How do you consider this even an argument? Why do I have to provide them with something? There's a huge userbase that doesn't want this change.
But the authors want this change, if you don't like it then don't use their code but you can't tell them what to do. That huge userbase should then reject the changes, fact is these changes are valuable to their business and therefore to their paying customers.
To come back to your question, and not be rude to you by replying to it with mine, they should do what the userbase needs, because that's what these projects (and certain news sites, by the way) used to be about, and the reason these communities thrived.
No, these corporations are for-profit, they contribute things that are valuable to them. If a lot of smart people don't like the change then a lot of smart people should reject those contributions.
This guy and his sith-like-alliance are bringing about a variant of the eternal september instead of the year of the linux desktop
I'm not disagreeing with you on Poettering or on systemd, just that if Red Hat wants it they are free to use it but just because the community was silly enough to create a dependency on a for-profit corporation with some incredibly naive idea that said corporation should act in the interest of the community rather than themselves doesn't mean you get to dictate what Red Hat does and does not do.
Like it or not the little distros like Slax just don't have the resources to go it alone
Slackware plenty of support and it doesn't use systemd. But that is what the community is for, if enough people aren't willing to contribute time or money then clearly the project is not viable.
whatever Red Hat wants to push WILL be in Debian, like it or suck it users!
So desktop Linux has only ever existed at the whim of Red Hat?
RH has made it clear they do not give a single fuck about what the community wants, this is about selling their cloud, period.
Oh wow you mean a for-profit corporation cares more about its shareholders than the "community"?
What is with this "I want Linux and I want it my way and I want Red Hat to do it for me" attitude? What is it you think they owe you?
Seriously what happened here?! Yes those corporations that are in the business of making profit will do what is in their best interests rather than the users. We know that, we've always known that, so what we have always done is to take the systems they provide - that we want/need to use - and work around any issues that we don't like. What they have provided out-of-the-box has never been ideal for everybody so the geek/nerd way of dealing with that (and then helping others deal with that) was to come up with new ways to work while still exploiting these systems.
With Windows we've had awesome alternative shells like LiteStep, Emerge, bbLean, etc... And when Open Source projects start to be driven in a different direction they are forked (MySQL/MariaDB for example or Open/Libre Office) or you switch to an alternative that does things the way you like (for example Slackware and Gentoo don't depend on systemd). Yet at some point it all devolved to stories about Windows 8 or Gnome3 or Ubuntu or systemd being just hundreds of angry comments from detractors venting rather than genuine solutions - which do indeed exist - to the problem. Nowadays it's mostly just people getting angry and throwing their hands up in the air shouting "it's hopeless". The Amazon/Ubuntu issue was a very simple fix and if you took issue with it such that turning it off wasn't enough then it would be trivial to maintain a fork with that code removed or a patch to remove it but still those who claimed to care about the issue were more interested in posting "fuck you canonical" than fixing the issue.
It's not all hopeless but it's not all going to be done for you either, getting all angry about it is just detrimental to you. Coming up with a solution to a problem you have is rewarding and sharing that solution should be even more so but the response around here is most often "well I shouldn't have to do anything else, it should work out of the box" well wake the fuck up, corporations don't act in your best interest and never have and never will.
Okay, I couldn't, without third-party addons, use W8 in a way comfortable for me.
I guess that means you never use a Mac then. The people who struggled are the people indoctrinated in Windows usage with the start menu.
And, if you're not supposed to use Metro applications (which can be brought up as programs to handle file types, etc.), why was Microsoft pushing its counterpart to the app store for laptops and desktops?
I didn't say you're not supposed to, just that you probably wouldn't. But with the growth of the touchscreen display sector, laptops with touchscreens and convertible tablets you can see why they included it in the desktop version and with it not being particularly appropriate for setups that don't have touchscreens they have alleviated the issue with Continuum in Windows 10.
If you want to see the direction they are going and provide feedback and usage information to them. Not really something I'm in enough to devote free time to, I can see videos on youtube. Beta release is a different story.
forking gnome is hard, especially the parts, which are no longer designed to run without systemd, because if it would be easy to make them independed of systemd, they already were.
gnome didn't have a dependency on systemd until recently.
You mean the systemd guys, the gnome guys and distro guys? They didn't decide for everyone else, in fact some of the biggest distros (Slackware and Gentoo for example) don't use it or have it only as an option.
