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Systemd Adding Its Own Console To Linux Systems
An anonymous reader writes: The next version of systemd is poised to introduce an experimental "systemd-consoled" that serves as a user-space console daemon. The consoled furthers the Linux developers' goal of eventually deprecating the VT subsystem found within the Linux kernel in favor of a user-space driven terminal that supports better localization, increased security, and greater robustness of the kernel's seldom touched and hairy CONFIG_VT'ed code.
srsly?
And this is why I'm switching to OpenBSD. Fuck. This. Shit.
And fuck you Poettering. DIAF already.
Few people want systemd at all. Why it is being forced on us?
Please stop this madness!
Why is everyone so mad about it?
Is it really just me that has a shitload of problems with the current VT?
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion. -- Spazmania (174582)
All systemd needs now is an integrated web browser and a registry!
Good. When you have some hairy kernel module that hasn't been touched in a long time, and has security holes because nobody's willing to change it, sometimes you just need something better.
As long as I can still run vi in it, I'm good.
I'm just here for the entertainment. Now where are those villagers with pitchforks?
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
Does anyone really want "better localization" in terminals. My experience as a bilingual user from windows is that the less things are localized the better they work.
Making commands localized breaks script compatibility. (And that includes any output if that is parsed too.)
It has gone to the point where I get the English version of Windows rather than one adapted to my native language. The localization of some of the folder names makes things break and the translation of GUI elements obfuscates the function and makes it so that one has to translate everything to English and back to realize what the function is, especially when the original translator used every synonym for "device" he could possibly find.
Unless they have found a new revolutionary way to localize stuff that haven't been done before. Then it might actually work.
is the solution.
You fix it, amirite? Seriously, forcing systemd onto server-class systems was a stupid idea to begin with: so, your parallel startup saves me, what, thirty seconds every six months? And for that, I have to give up a proven, reliable startup config for something far more complex? And now it's going to have its own fucking console?
For a desktop, fine, do whatever makes you feel good. But, keep that shit off my servers.
systemd just became WindowsPE.
This is a solution needed, only when you have become so mind-bogglingly complex, and binary-oriented like Windows.
Booting into runlevel S is so... practical.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
This is what is wrong with SystemD.... Do ONE job, do it well. Not replace the entire ecosystem.....
Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing an editor and a MTA.
systemd adds java VM at boot time!
Command Lines? Where we're going, you don't _need_ Command Lines!
It's threads like this that make me glad I don't run Linux. Childish bickering in the Linux community is rampant.
Few people want systemd at all. Why it is being forced on us?
If you don't want to use all of Lennart Poettering's code, you can choose to use less.
Will this console run any worthwhile games? (Other than NetHack, that is.)
X-mas 2016 edition of SystemD:
- now with built in kitchen sink, linux kernel not needed.
--- Reality doesn't care about your opinions, it happens anyway and if you are in the way you'll get squished.
Linking to slides of a talk without the actual content of what's being presented doesn't give me the keys to understand why that change/new approach is necessary. I'm not against systemd or bashing it, I'm part of the people that don't understand half of what it's replacing to begin with.
At this rate by the end of the year systemd will be the only piece of software I will need to install on a machine. Since it seems to want to replace the entire operating system.
I'm trying to be ok with systemd but If I wanted to replace my entire operating system, and everything I know about that operating system. I would move back to OpenBSD. Atleast I know what I'm getting into there and how everything works is well documented.
They're busy lightin their torches... but cant remember which init script to run to do it.
We need to create a debian fork without any pottering taint. I mean jesus this is my career. Don't turn linux in win95.
http://boycottsystemd.org/ has generated quite a bit of traction for UselessD, a fork that tries to put the brakes on this flaming deathcab, but its interesting to see what the big 2 are doing. Ubuntu is committed to systemd because shuttleworth wants a "unified" experience and any users that care about their dwindling illusion of free will or choice have long since jumped ship. Pottering works at RedHat so theyve decided to hedge their bets that the server world, which is their bread and butter, is honestly interested in a binary logging monolithic pid0 that has udev and dbus as forced dependencies. user switching and networkmanager are fucking useless to me.
Leonard wont address this fact, but it stands and stands well. RC init was fine. SunRPC was fine. syslog was fine and consoles werent broken to begin with. Whining about mean developers in linux misses the point. you're redesigning something for the sake of redesign and its being done against the wishes of an ethos, the unix ethos, that has served well to maintain some of the most powerful computing systems in the world. There will be a pushback when you have the audacity to imply your linux redesign is a "choice" after a plurality of distributions adopt it.
