I honestly think Ubuntu is going to break from Gnome soon. Gnome's direction and Ubuntu's are opposite. Ultimately KDE could use a parent distribution and Ubunto needs more clout and ain't going to get it in RedHat's DE.
They are having a rough couple of years. OTOH Meego could be as important as Suse, Turbo, Caldera was in the early years. KDE and Linux in general is having a tough time refocusing. We'll see how this plays out. Microsoft, with the exception of XBOX has had lots of trouble expanding and is somewhat losing ground. I don't see them being as dominant on handheld office suites of say 2015.
Wikileaks has been threatened with criminal penalties by congressmen, senators, the sitting sec of state and attorney general. While I might academically consider a case that wikileaks is not a criminal organization.... that's far more than most criminal organizations face.
To get features of the libraries and tight integration. Best of breed office suites (like WordPerfect's) lost to integrated suites (like Microsoft's) because of the advantages the offered for things like cut and paste of objects working across apps.
Back in the early 2000s I used Koffice to fork processes off from our applications. It was very nice to be able to send thousands of data points to a spreadsheet which had graphing and just pass calls and not have to write all that code.
-- I don't recall Putin constantly lecturing countries on how they should run themselves.
Talk to Eastern European countries. He's a regional not a global power. As for the not relevant I think you should reread the original comment it was about since the fall.
As for something else going on. There would have been signs of it further down unless the State Department didn't know at all. In which case we are talking about stuff being run completely out of CIA which is fine. They should be in the shadows.
Since when are company's customer's advertisers when they are offering products? Advertisers are customers for free websites like this one, and vendors to pay ones. I think the least you could do is work your analogy to the point it makes sense and not conflate two different relationships.
I don't know that we have more freedom today or less with tracking. More effective and targeting advertising may mean less advertising and less obtrusive advertising. You remember what the web was like in 1998? Or for that matter what television is like today? Untargetted advertising requires far more advertising for the same bang for the buck.
Heck I have mixed feeling about anonymity on the web. In the late 1980s and early 1990s when people all had real name accounts that tied to their workplaces you had a very different internet in terms of what people did or didn't do. The commercial ISPs took away a lot of freedoms that existed then. I figure since you have a low number you might have been around then. Its hard to make a comparison because it was so much smaller. But the point is it that it is not clear to me what the world looks like with more or less tracking.
Sam Dean, who wrote the original article for OStatic was a bit incorrect in his definitions, "Like it or not, commercial open source companies are still companies, and the economics of the online world have everything to do with their present and their future" which got quoted in the summary on/. But if you read the article by " commercial open source companies" he means advertisers not companies releasing open source software to sell a support agreement or a commercial licensed version or..... The point about economics and the web and Mozilla are all valid points. But of course no one would call advertisers " commercial open source companies", which makes it confusing. Thought I should clarify what was meant.
The US position on what? Most of these documents are consistent with what the NYTimes, for example, has been writing. The defense would be a, best of a bunch of bad alternatives.
-- Not news to people who follow politics and care about this, but the cables are very easy to read, very direct and very plentiful evidence of this.
I would agree. That was my point about journalism. The people who read newspaper articles know this stuff, but the evidence from wikileaks is pretty clear cut. The good thing IMHO is that we are only doing the stuff that is in wikileaks. If you had asked me a month ago I would have figured we were up to much worse.
-- he USA claims to be spreading democracy and freedom throughout the world.
True. Where specifically are you seeing them preferring autocracy to democracy. The only place I can think of is in Palestine. Other than that they seem to mildly prefer democratic government, which is about what they really claim.
-- Maybe it's because Russia doesn't claim to be some paragon of moral superiority to the world so its government employees don't have any illusions to be shattered.
???? Huh? The Soviets certainly did. As for the new Russia they have gone back to the old claim to be the guardians of Orthodox Christianity, the defenders of the traditional west against the decadent Western European west and the polyglot Americans. I guess you would need cables showing them being pro Muslim or something to accuse them of hypocrisy.
