What To Load On a 4-Year-Old's Netbook?

nostrodecus writes "I have a nephew who is very young, but who has the techie gene — he found the Gruffalo on YouTube before anyone knew he could spell. Now he's almost 4, and I was thinking of giving him my netbook (Acer running XP), which I hardly use any more. So, of course, I will be deleting all the porn, but what should I load up on it? Are there tools/apps that I can load up on it to protect it and him from things he shouldn't see until college? Also, what apps or games could I load on it that a 4-year-old will get some use out of?"

Comments

Regardless

[Dyinobal]

Regardless of what you install there's no guaranteed way to stop your kid from stumbling upon boobs on the internet. Plus who's to say it's something to worry about at all. They certainly didn't traumatize me.

Re:Regardless

[aliquis]

Exactly, why the censorship?

What apps? I have no idea. Probably gave it to the kid for a reason, what was the idea?

Something fun.

Re:Regardless

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Regardless of what you install there's no guaranteed way to stop your kid from stumbling upon boobs on the internet.

Yes, boobs in both senses of the word. And most likely he will stumble on to the idiot-inane-nincompoop sense first. Then the other.

Re:Regardless

[BadAnalogyGuy]

I'm going to agree.

My 5 year old has his own account on the Vista machine at home. He knows how to load up Chrome. He has accounts on Youtube and Netflix and can watch what he wants whenever he wants.

It keeps him occupied for hours at a stretch. It really frees me up to go shopping and other things that would have been tough with him along.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

I can think of a few pictures that might traumatize a 4 year old.

If you think titties are all the Internet has to offer, I don't know what to tell you.

Re:Regardless

[gman003]

Most filters are effective at stopping accidental viewings. If the user actually tries to access porn, it will fail sooner or later, emphasis on the sooner. But, given that the kid is four, it seems unlikely he's going to be typing "free porn xxx" into Google.

If you just want casual filtering, I would recommend OpenDNS. Just set your DNS server to 208.67.222.123, and it will quietly block porn, malware and warez sites. I haven't found many false positives either. It won't catch everything, but if you want to delay teaching your kid about such things until he's mature enough to understand it, it works well enough.

As for productivity software, try letting the kid loose on Blender. Open-source 3d modelling/rendering program. Might be a bit slow on netbooks, but if the kid's creative, he'll find something to do with it.

Re:Regardless

[BadAnalogyGuy]

I didn't mention, but this has also taught him how to read and spell many words. He needs to know how to spell words to enter them as search phrases into the Youtube and Netflix search box.

So it's educational, as well as engrossing for him.

Re:Regardless

[skyride]

Blender? for a 4 year old? are you actually serious?

The thread below this pretty much sums up my feelings here.

Re:Regardless

[Keebler71]

Install Windows Steady State on the machine after you set it up and before you give it to him. It is designed for places like computer labs, libraries, schools, etc... that don't want kids or malicious user wrecking too much havoc. Lots of features but the gist is you have full control over what users can do (by account), how long they can be online, what drives and resources they have access to, etc. There is even a rudimentary site blocker so you can allow playhouse disney, or whatever kids sites you know are safe without letting them have free reign over the net or having to manage this at the firewall. Highly recommend it.

Re:Regardless

[sharkey]

Setting the homepage to http://slashdot.org?

Re:Regardless

[metrometro]

> Regardless of what you install there's no guaranteed way to stop your kid from stumbling upon boobs on the internet.

Yes, but that shouldn't stop you from trying. A 4-year-old should be on a whitelist-only browser. Also, put some discrete logging on the router. Better to know. I m

Re:Regardless

[Opie812]

If it were just boobs, I'd have little problem with that. The thing that bothers me (have first kid on the way) is the fat-end-of-the-baseball-bat-up-the-poop-shoot type stuff that's easily available. Call me a prude, but I think that stuff should be saved for when, I dunno, the kid is 9.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

Regardless of what you install there's no guaranteed way to stop your kid from stumbling upon boobs on the internet. Plus who's to say it's something to worry about at all. They certainly didn't traumatize me.

Are you sure? I mean, you post on Slashdot.

Re:Regardless

[lunchbox134]

BAD's first post made me think of a parent giving their child their smartphone to play with while they are shopping. I couldn't figure why people were asking for his information and such. If it keeps him/her entertained, why not, with supervision, of course. it would certainly free up shopping trips which can be hard with a kid acting-up for everyone involved, parents, other customers, and employees, who in my experience can be fired for saying the wrong thing to, or in front of customers, all it takes is one complaint of that nature.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, not that dig a deal, didn't bother me when I first saw them, here's a pair right here.

Re:Regardless

[gman003]

It's like digital silly putty. I'm not expecting the kid to actually make something cool, but I'm sure he'll have fun making ridiculous shapes and blobs.

Re:Regardless

[keeboo]

They certainly didn't traumatize me.

Some people may disagree.

Re:Regardless

[spike2131]

Exactly, why the censorship?

Because the kid is going to have to learn to evade on-line security systems one day. Best that he start that at home, with an early lesson on sneaking around Dad's proxy server.

Re:Regardless

[SeaFox]

Maybe he was referring to Windows Vista.

Re:Regardless

[skyride]

Well ye if they were 10 years old or so, sure. But at the moment, the kid will only just barely understand how to use a mouse and keyboard and navigate the machine at all. So why not just get him real silly putty instead?

Re:Regardless

[hairyfeet]

I may be the token Windows guy around here but as to what apps? I'd just load Edubuntu and call it a day. I believe in the right tool for the job and Edubuntu not only has plenty of learning apps for ALL ages, it also has built in "net nanny" style filtering he can turn on if he is worried about teh titties. Although frankly it is a waste of time, as we old guys didn't have the Internet and still found teh titties just fine, thank you VERY much.

I never understood the "fear of teh boobies" we seem to have in this country. It reminds me of that old saying Joe Bob Briggs had "You can't show a titty unless it has a knife in it. This is America dammit!"

Re:Regardless

[ifiwereasculptor]

I don't think boobs are the problem (they never are - lack of them, on the other hand, can be pretty destructive). I know I'd want to shield my child from the vicious words of a deranged Youtube/Slashdot commenter such as myself.

Re:Regardless

[jedidiah]

A 4 year old should have no interest in boobs and flee from them should they be encountered.

Filtering is entirely unnecessary and undermines their ability to grow up and fend for themselves.

Ultimately, you want something that is going to be low maintenance and not terribly prone to accidental malware infections.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

As for productivity software, try letting the kid loose on Blender. Open-source 3d modelling/rendering program. Might be a bit slow on netbooks, but if the kid's creative, he'll find something to do with it.

Seriously? Do you think a 4-year old can figure out Blender's user interface?

Re:Regardless

[the_womble]

I have a eight year old and a two and a half year old, and partly agree (although I would tend to somewhat higher limits), but you should also consider that a lot of "soft" porn distorts people views of sex and the opposite sex.

As for the original question, my two and a half year old uses Gcompris by herself, including navigating between different games, The (about to be) eight year old Google's when she is doing her homework, watches videos on Youtube (she learned to sing Panis Angelicus by repeatedly watching a Youtube video), I have just started teaching her Logo (using Kturtle), she plays some games (I largely restrict her to strategy and puzzle game so its mostly chess, Batle for Wesnoth, and the like) and a lot more

The four year old can certainly manage Gcompris, and might manage some of the stuff I mentioned my older daughter uses - I must add Celestia, and Stellarium. On Linux there is KDE Edu and some other education meta packages, but it would be tedious to list everything in them, and I do not know how much of it is available for Windows.

As for the "kids should be outdoors crowd":

1) They can do both, and should not be forced outdoors if they prefer to be in
2) Slashdot is probably full of people who spent their childhoods with books, gadgets, etc. rather than outdoors
3) Its better to do something interactive with a computer than to passively watch TV which is the activity it is most likely to displace.

As for the

Re:Regardless

[windcask]

Exactly, why the censorship?

You're questioning why a 4-year old shouldn't be allowed to look at porn on the internet, as if it's some sort of free speech issue? What the hell is wrong with you?

Re:Regardless

[GoochOwnsYou]

Boobs maybe not, after all if your child is 4, it would have only been a few years (maybe 3.5 years) since he had direct access to them anyway.

However, Goatse, Tubgirl, 2 Girs 1 Cup and /b/ can traumatize adults let alone kids. Supervision is the best key. Leaving a 4 year old alone with direct internet access is not something I would consider wise

Re:Regardless

[williamhb]

Plus who's to say it's something to worry about at all. They certainly didn't traumatize me.

Riiiiiight, because Slashdotters are famous for their healthy relationships with women and their unrivalled excellence at communicating with the opposite gender.

Re:Regardless

[mysidia]

Regardless of what you install there's no guaranteed way to stop your kid from stumbling upon boobs on the internet. Plus who's to say it's something to worry about at all. They certainly didn't traumatize me.

It occurs the gender and personality of the child matters. If the 4 year old is a girl... stumbling upon boobs might be even less a thing to be concerned about. Some renditions of the female breasts are artistic, and shouldn't be kept hidden from children of either gender anyways. It's obscene stuff that should be avoided, and mandating use of Google search with Safe Search enabled and Safe Search locked with a permanent non-expiring cookie setup can go a long way.

Perhaps parental supervision and limited/zero internet access allowed when parent not present is a better defense than any 'web filtering' program that won't protect against chat rooms where creative code languages are used.

As for software... children find the most use of games, I think. Most "educational" games suck. Most of the decent ones are ancient Apple II games, I think.

Look for real time strategy games, and puzzle games like Tetris that require fast thinking and are accessible to almost anyone.

And of course single-player RPGs are a great idea, some text being involved can be an encouragement for the child to learn to read faster, no addictive MMOG stuff.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a eight year old and a two and a half year old, and partly agree (although I would tend to somewhat higher limits), but you should also consider that a lot of "soft" porn distorts people views of sex and the opposite sex.

I am confused. Your "higher limits" statement can be validly interpreted as "I advocate letting my youngsters see the baseball bat-up-the-ass imagery at ages < 9" because you think that "soft" porn distorts people's views of sex. The implication would be that you contend that the baseball bat stuff is part of the normal spectrum of sexuality and you want your children to be exposed to it in order to be 'well rounded' rather than skewed by "soft" porn.

Conversely, you might believe that showing children boobies is not necessarily a good idea.

I admit that I originally interpreted your comment as the former with quite a raised eyebrow. Sadly, given the outlandish nature of many of the comments around here, I felt justified in making this interpretation.

CAPTCHA: specify

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Fucktard, he meant that even "soft" porn is bad for people, it distorts their views of sex and the opposite sex.

Re:Regardless

[BadAnalogyGuy]

A 4 year old should have no interest in boobs and flee from them should they be encountered.

This isn't really true. My kid is 5 and he loves boobs. Since his mom died, our neighbor comes over once a day to breastfeed him (and has since she passed away when he was 2).

He sees boobs on the internet sometimes but it doesn't faze him at all. He isn't looking for that. He'd rather watch Thomas the Tank Engine or Jungle Junction.

But it's definitely not something he flees from. If anything, it probably just makes him hungry.

Re:Regardless

[PopeRatzo]

Regardless of what you install there's no guaranteed way to stop your kid from stumbling upon boobs on the internet.

You know, that's interesting. I spend a fair amount of time on the Internet and I have never, ever "stumbled" upon pictures of breasts that I haven't been specifically looking for.

Now, I've stumbled on a few boobs, but usually I just mod them down and move along.

Re:Regardless

[YrWrstNtmr]

Regardless of what you install there's no guaranteed way to stop your kid from stumbling upon boobs on the internet

good grief...did you actually read and understand what he wrote?
Not 'censorship', but rather deleting the already existing porn off a netbook that he is giving a 4 year old.

