Yes I read it, as did Paul Verhoeven, which is why he made the film such a piss-take of the book: he hated the way Heinlein idolises fascist ideas too.
And in re the societal and cultural ideas in Heinlein's books: they blow chunks too. He's far too much up the arse of the survivalist type: the lone hero who's self sufficient and just needs a gun to shoot those durn tax collectors. This means he tends to present a weird view of society, where power becomes the main focus of individual-societal interaction. This at times borders on the fascist.
In ST they exalt the human race above that of the aliens they fight. The government is centralized and autocratic, and controlled by a dictatorship of a tiny minority of veterans. There is massive economic and social regimentation: the "citizen" vs. the "civilian". I don't recall any opposition in the book, but I wonder whether Rico would have been called on to suppress it? Sounds quite fascist to me.
but I suspect the fascist tone is not intended in praise but is a p**s take of the first order
I suspect not. Heinlein's problem has always been that he idolises isolationists: people who nowadays go and live in cabins in the middle of nowhere taking more weaponry with them than Oliver North ever dreamed of, which they use to take potshots at tax collectors. He falls for the "we're self-sufficient" line these people put out (oh yeah, then who made that AK?)
He has little or no understanding of how complex the contract between individuals and society is, and thus manages to reduce it to a lot of things that sound very very like fascism. Starship Troopers falls prey to this: I could honestly not detect a single note of ironic intention in the book. He really believed some of the lines that the film played for laughs ("Violence has solved more problems..." being a good example).
This book is one of the worst pieces of rubbish it has ever been my misfortune to read. Heinlein is generally a terrible author (try, or rather don't, the fascist paen Starship Troopers or the right-wing gun-nut's wet dream The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress), but he surpasses himself in this caca. From the lame characterisation (the old guy who lives with 3 young girls who fulfil his every whim is a particularly nauseating piece of authorial fantasy) to the thin psychedelia-wannabe plot, this book fails on all points to entertain. This is neither a flame nor a troll, it is my honest opinion.
If you want real golden sci-fi, read Phillip K Dick or Zelazny or Gene Wolfe or Asimov or anyone but Heinlein!
And today we remember Slashdot 50 years ago, with this post:
There has been a lot of uproar about Nucular power, has anyone actualy seen any harm from this yet? Medicaly I mean?
Ah, how innocent and naive. Aren't we lucky that nowadays people thoroughly test irreversable environmental changes before they do them? Aren't we?
Re:GM food is not a good idea yet
on
Golden Rice
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· Score: 1
I agree... It seems that way too many of the posts on nuclear power are taking the "Jurassic Park" route, where any kind of new power generation will result in horrible earth-shattering consequences for the main characters.
Of course, seeing as how the "main characters" in this little drama are people freezing to death, maybe they'd rather have some power then listen to everyone and his grandmother bullshit on about how dangerous these stations may be in theory.
You want to find out how dangerous it is? Build the stations. Either they're going to live or they're going to die. But at least then we'll find out whether nuclear power is bad for humans or not.
Christ on a crutch... with the way this topic has been going, you'd think this was a TV movie. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go hide in an underground shelter to avoid the latest Chernobyl disaster...whoops...errr
Hallmark cards are a bunch of trite rubbish. I can't believe you think they are "well worded literature". Either you are trolling or you should read more books.
Wrong answer - bong! Thank you for playing. The Three Laws were in the original stories --- right the way back to Runaround. The law that got added later (and forced an amendment to be made to each of the original 3) was the Zeroth Law. Kinda like the way thermodynamics progresses, really.
What utter BS. No-one's gonna build a good, free wordprocessor on top of Mozilla. Hell, Netscape couldn't even build a good, free web browser on top of Mozilla.
I think I'm just thankfull that I don't know how to do that.
I dunno about this --- it seems to me that if you can do this, you know enough to know how not to do it as well. Kinda like, after watching "Quake Done Quick With A Vengeance", I knew that I didn't want to deathmatch the authors.
Shakespeare (as with any centuries old author) spelt words differently every time he used them
Right guys, keep it quiet, but there's a lot of them centuries old authors posting here. It's even possible that CmdrTaco is one. Are we in the middle of some literary-zombie uprising here?
Re:Silmarillion, Seven Percent Solution, and other
on
Dune: House Harkonnen
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· Score: 1
Ah, the Man-Kzin wars: interesting. IMHO the reason they succeeded was because Niven's Known Space was always about reader participation. He loved it when someone worked out that Bey Shaeffer couldn't have survived Neutron Star; he lapped up the guys 'n' gals who calculated the tensile strength of scrith.