For me both this and the Afghan war wikileaks showed that journalism is working again. It seems that after the failures that led to Iraq the media really is doing a better job. Most everything in the leaks was rumored. Also its nice to see the USA is doing pretty much what it claims to be doing. Of course what's also interesting is no one is even attempting to deny these facts. Wikileaks has become the most reliable source we have on many topics. The government freak out is just what corporate America and then consumer America had to deal with a 15 and 10 years ago. Welcome to the internet age.
The most interesting topic is what this reveals about Pakistan and Afghanistan. Its time to level with everyone involved and I hope the congress has a vigerous debate about Afghan policy this time around.
Mathematica I'm familiar with. This is a client server application. The way you should run Mathematica remotely is to run the client locally and the kernel on another computer. For example in 1993 I did this a few times: Me (dumb X-term) -> client (same building SunOS) -> kernel (same campus, super computer). I don't see much reason to run Mathematica network transparent on a modern system capable of running the client. Further Mathematica is always going to have an X-client, I can't ever see it being Wayland only unless X has essentially died and Wayland is the standard for all Unixes which is a long way away. I'm hard pressed to see a Mathematica kernel server using a desktop OS, so even if the Ubuntu version doesn't have an X client... So I'm having trouble seeing the use case here, there just seem like too many bypasses.
In terms of editing. First off console editors still work, there is no reason you can't use VIM. Also again many editors will support X. If you can map displays you can map drives or files. If people are frequently working remotely on a system then it shouldn't be setup like a desktop, its a server.
As for sound in the same room.... you are then talking about a server which means the sound app should be client / server. Or at least use an X app, you don't need a particular app for this.
Is network transparency a nice feature, sure. I wasn't looking for completeness I am looking for one non niche example that applies to a desktop OS. In the days when Unix "desktops" supported multiple users on X-terms, a 4:1 ratio was standard, it makes sense. Today everyone has their own CPU, memory and disk on the system they are sitting in front of. There is no reason to have protocols that don't expect more from the client.
-- Any one which uses a GUI and which I want to run, for whatever reason, on a different computer than the one I'm sitting in front of.
Maxwell, that's a tautology. You are essentially repeating the feature set of network transparency, the ability to run an arbitrary app remotely. Asking which ones are likely to be Wayland only (i.e. not run at the X level) that will need to be networked is an important practical question.
People are arguing that network transparency for all (or most) apps is a critical feature, your post is just reasserting it not providing even a single example for where a dual approach would be troublesome.
This is a stupid argument. Wealth inequality means that statistically your efforts are less likely to succeed in getting out of poverty, essentially that's the definition.
Everywhere else in the world I'm aware of calls something alpha if it's feature-complete but still really buggy
Actually that's a beta version that is unacceptably buggy but feature complete.
alpha versions are not feature complete beta versions are.
Anyway, define "feature-complete". There are new features coming in KDE 4.6, and there will be more in 4.7. Is KDE4 "feature-complete" yet? Maybe they should still not have released 4.0.
Feature complete is the set of features you are going to have in your release for general usage. What KDE 4.1 had was the set of features they wanted for the initial release of the KDE 4 series.
and had an API they could declare "frozen" for third-party app developers to start working with. Which third-party app developers generally don't do if you haven't made a point-zero release. If it was KDE alpha-4.19, no-one else would be writing apps for KDE4 yet, they'd still be developing for KDE3.
That's not the case at all. People write to alpha versions, especially those with release dates, all the time. API's can be frozen years prior to the release versions for software. It is not at all uncommon that alpha versions are released so that the developer community can use them, but that the user community doesn't. That's one of the reasons alpha versions of software are released since at that point developers don't even want bug reports yet. Sending out a notice that the API is frozen is something you expect the application developer community to care about, and they would have. If applications writers know that the.0 version is coming out in 6 mo. and that distributions will start switching then, they are going to target the.0 release with new applications. A.0 release is a statement to the broad user community not the developer community. KDE meant something different buy it that no one else means. This misunderstanding about how high the standards are for.0 release is the reason that KDE was, rightly, criticized.
