. But not in this case. There's no one out there who would say that there's a plentiful pool of skilled anyone in the technical fields. At a time when an MCSE straight out of a "boot camp" can almost distate his own employment terms, employers aren't turning people away.
Also, sometimes it is conceivably better for a company to be racist/sexist, from a purely economic point of view.
Then that's not racist. Racism is not hiring for no other reason than they're minority/women. There are other, non race/gender issues as the deciding factors here. Those people are not being hired because it's more expensive to do so. This is the same argument women's groups use. The simple fact is that women (as a conglomerate group) are more expensive to employ, generally because they work less hours due to family responsibilities. That's not being "sexist," that's protecting your bottom line. It's like hiring a team of women to move 300lb boxes by hand and wondering why they're less productive than a team of men. There are plenty of individual women out there who outshine men and rise to the top, that's the fallacy of averages.
Do you think it's "racist" that American companies move their production facilities to Asian countries and lay off white workers on America? Is Nike racist towards the white man because they hire almost entirely Filipinos to make their shoes? Of course not, they hire the people that will make their shoes for the least amount of money.
Why would a company handicap itself by deliberately excluding either a market sector or a skilled job pool? There's no logical reason. Individuals can be racist, companies cannot be. Isolated incidents will happen, but such rampant supposed racism at high levels in a bastion of capitalism like Microsoft is beyond the realm of plausability.
I'm a dev, and don't play sports. but from time to time i watch a game of football or basketball (mainly to feel somewhat masculene). It seems that the players will be >= 80% black, but certain roles are almost always white, quaterbacks, are almost always white, coachs seem to be nearly 95% white. owners are probably 100% white.
While your comments about black quarterbacks was true in the early 1990's, consider the quarterbacks in the playoffs.
Daunte Culpepper, Steve McNair, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb.
Of course, you're on the money about coaches.
That was a heck of a game, and I'm glad the Saints won.
Now all the Bills have to do is make Haslett, their old star linebacker, a coaching offer he can't refuse.
I agree with you there, that MSFT might actually be in the right. (Who would have thought I'd be defending them!)
And indeed the problem may be elsewhere, but I would venture to say it's not anything having to do with racism.
Why do you assume (you do know what that does, don't you? ;-) that African-Americans are the only people that are getting the bad educations? Has society programmed your minds to believing that everything bad that happens only happens to the African-American community?
I went to a school on the outskirts of Atlanta. I had very few good teachers (the one good one was a Puerto Rican teacher for spanish), and the computer courses were an absolute joke! The only "computer" course I had was for typewriting!
The real fact isn't that the government is failing the African-American community, but that they're failing children of every race.
If you sue them, I want in for damages to my community too!
I thought a Chinese athlete won the women's marathon in Sydney ...
Well there is a much lower percentage of whites in the NBA than the general population.
Does that mean there should be a $5billion class action lawsuit against the NBA?
NO... There are just more talented black basketball players than their general population represents.
The field of athletics is one of the few where whites are in the minority. But move from the playing field or the basketball court and the vast majority of head coaches, general managers and team owners are white. For that reason, I'd hardly see it as a disadvantage to be white in the field of sports.
You've heard this before, but "never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals bui
It seems to me that minorities in general, whether they be black, green, female or bisexual have a tendency to take their situation in life and limit themselves because they are not willing to put forth the effort to change it. If we would take the criticisms and feed off them, instead of acknowledging them as facts we could accomplish so much more than we ever dreamed. The only limits we have are the chains we forge and fasten around our own waists. Jobs in tech fields are hard because each worker often has specialized konwledge and experiences that the others know nothing about. In any company, the veterans are going to hang together. Try moderating talks between rivalling groups over which flavor to install on the server. Try being a newbie on a team with grizzled veterans. If we could just learn to reach out and trust other people objectively we might see that even blatent rejection and prejudice is energy. I am sorry that a small group of individuals is suing Microsoft not because Microsoft is undeserving but because the 7 people in question felt it necessary to follow through with their suit. It is such a privledge to work for a small company. I wish that they could see that they do nothing for their fight against prejudice. They should do everything they can to better their experience and education so that any company would be foolish to refuse them. Jumping into the muck does nothing for the clarity of your fight.
Slashdot discussions on social issues are not that different from social discussions in other arenas. What is different is the language used to describe social phenomena. On Slashdot, people have usually been trained in technical areas and tend toward technical language and well-reasoned arguments. This is reflected in the tones of posts that people make here.
;-)
In this thread, I have seen viewpoints from all parts of the spectrum. In these posts, there is little here to distinguish Slashdotters from the general population, except for three things: 1) a larger number of libertarian posts than one might expect from the general population; 2) more well-reasoned, logical justifications of pre-existing viewpoints than one might expect from the general population; and 3) more unconventional, radical viewpoints than one might expect from the general population.
There is something else as well; regardless of the opinions they hold, people who go to the effort to make these posts *care*. Slashdotters seem to be quite interested in social issues, even without formal training. And as we read more and more about issues that concern us, our knowledge in social areas will expand, and eventually it will catch up to our knowledge (and expertise) in technical areas, which can't be disputed...
Inevitably, we will touch on every major social issue that we face today. Disagreements on all issues seem to reduce to one of about six basic philosophical wars that have been waged since the beginning of time. This one, for instance, largely reduces to free will vs. determinism.
I enjoy the discussion of social issues on Slashdot (although they can be infuriating sometimes) and I hope to see more in the future. The discussions I see here are much more informed, open-minded, and to-the-point than those I see in most other arenas, and I think we can cut through a lot of the bullshit when it comes to social debate. Slashdotters, it's time to grow beyond your specialties...
- Firedog
Well you never met the guy, he used to tell me I was taking mind altering drugs whenever I drank a pepsi, if that isnt pompous self rightous then I dont know what is. Better example, is a person smoking crack a crackhead or an addict? you decide.
Racism is not fun. But what's worse than racism is people who cry "racism" when it's not the case. Since I couldn't get to the link on the story, I wasn't able to see if they have hard evidence, but I wouldn't even consider it a news story unless they did. Racism and sexism are terms which alienate and polarize, and need to be supported with more than hunches and rumours.
information is immaterial
I believe all races are different and better at some things than others.. i do not consider myself a racist.. but some of my views my be considered such....... However, you make a good point about drive...i graduated with a criminal justice degree from UGA... after that I ended up working in a grocery store for about 6 months making 5.70 an hours.. I finally got a job as a cop.. that did not work out so I went back to school to get another degree.. this one in CS(i actually started programming when I was in the 5th grade).... now I am making good money.....
I have heard some people working in KMART, Kroger ect.. they say they are making 9 bucks an hour and they are happy as can be... I am making more than double the avg American salary.. and its not enough.. I want to go back to school get a MS in business or maybe even a law degree...... I got off track.. but your argument deserves some thought..
Taxes and Lazy People are best friends.
Pluse there's Mike Grier, Geroges Laraque, Freddie Brathwaite, Kevin Weekes, Jarome Iginla, Peter Worrell, etc...
Its been my experience that in high tech there is too much pressure to succeed and too much money to be made to resort to petty bigotry. You simply can't afford to not hire and retain the best people, regardless of their skin colour.
Firstly, it's supposed to be punitive as well as compensative. The problem with big companies is it gets *very* hard to make them notice a slap on the wrist. Secondly, the article says it's class action with hundreds of plaintiffs, or at least potential plaintiffs, at which point they're only getting $millions each. That sort of level of payout seems to happen quite regularly in similar discrimination/unfair dismissal cases over that side o't pond.
This is my World Wide Web of Whatever
That's horseshit. In the IT industry, it's nearly impossible to find and keep good people. What sense would it make to discriminate, or otherwise piss off anyone?
On top of that, saying that just because blacks make up a small percentage of upper level employees doesn't mean anything. It's not MS's fault that in this country, blacks choose to educate themselves much less than other ethnic groups.
And, this lawsuit won't stand. The courts have repeatedly said that no company is required to maintain quotas. That would kill most businesses instantly.
I guess most people on slashdot are white. The racism in the US is there, but it has become subtle of late, so most whites do not see it. The other thing is that whites never experience it so they believe it does not exist. I have been complimented about how good my english is. What does this say about the complimenter? Yes I know they are trying to be nice, but that is the the most ass-backward compliment. Now I do not deal with people face-to-face when buying computer equipment as they (predominantly white males) assume I do not know what I am talking about. Now I deal over the phone and just meet face to face when collecting. `Over the phone nobody knows you are black). OT: When someone says they are colorblind, they usually try to paint everyone white (and does a bad job of it).
I can't believe nobody else has seen through this ploy!
MS has been battered recently, relatively speaking of course. DOJ thing still looming, W2K not doing as well as they hoped, announcements of Linux being used by Shell and Telia, etc... So now, at the moment when they are feeling most reviled, they convince (pay) these people to file a BS suit for a freakish amount of money. A suit which will surely be overturned and so MS risks essentially nothing, while gaining some public sympathy once again, ie "Oh poor MS, being picked on like that by those evil greedy people!"
It's brilliant!
The LEXX
(For the comedically crippled, the above WAS a joke!)
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
I'm the president of the computer club at my high school, and until this year we didn't have anyone other than about six white guys and one white girl. This year we've got six white guys, one white girl, and one black guy who claims he's a member but never shows up.
Aciel
aciel@speakeasy.net
You know a lawsuit is BS when they cite statistics, and then say that is proof that a company is guilty of discrimination. Thre is this small software company of 15-20 people, and none of their employees are black. That is not 2.6% (like microsoft) that is 0%. Therefore according to the lawyers who brought the suit against Microsoft, this is the greatest case of discrimination.
The truth is that Microsoft hires mostly Computer Scicence college grads, and there aren't that many black computer science students.
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
I can't wait until the people of this country actually find out who ends up paying for these BS lawsuits. THE CONSUMER So MS loses a $5 Billion case, so they raise the costs of windows $25. It is like when the auto industry gets sued because some moron can't drive and killed themself. Or when McDonalds gets sued because someone spilled coffee on herself. Don't even get me started on the cigarette lawsuits.
Lawyers are getting rich, and the hard working people of this country are getting stiffed. Lawyers like to create a sense of "lets stick it to the evil corporations", they don't mention the fact that the customer pays for it in the end.
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
...Is do those 2.6 % black statistics include microsoft's foriegn offices. I would imagine that their offices in the UK and other places would have lower percentages of blacks, as many european countries either never had slaves, or never imported slaves to their homeland. I think a lot of today's problems are cause by everyone hyphenating their fucken nationalities. If you were born in africa and moved here, then maybe i see a reason to call you that, but if you were born here then you're and american and only an american, IMHO. I don't go around calling my self a european american, becuase people would laugh ay my ass. actually I would be a german-italian-british-irish-few-other-things-I-do nt-know-american.... Little bit too lenghty I think eh?
Shit adds up at the bottom...
Whens the last time the KKK lynched someone? Hell when was the last time someone WAS lynched? It just doesnt happen anymore, and hasn't happened in quite a while. I would say however, that the people in the NAACP are causing just as much trouble as the people in the KKK, by making up imaginary boundaries and hurdles the black people are always having to overcome. If black people in this country can't get an education, Its their own damn fault. As a matter of fact, my school recently had several black-only scholarships left over at the end of the year, because not enough people signed up for it. Hence everyone that signed up for it got a scholarship. I would imagine the other scholarships have a similar problem, but I don't have any info on that.
Shit adds up at the bottom...
5 billion is too much no matter what company they are suing. Microsoft isnt nearly as rich as many people think. If you ask most people how much bill gates is worth, they'll say a couple hundred billion or some outlandish figure. Many people think that just because microsoft makes a couple hundred billion of revenue a year that they can afford to give out huge sums of money like this. Microsoft spends quite a large chunk of money annually, So they don't have hudreds of billions just laying around doing nothing. As for the lawsuit I think it's just complete bullshit. If you get discriminated against, work for a different company. Companies, especially in fast-paced fields like technology, can't afford to let qualified people go. If you can't get a job nowadays, you either arent qualified, or youre not looking hard enough.
Shit adds up at the bottom...
So, how did it feel? To live as the minority? There are people that live their entire lives feeling like that. And still it doesn't sound like you learned any compassion from the experience.
I am going to make it my mission to utterly destroy affirmitive action and make it law that no corporation may hire anyone on any basis other than qualifications relevant to the work being done.
Great principle, but it really doesn't matter what laws are the books. It only matters what laws are enforced. Did you do well in class? I am wondering if the distraction of your social surroundings affected your academic performance. Food for thought when looking at academic records of a white student from a white school and a black student from a white school. Maybe their social surroundings distracted them (like they did you from the sound of it) and they couldn't perform up to their potential. In that scenario if you and the black student where going for the same job, you would get it every time (since being white in a white school you were able to perform better and thus achieve better marks, which of course equals better qualifications). Qualifications encompass a whole lot of factors. What if I hire the black because being faced with adversity is a qualification I look for in an employee. Would you sue me? Would you cry affirmative action? Sooner or later, you are going to regret saying it when it wasn't warranted instead of saving it for when it was.
Good thing Canada's a big place... You need a big place to hold 110% of the population.
Just curious. How many blacks reading Slashdot?
Yes, racism *does* exist, no arguing that. But to say that racism is the sole reason someone is not getting the promotion they feel they are entiteled to, or the "special" treatment they want, is absolutely wrong.
In a time when the technology sector is short on *any* type of skilled labor, race is not an issue in hiring a person. However, other factors, such as personality, demeanor, and emotional intelligence *do* matter.
People who see racism as an obstacle should see is as just that - an obstacle, which is, after all, something you see when you take your eyes off your goal.
btw: I am a Latino who grew up in a f*cked-up Chicago neighborhood, attended the Chicago Public School System, who made the most of things. When I got to college, I was *glad* to be surrounded by more "priveleged" kids. I didnt envy them - I thrived on their arrogance and background, because i proved I was twice as smart - not only did I have to KEEP UP in CS classes, I had to CATCH UP. Your peers set your threshold of achievement - if I had gone to a community college or DeVRY, I wouldn't have had the ambition I have now as a software engineer.
========================== pipe(13) -- can you figure it out?
Ear Phanton stated: "Microsoft aside, we face an even bigger problem that 1) blacks and Hispanics live in poorer neighborhoods, 2) blacks and Hispanics are more likely to have undereducated parents..."
Yes, but it is true that my Hispanic parents had an 8th grade education and held shitty jobs, but I did not hold that against them and feel sorry for myself. They taught me VALUES and WORK ETHIC. To this day, i can't hold just one job - I need at least two, else I feel lazy.
Since my parents couldn't do it, I owed it to them to make it in life. They didn't risk their lives coming to this country illegally just for their kids to be lazy, fuck up in school, join a gang, get my teenage GF pregnant, and become part of the functional underclass.
If I learned anything in life, I didnt feel like a "minority" until I got to college - when the looney leftist Latino-power students made me feel like one. It was the "cultural" student groups who always had something to say about how I am not equal to the rest of the school (75% white) because of my skin color. I saw myself as a CS student first, researcher second, and never gave anyone a reason to look at me as a Latino first. To this day, I relate more to people with similar ethic and interests as me, rather than race.
Yes, there is racism out there. But people are going to hate you for the first thing they see about you. If you have big ears, there's bound to be someone who's gonna hate you for your big ears. Got a birthmark on your face? Someone's bound to make fun of you because of it. People are forever going to have biases. It's a matter of how you deal with those people.
Remember: Assholes come in every color.
========================== pipe(13) -- can you figure it out?
I disagree with your view on promotions, especially in large companys where managers may be rewarded for promoting people of color. I do agree that your race is looked down on sometimes because of affirmative action (which is one of the reasons i think affirmative action is a bad idea.) another reason that you may be descriminated against is because there seem to be so many frivolous allegations of racism these days. The bottom line is that racism does exist, and to some extent we all feel it. I just think it is a better idea to improve your community rather than spend time screaming about something that may be hindering you, but is not crippling you. You seem to have the right Idea, to EARN respect rather than demand it for no reason. This was not intended to be a flame. Like it or not, this is how I feel.
"C" is for cookie, that's good enough for me.
Nice Point: You've just shot yourself in the foot. How many Gold medalists on the short distances at the past few Olympics have been coloured as opposed to white? Face it: physical differences exist: ask any medical student about sickel cell anemia. This doesn't however constitute a judgment of value, because that would be racism
Same as Jews being good lawyers: when you have grown up in a culture that has known codified law, both penal and civil, for almost 6000 years, your cultural background will give you an advantage if you go to law school. It's just a factual difference, not a value judgment
Mart
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
All they gotta do is break into bills house and look under in his sofa they i'm sure that 5 or 6 billion fell out of his pockets this week.
"The secret of success is to know something nobody else knows." -Aristotle Onassis
Why are there few women in the tech industry? Society says "Because women just aren't good with technical stuff like cars and computers". Utter bullshit of course, but its the perpetuated myth that boils down in how parents raise their daughters "here, learn something useful, like sewing instead of that computer".
We need to be looking at the perpetuated myths of one's "place" in society. It's not just in white culture, it's in every culture, race, religion and gender.
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I have been in a hiring position and have seen the dearth of qualified black applicants for software engineering positions. Get some stats on the percentage of Computer Science majors that are black. In order to prove discrimination, you have to show that Microsoft made a practice of denying jobs and promotions to qualified black applicants, not just that there weren't a lot of blacks working at Microsoft. There aren't any white people working at my local McDonalds. Does that mean that McDonalds must be discriminating against white people? Use some logic.
What does it say about the issue of racism that /.ers jump to defend Microsoft?
The real case hasn't even been in court yet. The only information about the case is the suit claim broken into soundbites. If the case has no merit, it will be thrown out.
BTW, Racism does exist in corporate America, just look at Texico, Arbee's, Coca-Cola, Avis, etc.
To the biased whiners who're on here pissing and moaning about the $5 Billion figure, defending M$, all I can say is: It's the same insane dollar figure that you assholes use to come up with damage assessments on individuals who break into your networks. Let me pose this to you, let's say M$ caught the hacker point blank that was taking source code or whatever and sending it to Russia. How much do you think M$ would sue that ONE individual for? How much would the FBI and whoever else tack on as additional restitution? Shitloads more than you, I or any of us here collectively will probably ever make in a lifetime. You jackholes do the same thing, exaggerating dollar figures sky-high to pay for "company losses". Gimme a break, you and your companies lost a damn weekend of securing your system, some general headaches and some bad press. And NO, I'm not advocating script kiddies!Honestly, these legal damages they're seeking for what NO one here can verify as "fair/unfair" treatment in their working environment is standard hyperbole... you think an auto accident is worth suing an individual into the ground over? Some cases, shit yeah, others, hell no! So basically what some here are saying is that the plaintiffs should be suing for something nice and fair, like say... $10,000... For being treated like less than a person. Bottom line is, it's up to the individuals who feel and experience this stuff to decide what they consider "discrimination". It's all subjective arguments. What one group thinks is god-awful treatment, others might consider normal status quo.
I've worked as a developer at several IT corporations, and I've noticed that there are very few black geeks.
The blacks that did work for any of the companies typically worked in HR or Sales.
I don't think that the problem is that direct racism is keeping blacks out of tech fields, but that there just aren't a whole lot of blacks who are into tech.
At the last LUG install-fest that I attended, most of the members and visitors were predominantly whites and asians (and a Peruvian Indian?? -- A visiting compsci professor). No blacks?
When I take classes or attend training - No blacks?
The only black geek I ever met worked for a bank. Sadly, he was a VB developer - albiet a pretty good one.
It seems odd that there aren't more blacks in tech fields. Even crappy inner-city schools do not seem like a good reason for their under-representation -- I've worked with developers, sys admins, and network techs who didn't have college degrees, and even a few who didn't graduate high school, for cripes sake!
I'd like to know how many black slashdot readers there are, and what their thoughts on the above are.
The only thing that we learn from history is that nobody learns anything from history.
