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Dune: House Harkonnen
I've long been a confirmed Dune addict. One of my long lasting book passions has been collecting hardcover copies of each of the original series; when I found hardcover copies, then finding 1st edition hardcover copies. So, obviously when I found out that Brian Herbert, Frank's son, and well known science fiction author Kevin J. Anderson (most noted for his Star Wars series work) were going to be doing prequels to the series, I was quite anticipatory.
If you've read Dune: House Atreides, you can imagine my chagrin. OK, some people like it (I'm looking at you, Joseph Arruda), and I understand the reasons behind it. But that book was so abysmally horrid in terms of the one-dimensional characters that I figured Dune: House Harkonnen had to be better. After all, there was no where to go but up.
A tangent: I've never been a real fan of Kevin J. Anderson's work. In terms of the Star Wars series, Timothy Zahn pretty much defined that series, IMHO. So, to be upfront, Anderson is fighting an uphill battle with me.
The meat of the book is this: It explains where Feyd comes from, talks more about his parentage, and the relationships within the Harkonnen Family, which, surprise surprise, are pretty messy. But for those who are interested in the storyline and backdrop to the entire series, there's a lot of backgrond material on how the Atreides, Harkonnen and Corrinos interrelate.
But I'm a little puzzled about why the book is entitled House Harkonnen. Granted, we get the storyline about Feyd, how Rabban gets the name "Beast"...but that's about it in the Harkonnen end of things. The other plot lines are much more interesting.
The first is continuing the development of Pardot and Liet Kynes. You found out about Liet's background, growing up, and how he becomes the new Imperial Planetologist. You get some sense of his caring for Arrakis, as well as the the continuation from the prior book to the ecological project on Arrakis. Also on Dune, you found out more about the connections between the Fremen and the Bene Gesserit.
The Caladan/Arrakis has a number of points to it, some good and some so annoying it made me want to vomit. First bad one: Prince Vernius of Ix. Yes, I like the Ix portion of the storyline, and what the nasty Bene Tleilaxu are up to. But his character, and his sister annoyed me so much that I had a hard time getting through this section. Try counting how many times Vernius says "Vermilion Hells" between this book and the former. It's astonishing. Someone should teach the prince how to curse more. Seriously, though, those two characters are some of the weakest in the entire series. The relationship between the Princess and Leto is extremely predictable and stale. The only member of the whole family that I liked, the Earl Vernius has a plotline that extends basically the length of the book...for very little return.
One of the good parts of the Atredies portion is the meeting between Jessica and Leto - that's a good foundation. The other enjoyable part is Gurney Halleck - the storyline is not "enjoyable" but it's interesting.
So, overall, mixed review. If you are a Dune fanatic, like I am, you've probably already purchased it. If you aren't a fanatic, but are interested, I'd recommend reading the original series first. If you've read and liked it, this might be worth picking up - it's a quick read, and it's fun to head back to the Realm of the Padishah Emporer. But if you thought Dune was OK, but not great - DO NOT PICK THIS UP. If you are interested though, you can grab it from ThinkGeek.
I've read _Dune: House Harkonnen_, and I thought it was a pretty enjoyable, disposable read. The characters are paper-thin, though, with little of the depth or subtlety that Frank Herbert displayed in _Dune_. The authors apparently understand this, and they make up for it with plot, plot, plot.
What I miss most from Frank Herbert's novels is the decadent political sophistication that his characters demonstrated. For example: as written by Frank Herbert, the Bene Gesserit are consummate political operatives who get their way through subtlety, finesse and infinite patience, planning generations and millennia in advance. But as written by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, the witches might as well be sledgehammer-wielding maniacs. A case in point (MINOR SPOILER ALERT) is the method by which Baron Harkonnen is "persuaded" to sire a child for the Sisterhood's breeding program. Is that the best they could do?
Another contrast: The dinner party about a third of the way through _Dune_. Told from Jessica's point of view, this scene is a masterpiece of political intrigue: with a large cast of characters all pursuing their own agendas, Frank Herbert conveys motivation for each one while establishing Jessica's credentials as a master of observation, all the while setting the stage for the coming betrayal. What compares to this in _Dune: House Harkonnen_? There is (another MINOR SPOILER) also a dinner party scene early in this book, in which one character inexplicably attacks and kills another, in order to furnish a political background for the rest of the book which is never explored, but simply stated.
Especially in his later _Dune_ novels, Frank Herbert could be too subtle for his own good, but it wouldn't hurt his son and his son's co-writer to try harder to emulate at least one of the things that made the father's writing so special.
"The deep-fried Mars bar is a symptom of a wider crisis." -- Nutritionist Ann Ralph, on the Scottish diet
The first "sequel" was so bad it became the first Sci-Fi book I've thrown away (recycled actually) in about 15 years. I'm not interested in being fooled twice. About the best I can say is that it was nice and big and hence I didn't run out of something to read when I was stuck in an airport. Someone talented at literary analysis could do a great "Why Frank Herbert was such a good writer" by noting the things that made his Dune books better than these even with similar characters, plot, settings, language etc.
Yeah, bascically the first three books are the core, and are what's really good. God Emperor is still good, but starts getting a little bit crazy. After that all bets are off, and everything just gets entirely too crazy
"Weasling out of work is important to learn; it is what separates humans from animals. Except for weasels."
You said you read it in Dutch, right? FYI - in the original English it's crysknife.
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There is no sin except stupidity -- Oscar Wilde
Lots of great books are remade every 20 years or so when there are new societal insights, directors, actors and film technology. Consider Dracula, Cleopatra, Superman, Hamlet, etc.
Rather than badmouth Lynch, I look forward to the next film interpretation.
Actually I like Lynch a lot. Though it dropped many subplots, and was too dense for those who hadn't read the book, the movie possessed "film noir" or interesting intepretation of the Dune planets.
Theoretically, if any author or collaboration of authors could be put together to handle the Butlerian Jihad, since you'd also have to handle alot of the back drop too the whole thing as well, I'd love to see something like a 3 or 5 book collaboration between good ole brian, David Drake, and Robert Jordan... that is, as soon as he finishes his own damn series. Mumble.
Old truckers never die, they just get a new peterbilt
The books are even inconsistent with themselves.
I think that was what disgusted me most about them. Not only do they ignore much of what was said in the original DUNE books, they ignore what they write as well. One example: (Yes, this is a spoiler, if you care) They go through some effort to point out several times that Gurney's sister's voicecords have been cut out so that she can't scream when being tortured. Yet, when she sees Gurney captured in the slave pits, what does she do? She screams. What gives?
There were many other things of this nature. I don't remember them in enough detail to write down, though; that one just stuck in my mind due to its sheer obviousness.
But unfortunately when it's done with all the literary dexterity of a fifteen-year-old whose apparent reading diet consists solely of Marvel Comics, it sucks. I've read Kevin Anderson's drivel and have no time for it. He has a knack for beating to death the great lines of other authors. He can also with almost no apparent effort reduce a complex and interesting character to a one-dimensional knee-jerking idiot. It's seriously doubtful that Brian Herbert adds anything to the mix; literary talent has been proven time and again to be un-inheritable. He's probably just putting his name on the cover so that it goes in the same section as his father's books.
