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Linus Confirms 2.4 In December
Lothsahn was the first to write to us about the latest statement from Linus regarding the Linux 2.4 Kernel release date. His statement says that he knows of no major showstoppers, and that he's asking the major devel houses to deploy the test kernels internally and start bug testing. Early December, hopefully, for a release.
"Market" as in "The market share of Linux is growing at the expense of Windows". Stop thinking about the market and watch how quickly Linux becomes yesterday's news.
nal 11
Care to let us know which patch this is? My SMP box tends to hang every few weeks under 2.2.x (including 17). I'd love to get that patch... thanks.
Say hello to zMac.
I learned vi in about one hour when I needed to remotely edit a file on a linux machine. Arrow keys (or jkl;) are for moving, i is for inserting, cancels out of insertation, w saves, q quits, q! forces a quit without saving. Add cut, copy and paste, and that's all you need to know.
For actually word processing, there is Star Office, which is a lovely product, or, you could learn Emacs. (I haven't, but don't let that stop you =)
I believe that people forget how hard it was to learn how to use a specific program on a specific OS, and when they try to learn a new one, they are startled at how difficult it is. With all new software, its best to RTFM!
Lately I've been getting into Linux a lot more than previously; and one aspect of it that I don't seem to see much advocacy discussion about is the fact that it is so modular compared to other OS's, so the functionality upgrade path is more flexible. For example, I am not likely to get any functionality upgrades to Windows Explorer on my Win2K box until Whistler or whatever. But yesterday I upgraded my Linux box with the latest Gnome & Nautilus. Spot the difference. This applies to the Kernel too of course. Say this was MS Winux ;-) and was released as a Whole OS, then a few service packs for the bug fixes, then another whole OS, . Then we'd have been either:
waiting for the 2.4 Kernel before any of the 7.0's came out - so no-one would have the latest Gnome, XFree86 v4, etc.
or getting the kernel work rushed to make a market-driven release date.
This modular system I think is a great strength of Linux.
And of course, another point is that people are actually running real systems with 2.4 development kernels. Again - impossible in a closed source monolithic OS.
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
I haven't heard much mention of the change from ipchains to iptables. I have been waiting for the production 2.4 kernel release to update my firewall from 2.2.17 and would like to know how it works from someone who has taken the plunge already.
In an interesting twist, 2000 is ok, only locked up once while I was using it, pretty stable, but :) I like the way linux works better anyway (as far as user interaction and flexibilty). But I am feeling like criticism of 2000 flakiness is not as called for as it used to be.. In any case I'll continue on with my Unix of choice but will say that for once Micro$oft has done a good job of producing a decent product, though 2000's price tag was (and still is) unreasonable and I would never had bothered if my company did not pay for it.
it just does not support my IDE chipset correctly
nor my gamepad of choice, while linux supports
both. Who would have thought that linux would ever have better hardware support than a microsoft offering
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
yeah, but at least we don't use ROT13! :)
qvpxurnq
cheers,
Alex
Get a new version of modutils... see /Documentation/Changes
-- Erich
Slashdot reader since 1997
Ummm. what the hell are you talking about?
Have you even used a 2.4.0-test?
Cheers,
Alex
It's goal was to make a geek (Linus) happy.
I think it's safe to say that it has, is, and always will meet this goal.
However, you missed the point. The stance they were arguing from was that of "What does Linux have to do to become THE major market player?" I will readily admit that this goal isn't what Linus cares too much about. But the magazines DO (they're paid to write about things, and this is definately a "thing").
So, you are right. but that wasn;t the point they were trying to make.
t14m4t
67.5% Slashdot Pure I guess I need to work on that....
Yes.
What happened to the driving force behind the quality of open source: "thousands of eyes go over the code to find bugs".
You think this ever was true ? I don't and nowadays there's too much out there anyway. Think it over -- 90 + n per-cent of all geeks out there do a ./configure at most and that's it.
Much more important is that those companies can test the kernel in an environment no-one could afford. It is them who do have their databases and big machines and the means to put them under heavy load. I'd be only too glad with not having the means to break the kernel as if it is good enough for them it's for sure good enough for me too.
Aside from that should it not good enough for them, then it'd stay to be a toy system to mention what it was named so often years ago.
The "9. To Do" list seems quite long!
Will the 2.4 version will be released before the "To Do" list is cleared?
Strange..
Linus does not like version control systems -- do a search on kernel traffic regarding that issue.
Ah well. You don't have to be sorry for me though. You have to be sorry for all the people who should be reading this and won't because it dosn't show up on their radar.
.um. . .clap.