It's hard being female you say. But females roughly make up 50% of the worlds population. How can you say 50% of people are discriminated against, or something else along those lines. This is a concept I have a very hard time grasping.
I think crying racism, sexism, sexual orientation discrimination, even reverse racism, its all a form of coping socially. It identifies you with a group in either a conscious or unconscious way. Humans have a natural desire to belong.
Consider that 50% of the population can identify with a group based on their sex, and have it viewed credibly (any asian, white, or african female for example.). In addition many males can identify with a group based on their non-majority racial group. This too is viewed credibly. This leaves white males. If they were to form an exclusive group, it is blatant racism.
I've seen someone say in these comments before that white people are now outnumbered in all of California. I know first hand that I've seen news reports here in Canada that white people are just about outnumbered in Toronto now (if they aren't already). So how can everyone blame us white males for everything, when really we are only a small portion of the demographic makeup of our society.
Reverse discrimination? That doesn't mean anything. Discrimination is discrimination, it doesn't matter which group is discriminating against which. If an Hispanic man discriminates against blacks as a group, would you call that sideways discrimination?
There you go, the one time I submit without a preview..!
--
If the good lord had meant me to live in Los Angeles
How many blacks own football teams? How many blacks own teams in other major sports? How many blacks are there in the upper management of any of the major music production companies?
There will never be. I have to conclude that infection called 'greed' comes mostly from 'white areas'. While white people were trying to conquer and steal, Asians (for example) have been trying to 'clean their souls', 'help their neighbours', etc.
And yes, I'm white. And yes, I live in Asia. Sadly, I've also realized that 'white people' might have the $$$, but Asian people have the 'heart & soul'.
Isn't is amazing that white people in Asia don't get into trouble for their skin color, while Asian people in UK/Europe will easily get some trouble?
Sad...
Where did they arrive at 5 billion for 7 people?
It seems to me that the amount awarded should not be an amount so large that the 'victim' would have willingly been a victim for that price.
I can tell you now, for that amount of money, I would go once more through all prejudice short of physical violence that I have experienced in my lifetime. I see greed sprawled across the table. Both sides.
With my years of experience in the industry I would say that there is some evidence of racism in IT. There are some places that I have worked that were very diverse and there are other places that were whiter than a saltine, and there were other places that were pretty damn white except for the H1B laborers that were put in for cheap labor.
The racism in IT takes a couple forms now, either by a failure to hire or allow for the growth of minorities in IT or the growing hostility towards HIB visa holders.
Yet, I find that the most interesting dilemma out there in IT land is that there is an alarming instance of AGEISM... If you're near 40 or over then you are almost definitely NOT going to get hired anywhere. With the supposed shortage that allows for H1B visa increases it's suprizing that there are so many qualified and interested candidates out there who cannot get hired or advance into needed roles within their organizations.
There is a serious problem in IT, not just fo minorities but for those of different ages, classes, nationalities, and everyone else. If you don't see that there is a problem then you are either a fool or have put the blinders on yourself out of ignorance or hatred, of the two they are hard to tell apart.
"When people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'." -Bakunin
Unless Microsoft has "White" and "Colored" on the bathroom doors, I don't see how the company itself is to blame.
-p4
(c) All Rights Released.
I know this may be a radical thought, but have you considered that mabey you weren't the most qualified applicant, and one of those white guys was?
I know tons of engineers that think they're the most qualified for damn near any position you have open. Most of 'em are wrong.
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You sure got a purty mouth...
Thats exactly right. If them blacks and hispanics were as good at math as those asian folks, they wouldn't have no stigma, either. And them indians just need to stay off the sauce.
It no longer surprises me that the moronators moronate this stuff up. Friggin' idiots.
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You sure got a purty mouth...
I don't care about blacks wages, I care about mine. And there are plenty of blacks out there pulling in good money - are they making as much as a white person with the same skills - don't know, don't care.
if your good your good regardless of skin color. People tend to cry race whenever they arent good enough for a job.
Reverse discrimination (a.k.a Affirmative Action) does in fact exist. It's a law based attempt to reverse a bad trend that had existed because of human stupidity. It's a specific case of descrimination, you're right about that bit. It's also a distinct case and does justify the name. It'll probably be lost to antiquity within a few years though. Near as I can tell it's an attempt to jump start careers of people who share characteristics with people who were descriminated in the past and supposedly need the boost to correct the wrongs that've been done. I believe the laws are useless now, the qualifications of the people seeking jobs get them hired. On the other hand the people whose ancestors were maligned have been put into a sort of caste by society, which the law seeks to break them out of. Kind of a sticky situation. To me it seems a necessary evil that should be done away with after it's usefulness has been realized. (Sorry if I'm wandering from the topic, I do that =/ ) The point is it does exist, and I think you're confusing discrimination with prejudice. Reverse discrimination only implies that it's a reversal of prior trends. If I'm utterly mistaken feel free to enlighten me.
Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
I mean this in an entirely serious way. I am a young white male myself, and found out the hard way while in high school, trying to get scholarships for college it helped mainly to be #Extremely good at sports #2 Female #3 a minority, and last but not least #4 Intelligent(in a packer kind of way, the public school systems don't like mappers too much :-) ) I went to a small texas high school where I had the best SAT scores in school, was in National Honor Society, top 10 %, Won regional science fair zoology two years in a row, got a second best of fair at said regionals and went to ISEF International Science Fair, needless to say I secured a whopping $2000 in scholarships, one of my African-American friends who played basketball got a full ride to a private university. I don't know about all you other nonatheletic intelligent types out there but it kinda ticks me off that there's no McDonald's scholarship for white guys. Where is the foundation for getting whites through college, i don't see one do any of you, if so clue me in, cause the only reacism i've ever encountered was benig called a little white boy in middle school.
You know, it's shit like this lawsuit that makes me almost want to be a racist so I could impose myself upon the people suing. (As they think everyone is doing already. I feel like that old quote from Dad: "I'll give you something to cry about!) Perhaps it's just an overall hate towards self-riteous people imposing themselves upon others. Just some rantin'...
"Ummmm..."
My statement is based on the NAACP of today, not the one of 80 years ago. They are very, very, very different. They are not only anti-white racists, but they hold their own people back by fanning the flames of whatever racism still exists in this country.
The NAACP of today is a great evil, and a blight on society. I am saddened and angered by what they do to hold blacks back from shedding their own limitations.
The leaders of the NAACP care about one thing, and one thing only: their own power. I hope and pray that the black population wakes up and rejects them and people like them.
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Can you guess who I am?
Bill Gates just gave a billion or so bucks to the NAACP, right?
Oh God, I hope not. The NAACP is one of the most racist organizations in America, perhaps even worse than the KKK (primarily because they are so much bigger and more powerful).
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Can you guess who I am?
Great point. However, this type of lawsuit seems to be a product of American culture. Most of America's fortune 500 comapanies have one if not more of these lawsuits pending.
I think this is a result of lawyers going for a cash grab and probably has nothing to do with racism. I saw one of the ladies on Television telling a story of how she was told she would never move up in the company. That story did not sound like her boss was being racist, just sounded like he was trying to motivate her.
Whatever happens, I think 99.9999 percent of of companies have a 0 tolerence of racism and if their is racism then it is usually a result of one or two bad apples.
-Angreal
Ahem. Lawyers. Lawyers make money on returns from the settlements or judgements. They are the bastards that encouraged them to ask for the kind of money that no one could ever earn in a million years short of screwing the world over or becoming a Banana republic dictator. If I was Gates I would put out a contract on the lawyers that filed those complaints as a response to such a ludicrous request. RULE #1. Don't try to bully the mob.
I see what you are saying... I work in the news industry (where I came to my own as a white man from rural Indiana) on the mean streets everyday. I have spoken to Senators and crack-heads on the same day and done stories on both... and the only issue that I have seen in the past five years is that of ignorance. There is one single dilineation in humanity... those that seek out knowledge and those that do not. There has never been a race issue other than the particular culture of knowledge that the race promotes. These are cultural wars... not human ones... and certainly not individual based. I have trained myself to speak to all people regardless of my gut reaction (its my job), and every time I am surprised in a positive manner by almost all of them. KEEP IN MIND THAT EDUCATION LIES AROUND YOU AT ALL TIMES... the best are self-taught naturals. The opportunity excuse can be used, but the best people don't ever need to believe all of that hype. And there will always be a group of people in the world regardless of race that will sit back and relax when they should be studying, that is a PERSONAL PROBLEM. And by the way slashdotters, I have met Jesse Jackson, and if I ever hear another POS posting about the "agenda" of such a positive and hardworkig man, I will puke... you can officially speak poorly about a man only after you have spoken to him personally. Get out and meet some people, admit your opinions about them are formed from few encounters... and meet more people!!! Stay positive and learn!!!
Really people, if the very fact of being different in some way bothers you... you need to seriously seek psychological help. THE WORLD IS FULL OF PEOPLE THAT ARE DIFFERENT THAN YOU, AND DAMMIT, IT IS COOL AS HELL. Embrace it. Smile a little and everything will be fine. I work every day next to a female, African-American Muslim and she teaches me all sorts of great things daily. It is a joy to live and work next to these people. See the surprise on their faces as an opportunity to TEACH THEM SOMETHING... RATTLE THEIR CAGES A BIT!!!! Cmon here people, getting so damn negative doesn't do anything... just because you're an intellectual doesn't mean that you have to cop the defacto moodiness and standard intense one sided "I am always right view."
It is the South, there are some issues there...(INSERT FLAMEBAIT RESPONSE HERE) and the schools are crappy. But that is everywhere in TN. Your school experience (in any school in Tennessee) is not special by any means. But blaming school is wrong. Could be worse. Could be in a country where school is not even there. Talking el crappo here people.
As a Hispanic male I can only account for the experiences I have endured myself. I live in an area where the population of Hispanics nearly equals that of the white population and the same can be accounted for the University I attend. Yet, when I look in my Computer Sciences courses the proportion of whites to hispanics was nearly 4:1.
The reason why a lot women aren't in high tech is not because they can't do it, but it stems from societal pressure saying they can't. If you're a racial minority you face a similiar problem that is not so evident to the majority. There have been many instances where I've been told I'm "white" for pursuing a science, and specifically a Computer Science degree, by some in the Hispanic commmunity. I've been labeled a "white-boy" for pursuing a degree which has historically been white-male oriented.
If you look at it on an economic basis, instead of a societal one as I have above, you can draw the same conclusions. I was reared in a lower-middle class family and the prospect of entering, essentially, a new economic class is a bit frightening. Then there are the people out there within the same economic class that you are in that do not want you to get ahead.
The "Digital Divide" is another factor for the lack of minorities in the tech sector. How many of us started to program at a rather young age? Remember how expensive computers were 5+ years ago? My family paid $2k for a 486DX2 desktop in '93 (I think). Prior to that computers were $3k+. Prior to the fairly recent price drops, suburbia was the only area where new computers were available and to an extent we still see that. Now that computers are readily available at school, I think that the next crop of tech workers will be in areas that have not been touched. This is why you see companies investing large amounts of money into these areas. Not only is it good PR, but come 10-15 years they are hoping they will have a plethora of new young and skilled workers.
Most of the people that I have met in CS at the University I attend are more financially stable than the average person. I hope I am not misunderstood in saying that minorities are poor, ghetto-ridden persons, but in America, white families, on average, earn more than minorities. Is that because of racism? I don't know, but I think I see a correlation between the economic well-being of people and CS majors.
Two points on this "statistic": 1. How do these numbers imply that microsoft is racist? Are there any numbers stating how many black employees applied vs hired? Even then how many applied that were qualified? 2. What are the percentages of other nationalities at mirosoft? Are they in comparison with the statistics for the black employees? What about in contrast with nationality statistics nationwide? rant I'm not pro microsoft and I am anti-racist, however, I feel too many people have cried wolfe on similair subjects. tnar
Japanese
link
Dancin Santa
As for the rest of your comment, it just depends on your point of view. Sometimes it is good for a company to have to pay punitive damages, but you can't expect the damages to be punitive on that scale when you are talking about the welfare of just a few people. If you did, every company in America would be bankrupt before the years end! I agree with your last line, but not with your overly punitive attitude to, on the great scale of things, trivial little incidents. Sorry.
--Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The
The irony, of course, is that as technical people one would assume they would be adept at employing logic and reason in the course of critically analyzing a phenomena. What we have instead, of course, is anecdotal, e.g., "Where I work, and I am a white guy, I'm a (numerical) minority ... so racism doesn't exist ... ", or "I've worked at MS, and I am a white guy, and I've never personally experienced racism, so racism doesn't exist at MS."
With respect to the issue at hand, I'll leave it to the judge (and jury) to decide based on the facts brought up during the litigation of the case.Oh yeah, one more thing: racism is systemic. This implies that racism not only exists, it is normal. Meaning that even if you are the target of an act of racism you might not even register it unless it was egregious. An other way to describe racism, is that it is insidious.
I've worked in the Silicon Valley as a consultant for ten years. When I first moved to the area I was immediately struck by the near-complete absence of African-Americans working in tech... and living in the local neighborhoods, as well. It's still the same now.
I've witnessed with my own eyes anti-black bias in the interviewing and hiring process. I move between companies regularly, so I feel pretty confident concluding the practice is widespread. It's not always intentionally malicious-- often I've seen the bias expressed as a sort "discomfort" with the individuals in question. But intentional or not, it's unfair and irrational make decisions on that basis.
West-coast tech companies tend to be lax and have loose organizational structure. In such an environment human nature goes unchecked to a certain extent. This doesn't stop with the rank and file -- management is largely uncontrolled as well. The *only* time I've ever seen upper management intervene on HR issues is when there was a lawsuit involved.
I hear plenty of racist comments flying in all directions at work. It's not only whites against everyone else. (Perhaps mostly, though.) But for some reason African-Americans and Hispanic Americans suffer the most.
Microsoft has enough issues to be dealt with and I think anything can be construed as racism depending on the way people tend to take things, remember that microsoft scandal with the monkey bars and a picture of little black kids playing on those monkey bars.
People's instinct to overblow many situations don't help, I don't see anyone complaining about the rotten situations Mexicans must deal with when they're stereotyped to be low wage workers in almost all instances, or Arabics to be stereotyped as 7-11 workers or taxi drivers. All you hear about is the media hyped bullshit which makes for juicy gossip enough to bring in the hits to those websites or sales to those magazines, newspapers, etc.
Windows2000 Spoof
360 degrees of Karma
No Taco, YOU ARE SMART AS HELL!! what with your perfect grammar, fact checking and all around know-it-all-ness.
You make us all look dumb.
Responding to the many comments here about 5bil being "absurd", consider what this means to MS or any other corporation. If all that happened when they do something wrong was being forced reimberse the offended for whatever amount they lost, that would be a very weak detterent.
The government has very few ways of enforsing legislation against a corporation (they can't give Bill Gates 5-10), they usually have to resort to fines. The fines have to be high enough to be as much of a deterrent as going to jail would be for an average person.
Well I'm White. Your observations are somewhat correct. ( like that realy matters ) But I've taken some steps to rectify this issue within myself and a community.
I happen to be the only white guy in 4 firms that I own. Artist Corner ( music tv show ), KVP ( production company ), Shades of Hip Hop ( video's production on the urban underground ), one graphic design company. Of all these companies I have acted as VC and or partner. Mind you I don't have more than 25% interest in any of these firms. And there all recent startup within the past 2 years.
There is one golden rule that I have installed within the firms, we have to hire within the community ( the community gives us alot of love and we returned it ).
I act as the token "white boy" and again your right. Do you know how much respect any of our team's get when I show up. "gee theres the white guy let's ask him". We have a proceedure that I MUST be briefed and tested before I show up anywhere or see customers, and that's because it's excpected that I will be the one, that will have to bear the brunt of all question. Even though I have a 50/50 chance of getting or saying the wrong thing.
So if the truth is to be told. I'm white, in the public eye's I'm right, outsiders can't see past skin color, so work within the rules and show people that color doesn't realy mater.
I'm currently looking for a good coder that would like some part time work making and helping with a web site. Needs to know how to install slash code (must have done it before). please review my bio for the correct e-mail
if you see me, smile and say hello.
I've always thought that racism was from the lack of intelligence... I've personally never incountered it in my career, then again - I'm a Linux nut and I've always thought that the majority of Microsoft was more coorporate and business oriented than anything else, not to mention the seemingly lack of brain power ;)
Most of the people posting on this topic have no idea what the issues or facts are. Before you prejudge this case I'd advise you to read the following article and get information from those who actually work at Microsoft.
What looks like meritocracy can brim with bias
By Edward Iwata, USA TODAY
SAN JOSE, Calif. -- The ugly images seem incongruous with the highflying, high-tech world often touted as the ultimate meritocracy, where talent counts more than skin color.
But racial discrimination appears to have found a home there, too, minority employees contend. Consider these racial discrimination lawsuits and complaints filed with state and federal agencies:
At 3Com, a veteran telecommunications manager who is black was shunned by his bosses and given a desk alone in a chilly backroom with computer equipment. The day after his lawyer called the company to request a mediation meeting, he was fired.
At NEC Electronics, a white manager waved a 6-foot bullwhip at meetings, confiding to a colleague that she used it to keep black employees in line, according to former NEC workers. White managers at the company frequently spewed racial slurs, legal filings allege
At Oracle, a seasoned manager, who is Hispanic, was allegedly berated by her bosses and given minor tasks, from fetching coffee to typing name tags. After she was fired, it took months of therapy for her to regain her confidence.
More than a generation after the civil-rights movement swept the nation, legal and diversity experts contend the technology field is troubled by racist, hostile workplaces and blatant discrimination in the hiring and promotion of African-Americans and Hispanics.
''Clearly, (racial) discrimination is still a problem in the workplace, and technology is no exception,'' says Angela Alioto, a San Francisco attorney representing former employees suing NEC for discrimination and retaliation.
A major study last year of 250 Silicon Valley firms employing 142,000 workers found that 4% were black and 8% were Hispanic, reports John Templeton, co-founder of the Coalition for Fair Employment in Silicon Valley. In the San Francisco Bay Area, blacks and Hispanics make up 8% and 14% of the workforce, the Labor Department finds. ''Our patience has worn thin,'' Templeton says. ''It's unconscionable that their (hiring) numbers are so ridiculously low.''
A groundswell of legal and political activity on the issue of discrimination has spread nationwide to gleaming technology parks and corporate campuses:
In recent months, high-tech firms have been hit with dozens of lawsuits and complaints alleging racial discrimination. In the largest case, dozens of an expected 300 current and former employees of Nextel Communications have filed complaints with the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, charging racial and sexual discrimination. Nextel has declined comment until the firm completes its investigation.
Class-action law firms are hungry to sign on technology workers who feel they've suffered from racism. ''This may well be the next hot area for class actions,'' says Steve Sidener, a lawyer at Gold Bennett Cera & Sidener in San Francisco.
The political heat is rising in the high-tech, anti-discrimination arena. On Saturday, 100 people filled Emmanuel Baptist Church here for a workplace-rights seminar sponsored by the Coalition for Fair Employment, the NAACP and the EEOC. Minority workers in business attire shed a few tears and shared tales of anger about slamming into the glass ceiling at their Silicon Valley companies.
On Capitol Hill, the National Urban League and other black leaders are fighting the government's plans to double to 200,000 the number of H-1B visas for high-tech foreign workers. They argue that technology firms seeking to hire immigrants are ignoring well-qualified blacks and Hispanics at home. According to the Labor Department, there are 583,000 black and Hispanic engineers, computer scientists and technicians in the United States.
Activist Jesse Jackson and his Rainbow/PUSH Coalition continue to lobby for more hiring and training of blacks and Hispanics. In recent visits to Silicon Valley, Jackson has met with Cisco Systems CEO John Chambers, Intel CEO Craig Barrett, Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina and other power brokers.