Yes, obviously you couldn't make a convincing argument to real developers to side with you so you lashed out in a childish manner when you didn't get your way. I'm not claiming to judge your argument - in fact you didn't even make one - but quite clearly people who know a lot more about it than you and who actually do the work associated with incorporating it decided whatever arguments you made to them were flimsy, so you get angry and send hate mail not to the developers who made the choice but to the person who presented that choice to them.
It does leave users a choice, it's the same choice the users always had when the developer of the software they used moved in a direction they didn't like. But from an average user's perspective I doubt very much they would even notice change to systemd much less have an opinion on it.
I don't have the time to fork, I'll just switch to something that works.
And this is why the user is still effectively just as trapped with open source software as they are with proprietary software, the whole philosophy is built around the user having control but in reality the task is not practically achievable and people can't be bothered so when it doesn't work the way they want to they switch to something else rather than doing work to change it.
In other words, you present yourself as the arbiter of my free speech and presume to understand my thoughts on the subject even though you haven't actually heard them?
No, criticizing the pathetic childish behavior of sending hate mail just because you didn't get your way is not stifling your free speech, grow up.
Sending hate mail just because you didn't get your way and the distro developers actually doing the work who know what they are doing sided with him instead of doing what you wanted them to do is just fucking pathetic.
So you're claiming that while I do the install and testing I have no right to curse the cause of the extra work?
Not when it's by means of advocating hate mail toward the developer just because the distro you chose adopted his software and you don't like it. If you feel so strongly about it then get involved in the process rather than whining from the sidelines.
Switching to Slack or Gentoo would naturally be less work, but it would take longer than a lunch break to make the switch on a server and make sure it's ready to go.
So if it takes longer than your lunch break it goes in the "too hard" basket and instead you'll just spend the time complaining on slashdot.
I care about other people who will use it and have all of their keystrokes collected.
But they don't care, they wouldn't be using it if they didn't want this stuff sent to Microsoft for feedback, that is the purpose of this program yet you're are so angry at Microsoft on behalf of people who do not share your view that you can't even understand what this is all about. You clearly just want to be angry, that's sad.
I have no idea how stable it is and none of us know the degree to which future changes would invalidate current software testing results.
And? This is not a beta, how hard is it for you to understand that?
Seems like one to me.
Yes when you continually fail at reading comprehension that will happen.
As it stands if you want to try Windows 10 preview you can't even "opt-out" of keylogging forget about misleading "opt-in" BS..
So don't try it then, it is offered as is and you don't want it so don't use it.
Only idiots care about everything they type being uploaded to Microsoft.
No, only idiots care about that yet still install it despite being told quite clearly that the intention of this specific program is to do just that. Yes, those people are idiots.
you don't have to use it, unless you want to use anything gnome...
Then fork Gnome, that's the whole point of open source! If there really are that many people upset about this and it isn't just a vocal minority then a fork would quickly supplant the systemd-dependent version.
So you figure I can just spin up a new distro over my lunch break, do you?
Spin up? You mean create a new distro or install a new distro? It doesn't appear Slackware or Gentoo have a dependency on systemd nor plans to exclusively support it. If you've chosen a distro that you no longer like the decisions of then change to a different one.
Yes I'm not saying you're contradicting yourself, just that you said the majority is not pushing systemd while the minority is so what I'm wondering is why the majority doesn't get to work on maintaining the init path especially when distros like Slackware and Gentoo haven't committed to systemd.
You're talking right past me. Are you now saying that you do NOT see any contradiction?
I directly answered your question:
You seriously see a contradiction there?
No
See.
Because 'one the one hand... on the other....', used as you used it, generally implies a perceived contradiction.
It isn't a contradiction, it's that you said that to continue supporting init would require significant manpower and that systemd is pushed by a minority. It follows that there exists a majority - right there is your manpower - that doesn't want systemd who could take on the task of support init path.
Read the analogy and you have your answer. It's not about manpower. It's about role.
Yes but it's not like things are fixed like that, that "one valve of the heart" could have been replaced but there was an unwillingness by the majority to actually do that and instead there is a prevalent defeatist attitude of throwing arms up in the air and crying "it's hopeless".