Anyway, thanks for the . .
KFG
I sometimes wonder if you people read the articles these posts are attached to. Yes, this was on topic. They said that it was impossible for Linus to push back the birth of his daughter, I pointed to a historical reference of when it wasn't. Man. Get a life.
I partially agree. For some people, Linux seems like it's 'catching up' because of the USB and larger SMP capabilities. For others, tho, who need a solid web server that doesn't crash, it's MS who is 'catching up' to others with W2k. Some places don't need all the config utilties - often because with a bit of training/experience, Linux is, in some respects, easier to configure (again, not necessarily 'out of the box', but after awhile)
creation science book
Aha! So it's true! All major Linux houses are in fact hackers trying to exploit the linux kernel!
I knew it!
<grub> Reading
Down here, we're using 2.4.0 since 2.4.0-test1 on a our web farm (~ 30 web servers with apache) and it works pretty cool.
The latest reboots of these computers were to upgrade the kernel or the hardware.
We did the upgrade because the 2.2.X were very unstable under heavy load (they froze in one or two days). AFAIK, there is still a problem with the mem management of 2.2.17.
-- Benoit
Good point, and it's also inherently obvious from the first paragraph:
the long-awaited Linux 2.4 kernel for commercial release.
Commercial release? It sounds like someone is selling the Kernel, or that Linus is making money releasing the the Kernel. What the article does fail to say is that the Kernel is being released because it's _ready_, not because of market pressure or financial agony to release a product just for cash (Office).
Perhaps Linus finally grew a spine?
:)
(as referenced in a recent issue of kernel traffic)
(personally I just took the site as a humour thing though I feel the kernel is a bit overdue. but as i'm no k-hacker and just sit on the sidelines and bitch, what do I matter?
-'fester
Did you try building both as a module and otherwise? I can't get the acenic driver to work in the 2.4.0-test kernels unless I build it as a module.
Does it make you feel all yucky inside if they use business terms? Grow up for god's sake. They're using "market" to mean the segment of the world's population that will potentially use Linux 2.4. "Market" is just an a phrase that saves you the air and allows distro makers and commercial users, who DO think in business terms, to quickly understand what they're talking about.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
OK. I'm going to try this question again as me.
Please let me know how you got Q3 working with kernel 2.4test10 and XFree 4.0.1 ?
I've been trying every which way with no luck on my voodoo 3.
michael.rychlik@pp.inet.fi
Despite what your user info implies you DO have something interesting to say !
khttp was made as a result of the mindcraft tests which showed linux laging as much as 4x times the speed of NT 4.0 under IIS.
IIS was integrated into the windows kernel making it much faster. THe problem is that it made NT/IIS more unstable in the process. A direct memory call for example could create a gp fault and take down your whole website!
Did you know certain webscripts can take out a mission critical IIS server?
absolutely incredible!
THe only reason why big conservative companies chose IIS is because of mindcraft fud and ms marketing hype from the mcse employees.
khttp is for benchmarks only and apache in full ring 3 mode is better for real 24x7 production use. I strong discourage anyone from betting there jobs on khttp for a mission critical solution.
I believe Linus himself stated after the mindcraft tests that some of his developers may produce a ring 0 webserver for benchmarks if future scalability attacks continued. khttp I believe was the result.
Also the new apache 2.0 is much faster then the older 1.x series that was used during the mindcraft test over 18 months ago. With the new improvements you may not need khttp at all.
If your TV card has ATI anywhere in the name, you deserve instability for buying an ATI product.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
To tell the truth, it all depends on what you use it for. On my system with Detonator 3 NVIDIA drivers, Win2K has locked up at least a dozen times this month. Its not random instability, Win2K just doesn't like Windows Media Player 7 and OpenGL. As long as you avoid weird GL apps (not Quake but stuff like the demo programs you get on flipcode) and Media Player, then it is quite solid. Unfortunately, WMA and OpenGL are the only reasons I need Win2K so it is a little self-defeating. Methinks it needs some more elbow grease to work the kinks out.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
When's 2.6 coming out?
KFG wields a blessed +5 Insightful comment.