4 year olds have little interest in the internet in my experience, though it sounds like yours might be different. I'd say buy a bunch of education games. You can get the ones a few years out of date super cheap and kids of that age will play them. In terms of the internet, you can just whitelist rather than blacklist
My kid used to only go to http://www.webkinz.com/ which BTW is a very good deal, buy one doll and you get the site for a year.
Hi, been a long while since we talked. You are sorting of ranting a bit here. I was asking for a specific.
In any case Wayland is meant to be disruptive. Wayland represents a rejection of many of the core ideas of X. Its not meant to be a better X than X, but rather create a better desktop with an X that isn't much worse. X users should experience a slight downgrade but direct to desktop apps would experience a massive upgrade. So in terms of not disruptive you are asking it do something it was never intended for.
In terms of this being too early for Ubuntu. You and I agree. Ubuntu is biting off a lot here: 1) Getting Unity fully working 2) Getting Wayland to replace X 3) Creating a Unity/Gnome fork of Gnome and maintaining it as Gnome moves in a different direction.
I think Shuttleworth is completely underestimating how much harder (2) and (3) will be than (1). Particularly since Gnome 3 is going to make this harder and harder over the next 5 years.
In terms of proof of concept I'd say X-Quartz. Where you have a windowing manager similar to Wayland (Aqua) running an X Server on top that offers good integration with other desktop apps. It works rather well.
The term for what you are talking about is "network transparency". And Wayland can run an X server but Wayland apps won't have that feature.
X will be around for a long long time. If Wayland replaces X on the desktop it will be a sign that major features of Wayland are being used, which is forcing apps to move off X so it will be an upgrade.
Slashdot Mirror
I honestly think Ubuntu is going to break from Gnome soon. Gnome's direction and Ubuntu's are opposite. Ultimately KDE could use a parent distribution and Ubunto needs more clout and ain't going to get it in RedHat's DE.
They are having a rough couple of years. OTOH Meego could be as important as Suse, Turbo, Caldera was in the early years. KDE and Linux in general is having a tough time refocusing. We'll see how this plays out. Microsoft, with the exception of XBOX has had lots of trouble expanding and is somewhat losing ground. I don't see them being as dominant on handheld office suites of say 2015.
Wikileaks has been threatened with criminal penalties by congressmen, senators, the sitting sec of state and attorney general. While I might academically consider a case that wikileaks is not a criminal organization.... that's far more than most criminal organizations face.
To get features of the libraries and tight integration. Best of breed office suites (like WordPerfect's) lost to integrated suites (like Microsoft's) because of the advantages the offered for things like cut and paste of objects working across apps.
As I'm reading this thread I'd suggest this link instead:
http://lists.kde.org/?l=koffice-devel&m=128812911619277&w=2
I can't mod you up but thanks for the useful link.
Back in the early 2000s I used Koffice to fork processes off from our applications. It was very nice to be able to send thousands of data points to a spreadsheet which had graphing and just pass calls and not have to write all that code.
Thanks for the answer. I remember the announcement about the "Kool desktop environment" during the days of Caldera.
-- I don't recall Putin constantly lecturing countries on how they should run themselves.
Talk to Eastern European countries. He's a regional not a global power. As for the not relevant I think you should reread the original comment it was about since the fall.
As for something else going on. There would have been signs of it further down unless the State Department didn't know at all. In which case we are talking about stuff being run completely out of CIA which is fine. They should be in the shadows.
Since when are company's customer's advertisers when they are offering products? Advertisers are customers for free websites like this one, and vendors to pay ones. I think the least you could do is work your analogy to the point it makes sense and not conflate two different relationships.
I don't know that we have more freedom today or less with tracking. More effective and targeting advertising may mean less advertising and less obtrusive advertising. You remember what the web was like in 1998? Or for that matter what television is like today? Untargetted advertising requires far more advertising for the same bang for the buck.