Or would you rather he give the kid the netbook, preloaded with porn? "Here ya go kid...have a nice life!"

GMAFB

Re:Regardless

[tomhudson]

Or a Wii? Wave your arms around and things happen. Move the steering wheel and crash into another car. Kids get that at an early age.

Re:Regardless

[PaKL]

Hahahahah I have two boys who have to endure theirs dads liking of using a laptop loaded with Linux acting as the proxy, gateway, firewall.
I use Dans Guardian as a content filter and they HATE it LOL
I love the filter though and have been using it for many years. It has a wonderful where I can adjust the level of filtering based on the average age of those going through the filter. Naturally you can add certain IPs to not go though it.
Thankfully they have found no way to bypass it YET :D

Re:Regardless

[pspahn]

Just because your brain is no longer spongy, that doesn't mean a young child can't learn how to do something new. If you can teach them language, you can teach them how a UI works.

Re:Regardless

[wvmarle]

Ultimately, you want something that is going to be low maintenance and not terribly prone to accidental malware infections.

If that's what you really worry about start by not using Windows. A kid not knowing better won't realise it's not "the real thing".

And for the rest I wouldn't worry too much either. Set Google to return "safe search" results only and the chances of accidentally running into anything you may call objectionable are about as slim as with a self-maintained filter.

Re:Regardless

[Culture20]

Gotta admit it's better than putting five kids in a closet, shoving a bed against the door, and going to party at a club while two children die of asphyxiation, but it's still wrong.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

There is absolutely no way a 4 year old could use Blender.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

when the child is old enough to bypass your proxy, they are old enough to see boobies on the internet.

Re:Regardless

[Matrix14]

When I was 10, I was making elaborate 3D models in a modeler called Form-Z, and, while I like to think I'm pretty smart, I don't think that it was that hard. Kids from like 8 to 12 have an incredible ability to hyperconcentrate on cool things like that.

When I was five, I was using a mouse to make drawings in KidPix. I don't think it is that unreasonable to expect a four year old to have a lot of fun with blender. And you are vastly underestimating them if you think they can't use a mouse.

Re:Regardless

[camperdave]

Does Windows Steady State work on Wine, or is there some linux version that your link doesn't mention?

Oh wait! You weren't suggesting loading Windows on the machine? Sheesh! That's worse than leaving him alone while you go shopping.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

In the heyday of popups - the late 90's, I do recall a few instances of getting into popup hell with a fair number of explicit pornographic ads. Man... I had put those out of my memory. I remember having to hard reboot my computer because of all the windows that kept opening. I would like to get stabby with the person that decided onUnload was a valid javascript event.

Re:Regardless

[lifesizeactionfigure]

WSS is going EOL very soon. Grab it before it's gone.

Re:Regardless

[monkyyy]

hmmmmm i`d like to see a 4 year old learn it, as most adults couldn't but is that because they didnt grow up messing with tech or is it something that requires large amount of patience

Re:Regardless

[aliquis]

Yeah, what the hell _is_ wrong with me?

Have you watched porn? Are you corrupt? Do you think filtering will stop them from ever seeing porn?

Re:Regardless

[Huntr]

Right on. A lot of /.'ers act like seeing a naked boob or crank is the same as, oh, I don't know, seeing a dude screw a dog. It's ok if my young child (3.5 yrs) gets a glimpse of the former, but I'd rather she didn't have knowledge of the latter. Why this viewpoint is anathema here, I don't know.

Re:Regardless

[euphemistic]

Probably should learn to walk before running, in this case maybe The GIMP would be a better starting point.

Re:Regardless

[hardwarefreak]

Regardless of what you install there's no guaranteed way to stop your kid from stumbling upon boobs on the internet. Plus who's to say it's something to worry about at all. They certainly didn't traumatize me.

What happens when the kid has already turned off Google Safe Search, then searches for "rooster" as they discussed chickens and roosters in class that day, at age 5. Rooster gives "cock" as a synonym, so he searches "cock". Then he hits the images button. Some of what he sees _will_ be traumatizing and will prompt questions to the parents. This is a far cry from coming across an issue of Playboy and seeing boobs as you and I did as youngsters. Google and the web are a game changer here and the potential for trauma is high, as well as other consequences.

Re:Regardless

[DarwinSurvivor]

I have no problem with that but the kid would probably have more fun in inkscape. The GIMP is mostly for manipulating existing things. While you can start from scratch in GIMP, it is just easier and more fun in inkscape since you get rectangle, circle, etc tools.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming of course that the kid doesn't view Blender's UI as the form the monster under the bed takes during the daytime.

Re:Regardless

[Belial6]

I would agree. I used Ubuntu with my son when he was one. Actually formatted his drive and made him reinstall it himself when he turned two. This was just before Edubuntu was released. gCompris was awesome for him. It is probably below the level of a bright 4 year old, but if the kid hasn't got at least a couple of years of computer use under his belt by 4, it might be just right for him. It has some nice programs for teaching kids how to use a mouse by letting them uncover pictures. It starts off with just moving the mouse over large tiles, and works it's way down to double clicking on small tiles to show the pictures.

As for the "fear of the boobies", I tend to agree, and have never restricted my child from seeing nudity. I don't put porn in front of him, and at 6, he hasn't gone looking for it. Naked people just don't faze him though. He does understand that there are appropriate times to be naked, and inappropriate times. While he was figuring it out, there were many times that he would ask if something on tv was inappropriate or not, and where he could run around in his underwear, and where he could not.

That being said, the idea that violence is OK to see, and sex is not OK, isn't entirely crazy. Violence is a natural human urge that we learn to control so that we can live in and have the benefit of society. This urge is displayed in children from pretty much as soon as they are mobile enough to bang things together. If not taught about violence, a child will be vicious by the age of 2. The urge for sex on the other hand is something that most humans don't start to feel until they become adults, generally between the ages of 8 and 15. 13 being the classic age that many cultures across the planet recognize as being average.

One of the big problems is that our culture doesn't recognize the difference between nudity and sex. Nudity is something that is perfectly normal for prepubescent kids. Sex, not so much. Our screwed up culture has this backwards. You can't have a naked woman on TV, or even worse, a naked man, but you can have anthropomorphizing characters performing auto-fellatio in Shrek 2, and Man/Dozen woman orgies in Happy Feet, and people that would be horrified by a naked body are perfectly happy.

Even more bizarre than no nudity unless it has a knife in it, is the idea that nudity is bad for children, but tranny jokes, and giving oneself oral in the town square and huge orgies are good clean kiddie fun.

Re:Regardless

[cognitivesudo]

Depending on exactly how old, try Edubuntu, an ubuntu based distro geared towards education. Fun games, easy parental control. If the netbook can handle it, which it should, if it can run XP.

Re:Regardless

[fake_name]

It's too late. If you don't start them training with Blender before they can speak they'll never be able to master the interface.

Re:Regardless

[nospam007]

3 years ago, he sucked on them, so he'll think 'Breakfast' and not 'Boobies!'.

Re:Regardless

[digitig]

Exactly. Pictures of naked people will do nothing worse than give them unrealistic expectations of the adult human form, and the pictures they see on TV and on posters of clothed people will do just the same. If they find two girls, one cup, though -- well, kids can be picky eaters at the best of times, I dread to think how long it could take to get them eating again. And do we really want them trying to do a goatse?

Re:Regardless

[YttriumOxide]

Well ye if they were 10 years old or so, sure. But at the moment, the kid will only just barely understand how to use a mouse and keyboard and navigate the machine at all. So why not just get him real silly putty instead?

You're not giving enough credit to the learning potential of 4 year olds. I got my first computer at 4 - an Apple ][+. Within a week, I was able to put a disk in and type the appropriate commands to determine what was on the disk and then how to start it.
At 6, I was playing a game and asked my step-father, "Why is it when I press 'j" the man runs left, and when I press "k" he runs right? How does the computer know to do that?". So he showed me the source code (in Apple BASIC) and we changed the "i, j, k, m" keys to "e, s, d, x" (which was more comfortable for me as a left hander). After that, I was hooked to the idea of coding and kept modifying every Apple BASIC program I could find. Within a year, I was writing my own little games (mostly text adventures with lots of gosubs).

I see NO problem for a 4 year old to be given Blender and mess around a bit making blobs and other random looking shapes. Within a couple of years (assuming it held their interest), they'll be doing some pretty nice stuff.

Re:Regardless

[Hypoon]

I remember, and have pictures to prove it! I was on the computer at a very young age; I was even using DOS at the age of four. I understood the basic concepts and got along just fine. Prior, I was using custom menus made by my dad. Yes, I could read and spell, although hand writing is still debatable. Admittedly, I remember thinking "and" was spelled "n" and similar things (wait, maybe I was just ahead of my time!!). Internet access wasn't available as far as I'm aware, but I think my dad dialed into my uncle over the phone every once in a while. I didn't start getting into that kind of stuff until Windows 98 (SE). Memories.... I messed with all kinds of settings. My rule of thumb: if it asked me if I was sure, the answer was (almost) always NO!

Re:Regardless

[gknoy]

... that you know of. ;)

Re:Regardless

[PaKL]

True ! But as long as they continue to complain about its presence I am led to believe they have not bypassed it :D

Re:Regardless

[BitZtream]

Although frankly it is a waste of time, as we old guys didn't have the Internet and still found teh titties just fine, thank you VERY much.

Yea but its different now.

Paper porn is near dead, and sneaking peeks through your neighbors window at their mom will net you a life time sex offender tag. To top it off, none of the 'older kids' you'd learn the old ways from know how to do anything but find porn on the Internet now days.

Its a sad state of affiars for finding decent boobies for kids these days :(

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

I strongly agree with the edubuntu approach. My daughters laptop has it and I was amazed at the things and danes she found on it. They are designed for teaching while playing and are loads of fun.

It doesn't conflict with her outdoor activities as long as we don't allow it to.

Re:Regardless

[Phoghat]

Don't let the computer be your babysitter.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. My son has been using edubuntu since he was five. He works that machine like nobody's business. He does have access to youtube, but spends his time there looking for hints on how to beat the "boss" on Super Mario Galaxy 2. Funny, I didn't show him how to do that. Heck, I didn't even think of it! Either someone at school told him, or he figured it out on his own.

Re:Regardless

[windcask]

There is a world of difference between seeing porn when you're 15 or 16 and when you're 4. And "porn" is a broad classification; it can cover everything from simple boob exposure to BSDM, insertions, bestiality and coprophilia, which no one should ever have to see (unwillingly).
A child with unfiltered internet access probably won't be harmed for life by seeing a pair of boobs, but it doesn't take studies or citations to figure out that anything more than that will probably at the very least give the child nightmares and at the worst will cause some long-term emotional and mental problems.

Re:Regardless

[LinuxAndLube]

You really want your kids to end up on Slashdot?

Re:Regardless

[aliquis]

I wonder if it's even very likely the child will end up with porn. But who knows. To big subject to discuss on /.

Filter away.

At least don't filter _EVERYTHING_ to only what you "approve" :/

Re:Regardless

[PopeRatzo]

So maybe the most important thing to install on your 4 year-old's computer is Ad-Block and/or Ghostery.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

Get him a nice easy language - like UCB Logo ....

Also, chockfuls of video games - they help you want to learn about computers like no other tool.

Besides that, get some nice kits (Lego mindstorms) and that'll help him get going soon!

Re:Regardless

[CronoCloud]

Maybe Tuxpaint or xpaint instead of inkscape?

Re:Regardless

[ysiedner]

I completely agree. Just completed an EdUbuntu build for my grandchildren. Cranked up Nanny for their mother. The kids love it!