But some works/universes have always seemed more personal: they can't be detached from the author at all. I'd tend to put Dune in the latter group (tho' it'd be dead tricky for me to defend that:)
I personally can't stand "Nightfall" the book (and, yes, I have tried it). To me, "Nightfall" the short story was stunning - a smash "twist in the tail" piece of short story writing. There just wasn't anything else to it though - it doesn't have the makings of a novel, and the "novel" proved it!
government intervention is not required to prevent employer abuse of employees
It's really this (small) part of your comment I'd like to reply to.
Yes, government regulation didn't stop child labour - a lot of complex things acted together to do that. But I disagree that it wouldn't come back if the regs were removed, at least in all countries - cf the row over who makes Nike shoes. Wouldn't it have been better if we could have skipped the (dangerous, unpleasant, life-threatening) things people had to do to get the government regs in place?
Possibly a little OT, but have you ever read The Road To Wigan Pier (Orwell)?
Hold on...computer software fucks up and throws the result of a ballot, therefore we should use more computers in future? Check your logic, boy, 'cos it looks broken from here.
You'll probably have read a lot of what I'm about to say: I do hope you don't think I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs...
Niven's other "Known Space" stuff: World of Ptaavs, Neutron Star, Protector, Tales of Known Space, A Gift From Earth & The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton? (Personally, I don't like the newer stuff, Ringworld Engineers/Throne and all the Man-Kzin War rip^H^H^Hspin-offs)
Gotta read some Asimov: Foundation, Foundation and Empire, Second Foundation, The Caves of Steel, The Naked Sun, The Robots of Dawn.
Philip K Dick: A Scanner Darkly, all his short stories, Ubik, Dr Bloodmoney, The Man In The High Castle [stops listing Phil Dick stuff by main force]
Over here in Blighty, there's a series of books been published by Millennium called "SF Masterworks". They do exactly what it says on the tin: buy all of them.
Ursula Le Guin: The Dispossessed, The Left Hand of Darkness
E E 'Doc' Smith: start on Galactic Patrol (yes, I know it says it's number 3 in the series, but trust me), then do Grey [sic] Lensman, Second Stage Lensmen, Children of the Lens, then go back for Triplanetary and First Lensman, then if you can be arsed read Masters of The Vortex, but prepare to be disappointed
Slightly offtopic, but Fritz Leiber: all the Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stuff: Swords... and Deviltry, against Death, in the Mist, Against Wizardry, of Lankhmar, and Ice Magic, The Knight and Knave of.
"Market" as in "The market share of Linux is growing at the expense of Windows". Stop thinking about the market and watch how quickly Linux becomes yesterday's news.
Slashdot Mirror
Yes I read it, as did Paul Verhoeven, which is why he made the film such a piss-take of the book: he hated the way Heinlein idolises fascist ideas too.
Hey, Kissinger's won the Nobel Peace Prize.
And in re the societal and cultural ideas in Heinlein's books: they blow chunks too. He's far too much up the arse of the survivalist type: the lone hero who's self sufficient and just needs a gun to shoot those durn tax collectors. This means he tends to present a weird view of society, where power becomes the main focus of individual-societal interaction. This at times borders on the fascist.
Incorrect. It includes all of the attributes of a particular type of fascism. Fascism is a larger concept than Nazism.
In ST they exalt the human race above that of the aliens they fight. The government is centralized and autocratic, and controlled by a dictatorship of a tiny minority of veterans. There is massive economic and social regimentation: the "citizen" vs. the "civilian". I don't recall any opposition in the book, but I wonder whether Rico would have been called on to suppress it? Sounds quite fascist to me.
I suspect not. Heinlein's problem has always been that he idolises isolationists: people who nowadays go and live in cabins in the middle of nowhere taking more weaponry with them than Oliver North ever dreamed of, which they use to take potshots at tax collectors. He falls for the "we're self-sufficient" line these people put out (oh yeah, then who made that AK?)
He has little or no understanding of how complex the contract between individuals and society is, and thus manages to reduce it to a lot of things that sound very very like fascism. Starship Troopers falls prey to this: I could honestly not detect a single note of ironic intention in the book. He really believed some of the lines that the film played for laughs ("Violence has solved more problems..." being a good example).
This book is one of the worst pieces of rubbish it has ever been my misfortune to read. Heinlein is generally a terrible author (try, or rather don't, the fascist paen Starship Troopers or the right-wing gun-nut's wet dream The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress), but he surpasses himself in this caca. From the lame characterisation (the old guy who lives with 3 young girls who fulfil his every whim is a particularly nauseating piece of authorial fantasy) to the thin psychedelia-wannabe plot, this book fails on all points to entertain. This is neither a flame nor a troll, it is my honest opinion.
If you want real golden sci-fi, read Phillip K Dick or Zelazny or Gene Wolfe or Asimov or anyone but Heinlein!
I agree... It seems that way too many of the posts on nuclear power are taking the "Jurassic Park" route, where any kind of new power generation will result in horrible earth-shattering consequences for the main characters.