There are a million better and more intersting books to read than the squeeze-dried castoffs of some long-dead author. Herbert's originals were greats. Read them again if you're dying for some nostalgia. But you can go to a used bookstore and randomly select twenty sci-fi greats that without a doubt knock the socks off of any lame production of Kevin Anderson.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
I read all six. Stop after the first three. That is fine. You are missing nothing thereafter. Herbert was a genius but he was erratic. It's pretty clear he was on a gravy train after that.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
Good point. The Rama series went downhill fast after they got that fruit Gentry Lee involved.
I read in the past that original Frank Herbert notes were found in a safe deposit box. These spelled out the prequels and the final book to the series. From what I read they(Brian/Kevin) were going to use only what Frank had left behind. So in essence these books should be looked at more like rough drafts from Frank Herbert than complete books from Brian/Kevin. I can't wait for the mini-series or the final book. I alwasy wondered if it was supposed to end with Chapterhouse Dune.
I've also been a huge Dune fan, to the extend that despite the lack of sustance to Dune: House Atreides, I still liked it. House Harkonnen however, just wore on me: They never stuck with one story line long enough to get much depth. Core points in the Dune story were also needlessly and seemingly endlessly repeated. It finally got to the point where after getting 3/4 of the way through the book, I just put it down and haven't picked it up since. All the short little chapters are in themselves predictable; there are no real suprises, nothing that requires much of any thought. I meet Brien Herbert at a book reading/signing a couple weeks ago, and in person he's much the same to listen to as he is to read. Will I buy the third book when it comes out? Probably only for the purpose of having the full set.
Oh, but the Benford/Bear/Brin additions to the Foundation novels are WONDERFUL!!!
I read the original Foundation series for the story (Asimov wrote great stories), but the new autors write great prose also. I really enjoyed reading Foundation++. I would recommend reading the base Foundation series (even if you get bored with it), just to get to read Foundation++.
Joe
Joe Batt Solid Design
Of course, since I never made it through the rest, maybe I'm missing the big picture here. But I'm still really excited about the SciFi miniseries that I think is due out next month.
Robots Vs. Foundation II: The Secret of Empire's Gold
Han Solo's Great Uncle's Second Cousin's Revenge
-Insert Star Trek Joke Here-
Blade Runner II: Electric Sheepalo
come for the naked robots, stay for the zombies
... or lack thereof with regards to writing Dune prequels. Much like Star Wars- the potential for going back further is there, and because it's there, greed drives people to crank out a shit product because they KNOW the masses will buy (House Atreides, Phantom Menace).
I for one have not and WILL not read anything allegedly "Dune" beyond the six books that Herbert wrote. The man put years into the development of Arrakis and the Fremen, and developed a quite remarkable political system, between the Bene Gesserit (sp?), the Tleilaxu, the Guild and the ruling class... all of that depth and detail would naturally have involved some backstory to work from, rough plot notes and so forth about where to start, what happened to bring the elements of Dune together, and so on.
The fact that Herbert did NOT write or release a book similar to House Atreides / House Harkonnen is testament to the lasting quality of a well-developed setting. The work he has done served to make the novel much more realistic and flavorful. Anderson is doing nothing more than making a quick buck with Herbert's successor's approval (as he's more than likely getting a cut).
Dune stands on its own and does NOT need this sort of backstory or exploration- it is thoroughly unnecessary and serves to corrupt the quality of Herbert's efforts.
Dune is one of my favorite novels of all time- one of the best reads of my life. And much like Star Wars, I refuse to let an unnecessary prequel by a shoddy writer tarnish what has come before- one of the greatest fictional works of the twentieth century.
First I never got the impression she bloated.. I think the Baron helped her along that path, but only because he was out to ruin her and Paul and Leto II. As for the books giving reason for his condition, that part I actually liked. If you look at it right anything he did to Aila was being done to a Bene Geserit, and hence if he "helped" her gain weight he was simply turning the curse back on her.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
When I was struck by shingles (a disease I do not recommend), the best description of the pain was the initial testing of Paul by the pain box. I have not read Dune in over twenty years, but that leapt to mind. Although people remember the intricate plotting and fascinating characters, it is the evocative writing that sets Dune apart from all other books in its universe.
So far, nothing else in that universe comes close.
I am a long time Dune reader as well. I have checked out the trailers as well and have no real opinion on the quality of the series.
What I did want to comment on was that the visuals (costumes, settings) in the trailer reminded me too much of the old Flash Gordon serials (which BTW I loved watching as a kid). The visuals in the Lynch movie were the only thing that rang authentic with the novel series. I thought the "steam engine" Navigator habitats were so right on capturing succinctly in a visual statment the aging clankiness of the Empire just ripe for revolution.
There are not too many advantages to being sane but knowing what is funny is one of them. - Kingsley Amis
I have an additional bone to pick here.
A large part of writing a novel is creating a believeable backdrop. If you've ever read essays by David Drake, or Robert Eddings, the riven codex, you'd know that most of the work in a novel is the research, and fabricating the world that the characters and events take place in.
Writing a novel in an existing world gives an auther a serious break, and allows them to focus on quality writing, quality characters, and creating a quality story within an already rich and consistant backdrop.
Think about it in terms of programming.
The backdrop is the platform on which the application runs, and the applicaion itself the novel, and the characters and what not are system resources.
New books write a new os, create new resources, and new applications every time.
Works within "foriegn" worlds are just applications doing new and interesting things with on an old and beloved platform.
-T
ps. dont hate because i cna't spel.
Old truckers never die, they just get a new peterbilt
This scares me about the most recent Dune installment, written by Herbert's son (grandson?) I hear it's pretty good, so I will probably break down and get it. Wasn't Chapterhouse finished after Herbert's death as well? I haven't heard any buzz about the Foundation books, but like you intimated, it depends on the skill of the writer to write whether or not you enjoy a book, not how well he can copy another writer's style. I have thoroughly enjoyed the Berserker stories that were written by third parties.
I wonder how much of Zelazny's last works were massaged, touched up, and just plain written by someone else? The quality of his writing had been on a downslide for several years anyway, and the second Amber series was a disappointment overall, so I don't expect much would be lost in that case through the after-editing, but I wonder how many great writers have had works trashed or rewritten beyond their original intent after their death or debilitating illness?
And just for the record, The Silmarillion was one of the most gosh-awful boring books I've read since I tried to read a dictionary. Everyone's different though.
I am a huge fan of Sci Fi/Fantasy (mostly due to the fact that I'm a permanent escapist), and I wanted to put in a few words of comparison between K.J.A and Frank Herbert.
.I am a huge Star Wars fan, and I've read each of his 'Rouge Squadron' books. They are trips into a sappy hell, reminding me more of a futuristic "Hardy Boys" than Star Wars! Almost evey chapter of his early works ends with some character speaking a runon sentance dripping with determination and grit. Annoying. And this is not limited to just this series either.
Don't get me wrong, Anderson is not a bad writer. Although he has his faults, I think that his stlye makes him very accessible for everyone. However, thats just what annoys me about him and what sets him far apart from Tolkien, Herbert, Orson Scott Card, and the like.
The absolute worst problem I have with Mr. Anderson's writing is the overwhelming reliance on cliche
KJA writes a LOT of cliche into his novels! Good lord. .
When I first read Herbert, I LOVED it because it felt like he was relating history to me. It felt like these things had already happened and he was simply recording the events. This combined with the realistic complexity of his universe made it seem so real! Tolkien gave me much the same effect in that he fills in ALL of the gray areas in his creations. Every race has a language he created just for it (He was a philologist). Both Tolkien and Herbert are similar in the amounts of time they spent mapping out their creations before writing.