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
Then that's not the smartest thing to do. There is a lot of stuff in a server that you don't need in a desktop OS, a lot of stuff that isn't that you do, and optimizations that work for one, not the other. For example, on the TCP/IP stack of a desktop OS, you probably want to optimize the stack for fast response on a couple of connections, while on a server you want to be able to handle many connections consistantly. The VM management also has to be different, (on a desktop, the forground process needs a lot more CPU than the rest of the system). The sheduling quanta has to be different (WinNT Server: 120ms fixed length, WinNT workstation: 20 background 20-60 forground variable length, Linux 2.2 100ms fixed, Linux 2.4 50ms fixed, BeOS 3ms fixed), the priority management has to be different (most computation time, or interactive speed?), disk buffer management has to be different, etc. If you try to do it all (and no I'm not going in and changing these values in the Linux source code!) then you get a sub-optimal experience for all.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I can't even get the damn thing to install. It comes up with 'Loading device drivers' and then tries to load loads of drivers for hardware I don't have and then just stops, but never on the same device. There's no way to skip anything, you have to do the three finger salute. So I doubt I'll ever get the chance to see a W2K BSOD on my machine. On my dad's machine however, it installed fine first go. Weird.
Linus believes he is a 'CVS with taste'.
If that's not good enough for you, try here.
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
I'm a big fan of Linux. I am happy everytime it beats any other operating system in performance(especially an os from redmond). But, those stats you just linked to are the worst I've seen in the world. They mean absolutely nothing in the world. The linux computer had 4 to 8 times as much memory in those tests. If you are going to make a benchmark, all hardware has to be identical.
They're behind the times. Slackware was so well improved that it skipped from v4.0 to v7.0. It's currently at v7.1 and counting. Way to go Slackware for winning in the Linux Distribution Version Number War!
:).
And it might be more appropriate for them to release 2.4 in late December. What a nice *gift* that would be
Withdrawal before climax is very ineffective and those who try this are usually called "parents."
I take that back. Mandrake is at v7.2. Dammit Pat! Release release release! It's all about the high numbers!
Withdrawal before climax is very ineffective and those who try this are usually called "parents."
Did anybody else hear about the new Linux kernel having a built-in web server? I found it to be rather odd myself, but then some coworkers began getting emails about it. Anybody have any insight?
Question is, which year?
Lbh unir gbb zhpu gvzr ba lbhe unaqf...
Rod Taylor
The root of the problem is that open source software has never really had to worry about release dates before. Just about everyone who was working on it tended to be doing it in their spare time. Those who used it usually had a pretty good understanding that code done in one's spare time is not necessarily going to be completed by any given date. This new age of open source mixed with corporations causes us to have to worry about many of the same issues as traditional software companies do, including release dates, feature demand, and other nasty things that don't always jive with the "I wrote it to scratch a personal itch" mentality.
Personally, I'd rather wait for a release and know the code has been tested and is done right, rather than demand the developers set a release date, build a few binaries, run em overnight, cross their fingers, and ship.
"That's Tron. He fights for the Users."
Market? And which particular 'market' are we talking about here? Can't these people not think in business terms?
On the contrary, I would argue that a market exists regardless of price (or lack thereof). I don't think the 2.4 kernel is as major of a release to the Linux community as Win2k is to the Windows community. I think in this case the word "market" refers to an operating system market, which Linux is a part of despite the fact that it's free. Perhaps the lack of a stable 2.4.kernel (and knowing that a stable kernel should be out Real Soon Now) might sway an IT admin to choosing to stay with NT-based machines.
-- "Complacency is a far more dangerous attitude than outrage." -Naomi Littlebear
Comparing a brand new product (2.4) against NT (fairly old) is just not a fair comparison. ...
Hmm, let me take a look in my crystal ball
ups, I see bad news for MS. I guess that MS will have some trouble benchmarketing in the future, at least concerning web-performance.
I know this is a troll, but...
Have you _used_ 2.4?
Have you taken advantage of the multi-threaded TCP/IP stack? The USB support? The improved VM?
To say that this isn't helping those who choose
to run Linux at home is riduculous. That's
like saying that rack-and-pinion suspension
or power steering has no place in a consumer car.
Look at the feature list, if it's not what you want... keep running 2.2 or BSD or Mac or Windows or whatever. But the way it stands now, you better change your clothes, because your ignorance is showing.
---
RobK
Myddrin
Does anyone know if there will be support for files > 2 Gig in the 2.4 kernel? I want to set up a bioinformatics cluster, and dang if the genome isn't 3.2 gigaBases long. We will split the genome sequence into smaller chunks to make file access and database searching faster, but we need to handle monolithic big files before we can do anything. Any info is greatly appreciated. -fbj
Offtopic? Hmmm... moderators, could you pass me some of that crack? I need a hit. I, too, have noticed this piece of extreme oddness, though -- I can't hit certain web sites (nor can I hit news.giganews.com on its NNTP port) from 2.4.0-test10. Weird. Additionally, the solution listed below ("echo 0 > /proc/blah/blah") didn't work either :( ... I've been extremely impressed with 2.4.0's performance and reliability. Takes a bit longer to compile, but damned if it ain't easy to configure :)
Has anyone worked out the network oddness yet?