No, I said how is there not enough manpower to maintain a fork that doesn't have a dependency on systemd and uses init instead? I understand the issue but it seems nobody wants to maintain an init solution and would rather just let the systemd guys dictate it instead, it isn't that there is some technical issue or some lack of people it's just that it's a job nobody can be bothered doing yet there seems to be hordes of people expending huge amounts of effort complaining about it rather than doing anything.
Make no mistake: systemd integration is a textbook example of antidemocratic approaches, of how the commons can be soiled by a very small minority of the people using it.
So how is it there isn't enough manpower to maintain a fork with init rather than systemd? On the one hand you claim it's too much work to not use systemd but then simultaneously say systemd is pushed by a minority.
The fact that there was a closely split decision on whether to integrate systemd into Debian should have been read as a damning indictment
Hang on, the sentence before this you said it was antidemocratic because it was pushed by a very small minority now you're saying it was a closely-split decision.
Any self-respecting developer would have realised that the best way to move systemd forward would be to take an incremental approach
So why are you using distros produced by developers that don't do that? It's all well and good to say it's pushed by a minority but it appears many distros have jumped on board and switched from init to systemd.
As long as key logging cannot be turned off I would not use Windows 10 preview
So what are you complaining about? Is it that you want to use it? I can't see why anybody would use this except if they wanted to give feedback, it's not stable to use as a main OS and it's subject to change so useless for software and hardware testing.
Best of luck to you in your continued defense of Microsoft.
It isn't a defense of Microsoft, it's a defense of being able to have a program such as this - purely an opt-in feedback program - that is open and clear about its intention and not have to idiot-proof it for people like you. If you don't want to partake in such a program then don't, I don't want to either so I won't but I'm not going to go crying about its existence.
Now if this were the final software or even a beta for software and hardware testing then I would absolutely agree with you, but it just isn't.
Slashdot Mirror
How do you consider this even an argument? Why do I have to provide them with something? There's a huge userbase that doesn't want this change.
But the authors want this change, if you don't like it then don't use their code but you can't tell them what to do. That huge userbase should then reject the changes, fact is these changes are valuable to their business and therefore to their paying customers.
To come back to your question, and not be rude to you by replying to it with mine, they should do what the userbase needs, because that's what these projects (and certain news sites, by the way) used to be about, and the reason these communities thrived.
No, these corporations are for-profit, they contribute things that are valuable to them. If a lot of smart people don't like the change then a lot of smart people should reject those contributions.
This guy and his sith-like-alliance are bringing about a variant of the eternal september instead of the year of the linux desktop
I'm not disagreeing with you on Poettering or on systemd, just that if Red Hat wants it they are free to use it but just because the community was silly enough to create a dependency on a for-profit corporation with some incredibly naive idea that said corporation should act in the interest of the community rather than themselves doesn't mean you get to dictate what Red Hat does and does not do.
Note WILL, in capital letters. Typically used to denote future tense.
So you're saying it isn't now, in which case why would it be in the future?
Emphasis mine, on "has" and "existed". Typically used for past tense.
So what changed now such that created a dependence on Red Hat that didn't exist before?
Like it or not the little distros like Slax just don't have the resources to go it alone
Slackware plenty of support and it doesn't use systemd. But that is what the community is for, if enough people aren't willing to contribute time or money then clearly the project is not viable.
whatever Red Hat wants to push WILL be in Debian, like it or suck it users!
So desktop Linux has only ever existed at the whim of Red Hat?
RH has made it clear they do not give a single fuck about what the community wants, this is about selling their cloud, period.
Oh wow you mean a for-profit corporation cares more about its shareholders than the "community"?
What is with this "I want Linux and I want it my way and I want Red Hat to do it for me" attitude? What is it you think they owe you?
Did they ask their communities, or did they decide over their head?
You should already know the answer to that question.
Why should I have to switch systems, just because someone decided to break things, instead of going with the philosophy that built these communities?
Obviously because it is not your project, you are just a user. What exactly do you provide to them such that they should do what you want?
Seriously what happened here?! Yes those corporations that are in the business of making profit will do what is in their best interests rather than the users. We know that, we've always known that, so what we have always done is to take the systems they provide - that we want/need to use - and work around any issues that we don't like. What they have provided out-of-the-box has never been ideal for everybody so the geek/nerd way of dealing with that (and then helping others deal with that) was to come up with new ways to work while still exploiting these systems.