Frankly, I dont want to see anyone else write within the Dune universe. You've noticed that no-one else has written within the LOTR universe (minus a few kids books I know of), and the people who HAVE expanded the Star Wars universe without George Lucas have often annoyed me. The whole process seems like putting on someone else's clothes, almost--and they certainly don't always fit right.
If only good authors lived forever!
-s
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Don't worry, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep in a giant blender.
that's what it is. Don't get me wrong. I'm definitely a fanatic, I've read the books god knows how many times, watched the film(very reluctantly), played the games, and reread the books once again. But this stuff may concern the same subject, it does not contain the spirit of Frank Herbert and that's what made the books what they were...
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
An excellent Dune resource is the Dune Encyclopedia. It has a tremendous amount of back history, and covers everything before the last couple of books.
/. from home?).
Unfortunately, I've found it to be extremely rare (it's been out of print since the late 80's, and didn't have a very large print run to begin with). I managed to get a copy find a copy in excellent condition at a garage sale for less than $20, but you'll be hard pressed to find it for less than $100 in even mediocre condition. I would give more information about it (ISBN, etc.), but I'm at work at the moment and don't have it on hand (does anyone read
If you can find this book, it's a must-have for any Dune addict. (Hemos, if you don't have this one, you owe it to yourself to find it)
I have seen on the SCIFI channel that they are producing the TV series. It seems like they are keeping it pretty close to the books. The original movie was hard for most to follow, unless you had read the books. I hope this book leads to better reading than the last. ThinkGeek.
personally i think this sort of thing is bizarre. I write. nothing you folks can read but if i were to ever kick the bucket and my child wanted to complete my work for me i would come back from the grave and throttle them. first i'd be disappointed that they couldn't come up with their own ideas. second i'd be pissed that they felt they could do as well as i.
on long stories. I love long stories in science fiction. Dune and Foundation really sated my appetite for sometime. I just love seeing the references back and the foreshadowing of the other books. its obvious but its so much fun to think to yourself "wow i know who's about to appear on the next page" and then turn the page and there is a character or a reference to a character that you practically slept with for a week while reading the first book (if it actually takes you that long to read it) thats why i love those long sotries with recurrin g characters and the children of characters appearing in and out of the stories. the problem with herberts son doing Dune. by his doing it he changes the characters and the people i expect to be familiar are like some kind of pod-person.
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Frank was the bomb. This....well...probably isn't.
Brian Herbert and Anderson obviously spent a lot of time studying Frank's style
but they didn't succeed worth shit.
I'm still trying to get the taste of that 1st book out of my mouth.
Kevin Anderson, on the other hand, is just not that good a writer, and neither is Brian Herbert. I have read a few of the solo books of both and can confidently say that I have no interest in reading anything they collaborate on. Sudanna, Sudanna, for example, was amusing, but eminently forgettable. Blindfold was an easier read, but a very generic piece of sci-fi. Of course the people who wrote reviews at Amazon loved them.
Personally I think Candle by John Barnes (which was sort of reviewed here last week) was better than anything by either of these two authors, and Barnes might have the potential to be as much of a classic in his time as Frank Herbert is.
Writing is the only socially acceptable form of schizophrenia. (E. L. Doctorow)
--
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I was very disappointed with the use of those zap boxes, rather than a good, old fashioned crysknife. I was impressed by the shields, tho'
I also wonder if they will still make the worms look like giant phalluses...
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
They did not detect him in the no-ship with powers it was broken he was phasing in and out.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
I'm reading this book right now, and I found a rather large discontinuity in House Harkonnen.. When Liet decides to go to Salusa with Vernius, he meets Gurney. Well, why doesn't that relationship come out in Dune, when Gurney meets the Planetologist when the Atreides take over Arrakis? I liked the book despite the fact that is INDEED not the style of Frank. Even still it continues some important parts of the back story. The Ginaz information was the most interesting, next to Liet's journies.
I read House Atreides and yeah, it sucked. Brian Herbert and Anderson obviously spent a lot of time studying Frank's style, but they got precious little of his substance. Frank Herbert was a passionate and educated ecologist, as strong a scientist in his own right as Asimov and Clarke (regardless of what you think of their writing). The new books (I haven't read "Harkonnen" yet, nor do I plan to) have people acting and talking similarly, but with little coherent motivation.
:) His son's a sorry hack, though, and Dune isn't the sum total of his work.
Also, who really gives a rat's ass? Dune is a messiah story. Writing prequels would be like writing prequels to the Bible. Who cares how Joseph and Mary met? Who their parents were?
Of course, some people do, and these people are buying the new book. But I suspect that most people who buy these books are pining for the old days, wishing Herbert himself had continued the Dune series. My answer: go read something else of Frank's. Dragon in the Sea/Under Pressure, The Green Brain, Hellstrom's Hive, The Sanataroga Barrier, The Eyes of Heisenburg. Frank wrote many great novels, and there's something to learn from each of them.
Also, notice my sig - I love Frank Herbert.
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
IMHO, novels are defined by the author who wrote them.
In that case, what do you think of Brian Herbert's plan to finish his father's last _Dune_ novel, based on his recently-discovered notes? Will that book be "defined" by the father or the son?
"The deep-fried Mars bar is a symptom of a wider crisis." -- Nutritionist Ann Ralph, on the Scottish diet
Dammit, I previewed, too. Should be Santaroga Barrier. Very interesting novel about ecological and psychological dependence.
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
Tell me of your home world Usell (sp?)
I can't wait to check out the miniseries, but I think the GLOWING blue eyes of the Fremen are going to drive me batty. I think actual "blue within blue" would be so much more disconcerting than a silly neon-eyeball special effect. In all but the best light levels, "blue within blue" eyes would turn the eyes into black pits....creepy. I can understand the movie makers wanting to make sure we get it, but man, turn the volume down.
I'm a little afraid that much of this series is going to suffer a similar problem of taking what are supposed to be subtleties, turning up the volume, and hammering them into us repeatedly.
May the God-Emporer save us from catering to those with short attention spans and little imagination.
~~Galen~~
it seems that the series will be a visual masterpiece, nothing like the horrible David Lynch adaptation... The director of photography for the new series, Vittorio Storaro, is widely known as "the master of color" - and I think this is justified - so the film will probably be beyond eye candy
1. Not everyone thinks the David Lynch adaptation was horrible (of course, some people are so enamored of Dune that they'll watch/buy anything with the name... [raises hand])
2. "the master of color" -- so that means the Fremen now get blue glowing eyes like indiglo watches?! How colorful is the desert?
I was actually thinking of picking up the new Dune book today at the bookstore, but not for $28 dollars! (Not even for $20...). Instead, I got a DVD for $10. Maybe that's why I shop at Half-Price books a lot...
The first Dune prequel was entertaining, and irrestible because it was Dune, but a very, very light and quick read with little to no suspense. But I still liked it.
--- Where's my X.400 protocol decoder?
while it's true that these Dune boooks lack the depth, insight, and conviction of Frank Herbert, they weren't written by Frank Herbert.
the whole thing reminds me of Larry Niven and his Man-Kzin War series - his stories are undoubtedly the best of the series, but by allowing (in Niven's case) other authors to contribute to the whole world-building process, new writing styles and ideas and points of view make the whole thing much more rich.