Re:Regardless

[arkane1234]

Just FYI, you've publically posted that you leave your 5 year old child in front of an internet-enabled computer while you go do things.
I just thought I'd highlight that for you, just in case you didn't mean to embarrass yourself.

Re:Regardless

[tibit]

Different kids can be very different at same age. You can have a 4 year old that fluently reads two languages, and another one who just watches TV all day and is useless for anything else. My daughter is no genius, but she can navigate YouTube just fine at age 6, and is quite interested by space- and weather- science flicks. A couple days ago I caught her watching an illustrated lecture on the origins of the solar system. She found it herself. It doesn't matter whether she understands everything out of it, but at least she is exposed to knowledge and gets seeded to ask more questions.

Re:Regardless

[pxc]

Nope, but a 4 year old is a hell of a lot less likely (or motivated) to see porn than a 13 year old if you put a filter on the computer. It's not putting your kid in a straight jacket. Guess what? Healthy 4 year olds don't want to see porn! Do you take your toddlers to see gore movies, too? It's not hard to accept that letting a little kid see a scary movie is a mean and careless thing to do, because it will give them nightmares and make them cry. Do you think porn is any different or easier for them to handle?

Re:Regardless

[arisvega]

Blender? for a 4 year old? are you actually serious?.

Absofuckinglutely. Do not underestimate their intelligence; everything that will get the kid to programming. I was introduced to BASIC at the age of 4, and some months later I was making the computer flash colors while playing music, copied from the radio (by me) using the BEEP statement (the one where one controls the duration and frequency of the beep). All in one go, because I had no tape to save it in (Spectrum Sinclair 48k). Boy if I only had access to Blender back then, I would be friggin' directing Pixar by now.

Re:Regardless

[jvin248]

Is the 4yo past the destructive "inquisitive" 2-3yo phase yet? If not then find an old desktop rather than the netbook.
You may want to get a standard keyboard for them and a regular mouse (usb plugs right into the netbook)

Start them with Edubuntu and set up dansguardian. Make sure flash & etc can get them on disney, nickjr, game gecko, etc. give them a user id, not root, and make the login simple (like their name for user id and password - they like that and helps with pre-school). Then get the web browser bookmarked on some reasonable sites (like nickjr, etc). Load up the linux games with 'tux' (tux racer, tux paint, the tux side scroller like mario bros, etc).

You'll have to learn these programs to teach them, and be interactive with the creation process, but Synfig, Blender (look up the "Sintel" movie), Pencil, scratch programming (more like 6-7yo though), and then look into some music programs like Hydrogen drum machine and Openshot video editor. The idea is to get to a point where they can create their own stop-motion cartoon "movies" with your help to tell their own stories. The stories will be awful to you, but magical to them, and they will love your participation.

Re:Regardless

[BobMcD]

Does Windows Steady State work on Wine, or is there some linux version that your link doesn't mention?

Oh wait! You weren't suggesting loading Windows on the machine? Sheesh! That's worse than leaving him alone while you go shopping.

A) 'Windows sucks' is a tired, tired troll, even on slashdot.

B) You failed to mention achieving the same results via LiveCD-style boot to distro of choice, which could have at least been trolling disguised as being helpful.

Re:Regardless

[Ozymandias_KoK]

You let a neighbor zombie, 3 years dead, nurse your kid? Are you INSANE? (However, his immunity to zombieism will probably be a credit to the species if we can hold off long enough for the genes to make it into broad circulation...)

Re:Regardless

[Cruciform]

Forget Blender. Sculptris.

Maybe not for a 4 year old but a little kid can have a blast with Sculptris.

Re:Regardless

[Monkeedude1212]

That'd be the best time to learn it. Because kids actually LIKE learning if its stuff they are interested in.

The other thing kids love to do? Create stuff. Notice Play Dough, Lego, Kinex, and the hundreds of other popular kids toys which aren't much of anything but materials to build with?

Blender is exactly that kind of tool - the only think you need to do is show him the basics. Make a cube, make a sphere, resize, rotate, the normal stuff. If you simply do it the long way he'll pick it up quickly. If he is interested he might youtube "blender" and see some cool stuff, and then you just have to watch out, he'll be working at Pixar before he's out of Highschool.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. Other fun creative tools I found when I was younger was a free version of Flash, some simple music software, and I wish I had known about Audacity a lot sooner (or that it was even around when I was younger). I don't know why, but in the ages from 4-7, I had this odd fascination with slowing down, or speeding up, or reversing, or echoing my voice or other voices merely in the windows Sound Recorder. I must have spent HOURS just fiddling around with all the combinations and permutations of those effects - mastering speaking backwards and how to make it sound like you actually just fell down a bottomless pit. I dunno, maybe it was just me, or maybe kids like playing with Sound as much as they do like playing with Dough - or playing with light (aka colouring).

Re:Regardless

[skyride]

This isn't directly at the parent post, but more in general at the people who are disagreeing with my post.
I'm not saying that a 4 year old couldn't use Blender, my point is, how is that in any way helpful to their development? Children at that age need physical things that they can play with and understand like silly putty, paint, crayons, lego, etc. If you do want to get a little more technical then sure, some Mechano wouldn't be a bad idea, but how on earth do you expect them how to understand fairly complex abstract concepts in a virtual world that most grown adults struggle with when they haven't even had a chance to see how the real world thing they are re-creating works?

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, just install a logger of some sort to check what he is browsing and find a way to talk to him about what you think is "bad" stuff... no way to stop someone who wants to find something as I see it... but you can help him to stay in the right path and prevent things to be nocive for him.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

Although frankly it is a waste of time, as we old guys didn't have the Internet and still found teh titties just fine, thank you VERY much

I looked forward to trips to the barber shop for that very reason. Dad had a "That's my boy" attitude, or more precisely "He ain't gonna learn any younger." And to comment on a thread up the page a bit, back in the day when I was a kid ('50's and early '60's), unless the weather was really bad, on holidays, weekends, summer vacation, whatever, Mom booted my happy ass out the door right after breakfast. Was allowed in at noon for lunch, 6 for dinner, and had to get home when the street lights came on. After school depended on homework. If it was done and still light out - so was I.

Re:Regardless

[tehcyder]

Exactly, why the censorship?

You think removing pr0n from a gift to a four year old is censorship?

Only on slashdot...

Re:Regardless

[b0bby]

Regardless of what you install there's no guaranteed way to stop your kid from stumbling upon boobs on the internet. Plus who's to say it's something to worry about at all. They certainly didn't traumatize me.

When my kids were younger, I installed filters on their machine (actually, I used ProCon on Firefox with a whitelist). It wasn't because I was afraid of them stumbling upon boobs. I wanted them to be able to access certain sites with content that I saw as edutainment - stuff they would enjoy, with some educational value. I didn't want them to spend all day watching cat videos or Fred on youtube. I wanted to have a computer in their room, and not have to worry about them seeing videos that would lead to nightmares (which has happened anyway, but at someone else's house). They complained for a while, but I'll watch cat videos with them sometimes, and if they hear of something at school that they must see I'll let them see it, and they are resigned to the fact that their computer isn't unlimited access. They are kids, and I'm the parent, and as they get older they'll get more access.

To the original question - I've tried Edubuntu, but went back to XP because so much of what the kids want to do is online and in Flash, and the Flash support in Linux always seemed to be one step behind where their favorite sites were. So I'd advise Firefox with ProCon, and a list of sites like Webkins in the whitelist. Edubuntu (actually, just Ubuntu + the education packages seems better, the Edubuntu distro seems to be really aimed towards a classroom setup) might do for a couple of years, but they quickly want to get online.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

Open DNS is a good choice, I'd also recommend Blue Coat's Free "K9" Software at getk9.com. Between the two it should get 99% of it cleaned, K9 also goes beyond web to boot. Both are easy for the parent to override any settings in case of over-blocks.

Re:Regardless

[MagusSlurpy]

There's a difference between "teh boobies" and "Mr. Hands" or "Two Girls, One Cup."

Re:Regardless

[Monkeedude1212]

but how on earth do you expect them how to understand fairly complex abstract concepts in a virtual world that most grown adults struggle with when they haven't even had a chance to see how the real world thing they are re-creating works?

That's because grown adults have had their "learning" hardwired once they reach a certain age.

The kid is 4, he's done his fair share of colouring, he's probably started playing with Lego, it's not as if he has no experience whatsoever with the real world. What WOULD you suggest to put on a laptop?

The Abstract kind of arts are the ones they are introduced to first. You give a kid crayons and paper and you don't instantly expect them to be drawing detailed schematics - no for the first bit they just scribble different colours on the page. Then over time they start drawing people, writing names, but still not proportional. Eventually they get to stick figures. Its a growing process.

Just like with Blender - I'm not expecting a nice 3D model to be the first thing they create, right off the bat. I might expect them to create some flat circles and maybe make a smily face out of basic shapes - if that.

If you were referring to the technical challenge that simply is "blender" - all of its hotkeys and somewhat Odd interface quirks - it only seems that way once you've used other modelling tools like Maya or 3DSmax or Softimage. To a 4 Year old those quirks won't be present.

If you are referring to the challenge of creating something complex when a child is four, then I revert to my previous example, your four year old won't be recreating the Mona Lisa either.

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

I went one further than that. I loaded a server with Squid Proxy and set my firewall router to not allow any IP directly on the internet except my proxy server and a few key devices. Even those devices are logged though. If my kids try to go to a porn site, they get google... or whatever page I decide to put up. Used to have one setup with a scarecrow and a note that they are doing something they aren't supposed to...

Had a 15 year old come over and stay for a few weeks while he was in summer school... He spent a good 10 minutes trying to get to an unauthorized site but getting google instead... Drove him nuts.

Re:Regardless

[Lumpy]

I agree. A 4 year old should start with something simpler.

Give him Maya first.

Re:Regardless

[Lumpy]

Why?

It's dumb to give him a Windows OS at all.

Far better to give the kid a locked down Ubuntu with the Netbook UI.

Re:Regardless

[Lumpy]

Actually yes, they are.

More Geeks have read and understand "How to win friends and influence people" than the brain-dead meat head jocks with the pretty-boy faces. Comprehend that book and you can pretty much, with some work; bed nearly any woman you desire. Married women are even easier to bed as they typically are married to a idiot that does not pay attention to them anymore.

Human interaction and influence is actually incredibly easy. Luckily most people are lazy and do not study it, or are un-wiling to make the changes to use it to the N'th degree..

Re:Regardless

[chill]

Yeah. By age 6 he should be able to spit out RenderMan code just by looking at common objects. :-)

Re:Regardless

[butalearner]

I'd say Sculptris is more like digital silly putty (or clay, if that's what you meant). Linked to developer's site instead of the new Pixelogic one.

Re:Regardless

[kd5zex]

Social Engineering 101, you have been burned...

Re:Regardless

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

How long before your 4 year old clicks on a goatse link?
While I agree that seeing a breast will not screw anyone up, you just can't unsee goatse.

Re:Regardless

[Antimatt3r]

Wow, you should not have been allowed to have kids. Seriously you leave your 5 year old while you go shopping!!! And not only that but now you put your address on the internet. Well 'Joe', you have even endangered your childs life even more. I mean now all someone needs to do is wait for Joe to go shopping and they have themselves a kid. Dont have a kid if you cant be responsible for them.

Re:Regardless

[Dishevel]

Do not really care if my kid finds some boobie pairs on the nets. Though I would hope that he gets into his mid teens before he has to experience goatse or 2Girls1Cup.

Re:Regardless

[Smauler]

I grew up in the early days of the web, when just about every ISP had unrestricted access to the alt.sex.* newsgroups. During my formative adolescent years (12-16 or so, I guess), I bypassed the simple restrictions my parents had placed, and got unrestricted access. Anyone who knows the alt.sex.* newsgroups knows how vile they can be - I uudecoded everything I could, and enjoyed some, and not others.