Good people go to bed earlier.
I don't get all the hate for systemd, because I don't understand why anybody cares. I turn on the machine, it boots up, stuff runs, web pages get served an files get shared. Who cares what's handling the launching of startup processes?
Is systemd trying to become emacs?
> What is with the SystemD bashing anyway?
Like someone else already says. It violates the Unix design philosophy. It's a kitchen sink approach that creates unnecessary complexity, unnecessary dependencies, will be harder to work with, and will be more buggy.
If you want the Windows approach to systems design you can just use that. There's no need to pollute something else.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
... because it can never be early enough to buy some apps.
Just like when Ubuntu went with Unity, and a lot of people switched to Linux Mint as result, it appears that with the introduction of SystemD we are now seeing a mass movement from Linux to OpenBSD. Quite interesting times. :)
The last vestige of Linux has been removed from the GNU/systemd distributions, as systemd continues to move forward.
What does Linus say about it? Seriously, what's his point of view? I haven't seen this mentioned in any of this discussion.
rabble rabble rabble!
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
The only answer I can come up with, as to why systemd is being shoe-horned into every mainstream Linux dist, is that Poettering is secretly employed by the NSA. And with Linux being what it is, moving forward, the NSA need a backdoor in place, since RSA and DUAL_EC_DRBG are suspect. If systemd becomes defacto standard for Linux, despite the criticisms that are falling on deaf ears of the decision makers, they'll have their 'in'.
The truly sad thing here, is that systemd isn't being deployed a path option. It's becoming, this way, or the highway (see move to *BSD). Which, for all my years supporting the FOSS and Linux environments, is wholly antithetical.
...as if millions of computers suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly...
Before you go round acting like the sky is falling, try educating yourselves about why this is necessary. This is not just a systemd problem, this is a problem for any init system that wants to support multi-seat, and sane switching between VTs:
Now you may say that OMG systemd is teh evil monolith!!1!!!, but before you do that understand that this has been an important feature that has been needed for a long time in any init system it just happened that SystemD solved it first.
Don't you have anything better to do than stalk people in articles that have nothing to do with HOSTS files, apk?
Just wake me up when it has an app store.
I have been a consistent Linux user since the 1.x kernel back in the 90's. Before there was even X11 integration, before there was Red Hat even. I have never had a problem with changes to the ecosystem - Switching to Xorg? Fine. Ditching LILO for Grub? OK. But this... this systemd is terrible. It's replacing half the OS, it's fixing stuff that ain't broke, and honestly causing more frustration with trying to troubleshoot compatiblity, daemon startup, and whatnot...
I'm to the point in my career where I no longer need to care about this stuff. My server admin days have given way to more major infrastructure issues. The only things I use Linux for anymore is for my personal file server in my basement, and even that is running old Fedora 17. I've been messing around with SteamOS to play video games in Linux - a long held goal of mine - but I'm asking myself now, do I even care anymore?
I'm done with Linux. Screwing around too much with stuff that doesn't need to be messed with is giving me headaches and sucking up more of my time that I can better spend on other pursuits.
Goodbye, old friend. Maybe we'll meet again once this systemd bullshit passes.
Well, it's pretty simple. init had quirks - just like any other software. But they were well known.
I wouldn't care about the switch if everything worked in a systemd environment. Unfortunately, they haven't gotten all the possible software relationships figured out for what depends on what, and since it tries to start everything it can as fast as it thinks it can, system services don't start properly in some cases. It is hard to patch things so they work right since when the next systemd update comes out it rewrites the service policies, so if they didn't agree with your environment, you get to patch again. At times there have been enough changes under the hood that old patches don't work right. My approach was to move all the service start-ups to rc.local with appropriate sleeps or pings to attempt to ensure hardware a particular system relies on is running. Ugly and imperfect and probably prone to blow up in my face eventually, but my start up times are back down to a reliable 30 to 40 seconds instead of minutes - with the emphasis on reliable. Just reused the old init script numbering order to set up the service start order in rc.local and voila - it works. Can't tell you how many service network restarts systemd was trying on a couple of boxes before it finally could get started, but it was more than one. AARGH.
I'm sure in several years systemd will be as reliable as init was. Or they can add their own network stack and I/O handlers after they get the latest useless console functionality working and jettison the kernel. But the real gripe I have is they're worrying about things like the console before getting what they have working as rock solid as init was. Same gripe with Network Manager. It's great for a laptop with wireless or wired only. But the trunk and VLAN handling was an afterthought. It's gotten better, but that all should have been working BEFORE shipping the first test release to the users.