My two-line review on House:Atreides and House:Harkonnen: If you're looking for another Frank Herbert masterpiece, you'll be disappointed. If you would enjoy exploring the Dune universe through the eyes of two different authors, give them a read.
for what it's worth, i liked them.
It is an observation that in general books produced not by the original authors aren't as good as the original ones. You may suppose this is becuase of puritanical reasons. It isn't really. I have tried to read Benford/Bear/Brin continuations of Foundation, as well as Lee/Clarke's continuation of Rama. (Why do you think I actually mentioned them? Becuase I tried!) Gave up halfway - not worth the effort. But YMMV.
The really tragic thing here is how little understanding of the history is shown in the first book, let alone direct contradictions such as the bull which kills the first Duke Leto not being killed in the arena by his son.
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Have you heard there is a Sci-Fi channel "Dune" series coming out? The previews look like it is filled with special effects, and at least one "Velvita" level cheesy line.
The Makers look the best I have ever seen them, much better than the movie.
I remember watching the movie, and thinking it was edited poorly and that it sucked. Then I watched the long version, and I remember thinking it was edited poorly, sucked and was sucking too long.
-Gando
--Fac Iustum Nec Time-- --Veritas Prevalibit--
My question is this: How are spin-off books written? Do the spin-off authors even talk to the original authors or do they just read the originals and write what they feel like? I'm tossed up between the purist camp of only reading the originals and the I just want to find out more about this and I don't care if it's crap camp.
I got the impression he was fully phased when they detected him. Still the issue of their being able to detect him mentally and at such range is well beyond what you get from the real Dune novels. I was a little annoyed even by the mind tricks played upon the Baron and his guards on the Sister's homeworld... too me they were way too strong... I don't remember anything from the original series hinting at the powers of mental projection that was exhibited by Sisters in HH. The real fault of the books is that the authors seem to endow major "groups" with powers/abilities not seen later in the true Dune novels. With some of what these authors endow upon their "favorites" its hard to imagine portions of Dune's later history from ever occuring.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
2.) "Vermillion" has two L's, Hemos. Yes, the phrase is annoying, but my sense of irony refuses to let you criticize it before you can spell it. ;)
That is all.
-Omar
Another well-known spin-off of the original series is the Dune Encyclopedia. Impossible to get nowadays, but well worth a read if you're a fan. You can sometimes come across it at swap meets or library sales.
There's also a core of fine fan fiction, such as Revenant of Dune, and some pretty good stuff at Usul's fandom page.
And for those of you old-skool enough to be into MU*s, there's an excellent Dune-based MUSH at dune3.fremen.org 4201, with an informative webpage at www.fremen.org/muds/dune3/.
THS
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THS
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"Poor girl looks as confused as a blind lesbian in a fish market." - Simon R. Green
DUNE was worth reading, and could be argued to be a masterpiece.
DUNE MESSIAH was a halfway descent sequal.
CHILDREN OF DUNE would have been a descent place to stop, with Paul's end and the children taking over.
GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE can be summed up like this: "I'm a big slug, and I have an army of amazons, and I'm so smart I keep reincarnating the same guy so he can take me by surprise and kill me."
Needless to stay, I stopped after the fourth book. Sci Fi is about what you write, not how you write it--and DUNE degenerated from saying something interesting to being, well, something that I can't say in polite company.
It's sad when Sci Fi authors do this. Of late, Anne McCaffrey (among others, I'm sure) has been more than guilty of this little sin.
What the listing does not show is that the person who put flesh on the bones was Guy Gavriel Kay. I much prefer his own writing, and the original writing of J.R.R., but the Silmarillion is a worthy contribution.
Perhaps the standard we should use is not "Does this match the best of the original author's writings?", but instead, "Does this further my understanding of this universe, and do I enjoy this time in it?" That said, most continuations don't meet even the lesser criteria.
As a reader, I would gladly accept any truly well written continuations, authorized or not. My favorite example of one that's well written is Nicholas Meyer's The Seven Percent Solution, although his other offerings to the Holmes ouvre are not quite so fine. Yes, I have read the Benford/Bear/Brin works, and I did not enjoy them as I enjoyed Asimov's Foundation.
I enjoyed them, and that is enough for me.
Oh I had not thought of David Drake but yes he could do a very good job. Also I just thought Jerry Pournelle would also be really good. Ok here is my, worthless, proposal. Neal tells us how the AIs came into being and why they hate humans then David Drake, Robert Jordan, and Jerry Pournelle each gives us one book during the war. Have not read the other author mentioned I should look him up. That would be very cool
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
"Dune" isn't a christ story, it's a 'the one' story. It doesn't matter WHO is the subject, it could be Tommy, Neo, Connor, etc...
Remember, Moses was one, that's a HELLUVA long time before Christ...
"Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
I love Dune. From the moment I first dug it out of the school library some 14 years ago I have loved it - the book contains some truly great stuff; characters, plot, wierd 'n' kooky science fiction stuff. It has it all. Some of the best science fiction ever written, it would definitely come in my top five sci-fi (along with Neuromancer, Excession, The Nanoflower and Consider Phlebas).
(The film, despite what many people think, is verging on a masterpiece although I admit that it bastardises so much of the book. I guess I just like David Lynch movies.
"And he will know, he'll know that it is I, Baron Valdimir Harkonnen who encompasses his doom! Muah ha ha ha ha haaaaa!" - It just doesn't get any better than that.)
Then I read 'Dune Messiah' and it wasn't bad. It had some of the same plotting elements but lacked the gritty nastiness and sheer beauty of Dune. I decided not to read any of the rest after 'God Emperor of Dune', it sucked: Unfortunately Frank Herbert just lost the suspension-of-disbelief element for me with the 'Golden Way', just a rehash of the Kweisatz Hadderach elements already discussed and in no way as good. (I did like the revelation that the bene tleilaxu created their own supreme being who ultimately committed suicide, as of course, does Paul.)
Elgon
A tangent: I've never been a real fan of Kevin J. Anderson's work. In terms of the Star Wars series, Timothy Zahn pretty much defined that series, IMHO. So, to be upfront, Anderson is fighting an uphill battle with me
Tell it, brother! Anderson's stuff stinks of trying to emulate Zahn and failing. Miserably. When I saw Kevin's name on this book, I immediatly thought back to his Star Wars books.
Anderson's Admerial Dallaa is a far cry from the kick-butt strategy of Zahn's Thrawn.
------
Not a typewriter
ok, I admit I did not read House Harkonnen, but I read House Atreides. The thing is, it lacks the depth of any of the real Dune books. As a stand alone adventure story it's ok, but it's by no means in the same league as the original books. That said, I will probably read House Harkonnen, for no other reason than to make another journey into the Dune Universe.
The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all, is the person who argues with him.
I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
Thalia
Granted, Frank Herbert wasn't the greatest writer of all time. Like many science fiction authors, his ideas were sometimes better than his execution. The rest of the Dune series, however, is fascinating. If you stopped after Dune Messiah I don't blame you - it's easily the weakest of the 6. Many people don't know that he wrote the first 3 books more or less at the same time. He's written (in the intro to Children of Dune, and elsewhere) that he spent 6 years researching and plotting the story before he laid pen to paper to begin writing. I think this shows - Messiah feels a little like a stepping stone to Children.
The last 3 are very different. God Emperor of Dune, for all its faults, is one of the most fascinating character studies ever put to paper. It's a good book, too, and worth a read. The last 2 focus very strongly on the Bene Gesserit, and make up somewhat for the 2D female characters in the first 3 books.