Read my stuff.
It needs *ONE* geek sitting up in his room at three in the morning going "Oh wow."
_______________
you may quote me
Actually, the guys at BeDope are winning here. Check out this press release
Installation instructions can be found here.
PS> You knew you were asking for this.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I've always wondered. Does Linus use CVS? I can understand him wanting to be the central relay station for any and all patches to the kernel, but how does HE manage the source? Does he have thousands of source archives of different patches on his harddrive? Does he manually diff and check in patches? Does he have only the one working copy of the kernel?! Maybe it would be easier on him if he used CVS himself, but made sure only a trusted few (him and Alan probably) had commit privleges so he could still be the grand poobah, but he'd have access to the other features (rollback to any state, automatic merging, source management, etc) of CVS.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
It needs *ONE* geek sitting up in his room at three in the morning going "Oh wow."
:)
Sorry, I just had to point this out... You do know what you're telling geeks to do, right?
_______________
you may quote me
Just because something is 'free' doesn't mean that it isn't part of a market. To have a market, all you really need is supply and demand; there is, for example, a high demand for homeless shelters in the housing market. They are part of the housing market even though those people who use the shelters don't pay for them.
Similarly, there is a market demand for Linux just as there is for Windoze and Mac OS. By market, in this context, they are referring to public/corporate (released) availability... and it was late coming it terms of the 'market schedule'.
"O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!" She chortled in her joy.
My copy arrived yesterday. I'm a happy boy :) :) :)
Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter-accusations.
Go to www.google.com and type "ppp atm linux" in the search box and hit the i'm feeling lucky button.
signatures pending - ansa@kos.to - (dont mail there)
showstopper A hardware or (especially) software bug that makes an implementation effectively unusable; one that absolutely has to be fixed before development can go on. Opposite in connotation from its original theatrical use, which refers to something stunningly *good*. I thought that was interesting anyway. Sort of like Flammable and Inflammable meaning exactly the same thing.
Dear Linus Claus:
My birthday is the 18th of December. I would appreciate it if you could release the kernel on that date. Since I'm now too old to get any good presents from my parents, and my girlfriend won't give me a present until I find out who she is and where she's been hiding, I would really like a new kernel as consolation prize.
Sincerely,
Tim
p.s. A little early is OK, too.
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
does anyone know where i could get a complete list of updates in the 2.4 kernel? in particular, the current kernel only supports semaphors in thread related apps, however i need the semaphors in certain tasks in my application. unfortunately linux can't support this(QNX on the other hand .... ). any ideas as to where i might find information like this?
hear hear!
Slashdot, come for the goatse, stay for the trolls.
Okay, if business-speak bothers you, read it as: "...the enhanced kernel, which at this point is a year behind its original schedule..."
After the 2.2 kernel took so long to release, the widely publicized plan was to move to smaller, more frequent, incremental releases. The 2.4 kernel was expected to be out by the end of 1999. That didn't happen. They're just pointing out this fact.
I think that is why they are push a little harder now. And probaly in 2002 they will be coming out 2.6 for you enjoyment pleasure to add a whole slew of features that they missed out on the last time.
..as others had pointed out, I was using the term 'Windows NT' generically, not really caring whether you used NT3.51, NT4.0 or W2k.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Actually, most distros started shipping Vim 5.7 quite a while ago. But I'm an nvi man myself.
Oh, wait...
All generalizations are false.
--
I like to watch.
Would doing this: echo 0 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn
have any effect on this setting? If it's meant to, it doesn't :( ... my kernel doesn't have CONFIG_INET_ECN set.
Smeg. I wish I could think of other troubleshooting steps -- I'm sure "it won't connect to port 80 of www.americanexpress.com or the NNTP port (forgot the number ;) at news.giganews.com" doesn't help anybody debug this.
Heh, I suppose I should also mebbe bug the kernel list instead of whining on Slashdot :). Thanks for your suggestions, though!
Read my stuff.
I didn't realize that the Linux kernel was a commercial product. When did this change? Perhaps someone from the Linux Company should have sent out a press release.
Really.....
It is really bothersome that "Mainstream Computer Media" just doesn't get it. This is still a product by hackers, for hackers. We'll put a lovely interface on it eventually and it may go consumer, but ala MacOSX the internals will always be for the hacker.
wayner@pobox.com -- Wayne A Arthurton -- www.pobox.com/~wayner
first, my post shouldn't be 100% accurate, just a a snappy reaction to the parent post. :)) tests two nearly identical dells (PowerEdge6400/700) both with 8Gigs and 4 NICs etc... TUX blows IIS 5 really away.