Article: Old, crusty, and possibly bug ridden part of the kernel is being moved to userspace. This new work will increase both the security and the stability of Linux systems, while adding the possibility of internationalization support.....
Slashdot Comments: Finally some one is doing something about CONFIG_VT. People have been bitching about that for years!
Article: this new feature is part of systemd.
Slashdot Comments: NOOOO! Why is Lennart taking away my freedoms! I'm switching to BSD.
It has gotten pretty clear that a lot of the hatred for systemd has nothing to do with the technical merits. This is a fix that has been a long time coming. Yet, almost half the comments are just more systemd hate fest.
What is with the SystemD bashing anyway? It's written entirely for the Linux API for the better, why should Linux stick with the old init which runs in Unix System V and BSD. Isn't this why Linux is moving away from the old xorg to wayland.
Because especially in programming, "old" does not necessarily equal "broken." "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." And especially don't fix it with something that breaks half the rest of the product as a whole...while kind of failing to actually provide any benefits.
It will take some time to fully optimize SystemD for Linux and it will be the same thing with Wayland.
Except Wayland is still optional. You don't ram the new software into the working ecosystem and then fix it.
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
Evading answering questions asked of you by an ac reply BarbaraHudson?
year of GNU/Hurd on the desktop!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Thanks for all the links to your shitty blog. It's completely useless to everyone, but at least you tried.
Shifting things from kernel space to user space is usually a good idea, especially with respect to security. Of course the ttys should not stay in PID 0 but be moved to separate, user specific processes in the long term. But moving them from kernel space to PID 0 is an important first step in that direction.
Oh, you mean like the Linux kernel does?
Oh wait, you did know that Linux isn't a microkernel, but in fact is a monolith, right?
“Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.”
http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Z/Zawinskis-Law.html
You do realize that this whole stalking and multiple-post tactic only makes you look pathetic and kooky and does nothing to discredit your target du jour, right? This isn't how debates that people take seriously are carried out.
I doubt the AC you responded to was BarbaraHudson. Most of us here are sick of seeing tons of identical off topic replies from you.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
Are Linux using companies rushing to get RHEL 7? Are Linux users anxious to upgrade to Systemd based systems? Or, has Linux with Systemd proved unpopular?
systemd is staring to look like a bloated corpse.
Apart from instances like now when I'm running four X sessions at once because it makes some full screen software behave a lot better and sandboxes workflows nicely. Then there's the people that were running multiple keyboards, mice and monitors for a couple of people on the same box well over a decade back. What is it with Wayland fanboys not having a clue about the system that they are supposed to be improving on?
unfortunately these trolls don't have the mental capacity to realise they are behaving like twats
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
It violates the Unix design philosophy. It's a kitchen sink approach that creates unnecessary complexity, unnecessary dependencies, will be harder to work with, and will be more buggy.
Sounds like EMACS. Who knew that violated the Unix design philosophy. Has anyone told RMS?
The worst part is when shortcut keys and mnemonics are changed because of a different language, I navigate by keyboard and have to re-learn everything on other systems and guess what the right command is if I don't know the language.
Twinstiq, game news
systemd is optional, you can remove it and replace it with any init system you like
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
It is pretty sad to see, that after so many comments nobody really has a clue about what the story is about, and what is happening in the Linux kernel.
The kernel VT system has been considered a monstrosity by kernel developers the last decade and everyone is of the opinion that it should be used to user space.
The finally a really smart guy actually attacks and solve the problem. His name is David Herrmann, and he has tirelessly worked on this for years. Systemd distros will get the full support of his research, simply because almost all Linux distros are using, or a going to use systemd. But don't worry, he has provided rich support user space VT's on non-systemd Linux distros, by eg. "ksmcon"
https://github.com/dvdhrm/kmsc...
Here is his fosdem talk:
https://archive.fosdem.org/201...
Here is his blog that will tell you more about VT's than you ever knew:
http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/
Here is a wiki link about VT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...
Here is an old blog post about the problems with the old kernel VT:
http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/20...
In short, no need for the systemd opponents to get their panties in a bunch; they can either use Hermanns user space tools, or pretend there isn't a problem and use the present kernel system.
For the rest of us who really likes systemd, this is great news. Thanks to Hermann's work, there will be much better console support for early boot debugging, better security, better keyboard and language handling etc.
Yeah, and then GNOME (and anything else that depends on it) won't work. Try to keep up.