Heck I have mixed feeling about anonymity on the web. In the late 1980s and early 1990s when people all had real name accounts that tied to their workplaces you had a very different internet in terms of what people did or didn't do. The commercial ISPs took away a lot of freedoms that existed then. I figure since you have a low number you might have been around then. Its hard to make a comparison because it was so much smaller. But the point is it that it is not clear to me what the world looks like with more or less tracking.
Sam Dean, who wrote the original article for OStatic was a bit incorrect in his definitions, "Like it or not, commercial open source companies are still companies, and the economics of the online world have everything to do with their present and their future" which got quoted in the summary on /. But if you read the article by " commercial open source companies" he means advertisers not companies releasing open source software to sell a support agreement or a commercial licensed version or ..... The point about economics and the web and Mozilla are all valid points. But of course no one would call advertisers " commercial open source companies", which makes it confusing. Thought I should clarify what was meant.
The US position on what? Most of these documents are consistent with what the NYTimes, for example, has been writing. The defense would be a, best of a bunch of bad alternatives.
-- Not news to people who follow politics and care about this, but the cables are very easy to read, very direct and very plentiful evidence of this.
I would agree. That was my point about journalism. The people who read newspaper articles know this stuff, but the evidence from wikileaks is pretty clear cut. The good thing IMHO is that we are only doing the stuff that is in wikileaks. If you had asked me a month ago I would have figured we were up to much worse.
-- he USA claims to be spreading democracy and freedom throughout the world.
True. Where specifically are you seeing them preferring autocracy to democracy. The only place I can think of is in Palestine. Other than that they seem to mildly prefer democratic government, which is about what they really claim.
-- Maybe it's because Russia doesn't claim to be some paragon of moral superiority to the world so its government employees don't have any illusions to be shattered.
???? Huh? The Soviets certainly did. As for the new Russia they have gone back to the old claim to be the guardians of Orthodox Christianity, the defenders of the traditional west against the decadent Western European west and the polyglot Americans. I guess you would need cables showing them being pro Muslim or something to accuse them of hypocrisy.
I remember good debates on issues in the 1990s and 1980s. Many of the same Senators are still there. Who knows, could happen?
I agree it is odd. Of course conservatives in the US are patriots and the head of the NWO is the US government and....
For me both this and the Afghan war wikileaks showed that journalism is working again. It seems that after the failures that led to Iraq the media really is doing a better job. Most everything in the leaks was rumored. Also its nice to see the USA is doing pretty much what it claims to be doing. Of course what's also interesting is no one is even attempting to deny these facts. Wikileaks has become the most reliable source we have on many topics. The government freak out is just what corporate America and then consumer America had to deal with a 15 and 10 years ago. Welcome to the internet age.
The most interesting topic is what this reveals about Pakistan and Afghanistan. Its time to level with everyone involved and I hope the congress has a vigerous debate about Afghan policy this time around.
OK good examples. Lets use these:
Mathematica I'm familiar with. This is a client server application. The way you should run Mathematica remotely is to run the client locally and the kernel on another computer. For example in 1993 I did this a few times: Me (dumb X-term) -> client (same building SunOS) -> kernel (same campus, super computer). I don't see much reason to run Mathematica network transparent on a modern system capable of running the client. Further Mathematica is always going to have an X-client, I can't ever see it being Wayland only unless X has essentially died and Wayland is the standard for all Unixes which is a long way away. I'm hard pressed to see a Mathematica kernel server using a desktop OS, so even if the Ubuntu version doesn't have an X client... So I'm having trouble seeing the use case here, there just seem like too many bypasses.
In terms of editing. First off console editors still work, there is no reason you can't use VIM. Also again many editors will support X. If you can map displays you can map drives or files. If people are frequently working remotely on a system then it shouldn't be setup like a desktop, its a server.
As for sound in the same room.... you are then talking about a server which means the sound app should be client / server. Or at least use an X app, you don't need a particular app for this.