No one before or since Frank Herbert has realized such a coherent (I don't mean, of course, "correct") vision of the future. His books are political, economic, ecological, religious. Most science fiction ignores this as background noise, but he correctly believes that it drives character motivation to a great degree.
So yeah, leave Messiah alone. I re-read the series earlier this year, and I couldn't get through more than 40 pages of it. So I skipped it. Children is better. And I think you owe it to yourself to at least give God Emperor a try.
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
I'll say yes to that. It has to be enjoyable, preferably with the same style and extending its universe in a coherent fashion. An example is Dan Simmons' Hyperion, and Fall of Hyperion. Two books of wholly different styles, but hanging together nicely. I can't imagine anyone else coming in to write consistently within that universe.
And the baron being a fitness freak seems just a cheap way to think of a Bene Gesserit punishment...
--
Americans are bred for stupidity.
First, I just have to say that even though many think the Dune sequels were not
:-P If you're a real Dune fanatic, just check these
very good, I find the entire DC quite good. Though Dune Messiah was somewhat
thin, I thought Children of Dune was very good, setting up the rest of the
Chronicles perfectly. God Emperor was a bit slow, but had lots of good
philosophy. The last two, which are really just one book (Heretics &
Chapterhouse), are superior to the original in my opinion. I think the original
Dune didn't really even start to expound upon the main themes of the DC, mainly
what it means to be _human_ and the constant need for change in order for
humanity to survive. It's not until after CoD what we get to the Golden Path,
the Scattering, etc, which are essential to DC's overall theme. And the last
two feature the Bene Gesserit, who have become less than human in order to save
humanity. Very very good stuff.
As for the prequels... blech. Not only are the characterizations paper-thin,
there's huge inconsistencies with the rest of the DC. Yes, FH had some within
his own world as well, but none so glaring. The BG as protrayed in the prequels
have powers way beyond what was presented in the DC. Not to mention there was
no such thing as no-technology (no-ships etc) until the time of the God
Emperor. There's also many other events such as characters meeting in H:A and
H:H who meet for the first time in Dune. Maybe there'll be some kind of time-
warp in the next prequel.
out from the library if you have to. Don't give money to BH and KJA for
bastardizing FH's works.
your melange may vary????
John Carmack fan, browsing at +5 since 1999.
It has been many years since I've read the book, and though the concepts may all still be in my cavernous skull, the spelling has gone the way of the dodo.
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
On the same lines you could argue you want to ignore any version of Linux not written by Linus alone, although collaboration might have improved it a bit.
--
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
The Baron was a sick, twisted individual who ended up having sex with his own mother-- then killing her. Shortly thereafter, he began to entertain and explore his latent homosexuality, and continue his slide into decadence.
After picking up on some of the non-events in the prequels, I'm going to have to give them a pass. I loved the hell out of Dune, and I don't want to see it debased with silly prequel tripe.
Five tons of flax.
No-ships? In the Dune prequels? According to the original series, no-[ships/chambers] were developed during the reign of the God-Emperor, long after Paul was dead. I was thinking of reading these, but now I know for certain that it would be a mistake.
-NOC Monkey (OOK!) Experience is what allows you to recognize a mistake the second time you make it.
--Ty
What is the plural of 'Harkonnen'?
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
I myself will have to reread the last few of the original series to determine when noships truly first appreared... however in this prequel the technology is employed by the Harkonnens via a renegade Ixian...
I did not mind the no-ship (singular) being in this prequel, however its the B.G.s that I take issue with.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Caveat: thought Dune was excellent, couldn't make it through the sequels, so I'm really only talking about the first (and IMO only) book.
I personally can't stand "Nightfall" the book (and, yes, I have tried it). To me, "Nightfall" the short story was stunning - a smash "twist in the tail" piece of short story writing. There just wasn't anything else to it though - it doesn't have the makings of a novel, and the "novel" proved it!
nal 11
Ah, the Man-Kzin wars: interesting. IMHO the reason they succeeded was because Niven's Known Space was always about reader participation. He loved it when someone worked out that Bey Shaeffer couldn't have survived Neutron Star; he lapped up the guys 'n' gals who calculated the tensile strength of scrith.
But some works/universes have always seemed more personal: they can't be detached from the author at all. I'd tend to put Dune in the latter group (tho' it'd be dead tricky for me to defend that :)
Random thought: Mozart's Requiem Mass, anyone?
nal 11
For those who thought the Fionavar Tapestry was Tolkienish that might explain it.
Chris Tolkien knows his fathers work and Kay is a great writer in his own right.
Anyone who's career is based solely on tweaking the imagined worlds of others is a hack.
Re: the Star Wars books; Zahn's written a fair whack of original (albeit pretty uninspired) works.
'There is a Light that never goes out.'
Indeed. You are correct. No-ships were created to counter prescience. No-ships were created as a means to evade the god-like prescient powers of Leto the God Emperor. There were no no-ships before Paul.
OK, so it's a cheap exploitation, and its authors lack the depth of vision that Frank Herbert had. But if you're *going* to do a cheap exploitation, they picked a pretty good place to hang it on the story lines. Trying to write Dune: Volumes 7,8,9 would have been an utter failure - even Frank Herbert was running pretty dry on stories by the end. Picking a random thread and going sideways would be pretty lame, though perhaps Frank left around some notes they could use; writing Other Children Of Dune to try to make up for the relatively lame Children Of Dune would only emphasize that Frank was the better writer, since they'd be lamer than it was. Doing a prequel at least gives you *some* chance to think about "where did these characters come from? What makes them tick?" which wasn't in the original. Worst you can do is come out like the lasest Star Wars I: A New Prequel.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
on its way out..
Honestly the way history passed by so fast in the last two books of the original series it could have damn well been written by someone other thant Frank Herbert.
Chapterhouse did not feel like Dune... but it had his name didn't it?
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
The original book had some inconsistencies in itself as well. Most notable was the military strength of the Fremen. During the major attack by Harkonnen they wipe out squads of Sardaukar without problems, even capturing some of the Harkonnen artillery including Sardaukar gunners, and the next moment during the Occupation beast Rabban only loses two men per dead Fremen...doesn't make sense, even if you imagine Harkonnen 'thopters with Laserguns blasting through the desert...
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
I see this is posted as news, but why not create a separate story category for book reviews? Surely that's more apropos. (And since I've raised the subject, I'd still like to see a separate category for religion | metaphysics | spirituality, since that's come up from time to time.)
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
Ever read the Foundation series? I read the first Dune and liked it a lot. I tried reading some of the subsequent ones (got maybe half way through God Emporer, not very far at all into any of the others) and just couldn't keep going. Any great sci-fi author can keep a universe going. Larry Niven did it with Known Space. Heinlein had continuity in a lot of his books. Asimov did it to a phenomenal level. The thing is that I was able to keep reading and enjoying their books and I just couldn't do that with Dune. I think it's excellent for those who could, and in another few years I'll probably sit down and try to work through them again, but I read the other authors as a kid and was able to appreciate them and read them now and see a lot of new things in them but still appreciate them. If you haven't read the foundation series or Niven's Ringworld series or any of Heinlein's books I'd highly recommend them. You're almost certain to enjoy them -Mike
his ability to pull of various types of combat related action would do well for a Battle of Corrin and such. He would easily be able to give us the battle where the Atreides became heroes while the Harkonnens failed.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Really, did everyone really think that this series would be as good as the originals?