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
BarbaraHudson's ac stalking method quoted: FROM http://slashdot.org/comments.p... :
"HOWTO: trolling the hosts file guy in one easy step The next time you see a post by him, just reply anonymously. And to really mess with his head, reply anonymously to your anonymous post, disagreeing with your first anon post (extra points if you claim in the second post that you're him - that REALLY sets him off)." - by tomhudson (43916) barbara.hudson@ ... a - h u dson.com on Saturday April 16, 2011 @01:38PM (#35841122) Journal
BarbaraHudson the sockpuppeteer ( http://slashdot.org/~BarbaraHu... = http://slashdot.org/~tomhudson... = http://slashdot.org/~Barbara%2... ) evades questions + does a "run, forrest: run eating her/his words" as predicted too.
It violates the Unix design philosophy
If the Unix design philosophy is to have cryptic init files scattered all over creation then it needs to be violated.
I don't get all the hate for systemd, because I don't understand why anybody cares. I turn on the machine, it boots up, stuff runs, web pages get served an files get shared. Who cares what's handling the launching of startup processes?
Because some of us worry about when things don't Just Work. Some of us have jobs whose responsibility it is to Make It Work. And systemD makes that more difficult at times. For example: their binary logging system ("the Journal") is not ACID compliant and can become corrupted if there's a (unrelated-to-systemD) crash of the system.
Now if the system is crashed, I want to know /why/. But if the logging has been trashed, how can I get any diagnostics of the last few moments before the system went AWOL?
The systemD developer response to corrupt logs? "NOTABUG":
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=64116
So instead of using a decent back-end data store for logging (e.g., SQLite, BerkleyDB, OpenLDAP's LMDB) they decided to reinvent the wheel and did a piss-poor job of it. Then they deny it's a problem.
https://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20140924071300-170035-why-you-cannot-trust-lennart-poettering-systemd
I have not (yet) used systemD, so don't know if it is the greatest thing since sliced bread or a complete load of crap. It purports to solve a lot of problems, but I've never experienced them and so the change to me seems unneeded. Add the above problem about logging, and I don't have a lot of faith in the design of the thing.
I haven't seen a lot of pressure yet. With RHEL6 the urge to switch came on fast. Esp with regards to virtualization and what not. I haven't gotten the sense that RHEL7 has a whole lot of "must have now" tech in it, as opposed to the amount of systemd fear it has. Based on some quick googling, systemd can be configured to send your log files over syslog so that takes care of most of my corporate compliance concerns. I don't think the systemd folks have done a good jobs educating people on how it can fit into existing workflows. Esp. against all of the noise out there. I don't really know if it's even possible to fit it in with everything. But I guess we'll find out. I currently have no opinion, I see some benefits as well as some drawbacks.
systemD = 43 fat binaries of unknown function, 243 unflexable application config files, 5 major configuration files and it still sucks! The way VT used to work in initd, VT were one of the first functions operating during boot. Since systemd, it now occurs after systemd is run and way down the chain. The reason why having multiple VT's active early in the boot, is that it allows one to monitor kernel debug messages if something hangs. It's like a backdoor tool, and a tool to use when booting a bad or corrupt disk and you need to see what is going on. The only thing broken in linux is systemd!
This is real. This is the result of more than a year of work. Blog posts have detailed all of that for months if you knew where to look (I didn't, but friends of mine pointed me to this). While I can see the need to clean up the existing interface, I'm not a fan of the resulting solution, either.
No? Ok, let me guess. The next step is to impliment the OSd capability so they are no longer depending on Linux.
systemd is optional, you can remove it and replace it with any init system you like
Unless you are using a disto like Gentoo, you can't replace systemd because everything useful depends on it either directly or indirectly.
And now, I expect that you will say "that's not systemd's fault, that's the fault of the distro". Except that without dbus, systemd won't run, and without dbus, you the number of apps that will actually run can be counted on on hand. And, it's that way because the same guy that wrote systemd wrote dbus, and baked in the dependency.
OTOH, if you have a step-by-step guide on how to replace systemd with any other init system on current releases of CentOS or Fedora, and the upcoming release of Debian, I'm sure there would be many people who would be grateful.
Why do you have to rape linux mr Poettering, why oh why? Such fundamental changes, stuff it in your own operating system.
I still have bitcoins! *coughs* oh wait some people found that inappropriate humour...
It won't be done until it incorporates a reinvention (poorly) of Emacs into PID 1.
~.~
I'm a peripheral visionary.
"HOWTO: trolling the hosts file guy in one easy step The next time you see a post by him, just reply anonymously. And to really mess with his head, reply anonymously to your anonymous post, disagreeing with your first anon post (extra points if you claim in the second post that you're him - that REALLY sets him off)." - by tomhudson (43916) barbara.hudson@ ... a - h u dson.com on Saturday April 16, 2011 @01:38PM (#35841122) Journal
FROM http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
Is there anything else that isn't broken that it can fix? What problem does this solve? What hole does it fill? What is the fucking point?