Is network transparency a nice feature, sure. I wasn't looking for completeness I am looking for one non niche example that applies to a desktop OS. In the days when Unix "desktops" supported multiple users on X-terms, a 4:1 ratio was standard, it makes sense. Today everyone has their own CPU, memory and disk on the system they are sitting in front of. There is no reason to have protocols that don't expect more from the client.
This is a good response. I hope it get talked about more.
-- Any one which uses a GUI and which I want to run, for whatever reason, on a different computer than the one I'm sitting in front of.
Maxwell, that's a tautology. You are essentially repeating the feature set of network transparency, the ability to run an arbitrary app remotely. Asking which ones are likely to be Wayland only (i.e. not run at the X level) that will need to be networked is an important practical question.
People are arguing that network transparency for all (or most) apps is a critical feature, your post is just reasserting it not providing even a single example for where a dual approach would be troublesome.
This is a stupid argument. Wealth inequality means that statistically your efforts are less likely to succeed in getting out of poverty, essentially that's the definition.
Everywhere else in the world I'm aware of calls something alpha if it's feature-complete but still really buggy
Actually that's a beta version that is unacceptably buggy but feature complete.
alpha versions are not feature complete
beta versions are.
Anyway, define "feature-complete". There are new features coming in KDE 4.6, and there will be more in 4.7. Is KDE4 "feature-complete" yet? Maybe they should still not have released 4.0.
Feature complete is the set of features you are going to have in your release for general usage. What KDE 4.1 had was the set of features they wanted for the initial release of the KDE 4 series.
and had an API they could declare "frozen" for third-party app developers to start working with. Which third-party app developers generally don't do if you haven't made a point-zero release. If it was KDE alpha-4.19, no-one else would be writing apps for KDE4 yet, they'd still be developing for KDE3.
That's not the case at all. People write to alpha versions, especially those with release dates, all the time. API's can be frozen years prior to the release versions for software. It is not at all uncommon that alpha versions are released so that the developer community can use them, but that the user community doesn't. That's one of the reasons alpha versions of software are released since at that point developers don't even want bug reports yet. Sending out a notice that the API is frozen is something you expect the application developer community to care about, and they would have. If applications writers know that the .0 version is coming out in 6 mo. and that distributions will start switching then, they are going to target the .0 release with new applications. A .0 release is a statement to the broad user community not the developer community. KDE meant something different buy it that no one else means. This misunderstanding about how high the standards are for .0 release is the reason that KDE was, rightly, criticized.
4 year olds have little interest in the internet in my experience, though it sounds like yours might be different. I'd say buy a bunch of education games. You can get the ones a few years out of date super cheap and kids of that age will play them. In terms of the internet, you can just whitelist rather than blacklist
My kid used to only go to http://www.webkinz.com/ which BTW is a very good deal, buy one doll and you get the site for a year.
Hi, been a long while since we talked. You are sorting of ranting a bit here. I was asking for a specific.
In any case Wayland is meant to be disruptive. Wayland represents a rejection of many of the core ideas of X. Its not meant to be a better X than X, but rather create a better desktop with an X that isn't much worse. X users should experience a slight downgrade but direct to desktop apps would experience a massive upgrade. So in terms of not disruptive you are asking it do something it was never intended for.
In terms of this being too early for Ubuntu. You and I agree. Ubuntu is biting off a lot here:
1) Getting Unity fully working
2) Getting Wayland to replace X
3) Creating a Unity/Gnome fork of Gnome and maintaining it as Gnome moves in a different direction.
I think Shuttleworth is completely underestimating how much harder (2) and (3) will be than (1). Particularly since Gnome 3 is going to make this harder and harder over the next 5 years.
In terms of proof of concept I'd say X-Quartz. Where you have a windowing manager similar to Wayland (Aqua) running an X Server on top that offers good integration with other desktop apps. It works rather well.
The term for what you are talking about is "network transparency". And Wayland can run an X server but Wayland apps won't have that feature.
X will be around for a long long time. If Wayland replaces X on the desktop it will be a sign that major features of Wayland are being used, which is forcing apps to move off X so it will be an upgrade.