BSDM, insertions, bestiality and coprophilia you have to actively look for to get. Kids won't actively look for those things...

I'm not fucked up now, at least I think so. I've got a penchant for _late_ teens and early 20's girls, but I'm not sure that's that unhealthy. I've got an ok (and relatively conventionally normal) sex life and know what reality is.

Basically, my point is that really bad shit one has to go looking for. It's rare for it to drop in your lap - the exception to this is trolls to shock sites, which can happen on the most innocuous of websites, _which you cannot control_. Also, seeing really bad shit does not necessarily warp minds.

Re:Regardless

[Smauler]

Goatse, Tubgirl, and especially 2 girls 1 cup cannot be found easily.... you've got to actively search for them. Either that, or you're pranked with a link from _any_ website. Seriously, _any_ website, nowhere is "safe".

Re:Regardless

[skiman1979]

I would think one should be more worried about sheltering their kids from extreme violence than from sexual content. Why does it seem more ok to let kids watch violent movies where people are killing each other than to see a pair of boobs on a movie?

Maybe it's a population control thing...

Re:Regardless

[Smauler]

Married women are even easier to bed as they typically are married to a idiot that does not pay attention to them anymore.

Guess what shithead... you're fucking up families just for the sake of a quick fuck. Make you feel good?

I only fuck people I respect... quit treating women like objects, dimlow.

Re:Regardless

[RocketRabbit]

I'm 33 and have used Maya and Alias Wavefront and I find Blender to be a baffling experience.

Blender indeed.

Why not get the little tyke the home version of Matlab and get him to work designing custom circuits too? Perhaps he's precocious and could whip up a whole new operating system, if you just give him a shell prompt and access to the Gnu c compiler!

Re:Regardless

[RocketRabbit]

"Actually formatted his drive and made him reinstall it himself when he turned two."

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure you did. I bet he chose his own kernel options by age 3, right?

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

You have obviously never installed Ubuntu. You do not choose your kernel options. It is so easy you don't even know how to read.

Of course, the fact that you would accuse me of lying about this just shows how retarded our society has become. A two year old installing Ubuntu should elicit at most a response of "Huh, that is a little earlier than one would suspect." It should not seem so unbelievable that you would call someone a liar.

Maybe someday you will be exposed to children that are not retarded, and you can improve your view of humanity.

Re:Regardless

[windcask]

uring my formative adolescent years (12-16 or so, I guess), I bypassed the simple restrictions my parents had placed, and got unrestricted access.

We're talking about a 4 year old here. Whatever your opinions are about being a teenager and looking at porn, you had a more developed libido and at least some semblance of a worldview. A four year-old has neither.

Re:Regardless

[RocketRabbit]

I have indeed installed Ubuntu, and there's no way a 2 year old was doing it.

Sorry.

Good choice posting AC though.

Re:Regardless

[zhidian2011]

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Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually yes, they are. More Geeks have read and understand "How to win friends and influence people" than the brain-dead meat head jocks with the pretty-boy faces. Comprehend that book and you can pretty much, with some work; bed nearly any woman you desire.

Wow, you have an even more skew view of the world than I was expecting in a reply. In one fell swoop you revealed that all you understand about relationships is one pulp mass-market shallow book, that you think the world solely consists of "pretty-boy" jocks and (by inference ugly) geeks, and that the only thing you value in a relationship is getting sex. Yes sir, you are indeed an exemplar of a Slashdotter who does not have any understanding of healthy relationships or how to relate to the opposite gender.

Re:Regardless

[DarwinSurvivor]

Actually yes, though in a year or two he (she?) will probably quickly bore of tuxpaint.

Re:Regardless

[vn-simcard]

i don't know. can he verry titler

Re:Regardless

[tehcyder]

Right on. A lot of /.'ers act like seeing a naked boob or crank is the same as, oh, I don't know, seeing a dude screw a dog. It's ok if my young child (3.5 yrs) gets a glimpse of the former, but I'd rather she didn't have knowledge of the latter. Why this viewpoint is anathema here, I don't know.

A lot of people here are under eighteen and living at home and have grown up thinking they have a right to everything they can get their hands on.

Re:Regardless

[tehcyder]

Probably should learn to walk before running, in this case maybe The GIMP would be a better starting point.

You evil bastard.

Re:Regardless

[tehcyder]

I was introduced to BASIC at the age of 4

People on slashdot love saying things like this, but most kids (like most adults) are not interested in programming.

Re:Regardless

[tehcyder]

Oh wait! You weren't suggesting loading Windows on the machine? Sheesh! That's worse than leaving him alone while you go shopping.

Ha ha ha, ha ha ha, ha ha ha. p Twat.

Re:Regardless

[tehcyder]

put some discrete logging on the router

Or indiscreet key-logging, let 'em know you can check up on whatever they do.

Re:Regardless

[tehcyder]

A 4 year old should have no interest in boobs and flee from them should they be encountered.

Filtering is entirely unnecessary and undermines their ability to grow up and fend for themselves.

Ultimately, you want something that is going to be low maintenance and not terribly prone to accidental malware infections.

Just because your four year old doesn't go looking for boobs doesn't mean if they come across far worse stuff accidentally it won't give them nightmares or simply confuse the hell out of them.

And you try explaining to a four year old why those three men are doing that to that woman and the pig.

It's why we have ratings for films, there are plenty of 18 films I wouldn't want even a ten year old to watch, never mind a four year old. I know a lot of people here would call that censorship, I can only hope they don't have kids themselves.

Re:Regardless

[tehcyder]

Set Google to return "safe search" results only and the chances of accidentally running into anything you may call objectionable are about as slim as with a self-maintained filter.

Because no kid is capable of finding and checking the "off" button under advanced search?

I think you need to try a bit harder than that.

Re:Regardless

[QuantumBeep]

It's a valid question that isn't often answered.

Why, anyway?

Re:Regardless

[QuantumBeep]

This isn't really true. My kid is 5 and he loves boobs. Since his mom died, our neighbor comes over once a day to breastfeed him (and has since she passed away when he was 2).

what

Re:Regardless

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a fucking retard that does not even know what is in that book. Lumpy is spot on as well as DrunkenBum.. IT is a must read for anyone with an IQ over 80. Get a brain idiot; No wait don't. And don't read that book. It means I always win over you in every possible way. People that read that book are a complete success in work, life and love. People that pan it like you, well they are the losers out there.

HI LOSER!

Re:Regardless

[pclminion]

Plus who's to say it's something to worry about at all.

I don't think my three year old would be traumatized by it either, but I sure as hell will not allow it. What would happen if he mentions it while in preschool? "My dad lets me look at naked people on the computer."

My kid, you know, needs a dad who is not in a federal penitentiary.

Re:Regardless

[natehoy]

set pdenatic = "on";
No, you'd actually want pretty comprehensive logging. Not a series of separate, discrete solutions. On a completely unrelated note, though, you would want it to be discreet so it isn't noticed.;
set pedantic = "off";

Seriously...

Get a decent router (any of the Linux-based ones that can take aftermarket firmware would work, Tomato and the various HyperWRT variants are all capable of remote logging and even have some level of connection monitoring built-in, and I'm sure DD-WRT has it covered as well) and it'll dump logs to your computer, then you can sift through them with WallWatcher or similar. Or take your main computer, add a second Ethernet card to it, and run all your traffic through it, logging everything as it goes through.

Huh?

[Brett Buck]

Why in God's name would you give a computer to a 4-year-old? Give him a damn baseball or something, the last thing he needs in his formative years is to vegetate in front of a screen.

        Brett

Re:Huh?

[Nikker]

If anything give him a screw driver and let him take it apart tell him what all the parts do and possibly even get it back together.

Re:Huh?

[Picardo85]

I agree with Brett ... young kids should run around hurting themselves so that they learn not to do certain things later in life when they don't heal as easily. Climbing trees, biking, playing soccer, building stuff with hammer and nail ... in general stuff where you can hurt yourself or even better ... encourage him somehow to just use his imagination ... Personally i would give a 4-year-old DUPLO - the young kids version of LEGO

Re:Huh?

[Lumbre]

Yeah, why would you encourage him towards a life of living in his mom's basement, fighting brain-dead management, and with a computer as a girlfriend.

Oh, is that just me?

Re:Huh?

[aliquis]

Yeah, striking things with a bat or running around after balls seem so much better.

Re:Huh?

[Daniel Phillips]

Give him a damn baseball or something, the last thing he needs in his formative years is to vegetate in front of a screen.

My kid learned to read the spell lists in Oblivion at the age of three, how is yours doing with the baseball?

Re:Huh?

[Daniel Phillips]

Because taking apart a screwdriver is such an enriching experience.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

My dad gave my two year old son a soccer ball last month, he threw it down the stairs and grabbed my mom's iPhone. Kids aren't born with blank slates, they have natural inclinations. You can fight those inclinations, and the children, but all you end up doing is screwing them up. If the kid has an inclination towards gadgetry, support him.

Certainly as parents we will have to force our kids to recognize the need for physical fitness (just like brushing teeth, hands and household chores), and chase after them to make sure they get enough exercise, but that's just parenting.

Re:Huh?

[profplump]

Exactly. We all know that no useful work has ever been accomplished with a computer, and since they weren't around when I was 4 it's safe to assume that there's no use a 4-year-old could ever have for a device that can facilitate communication, entertainment, computation, artwork, reading, document creation, or access to the outside world. Clearly a round, static object is a more useful learning tool -- if you let him read the Interwebs he might learn about gravity from other people's work, rather than spending half his life trying to derive the laws of motion on his own -- a task for which the baseball is a nearly ideal tool.

Re:Huh?

[eleuthero]

development of fine motor skills comes later--four years olds are still working on gross motor skills (large movements with even the fingers). This alone is reason to encourage continued outdoor activity as without it, there might never be appropriate development for the kid and it could affect a variety of areas in his life.

Re:Huh?

[farnsworth]

Why in God's name would you give a computer to a 4-year-old? Give him a damn baseball or something, the last thing he needs in his formative years is to vegetate in front of a screen.

It's perfectly appropriate for a 4 year old to have access to a computer. There are plenty of times when it is not feasible to play baseball... Short winter days, rainy summer days, under-the-weather days, etc. Having a computer != "vegetate in front of a screen". There are plenty of things a little kid can do on a computer that are enriching. Of course he needs guidance. But he needs guidance in nearly every aspect of his life, just like every other four year old. You don't just give a kid a baseball and shove them out the door and expect them to have fun. Just like you don't just plop a kid down in front of a computer and expect them to learn anything.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, is that just me?

Nope, not just you.

Re:Huh?

[jwthompson2]

Because it's worth the time to have them start learning what is possible. All my kids, except the youngest ( 2 y/o) work on the computer for school and recreation. They all also go outside and engage with the bright orb of the sky. It is possible to do both and not be any poorer for it. I spent some time at the kids track that was organized for RubyConf a couple of weeks ago and while much of the stuff was too much for my six year old, she still really liked hanging around and doing what her dad does as best she could. She even went home and played "geek conference" with her siblings afterwards, keynote presentation and all. Not to mention all my kids love seeing what can be done with an Arduino. I got started programming not much older than my oldest daughter is now and I was in Boy Scouts, so I spent plenty of time going back and forth between equally fulfilling activities that exposed me to a broader range of what is out there to do and enjoy.

Re:Huh?

[aliquis]

I think his point was that moving around is good.

And it is, to. :D

They aren't exclusives :)

Re:Huh?