Is you replying to comment/censored banned? or you just talking to yourself?
Frank N. Furter Barb (lol) http://images1.wikia.nocookie....
Frank N. Furter = BarbaraHudson "LiVe" (lol, absolutely live) http://images1.wikia.nocookie....
https://access.redhat.com/docu... is a rather comprehensive and good guide to the changes in RHEL 7 for RHEL sysadmins. One thing you'll learn from it is that RHEL 7 logs to text via rsyslog (as a journald consumer) *by default*.
Here http://news.slashdot.org/comme... ? Flavored w/ your foot in your mouth to "ram 'em down" + washed down w/ "the bitter taste of SELF-defeat" too, perhaps?
R O T F L M A O!
Of course, now, the "TrAnStEsTiCuLaR-MoNsTrOsiTy" Tom (BarbaraHudson, the resident 'confused' on who/what he/she is, evidenced also by multiple sockpuppet accounts on slashdot for cheating moderation http://slashdot.org/~BarbaraHu... = http://slashdot.org/~tomhudson... = http://slashdot.org/~Barbara%2... ) will "Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" from questions in the 1st link above as always!
I haven't seen a lot of pressure yet. With RHEL6 the urge to switch came on fast. Esp with regards to virtualization and what not. I haven't gotten the sense that RHEL7 has a whole lot of "must have now" tech in it, as opposed to the amount of systemd fear it has.
We're a mixed shop, running CentOS 6 and Ubuntu LTS (12 and upgrading to 14). We will not be upgrading to any version of either distro that has systemd until at least a year after release, and maybe even later, despite the fact that upgrades to LTS 14 happened within a month of release for many of our systems.
Thanks. I've read this before. But not currently switching to RHEL7, so have obviously forgotten everything that isn't relevant to my day to day trials. But thanks again for the reminder.
But the reason for having 100's+ of Linux distros out there is to be different and somewhat unique from one another, and so, why is it so damaging if a few distros like Ubuntu, Fedora, Opensuse, etc... switch over to systemd? Are we playing the GPL Virus game here where people think that one major change in one or two distros destroys the whole Linux environment? FUCK the Unix philosophy it's old and outdated, it belongs in the 1970's.
SystemD closely resembles Microsofts svchost which has it's pros and cons but it's still more efficient than the old SystemInit. Unix like BSD failed to reach any market share because it's stuck in the past and Linux is moving towards the future.
For any other Free software, the default response to complaints is "So where are your patches, asshole?"
systemd-webserverd
systemd-registryd
systemd-kerneld
And then it'll be complex enough to need a systemd-systemd.
simple, just install the things that don't depend on it
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
He's metastasized and is now infecting every sub-system that he can get his grubby little hands on. You can't blame Lennart for what he does, it's his nature. Just like you can't blame water for being wet or fire for being hot.
What you can do is let him write his code but don't allow him to influence how actual servers are maintained in the real world. How or why he gets any say in anything remotely having to do with system administration is a mystery. He's a shit developer pushing out his curlies and foisting them upon the world. Redhat is like a helicopter parent rewarding him for "making poopy like a big boy".
It's a sad situation. He clearly needs serious mental help.
If the developers of "everything useful that depends on it" have updated their "xxx" to interact with it, just appeal to the developers of "xxx" to make the dependency optional.
i have no interest in replacing it as it works for me but opensuse does have a sysvinit package you can install. I'm relying on the very vocal detractors of systemd to be sufficiently competent to install the init system of their choice because they are adopting the position of saying they are smarter and better than the developers of systemd.
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
It won't matter because you won't be using VI to make any changes.
I'm not BarbaraHudson, I'm Spartacus! ...or maybe you're Spartacus. I'm not sure. It's hard to keep all the voices straight.
we already have emacs!
In Russia, Unix design philosophy violates you!
Not sure if parent is trolling but this is what Poettering meant by "open source is full of assholes." Guy wrote a piece of software that you are free to use or not (for free) and you want him to die? What kind of a retard are you? Shouldn't you be mad at the maintainers instead (who, I'd wager, have a bit more insight in the matter than you) for adopting his software.
Yes, and now we have more undebuggable unit files!
"I had a problem, then I used Java. Now I have a ProblemFactory."