Second, you're wrong concerning the hardware config. There are in the Q2(quarter , not quake
Third, my point was about benchmarketing - not real world. Funnily Mindcraft has their own tests there.
Oh, and comparing the newer results of quartal 4, win2000 seemed to be really tuned to the max in all tests, they seem not to get better.
do they ever listen...
IIS is NOT in the kernel, even a little bit, really. It is a userspace series of applications that are executed in the context of one or more service accounts. (no, the account(s) does not have to be give admin priv)
IIS is faster in some cases for 2 reasons
1. IIS is highly multithreaded, Apache is not
2. IIS caches damn near every thing, Apache doesn't.
please let the kernel myth die allready
So then that makes her v2.1 or v2.2
Do not read this
No showstoppers, evil monkeys, or, I'm betting, a kernel. Judging from the LKML, there's still a LOT of bugs in it.
________________________________________
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
I do. Whenever there are hundreds of comments and I want see all the "insights".
When I have time it's on -1.
It's about improving the signal to noise ratio, at the risk of missing some good points that get modded down or that were raised by ACs.
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
thanks for listening :)
I know. That was MY point.
If you are running scsi check your termination, if IDE make sure your jumpred correctly on all devices.
Since you are not hard-frozen you might just try waiting. The setup script sometimes runs across a PCI-IRQ share config than will throw it for a loop (old bios can cause this). When it comes to the stop you describe, wait. There is a fair chance it will start moveing again after ten to fifteen minuits. After it learnes the hardware the boot time will go back down.
>>There's no way to skip anything...
F8 at boot will display the safemode options.
Um, I'm a he.
---
RobK
Myddrin
I've been running 2.4.0test10 for a while, I had just the one problem when I installed it - I no longer needed the ide2=xxx ide3=xxx appeneded to lilo - infact it wouldnt boot up with it appended.
Aside from that minor glitch it's been absolutly fine. I'm looking forward to trying DRI out when I get xfree 4 working.
I dont have any USB devices, I only have one processor, all in all 2.4.0 doesnt off that many improovements on 2.2.17.
I'd be interested in knowing what is planning to go into 2.6/3.0 though.
Or complain to the web admins concerned. Cisco have already released a fix for (at least some of) their products to fix this. ECN has the potential to be a very useful 'tool' in making best use of 'net resources but it cannot do this while some (high profile) sites reject connections which signal that they can handle ECN.
Yes, the article is done up in vapid, breathless 'IT Rag' speak designed to make a manager think their job is exciting and that they learned something important by reading the article.
The article could be summed up in a paragraph or three as:
The stable version of the Linux 2.4 kernel, which was expected to be released 4th quarter of last year, will instead likely be released this December of this year. While the 2.2 kernel is quite functional and adequate for many people's needs, the 2.4 kernel has some nice, long awaited features such as support for USB and better tuned SMP performance, along with a re-written networking stack.
Many of the SMP and networking improvements were made because NT 4 beat the Linux 2.2 kernel in some benchmarks in the beginning of 1999, and it's hoped that the improvements will avoid a repeat of that embarassment.
Several Linux distributions are prepared to release a new version as soon as the 2.4 kernel becomes available, having already prepared for its release in the current versions of their products.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
/me likes! Now I don't have to be afraid I'll get bored during Cristmas.
Thimo
--
Avoid the Gates of Hell. Use Linux!
For those of you without ROT13 try rotating the letters 13 places using a looped alphabet:).
"A little retrospection shows that although many fine, useful software systems have been designed by committees and built as part of multipart project, those software systems that have excited passionate fans are those that are the products of one or a few designing minds, great designers. Consider Unix, APL, Pascal, Modula, the Smalltalk interface, even Fortran; and contrast them with Cobol, PL/I, Algore, MVS/370, and MS-DOS."
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
What planet are you on, certainly not one with win2000 thats for sure. NT5 does not get the BSOD (i havent anyways) BUT I have had many more reboots than with NT4, yes less BSOD'S and MORE reboots. Me thinks the BSOD was too embarassing and they'd rather have the thing reboot.
try MP3's across a network and open the CDROM at the same time I crash it every time. Thank goodness its the office puter
There are none as blind as those who will not see.. (unknown)
NT 5.0, oh yes, Windows NT 2000 was also a bit late, wasn't it?
grtz
You are conflating two servers. khttpd is a static-page-only accelerator; TUX does both static and dynamic content.