[CrazyJim1]

I first played Pac-man at age 3, and the experience stayed with me. I had a computer when I was like 4-6. I was copying from a book coding before I knew what any of the things I typed did. One of the programs I ran was a fun math game for adding/subtracting on TI-99. It is my strong opinion if someone would write a chain of computer math games from K-12, and then distributed them for free, there could be the start of a revolution in education. I actually plan on doing this if I get a gaming company running well so I have the resources and time to dedicate to a project for the world.

Re:Huh?

[farnsworth]

development of fine motor skills comes later--four years olds are still working on gross motor skills (large movements with even the fingers). This alone is reason to encourage continued outdoor activity as without it, there might never be appropriate development for the kid and it could affect a variety of areas in his life.

A computer does not prevent or conflict with outdoor activity unless it is used inappropriately. In late November in the US the sun sets at around 5:00pm, but no four year old is ready for bed at that time. Sure, there are books and movies and craft projects and family time, but these are not always available/desirable/possible. A four year old can handle PBS Kids just fine, and there are times when it is the best choice.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely! And he may even have talent. Playing sports should be started early.

The thing I've noticed in my travels, the "jocks" always have more opportunities than the "geeks" - and that includes engineers who played ball in school.

The computer skills will come and unlike coordination and other kinetic "senses", can be developed at any time.

I once had a tennis coach who knew who played as kids and who didn't - he said that adults don't develop this posture that the folks who learned as kids. He really couldn't put an exact finger on what it was...

Anyway, my point is: sports or music.

Re:Huh?

[eleuthero]

formatted the tag wrongly... sigh:

Child development

Re:Huh?

[Nikker]

Hey man you take what you can get.

Re:Huh?

[jrumney]

Personally i would give a 4-year-old DUPLO

By 4, most kids are ready to move onto the real thing. Duplo is for 1, 2 and 3 year olds who like to put things in their mouths and might choke on Lego, and aren't yet fully in control of their limbs so need the bigger size and tolerences of Duplo to avoid frustration.

Re:Huh?

[jhigh]

I agree with this. Giving a four year old a laptop is dumb if you plan on using it as a babysitter. However, let the kid play games on age-appropriate sites and this would be a great replacement for television time.

In response to the OP, and at the risk of starting a flame war, the first thing that I would do is wipe the thing and put some flavor of Linux on it. Expose them at a very young age to the fact that there is more to the world of technology than Microsoft and Apple. My kids are 8 and 10 and share a laptop with Kubuntu on it, and they love it. I like showing them all of the stuff that they can do it on and the fact that I can load it with software that does everything that they want to do without having to pay for any of it or violate (admittedly dumb) copyright laws.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Christ, I read that up to "a round, static object" wondering whether you were serious.

Thankfully you weren't.

Re:Huh?

[hedwards]

I have to agree, when I was a kid, the first time I touched a computer was when I was like 7 or 8, I didn't have access to a computer on a guaranteed basis until I was 11. While, I do admit that just because it was done that way isn't a justification, it did work out well. Much before 7 or 8 and it's unlikely to be any appreciation or understanding. It's a good age to start them out at, but that was without the internet.

I'd definitely recommend against putting internet on the thing until he's at least old enough to know to check with the OP before doing anything too stupid.

Re:Huh?

[hedwards]

Because learning to entertain oneself on rainy days is part of growing up. At age 4, kids definitely shouldn't be spending any time in front of a computer screen. Yeah, I know, I'm suggesting that it be done the way that it was with me, but hey, if it ain't broke don't fix it. At age 4, I hardly think that the need to use a computer is there. Hell even age 8 is young enough. the OP is hardly going to be condemning the tyke to computer illiteracy if he waits to allow regular access to a computer until he's a preteen.

OTOH, if he dose that rather than the normal things like balls and bikes that definitely could screw up the kid. It's necessary for human development to develop portions of the brain in a relatively consistent sequence failing to do so can and does have real consequences.

Re:Huh?

[hedwards]

Yeah, it's safe to assume that. Kids at that age are supposed to be developing social skills, coordination, imagination, sense of self and the ability to combine those. Sure a computer can help with imagination, but with the others it tends to be counterproductive for most people. On top of that, there's still plenty of time to gain computer literacy, I mean I started with computers in a basic way at age 8 or so, and my parents didn't own one till I was 11. I ended up being perfectly capable of using computers, more so even than the few friends I had who did have access to computers before that point.

The point being that at age 4, there's far more to lose by giving a kid a computer than there is to gain.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

you forgot:

"...turn down your damn hippy music and get off my lawn!"

Re:Huh?

[gman003]

How the hell are you going to start a flamewar on /. by saying "put Linux on it"? Unless the BSD guys start something, you'll hear nothing but agreement.

Re:Huh?

[farnsworth]

Because learning to entertain oneself on rainy days is part of growing up. At age 4, kids definitely shouldn't be spending any time in front of a computer screen.

Why has the computer become this pariah of a contraption to Monday-morning parents? What did kids do before Gutenberg? Before electricity? Before mass-produced toys like Lego or Lincoln Logs? Before board games? If you ask this of someone like Laura Ingalls Wilder, she will tell you that they were bored out of their minds and knew nearly nothing about the world they lived in.

There is nothing intrinsically harmful about a kid using a mouse to manipulate a screen. There are ways to use a computer that build social skills. Kids have an opportunity to learn something while they entertain themselves.

Once a day I make dinner for my kids, and I obviously cannot attend to them while I do so. I have to help them find something to do that will keep them occupied. Playing with Clifford The Big Red Dog or whatever for 30 minutes a day is not harmful, and it's the best choice for giving the kids something to do. Playing a game like Guitar Hero with friends is a truly enriching and fun experience.

It is true that letting your kid stay cooped up in their darkened room playing some FPS 16 hours per day *is* harmful. But there is a ton of middle ground here, and no shortage of appropriate uses that a four year old might have for a computer. Having a computer in the house is not a harmful or hurtful thing. Get over it.

Re:Huh?

[mcneely.mike]

Hey man, i took apart what i could get!

Re:Huh?

[monkyyy]

math booooo its just logic in a very boring way

puzzle games are the way to go

Re:Huh?

[mcneely.mike]

Yeah, striking things with a bat or running around after balls seem so much better. Well.... only if you are a psycho killer homosexual (my opinion; your mileage may vary)... by the way, if you are... i live at

Number One Observatory Circle
3450 Massachusetts Ave.
Washington, DC 20007

Re:Huh?

[icebraining]

What about sports, music AND a couple hours of computing per week? He's 4, it's not like he has to work 8 hours a day.

Re:Huh?

[windcask]

the first thing that I would do is wipe the thing and put some flavor of Linux on it. Expose them at a very young age to the fact that there is more to the world of technology than Microsoft and Apple.

I think that's kind of like saying it's best to make a kid listen to Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh before Big Bird, Barney and the rest of the liberal media can infect his mind with their deranged messages of tolerance and equality. Seriously; it's just going to confuse him when he gets to school and he has to un-learn what you've taught him about GNOME and KDE. Wait until he's old enough to recognize the difference between a computer and a television before teaching him alternative operating systems.

Re:Huh?

[JanneM]

Because taking apart a screwdriver is such an enriching experience.

Well, it is a completely different drink when you down the vodka neat then drink the orange juice as a chaser. The difference may be lost on many four-year olds I suspect, though.

Re:Huh?

[windcask]

Hate those round, static objects all you want, but the fact is many, many, MANY people have started successful careers in business and politics because those balls enabled them to attend good schools. Sitting in front of a computer might make you smarter, but success and smarts don't always go hand in hand...

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

I gave my 4-year-old a printing calculator. He also "played" on a computer with Reader Rabbit and virtual jigsaw puzzles. Later in life he won awards and earned degrees in Math, Physics, and Computer Science, and now works as a Software Engineer II. I believe these "playthings" were very beneficial in preparing him for for the technical world we live in today.

Re:Huh?

[greenreaper]

I learnt a lot from putting a torsion screwdriver back together. I had to look up the patent to learn how the bits fit together, though.

Re:Huh?

[jhigh]

Ignoring the unnecessary politics in your post, your concern sounds reasonable but in my experience is unfounded. Kids are far more open to change than adults. If a four year old is using Linux at home and then goes to school and they stick a Mac in front of him, as long as someone is telling him how to accomplish the tasks that he's attempting, he'll be fine. In fact, he'll probably be better able to adjust as an adult than a kid that's only ever been exposed to one type of system.

My kids use Kubuntu on their laptop, Windows XP when they use their mom's, and Mac OS at school. They just accept that they're different, just like cell phones all look different. If we can raise a generation of kids that don't just use Windows because it's all they've ever used, we may be way further ahead technologically 10 or 20 years from now...

Re:Huh?

[whoop]

I found it amazing how quickly my daughter could pick up moving around the 3D world of, well, World of Warcraft. A little before the age of three, she took about 15 minutes to went from holding the arrow keys down, spinning around circles and walking into walls, to holding the up arrow to walk and simultaneously pressing the left/right arrows to maneuver all over Ironforge. Doors and stairs were the coolest things for her to see. It was all fun and games, until she found the exit and got attacked by a wolf. That made her scream and run back to her room...

Give a kid a chance, and they can figure out quite a lot.

Re:Huh?

[carrioki]

There is a distro aimesd specifically at toddlers called Qimo. I haven't tried it myself, but it looks pretty cute, and if I were in a position to give a computer to a toddler, it's what I would go with.

Re:Huh?

[windcask]

Ignoring the unnecessary politics in your post,

I was merely pointing out the unnecessary politicization of a father's approach to teaching his kids computers. 9 out of 10 computers out there still run Windows, so there's no point in indoctrinating your kid with messages of "big bad Microsoft" until he's old enough to form his own opinion. The rest of your post seems reasonable. I don't have kids, so I suspect you'd know better than I would.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like you don't just plop a kid down in front of a computer and expect them to learn anything.

Case and point regarding slashdot users' grammar.

Re:Huh?

[sorak]

Give him a damn baseball or something, the last thing he needs in his formative years is to vegetate in front of a screen.

My kid learned to read the spell lists in Oblivion at the age of three, how is yours doing with the baseball?

He can spell "spalding". He can almost spell "ambulance", but he keeps doing it backward.

Re:Huh?

[wvmarle]

By his third birthday my kid was already playing happily with the small size version of Lego. He never really had the habit of sticking stuff in his mouth, that helps. But before his fourth birthday the Duplo was already largely ignored.

For most children four years is a little young for Lego, but also getting a bit old for Duplo (which is iirc rated 2-5 by the manufacturer).

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because having a computer is clearly mutually exclusive with having a baseball and playing outside. It is, of course, completely impossible to expose our kids to a variety of things.

Oh, and yeah, I was being highly sarcastic.

Re:Huh?

[d3jake]

Agreed. Give the kid books, legos, etc. No need to have his eyes glued to a screen just yet.

Re:Huh?

[Ecuador]

No, silly. He meant the kid should take apart the computer. And in fact suggests that he should do it while intoxicated, which I guess would be ok in some countries.
Obviously you can't easily take a screwdriver apart, I mean, I haven't heard of any vodka-phobe material to use as a filter...

Re:Huh?

[rolfwind]

Plus he wouldn't even have the chemical knowhow to analyze it in the first place. And if you're really unlucky, he'll just keep asking for that "special orange juice" after that.

Re:Huh?

[trytoguess]

I'm not quite sure how one would educate a child on how the various parts of a computer works, even in the most basic sense. What kind of analogy might work on a child? The simplest one I can think of compares a computer to a kitchen, and I'm not sure even that's simple enough for a four year old.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Out of curiosity did you ever watch TV as a child? do you think that watching TV is more or less beneficial to a child than playing on a computer? i didn't have access to a working computer (other than at school which is ALL i wanted to play with when i was there) until i was 14yr, and although i took to it quite well, i wonder if I'd be further along now if i had access to a computer to tinker with at home at a younger age.