Seriously now, find me a series of books that continues to be great after the original writer dies or stops writing...it just doesn't happen. The Starwars books were a small exception, and even in those I've found only a few that were worth reading.
Don't take this to mean that it can't be done but when an author puts his heart and soul into a book, nobody can reproduce his/her work nor should anyone try. To those who complain that these books aren't as good as their predecessors: "Shame on you!" . It's the fact that the originals are so good that makes this venture worthwhile. I applaud Brian Herbert's efforts, trying to pick up where his father left off is a tough thing to do. I liked his collaboration with his father in the book "Man of two Worlds". I look forward to his next Dune novels. I am an avid fan but I do not proclaim that to adapt a classic is blasphemy. It really not that bad.
"Never wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it."
That's what I said. When he posseses Alia, he makes her fat. If he was a fitness fanatic, he would be glorying in not having a degenerated body, not making her sybaritic and overweight (well, sybaritic yes, not overweight).
The degenerative disease was exactly what I was complaining about. It doesn't fit. Like any of the rest of the prequel.
-- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"'
And did anyone notice the horrible hack IXians. The ixians of Dune were mysterious, they broke rules and the were secertive about everything, technowizards if you will. The new books portray them as regal overseers to a bunch of friggin oumpa lumpas. Worse yet their stepping over the line isn't some secretive AI or supercomputering tech manufacturing system its a damn combat practice drone. The Ixains were cool cause you were left to guess at their motives and methods.
I'm a huge Frank Herbert fan. Besides the Dune books I loved his other stuff, especially Dosadi & Whipping Star. After hearing how bad House Atreides was I stayed away for a long while. I really needed a fix though so I picked up the paperback last week.
It is absurdly bad.
I'm staggered by the enormity of it's badness. Horrible character development, weak dialog, predictable plot. It stinks.
But what I found most offensive of all was the number of times it out and out contradicted the original Dune books. I mean Jesus, I hadn't reread them in a few years and I was spotting inaccuracies and contradictions left and right. If you're going to base your work of the work of another, at least get your info right.
I'm rereading the whole Dune series in an attempt to cleanse myself of the taint. Just got through with Dune Messiah and, surprise, even more contradictions popped up.I really hope by the time I get halfway through God Emperor again I'm just enjoying how brilliant it is instead of spending half my time thinking, "well there's another thing that Herb got wrong."
Ah, you're still with me. I've read the Dune series several times. Each time I glean something new from the stories, almost parables. Frank Herbert had a deep understanding of people and this is what his works spoke of to me. Leaders, gods, religion, economy, technolgy, government all were important parts of what he tried to impart to his reader. His vision, his golden path, was understanding. I believe that this was the essence of Frank Herbert's Dune.
When Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson set out to continue the telling of Dune epic they did so for their own motivations. Whether it was out of desire for profit, recognition, or reconciliation--I think Frank Herbert was not the easiest person to be the son of--is known only to them I can only speculate, but what is most aparent and much easier to prove is that the two of them are completely wrapped up even mystified with the plot of Dune that they've missed the underlying messages.
Yes, House Atreides and House Harkonne do have things to say. Duncan's trip to the Ginaz Islands had some interesting points about warfare. Not everyone plays by the rules which gave good argument against the idea that there are no rules in war. But even this pales in comparison to Frank Herberts teachings.
Is it fair or should we even compare Brian Herbert's and Kevin Anderson's writing to Frank Herbert's. Realistically I don't think so. Writing is a glimpse at the mind of the author. They are different people and by the very nature of that fact they will write differently. But, being of the same story changes that a bit. I find Brian Herbert's and Kevin Anderson's Dune stories to be very much in the style of Frank Herbert. House Harkonne seems to be even more so than House Atreides. They have followed the "forms." I do not think that is enough. Of course this is the hardcore Dune fanatic in me speaking. There is also a part of me that is glad to see these stories written.
The Dune epic for all its worth is very convoluted. There are portions that are left out, unexplored, or not finished. I enjoy being able to fill in the gaps. In this respect the stories are very exciting for me. Even more exciting is prospect of being able to finish the epic. (What was with the honored maters and the scattered face dancers? More Teg!) Its all plot but its like reading a good Clancy book. Its exciting. My only hope is that they: 1. do not screw up the Dune story too much, 2. progress enough in their writing abilities and understanding to give Dune 7 the respect it deserves, 3. ditch Kevin Anderson. Actually, I think Brian Herbert could have chosen better. After all he's probably doing this to resolve some long standing conflict with his father.
To get a little better understanding of who Kevin Anderson is i suggest reading one of his books. Won't take more than one though. He does strike me as someone with a great depth of character. Maybe once he's been knocked around enough he'll figure himself out better. This interview is definitely worth a watch.
Here at the bottom of the page.
Also this one with Alec Newman. I think he will do a fine job as Paul in the mini series. Although don't get me started about the Dune mini series. Damnit Leto has a beard!
Here.
The DUNE prequels suffer from the same problem that afflicts a lot of historical fiction. They were written, not so much to tell a story, but to provide explanations and descriptions of a number of events which we already know happened, and (if possible) to give an ironic twist to those explanations. It's "connect-the-dots" fiction. So DUNE tells us that the "Old Duke" died in a bullfight? Well, let that death be the result of a Harkonnen plot, and let the young Duncan Idaho (who has a ludicrously involved history all his own) be the one who detects the plot, too late. So DUNE tells us that Gurney Halleck's sister died in a Harkonnen brothel? Well, let her die before his eyes, then, and let Glossu Rabban be her executioner. So DUNE tells us that Vladimir Harkonnen is Jessica's father? Well, we can kill _four_ birds with that stone: not only can we explain how that happened, but we can make the Reverend Mohiam Jessica's mother! and we can now explain how Baron Harkonnen got fat, too! and we can bring the doctor Wellington Yueh into the story too! what incredible irony!
There's no suspense in HOUSE ATREIDES and HOUSE HARKONNEN, really. The authors feel compelled to introduce new characters, like Dominic Vernius and his children, or Abulurd Harkonnen and his wife, but we know that they must die, because DUNE itself has nothing to say about these _ex post facto_ creations. They serve, by their deaths, merely to nudge the "permanent" characters in prescribed directions. Kailea and her son Victor by Leto serve only to explain why Jessica broke her oath with the Bene Gesserit, and bore not a daughter but a son. Abulurd Harkonnen serves only to explain why Glossu Rabban became such a monster that he acquired the nickname of "Beast". And so on.
It doesn't help that the prequels capture few of DUNE's strengths, but faithfully replicate many of that book's weaknesses. The Harkonnens, just as in DUNE, are ludicrously extreme in their barbarism and cruelty. The writers don't add anything to the one-note characterization of Baron Harkonnen in DUNE: he's just the same, at once both sinister and ridiculous. In addition, I was a little revolted that the prequels continued Frank Herbert's tradition of making monstrous caricatures of his homosexual characters: Vladimir Harkonnen is a narcissist, obsessed with the perfection of his own body, who takes men for lovers only because he loathes women. The DUNE prequels also continue Frank Herbert's method of telling, not showing. DUNE tends to bog down in extended passages of internal monologue (too many paragraphs of various characters' gloating over their own cleverness, for one thing), and the prequels do no better.
hyacinthus
Has anyone else noticed the subtle influence of
Christianity in Herbert's Dune? Was Paul Jesus?