As far as I can understand they are fscking serious.... OK guys, so long and thanks for all the fish. Any variant of BSD (OK, except the shit Apple is selling) for my cup of tea...
systemd managed to replace init, inetd, and some of cron in what appears to be a stable environment. This allowed systemd to work in docker and drastically improve Linux virtualization to leapfrog Solaris zones.
What systemd did not do was provide reasonable documentation. RedHat's v7 inittab has a website for a blog post that sucks. There is no general intro for users attempting to create crontabs executed by systemd, inetd entries for common services, and runlevels that control groups of processes.
systemd fell down hard on documentation, and the first blush with the unix admin crowd has not been kind.
These developers delivered working code in a radically new environment, but without documentation the architecture appears to discriminate against people who have been doing things the same way for 30 years. The authors, and their software, appeared cliquish and discriminatory. Had the software and the documentation enabled a gradual migration into a more powerful architecture, things would have been quite different.
In any case, this is no justification for people to be vile. The old crowd needs help into the new environment. This help needs to happen, and the insults and threats need to stop. Both sides need to work together to get us where we need to be.
I think I'm glad to read this news, especially right now, because it might motivate someone to develop a better alternative.
I'd like to see something like this:
I do embedded development, and most of those have no GUI or X server. I can use VTs to keep VIm sessions open on a few (yes, I know VIm supports multiple files/buffers, but VT switching is easier), a VT for compilation/test, and, with GPM, copy/paste between them.
KISS vs. portability vs "if you don't like, go somewhere else or make your own"
It is Linux afterall (as by F/OSS principles, if you don't like it, there are other choices).
Sounds like a Feature, not a bug... Replace that Gnome with something worthwhile.
There's always OS X. :)
Yeah, I'm an XFCE guy myself ever since Unity, but anything that depends on GNOME (e.g. GIMP) may be problematic.
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
It's not Metro.
It's SVCHOST.EXE
But that's a little too arcane, for people who neither debug their own system, or who are not security specialists of one stripe or another.
How about "systemd is a BSOD" :-)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bZId5j2jREQ/U-vlysklvCI/AAAAAAAACrA/B4JggkVJi38/w426-h284/bd0fb252416206158627fb0b1bff9b4779dca13f.gif
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
One of the defects constantly levelled against systemd is its propensity to corrupt its own system logs, and how the official response to this defect is to ignore it. The uselessd page has a link to the bug report in question, which was reported in May 2013 and, over a year later closed and marked NOTABUG. However, it seems Mr. Poettering is getting annoyed by people using his own bug reports against him, and added a comment to the bug report today purporting to clarify his position.
Unfortunately, his "clarifications" serve only to reinforce my suspicion that systemd is a thing to be avoided. To wit:
Well, yeah, corrupt logs would be regarded by many as a major bug...
Okay, so freeze the corrupted data set so things don't get worse, and start a new data set. A reasonable defensive practice. You still haven't addressed how the corruption happened, or how to fix it.
Okay, so journalctl tries to be robust, assumes the journal data might be crap, and works around it. So we can assume journalctl is probably pretty solid and won't make things worse.
....Uhhhhh-huh. So, yeah, newer tools will do a better job of working around the corruption, and we'll be able to recover more data, assuming we kept known-corrupt logs around. But what I still don't understand is WHY THE LOGS ARE CORRUPT. And why aren't there log diagnostic and analysis tools? If you already know your logs can turn to crap, surely there are structure analysis tools around that let you pick through the debris and recover data that your automated heuristics can't.
And why do I get the feeling that implied in the above is, "You don't need to know the log structure or how to repair it. We'll write the tools for that. We'll release better tools when we get around to it?"
....AAAAnd you lost me. Seriously, this is your defense: "Filesystems are more important than system logs, so they have to try harder?" I find this insinuation... surpr
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Cue Linus biting the heads off of chickens while spouting a Tourettes-like tirade of death threats against systemd developers.
as the operating system of choice.
Your analogy is wrong. Try this one.
Lennart: "Hey guys, I've cured the common cold!" .... WHY IS EVERYONE UPSET WITH ME?!?!"
<people wander over, interested>
Lennart: "Okay, so, the cure happens after I infect you with another virus that causes brain cancer. BTW, I have gotten your local government to agree to start spraying everyone in the face with my cancer virus.
for fuck's sake, this is real!?
It's a Lennart Poettering meltdown and accurately exemplifies the problems people have with him, those around him and why people are justifiably concerned about the software he is being allowed to write. This guy simply has 'issues'.
If he believes he's going to take on Linus and the kernel developers, stamp his feet and take over the Linux landscape he's going to lose badly.
yeah it already has an httpd, why not a browser as well!?