-- "Ever wonder why the SAME PEOPLE make up ALL the conspiracy theories?"
Feel free to download TUX from ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/tux/Read the README file first, of course. :-)
-- "Ever wonder why the SAME PEOPLE make up ALL the conspiracy theories?"
Actually Linux is not really that much more modular than other OSs, including Win2K.
You do see lots more 'Service Pack' type releases in keeping with the release early, release often philosophy. [Athough that doesn't seem to have happened with 2.4 (grin!)]
OTOH, and I don't normally speak to credit MS, you get patches/ upgrades to IE and various other components in the same way as you get patches to Linux programs. The only difference perhaps is that what is percieved to be the core operating system on Linux does not include the GUI.
When you say that people are running real systems with 2.4 development kernels, I would have to say that you would be borderline insane to run anything that you wanted to preserve on a development system. Whilst running the latest development version of Linux is fun, it is definitely not something you should keep important data on. Some (earlier) development kernels have been known to trash filesystems. I have in the past actually contributed to a few projects when I find the limited time to do so, but any development code is kept well away from the rest of my systems.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
IIS is not integrated into the kernel. IIS supposedly serves static content faster than Apache because it does not spawn one process per connection. This eliminates the overhead associated with a large number of processes and also allows for global caching across all connections. Unfortunately, this also means that (unless you run each site in its own process space) one script error can take the whole IIS server down.
Maru
Good god, that damn dealer sold me tainted crack again. I ought to sue ;)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
"You do know what you're telling geeks to do, right? :)"
<clean interpretation>How many geeks do you know that have to be told to do this? I usually have to be told to stop and go to bed, when my wife thinks that I've been up too late.</clean interpretation>
<likely interpretation>Isn't that what pushed broadband through to the point it's at now, and will continue to push until it is ubiquitous? Porn, porn, porn, porn!</likely interpretation>
--
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
No, Linus doesn't use version control. He considered BitKeeper, but decided against it due to licensing concerns -- just as well, it's (extremely) buggy. He does the whole thing manually -- yes, it sucks.
CVS also has some serious limitations. I won't go into them here -- let's just say they exist. There are something like three projects right now working on CVS replacements to fix these things. I happen to know some of the developers of one, and wish them luck; some of the features on the drawing board are extremely nifty. Hope for a release (GPLed, of course) by the end of January.
In short, we need a VC system that doesn't suck, and don't really have one yet.
The problem is the Linux community is far from homogenous. Some people think that "success" means Linux on every desktop, or a toppling of Microsoft. Some people think success is simply building a higher-quality OS. Some people think success is spreading Free software. Others think success is scratching their itch, or getting somebody else to think "Oh cool".
But every time one faction gets any media or corporate attention, others stand up and say "Hey, you just don't *get* it. It's not about *that* it's about *this*. Duh!". Please... Linux needs whatever people want it to need, to succeed. For RedHat that might be getting a standardized UI (users are weird and like that sort of stuff), for Linus perhaps it's adding new technologies for embedded and big iron use. For Mr. Debian Hacker maybe it's maintaining a philosophically pure Free distribution. There's no one right answer, there are many.
P.S. Moderators: I would like a large Insightful with a side of Informative, hold the Redundant
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Shades of Word 3.0...I mean 6.0.
And 97 is higher than 8.0, so we'll go with Microsoft's suite, not Corel's.
Simple. Linus doesn't want it that way. I believe (i'm not involved with kernel development, or linus) that one of the reasons is that in the end, Linus controls what goes into linux, and by using just the 'patch' system, it allows him better control over what goes in and out of the kernel.
Even more likely than that, is that he likes the way he's doing it, so why change because someone ELSE wants CVS? geek stubbornness. we're all born with it.
get 0wned. irc.w30wnzj00.com
Oddly enough, that's exactly what I said.
Except of course that your last paragraph directly contradicts your first sentence.
Kernel 2.4 and daughter 3.0!
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you're right, if only for a particular segment of users. The Linux crowd seems to be experiencing some sort of schizophrenic (sp?) episode that is likely related to growing pains. Is Linux a server OS? A Desktop OS? Both? There are those that tell everyone RTFM or "it's a volunteer effort, go away". That crowd is outta touch with the part of the user base that is new to Linux and those that are evangelizing for Linux on the desktop. Like it or not, as Linux reaches more and more people, there will have to be more Windows-like support mechanisms and resources available. End-users need this kind of help and unless someone steps in to provide this help, Linux will suffer due to it's own success.
Why no CVS for linux ?