Re:Huh?

[mabinogi]

it's not a case of "big bad windows" at all. The only politics is in your head.

It's a case of learning to be flexible and understanding the concepts rather than rote learning of a tool.
Its the same principle that has universities teach programming languages you probably won't use in the workforce, and why high schools offer spoken languages you'll probably never really use.

Re:Huh?

[PJ6]

It would be a mistake for you to assume everyone uses computers the same way you do. Children are industrious and youth offers a critical window for acquiring fluency for nearly everything. Very few people can make money playing baseball, but anyone with real computer skills can put food on the table. And if he spends hours and hours reading Wikipedia or starts learning how to code, that's huge - look at that, a budding scientist, programmer, or researcher wielding the greatest tools for learning and knowledge that man has ever created! Who knows what he'll do? I certainly wouldn't deny the little guy.

Re:Huh?

[aliquis]

You can "swing your bat" without killing anyone.

Well, unless you've got AIDS.

Re:Huh?

[Shadyman]

Printing calculators were awesome toys, I can attest to that. Later on, when it didn't work anymore, I disassembled it to see how it (used to) work.

Reader Rabbit, Math Blaster, etc were all epic learning games.

Of course, the first thing I had to be taught was how to start programs from the 5 1/4" floppies. (Stuffing carts in the back of VIC-20s came earlier.. Required less setup :P insert cartridge and joystick, flip RF converter to 'computer', turn on, play whack-a-mole, etc.) but I digress.

Re:Huh?

[Kernel Krumpit]

In the same spirit of sensationalism as "vegetate in front of a screen" would there be chewbacca, hot dogs and cheezies with that baseball?

Re:Huh?

[Darinbob]

No, the screwdriver is to take apart the drum to see how it works.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd recommend Meccano or something like that. I had it when I was a kid, and I made some pretty awesome stuff... A DIY racetrack set is also good, especially if it's electrical and has two or more controllers for racing. If nothing else, give him Bejeweled and Tetris and let him do puzzles. There is a pretty cool game on Steam called Mightier which you might also want to give him. It's hard to explain, so look it up.

Re:Huh?

[Belial6]

Yeah! Why would anyone want their 4 year old thinking. They should be learning that sports is what the world is about!

Re:Huh?

[Cimexus]

Agreed. Provided the kid isn't vegetating on it all the time, it adds to the experience of their formative years. A child of that age should be packing in as many experiences as possible - yes this includes outdoor activities, physical activities, mental activities and developing motor skills by manipulating real-world objects, but there's no harm in spending an hour or two clicking around on a computer either.

Admittedly I never had a computer ~of my own~ until 1995, at which point I was 13 years old (I'm 28 now). And what a beast it was: 486 DX4/100, 8MB of RAM (which I upgraded to 16 the next year) and a quad-speed (OMG) CD-ROM. But I did use other people's computers from a very early age. In fact, I started using computers in preschool (Apple IIs, no less), so I would have been around 4 years old at that time. A bit later, aged 7-10 or so, we were given an original IBM AT (completely with clicky keyboard) by my uncle who was upgrading to a 386. I figured out how to use DOS during those years, and by extension, the fundamentals of files, directories and using a CLI to manipulate them. BTW that IBM AT is still down the garage at my parents' place, and still boots fine (DOS 5.x). The hard drive rumbles like thunder but it keeps going - amazing considering the garage is uninsulated and I live in inland Australia where it would be exposed to a range of around -5 C -> 45 C each year (23 F -> 113 F).

Now of course, as a kid, it was mostly games that interested me. I remember spending a lot of time screwing around with autoexec.bat/config.sys/himem.sys/emm386 etc. trying to get more precious conventional memory to run games. But that was educational in itself, and is what got me interested in computers in the first place. It eventually led to an enjoyable career in my adult life, so I don't think it was harmful at all.

Re:Huh?

[Belial6]

In our house, the youngest recommended age has been considered the oldest that you can expect a child to be interested in a toy. The ages on toys are like the warnings on coffee cups declaring the contents hot. They are to prevent lawsuit when the slowest of our society injure themselves doing something that they should know better than doing. Although sometimes it is still fun to play with toys that don't challenge you intellectually.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

How the hell are you going to start a flamewar on /. by saying "put Linux on it"? Unless the BSD guys start something, you'll hear nothing but agreement.

BSD guy here. I agree.... put Linux on it. All the toddlers are using it. ;)

Re:Huh?

[wvmarle]

Yes... like all those baby toys rated "3+" with small parts warning... while no small parts to be found... that's just manufacturers covering their ass against law suits.

When reaching higher ages (say 5+) then in my experience the recommended ages aren't that far off.

Re:Huh?

[profplump]

I have no hate for baseballs. I just don't see how they're better than computers, while the GP apparently does.

It's also silly to talk about today's business/political leaders in a discussion about how computers might affect a 4-year-old -- virtually none of today's leaders had computers when they were 4 -- they're too old -- so there's no way to compare outcomes with and without.

Re:Huh?

[uninformedLuddite]

the first thing that I would do is wipe the thing and put some flavor of Linux on it.

Isn't there a law to stop this sort of behaviour?

Re:Huh?

[profplump]

What kind of computer have you been using?

A device that provides more communication tools inhibits social development? Does that apply to telephones too, or only to computers? Should we not let children use the phone?

A device that requires fine motor control and hand-eye coordination to operate -- not to mention the muscle memory developed by typing -- inhibits coordination?

The mastery of a tool used for both work and entertainment by adults around the world is detrimental to a child's sense of self?

It's also silly to compare yourself to today's 4-year-old -- unless you're 16 your peers mostly had the same exposure to computers that you did. But today computers are significantly more prevalent and today's 4-year-old will have peers that all lived in homes with computer since birth. That might be good or bad, but whatever the outcome it will by typical and expected among his peers.

/ Wishes you would take a look at what people who grew up without TV said about children watching TV.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's insensitive to people that have children when they are 4 years old. They seriously could die. Think of the little baby that has a torso just as tall as your cock is long. You're a geek. Geeks have ultra sized cocks. Make it grow any more inside the baby, it goes boom. Bloody boom.

Re:Huh?

[pinkushun]

The irony here is discouraging early geekdom on /. - Hell if I could have started sooner I would have!

Re:Huh?

[IhateMonkeys]

Throw in a bat (hells yeah!) and a glove while you are at it.
Otherwise he is just going to end up a cheeto eating, Red Bull swilling, chain smoking, self diagnosed Aspy, basement dweller.

Re:Huh?

[noidentity]

In my day, all we had to take apart were rocks. You kids don't know how well you have it.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at it with wonderment and say,
"I wonder what's inside this thing!"
then hand it back and go do something else.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

because kids are very inventive,
my son is 4 now, and even though he hacked his first macbook 250 (or was it 260..) duo at the age of two, agreed he was way too young, but now he knows how to use a computer... and doesn't play baseball, but does play football, bicycles and (tries to ) skateboard, the importance is to show what a computer is used for, so i'd recommend no shoot em ups, but more likely something like edubuntu.

Re:Huh?

[AliasMarlowe]

Unless the BSD guys start something, you'll hear nothing but agreement.

There are BeOS and Amiga fans here too, you insensitive clod!

Re:Huh?

[Bert64]

The computers kids will encounter in school will not be representative of what he might encounter outside of school...
In UK schools just a few years ago they had acorn archimedes (arm based boxes running riscos) computers, and used those to teach kids... These days, such machines are nowhere to be seen. I remember learning wordperfect for dos at school, i haven't seen that in years either.
And while the schools were using acorns and green screen dos machines, most kids had amigas or c64s at home.
Also schools don't generally have massive budgets, and are likely to be several years behind the technology curve in any case.

When the kids being talked about here leave school who knows what they might encounter. Teaching them that there are lots of different systems and how to adapt is absolutely the right thing to do.

Re:Huh?

[GrumblyStuff]

So your kid sees people constantly playing with something small in their hands and not running around outside playing. You might want to look into that.

Re:Huh?

[mcneely.mike]

Oh.... oh..ahhhhhh!
Oh, gross.... now my brain is gonna go blind from the mental picture.
Ohhhhhh.....(mental puke).

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

He's not ready for a laptop. It's not your job to turn him into a drooling idiot by age ten. A laptop will do that for him. He needs to learn to read books and have books read to him. Not ebooks, not articles on the web, not Disney. Books. As many others have said as well he also needs to learn fine motor skills you can't get from a laptop. I will give you a good example. My friend and I were put in charge of watching our other friend's nephew, while he went to an appointment. This little boy was 8 years old, a product of neglect by both parents being doctors. We quickly learned even though this little boy was 8 YEARS OLD. He had never been exposed to a ball, much less playing catch. We had to show him how to throw a fucking ball because his super smart parents were too busy to raise their son. Don't be like them. Don't be an enabler of mediocrity. He doesn't need a laptop, a DVD player, or any other electronic device for that matter. He needs his dad and uncle to show him how things work. Take him bowling, to the park, to the zoo, find some paper and crayons, get some sidewalk chalk, go fly a kite, anything but making him sit at a desk with a computer. After you are done with that give him another book. Read to him. Have hime read to you. If he can't read and write later he is doomed to mediocrity. It all starts now!

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey BSD guy here, and thats a great idea.

Put a plain OpenBSD install on there and let them go to town.
Building it yourself is always funner than having it built for you.

Better yet make him do the install.
Kids are smarter than you think.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything they want except the ONE thing a 10 year old would want to go on a computer for; Play any form of popular game?

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's only disturbing if you open your eyes.

Some technique as some use with fat chicks, but better! ;D

Re:Huh?

[kulnor]

Wait until he throws the iPhone down the stairs....

Re:Huh?

[dskzero]

You can do all that stuff in the computer! No need for physical pain either!

Re:Huh?

[dskzero]

You can for sure add some Linux and let them learn about it, but "exposing them at a very young age" to different stuff in the technology world will be as interesting for them as exposing them to the world of Wall Street.

Re:Huh?

[Lazy Jones]

young kids should run around hurting themselves so that they learn not to do certain things later in life when they don't heal as easily

That would suggest letting them surf the web, preferably with MSIE, so they can be responsible Internet users later on. There's far too many adults around who waste everyone's time and money at their workplace with getting their PCs infected with malware and sending "funny" chain emails to everyone.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well count Apple users to that group...

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

exactly or you will find them swinging that bat at each others instead...

Re:Huh?

[tibit]

There are no analogies that one needs. Explain it like it is. Use new concepts. Kids are great at compartmentalizing away what they don't understand; they'll come back to you with questions later.

Re:Huh?

[tibit]

A successful career in politics may not necessarily be a good thing, you know.

Re:Huh?

[Nikker]

Turn it on before the "surgery" and show him/her how the screen turns on and what the keys are like and what they do. After you take it apart let him play with each component (watching for components with sharp parts) and maybe even trying to get it running again with out the bezel. Not that I have any kids but I doubt a 4 year old will have the patients to play with a computer more than once or twice anyway before it gets dropped/slammed/sit on and finally broken. I also doubt the kid will have any type of incentive to check email or web sites.

Maybe if your lucky you will inspire the kid to start tinkering and one day you will come over to find your car on blocks and each part laying on the front lawn ;)

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be an enabler of mediocrity

Throwing a ball is far more mediocre than learning how computers work.

Re:Huh?

[spire3661]

Why in God's name wouldnt you give him easy access to the greatest repository of knowledge ever?

Re:Huh?

[spire3661]

Your statement is the equivalent of saying he should not have books at age 4. There is nothing wrong with allowing a 4 year old to browse the greatest library ever.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because a kid has a computer doesn't mean he can't do all this. Come on people.

Re:Huh?