With Windows we've had awesome alternative shells like LiteStep, Emerge, bbLean, etc... And when Open Source projects start to be driven in a different direction they are forked (MySQL/MariaDB for example or Open/Libre Office) or you switch to an alternative that does things the way you like (for example Slackware and Gentoo don't depend on systemd). Yet at some point it all devolved to stories about Windows 8 or Gnome3 or Ubuntu or systemd being just hundreds of angry comments from detractors venting rather than genuine solutions - which do indeed exist - to the problem. Nowadays it's mostly just people getting angry and throwing their hands up in the air shouting "it's hopeless". The Amazon/Ubuntu issue was a very simple fix and if you took issue with it such that turning it off wasn't enough then it would be trivial to maintain a fork with that code removed or a patch to remove it but still those who claimed to care about the issue were more interested in posting "fuck you canonical" than fixing the issue.
It's not all hopeless but it's not all going to be done for you either, getting all angry about it is just detrimental to you. Coming up with a solution to a problem you have is rewarding and sharing that solution should be even more so but the response around here is most often "well I shouldn't have to do anything else, it should work out of the box" well wake the fuck up, corporations don't act in your best interest and never have and never will.
Okay, I couldn't, without third-party addons, use W8 in a way comfortable for me.
I guess that means you never use a Mac then. The people who struggled are the people indoctrinated in Windows usage with the start menu.
And, if you're not supposed to use Metro applications (which can be brought up as programs to handle file types, etc.), why was Microsoft pushing its counterpart to the app store for laptops and desktops?
I didn't say you're not supposed to, just that you probably wouldn't. But with the growth of the touchscreen display sector, laptops with touchscreens and convertible tablets you can see why they included it in the desktop version and with it not being particularly appropriate for setups that don't have touchscreens they have alleviated the issue with Continuum in Windows 10.
If you want to see the direction they are going and provide feedback and usage information to them. Not really something I'm in enough to devote free time to, I can see videos on youtube. Beta release is a different story.
forking gnome is hard, especially the parts, which are no longer designed to run without systemd, because if it would be easy to make them independed of systemd, they already were.
gnome didn't have a dependency on systemd until recently.
You mean the systemd guys, the gnome guys and distro guys? They didn't decide for everyone else, in fact some of the biggest distros (Slackware and Gentoo for example) don't use it or have it only as an option.
just that you claim to sit in judgement.
Yes, obviously you couldn't make a convincing argument to real developers to side with you so you lashed out in a childish manner when you didn't get your way. I'm not claiming to judge your argument - in fact you didn't even make one - but quite clearly people who know a lot more about it than you and who actually do the work associated with incorporating it decided whatever arguments you made to them were flimsy, so you get angry and send hate mail not to the developers who made the choice but to the person who presented that choice to them.
I don't have the time to fork, I'll just switch to something that works.
And this is why the user is still effectively just as trapped with open source software as they are with proprietary software, the whole philosophy is built around the user having control but in reality the task is not practically achievable and people can't be bothered so when it doesn't work the way they want to they switch to something else rather than doing work to change it.
In other words, you present yourself as the arbiter of my free speech and presume to understand my thoughts on the subject even though you haven't actually heard them?
No, criticizing the pathetic childish behavior of sending hate mail just because you didn't get your way is not stifling your free speech, grow up.
Sending hate mail just because you didn't get your way and the distro developers actually doing the work who know what they are doing sided with him instead of doing what you wanted them to do is just fucking pathetic.
So you're claiming that while I do the install and testing I have no right to curse the cause of the extra work?
Not when it's by means of advocating hate mail toward the developer just because the distro you chose adopted his software and you don't like it. If you feel so strongly about it then get involved in the process rather than whining from the sidelines.
Switching to Slack or Gentoo would naturally be less work, but it would take longer than a lunch break to make the switch on a server and make sure it's ready to go.
So if it takes longer than your lunch break it goes in the "too hard" basket and instead you'll just spend the time complaining on slashdot.
I care about other people who will use it and have all of their keystrokes collected.
But they don't care, they wouldn't be using it if they didn't want this stuff sent to Microsoft for feedback, that is the purpose of this program yet you're are so angry at Microsoft on behalf of people who do not share your view that you can't even understand what this is all about. You clearly just want to be angry, that's sad.