I predict systemd's evolution to include no need for the kernel eventually.
Wake me up in few years. It's still too early to adopt SystemD.
I mean, the damn stuff looks like it's in alpha, what with lacking basic stuff like it's own filesystems and network drivers. :) :D
When it gets to the point where it can update the CPU's microcode, I may look into it.
If you don't like the direction the major Linux distributions are going - spin off your own distro - it is open source for a reason.
Debian, Redhat, Ubuntu only force their decisions on you if you are too lazy to do it yourself.
You could even call it "No Poettering's Allowed"
SUCK IT RED HAT & DEBIAN LOSERS! (..and derivative losers!)
Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
Am I alone in wondering who would benefit from chaos and strife in the Linux community?
As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
systemd would make a great OS if it only had a decent init system
Unfortunately, the unwashed masses are probably not going to shut up. It's trendy to bash systemd, even though the vast majority of people complaining have never really had any problems with it. Lennart's an ass, but he does address all the common complaints in a reasonable way. Systemd is vital to pushing Linux forward in a number of ways.
So much anger is coming from the monday morning quarterbacks about something they don't understand. By all means, they should all go shut up and contribute to uselessd and shape it to be what they want. In the end, if it's better, it will get adopted. The big players are clearly not too proud to pick the best solution even if it's not their own, and there's plenty of prior examples of it. Debian and Ubuntu picking systemd, and Red Hat abandoning qpidd for RabbitMQ are good examples in the recent past. Nothing says that can't happen to uselessd too.
Yelling and hand waving about systemd isn't going to do anything.
+1 lol
Agreed. I switched to FreeBSD a few months ago. Anything that is linux, is strictly virtual and it's not debian, ubuntu or red hat related. I'm really not liking systemd. Bad vibes for the future.
integrated web browser to read logs. not sure how systemd settings are currently stored, maybe its dsettings or whatever, but systemd can embrace and extend that
If he believes he's going to take on Linus and the kernel developers, stamp his feet and take over the Linux landscape he's going to lose badly.
I am hoping for that to happen. It is basically the only thing that can still stop this madness at this time.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
I'm only waiting for them to create systemd-libc, systemd-cc, systemd-++, systemd-fdisk, and whatever else they'll need to create their own OS. Once they're gone and out the door, we can get back to sanity and real software. I'm so sick of this fadware/hipsterware plaguing GNU/Linux.
-- But, doctor, why are these men out down there with those pitchforks and torches?
-- They're trying to burn down this castle in order to kill everyone inside.
-- But why? Don't they appreciate your inventions? Your research? Can't they see how many lives would be saved?
-- They are blinded by fear; they can only see dangers and monsters which exist only in their disturbed minds.
-- What we're gonna do now?
-- Keep calm and get the creature ready. Make sure he does not get too excited, as that would make him very hard to manage. The balloon is almost full... we shall take off in a few minutes. Please go now.
-- Sure, Doctor Frankenstein.
Yeah I going to really miss my bash script based terminal... these new binary terminals are really terrible. /sarcasm
Perhaps they should just drop the 'd' in the name and write their own kernel to go along with their... thing. Voila, no more problems with ill-tempered Linux kernel developers! And they could all integrate it in one huge, funky ball o' bits!
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
Never mind using the word, cabal. I'm sure Mr. Poettering is very aware of its scary overtones and, in a mis-placed sense of mischief, he's push everyone's buttons with it.
But have you read the proposal there? It looks like "the cabal" means to have systemd as a virtual-box-hypervisor-like entity, able to select OS and version per login. Am I mis-reading something? This looks like 2nd System Effect gone absolutely berserk! I'll have to re-read the article to make sure his occasionally crusty English hasn't kept me from understanding something positive that "most users" really want whether they know it yet or not.
cheers...ank
Still hoping for Gentle Treatment...
that an OS architecture that dated from the 1970's was actually totally elite
Well, humans needed to breathe in 1970s, and they need to breathe now. So just because something is from the 1970s clearly cannot be held against that. In fact, we have 44 years (ignoring pre-1970 of course) of evidence that stopping to breathe is a bad idea, and 44 years of evidence about which parts of UNIX philosophy are applicable when and why.
Now your long post didn't address any single problem with the UNIX philosophy. Apple clearly showed that integration for desktop users is not impossible with UNIX, and UNIX philosophy is not even against a user exposed integrated interface.
I will be the first to admit that at times UNIX philosophy is not applicable - e.g. ZFS combining LVM, raid and filesystem in one single monolithic feature is against the UNIX philosophy. But it solves many real problems, without introducing new ones. And it wasn't considered stable for just under a decade after release.