The EEOC is on the prowl. Criticized as a paper tiger in the high-tech field, the EEOC appears to be hunting more closely for workplace discrimination in Silicon Valley. The agency recently beefed up its San Francisco district office, nearly doubling its staff to 50 investigators and lawyers.
David Grinberg, an EEOC spokesman, denies it is targeting technology firms and says it investigates discrimination claims in all industries. But employment-law attorneys and government regulators say privately that race and age discrimination complaints by high-tech workers are slowly rising. And, as it does in other industries, the EEOC hopes to ''send a message'' by taking on a large Silicon Valley firm or two.
Are claims 'absurd'?
High-tech boosters hail their industry as one where vision and hard work are richly rewarded, regardless of race or ethnicity. Given the critical shortage of technology workers, anyone who can write software code can land a good job, they argue. ''Sure, there are individual cases of discrimination, but to claim there's widespread racial bias in our industry is just absurd,'' says T.J. Rodgers, CEO of Cypress Semiconductor in San Jose and an outspoken critic of affirmative action.
Industry cheerleaders also point to the many firms -- Cisco, IBM, Gateway, Applied Materials and others -- that work hard on the digital divide issue. They fund scholarships for thousands of minorities and give money and computers to inner-city schools and training projects. They note that groups including the Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers and the National Society of Black Engineers are working more closely with high-tech firms on recruiting, training and other issues. ''We're making progress, but a lot more needs to be done,'' says Leticia Vidal, executive director of the Hispanic engineers' group in Los Angeles.
But critics say that companies also must deal with racial attitudes deeply embedded in corporate cultures and managers. ''Silicon Valley prides itself on being a unique meritocracy, but of course there's discrimination there just as there is in every other industry,'' says Butch Wing, a spokesman for the Rainbow/PUSH coalition.
A shocking dismissal
Lindsay Brown, a tall, friendly man from Sioux City, Iowa, speaks proudly of his career accomplishments and his family. Before joining 3Com in 1998, he had worked 25 years for IBM, Rolm and Siemens as a telecommunications manager.
At 3Com, he was hired as a telecom analyst and promised management duties and training. He was told he would be a valued member of the team. Instead, he was ignored and given menial tasks, according to Brown; his attorney, Doris Nehme; and state legal records. He was not invited to project meetings. He was reprimanded for taking time off for his stepmother's funeral and another family emergency, even though bosses had approved the days off. He was shunted to work alone at a desk in a cold computer room although there was space in the main office, according to the filing.
Last August, Brown strolled into work and tried unsuccessfully to log on to his computer. A few minutes later, a shocked Brown was told by his bosses that he had been fired.
''I felt humiliated,'' says Brown, speaking at his three-bedroom ranch home in Sunnyvale. ''I had never heard of anyone else at 3Com being treated this way.''
Brown hired an attorney and filed a complaint with the California Fair Employment and Housing Department, alleging discrimination, retaliation and harassment by four bosses at 3Com. He also requested right-to-sue notices to clear the way for a civil lawsuit.
Todd Irwin, a 3Com spokesman, denies that Brown was the target of discriminatory treatment. In a written statement, 3Com says Brown was fired ''after careful consideration of his performance and after repeated written and verbal warnings. 3Com does not discriminate. Our culture and values as a company are so strongly supportive of respecting diversity, we are confident anyone who knows our company will know this is an inaccurate charge.''
3Com declined to release the racial breakdown of its staff, but Labor Department data from 1996 show that 3% of its 3,800 employees were black, 6% Hispanic and 20% Asian. About 14% of its managers were minorities.
Brown and his lawyer say they plan to sue in federal court soon. Brown, who is unemployed, estimates the firing cost him $100,000 in lost salary, benefits and stock options. ''I do not want to use race as a crutch, but I had to fight this,'' Brown says. ''My mother was a devout Baptist, and she taught us the ethos of hard work. She also taught us to stand our ground if we believe we're right.''
Passed over for promotion
For two decades, Eugene Shands, a burly former Marine, toiled first as a cop and an assistant dean of students at University of California at Santa Barbara, then as a security manager at Amdahl. When he landed a plum job as NEC's security director in 1990, he thought he would retire at the San Jose company.
But problems started surfacing. Nearly every day at NEC's offices and warehouses, white managers and employees uttered racial and sexual slurs, including many that are too vulgar to be published here, according to lawsuits. Despite his experience and glowing job reviews, Shands -- who is black and Hispanic -- was passed over several times for promotions by whites with less experience, the lawsuits say.
The most startling incidents involved a former warehouse manager who kept a bullwhip in her office, former NEC workers say. She strode across the warehouse snapping the whip; she took it to staff meetings. ''Get to work!'' she yelled. When Shands asked her why she had it, he says she replied, ''To keep my colored boys in line. That's what they understand.'' Shands, who was mailed the whip anonymously, says, ''I couldn't believe this manager was saying these things.''
Mark Pearce, an NEC spokesman, declined to address the allegations but confirmed the problem with the manager's bullwhip. ''It's true that several years ago, we had a serious but isolated situation in the company. We carried out a thorough, independent investigation and took decisive, responsible action.''
The manager and another supervisor were fired after NEC's investigation, according to the lawsuits. The manager could not be reached for comment. But the racial slurs continued. Shands also alleged that his new NEC boss undercut his authority, piled on impossible work assignments and set him up for failure.
Shands lodged a complaint with the EEOC in 1997. A month later, he was fired. NEC accused him of falsifying his résumé with bogus police and educational credentials. Shands showed USA TODAY original documents and certificates corroborating his credentials.
After months of receiving treatment for depression, Shands wants his day in court. He has sued NEC in federal court for racial discrimination, breach of contract and retaliation. NEC's Pearce declines to comment on the lawsuit. He says that NEC -- a Japanese-owned company based in Tokyo -- is a ''mini-United Nations'' that trains employees to respect different cultures. Managers who engage in discriminatory actions are disciplined appropriately, he says.
That doesn't appease Shands. ''I'm still angry. I had a pretty good reputation in this Valley. Now it's at rock bottom. I want a jury to hear my story.''
From a bonus to being fired
Maria Flores, a Honduran woman who was born in a Central American fishing village and raised in New York City, was hired in 1996 by Oracle after 15 years at IBM as a technical trainer and sales manager.
Developing training programs for salespeople, Flores did well her first year. She got a big raise, a bonus and a glowing performance review, according to her legal documents. During a corporate reshuffling the next year, Flores ended up with a new boss. Suddenly, Flores could do no right. According to her EEOC complaint and lawsuit against Oracle, she was given menial tasks, such as sharpening pencils. She says she was made the scapegoat of a poorly conceived project that flopped. And while eight white colleagues on her team with less experience were promoted, Flores alleges that she was ''criticized, belittled and treated differently from non-minority employees.''
In December 1997, her manager wrote up Flores and told her she needed to improve her performance. A month later, Oracle fired her. In court filings, Oracle's law firm, Keesal Young & Logan, deny the charges raised by Flores. A statement from Oracle also says Flores' allegations are ''without any merit.'' Flores was hired over two white job applicants, the statement reads, and the actions taken against her ''were in no way based on her race or ancestry.''
Oracle says the company enjoys a reputation as one of the best high-tech companies on diversity issues. Oracle actively recruits minorities, sponsors dozens of minority career conferences and recently donated $700,000 to the United Negro College Fund.
The fast-growing firm also appears to have hired more minorities in recent years. In 1996, minorities made up 26% of its workforce of 12,000 and 9% of its managers, according to the Labor Department. Today, 32% of its workforce of 44,000 and 25% of its managers are minorities, Oracle says.
Flores still was devastated by her firing. She sought comfort from friends and a counselor. She flew to Honduras for a month, visiting relatives in the fishing village and taking long walks with her elderly father.
''After all of my hard work, I did not deserve to be treated so shabbily by Oracle,'' she says. ''They had no legal or moral right to deny me the fruits of my labor.''
Let's look at some historical facts about racism in America:
1)Racisism exists: Has since who knows when.
2)The Black community does not have it worse than other groups of people. Lets look at the other races as well.
--Indians: (the American Tribes that were here before the white man came) were forced off their native lands into reservations. Many were slaughtered, raped, camps pillaged, some taken as slaves. Some of these groups have capitalized and built casinos and gotten rich. While others still live on poor reservations.
--Asians: Came to America in the mid 1800's with the promise of a better future. This particular group of people helped built the first cross-county railroad in the united states. How were they repaid? Many were killed while working on the railroad because the Tycoons didn't want to pay them. Yes, they hired gunmen to kill them on the job or off. Others of Asian decent worked in laundry shops or as servents. Some where even taken as payment by white men and made slaves as well. Many are now furthering themselves in college. As a college student I have been amazed at how many people of Asian decent are in the IT sector of college. It's good to see.
--Blacks: Used as slaves. The initial group of black slaves where sold into slavery to the Brittish and other merchants by their own people in Africa. Some where taken forcibly from their homes. Many died on the trip overseas as well. However, their plight was to be slaves. They were not mass slaughtered due to their value as slaves and cost to aquire them initially. Some where targets of outraged white citizens due to percieved crimes and lynched. They are no longer slaves.
To say that the black community has suffered the most is a farce. There's no basis for that claim at all. As one looks at the history of the world, racism was practiced by all cultures. The Persians segregated their populations and forced entire cultures to be split and moved to different parts of the empire to keep them from rebelling after being conqued. Many were made slaves. Romans also made slaves of those they conquered. Killed those who stood against the empire. Many of the conquered were also made into Gladiators when the arena games became popular.
Racism is an ugly fact, but it's not one that we have to allow to continue. People who claim to be African-American, Asian-American, German-American, etc. are only helping to keep it all alive. We are all Americans in this country, and we need to work together to once again be proud to say it. We are not differnt groups of Americans, we are of differing decent. I am and American of European decent. I was born and raised here, that makes me full blooded AMERICAN. If you swore your allegiance to this country and gained citizenship, then you are an AMERICAN too. We should think of ourselves as not as black-american or white-american, but as simply AMERICANS with unique talents, skills, and looks.
Suits such as these need to be carefully reviewed before passing judgement upon what is going on. The amount being sued for was to help get media attention to the suit and spark just these kinds of comments pro and against. Racism needs to be wiped out, but this isn't the way. It's a long and perilous road up and out to true diversity and freedom. Who will join in that fight? The fight for all peoples, as a whole.
Death, Life...One is tolerable, the other is not.
What the truth is is 25% of all negros have IQ's 70 and below. The average white person has between 15 - 20 pointer higher when it comes to IQ. The truth is only a small percentage of the negro race is even capable of learning and understanding anything in the IT field. You can go to the Department of Justice web page and find out all this info. The media also want you not to know that negros are 7 times more likely to commit murder than whites and 20 times more likely to commit interracial murder than whites. And they wonder why 50% of all black men will be in prison or probation in their life. They make up more than 50% of the prison population and only 12% of the population of the country. It is not because "they can't afford an attorny". It is they are commiting the crimes. You can also find this out at the DOJ web page. The negro race never really had to learn anything until 40 or 50 years ago. It is just not in their genetic makeup to excell at higher learning. They were bred for slavery. Hence that is why they are superior in sports by the percentage. The white man has been schooling for thousands of years, hence why the superiorority in higher learning. This is not racist talk, just fact. But you'll never hear that news from the media.
Why aren't people from India not black enough to be counted in these statistics that yield the injustice systematically comitted @ the Big Evil?
Microsoft is and has always been eager to employ and enlessly promote anyone who can code, manage or market, even if you come from Mars and have green skin.
dB@dblock.org
Unfortunately we start seeing the contrary. A much less qualified black candidate would get promoted or hired because of the statistics purposes. It's sad, especially in high tech companies, where geeks are more likely to discriminate on how well you know Star Trek rather than on your skin color.
Btw, in the dev world, there's no such a thing as a choice of candidates, it's an individual candidate being recruited, if he qualifies, he is happily hired regardless whether he's black, white, blue or anything else. He usually doesn't compete with anyone simply cause there's room for even more.
dB@dblock.org
Thank got the Univ oc Calif. regents and later the state voters voted to simply remove "race, gender, national origin, sexual orientation" from consideration criteria for all jobs, student applications, etc.
An end to racism is a good thing, right?
Guess who is most against and want these laws repealed and the affirmative action programs and admissions rules put back to favoe [ethnic flavors of the day]? It's the ones who run the race based programs, i.e., The minorities who profit from racism (getting state/federal dollars) and don't want it to end. Face it, without hate and racism, what would Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Louis Farrakhan do for a living? They'd be out of a job, so naturally they don't want racism to end. They need "hate", for their continued existance. And it it's not there anymore, they'll create it themselves.
Your post may be an example of the kind of racism that goes on in companies. It is hard to tell from just your post but do you think that whites are better at engineering in general? Do you think that this is the way it should be? Do you think that an aspiring black engineer should have to prove himself (or herself) more than a white one, or be at a disadvantage?
And, most importantly, are you completely sure that your conviction that "Engineering is largely the sport of white males" would never influence your judgment if you had decide between hiring a black applicant and a white applicant who looks like what you think an engineer or project manager should look like? (I don't mean to accuse you of racism; this is just something to think about. Also consider how this question applies to the judgment of other people you know in your company or in the industry.)
The point of the lawsuit is that those blacks who do decide to become engineers should not be discriminated against. (Just as it would be unfair to deny a white guy the opportunity to become a rapper if he wanted to.)
Whites score on average about 30 points below Asians on the SAT I math, and blacks score on average about 106 points below whites. If you look at the distribution curve, it's even more striking. Only a few hundred blacks per year have SAT I math scores above 700. A 700 Math SAT is about the minimum for a serious CS degree.
That's reality, like it or not.
It seems the general consensus among white, male tech workers is that they belong in the industry. If they are up for a promotion against an equally skilled minority, of COURSE they should get the promotion, because they're automatically more skilled. Because the majority of tech managers are ALSO white, this attitude is perpetuated.
I don't really think this is limited only to white males. Frankly, most of the american bred high tech workers I've met, especially the really good ones, are not the most modest people in the world. The basic fact of the matter is that when you have an inflated ego, a sense of entitlement tends to follow very closely. This seems to be especially true if you were brought up with a limited exposure to culture and cultural values from outside the US.
Now it may be that on average, more white families maintain less of their cultural heritage and therefore breed children which surrender themselves to the ego monster more easily. I know this is true at least in my own case and I'm sure the sense of entitlement I project to others has a lot to do with how they treat me.
Even back to college (University of Michigan), I was faced every day with fellow students who were SO SURE that they were smarter than me, and professors who didn't think that I deserved to be here, assuming that I was only here because of Affirmative Action (I've got that in the workplace as well).
So my big question is, how do you know your felow students were sure they were smarter than you? How do you know what they assumed? The biggest problem I think that exists is that as long as no one stands up and says something, an act that I might view as perfectly benign may to you be a deeply hurtful thing and the behavior will simply continue.
A lot of the descrimination I have read in these postings is someone's interpretation of a look or a feeling that someone else gives them. No real blatent descriminating. The problem is that unless you can read minds, the view you take upon a look or an act will be completely tainted by your past dealings with whatever group you've generalized the person into.
So the next time you feel that you've been descriminated against, no matter how minor, you might want to think about calmly and politely explaining to the person how that act made you feel or what you thought it was motivated by instead of trying to figure out what the other person is thinking.
Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
I can't accept need to redress damages for the acts of the dead. If I never hurt anyone, I hardly see any responsability to repay -- it's as bad as the concept of original sin. I'll be responsible for my own actions, but not for those of others. What's even worse with this concept is that you're making me (because I'm white) responsible for the actions of other white people I never even knew, and who aren't even related to me! (My family came to the States quite recently).
Your "guilt by color" is every bit as racist as those evils you propose it as restitution to. Since when did two wrongs make a right?
Finally, ignoring the status quo does not perpetuate it, simply because the link between parents' and childrens' financial wellbeing is imperfect. Even if 90% of a child's financial wellbeing as an adult is determined by his/her parents, that remaining 10% permits racial (and other group-specific) differencials to smooth themselves out over time.
This is completely normal computer-instilled arrogance though. Every single computing student or worker I've ever met has been like this. The average IT worker has to be the most ego-driven person on the face of the planet.
I honestly think you're overreacting. I don't have the first-hand knowledge that you've had to your own encounters, but I do know that what you have said so far sounds exactly like what I have experienced as a middle-aged white male.
And how old are you? How do you dress? Do you have punk style hair? Is your speech "refined" or do you speak l337? Do you sport a goatee or some other form of "irresponsible" beard? Do you have annoying habits like shifting your feet, picking your nose, using huge hand gestures, putting your hands in your pockets, scratching your crotch?
I've seen exactly the same situation you have just described, only it happened to a young white male who happens to like his hair coloured blue and studs in his lips. On the phone he sounds not at all unusual. When customers meet him face to face they fully freak out.
And I don't see how this particular situation is caused by skin colour. Of course, if you come from a privileged family then you'll have a 1st rate head start in computing. If you come from a poorer family then you'll need to work your ARSE off to get anywhere in computing. But this is an economic situation and it applies equally to all people of all skin colours.
Though I don't often say this, it seems to me you've got a great big chip on your shoulder.
This is not strictly relevent, but it reminds me of a story one of my professors at grad school told me. A few years ago, she was responsible for dividing the class into small groups to carry out case studies, so she simply made an alphabetical list of the students in the class, drew a line across it every 5 or 6 names and those were the groups. Now, there were a whole group of African (Nigerian, I believe) students in the class, who complained that she'd placed them in a group to segregate them from the class. When it was investigated, it was found that all their surnames began with an O! It wasn't racist at all, just a coincidence.
Incidentally, if anyone, black or white, described themselves to me as a "pimp ass perl hacker" I would immediately assume they were less than competent. Maybe you need to stop using your skin color as an excuse and pay more attention to your professionalism.
I agree (disclosure: I'm neither black not white :0) ). For example, when white TV executives are casting a black man, they create a character like Dr. Benton on ER - a successful, talented professional. When blacks portray blacks in the media, think about Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre boasting about pimping, dealing crack, stealing cars and whatever.
I see a lot of people stating that $5B is too much. This is number is nothing to do with what those 7 people might have earnt. This is about punitive damages. If there is racism, then the damages must be large enough to hurt the company and make them change their ways. It also a warning to other companies. MSFT can easily afford $5B damages without going under.
I won't comment on the validity of the claims: I don't know the facts. This could be a genuine case of racism, or it could be useless and disgruntled [ex-?]employees trying to play a race card and get money out of MSFT. I think that this is an important case as it will set precedents for the size of future claims. I hope that the trial doesn't turn into another BS circus.
I don't want to discount your experience, but...
White males don't have life easy either. I've frequently had to fight with people to make it clear that I was right and they were wrong. This is very common within the tech field, and unfortunately the more incompetent the person they more firmly they believe they are correct. One sees this on slashdot all the time, even.
There is also a lot of discrimination based on age, not so much within the tech community, but if you are dealing with people outside.
Unless someone is specifically calling you racial names, I do think you need to step back and evaluate the situation on whether the person is really being racist or just being an ass.
There are a lot of assholes and incompetent jackasses in this world and they don't discriminate based on the color of your skin.
The idea is to PUNISH Microsoft for what they did. $5,000 or even $5,000,000 is pocket change to them. Lawsuits tend to be for amounts in proportion to the company you're suing, not the amount of damage actually caused to you, for precisely this reason: if you don't sue them for enough money that it shows up on the books, they won't get the hint.
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
That's because you can! The amount you sue for has very little to do with the amount you get if you win. Just because you ask for something doesn't mean you get it. And the US court system isn't an all-or-nothing gamble. The judge can say he agrees with the people suing, but give them less than they are asking. In some cases, the judge will actually give them more than they ask for.
Also remember that a large portion of lawsuits are settled out of court before they go to trial, and the amount is almost always less than was initially asked for.