I have no idea how stable it is and none of us know the degree to which future changes would invalidate current software testing results.
And? This is not a beta, how hard is it for you to understand that?
Seems like one to me.
Yes when you continually fail at reading comprehension that will happen.
As it stands if you want to try Windows 10 preview you can't even "opt-out" of keylogging forget about misleading "opt-in" BS..
So don't try it then, it is offered as is and you don't want it so don't use it.
Only idiots care about everything they type being uploaded to Microsoft.
No, only idiots care about that yet still install it despite being told quite clearly that the intention of this specific program is to do just that. Yes, those people are idiots.
you don't have to use it, unless you want to use anything gnome...
Then fork Gnome, that's the whole point of open source! If there really are that many people upset about this and it isn't just a vocal minority then a fork would quickly supplant the systemd-dependent version.
So you figure I can just spin up a new distro over my lunch break, do you?
Spin up? You mean create a new distro or install a new distro? It doesn't appear Slackware or Gentoo have a dependency on systemd nor plans to exclusively support it. If you've chosen a distro that you no longer like the decisions of then change to a different one.
Yes I'm not saying you're contradicting yourself, just that you said the majority is not pushing systemd while the minority is so what I'm wondering is why the majority doesn't get to work on maintaining the init path especially when distros like Slackware and Gentoo haven't committed to systemd.
You're talking right past me. Are you now saying that you do NOT see any contradiction?
I directly answered your question:
You seriously see a contradiction there?
No
See.
Because 'one the one hand... on the other....', used as you used it, generally implies a perceived contradiction.
It isn't a contradiction, it's that you said that to continue supporting init would require significant manpower and that systemd is pushed by a minority. It follows that there exists a majority - right there is your manpower - that doesn't want systemd who could take on the task of support init path.
Read the analogy and you have your answer. It's not about manpower. It's about role.
Yes but it's not like things are fixed like that, that "one valve of the heart" could have been replaced but there was an unwillingness by the majority to actually do that and instead there is a prevalent defeatist attitude of throwing arms up in the air and crying "it's hopeless".
You seriously see a contradiction there?
No, I said how is there not enough manpower to maintain a fork that doesn't have a dependency on systemd and uses init instead? I understand the issue but it seems nobody wants to maintain an init solution and would rather just let the systemd guys dictate it instead, it isn't that there is some technical issue or some lack of people it's just that it's a job nobody can be bothered doing yet there seems to be hordes of people expending huge amounts of effort complaining about it rather than doing anything.
Make no mistake: systemd integration is a textbook example of antidemocratic approaches, of how the commons can be soiled by a very small minority of the people using it.
So how is it there isn't enough manpower to maintain a fork with init rather than systemd? On the one hand you claim it's too much work to not use systemd but then simultaneously say systemd is pushed by a minority.
The fact that there was a closely split decision on whether to integrate systemd into Debian should have been read as a damning indictment
Hang on, the sentence before this you said it was antidemocratic because it was pushed by a very small minority now you're saying it was a closely-split decision.
Any self-respecting developer would have realised that the best way to move systemd forward would be to take an incremental approach
So why are you using distros produced by developers that don't do that? It's all well and good to say it's pushed by a minority but it appears many distros have jumped on board and switched from init to systemd.
So, in other words, they've written an OS where it's trivial to drop in/out a keylogger
As opposed to what? What OS is it not trivial to drop a keylogger in to if you are the one shipping the binaries?
That's what a beta test is for, not the tech preview.
As long as key logging cannot be turned off I would not use Windows 10 preview
So what are you complaining about? Is it that you want to use it? I can't see why anybody would use this except if they wanted to give feedback, it's not stable to use as a main OS and it's subject to change so useless for software and hardware testing.
Best of luck to you in your continued defense of Microsoft.
It isn't a defense of Microsoft, it's a defense of being able to have a program such as this - purely an opt-in feedback program - that is open and clear about its intention and not have to idiot-proof it for people like you. If you don't want to partake in such a program then don't, I don't want to either so I won't but I'm not going to go crying about its existence.
Now if this were the final software or even a beta for software and hardware testing then I would absolutely agree with you, but it just isn't.