Of course, seeing as how the "main characters" in this little drama are people freezing to death, maybe they'd rather have some power then listen to everyone and his grandmother bullshit on about how dangerous these stations may be in theory.
You want to find out how dangerous it is? Build the stations. Either they're going to live or they're going to die. But at least then we'll find out whether nuclear power is bad for humans or not.
Christ on a crutch... with the way this topic has been going, you'd think this was a TV movie. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go hide in an underground shelter to avoid the latest Chernobyl disaster...whoops...errr
There's no way I'm smoking bacteria. Even if they are in submarines.
Hallmark cards are a bunch of trite rubbish. I can't believe you think they are "well worded literature". Either you are trolling or you should read more books.
Wrong answer - bong! Thank you for playing. The Three Laws were in the original stories --- right the way back to Runaround. The law that got added later (and forced an amendment to be made to each of the original 3) was the Zeroth Law. Kinda like the way thermodynamics progresses, really.
What utter BS. No-one's gonna build a good, free wordprocessor on top of Mozilla. Hell, Netscape couldn't even build a good, free web browser on top of Mozilla.
ICANNmembersshouldbeputina.museum. pro
EstherDysonisa
orange.aero
I dunno about this --- it seems to me that if you can do this, you know enough to know how not to do it as well. Kinda like, after watching "Quake Done Quick With A Vengeance", I knew that I didn't want to deathmatch the authors.
Right guys, keep it quiet, but there's a lot of them centuries old authors posting here. It's even possible that CmdrTaco is one. Are we in the middle of some literary-zombie uprising here?
Ah, the Man-Kzin wars: interesting. IMHO the reason they succeeded was because Niven's Known Space was always about reader participation. He loved it when someone worked out that Bey Shaeffer couldn't have survived Neutron Star; he lapped up the guys 'n' gals who calculated the tensile strength of scrith.
But some works/universes have always seemed more personal: they can't be detached from the author at all. I'd tend to put Dune in the latter group (tho' it'd be dead tricky for me to defend that :)
Random thought: Mozart's Requiem Mass, anyone?
I personally can't stand "Nightfall" the book (and, yes, I have tried it). To me, "Nightfall" the short story was stunning - a smash "twist in the tail" piece of short story writing. There just wasn't anything else to it though - it doesn't have the makings of a novel, and the "novel" proved it!
It's really this (small) part of your comment I'd like to reply to.
Yes, government regulation didn't stop child labour - a lot of complex things acted together to do that. But I disagree that it wouldn't come back if the regs were removed, at least in all countries - cf the row over who makes Nike shoes. Wouldn't it have been better if we could have skipped the (dangerous, unpleasant, life-threatening) things people had to do to get the government regs in place?
Possibly a little OT, but have you ever read The Road To Wigan Pier (Orwell)?
Hold on...computer software fucks up and throws the result of a ballot, therefore we should use more computers in future? Check your logic, boy, 'cos it looks broken from here.
Have you never seen a "high" priest in Spandex? Guess you weren't a choirboy, then.
Perl.
...if it was, we could land a flag on it.
No, we could send a probe to investigate. And we'd be making tasty soup at the same time. Win-win, no?
You'll probably have read a lot of what I'm about to say: I do hope you don't think I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs...
Niven's other "Known Space" stuff: World of Ptaavs, Neutron Star, Protector, Tales of Known Space, A Gift From Earth & The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton? (Personally, I don't like the newer stuff, Ringworld Engineers/Throne and all the Man-Kzin War rip^H^H^Hspin-offs)
Gotta read some Asimov: Foundation, Foundation and Empire, Second Foundation, The Caves of Steel, The Naked Sun, The Robots of Dawn.
Philip K Dick: A Scanner Darkly, all his short stories, Ubik, Dr Bloodmoney, The Man In The High Castle [stops listing Phil Dick stuff by main force]
Over here in Blighty, there's a series of books been published by Millennium called "SF Masterworks". They do exactly what it says on the tin: buy all of them.
Ursula Le Guin: The Dispossessed, The Left Hand of Darkness
E E 'Doc' Smith: start on Galactic Patrol (yes, I know it says it's number 3 in the series, but trust me), then do Grey [sic] Lensman, Second Stage Lensmen, Children of the Lens, then go back for Triplanetary and First Lensman, then if you can be arsed read Masters of The Vortex, but prepare to be disappointed
Slightly offtopic, but Fritz Leiber: all the Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stuff: Swords... and Deviltry, against Death, in the Mist, Against Wizardry, of Lankhmar, and Ice Magic, The Knight and Knave of.
Is that enough to keep you going?
"Market" as in "The market share of Linux is growing at the expense of Windows". Stop thinking about the market and watch how quickly Linux becomes yesterday's news.