Some of the money requested is also meant to punish Microsoft to prevent them from doing things like this again. Also remember that people are greedy, especially lawyers.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
Sounds like a good case against Affirmative Action. It causes minorities who actually tried hard, excelled, and earned their position to be looked at as if they don't belong there. It seems like a disincentive to even try, thus repressing the minorities it was supposed to pull up.
I'm not saying that ending Afirmative Action would make white people respect minorities. And I don't know if there's anything that will really help, except for time, and people trying to respect each other. I'm just saying that Affirmative Action has negative consequences as well as positive, and we should question its effectiveness. It sounds like you would be where you are today without Affirmative Action, and would be able to command more respect.
That said, I try to practice my own "affirmative action" and give women and minorities a bigger benefit of the doubt, because I know that others have held them back or otherwise looked at them as less than they are. Also as a conscious effort to possibly offset any sexism/racism within my own mind. Actually, I find it nice to see some diversity in the field, and try to encourage it as much as I can.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
As stated in several other threads, most of the damages are punitive, to punish Microsoft and to make them remember not to do it again. Also, it will probably turn into a class action suit.
I wonder about such high punitive damages though. Why should the lawyers and plaintiffs receive all that? I'd like to see the judge give the majority of the punitive damages to some non-profit organization that helps minorities. (Assuming the plaintiffs win, but I doubt that they have a leg to stand on.)
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
A non-degreed candidate would need to have years of experience within a single company, to show the endurance. A lot of experience doing lots of little 2-5 month things then moving on to some other company rather than sticking around and at least supporting those who have to maintain what the programmer worked on does not impress me at all...
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
Of course, even thinking back to college there weren't that many of either demographic (and i _hate_ that word, mind you) in my CS classes...tho one of the best programmers i knew during college was black. if i could get a hold of him now, i'd yell at him to get a resume over to my company...
Now here at M$ we have a case where blacks were hired, and felt that they were being mistreated after getting the job...while i think its entirely possible that they weren't being treated any less favorably than others of their position -- I'd not be surprised to find that M$ treats ALL of its employees in that manner.
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
Not just easy to say - it's easy to do. I make it clear from my first contact with a prospective employer that, barring crisis, I do not work more than 40 hours in a week. I also make it clear that I know how to work such that those crises do not arise often - and that it's not how many hours one works, but the results one achieves that matters.
The most productive programmer I ever met worked exactly 40 hours each week. He easily outcoded any other two people in the building. He showed up well-rested, took regular breaks, didn't socialize while in the building, and produced line after line of bug-free code. If you can work even half that well, you'll find all the work you can stand.
-- Jeff Paulsen
-- Jeff Paulsen
Speaking as ANOTHER Black Man I have to agree whole-heartedly with this poster. While I work in an industry only tangentially related to tech (a public policy/R&D thinktank) I too have experienced the second-guessing and the seemingly constant justifications I have to go through to get usually older caucasian staff to follow clear direction.
I also do not agree with the $5 billion law suit. When are Americans going to realize that suing over everything is not the answer?
Anyway. I would like to see some other remedies used to correct any localized abuses. Suggestions ?
I doubt that Microsoft has a corporate wide racist policy. Just look at the varied ethnic makeup of their workforce. Such a policy would be unimplementable!!
ELITISM: It's always lonely at the top. Uninvited company is rarely welcome.
"it never even crossed my mind that it might be an issue in the tech industry"
Good God 'Taco, read any busy thread here at -1 and you'll see just how ugly people in this industry are.
How can this surprise anyone? Let's see, we now have a lot of spoiled white fresh college grads who see themselves as being replaced by cheaper H1-B immigrants (many of whom will be working a lot longer hours) - you don't think those people are going to start fostering thoughts of "those dirty immigrants stealing our jobs"?
Oh right, our workplaces are diverse because of all those Indian and Asian employees. Funny, in my last office building (shared by a multitude of dotcom companies), I saw one black guy. He was the janitor.
Gee, I dunno. Here in Silicon Valley, those 40 acres are worth about $35 mil. Whereas 40,000 options in, say, pets.com wouldn't cover the costs of feeding the mule.
(I don't mean to make light of your argument -- I just thought that last part was kinda ironic.)
"Do you expect me to talk?" "No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!"
Two reasons...
1. The "Reason we're telling the public" -- It's punitive damage. If Microsoft only gives the defendants the money they might have earned anyway, Microsoft really hasn't learned much of a lesson.
Think of it this way... if you cheat somebody out of $50, you get caught, and the only punishment you receive is that you have to give the $50 back, would this really deter you from trying it again in the future? Probably not -- the worse-case scenario is that you have a net profit of zero. But if you had to give the $50 back, plus pay a fee of $200, then you might be more inclined not to try it again. It's the same idea with Microsoft -- except that it needs to be an amount of money that actually hurts them and makes them think, "Gosh. We'd better make sure this doesn't happen again." Hence the $5 billion.
2. The "Real, secret reason" -- Microsoft's a big rich corporation. Juries like taking money from big rich corporations and giving them to normal people. And $5 billion dollars sure would be nice...
"Do you expect me to talk?" "No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!"
I can just picture their bald, white labcoat wearing lawyer hold his pinky up to his mouth as he exclaims "Five Billion Dollars"
Finkployd
Compared to 2.6% of Microsoft's employees? Black employees are less than half as common at Microsoft than they are in the tech industry in general. Given that Microsoft employs ~22,000 people that's actually a pretty significant difference. (It would be less indicative if we were talking about a small company. Ask a statistician.) Is it proof? Nope. Is it suspicious? Definitely.
Oh and to be politically correct I think the term is "African Americans"©
When I was going to school the African Americans CHOOSE to go to a different school© There were very few African Americans in my school, not cause they could not afford to go there, but because they choose to go somewhere else© I don't think that the tech industry is racist as I see MANY people of different races other than white's©
Most African Americans I have meet don't want to go into computers, they go into humanities or business is the most common one©
Oh please stop talking about how repressed you are and this and that© The Hebrews/Jews have had it MUCH worse than the African Americans ever had, and they don't go out killing each other in gang related warefare©
If you really want to help the African Americans start by stop killing each other and work together as a people© Push for education, and push for more African Americans to go into the tech industry©
The real reason that they are not here is that they do not want to be here©
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
Well, obviously that would be the rational way to approach it, but not the only way. The damages they seek are punitive. When I hear that word I hear "puny" but what it of course actually means is "punishment".
In other words, their message to the court is "we're mad, and Microsoft has to be hit where it hurts. They're big and rich so we'd like, uh, 5 billion..."
Translation: "We are shameless and greedy, so why not sue the biggest company around for lots and lots of cash"
Vidi, Vici, Veni
And have you seen the salaries for those atheletes? If I was making that much money, I wouldn't be complaining
really? I mean $150,000 is decent money but it's not going to set you up for life, especially if you only go pro for a few years.
Not many athletes make those $500 million dollar paydays -- Jordan could buy a team if he wanted, no doubt, but your second-round draft pick will never see that kind of cash...
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
They certainly can, and should.
The only point I was making was that most pro athletes don't make obscene amounts of money, just the very top performers...
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Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Funny that with such a high number of athletes that are black, you have to search long and hard to find a head coach or team owner who's black. That's the kind of racism people generally talk about in sports -- its okay for them to PLAY well, we just don't want them up in the clubhouse...
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Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
I've worked in the Toronto area for many years in various tech industries, but primarily the financial industry. I can honestly say that I did not experience any discrimination in terms of peoples' dealings with each other nor in terms of promotion (in my limited world of course). Toronto is a very multi-cultural city and I've worked with most racial and religious backgrounds as well as sexual orientations. And more often than not I have reported to women in management positions.
The only place I've ever seen any discrimination is once you get to the very senior positions in these institutions (not necessarily in technology but overall). Then you'll find a predominance of over 50, white, males running the show.
This is changing however as I look at the tech industry outside of financial institutions. A great many tech startups of 2 and 5 years ago are now large players in the area and the CEO's, CIO's, VP's, partners, etc. are of various racial backgrounds. They have gotten to where they are because the ideas and skills they could contribute were more important than the colour of their skin or their religious beliefs.
Just my two cents.
Now I'm not normally one to defend Microsoft, the Ultimate Source of All That is Evil In the Computer Industry (TM), but give me a break.
First of all, African Americans only make up 12% of the U.S. population, not the 50% or more some people seem to think, even though it might not seem that way if you either A) live in a big city (like I do) or B) watch lots of movies. Secondly, a large portion of those African Americans live in disadvantaged neighborhoods and don't think they have access to education.
BTW--Notice that I didn't say they DON'T have access to education. The reader in doubt is referred to "The Ten Things You Can't Say in America" by Larry Elders, an excellent Libertarian African American gentleman who has a radio show out on the left coast.
In any case, for whatever reasons, the college-educated African American is a rarer bird than one might think. You have to give credit to those who work hard and manage to get their degrees, because they are really a very small percentage of the overall population.
My journal has hot
As a Stanford graduate student, I would say, sadly, that that is not true. Certainly at the graduate level, at least, and probably at the undergraduate as well. People may be accepting once a person has demonstrated competence, but like the original poster hypothesis (and demonstrated for his particular case), a black student is likely to have a "prooving" period that the Asian student, for example, may not be subjected to. This is based only on my personal observations and gut feeling, of course, as I've never discussed it with the black students in any of my engineering classes.
In fact, at Stanford Graduate engineering schools, american students seem to be the minority. These days, most of the students come from countries other than the U.S. I'd say (as a guess) roughly 75% of the students are from China, Taiwan, India, Isreal, Europe, etc. The few black students I have met personally are from African countries, not the U.S. I've been in classes of 30 or more students, where I was the ONLY U.S. student!
I point his out to show that at some schools at least, it is hard to make comparisons of student population ethnicities, withn the surrounding workplace. I assume, with the economy around here being so good, many U.S. students are NOT going to graduate school (since they can make lots of money anyway); the undergrad populations seems to have many more U.S students.
Anyway, my point is that I'd have to agree with the original poster; black students are a minority here, and accepting one as an equal in a group project, for example, won't be as automatic as, say, another asian student.
In fact, as another anecdotal data point, having traveled to South East Asia, and growing up in areas of large asian populations (Hawaii and the Bay Area), I can say that many asians have severe prejudices towards blacks (sorry for the flamebait; my comment implies mainly those who are non-U.S. born). In Thailand, I was asked a couple times by locals I met if black people are all violent, poor, etc. (in the U.S.), or whether I was afraid to live with black people. It seems that having only the U.S. media to go on, that is what many of them perceive. Ironically, that was just before Mike Tyson bit Evander's ear, and it was splashed across the papers throughout the world. I can assume some of these attitudes carry over with all the non-U.S. students (even though they are, without question, extremely intelligent and well educated)
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
I think there is a more serious point to be made here.
While other minority groups (japanese/various asian/indians/bangladorians) are becoming well represented in the CS field, this has not cut over to the african american minority.
In my mind, affirmitive action has hurt this field because it gets people entry level jobs, without forcing them to learn the fundamentals, thus restricting them from rocking as a programer/sys-admin whatever.
We need more people with thoose kind of skills. Is it becaue people don't usually envision a african american programmer the reason why there are not alot? Or is it some other demographic trend?
Before we judge microsoft, lets find out what really happened. The amount asked for is extremly absurd, but adjusting the amount of money by a factor of 100 (5 million instead of 5 billion) is probibly in range. Each person probably walks away with 10x there salary.
This also brings into question when you can fire people. If you are afraid to fire a guy because of his ethnic minority status, they will never hire him in the first place.
But if "you'll get the same kind of cross section of people there that you get anywhere", then you should get the same proportion of blacks that you'll get anywhere. And that doesn't appear to be the case.
Racism?! I find that hard to believe!
Now intelligencism....?
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
>> It seems that the players will be >= 80% black, but certain roles are almost always white, quaterbacks, are almost always white, coachs seem to be nearly 95% white. owners are probably 100% white.
Tell that to Jordan, Isaiah, Magic, Culpepper, King, Banks, Batch, Cunningham, Moon...
>>unfortantly, there arn't to many rich black folks out there.. huh, does this sound racist?, naww, must be my white liberal guilt
no.... its your lack of understanding that in black culture, its more important to play ball, wear the right shoes, and get phat props than to study, work hard, learn to code, build networks, read O'Riley books or other Oreo type things.
Its more important to "be real" than to "act white" for many young blacks.
Fortunately, that stereotype is starting to break down... the kinds of today of all races are starting to see that the mantra of their predesessors is bogus, that its not "selling out" to not gang bang, make babies at 14, and instead stay in school, work hard, and be responsible.
No thanks to the likes of Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Louis Farakhan...
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
I'd not be surprised to find that M$ treats ALL of its employees in that manner.
Yeah... I'm waiting to see the defense on this...
MSLawyer: "Your honor, I am prepaired to show that Microsoft does not descriminate against Blacks. In fact Microsoft discriminates against all its low level employees equally. In FACT, we have recently been involved in a class action suit to this end, where it was proven that Microsoft treats its employees as scum. In view of these facts I move that the court immediately dissmiss these absurd charges."
Judge: "So your saying that because Microsoft treats all of its employees equally as garbage, there is no discrimination based on colour?"
MSLawyer: "Yes your honor."
Judge: "I am ready to render a summary judgement against the Defendent based on the grounds of Absurd Stupidity."
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
I fit many of the qualifyers
<ol>
<li>I live in a poorer neighborhood.</li>
<li>I have undereducated parents.</li>
<li>I go to public high school.</li>
</ol>
<p>Does this mean I am less likely to go to college? And what do these factors have to do with racism?</p>
"People suing over job discrimination can sue for actual damages (lost wages, promotion opportunities, backpay, etc"
So they each could have made $714 million dollars if MS wasn't so racist? Hope they can prove that. If I had 100 lifetimes I doubt I would make that much over all of them combined.
"If you are forced to work a 60 hour week, you should go seek employment elsewhere"
Easy to say 'move on' .. best of luck to anybody out there who can actually thinks they can find a professional IT job with less than 60 hour weeks.
I think you've been lucky. I think most employers, if they have a decent programmer, will try to get as many hours out of that as possible. I could also only work 40-hour weeks if I was just left to do my work, and I would do a good job. But my boss has a "last-minute" attitude. So if delivery is still a few months away, he seems to think "theres still plenty of time" and comes up with a bunch of other things for me to do, that are suddenly higher priority.
I think most employers in the engineering/programming world are like this, but then, I can only speak from experience and what I've heard from others.
Sorry, I misunderstood. My mistake. Who gets the money awarded from punitive damages?
I think their point is to have punishment microsoft feels, not that they lost 5 billion because of microsoft. Just like car manufacturers have to pay kazziollons for their mistakes.
If they would ask for somthing like 50 million, It would be just a scratch in their quarterly report.
signatures pending - ansa@kos.to - (dont mail there)
It seems the general consensus among white, male tech workers is that they belong in the industry. If they are up for a promotion against an equally skilled minority, of COURSE they should get the promotion, because they're automatically more skilled. Because the majority of tech managers are ALSO white, this attitude is perpetuated.
Let's set the record straight: My racial group does not choose to be less educated...we simply don't always have access to the same resources growing up as whites. That can't possibly be understood by someone who's never attended public school in a major city (I'm from Detroit). I took freshman EECS with 3 hundred white guys that had been taking C classes since the 9th grade, and the only exposure I'd had to any form of high-level programming was self-taught. Poor K-12 education == Poor SAT/ACT!= quality higher education. This uneven playing field is the reason for the small numbers of us in the tech industry.
First you complain that racism comes from white people's misguided assumptions, then you argue why those assumptions are true. I don't get the promotion because they think I'm not as good. That's wrong. I'm not as good because I didn't have enough of a chance!!
I'm American Indian. My race has no political power and almost no representation anywhere other than Alchoholics Anonymous meetings. In high school I was ostracized by both white and black groups, and that didn't leave much to choose from. Yes, I'm discriminated against. My name went to the top of most companies hiring list since my race looks very good on their quotas.
Yes, that's right quotas. All the race mongers claim that no one wants to enforce quotas, it being a diry word and all, but here we see the lawyers using a percentage of workforce in a court case. Companies see this and realize that if they are to survive such lawsuits they have to make sure that they have that percentage in the workforce. Hence, quotas.
I went to a 'historically black college'. It was the most pathetic excuse for an educational institution that I had attended (I attended 4 post high schools institutions). Grades were given out, and professors fired for failing students that deserved it. Incompetent 'teachers' were retained because they had once been tight with Martin Luther King. Academic standards were a joke. But everyone who graduated got a job. Why? A black man with a degree is a valuable commodity. They may not ever be promoted, but they are on the roles and help to ensure that the company has a shield against $5B lawsuits.
This is the reason that 'white, male tech workers' feel 'they're automatically more skilled'. They don't know you, but they know the group that you identify yourself with. Since birds of a feather flock together, they assume that you are as pathetic as a large percentage of the people I graduated with. The assumption is that you were given the job to meet a percentage.
If you don't want to be associated with these people, do like I do and lie about your race...a different lie each time someone ask...and don't ever tell the truth...and act like you're upset if someone guesses the truth...keep them guessing, and make sure that they know that you are lying. The point being that you don't let anyone associate you with anyone but yourself. Eventually no one will care about what you are and will start concentrating on who you are.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
That said, aren't damages assigned by the JURY? It's up to them to decide damages, not the plaintiffs. Plus, the Judge can set aside the judgement in favor of a lower amount if need be.
The tech-industry is NOT just the Internet. There are a lot of sectors in the tech-industry, and the internet is a fairly small part of it. Everyone seems to have the opinion that if you're high-tech, that means you're a dot.com, and that's just not accurate.
That's probably why the NASDAQ as a whole tanks when a dot.com goes under, even thought many companies in the exchange don't do "business" over the internet.
Of course, I wouldn't expect a pasty white boy to know the difference. :)
who can pass as white, most people are incredibly stupid when it comes to race.
I'm in my 40s, and interracial marriages were very rare when I was born. When people learn that my father was Chinese, you can see all the cognitive pieces drop into place: you must be so smart because..., you are good at academic things because...
It's pretty insulting that people attribute my accomplishments exclusively to my dad's genes. There's also a bunch of negatives too, like the assumptions that Asians are not creative or do not have leadership qualties. Fortunately, most folks are over this by the time they find out my parentage.
Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that stereotypes are so deeply rooted in human consciousness that we probably will never be free of them. The best we as individuals can do is, over time, to raise the image of our race with positive examples, and to be a counterexample against the negative stereotypes; and to question the assumptions we make about all people, not just based on race but other kinds of categories (gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, accent, geekiness).
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
"More likely" doesn't mean squat in an individual case. Joe White Boy who's from a poor family might not give a damn about how anomalous or improbable he seems to you. What you have expressed is simply a stereotype, not morally different from any other stereotype. Judge Joe White Boy on what Joe White Boy does, and don't assume anything because he's white.
Slashdot - News for Herds. Stuff that Splatters.
The lawyers cite statistics showing that just 2.6 percent of Microsoft's approximately 22,000 employees, and just 1.6 percent of its 5,155 managers, are black. "The numbers illustrate that Microsoft is guilty of some of the most egregious discrimination in corporate America," Hoffler said.
;).
The numbers don't illustrate a gawdamn thing!
Where are the numbers for what should be the qualification for managers, like education/experience? It could be that it so happens that the black people that M$ is employing have a lower educational/experience level on average.
Yeah yeah, I'll prawly be flamed for that statement, and I really don't mean to suggest that black people have lower educational/experience levels. I'm just saying that we are talking pretty small numbers here, so the differences shown by the lawyers may be explained by some other factors than racism.
What baffles me is, say these people where making $100K a year, I don't really understand why they want 10.000 years of compensation. It's not like they missed out on that many years because of M$.
I remember that M$ was the first company that I saw to use the term 'equal opportunity employer'. It would be sad if that wasn't true. And obviously the claims have to be taken seriously and be investigated. I think the $5B doesn't do a lot of good in terms of public opinion tho.