[anyGould]

Yes... like all those baby toys rated "3+" with small parts warning... while no small parts to be found... that's just manufacturers covering their ass against law suits.

My understanding of this (as the proud owner of a soon-to-be 4yo) is that a manufacturer has to actively prove their product is safe for under 3 (nothing too small to swallow, nothing that can be torn *into* a size small enough to swallow, nothing nasty in the paint, etc, etc, etc, etc). For a lot of toy makers (especially if it isn't intended to be marketed to that young), it's just easier to say "no, it's not safe for under-3" even though it probably is.

The age ratings on games tend to be lowballed, I find. Warning: parental bragging ahead My kid's been playing Zombie Dice for a few months (rated 10+, for some odd reason), and she's better at that than she is at tic-tac-toe. Teaches counting, a smidge of strategy, and she can play it with the grownups (who have tired of Candyland - I'd burn that game if she didn't like it so much.)

Re:Huh?

[anyGould]

Yeah, striking things with a bat or running around after balls seem so much better.

The sad thing is that it's a downward spiral - kids don't go to playgrounds because "it's dangerous", so kids don't learn how to behave in playgrounds. Which is the big reason why playgrounds are dangerous.

My daughter falling off the equipment is the least of my worries (other than the mandatory parental heart attacks). She's in far more danger from the kids who never learned to look below them before jumping.

Re:Huh?

[Lumpy]

It's more fun that I had. All I had was a fork, butter knife and an electrical outlet...

Re:Huh?

[samuel.hurley]

I infer from the article, specifically the phrase "tech gene," that he wants his child to have a computer so that he can learn how to use it / tinker / maybe even write a simple program. Use the computer for creative/technical purposes, not merely to consume online entertainment media (youtube / netflix / porn / etc...).
When my dad got our first computer (a 22 MHz 486SX /w a 1x CD-ROM drive), obviously we didn't have an internet connection. So I learned how to draw pictures for my parents with MS paint, how to program simple games in Microsoft Q-BASIC, how to write a story in MS Write, and generally how to accomplish different tasks with the computer on my own. I think computers have come a long way these days, but unfortunately things like modern web browsers, streaming video, and highly interactive user interfaces have obscured the value of just learning basic computer literacy (and yes, I include the ability to write a simple program or shell script part of basic literacy).
Therefore, I agree with jhigh, that loading some Linux flavor would be the best bet. Its user-friendly enough that loading new programs and games is trivial (therefore not frustrating), but still allows the user exposure to the more inner workings of an OS, via the shell, if one so chooses.

Re:Huh?

[Jethro]

Hah! Thanks, I needed that. (:

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

OS/2 FTW!!

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

In my day we would have killed to have something as exciting as a screwdriver to play with ...

Re:Huh?

[skiman1979]

How the hell are you going to start a flamewar on /. by saying "put Linux on it"? Unless the BSD guys start something, you'll hear nothing but agreement.

Or the Amiga people...

Re:Huh?

[Smauler]

I'm not quite sure how one would educate a child on how the various parts of a computer works, even in the most basic sense.

At least 90% of adults do not know how the various parts of a computer work. The concepts are not that difficult - I mean, the differentiation between RAM and HD storage is horrendously simple, yet loads of people still fuck it up. Children don't need an analogy necessarily, they just need to know how it works. RAM is quick, and loses everything all the time, including power off - HD is slow and retains (almost) everything. As long as you teach them how it works, they can grow up with knowing the basic things, and be well ahead of most.

Re:Huh?

[tehcyder]

If anything give him a screw driver and let him take it apart tell him what all the parts do and possibly even get it back together.

Yeah, and if you're anything like I was at four you'll probably end up turning it into a time machine. Because we're all geek geniuses here, right/

Re:Huh?

[tehcyder]

I'm not quite sure how one would educate a child on how the various parts of a computer works, even in the most basic sense. What kind of analogy might work on a child? The simplest one I can think of compares a computer to a kitchen, and I'm not sure even that's simple enough for a four year old.

Car analogies, every time. They are universally understood, irrespective of age or culture. The CPUs the engine, the power cable is petrol and the hard drive is the boot where you put suitcases. Even a four year old should be able to grasp that.

Re:Huh?

[tehcyder]

Don't be an enabler of mediocrity

Throwing a ball is far more mediocre than learning how computers work.

If you can't throw a ball you are below mediocre, however good at computers you get.

Re:Huh?

[tehcyder]

at the risk of starting a flame war, the first thing that I would do is wipe the thing and put some flavor of Linux on it.

You appear to have misspelled "Windows".

Re:Huh?

[tehcyder]

ignoring the unnecessary politics in your post,

What you mean is "ignoring the politics that I disagree with..." The original poster's anti-Microsoft pro-Open Source statement is political in itself, just because you happen to agree with it doesn't make it apolitical.

Re:Huh?

[tehcyder]

Hate those round, static objects all you want, but the fact is many, many, MANY people have started successful careers in business and politics because those balls enabled them to attend good schools. Sitting in front of a computer might make you smarter, but success and smarts don't always go hand in hand...

I think that's a fairly American thing, in most countries sports scholarships are few and far between, on the basis that there is no need to go to university to be good at sports...

Re:Huh?

[tehcyder]

Your statement is the equivalent of saying he should not have books at age 4. There is nothing wrong with allowing a 4 year old to browse the greatest library ever.

That would be true if kids spent much (or any) of there time on the internet reading.

Re:Huh?

[tehcyder]

Why in God's name wouldnt you give him easy access to the greatest repository of knowledge ever?

Yeah, but hidden among the LOLcats, 2 girls 1 cup, YouTube videos of teenagers pissing on tramps, KKK hate-drivel and the Time Cube guy. It's a confusing place for a 4 year old to get lost in.

Re:Huh?

[tehcyder]

my son is 4 now, and even though he hacked his first macbook 250 (or was it 260..) duo at the age of two

You need to try harder, I'm fairly sure someone above had a one year old who could program in BASIC.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

My daughter got a netbook when she was five; not my idea as I was against it but her mom bought it for her for Christmas anyways.

Its actually been great. It has really encouraged her to read; there are a couple of really good kids books sites and then her school pays for accounts on a scholastic site and one other aimed at early reading. We've also used it as an mp3 player and movie player on some of the longer trips (e.g. driving 8 hours to see my grandfather before he passed). Primarily though, its just sparked her curiosity again. For example, there was an astronomy program on her netbook so she started asking questions about space. For awhile her school really killed her curiosity, and for some reason the netbook got that spark back while my attempts failed.

As she's now 9, I'm trying to convince her to start blogging on a private blog that only her family has access too; of course that's primarily in response to the fact that she's living with me 3 hours away from both sets of grand parents (whom she's lived with at different times as her mom and I were 18 when she was born), her aunt's, cousins, and 3.5 hours from her mother. Partially I'm trying to cut down on texting, partially they're working on storytelling in school and I figured this would be a good way to encourage her to do extra practice, and partially I'm just trying to help her stay close while still being safe (I really don't want her on social networking sites yet)

Re:Huh?

[RancidPeanutOil]

"Hey kid, why aren't you working at a fancy workstation like the rest of us? Dontcha know anything about computers?"

"Nah, I mean, I can download stuff - and my grampa taught me how to use facebook, even though that site isn't around anymore; and Of Course I can check email."

But can you, ya know, do any coding? What languages do you know? How about even, I dunno, html? I mean, sure, they never taught us that in school, what with the budgetary issues and shortsightedness of the early 21st century, but still, as long as you had a computer, you could pick it up if you were halfway smart - and you seem like a smart guy. What's the story?"

I... I didn't get my own computer until I was 15, because my Dad said that was how old he was when he got his. He... he never realized that things had changed, computer literacy had changed, hairstyles had changed. But, I mean, I can throw a baseball halfway good... ya know... if you wanna play catch or something..."

Sorry, kid... we're gonna have to send you to the soylent green harvest planet, if you know what I mean..."

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

See, I always just stick to the old tried-and-true, like my old man did me - 1-4, locked in the closet, 5-10, school during the day, attic at night, and dressing up like a beautiful porcelain doll with magical friends...

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

My kid's had a computer since around 4, running Mandriva.....and now PCLOS with the educational & kid components installed....gcompris, tux math, tuxpaint, etc.

Now at 7 he uses it for homework: required 1 hour per week on it, learning to type, some research, etc.

As long as you keep an eye on them and limit the time and set priorities, all is fine.

Re:Huh?

[pclminion]

If anything give him a screwdriver and let him take it apart tell him what all the parts do and possibly even get it back together.

Putting it back together would not be possible. My dad worked for Cadwell Labs and he came home once with a broken EEG machine. The entire thing. It probably cost $100k brand new. Anyway, I was encouraged to disassemble it. I did this primarily with a hammer, but occasionally I employed a screwdriver to pry the surface mount components off the various daughter boards. The only part of the machine that my dad didn't let me play with was the CRT, since he knew the first thing I'd do is smash it with the hammer, and end up slashing myself on broken glass.

That was when I was 9 or so. I can only imagine what tactics I would have used had I been 4.

I seriously don't know how I'm going to raise my own kid without ending up in prison. I took an old toaster once and cut the cord off it, stripped the ends, plugged it in and stuck it into a drinking glass full of salt water. Hydrogen, oxygen, and chlorine spewed out (I had just read about electrolysis in the encyclopedia). As I withdrew the leads from the salt water, they arced, which of course ignited the gas mixture with a big enough POP to shatter the upper part of the drinking glass, while simultaneously tripping the circuit breaker. When mom got home she was mad that I'd gotten the floor wet.

When I wasn't busy with that, I was doing other things like burning elemental sulfur in a tablespoon in the middle of the kitchen, boiling onions in water then pouring the water into Mason jars and tucking them under the sink to see what sort of organisms would or would not grow on it, and connecting rabbit-ear antennas to 12-volt lantern batteries then clamping my head between them (turns out 12V isn't enough to shock you, but I was trying to).

I can hardly believe that these days I just sit at a desk and write code.

Obvious?

[Anonymous Coward]

An undelete utility.

Re:Obvious?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obvious: a link to 4chan's /b/

Zoodles

[ds_online]

my kids ( 5 and 3 ) love using zoodles, its a web browser for kids that gives them age appropriate content, I set my kids up with an older computer that was just laying around and stuck ubuntu on it. they use it for a couple hours a day and my son is the top reader in his kindergarten class.

Re:Zoodles

[eharvill]

Wow, thank you for this. I've tried looking for some kid friendly computer programs without too much luck. This looks like it will fit the bill perfectly for my 4.5 year old.

Re:Zoodles

[Anonymous Coward]

You're kid may be a top reader, but my kindergarten kid has a girlfriend and gets laid on a regular basis.

Re:Zoodles

[pinkushun]

With it's low operating requirements, Ubuntu runs well on my Netbook :-)

You can feel safer too, knowing its not as susceptible to the myriad of malware emails and sites out there.

Start with a good hosts file

[jwthompson2]

Whether you keep him using Windows or load up a flavor of Linux I'd put a good hosts file on there to block adware and other known sources of crapware. Beyond that, you could setup something like Dans Guardian or set the machine to use filtered DNS services, such as OpenDNS. If you are gonna keep Windows on there then there are tons of commercial filtering products out there, all the stuff I mentioned is free.

Re:Start with a good hosts file

[cantbeatL337]

the local host file can be edited to prevent him from going to any website.

Re:Start with a good hosts file

[jwthompson2]

Unless you are going to do a whitelist approach I would use the hosts file to address adware/crapware issues and then use a content filter to address porn/mature content. If you want to go the whitelist route I'd use OpenDNS or DansGuardian since they both have that capability and then you don't need to worry about the hosts file.