Was the Kwisatz Haderach the Jews' Messiah? I am not saying it IS, but just giving you all something to ponder.
For those of you with good internet connections here's some links to the trailers from the SciFi Channel's web site scifi.com/dune.
These all require Quicktime:
- Official theatrical trailer
-
Trailer 2
- The original trailer
They also have some cool wallpapers there. The series premieres Sunday, December 3rd at 9pm on the SciFi channel. Be there!set softtabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab nocp worlddomination
When reading prequels, it is REALLY important to remember that you are prescient. You KNOW how it turns out in the end. It's like reading the last chapter of a mystery novel. You've not going to encounter suspense on major plotlines like that -- its just not possible. What you ARE going to get is the background into "What made 'character' who he/she is?"
That's not to say there won't be suspense at all, simply that it will be in "the details"... the rules of war / swordmaster training plotline, etc. You know he's a Swordmaster, but its all the fine details of that process that are withheld and slowly spoonfed back out.
Overall I liked both, and can't wait for Dune: House Corrino to come out (next year is it?)
D
The Duncan Idaho storyline with the swordmasters or Ginaz and the background on the rules of war. This I thought was *very* cool. No it is not Dune and maybe someone besides Anderson should have been brought in but I thought that overall it was very solid. Now what I would like to see the do is take Brian (for the names sake) and someone else (Neal Stephenson leaps to mind) and do a set of books based during the Butlerian Jihad (sorry if my spelling is off at work nothing to check with) Stpehenson because I think his take on the AIs would be great. I would love to have a book with the Battle or Corrin in it. OTOH I really hope they don't do a book about Paul's birth I think that would take things just a step too close to the great original.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
--
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Have you noticed that people deliberatly obey Bill Clinton? AND that he is surrounded by fearless men who are willing to risk their lives for him...AND...their initials are.....(wait for it, lad)....SS!! Yes, the Secret Service, and they are probably on to you now, now that you have discerned, through your Holmesian powers of deduction, the subtextual propaganda that underlies what we, the unenlightened, thought was JUST A F*CKING SCI-FI NOVEL!!! Yeah, Dune=Nazi, Herbert=Goebbels, Spice=What? Bratwurst? Clinton=Paul/Hitler, The Guild=WTO...to quote every whacked out looney tune I've ever known "SEE?! It all fits together!"
Damn, there are people out there who put a lot of effort into posting dumbass comments just to get a rise, and you top them all....hey...wait a dad-gumb minnit?? Am I bein' hornswoggled here?
Brad
PS)OK, troll or not, I want to point out that the traits you note (fearlessness, obedience, honour, loyalty, discipline (elite fighters do not lack discipline)) are not exactly horrific traits. The only really negative thing you point to is "mercilessness" (not mercylessness, BTW)...which is only one of several traits of the SS (Nazi) which caused them to be bad boys...
.sig="If someone says to you, "See!? It all fits together, be assured that that person is full of shit." Me, to my sons.
"To be fair, I was left completely unsupervised." ~Anon
The original Dune books have the Duke as having always been a fat bastard, not an fitness fanatic layed low. In trying to "reveal" some hidden portion of the Dune past in their money milking prequels (ooh, sounds familiar!) they ignored the fact that the Baron was portrayed as a lazy sensualist when he posseses Alia, causing her to become overweight and slothful.
Ignoring the original series, its religion and its subtlety can also be tacked on to the list of problems with this abuse of the Dune name...
-- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"'
I always feel so bad for Duncan Idaho. Eight books spanning five thousand years and they just won't let him stay dead...
"...heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will, to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."
Yes, they made a movie adaptation of Asimov's Nightfall in 1988 or 1989. It was god awful! It is on my list as the worst movie ever made.
Meredith Baxter-Birney's (Family Ties) husband starred in it. Plus the local newspaper gave it something like 1 of out 5 stars.
"sweet dreams are made of this..."
Quite frankly, they are trying to milk the dune money making machine by doing prequels to the stories, and including the most well known characters from the original book. In doing so, they set themselves up for a horrible fall.
The Dune universe wasn't set up for prequels, it was set up for the events in Dune, and the books that followed it.
To continue the Dune universe, I'd either place the time far before the events in the first book, or after the events of the last book. Good ideas would be during the machine jihad and the rise of the mentats to replace them, how the Ix/Choam/Sisterhood/Imperial House formed, discovery of Dune & spice, or (after the last book) perhaps dealing with the free facedancers (a threat to the sisterhood?), or the God Emperor's seed of concious in all the sand worms.
But don't try to make a prequal by setting it only a few decades before the first book. It will be stale.
flames go here
Evan Reynolds evanthx@hotmail.com
Evan Reynolds evanthx@hotmail.com
Two peanuts crossed the street. One was assaulted.
Not to bash him or anything, but he should really stick to his own work. His stuff with Dune is absolutely awful. Frank Herbert, above all was a writer who could weave complex themes through complex characters in a such a way that you were never aware that you were in the middle of an exposition. Anderson, on the other hand, wouldn't know subtlety if it hit him over the head with a sledgehammer. Herbert lets you figure things out for yourself over the course of the novel, Anderson tells you three times in the character's "thoughts."
On the other hand, I'm really looking forward to the Sci-Fi Channel's Dune miniseries in December. Looks like a good adaptation.
If it ain't broke, you need more software.
I get the impression this series is just another series for the SciFi authors who can't come up with their own ideas.
There are a lot of kludges by Frank Herbert just so he can say "just so".
;).
:).
:).
For example, the reason given for why lasers aren't used is because when a laser hits a shield, both the laser source and the shield go thermonuclear. I don't know why he bothered with this idea.
So what if the laser source blows up. I can always get a missile to shoot it. Or I can plonk a big fat laser gun somewhere else and trigger it, or even get some idiot to shoot the gun. One idiot for a whole city, nice. Sure we'll give the guy a purple heart, no brains all heart
I can't imagine using shields when there's such a dangerous "feature". Lasers are cheap. Stuff you bother to protect aren't. Would you use shields if you knew some idiot waving a laser could cause a nuclear incident?
It's like watching a B movie - turn your brain off, and enjoy the show. But in the later episodes the novelty wears off. And too much of the "I knew you knew that I knew that you knew I was going to do that" too
That said, it's fun
Cheerio,
Link.
By looking at the previews (which are available in quicktime on the aforementioned site), it seems that the series will be a visual masterpiece, nothing like the horrible David Lynch adaptation... The director of photography for the new series, Vittorio Storaro, is widely known as "the master of color" - and I think this is justified - so the film will probably be beyond eye candy (more like an eye feast with a spa session, and all other comforts). Don't believe me? Go look at the pretty pictures. :-)
Of course, there's always the possiility of massacring the plot, but since this is a miniseries rather than a film, there's a bit less time constraints, so I think there's less of a chance of that happening...
So yep, overall I have high hopes for this miniseries.
Sean
Anyone can read the first chapter online free at Bookface. Free registration required, but you can see what the book will be like.
Hopefully the SciFi series won't have characters whispering their thoughts to themselves. Whenever Kyle McLachlan kept whispering "the spice..." to himself I wanted to yell "Yo, Spice Boy! No one can hear you!"
Look, a successful book launch has nothing to do with content, it is a marketing ploy. Any author could tell you that it is very rare that a published work ever gets printed with its working title.
...