Anyways, working in Sillicon Valley, I feel our industry is one of the greatest because of it's lack of discrimination. You simply wouldn't get a damn thing done if you are discriminating. It's like practically everyone has something that (s)he could be discriminated for
I really hope it stays that way, and all I can say that other industries should take the hi-tech industry as an example.
Breace
I won't quote - please go back to the parent post and read it in full. It deserves your attention.
Now, the whole problem is precisely this: Affirmative Action. Affirmative Action ensures that blacks will never be treated equally. It's entirely valid for co-workers to suspect you might be in the office because of AA, or for other students to consider whether AA might be what put you in school.
So long as there are government-mandated percentages, no minority will ever have a fighting chance of getting the dignity it deserves.
Hi. I don't understand the American legal system when it comes to suing people and companies. It seems like you can sue for any amount of money that you like!
yeah you can sue anyone for any amount. it really doesnt mean anything unless you win. you have to look at what they are suing for. one guy states that he was passed up for promotions which would have lead to stock options. if he has been with ms since the early 80's i could see how he could have missed the opportunity to get a crapload of money.
the good ole' boy system is still in full effect. not so much racism, but rather hiring your friends. the only difference now is that it is called networking. i have personally seen people passed up for promotions and those who had relatives/friends in athoratative positons get them.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
-- john
Honestly, in this labor market I have a hard time believing that anyone with *PROPER QUALIFICATIONS* would have trouble finding employment.
We look all over the world for employees, so I don't think that the local city demographics necessarily define the ethnic breakdown for software companies.
In the development side of software shops now, it's sometimes the 'white male' that's a minority. But nobody's worried about that, except that we need more H1B visas.
Technology-enabled companies are probably the *least* discriminatory.
fyi, as a canadian it would be very difficult for you to comprehend just how fucked our school system is down here.
... if enough people were somehow denied enough stock options over a long enough period of time, it could add up. but my understanding is that everyone gets the most options upon hire (with a 4 year vesting schedule) and that any later bonus options would be significantly smaller. moreover, any recent MS options would be underwater.
if you live in an affluent neighborhood, your children attend schools that are comparable to $10,000 a year private schools. the schools will be well funded and the results are excellent: 90% or more of the students will go on to a 4 year college, many of which are Very Good Schools (tm).
if you live in a poor neigborhood, the schools may be little more than a means of keeping kids off the streets so the seinor citizens can do their shopping without harrassment. the schools will be grossly under funded and ill-equipped to deal with the problems that come with a student body that lives in severe poverty. for example, young children tend to be dicipine problms when they don't have adaquate food. the schools may even need metal detectors. most of the students won't go on to college, and those that do will usually go to community college.
while there may be cases where affermative action would give preference to someone who is not the most qualified, remember that "not the most qualified" != "incompetent". you can have a pool of applicants, some of which are qualified and some of which are not. within the group of qualified applicants, only one can be the best, but is it always important to get the very best applicant? we usually do a cost benefit analysis where we may opt for the 2nd best drywaller if he/she is cheaper, but may opt for the very best heart surgeon we can possibly get.
schools have always been willing to admit students who don't have the best acedemic criteria if they are the child of an alumni or a great athlete or come from a really interesting background or are the child of a VIP. this is common and acepted practice and no one screams at the injustice of these students getting spaces that could be filled my smarter kids, even when these "less qualified" applicants truly are incompetent (although most schools won't admit anyone if they feel that the person truly can not do the work). Just something to bear in mind when you hear all the shrill rhetoric.
btw, i don't know the details of the MS case, but it would take more than a statistical analysis of the racial makeup of the company to mount a successful suit. 5 billion sounds high
- bridgette
I find that quite a few of their complaints aren't discrimination based on color...they're things that Microsoft does to ALL of their low-level employees.
This is a political technique. You have to be a member of a PC "minority" to enguage in it though.
The other part of it would be to label anyone pointing out that Microsoft does these things to all employees "racist".
Either way, there's no analysis of the available pool of workers vs. workers hired so I don't know how much of a case they've got.
Does the analysis need to be against "available pool of workers" or against "general population". The former making more sense than the latter, but since when were lawyers logical?
So we shouldn't be saying "Oh, we screwed black people for decades and decades, let's give them a free ride for a while".
Especially since at best this won't help the people concerned, at worst it will create a group of people dependant on "affirmative action".
You can't end discrimination by mandating discrimination, however noble the original motives might be. Make it easier for people in a specific group to gain qualifications and the qualifications of all those people become suspect, including those held by the people who didn't need the "help" in the first place. Which is one of the things which the original poster mentioned.
Also it's quite possible for any klind of racial quota system (which is how AA ends up working) will make the real racists look good. Since they can find enough token "yes men" to ensure their work force has the right ethnic makeup to never be sued. Remember a racist has a "head start" when it comes to knowing how to select employees by race...
>I'm not trying to be a bigot, but in sports I think it's almost detrimental to be white nowadays.
I don't think you are being a bigot but there are some misconceptions about race in sports. For starters, it's hard to say whether or not it's better to be of any race whatsoever in anything. That's dangerous territory. Modern cultural criticism has shown that racism/sexism/heterosexism, etc is just as damaging to the dominant group as it is to the subordinate group (check out _Gender Trouble_ by Judith Butler and numerous works by Michel Foucault). Furthermore, can you point to one instance where a player experienced reverse discrimination?
As far as owning teams goes the overwhelming majority of teams are owned by white men. In basketball and football this should seem odd since so many of the players are Black. Coaching staffs are usually predominantly white as well, though this is changing.
I am not in a position to say whether or not there is "reverse discrimination" in sports or an advantage to particular races. A very well-written article in The Village Voice actually addresses this issue in the context of Venus and Serena Williams (http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0045/noel.shtm l).
I am, however, in a position to say that people should back up their assumptions and actually investigate them rather than perpetuating these half-truths.
-a
"The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Roger Brinner
For starters, they make you use crappy in-house software.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
The lawyers cite statistics showing that just 2.6 percent of Microsoft's approximately 22,000 employees, and just 1.6 percent of its 5,155 managers, are black...
the very first thing that popped into my head was...what are the actual race demographics in the Redmond area? I mean, if the pool of employable minorities in the local area is 1%, then Microsoft should be lauded, not sued!
SuperID
The idea that the adaption (via selection) of populations of people to different environments may have included different proportioning of fast twitch vs. slow twitch muscle fibers is controvertial, but seems to still be within the realm of legitimate speculation.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Just one quick point...There is no such thing as reverse discrimination. Racism is Racism, no matter if it is black on white, white on black or blue on green. It is racism.
You're right, it's not a race issue. It's a class /socio-economic status issue. It just seems conservatives like to label is at a race issue so they can make the obvious argument that minority preferences are just as bad as racism in the first place. As conservatives clearly point out by picking well-to-do, business-owning, minorities, as examples, it's all about class, not the color of your skin. Unfortunately, there is a great correlation between being a minority and being poor. So we shouldn't be saying "Oh, we screwed black people for decades and decades, let's give them a free ride for a while". We should instead be observing that, despite a healthy sized middle class, there is an increasing polarization and gap between the extremely wealthly and the extremely poor in this country. The salary gap between head of company and lowest worker has been growing in orders of magnitude in this century. For the wealthiest country in the world we have a startling amount of poverty, child poverty, poor education, and poor health care. All these factors filter up (poor, unhealthy, uneducated people, regardless of skin color, have a hard time moving up). We can't just slap an affirmitive action bandaid on the top to hide the symptoms. We have to heal the disease.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
If being white means you suck, relatively, then you deserve not to be hired. Nobody wants to watch a whole bunch of white guys play a game poorly.
But anyway, I think sports figures get insanely exorbitant amounts of money, regardless of their race. I just can't fathom giving somebody an amount of money larger than some small countries' GNP, just to run around a field or bounce a ball. Only in the USA.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
And have you seen the salaries for those atheletes? If I was making that much money, I wouldn't be complaining.
I feel that the amount of miniorities in Microsoft compared to "white anglo saxon males" is because simply; there aren't that many minority techies. Myself being (afro-american) I haven't really found any racism in the tech industry. I'm 20, and am the system administrator for a couple big name web sites but I've been using Unix ,Solaris, Linux (since 1.2.13 Dec 94). So for me maybe I haven't noticed it as much but alot of my "Afro-American" friends aren't really into computers; why? Some don't own one and the ones that do aren't really into "techie" realms. Some do web design and others just chat. I think that the void will change as the industry starts to even out.
As a black male I think the lawsuit is for money and thats about it. If these people really felt as if there was a glass ceiling at Microsoft this suit would of came about long before now. However I don't know their individual situations and it would be stupid of me to say that it isn't possible.
If it were me though I'd probably sue, to get some extra money so I can buy a lambhorghini diablo 6. More power to them, everyones suing Microsoft anyway why not its own employees? =)
As for slashdot; I hope someone does something and does something fast. It is honestly going down the tubes. I'd recommend the powers at be stop catering to non-shalant "jump on the bandwagon" users and cater to the audience that has been here and hopefully will continue to read and submit stories to slashdot; Amen.
Well, it all depends a bit on the sport in question. A read an interesting article in Runner's World Magazine several years ago that examined the dominance of several east African countries in running events. It seems that persons from this area of the world have a rather unique shape to some of their leg muscles which appears to be an advantage in running and jumping.
It seems fairly apparent that skin color is not the only genetic difference between people from different areas of the world. For example, I would be rather surprised to see a large increase in the number of Asian players in the NBA or NFL despite the population of in the US being made up of an increasingly large Asian minority. Is this because the NBA and NFL are racist organizations? No, it's because persons of Asian descent are usually shorter and slimmer than persons of African or European descent. This puts them at a disadvantage on the basketball court or football field, however it's not a particular disadvantage on a baseball diamond and we are seeing an increasing number of Asians in the Major League.
_____________
I don't want free as in beer. I just want free beer.
And what makes you think that Indian or Asian managers are less likely to discriminate against African-Americans than "whites"?
Kook9 out.
No, you haven't been allowed to say that in at least 12 years, as Jimmy The Greek found out when he was fired by CBS in 1988 for saying that blacks were better athletes because of genetics.
Well, Microsoft's attrition rate (9.6%) is about half the industry average (18.1%), so I think that speaks for itself.
I am quite interested to see how the attrition rates at Micro$oft and other companies hold up with their share prices dropping so much. A big reason many of the folks I know at Micro$oft stayed was the ol' "Golden Handcuffs" - every year they had so many more shares & options, etc.
Does anyone know where we can get access to attrition rate information for Micro$oft and other companies?
I left my body to science, but I'm afraid they've turned it down...
What bugs me is that so many people can't see that this is racist. Because there was an explicitly racist period in our history and the damages done were never properly redressed, there are disproportionately many disadvantaged African Americans in this country. To ignore this status quo ("Hey! We're not racist, we're just in it for the money!") is to perpetuate it, and that is an act of racism.
Now, the way class action suits normally happen is that *some* of the alleged victims, or a party representing the victims launch the suit, but if they win, the money is split among *all* the victims.
So that means it isn't just the 5 victims who get the $5 billion, but rather the money is split among *all* black employees at Microsoft.
When you think of a racist what is the first image that comes to mind? A mean ugly middle aged white man, right? You hardly think of a black, indian or korean racist when you think of racism, specially in the workplace. Its always the bad white suit/manager that only promotes his white boys and enslaves the rest of the employees. That is sad. That image is a prime example of exactly what racism is today. And I am a racist. And so are you!
Racism has changed shape. Today it would be hard to find a white man that hated all african americans or asians. Almost as hard as it would be to find a black man that hated all whites. What percentage of black men alive today were enslaved? Does that justify old school racism? I don't know... I've never been enslaved. But I can understand their point of view.
Old school racism, as I called it, is the immediate judging and sentencing of people, or categorizing them in your head and hating them for being who they were born as, not hating them for how they act. Today racism has changed. Even racism in prison is no longer based on hatred, but more on self defense and protection via gangs. We treat people differently based on how they act and a little what they look like, no longer the color of their skin but probably more how they dress.
Why do we judge people and categorize them? Does it really matter? You don't have to like everyone. You don't have to talk to everyone or be friendly to everyone. If you think someone is racist ignore them. They won't hurt you or say bad things to you or about you. They are probably just scared of you. But don't call them racist, because in doing that you are being hypocritical. How would you know if they are racist. Maybe they just don't like YOU!
just a thought.
According to Yahoo
Mmmm.. Donuts
Do you even know what disenfranchisement is ? I may be stupid, but you're even more so. You yourself used the word 'deserve.' So are you implying that the asian students who hypothetically will be nudging their caucasian peers out of the running with presumably better marks and more extracurricular activities don't 'deserve' to go to the higher tier schools ?
Is this a joke ? Do you honestly believe that legacy schools like Yale and Harvard don't favor the progeny of alums or less academically qualified athletes ? And you completely ignore the pocket book factor which trims the pool of applicants quite a bit.
True, the official race caps ended with the 80s, but if you're so ready to believe discrimination (via relictual AA) works against you, why do you find it so hard to believe it works the other (original) way too ? I'm not saying I agree with affirmitive action. Like others, I believe it's the wrong bandaid for too complex a problem, but to claim asians (or other minorities for that matter) unfairly benefit from such a system is ludicrous. Nationwide they _are_ a minority, and I doubt you can complain about them not being academically qualified. Also, financial aid is based on _need_. Most caucasians applying for college tend to be more well off than their non-caucasian peers. Blame not being dirt poor for your loan woes, I didn't get squat either.
Well, people don't generally beat up girls in predominantly white (I was 1 of about 5 non-whites in my class from K-12), upper-middle class (snotty spoiled rich kid) schools...but for you to assume I've "never been truly discriminated against" is just laughable. Sorry, but I find it hard to be sympathetic with someone whose group is still in power complaining about losing power. I'm not saying you can't experience racism/bigotry because you're white, anyone can which universally sucks. But don't expect much sympathy if you declare that you agree with someone who says people who have to cope with being hated like to perpetuate being hated. Since you've experienced discrimination yourself, would _you_ want to continue being discriminated against just to get a few crumbs of financial aid, or would you try to go for the whole pie and try to level the playing field for a better standard of living overall ?
And what exactly is it that freaks you out so much about being one of two white people in a store ? Welcome to the life of most non-white people in America.
I find it ironic that some of the presumably caucasian posters here complain about non-whites being paranoid about racism, yet when they find themselves in the same situation suddenly it's an earth-shattering occurence.
P.S. Anonymous cowards don't 'deserve' responses. There are quite a few nice pastures in the Central Valley if you want to be an anonymous sheep.
"A variety of societal reasons" is right. Ultimately, we are going to continue to see instances of racism until society as a whole changes. And of course there's no simple answer because there's no single cause. Many women and many people of color don't make into the tech industry or the sciences because they are actively discouraged all their lives by peers as well as educators, they receive poor schooling, they simply can't afford college, etc.
And, look, to hold up Asians as some sort of model minority (Asians=honorary whites) is disingenuous at best, since it ignores a plethora of factors. Consider the fact that most (certainly not all, though) Asian Americans resident in the United States are 1st or 2nd generation residents. That makes a big difference for, again, a variety of reasons. Many Asian immigrants arrive as members of the middle class already and don't face as much of an uphill battle as, say, many African-Americans. On the other hand, consider the fact that many Asian Americans don't fall under these circumstances, and, like other people of color, don't have many economic opportunities and face (and have faced throughout history) withering discrimination at the cultural as well as personal level. I mention that because many folks like to hold up "the Asian example" as proof that racism no longer exists. Not true.
Okay, I wanted this to be more coherent and better supported, but it's time for lunch.
(Incidentally, I don't think anyone reasonable believes that MSFT has a corporate racist policy, but it's plausible to think that certain managers discriminate against African-Americans, whether out of consciously held racist beliefs or otherwise, and if it's true, guess what? Microsoft is responsible for its managers' actions.)
Why don't you learn how to read? After the quoted sentence, I said,. "and punitive damages". Punitive damages can be of any amount the jury feels is justified to punish the offense, as opposed to actual damages or statutory damages (legislated fines).
Obviously, punitive damages. People suing over job discrimination can sue for actual damages (lost wages, promotion opportunities, backpay, etc), and punitive damages (ow).
That said, how is this insightful? How many posts can get moderated to 4+ for screaming "$5B??!#" incredulously?
And surely if Microsoft's practice is worse than that at other companies then those employees could find work at a company that would realise their true worth.
---- SIGFPE
C|Net had a video interview with Wooly Gary (the attorney defending the plaintifs). This that interview, Gary makes it clear that the percentages are not enough to say "discrimination", but that the people there have testimony that their white counterparts do the same jobs but get more promotions and bonus. A woman told that she will never get promoted out of her cubicle, etc. There are actual cases of discrimination, in addition to the skewed proportion of workers.
-no broken link
If you think about it, its like saying that Microsoft have made $5 billion out of these people, and that these people have lost $5 billion because of Microsoft. Maybe these are exceptionally talented individuals, but surely they should only ask for how much they have actually lost?
in lawsuits like this it's 1,000,000 for actual salary injustness. and 4,990,000,000 in personal (mental, ego, whatever) lose.
The legal justification is that if you "stick it to the corperation" big time, they'll actually change there policy. the jurors (spelling?) will see a large rich corperation that can offord it on one side, and vicumized people on the other, so they might not care how much the penalty is.
-Jon
this is my sig.
Microsoft likes to really grill job applicants. Applicants get interviewed by multiple people, many of whom are just ordinary developers such as I was. The HR department gave us a little seminar on how to conduct ourselves when grilling applicants; there were many subjects we were not to ask about or discuss, and race was one of them.
(Another was "Do you have kids?" While this might be intended as a friendly question, we were told this could be used as a lever to sue Microsoft and us personally if the applicant was not hired, reasoning goes like this: they asked if I have kids and I said yes, therefore they assumed I would not be available to work really long hours, therefore they didn't hire me, therefore I was discriminated against because I have kids. I'm pretty sure that actually happened at least once for them to be so nervous about it...)
Microsoft's recruiting literature is loaded with pictures of happy Microsoft employees, and about half of the people in the pictures are minorites, some of them black. While I was there, I worked with people from India and Pakistan, Asians, white folks, black folks, females, a few queer folks I knew about, and a few pagans I knew about. I didn't see as many black folks as the recruiting brochures might imply, but on the other hand I saw a higher percentage of black folks than I generally see walking around in shopping malls nearby.
It is inevitable that with so many people working for it, Microsoft has to have someone racist somewhere in the chain. But to claim institutionalized racism at Microsoft and ask for $5 billion? I don't see it.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
I'll give you this advice for free: When you have this much resentment and hostility towards whites, it is externally obvious and visible, within 30 seconds of your talking to a white person. In other words, the person you are talking to can sense you don't like them. And once they sense this, they are not going to be comfortable with you, they are not going to want to be around you, work with you, talk to you.
If you want to be treated like everyone else, then act like everyone else. Get rid of the chip on your shoulder, rid yourself of hate and jealousy for those who "had it easy". Talk to whites like they are YOUR equals, not some group that is "out to get" you.
Cause you know what? 99% of whites don't care what color you are. But 100% of whites can sense hostility, and will react to it in some way- fight or flight.
Your wallet stays open. Our source remains closed. We are MSFT
That's what they will get, after the lawyers take their fair share.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Bill Gates just gave a billion or so bucks to the NAACP, right? Such an organization is built on the assumption that special barriers exist. Bill must have thought these barriers exist elsewhere, Texaco, Shoney's, older low tech places. Surely Bill could have fixed the problems in his own company without their help.
Wrong! Most of these suits are just so much judicial extortion.
Suck it up Bill!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
You haven't looked at a software EULA recently, have you?