Seems I remember a big flap from O'Reilley about there only being little more than a few registry entry differances that prevent more than 10 connection to the workstation version, oh and several hundred dollars (which rarely plays into the comparison - the only conclusion one can come to is that most Msft advocates must pirate their software). And yes the 'Advanced Server' has the sliding bar for "forground application performance boost" over at the 'none' end of the scale to give network server priority over gui.
Everytime I setup RH62 it asks if you are setting up a server or workstation.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
just checking if anybodys reading - yes it's really supposed to be 'Algol'.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
But not as late as the "original" Windows, which was 3 or 4 years late.
Does anyone know if the new kernel has support for PPP over ATM? I just got my DSL service from Bellsouth in Florida and *REALLY* want to have my Linux box connecting via DSL.
As I said in my other post, I was using the term NT generically, and I just simply regard W2k as a new NT version, in the same way 2.4 is a new Linux version.
An across the board comparison, including other Unix varients AND Win2k would be interesting. Think we can leave Novell 3.11 out of the list though!
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
So, in other words: commercial testlabs, payed by companies traded on the Nasdaq, do the final testing before release? Is it just me or does this sound almost the same as Microsoft's RC testing in their own testlabs and DEFINITELY NOT like the bazaarmodel?
What happened to the driving force behind the quality of open source: "thousands of eyes go over the code to find bugs". ? Isn't that enough? I guess not...
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
/me mimes smoking a crack pipe
'Nuff said.
Redhat and Suse are both on Linux v7.0. I think that 2.4 must be a typo.
When correctly viewed,
everything is lewd.
I can tell you things about Peter Pan, and the Wizard of Oz,
THERE'S a dirty old man. - Tom Lehrer
or evil monkeys.
Does my bum look big in this?
W2K stability is large a function of the device drivers' stability.
...
I have had W2K *repeatedly* BSOD or hang - but in all but one cases, the reason was a) ZoneAlarm (firewall) or b) my TV card.
The only inexplicable hang I have had was a Real Jukebox hanger shutting down the system into hibernation mode during playback (a notebook, BTW).
On the other hand, I have seen XFree die on me, it continues to show artefacts on my notebooks display,
"2.4" is the version number of "Linux", the kernel. "Linux" the operating system (aka GNU/Linux), on the other hand, is up to version 7.x in commercial distributions (Slack, Red Hat, SuSE, Mandrake). The 7.x distributions use a 2.2.16 or so kernel or a beta 2.4 kernel.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I left it overnight once to see if it was just a loop, and nothing changed. This is just a Compaq with pretty standard hardware, nothing special.
In such a context, the best thing is not to rush the kernel. I'm still running 2.2.16 and I won't move until Linus says that the new kernel is *ready*. If it takes another year, another two years... I'm fine with it.
PPP has less to do with the kernel then the ethernet card. As for the DEC tulip, I have a Linksys 10/100MB based on that and am running test 9 (haven't had time to get 10 up on it yet) and I got it working just great with my Cable Modem at home.
Gorkman
Understanding the Linux Kernel has been released by O'Reilly
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What I think Bazman is trying to get accross is that Linux is not constrained by market dammands. The IT people you are refering to are outsiders looking in. And no, I don't think that they trully understand the fundamental ramifications of the OS, and OSS in general. Maybe they see something they want in Linux, maybe not. This is not the point of Linux, at least not to some of the Linux folk.
If IT is so miffed about Linux being late or underfeatured then they should get a clue a CONTRIBUTE!. There are plenty of organizations that could offer some development time to the writing and/or testing of Linux.
Bazman is correct in identifying that the current market mantality does not "get it".
"A few great minds are enough to endow humanity with monstrous power, but a few great hearts are not enough to make us w
The Linux 2.4 todo list can be found here, and an article detailing the new features of 2.4 is here.
Forwarding to Apache (or whatever) is most useful for complex modules that would be difficult to port to TUXapi. TUXapi is event-driven instead of connection-oriented, in order to provide maximum speed. This makes TUX modules harder to write than Apache modules. Forwarding to Apache lets you take advantage of the ease of writing Apache modules when speed for that particular module is not critical, while still allowing TUXapi modules to directly handle speed-critical tasks.
Lots more detail is available in the /. interview with Ingo Molnar.
(I'm not dissing khttpd; Arjan (author of khttpd) likes TUX. :-)
-- "Ever wonder why the SAME PEOPLE make up ALL the conspiracy theories?"
The kernel cannot, inherently, be "late to market," not only because it isn't a 'market' that it's being released to, but by * definition* it is "due" when it is done.