Systemd was considered "stable" within an year or 2. The parts where it breaks UNIX philosophy are clearly where it is NOT good to break it, with a nice bug to show for it.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
So a bug in systemd now (or botched update) would be a totally unresolvable, because Linux box wouldn't even have proper console then?
Very very sane plan. Kudos, systemd. /s
All hope abandon ye who enter here.
Please join my group.... :-)
https://www.facebook.com/group...
It's not bloated enough until it starts his own emacs :)
Proposal for a debian fork: http://youtu.be/N18rNxe3Z-o
Debian is an unincorporated association. It has customs, bylaws, and trade practices.
A lawsuit is needed.
That was an action taken in bad faith for the financial and strategic gain of the aforementioned companies.
Now your long post didn't address any single problem with the UNIX philosophy. Apple clearly showed that integration for desktop users is not impossible with UNIX, and UNIX philosophy is not even against a user exposed integrated interface.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L... Refactor your whining and now start complaining how they are turning your linux into Mac OSuXXorz...
Anyway my point is that the above poster made an utterly huge newbie mistake that showed he's a bit of a backyard dabbler instead of someone that has seen X in action in a workplace - he was pointing out a limitation that does not exist and saying that he can solve that non-problem. I'd like Wayland to be nice but these guys need to get out of their "X sux" rut and take a look at why people actually use the thing. There's been a dozen failed dumb framebuffer projects due to not making it work in such a way that developers were interested in writing or porting software for it, especially since it's a lot harder writing stuff for a supposedly very fast dumb framebuffer than something with a bit more complexity that handles a lot of output instead of the application having to do it.
I'll give you a quote from the often quoted on Wayland Daniel Stone - "Multiple screens - that's an application problem". Bit of a worry, however others in the project may have very different views, he wants it for phones after all, so it won't necessarily end up stuck that way. Wayland may expand to provide enough stuff to be useful despite some of those things being initially dismissed as "crufty X stuff".
For someone not actually involved in the development of either that's a pretty weird thing to write.
While some among the core developers of systemd believe that they are smarter and better than everyone else in the world.
I'm relying on the very vocal detractors of systemd to be sufficiently competent to install the init system of their choice because they are adopting the position of saying they are smarter and better than the developers of systemd.
No, we're adopting the position of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and "provide your supposedly better solution as an alternative and let it win on its merits".
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" - J. Khrishnamurti (a sick society of sockpuppeteers like http://slashdot.org/~BarbaraHu... = http://slashdot.org/~tomhudson... = http://slashdot.org/~Barbara%2... )
powershelld
UNIX was a 'small, lightweight' system with small utilities surrounding it to perform specific tasks. Not a large monolithic monstrosity? It may be time to look into BSD instead of Linux as a stable ecosystem. Change for a reason that is well demonstrated is one thing, change for the sake of change is another. This sounds like change looking for a reason to be.
... "When you pry the source from my cold dead hands."
(we've recently moved from a RH contract to an Oracle Linux contract, and Oracle will bend over backwards to keep us happy..)
- This sig deliberately left blank. Nothing to see, move along.
In fact GIMP's dependency on GNOME is optional, and GIMP is innocent in itself.
For example, you can install GIMP without being locked into GNOME in Gentoo.
lol
He was asking if linux has a dependency on redhat. The only way redhat can force their changes on an unwilling linux userbase is if that userbase depends on redhat. So has it depended on redhat? If not in the past then why does it now?
When Linux was first introduced, multiple VTs were revolutionary compared to MS-DOS. They have hardly changed since then. Now with move to user space, it would be much easier for anyone, including myself, to innovate. Multiple selection? Support for graphics embedded in command line stream? This has just become much more practical to implement.
The Linux kernel is monolithic in design but modular in architecture.
Systemd is the opposite and is the wrong way to approach it.
Also in regards to kernel development, monolith is a overloaded term.
A microkernel shoves as much crap into user space as it can, a monolithic kernel does not. It doesn't mean its architecture has to be monolithic, the Linux kernel is proof of that.
For all of the different processes in systemd, they might as well be shoved in one process because that is exactly the effect that it gives having all its processes tightly coupled to each other.
If people could pull out BS like the logger and login and seamlessly add their own sane processes, the complaints would mostly disappear. Instead, you have to take the binary logger and use that buggy mess to forward it to a sane text logger.
If you systemd apologists can't see how any of this is poor design and detrimental to linux you simply lack the technical knowledge and should stop white knighting for that idiot poettering.