Now hold on a sec. The lead attorney on the case was on FOX News lastnight (Neil Cavotto's show) and guess what? Besides haveing already done this successfully to CocoCola, GM, and a few other companies the firm kicks out over 25% of thier fees to minority charities and the like. The attorney seemed to be cogent as to the real issues at hand and guess what? He is Black and he made his way to the top the hard way. He worked in the cane fields in south florida to pay for his education. I have seen cane workers doing thier job and imho it is one of the most labor intensive back breaking jobs a person could do.I don't particularly agree with the basis of the suit and the $5 bil they are asking for. The other companies that this firm has done this to have all knuckled under and settled out of court. I think this is tantamount to legalized extortion because mostly these companies settle to avoid having thier names in the media with the word 'RACIST' attached to it. Trial by media is what is really at stake here for them. The damage to thier brand is name very high and even if they win they still lose. For once I am on M$ side: they have the money and power to really take this case on. Worst case scenario for them is to lose out on some sales in the US as globaly no other country will likely even hear about this case never mind care as they all know our letigious society is sue happy. One potential benefit people should realize here though is that fighting this will hurt the M$ name and potentially send more folks to the linux world. As long as there is a requirement or quota in place (like affirmative action) there will never be an incentive for minorities of any kind to really try to excel in the work place for a multitude of reasons. Primarily, its easier for a company to fire a non-minority and not fear repercussions (short of former employees going postal, i digress...) via legal action. Second, the quota system hurts them by promoting employees who don't deserve the promotion over those who do because a particular group is not represented in promoted positions. When a person is promoted for the wrong reasons (not skills or performance) this has a negative effect on the company as a whole and eventually will snowball.
Prospecting Stinks. Stop Wasting Time on Cold Calling.
I can't speak for Microsoft but I know that where I am employed that there is no problem. I work in an office of about 13 - 15 people. The majority are asian but we also have whites, blacks, etc. Everyone is treated witht he same amount of respect. It's actually a great environment to be in.
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Rob Flynn
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Rob Flynn
Pidgin
hahah! The only thing that I can say is, Amen! I have an uncontrollable urge to go rent 'Office Space'
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Rob Flynn
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Rob Flynn
Pidgin
very sad when anything negative happening to non-whites is called racism, and makes them rich, while real racism and discrimination is not only tolerated but encouraged as long as the skin color of the victim is acceptable.
________
Actually, the discrimination has more to do with the management positions. Not too many african american head coaches in the NFL (dennis green at Minnesota is the only one I can think of right now), only a couple hispanic and black managers in baseball. Same with the NBA. As you go higher up, into positions such as General Manager, or any sort of business operations, the amount of minorities are even less. Basically, most of the time that people are talking about racism in sports, its about the fact that the managerial positions dont reflect the racial balance of the players in the league.
"My head hurts, My feet stink, and I dont love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett
It also sounds like this person pursuing the lawsuit might be kind of a jerk. "I didn't get what I deserve; therefore, I am going to sue for way more money than I would ever make at MS!" If they are a jerk, then I could understand why they got passed over for promotion. Promotions not only depend upon skill level and experience, but also on interpersonal skills, knowing the right people, and being in the right place at the right time. Maybe this guy just pissed of the wrong person at the wrong time and sees it as "racial discrimination".
-----------------
I was faced every day with fellow students who were SO SURE that they were smarter than me, and professors who didn't think that I deserved to be here, assuming that I was only here because of Affirmative Action (I've got that in the workplace as well).
:)
Well, if you take the chip off your shoulder for just a second here and look at this objectively, the effect of affirmative action more often than not IS that the affirmativized individuals are qualitatively inferior to their peers, so this is not a racist presumption, this is a rational presumption.
So it seems to me that the obvious thing for you Americans to do here is dump affirmative action, all it does is reinforce stereotypes when it promotes the incompetent and call in to question the abilities of those that are competent when it doesn't, and fix your schools so that poorer people of WHATEVER race can compete equitably with people who get a decent education. Now wouldn't that make a whole whack more sense?
'Course, I'm in Canada where we have schools that don't suck so I may be being a trifle naive about just how utterly fucked up the American system is, so please don't flame me TOO hard if this is a bit too logical for Americans to be able to handle
Hi. I'm a person from a non-US country desperate to get karma by exploiting the 'I'm from a different country/you americans are so wacky' meme!
... it wouldn't work if it wasn't true, would it? :)
Hey, I'm capped and I keep right on using that one
I have to agree it has long been common knowledge that low level types get treated like dirt. But the tech fields do make a easy target for this kind of thing. For whatever reasons most people working at any tech firm are going to tend to be white and male or h1b visa types. Therefore it is very easy to claim that they are behind the curve in the race area. There may or may not be more that the firms can do about this but I don't think it is really their fault. Also keep in mind m$ has *very* deep pockets and are kind of hated by alot of people. I don't at the moment see alot of substance to this one, but with more info my mind could change.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
As for "Blacks are naturally better athelets than whites" I think it's a bunch of bunk. Take a look at World soccer, rugby or cricket leagues. Or even baseball. Are Cubans more "naturally" more athletic just because a large number of them excel in baseball? Are Indians more "naturally" athletic because they excel at cricket? No. Its because its entrenched in their particlar (sub)culture. Sports participation tend to be more influenced by socio-economics.
If you don't have anything nice to say, say it often.
- Ed the Sock
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Actually, I would say thats not true for several reasons. Of the major four sports in the US (basketball, football, baseball and hockey) most of the people that control the teams at a higher level are white from the owners all the way down to the coaches.
So while the mix of races in the players themselves is closer to equal (except, as you mentioned, in hockey), the people who control the purse strings and run the show are almost exclusively white, and I'm sure this has lead to more racism than is apparent to outsiders.
Do you have Linux and a DotPal? Click here now!
Microsoft's policies always reminded me of the worst in Steven Seigal movies... It's him against the world, and even his closest partners are like wolves under his pecking order.
Look at the bundling agreements, the EULAs, the cryptic product key codes, etc. They regard us as guilty until proven innocent. When employees, OEMs, VARs, and especially customers are viewed as adversaries, what do you expect? It's not hard to prove Microsoft takes advantage of as many as they can... But it's hard to prove driscimination when they're abusing everyone!
Okay, so this is different from normal business practices how? And since he left Microsoft, doesn't that make his claim on discrimination moot, as he chose to leave?
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
Yes, a random sampling of college applicants will show blacks and hispanics to be less qualified than whites, but that's because they come from broken school districts that are all fucked up and run more like jails than schools, and staffed by teachers who were transferred there as a "disciplinary action" for screwing off on their job at a better school, or are in the poor school district until they "build up enough seniority" to be able to transfer to teach at their choice school.
Fix the academic problems in primary and secondary schools, and by the time the kids get to college, no one will need differing admissions standards based on race.
Racial quotas or lessened acceptance standards for minorities is a band-aid solution. It's like turning up the stereo louder in your car so you don't hear the water pump squealing anymore. You're just (1) masking the problem, (2) not fixing it, and (3) headed for real disaster down the road.
When I interned at Microsoft in the summer of '99, I received a junkmail flyer about the Seattle school system. They had a racial breakdown on the flyer and, if memory serves correctly, blacks only represented 2% of the student population. I admit that my memory's not the best (and I might be misremembering details; it's possible it was a flyer for a private school), but I do remember such a low number sticking out in my mind.
I tried to dig out the appropriate 2000 census figures, but had trouble navigating the census site. I did, however, manage to find some 1990 census figures mentioned in http://www.cityofseattle.net/seattle/spd/stratpln/ ch2.htm, which indicate that blacks represented 10% of the Seattle population a decade ago.
2.6% still strikes me as rather low, but I honestly couldn't tell you how much of that is something Microsoft-specific, how much of that is Seattle-specific, how much of that is the IT field in general, and so forth.
Chuck D could ask the same questions of hip-hop. Why is it so predominantly a "black" art form? Is it racism or just the makeup and backgrounds of the individuals that make up the group? It just so happens that hip-hop is an expression of a culture that is largely non-white.
Engineering is largely the sport of white males. There are certainly many Asians and Indians represented, so I don't think it's purely a race thing. The problem with geeks is that they are not the types likely to reach out to any group that is not like themselves. Is this racism? I think it is more the introverted nature of geeks. If anything the geek love of knowledge and new ideas makes them more able to bridge the race gap. You just have to figure out how to get these divergent groups together to be able to share the resource of these ideas.
The real question is not about Microsoft but why black males are so underrepresented in engineering across the board. What is it about the culture and economic situations that make this so. This is where the real problem lies and where any solutions will come from.
Uh, you must mean reverse discrimination right? Clearly there are no absence of blacks in most of the major sports (except for ice hockey). I'm not trying to be a bigot, but in sports I think it's almost detrimental to be white nowadays.
Look at their front/back offices. Few coaches are black, few, if any, owners are black, etc, etc. And except for the lucky few major stars, most of the players (who are minorities) are used/abused for a couple of years and then let go for a younger, cheaper player of equal ability. This happens especially often in football, where most rookies get $150-$200k per year, and players with 3+ years of experience have a minimum of $300k or so. Doesn't make sense to keep those guys around.
So you let them go without any sort of safety net, and hire your white buddy for the managing/coaching job. These guys have gone through HS and colege with football as their meal ticket and have no other skills. Now they have to pick up and start over from nothing at 25-30 years old.
That's unfortunate. It's race-related since so few of the minorities get a chance to be involved in sports off the field. And it's not reverse discrimination. People love a white star, but they aren't excited to see a black coach.
The lawyers have used percentages to justify their claims (2.6% employed, 1.6% in management). As others will probably mention, this means nothing, unless you compare it to the percentage of black employees in the tech world in general. As many of you may be aware, U.S. minorities are under-represented in the tech world, below their percentage in the population. This is the so-called digital divide.
(Forget for a moment those working under H1-B or green cards, since it is questionable whether management could say, look at all these foriegn-born minorities, some in management! We're not racist! It could equally support the claim that management likes indentured servitude)
Now, why is this the case? We all say that we are in a performance-based industry, where the best rise to the top. But why is it this way? I say that one factor in how far you go in the industry is how early you were exposed to tools of the trade. For my part, I had a computer and modem ($2000 or so at the time) when I was 10 or so. I also was given a C++ compiler ($500 or so), my dad had a fairly complete computer library ($500 or so), and I got help purchasing books in subjects that interested me.
I know that when I reached college, many of the first-year CS courses were too basic for my needs, but I know many who struggled. It is my assertion that someone who has studied computers at an early age will get more out of college when he or she gets there, no matter the natural talent, and that some may be unable to complete a CS course without prior knowledge.
So, in my opinion, one of the pre-requisites for doing well in the IT world is early exposure, which is fairly expensive, but within the middle-class household's budget - if the parents believe that it is important. So, the IT world will probably look like society in general - rich kids at the top (including those from other countries), and the poor mostly left out.
Do I have a solution? Not really. Microsoft (i believe) once had a mission statement of a computer in every home. They are doing their best by making a lowest-common denominator operating system, as well as making huge contributions to non-profits that are trying to get computer access for the poorer folks. Hopefully, these efforts will come to light during the trial, and be expanded.
Maybe there should be a social project to make cheap computers (Pentium 100, or 250, or something that is now cheap and easy to make), with Linux or BSD pre-installed, so that poorer folks can jump on board. If they get cheap enough, maybe we can even have a public subsidy (maybe a 1% tax on broadband services to pay for them). Of course, that smells of big government and socialism. But capitalism just seems to be making it worse, by only looking for candidates availible today (H1-B), rather than doing something to cultivate candidates 10 years from now.
Sorry, had to rant since I think this is a more important issue than "Does Microsoft Disciminate?"
For an interesting insight into how perceptions can be shattered, read Jon Entine's book Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid to Talk About It. After I finish with our back-end coding project, I'm going to review a sports book a month at TOTK.com Sports. Entine's book is first on my list.
I've appreciated all the comments from my black friends here on /. on this issue. I think they're making the white folks think on this some. -g- Growing up in Mississippi, I've seen racism, and it ain't pretty. But I saw it in Ohio, too, and it was more oppressive there [in Dayton's suburbs] because of the paucity of non-Europeans.
The only beef that I have ever had with AA has been the fact that it is only a temporary solution. AA attempts to fix the end-product of generations of discrimination by giving opportunity to the disadvantaged after the fact. This is fine to an extent, but at some point, you have to accept two things:
As with any problem, it is much better to fix root causes than to try to make amends on end products. If you start building code and watch bugs from the beginning, you build better code. As a society, we should work to build better people by providing quality education along the entire educational track, focusing on improving standards and giving assistance to the youngest among us, regardless of socioeconomic status.
And yeah, there's racism in sports, people. Consider Scot Pollard's hair and Allen Iverson's. With Pollard, most folks think, "Dude, this guy's got style." With the Answer, most folks think, "Dude, this guy's a thug." Yet we don't know diddly shit about either one really.
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-- Geof F. Morris
But I'm betting that you've noted that the way you fight this type of racism--the personal, prejudice-based sort--is person by person. It's like the old saw about saving starfish: you saved that one.
It's the same way with me when I work hoops camps with inner city kids--they don't think a short fat white guy can ball. I can, to a certain degree, and once they realize that, they have fun with me. I'll ignore the fact, though, that the kids routinely beat me off the dribble.
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-- Geof F. Morris
I was faced every day with fellow students who were SO SURE that they were smarter than me, and professors who didn't think that I deserved to be here, assuming that I was only here because of Affirmative Action (I've got that in the workplace as well).
I am all for the completely fair treatment of all humans... thus I am against affirmative action, which promotes one group over another based solely upon unimportant criteria. And here is yet another reason why I'm against it!
This is the price minorities must now pay for promoting affirmative action (the majority of minorities support aa). Yes, you get better access to jobs and schools than before, but you bring this stigma onto yourself that you're perhaps not qualified for the position.
It's a trade-off, and a poor one.
At least before affirmative action, if someone saw a minority in a high-level classroom or job, they knew they had earned it (and then some). Now you have people that naturally hesitate, because of affirmative action.
-thomas
(A member of the HUMAN race.)
"And like that
So that big businesses could hire huge, expensive, unstoppable armies of lawyers, knowing that the risk of losing will stop any lawsuit, frivolous or not.
Look at it from the other angle. You're a tiny company, and a huge competitor comes along and decides to bury you in a frivolous lawsuit (patent infringement, trademark infringement, whatever). In a libertarian society, as long as you are RIGHT and win the case, you don't have to be robbed of all the money spent defending you. It is therefore less likely that you will be sued in the first place.
In regards to your view, either you're going to sue a company, or you're not going to sue a company. Whether or not they have a huge team of lawyers that will defeat your lawsuit is beside the point. You will not bring the case to court if you don't want to risk paying the cost of the defendent upon losing the case. Obviously their would need to be reasonable limits to how much the defendent can be reimbursed, but it's a hell of a lot better than the current system, where a huge corporation can bury somebody with no risk whatsoever.
-thomas
"And like that
with the idea behind the lawsuit, but is the amount justified? 5 billion dollars divided 7 ways comes out to ~$714,285,714.28/person. If this were any other company, would the amount be as large, comparitively? Even if you looked at it on scale, this is still a large sum.
How Jaded Are You?
No latinos? Where the heck are you writing from, Maine? Latinos are all over the place in High Tech, particularly in SV. Everywhere I've worked out here there are latino admins, coders, network gurus. Does the name Hector Ruiz even ring a bell with you? (Pres. of AMD)
As I've said before, the opportunity is here. If people are stigmatized then odds are they're doing it to themselves. The have to get their butts in gear, stand up, get counted. The credibility of arguments, such as are sparred with (by lawyers), increasingly fall on deaf ears. If people want to feel disaffected, marginalized or stigmatized, fine. But that's their own doing. When we hire, we want people who work, not people who through around how they're in the mintority, not enough in high places, blah, blah, blah.
You do the work, you don't like the place, leave. The average time in a job out here was 2 years, and it's been falling. People jump onto different horses at the drop of a hat for a better deal, better position, etc. Sit and winge and you lose. The sharks out here are not just a hockey team.
The percentages, treatment issues, etc. are thrown around by lawyers as they spar for position. They are out to win. They get a significant percentage of any award. Consider even 30% of 5 billion and you know why lawyers engage in slash and burn tactics as these. Coca Cola settled rather than have their reputation soiled. As suits of this ilk appear they sulley the legal profession and do no actual good for the plaintiffs, other than make a few wealthy. One reason many businesses move offices, etc. off-shore is to avoid this extortion. Go ahead, tell me about justice.
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+++ Out Of Cheese Error +++
+++ MELON MELON MELON +++
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Now take a "moron" with that set of skills and watch them climb the ladder and compare to Joe/Jolene-african-american-person who grumbles about not getting recognition for all their dedication and hard work and how the system is predisposed against them. Ever see anyone get promoted for squeezing sour grapes? I haven't. I imagine they don't hang around long if they have a reputation as a malcontent.
IME people who want to move up the ladder can do so by working toward an indispensible, high recognition position and making it known they are happy, but looking.
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+++ Out Of Cheese Error +++
+++ MELON MELON MELON +++
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Basically all I wanted to say was that whether none/some/all people do/dont think there is discrimination in the tech industry everyone here is agreeing on one form of discrimination and that's lack intellectual prowess.
I'm sick and tired of being held down in a low paying job just because of my intellectual ability! Where's my affirmitive action? Where's my stuff to make things better? Where's my intellectually challenged Jesse Jackson or whoever? Where's my high paying tech job? Oh sure you all might say well go to school get some education...well I would but my ACT/SAT scores are too low. I was denied access to one of the greatest educational facilities in this country because "I'm not smart enough." I hope you all get my point because well...I not too good with grammer and speeling and I have AD...uh..D.
Being a silicon valley sysadmin, and bouncing around throgh about 10 companies in 6 years i've seen alot of enviroments.
:)
Most companies aren't racist, yet they do practice segregation. (sp?) I'd name names but we'll protect the innocent.
The company I currently work for is a Fortune 500. I've been to 3 sites, the one I work at is mainly indian h1-b visa workers. By my estimate its about 150 indians, 10 asian, 5 anglo and 1 african american. The reason for the huge number of indians i'd suspect is because the site boss himself is indian.
The company I worked at before had a hawaiin CIO, therefore canidates from hawaii universities were hired before anyone else. It had close ties with HP so there were quite a few HP employee's on board, it was a good mix of about 50/50 between pacific islanders and anglo's.
Before that I was at a company that was allmost 90% taiwanese. The CEO was taiwanese so allmost the rest of the company followed suit.
Before that it was a German CEO, but this one was funny, we had a mormon CTO who hired a bunch of mormons from BYU. So you had a drinkin German fighting with a pompous self rightous prick religious mormon fanatic. After the CTO was fired most of the mormons were gone too and the CEO surrounded himself with germans.
I guess the point i'm trying to get at here is people in general try to surround themselves with like people, and in the tech industry this is more important than anything because of the communications involved. Personal expirience has taught me to allways use troubleticket systems because it forces them to explain the problem in text based english, which is free from the problems of bad verbal english mixed in with a heavy (put your favorite language here) accent.
I've been around redmond many times, well more like the washougal/camas area. Its pretty darn close though, and my impression has been that there are a lot of white people up there. So naturally there would be quite a number of anglos hiring/promoting anglos at M$. As horrible as it sounds, birds of a feather try and flock together. Certainly I could have sued a bunch of the companies i've worked for (they're discriminating my italian heritage) but i've found there are better things to move on to in life than spending your time in court over petty stuff. If M$ wants to be a white company, by all means go right ahead, go find a new job. I'm sure somebody out there is going to want to hire you. Better yet go to HP, out of all the companies i've seen so far they seem to be the most desegragraded company around. Someone should do a little photoshop magic and make a pic of bill gates wearing a pointed white hood.
Thats my $.02
--Toq
I have long thought that vast awards of "Punative" damages to plaintifs has hurt the legal system and driven up insurance and medical costs, as well as many other areas.