They don't get this. There is, and never has been, a projected 'release' date in the industry sense. There is Linus saying, " I think I can get it done by. . . "
If he does he does, if he dosn't he dosn't.
By the same token everbody who says something along the lines of "Linux needs (Office, IEX, Magically delicious Lucky Charms, etc.) to succeed," ALSO dosn't get it.
What does Linux need to succeed? Glad you asked because I'm going to TELL you what Linux needs to succeed.
It needs *ONE* geek sitting up in his room at three in the morning going "Oh wow."
And anyone who gets THAT gets *it.*
KFG
Not to mention
Linux 2.4 to go Gold....
Surely it should be
"Linux Kernel announced pretty done and stable as geeks start writing the next one."
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
What I'd like to see is how it holds up against the latest Unix competitors like solaris, AIX and *BSD variants. That's IMHO much more relevant than compare it to NT. Or do you think it's relevant to compare it to Novell 3.11 too? ;)
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Well - I've never, ever, seen a BSOD on Windows 2000 and I've never had it lock up either (really! - unlike Windows Me - grrr...) I have had the system spontaneously reboot at least twice (I think that's a hardware problem personally).
try /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn
# echo 0 >
I'm glad that a new stable version of Linux is about to hit the streets, and I'd like to see how it stacks up in networking comparisons against NT.
Maybe we can persuade MindCraft to do a rematch!
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
If December is the "projected" release date, that is certainly not the same as "confirmed." Let's not inflate hopes beyond reason here...
Modern machines boot fast enough that I finally quit bitching about that one. I think I'm optimistic because I compiled 2.4.0-test9 last night, then patched to test 10, recompiled seven or eight times tweaking various things, and it worked every time. Now if only I could figure out why mkfontdir is missing, and what frigging .deb it's in (everything google swears it's in xfonts-scalable, but that's installed).
Fuck Slashdot
Linus's point is that he has asked all the major Linux houses to (if they had not done so already -- I expect that most, like Red Hat, had already started) add their testing resources to the other testing resources (i.e. individual users and developers) already deployed. Different developers (individuals and corporations) have different strengths. Your idea that Linux corporations are not part of the bazaar, not part of the thousands of eyes, not part of the the Linux community, is, well, bizarre. :-)
The theoretical framework of the bazaar model does not imply that all the participants are not paid for their participation. Just because Eric Raymond wrote up what he thought the bazaar model looked like to him, and because his model was recognized by many people as a good description of the process, doesn't mean that his writeup was perfect, nor does it make his analysis proscriptive; it especially does not make others' misunderstandings of his model proscriptive.
Individual users have the widest variety of hardware -- we as individuals do the best job of finding the odd hardware support bug.
However, the Linux development houses have a major financial interest in stabilizing 2.4 in ways that are hard to do without more capital than the average user has, trying to find corner case bugs both by code inspection and by hammering on machines with lots of CPUs and lots of memory, using stress tests and correctness tests. I expect that all the other Linux development houses are doing this; I know for a fact that we at Red Hat are doing this and, as an example, we have (through stress testing) been helping discover elusive memory corruption issues recently, and (primarily through inspection) been discovering and fixing many filesystem race conditions. Those are just a few examples, and are only from my experience at Red Hat. I'm sure that developers from other Linux houses could talk about how their bug testing work has fit into this model as well.
Relax, we're all in this together! Sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride...
-- "Ever wonder why the SAME PEOPLE make up ALL the conspiracy theories?"
I predict it's gonna ship Platinum.
--
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Personally, I'd rather wait for a release and know the code has been tested and is done right.
I think that this version of the kernel is "done right." Most of the development now is centered around fixing bugs. When it comes out it is going to be a very stable peice of software. I'd personally ship one of the test kernels in a linux distro aimed at high end machines. I'd definatly do it before I put in an unstable compiler that wouldn't compile the kernel like Redhat did with 7.0. I personally wouldn't use such a distrobution, but many others would. 2.4.0 will be a very stable kernel. 2.2 will still be used on slower machines due to optimizations favoring new chips especially in the x86 architecture. 2.5 will probally go through some very active development early on if Linus can come to agreements with Hans reiser, and integrate other patches into the kernel. Hopefully when they are tested they will be backported as official.
--- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
some greek myth says that he kept shoving the kids back into the womb. it took the mother giving a child in there a sickle to cut off his dick... ;)
Read the article carefully... Linus wants to get 2.4 out the door before his third kid is born later this month. You can't delay THAT release date!
---
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
by January ??
Looking at how RedHat 7.0 is going, i think they might be thinking of 7.1 very soon. But how soon could it be ?
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