House Harkonnen is instantly recognizable, implies some mild dirt, so it increases the demographic. If it said Leit's Story, the sales would have dropped to about half the current volume.
Oh, sorry, you didn't want to know the real reason it's about Leit and others but is titled to make you think it's about the Harkonnens. Instead, you'd like to believe that the book publishing industry is clean and only cares about literary qualities and art.
Wake up and smell the sequel
[yes, my name used to be longer, back when I was published in White Dwarf and various Australian and New Zealand mags, but the publishing industry is still the same beast]
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
I can't see the plot in this one being any different in that respect. I'm more interested in what happens than the people, though I have to admit that if I found out a bit of someones background then I find it helps the plot.
There was quite a bit going on in the first one, I would very much like to see more of the story.
dnnrly
I mean, there has rarely been a more long-winded, dull book with shoddy characterisation, awful prose and a setting that lacks interest. If it wasn't for the fact that the other science fiction around at the time was even worse, nobody would have ever even considered Dune, let alone call it a "classic".
One of the reasons that I loved the dune series was their scope. Few books in any genre manage to successfully (or even unsuccessfully) carry a story over several thousand years.
It was interesting to watch the development of their government, the way the Bene Gesseret would engineer religions and entire societies, the way the God Emperor built up Arakkis...
Sure, some of the dialogue was a bit bogged down, but I sat down and read the first 5 books in less than a month. It also gave me a lot of interesting ideas about OUR society and cultural development, which (IMHO) was Herbert's whole point to begin with.
Sometimes it isn't the plot line that causes something to succeed or fail... it's the effect on the reader that make it great.
-The Reverend (I am not a Nazi nor a Troll)
-The Reverend (I am not a Nazi nor a Troll)
=(.\')=
Question - Does anyone know whether this will be any good? I was watching the Dune movie (the long version) on sci-fi a while back and I kept thinking how it hadn't aged especially well. A lot of the effects just don't look good, or even worse, look like obvious special effects.
So far I've gotten all my Karma from telling people they are wrong... :)
Be ot or bot ne ot, taht is the nestquoi.
I've read and re-read the Dune series many times. I got the two prequels from the library because my "cash in on Dad's idea" detector was blaring loudly..... That said, it was interesting to see details from the REAL Dune fleshed out. A fan of the series cannot help but hope to be able to enter that "world" again (due to the depth and richness of Frank Herbert's vision - especially the appendices that accompanied the original Dune). The bad part is that the writing just is not anywhere near as good as the original - much more like potboiler sci-fi ala L. Ron Hubbard.... yeesh Bottom Line - I'll read whatever they put out. But I'll get it from the library.
All of these Brian Herbert books are written based on a very small (less than a hundred pages total) collection of Frank Herbert's notes they found in the attic. I would much rather see the raw notes collected into a book, than to see these hacks try to write 500 pages of drivel to fill in the spaces between the actual stuff Frank Herbert wrote.
Frank Herbert's books focus on a few key ideas about cellular memory, prescience and other special abilities. The broad sweep of ideas is what's important, not plotline. The prequels are more pure fun science fiction, and there is nothing wrong with that. Dune: House Harkonnenen is already on my nightstand awaiting the completion of a great Neal Stephenson novel. I'm looking forward to it.
The new prequels are worh reading once for their elaboration of the Dune universe. However they lack depth and sublty. The original series you could get more out of it re-reading it several times because there was a lot of texture and under-explained background.
This is the same as Kubrick's space odyssey versus the sequel. Kubrick explained little- just presented imagery and action. 2010 explained everything and took the mystery out of it.
Two of the great strengths of the original Dune books were FH's use of mystery and fascinating point of view characters. He didn't give you all the information in great expository lumps. You got just enough for the story to make sense and trusted that the rest would come. The current books plop it all down in front of you leaving nothing for the imagination and nothing to make you wonder what's going on. The other is the characters. In the original series you got inside the minds of people who were very very different from you and me. Many were also much more intelligent and subtle than Herbert himself. A very neat trick for an author. The current crop is flat and ordinary. Disappointing.
The man who never alters his opinion is like the stagnant water and breeds Reptiles of the Mind -- William Blake
The Dune website said this is the title of third volume. I presume it covers Paul's childhood, goes more into depth about the Emperor's machinations, and the reason for awarding Arakis to the Attredies. The book has been finished and is in editing.
Is the new Robert Jordan book any good? The last 2 were sooo long and sooo dull. Please Lord, let this one be interesting...
So far I've gotten all my Karma from telling people they are wrong... :)
I suspect that would be fertile ground for exploration of the Dune Universe. That is the major historical event in Dune history (I forget about 2000 years earlier). It laid the ground for the new organizations like the Guild, Bene Gesserit, Ix, Empires etc.
However, the subsequent books were a letdown. Too much mumbo-jumbo and metaphysical mush substituted in the place of real plot and character development.
--
Your Servant, B. Baggins
In the six or so millennia of human history that we have decent archeological and written records- the Jewish-Christian-Islam religious triad is a late-comer. Egypt and Mesopotomia each had a fairly stable pantheon going for 3-4 thousand years or more. Why was there a lot of religous flux for the millennia 600 BCE - 400 CE and then things fossilize again? Frank Herbert looks at another religious upheaveal in the far future, and millennia-old organizations behind the scenes.
First off, the characters are not that one dimensional as you claim. I grant you that some are, but they are usually fringe characters. The later books in the Dune series had similar characters too, pretty much simple but needed to move plot along.
Now the Ixian prince is interesting because he wants/wanted to do something but never had the chance to learn how to act as he should of. In essence he had to learn his role while Duke Leto learned his. His big problem was that its very hard to learn a role when your actions are constrained such as his. For the most part I think he fell by the wayside as his sister obviously took center stage in the second book.
The books do provide lots and lots of background helping explain how the situation arised in Dune. I don't find them bastardizing the stories, for me they finally fill in the little details that were seemingly missing.
As for the book naming, the authors simply laid down names for the series without regard to the focus of the books. However the second book does concentrate a lot more on Harkonnen people that the first. BUT, where you are confused is that you seem to expect it to concentrate on the Baron, but he is not all that is Harkonnen. Duncan and Gurney are both involved heavily, and their stories are very important to set how the Harknonnen worlds were/are.
As for the Emperor and the Bene Tleilaxu situation is very interesting and folds in well with the last 3 books of original Dune (with artificial spice).
Now the only issue I have with the books is the power exhibited by the Bene Geserits (sp?). To me the current authors have made them too powerful in the aspect of their mental powers. Sorry, but the fact they could detect Rabban in the no-ship was uncalled for and not-canon. It was an ability the sisters did not have in Chapterhouse. If all they had to do was detect people then the issues in Chapterhouse about detecting no-ships would have been a moot point.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
For new people, read the original work. Herbert wrote an interesting book in Dune (though I think some of the later works were rather sad follow ons).
And Zahn writes great SF pretty much every time he puts pen to paper - be it putting in his 0.02 in the Star Wars machine or writing his own SF like Blackcollar and the various Cobra books.
As for the movies, neat SFX, but not much there. The longer version (about 30 extra minutes IIRC) is easier to follow, but even then being a Dune disciple helps. Those who just saw the theatrical cut probably left the theatre thinking "what the heck was that about?".
Hopefully any new follow on TV or Movies will be much better.
Pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work.
There was never a genius without a tincture of madness.
Aris
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"