The logic behind punative damages is that the fee has to be large enough to make the transgressor not do it again out of fear of another penalty. But theses huge punative damage awards just encourage people to file suit over stupid stuff
My idea on what would work right is that the people filing only get the "real" damages. For example in the microsoft case, give them 10 year salary or something, good but not stupid. Then make microsoft pay the remaining 4.75 billion in punative damages but have it go somewhere else, not the plantifs. Where the somewhere else is I don't know and is a can of worms in itslef
I think this would preserve the punishment without painting a target on anyone with money
As x approaches total apathy I couldn't care less.
Probably the problems encountered at Microsoft stem in part from the way Microsoft started--as a consulting group offshoot of a tightknit computing club at Harvard. The founders of the computer industry were all young, white, and male. Nothing wrong with that, particularly, but now the field is trying to expand.
Not only persons of color but also women are experiencing problems breaking into these original networks. The relationships within the original networks are very insular, and very much tied to rapidly dwindling sources of venture capital. So, they are developing networks of their own, in Silicon Valley and in the emergent East Coast high tech corridor.
Still, as one of the leading corporate American employers, Microsoft can expect to be held to the same standards as other corporations insofar as Equal Opportunity Employment issues. Gone are the days when it could be argued that tech companies are somehow different or exempt from these workplace issues. If there is solid proof of a pattern of discriminatory practices, then it needs to be corrected.
Sincerely, Kathryn AegisI've worked on the Eastside of Lake Washington. I've worked with African and African-American tech people, even managers (no, they're not the same, someone who came here from Uganda has very different values than someone from Chicago).
And, I can say that, IMHO, most of the firms on the Eastside (Bellevue, Redmond, Kirkland) subconsciously discriminate against African-Americans, especially in management. It's actually easier to be female than male, because people can cope with you better.
Note that I'm what looks like Caucasian, even though I'm mixed like virtually any American; but I'm not blind. I notice the silent pauses, even when it's someone dressed up nicely in a suit with a proper "English" accent, when they show up at meetings or at lunch places.
And I'm not confusing it with those that dress the bad boy image, or talk with an urban African-American accent.
So, to survive, you have to be twice the manager that a white man or woman does. It's not fair, but it is true. And you have to watch who visits you at work, who you go to lunch with, and even when your kids visit you at work. Because the stereotypes, and the unconscious fears, are there.
That said, I doubt MSFT is doing this consciously. But their HR should be noticing the effect on African-American managers and questioning harsh evaluations for behaviour ("not a team player; gets angry easily") that would not be noticed if the manager was Caucasian.
[caveat - I own MSFT stock (and RHAT too)]
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
How about the racial figures in basketball and football, what do they illustrate? Or how about numbers of research papers published in Computer Science, papers on new algorithms, alogoritm patents. Or numbers for independent software consultants? In 17 years I have been in software business, I haven't run into a single black software consultant.
The only place where black computer, scientific and leadership geniuses dominate are Hollywood movies and PBS children programs. For example, in PBS cartoon Arthur, the class science & computer genius celebrates Kwanza, while the Jewish girl is top in sports and her father is a garbageman. The lightest skin kid is, as expected, the dumbest one and from a fatherless family.
Let me play devil's advocate for a bit. Maybe Microsoft (as a whole) isn't racist, it could just be a few bad apples. Microsoft is a large company with many employees, the odds are good that sooner or later they will hire a racist employee, and if there aren't enough complaints, how will they know there is a problem.
Also, the technology field is not a field for the poor, and poverty does tend to fall upon minorities and women (especially single women with children). I'm white and male myself, but I grew up in a single-parent household, my first computer I owned was a 286 I bought for myself around 5 years ago. School gave me enough experience with computers to learn BASIC, but not much more. Everything I learned I was self-taught, and if I was going to enter the technical field now (and I'm considering it), I would probably go for a MSCE and a little training to be a network admin, since it needs little schooling and jobs are available. Pay might not be great, but its money. Now with such training, I might be qualified to staff Microsoft's help lines or sweep the floors, not much more. I'm sure not going to be a code monkey on Whistler or Office 2002.
Continuing to be a devil's advocate, I would ask for hard evidence of racial bias, for example, having two employees of equal skill and training, and picking the white employee consistantly for advances in position, and raises in pay, and the employee has to be high-ranking enough for these to be the company's decision, and not a rotten boss's decision. Alternatively, if you could show me that valid complaints against bad bosses were brought to management's attention and ignored, you could prove to me that Microsoft is racist. Otherwise, the problem didn't exist, or its the occasional racist employee that management doesn't know about
Just my $.02
I have to say that the tech industry is as close to a merit based system as you can get. If you know your stuff you will get ahead. Although I've never worked at microsoft I know several people who have, I've never heard any complaits of this sort.
Jesus used to be my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him.
It was not that he was rude to white employees -- he just hung around with black employees. All the time.
Now, if a white person were to do the same, he would be labeled as racist. Especially, he would be culpable for exploiting his social relationships with white managers to gain standing. I don't claim to know how to fight this -- or even if it should be fought. I just observe the fact that black people do tend, as you pointed out, to socialize exclusively with other black people. And that they tend to exploit those social connections just as white people exploit theres.
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-- Slashdot sucks.
I think this case is a load of bunk, based on my experience and the examples I've seen in the industry (and Microsoft has historically been more enlightened than most - they just want big brains and not much more). What some people forget is that being qualified doesn't mean you get the job - you get it if you're the _most_ qualified. And if there's always someone better qualified than you, you never get the job. That's when you leave to get onto some other company's track - and hope the other company has people you can in turn leapfrog. When I've hired in the past (as I do at my current company, and did at my past employer), I could care less about race, gender, or sexual preference. I look for the following attributes:
1: Are their skills appropriate for the job?
2: Are their salary expectations in line with what I can pay, and am willing to pay?
3: Do they have the right amount of experience for the job?
4: Do they have a personality that will enable them to get along with their prospective co-workers on the "team"?
As tie-breakers, I'll look at things like certifications (do they have any, and are they relevant). I don't care about race or gender - send me people that can do the job and they'll get the job, assuming they're the best candidate. Period. And, excepting some troglodytes who are, I'm sure, in some companies, the bulk of IT hiring meets that standard.
Over the years, I've hired white, black, and hispanic, men and women, gay and straight. And there would almost certainly have been more categories represented in that list if I'd had them available to choose from - I've had good people work for me in all those categories! I'd have been an idiot and I'd be doing my company a disservice if I excluded any potentially good employee on the basis of race, or any other irrelevant factor that doesn't affect job performance.
- -Josh Turiel
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
Racism isn't always as obvious as it is on made-for-TV movies. (Sometimes, unfortunately, it is that obvious, but usually it's a lot more subtle.)
The tech industry cannot afford to be racist in any fasion since 75% of any tech company's employees are of some non-european ethnic origin.
I think you make a bit much of a leap though when you think the look of surprise means they thought of you as less competent.
I myself had a black CS friend in college, and he was really intelligent and great to work with. However, if I'd been in your group you probably would have seen a simlar look of surprize on my face - not becuase I thought you were less competent, but simply because people I talk with via e-mail or other electronic means always have a simply "likley profile" built up in my head and if it's different then I have to take a moment to readjust. It doesn't mean I would think less of the person, especially if I'd already worked with them...
I'll admit there are probably people who would react just as you said. But given how many people in the CS field are from various cultures (chinese, japanese, indian, etc.) I don't see how you could really go all that far in the computer field without being pretty open to people that differ from yourself.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The race thing drove me into a 5 threshold and cured me of my /. addiction. Big ups Taco, I commend your candidness and honesty.
Here's something that I found to be very interesting. It is an article by a caucasian professor of journalism at UT.
WHITE PRIVILEGE SHAPES THE U.S.
Robert Jensen
Department of Journalism
University of Texas
Austin, TX 78712
work: (512) 471-1990
rjensen@uts.cc.utexas.edu
copyright Robert William Jensen 1998
first appeared in the Baltimore Sun, July 19, 1998
by Robert Jensen
Here's what white privilege sounds like:
I am sitting in my University of Texas office, talking to a very bright and very conservative white student about affirmative action in college admissions, which he opposes and I support.
The student says he wants a level playing field with no unearned advantages for anyone. I ask him whether he thinks that in the United States being white has advantages. Have either of us, I ask, ever benefited from being white in a world run mostly by white people? Yes, he concedes, there is something real and tangible we could call white privilege.
So, if we live in a world of white privilege--unearned white privilege--how does that affect your notion of a level playing field? I ask.
He paused for a moment and said, "That really doesn't matter."
That statement, I suggested to him, reveals the ultimate white privilege: the privilege to acknowledge you have unearned privilege but ignore what it means.
That exchange led me to rethink the way I talk about race and racism with students. It drove home to me the importance of confronting the dirty secret that we white people carry around with us everyday: In a world of white privilege, some of what we have is unearned. I think much of both the fear and anger that comes up around discussions of affirmative action has its roots in that secret. So these days, my goal is to talk openly and honestly about white supremacy and white privilege.
White privilege, like any social phenomenon, is complex. In a white supremacist culture, all white people have privilege, whether or not they are overtly racist themselves. There are general patterns, but such privilege plays out differently depending on context and other aspects of one's identity (in my case, being male gives me other kinds of privilege). Rather than try to tell others how white privilege has played out in their lives, I talk about how it has affected me.
I am as white as white gets in this country. I am of northern European heritage and I was raised in North Dakota, one of the whitest states in the country. I grew up in a virtually all-white world surrounded by racism, both personal and institutional. Because I didn't live near a reservation, I didn't even have exposure to the state's only numerically significant non-white population, American Indians.
I have struggled to resist that racist training and the ongoing racism of my culture. I like to think I have changed, even though I routinely trip over the lingering effects of that internalized racism and the institutional racism around me. But no matter how much I "fix" myself, one thing never changes--I walk through the world with white privilege.
What does that mean? Perhaps most importantly, when I seek admission to a university, apply for a job, or hunt for an apartment, I don't look threatening. Almost all of the people evaluating me for those things look like me--they are white. They see in me a reflection of themselves, and in a racist world that is an advantage. I smile. I am white. I am one of them. I am not dangerous. Even when I voice critical opinions, I am cut some slack. After all, I'm white.
My flaws also are more easily forgiven because I am white. Some complain that affirmative action has meant the university is saddled with mediocre minority professors. I have no doubt there are minority faculty who are mediocre, though I don't know very many. As Henry Louis Gates Jr. once pointed out, if affirmative action policies were in place for the next hundred years, it's possible that at the end of that time the university could have as many mediocre minority professors as it has mediocre white professors. That isn't meant as an insult to anyone, but is a simple observation that white privilege has meant that scores of second-rate white professors have slid through the system because their flaws were overlooked out of solidarity based on race, as well as on gender, class and ideology.
Some people resist the assertions that the United States is still a bitterly racist society and that the racism has real effects on real people. But white folks have long cut other white folks a break. I know, because I am one of them.
I am not a genius--as I like to say, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I have been teaching full-time for six years, and I've published a reasonable amount of scholarship. Some of it is the unexceptional stuff one churns out to get tenure, and some of it, I would argue, actually is worth reading. I work hard, and I like to think that I'm a fairly decent teacher. Every once in awhile, I leave my office at the end of the day feeling like I really accomplished something. When I cash my paycheck, I don't feel guilty.
But, all that said, I know I did not get where I am by merit alone. I benefited from, among other things, white privilege. That doesn't mean that I don't deserve my job, or that if I weren't white I would never have gotten the job. It means simply that all through my life, I have soaked up benefits for being white. I grew up in fertile farm country taken by force from non-white indigenous people. I was educated in a well-funded, virtually all-white public school system in which I learned that white people like me made this country great. There I also was taught a variety of skills, including how to take standardized tests written by and for white people.
All my life I have been hired for jobs by white people. I was accepted for graduate school by white people. And I was hired for a teaching position at the predominantly white University of Texas, which had a white president, in a college headed by a white dean and in a department with a white chairman that at the time had one non-white tenured professor.
There certainly is individual variation in experience. Some white people have had it easier than me, probably because they came from wealthy families that gave them even more privilege. Some white people have had it tougher than me because they came from poorer families. White women face discrimination I will never know. But, in the end, white people all have drawn on white privilege somewhere in their lives.
Like anyone, I have overcome certain hardships in my life. I have worked hard to get where I am, and I work hard to stay there. But to feel good about myself and my work, I do not have to believe that "merit," as defined by white people in a white country, alone got me here. I can acknowledge that in addition to all that hard work, I got a significant boost from white privilege, which continues to protect me every day of my life from certain hardships.
At one time in my life, I would not have been able to say that, because I needed to believe that my success in life was due solely to my individual talent and effort. I saw myself as the heroic American, the rugged individualist. I was so deeply seduced by the culture's mythology that I couldn't see the fear that was binding me to those myths. Like all white Americans, I was living with the fear that maybe I didn't really deserve my success, that maybe luck and privilege had more to do with it than brains and hard work. I was afraid I wasn't heroic or rugged, that I wasn't special.
I let go of some of that fear when I realized that, indeed, I wasn't special, but that I was still me. What I do well, I still can take pride in, even when I know that the rules under which I work in are stacked in my benefit. I believe that until we let go of the fiction that people have complete control over their fate--that we can will ourselves to be anything we choose--then we will live with that fear. Yes, we should all dream big and pursue our dreams and not let anyone or anything stop us. But we all are the product both of what we will ourselves to be and what the society in which we live lets us be.
White privilege is not something I get to decide whether or not I want to keep. Every time I walk into a store at the same time as a black man and the security guard follows him and leaves me alone to shop, I am benefiting from white privilege. There is not space here to list all the ways in which white privilege plays out in our daily lives, but it is clear that I will carry this privilege with me until the day white supremacy is erased from this society.
Frankly, I don't think I will live to see that day; I am realistic about the scope of the task. However, I continue to have hope, to believe in the creative power of human beings to engage the world honestly and act morally. A first step for white people, I think, is to not be afraid to admit that we have benefited from white privilege. It doesn't mean we are frauds who have no claim to our success. It means we face a choice about what we do with our success.
Jensen is a professor in the Department of Journalism in the University of Texas at Austin. He can be reached at rjensen@uts.cc.utexas.edu.
nothing excels in every environment
How is it I can submit this article as the news is breaking and it's rejected, but once it's old news
This is one of the many reasons I love open source collaboration over the net. None of us have any idea whether each other is white, black, purple, or -- strictly speaking -- even from the same planet. You are judged purely on how you present yourself, and in email that laregly equates to how much time you spend proofreading your messages. :-)
It's much harder to be racist when everybody else is only seen as two-color bitmapped text, and you chose those colors...
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
The problem with this lawsuit is that it states that microsoft as a _company_ has a corporate policy of discrimination against blacks. This lawsuit isn't saying "there are some bad apples at MS" or "all the people we had to deal with were racist" - it says that "microsoft as a company is run by a secret good old boy network of black-hating people that turn otherwise unbiased managers into agents of the white devil".
I don't think the lawsuit says that. If there are some bad apples at Microsoft, Microsoft is responsible for it. If a rogue Microsoft employee put some code into the next version of Word which would at random times replace every other word in all your documents with the word "nigger", Microsoft would be responsible for this and would have to pay out on all the lawsuits brought against it even though it was a single person who did this and not a company policy.
Uh, you must mean reverse discrimination right? Clearly there are no absence of blacks in most of the major sports (except for ice hockey). I'm not trying to be a bigot, but in sports I think it's almost detrimental to be white nowadays
I'm a dev, and don't play sports. but from time to time i watch a game of football or basketball (mainly to feel somewhat masculene). It seems that the players will be >= 80% black, but certain roles are almost always white, quaterbacks, are almost always white, coachs seem to be nearly 95% white. owners are probably 100% white.
I don't know if it's hard for a black man to get a job doing one of those roles, for a black man to be an owner of a major sports team he would have to be pretty damm rich, and unfortantly, there arn't to many rich black folks out there.. huh, does this sound racist?, naww, must be my white liberal guilt.
-Jon
this is my sig.
I think you mistake arrogance for racism. When I'm up for a promotion or whatever, I always assume I'm the more skilled, it wouldn't matter if my competition was Richie, Pike, and Torvalds. And I expect everyone else around me to believe the same thing about them.
P.S. When I (poor white trailer trash) took freshman engineering, I had zero, zippo, nada experience with a computer. So don't just assume Joe White Boy had a privileged upbringing, either. Some of us worked our asses off too.
Shut up, be happy. The conveniences you demanded are now mandatory. -- Jello Biafra
but in sports I think it's almost detrimental to be white nowadays
Yea, it really sucks to be white and in the sports industry right now. After all, that means that you're probably an agent, manager, or executive, making a whole ton of money and not taking any physical risk. Oh, and don't forget how you don't have to worry about trying to make enough money to support you for your entire life during its short, physical peak.
It's just horrible...
So, either you're a clever troll, or a total idiot...
--
Feminism is the wild notion that women are human beings.
It seems the general consensus among white, male tech workers is that they belong in the industry. If they are up for a promotion against an equally skilled minority, of COURSE they should get the promotion, because they're automatically more skilled. Because the majority of tech managers are ALSO white, this attitude is perpetuated.
:) As someone else mentioned, the attitude generally is 'I'm the best there is.' not 'I'm better than all those [insert race here] people.' Arrogance is indeed rampant in this industry (and in most knowledge based industries).
This comment is just as racist as the attitude you're trying to portray. Any generalization about a race is racist. (Well except maybe "All white people or white." etc.
I don't deny that racism exists in this industry, it exists in EVERY industry to some degree. Guess what, racism (in general) will probably never completely go away. Someone will always find a reason to hate another group of people (be it race, country or what-not). I do believe people that are more commonly victims of racism have a tendancy to become overly sensitive though.
If you're competing for a job with 5 other white people and you feel you're the best one for the job and you don't get it would your first assumption be that you didn't get the job because you're black? Perphaps your own perceptions of your skills and the skills of other is skewed (it usually is, even mine I'm sure). Perhaps you didn't get the job because the other guy was married and had kids and you were single so he needed the job more (I've been on the shit end of the stick on that one). My point is, racism is only one of a large number of reasons why you could be passed over for a promotion that you think you should've gotten.
-Zane
This sig is worse than my last.
You're close -- 49% white in the Lower Mainland overall, but less in Vancouver city itself. And our population is quite more strikingly diverse than you portray, not to mention that your percentages add up to 110%. However, blacks don't even register statistically in any part of the province. Here's some percentages from the Sun's election coverage a couple months back:
Vancouver Kingsway has the largest non-white population, with 63.4 per cent of residents visible minorities. Vancouver South-Burnaby comes second with 56.2 per cent. Not surprisingly, Kingsway also has the highest percentage of residents who have a mother tongue other than English -- 62.2 per cent.
The least diverse riding in the region is Fraser Valley, where only 5.2 per cent of residents are non-white. The second-least diverse is South Surrey-White Rock-Langley, where only six per cent of residents are a member of a visible minority.
While Kingsway has a higher proportion of minorities, South-Burnaby is be the most diverse riding in the region. It boasts a large Chinese (30.9 per cent), Indo-Canadian (13.1 per cent) and Filipino (3.6 per cent) population. But it also has smaller, but still significant, groups of Korean, Japanese, Southeast Asian and Latin American residents -- all making up between one and two per cent of voters.
In addition to having the most minorities over all, Vancouver Kingsway also has the largest Chinese population in the region, with 39.7 per cent of residents being Chinese.
Richmond is second with 34.1 per cent.
Surrey Central has the largest population of Indo-Canadians with 21.3 per cent identifying themselves to census takers as South Asian. Surrey North is second with 16.6 per cent.
North Vancouver has the largest proportion of Arabs (3.3 per cent), Vancouver Kingsway has the most Filipinos (5.7 per cent) and Vancouver East has the highest number of aboriginals (5.6 per cent)
Well, Microsoft's attrition rate (9.6%) is about half the industry average (18.1%), so I think that speaks for itself.
I've been a low-level employee at MS and we were treated like gold. Not only was the environment laid back (come and go as you please, wear whatever you want, spontaneous water-gun fights), but they bought dinner for us all the time, had Friday Fests (music, food, free beer), threw huge parties for us, gave us cool stuff, planned skiing trips, etc. My managers were both reasonable and brilliant (direct manager was a top Cornell CS grad, his manager was a top MIT CS grad) and minorities were very well represented. The organization is also very flat, so I felt like I could have emailed almost anyone above me (our VP, for instance) and it would be read and responded to. I think that's the general experience of MS employees that work in the product groups.
Uh, you must mean reverse discrimination right? Clearly there are no absence of blacks in most of the major sports (except for ice hockey). I'm not trying to be a bigot, but in sports I think it's almost detrimental to be white nowadays.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
I don't understand the American legal system when it comes to suing people and companies. It seems like you can sue for any amount of money that you like!
True. We should implement a libertarian system, where people that sue a company or a person, and lose, have to pay the legal fees for the other party.
BAM! A lot less frivolous lawsuits when you have to think real hard about whether you have a legitimate complaint.
"And like that
I'm saddened but not really surprised by the general response of most here, "rascism? Of course not, it's just that very few black people apply for tech jobs / have the qualificiations / yadda yadda yadda". Guess some of you should have bothered to try learning something from the humanities people. Yes, some of sociology is real science too.
Western society is intrinsically rascist, mostly for historical reasons. How anyone in the UK or US could deny it when white people are so much better off across the board (income, life expectancy, social class, education, victims of crime, you name it.) Either society is set up to subtly (or none-to-subtly) discriminate against people on the basis of their skin colour, or black people are intrinsically more stupid / violent / criminal / unhealthy. Which I don't think (I really hope) no-one here actually consciously believes.)
In the last year my brother married Ghanaian woman and they have just had a beautiful baby girl. I've also just started work at a company with a black CEO. (Yes, man-in-black, he has a public school (ie, expensive fee-paying here in the UK) accent.) Watching people getting introduced to either of these two without having been explicitly told 'oh, by the way, s/he's black" has been rather...educational. And rather depressing.
Looking on the bright side: in Western Europe, where we haven't quite the same historical relationship with black people and slavery (yeah yeah, Liverpool and Bristol were built with slave trade blood money, but we never had millions of black slaves *here*) -- there surely is rascism here but (I hope) through hard work & educational efforts & not least legal sanction (like: not letting the police get away with it when yet-another black suspect accidentally falls down some stairs in a policestation and dies on the floor of a cell) -- things are getting better, for black AND white.
Final word for the white folks here who really believe they're too smart to be rascist. How do you think you can grow up in a rascist society and NOT absorb ANY of those attitudes? I know I did. Without lacerating oneself with liberal guilt, it's good to look for the speck in your own eye before denying there's a beam in Microsoft's (or society's at large.)
--
If the good lord had meant me to live in Los Angeles
Excuse me folks, but isn't every worker, black and white, working in the IT field ... like, welcome to the real world!
(and especially larger companies like, oh, say, Microsoft) treated like a slave? 60+ hour work weeks, oppressive management structure, morons getting promoted
over vastly more skilled and competent co-workers
Look here for some more info:N ews/.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/Business/Microsoft_
To answer the question, in the tech industry, it's approx. 6.3%. So yes, it's a little lower.
How many are Indian? How many are Asian? How many are White?
I find that quite a few of their complaints aren't discrimination based on color...they're things that Microsoft does to ALL of their low-level employees. We don't call them Microserfs for nothing, you know...
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
Nobody here feels like a slave. None of the MSFT people I've talked to feels like a slave - especially not those who have made millions there.
If you are forced to work a 60 hour week, you should go seek employment elsewhere. If you are oppressed by your manager, passed over for promotion, etc, move on. If you aren't happy, take your skills elsewhere. There are lots and lots of places that need competent people, will treat them right, and pay them well.
-- Jeff Paulsen
If you think about it, its like saying that Microsoft have made $5 billion out of these people, and that these people have lost $5 billion because of Microsoft. Maybe these are exceptionally talented individuals, but surely they should only ask for how much they have actually lost?
I'm not black, but I am a female, which in the tech industry may as well be the same. I've definitely experienced sexism on all levels. One thing I have noticed: If there is 1 {insert group here} person, you judge that person on their abilities. If there a half dozen, and they tend to socialize with each other, they are treated based on the stereotype.
I do not doubt for a second that you have been discriminated against, however the best way to fight discrimination is to not let people think of you as a race/gender/religion but as an individual. Distinguish yourself. Most of my friends are white or indian guys. They talk about "stupid females who got into CS at CMU based on gender," but they don't lump me into that group. Period.
At the risk of sounding racist, I have noticed something about black people in particular, more than indians, chinese, or females, they tend to associate exclusively with members of their race. They are asking to be treated "the same." People who form cliques are not liked by those outside the clique. Think back to high school. Did you like the "popular" people? Did you think all "popular" people were dumb?
It's hard being a female (and I'm sure as bad if not worse being black) in the tech industry, but filing class action lawsuits which lump you back into the same group will do nothing to help.
-Alison
To be fair to Microsoft, I don't think this is necessarily indicative of a racist policy at Microsoft. MS may well hire qualified applicants irrespective of race. What it does indicate is a societal problem. I don't know enough black people to have a particularly detailed picture of the challenges they face, but I know enough women to know that from grade school onwards, women are discouraged in various ways from pursuing technical and management careers. I'd be willing to bet blacks face similar pressures.
I was one of a handful of white kids bussed to a predominantly black public school as part of desegregation in Tennessee in the early 80's, and I can say that the mostly black schools I saw were in utter disrepair, short on textbooks, and staffed with teachers who did not compare well to their counterparts in mostly white schools. (In both cases, most of the teachers were white.) Schools in TN are some of the worst in the nation -- I went to what was regarded as the best high school in the area and didn't have to write a single essay in four years -- but the predominately black schools were even worse. We can talk all we want about the role of individual initiative, but not having the opportunity to learn will screw you good.
--
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
Sorry, M$ may be evil but come on.
I remember one time Jesse Jackson headed to silicon valley to complain about a shortage of blacks being hired.
The resounding response: "Bring 'em in! We are facing a shortage of computer experts and we will hire anybody who is competent!"
Vidi, Vici, Veni
shit like this bugs me, but whatever.....
I worked for MSFT for 4 years and damn - i'd do it again in a second. I've never worked for a compnay that treated it's employees as well. You're going to stay late? Let us order dinner for you..... anything you want to drink. Shuttle buses. Great stock options If you worked your ass off and did good work, expect to get nice fat bonuses (twice annually) and promotions. Nobody I ever met gave a rats ass if you were white, black, purple, straight, gay, male, female, etc. Your work is what mattered - period.
All that aside - racism? Have you seen the racial makeup of any tech company in the US? 'Whites' (whatever that means) are generally in the minority.... in my current company a SUBSTANTIAL minority. People get promoted according to ability, talent, social skills (YES - to manage other people you can't just be a code genius, you have to be able to work with people as well). Just because you are 'qualified' for a promotion doesn't mean you are the MOST qualified. Sorry - that's life.
Don't get me wrong - i'm not about to say that there couldn't possibly be individuals whos actions may be suspect. But they would be just that - individuals. A coroporate racist policy? Give me a friggin break. People forget that MSFT in Redmond is what - 18000 employees? It's a small city! And you'll get the same kind of cross secion of people there that you get anywhere....
And FIVE BILLION? Well, that just speaks for itself...
j
--
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
This is true for me too. I'm white. Why do you assume that since all of this happens, that it's racially motivated? This stuff just happens, and it seems to me that office politics is the single most non-discriminatory thing there is.
Again, why do you assume that this is true only for black men on the jobsite? You seem to assume that black people only get on the job through hard work and that everyone else was handed it on a silver platter.
Ok. So your high school didn't challenge you. Which left you with lots of time to do things, like challenge yourself. And it would appear from your own words, that you got something very rewarding from being challenged. My high school challenged me incredibly, but it left me almost no time to do anything else. It would seem to me that we did about the same amount of work. Why assume that you're the only one that worked your A$$ off?
Key to financial independence: Spend less than you earn. Save and invest the difference. Do it for a long time.
In my experience it's always amused me at the reaction I get when I come in for an interview. On the phone, it would be near impossible for someone to realize that I'm black - I have a classic "white" voice. They read my resume and probably talk to me on the phone, but you can see a look of surprise in many an interviewer's eyes when his next applicant is a 6 foot tall black guy.
--
OliverWillis.Com
OliverWillis.Com
An Operative with an Agenda
It is clearly not the case that all whites naturally assume they are better employees than blacks, just like it is clearly not the case that all whites have access to good education (have you ever been to the south ?), just like it is _clearly_ not the case that all members of your "Racial group" even give a shit about the educational progress or financial stratification of their race.
There is obviously racism in our field, because our field is made of PEOPLE, some of whom happen to be racist, or even have subconscious prejudicial tendancies.
The problem with this lawsuit is that it states that microsoft as a _company_ has a corporate policy of discrimination against blacks. This lawsuit isn't saying "there are some bad apples at MS" or "all the people we had to deal with were racist" - it says that "microsoft as a company is run by a secret good old boy network of black-hating people that turn otherwise unbiased managers into agents of the white devil".
How likely do you think that is ?
As someone who has been through Microsoft interviewer training, at what point in the MS hiring process do i get told about the secret "discriminate against blacks" rule ? It sure wasn't in my training packet. It wasn't anywhere listed in the whole section of stuff about actively but tastefully avoiding any questions or issues regarding ethnicity/religion/gender/preference/whatever. As interviewers there are whole lists of things we're not allowed to talk about and anything that could even be used to inferr financial history or caste or racial background or whatever is strictly taboo.
I've worked at a number of tech firms - there is more racial diversity at MS than anywhere else i've worked, both in general and in management.
Although I don't beleive in the government mandating AA programs and quotas, given a hiring choice where all things were equal, if one candidate clearly had an advantage growing up because of racial and financial history, and the other probably had to work _really_ hard against lots of financial and social obsticales, i'd want to try and hire the less priviledged of the two - the one that had to work harder to cover the same distance. But I like to root for the underdog. Unfortuneately, thanks to all the AA and PC stuff thats been forced on institutions, my understanding is that i am not allowed to take into consideration such issues when making those decisions.
Shame really - the very basis to judge who's had the harder climb, a method to really show minorities and those who are disenfranchised with "playing by the rules" that they _can_ win - pulled right out of the whole hiring process.
And for what its worth, I salute you for sticking with it to get to where you are now - I got glimpses of how the black kids at my HS who were really working hard to make the most of their education were treated by others - sometimes whites - but more often than not, the blacks from their very own neighborhoods that seemed to have given up on the system. It was disheartening all around, to say the least.
It's hard to say wether AA type programs or even optional preference given to minorities will do anything to help rekindle the spirit of the kids that see a tunnel with no light at the end. Part of me thinks that people see through AA and minority preference as a cop out, enforcing the idea that minorities _cant_ get ahead without help.
Whats the right answer ? The government says im not allowed to have a preference one way or the other. What do you say ? What should the hiring practice in the tech industry be ?
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
I worked at Microsoft as a developer for over 10 years in the Office group. I participated in the hiring process and was a manager. We were constantly looking to hire, train and retain the best possible people for the job, regardless of race, gender, personality or anything else not directly related to getting the job done.
Very early in my tenure, the hiring criteria was explained to me thus: "it doesn't matter if the candidate goes and pees in the corner of your office in the middle of the interview, if the candidate is a brilliant programmer, we hire him or her". The foolishness of racism or gender bias was even clearer by implication and made explicit through HR training.
Apart from the obvious moral and legal issues, racism is stupid and self-destructive. Success means a lot at Microsoft and discrimination reduces your competitiveness. In my experience, stupid people don't last long at Microsoft.
Obviously Microsoft is a huge company which I left several years ago, and I don't know the specific people involved, but I doubt the corporate culture has changed that much since I was there.
Disclaimer: I'm a white guy.
I'm usually surprised to see black guys programming. Why?
At the college I went to (an engineering school) the majority of black men and women attended the liberal arts/Afro-American studies major.
A friend of mine, Tavia, was in the same engineering program as I was. A black woman engineer. She tended to stand out in class :) But, she was an incredibly talented and intelligent person. She got great grades. I often asked her for help, and we worked together on several lab projects. She became friends with a number of the engineering students and we ate lunch together, and just hung out a lot.
The black men and women at our campus tended to eat lunch in their own little cluster in the corner. They took a pretty dim view of Tavia eating lunch with us. They'd come right up to her and say things like "Forget what color you are?" They'd tear decorations off her dorm room door. They physically and verbally harassed her. How can black people who want to advance deal with this kind of pressure? I sure wouldn't know how.
I feel that the black community is just as responsible as the white community for the current conditions.
"We apologize for the inconvenience."
...I got nice and angry at some of the comments posted on this article. It's funny to me that people I consider my peers (meaning geeks) always tend to assume there is no racism in our field, because they honestly think that they're too smart to be racist.
First, let me be frank: I don't agree with suing for $5billion. Nor do I agree with using the small percentage of MSFT minority workers as leverage. What I DO agree with is the basis behind their argument, which is the EXACT same attitude being reinforced on this board.
Everywhere I've worked (UNIX Systems Admin/Engineering) I've been seen as a remarkably compentent, skilled worker....until I meet the customer face-to-face. Then, suddenly, my decisions are questioned more, people go over my head to ask about things that are my responsibility. Even back to college (University of Michigan), I was faced every day with fellow students who were SO SURE that they were smarter than me, and professors who didn't think that I deserved to be here, assuming that I was only here because of Affirmative Action (I've got that in the workplace as well).
It seems the general consensus among white, male tech workers is that they belong in the industry. If they are up for a promotion against an equally skilled minority, of COURSE they should get the promotion, because they're automatically more skilled. Because the majority of tech managers are ALSO white, this attitude is perpetuated.
Let's set the record straight: My racial group does not choose to be less educated...we simply don't always have access to the same resources growing up as whites. That can't possibly be understood by someone who's never attended public school in a major city (I'm from Detroit). I took freshman EECS with 3 hundred white guys that had been taking C classes since the 9th grade, and the only exposure I'd had to any form of high-level programming was self-taught. Poor K-12 education == Poor SAT/ACT != quality higher education. This uneven playing field is the reason for the small numbers of us in the tech industry.
I'm sick of typing at this point, and I've got Apache modules to code. To sum up, stop with the "Blacks are always complaining...why don't they just get jobs...they have as much access to higher education as we do" crap. Find a black man on your job site, and ask him where he's from, and what high school he attended. I guarantee he's either got parents as priviliged as most of yours, or he worked his ASS off to get to where he is now.
--Just Another Pimp A$$ Perl Hacker
El riesgo vive siempre!
As I heard it, it stems from perception of treatment, but as lawyers will do, they play some mean cards when they decide to go for big huge giant money like that. Tossing workforce makeup percentages around, drawing attention to the way one person is treated, overlooking that the same treatment is dished out to everyone, etc.
Reality is, few blacks are in the high tech industry. Period. Has nothing to do with heritage, skin color, religion, etc., but to do with few persuing the skills to the point they would be actively recruited. Perhaps this can be the product of layers of demographics, but you can't blame a company for not hiring enough programmers if most of the applicants decided to study greek literature. It's absurd. And all this bending-over-backward which companies have done to avoid looking racist won't really pay dividends for years.
Down the coast, where Mr. Jesse Jackson raised a big stink, in Silicon Valley, you will find ethnic diversity is the rule. Not because of some quota system, or trying to appease alleged social movement leaders, but because the people brought their skills in and carved out their space. Sadly for some of these complainers, it's not the ethnic diversity they want to see.
I have some serious reservations about the legitimacy of a complaint when I see a party going for enough money to buy the Dakotas.
Maybe they'd have a case if Microsoft forced them to smoke cigarettes...
--
+++ Out Of Cheese Error +++
+++ MELON MELON MELON +++
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
It does not matter how many Billions Bill Gates has given to minority charites, he does not make every promotion, MS is composed of over 39,000 employess. Racism is caused by some of these employees prejudices (nothing to do with Gates) acting on them.
If someone has been brought up to think that Black people like me are less intelligent then he is just because of the color of my skin, then the next time I am up for promotion with a White counterpart, even if I might be more qualified than he is, in my superiors eyes, Black people are just not intelligent enough to hold that position, and I will be denied the position. Now, this is Racism. How do I know??? I have experienced it in the Tech field.
All those who are saying that Racism does not exist in the tech field are saying so because they have not experinced it....and would't.
The same goes for stereotypes such as Black people being thought of as being lazy, violent and as one poster put it, the most criminals. Did you ever stop to think how someone felt when he walked into an office for the 1st day at works and was already being treated as if he were lazy or just came out of jail?? Always a suspect when something went missing? answering rediculous questions like "have you ever been to jail?"
Most times it is so subtle that I don't think that most white people realise what they are doing or what effect it has.. but then again thats just me being an optimst. Yes, racism exists.
oh, and the $5B is for the hundreds of former and currnet MS employees, not just 7of them.
I have no real opinion about whether $5 billion is too high or not.
However if we are going to discuss it, we have to at least get the facts straight. First of all, the 7 people are trying to make this a class action suit--which spreads the money out some.
Second, at most importantly, the plaintiffs aren't saying that they personally lost $5 billion due to racism at Microsoft. They want that as *punitive* (means "punishing") damages. If all MS was required to do was give each black person $100k (for lost salary, etc) they wouldn't even notice. The idea is to inflict some pain on the corporation to force them to change.
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First of all, Indians and Asians, though they may still be minorities, do not have the stigmas or problems that blacks and Hispanics do in this country, so pointing at them and saying "see, there's no racism here" is hardly relevant. The fact that these two groups (blacks and Hispanics) are underrepresented in higher income occupations is very serious, and it does not better the situation by shouting out allegations of "reverse discrimination" before their case has even been heard in a court of law. Is the fear that their complaints may actually be justified so overwhelming that it has to be covered up by the web of denial? Please, that is for the justice system to determine. And just remember that every jurer on every court faces that denial as well, which makes their struggles all the more challenging.
Microsoft aside, we face an even bigger problem that 1) blacks and Hispanics live in poorer neighborhoods, 2) blacks and Hispanics are more likely to have undereducated parents, 3) blacks and Hispanics are more likely to go to public versus private schools, 4) living in poorer neighborhoods directly implies substandard educational facilities, 5) computer science is more likely to be taught in college preporatory classes, which are more likely to exclude blacks and Hispanics due to the substandard elementary school facilities, 6) blacks and Hispanics are less likely to make it to college in the first place, 7) get real--show me a list of computer jobs where "bachelors degree" is not a requirement.
And even if one or two are lucky enough to make it through all of those obstacles, they face an even bigger challenge in getting noticed for jobs, promotions, benefits, etc., consciously or unconsciously.
Their case is worth hearing out, we owe them that much. 40 acres and a mule? I'd rather have 40,000 stock options...
Becuase for a variety of societal reasons, there aren't as many blacks in the computer industry as there are whites, or Asians.
You can say the same thing for women, there aren't as many women in the computer industry as men, percentage wise.
I think to find their suit substantial, they need something stronger than percentages.
Why, here 5 employees are suing for $5 Billion - Isn't this completely over the top? $50,000 each would be more like it. Doesn't it mean that big companies are in total fear of the very slightest slip up, and are unlikely to take risks and innovate when it could mean that they are likely to lose Billions if it even goes slightly wrong.
Also, I really really find it hard to believe that a company in this day and age would be racist. They are driven by money, and finding the best employee for the job is the absolute bottom line in any company these days.
It'll be very interesting to see more details of this case and see just what happens! ;)
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