Re:Start with a good hosts file

[Distan]

+1

Re:Start with a good hosts file

[hedwards]

Or you could solve the problem more or less completely by removing the network card and not having to worry about that at all. Of course if something happens anyway, I recommend running to the nearest Catholic Church and seeking a young priest and an old priest post haste.

At that age, there's little in my view to be gained by giving a kid access to the internet and quite a bit to lose. Loading on a small number of appropriate games is going to be more than enough to get the kid interested in computers in the future.

Re:Start with a good hosts file

[anyGould]

At that age, there's little in my view to be gained by giving a kid access to the internet and quite a bit to lose.

Other than losing access to some of the age-appropriate websites out there. Fisher Price ain't bad. Sesame Street is better. There's a whole "MMO" based around Pocoyo (you can make faces, but no chat, so no worries about people being idiots).

I think we need to accept that the "techie gene" is going to be more prevalent in the future, simply because a young child is exposed to buttons at an earlier age. Buttons on the phone, buttons on the TV. What's mom and dad going? Pushing buttons on the computer.

Personally, I'm trying to decide when a good age to start doing the hardware-techy projects with her is.

Four letter word for a four year old kid

[multipartmixed]

LOGO

If he really has the techie gene, he will seriously best his sister's crappy pen-and-paper Spirograph!

Re:Four letter word for a four year old kid

[Anonymous Coward]

(give the sister a chance to play with LOGO too, it got me into CS)

--Christine

Re:Four letter word for a four year old kid

[MacGyver2210]

I didn't really start with LOGO until I was about 6. I think 4 might still be a bit early for text programming.

Perhaps you could rig up Code Blocks in some way they'd understand? Good together time too.

Re:Four letter word for a four year old kid

[Darinbob]

Lisp. With assembler when he turns 5. And with emacs that covers everything you'd need.

Re:Four letter word for a four year old kid

[vagabond_gr]

LEGO

There, fixed that for ya.

Re:Four letter word for a four year old kid

[Anonymous Coward]

LEGO

Fixed that for you

Re:Four letter word for a four year old kid

[janerules]

WOW! I'm 28 now and I have wondered what that program was called for so long! That was my first computer experience and it was GREAT! Thank you!

Re:Four letter word for a four year old kid

[skiman1979]

LOGO is how I got started on computers when I was about 3 years old. My father showed me how you can enter commands to make that turtle do fun things. I was hooked. I got distracted by video games (and outdoor playing) for a bit, but started doing my own programming in BASIC by 4th grade.

Re:Four letter word for a four year old kid

[Anonymous Coward]

In case you're actually planning on doing this: LOGO's hard to find and install, but Python isn't. Open up an interactive shell and try 'from turtle import *'. Commands like 'forward(100)', 'color("red")', and 'left(90)' are a great place to start, as is 'help(turtle)'

There's also KTurtle, if you like GUIs.

Internet access ~= public access; Creativity

[gehrehmee]

If you're considering giving him internet access, consider what it means. It means the ability to interact with random strangers on the internet. I don't mean to over-exaggerate the risk of this, but it's something you would never consider doing in-person unattended.

If he has internet access at all, make sure it's supervised.

Make sure there's some form of security/anti-virus. Other than that, let him run wild, and see what he comes up with, as opposed to what you'd give him :)

A way to turn it off and go outside to play.

[Greg Merchan]

A way to turn it off and go outside to play.

Re:A way to turn it off and go outside to play.

[icebraining]

Especially if it's dark, raining and 30F outside.

Re:A way to turn it off and go outside to play.

[Greg Merchan]

Yes. Especially then. It builds character.

Re:A way to turn it off and go outside to play.

[icebraining]

"Yeah, and last year you said diarrhea builds character."

Re:A way to turn it off and go outside to play.

[anyGould]

A way to turn it off and go outside to play.

As long as you're happy being outside as well. ;)

Also, your kids want to do what you do. My wife and I are both tech-oriented bookworms and gaming geeks. There is zero shock in the family that our kid reads way above her level and found how to search for Dora on Google by herself. (Which lead to a rousing game of "distract the kid while we find the Real Dora site and not the questionable parodies" *g*). She still finds time to run around, play with toys, and generally be a kid.

Re:A way to turn it off and go outside to play.

[plover]

"Yeah, and last year you said diarrhea builds character."

He was just shitting you.

Re:A way to turn it off and go outside to play.

[icebraining]

Yes, I know, or I would have replying seriously instead of making a Calvin & Hobbes reference.

Mac OSX

[RedLeg]

Do him a favor, load him up a copy of OSX (DO go buy a copy, $30) using Netbookinstaller.

Much less viral crap to worry about, and you're starting a youngster out on UNIX under the hood.

Red

Re:Mac OSX

[Haedrian]

You could just as easily load up Linux instead for a copy costing $0.

If your kid is visiting websites which could give him viruses, then you really need to keep an eye on him.

Re:Mac OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

Only problem is that I've never used a Hackintosh netbook that was worth the trouble. Maybe if it was a more stock laptop it could be worth it, but I'd just load up Ubuntu or Sugar. I setup a Dell Mini with OS X and it didn't do anything for my daughter, who is 6, that couldn't have been done just as well with Ubuntu. Ultimately she preferred her iPad anyways because it was much more tactile and that is what she likes, the feel of direct manipulation.

Re:Mac OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

Why bother buying a copy of OSX? It's never going to be legit on your system, and you'll always be a "pirate." Because it's only $30? That's an upgrade, technically. Your token minimal gesture means nothing to a legal team, if caught.

Re:Mac OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

"websites which could give him viruses" means "anything that displays banner ads" these days. The black-hats compromise

Re:Mac OSX

[Bert64]

Most malware these days doesn't come from questionable websites, it comes from otherwise perfectly legitimate websites which have been hacked (or are including content from third parties, eg ads, which have been hacked).

Re:Mac OSX

[doomday]

If your kid is visiting websites which could give him viruses, then you really need to keep an eye on him.

I didn't turn on the internet filter once when I let my little cousin do some browsing, and he ended up with the flu for a week.

Re:Mac OSX

[tehcyder]

Most malware these days doesn't come from questionable websites, it comes from otherwise perfectly legitimate websites which have been hacked (or are including content from third parties, eg ads, which have been hacked).

Yep, that's what my kids always say, too.

Load....

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux!

bash prompt and vi.

[Anonymous Coward]

If he's 4, and can get to stuff he shouldn't see with just those tools, he's a damn genius and you won't be able to stop him anyway :).

I would put Sugar on it

[Anonymous Coward]

They use in on the OLPC and it has a bunch of simple games and stuff. You could delete the browser if you don't want him on the internet. I think there are versions for XP as well as Linux.

No device at all.

[Anonymous Coward]

A bouncy ball and Lego. Real books and time with people. If I were your sibling, I would tell you that your intent is good, road to Hell, etc.

Don't blacklist...

[Haedrian]

If you're really going to give a young kid a netbook... with an internet connection then block ALL websites and connections, except ones which you trust them seeing. Or don't give them internet access at all. I wouldn't, not at that age.

When I was 4 I used to love playing around with a computer, I didn't have educational games or anything, I just to just play lemmings, or mess around with a word processor or something. Try to let the kid get used to using a computer at a young age for normal tasks.

If you really feel adventurous, give him a Pascal IDE or something.

Re:Don't blacklist...

[cdhooper]

I tried to do this for a single web site, but eventually gave up due to the unexpected dependency of that web (pbskids.org) site on, no kidding, at least 15 other sites. I gave up trying to locate the names of and add them all to the iptables filter rule I had built.

Left with two choices (no access or full access), I decided to open up access to everything. I have two kids, ages 6 and 2. My six year old has visited a few web sites she's seen on TV (mostly Disney). My son invariably will end up on youtube watching various A-B-C songs. They are both pretty indifferent to whatever OS is on the computer.

I installed Linux on an old computer we had (first a laptop from 2001 and later migrated them to a desktop from 2002). The computer is fast enough (just barely) to watch videos. It's still plenty fast for all the educational programs that come free with Linux. GCompris, Childsplay, and Tux Typing are all pretty good. Each has several activities for different age and skill levels in one program.

My two year old knows how to write the entire alphabet, uppercase and lowercase. He knows all his single digit numbers and is rapidly knocking down being able to say and write double digit numbers. He can sign the entire alphabet, and knows how to sign for several different food items (banana, carrot, etc). I'm a bit ashamed to admit that neither my wife nor I taught him any of this. Most of the aforementioned he learned on his own, thanks mostly to the computer, PBS Kids, and Signing Time.

Growing up in the 70's, we didn't have access to computers, or the kind of quality TV programming which is available now. It's probably true that I got a lot more outdoor exercise than my kids get. It's probably also true that I did more sitting outside in the sand or staring at mindless cartoons on the TV than they do.

I personally believe that children will gravitate toward whatever activities suit them. It's the responsibility of the parent (not the teacher, not the baby sitter, and not the older sibling) to recognize and encourage the "good" activities.

Re:Don't blacklist...

[tehcyder]

I have two kids, ages 6 and 2. My six year old has visited a few web sites she's seen on TV (mostly Disney). My son invariably will end up on youtube watching various A-B-C songs. They are both pretty indifferent to whatever OS is on the computer.

Blasphemy!

Flash

[farnsworth]

Between PBS Kids, Club Penguin, et al, there is really no need to install or buy anything except for Flash. By the time he outgrows these games, it will be years down the road and he'll be able to figure out what to do next.

Say what you will about Flash, but there is a lot of pretty good content for kids out there.

Re:Flash

[WilsonSD]

You haven't tried this have you? I did. My 8 year old wanted a little netbook just for this kind of stuff (PBS Kids, Nick Jr and Webkins). The flash user interfaces for these things were beyond useless on the tiny netbook screens. Anything below 1024x768 isn't in the design center for these little cames and it basically doesn't work. Try it in the store before you buy if you're considering this.

I agree there is lots of good content, but much of it won't actually work on a low-end netbook -- and flash doesn't scale down to even try.

Re:Flash

[Sepodati]

Exactly what I was going to say. I've got kids 3 - 10 and they play on flash based sites 90% of the time. Noggin, Nick JR, Spout, PBS Kids for the younger one, Club Penguin, Cartoon Network and whatever else they find for the older ones.

I chose a bunch of games Linux offers and added them to a dock program for the other 10%. My netbook has that Dell interface that makes it easy for the 3 year old to choose games, too. She likes the penguin racer game a lot.

I don't worry about a filter, either. The 3 year old isn't going to accidentally end up on chatroulette when she starts on one of the above sites. They're all supervised and only use the computers in public areas of the house. When the oldest gets curious, well, boobies aren't going to kill him.

Re:Flash

[Sepodati]

I've got a Dell Mini 10 at 1024x600 and the kids play flash games on it all the time. I've heard them say that things are faster on my other regular IBM laptop, but they play on regardless. :) At times, the two boys get on each computer and go on Club Penguin together to battle or whatever.

Re:Flash

[Anonymous Coward]

We used to buy all types of games from the discount bins at Staples/Max/Depot for my kids to play. We haven't even looked at them for the last several years. Everything they've done has been online as "Flash" mentioned. All they need is a good browser and the necessary plug-ins.

Edubuntu

[guytoronto]

http://edubuntu.org/

Re:Edubuntu

[aliquis]

Which is the reason I wrote something fun, instead of learning applications, which may work to.

But seriously, does it _HAVE TO_ be learning?

What you had thought learning games where fun as a kid (some and sometimes probably, always?)

If it's fun chances are it will be used more, if it used more chances are you'll learn something in the process. But sure, if he want to learn something / use some application for learning let him (or she ..)

Everything doesn't have to have a good purpose. Grown ups like to do things they actually enjoy sometimes to.

Re:Edubuntu

[Deathlizard]

yes second that just to knock down the malware footprint.

If you do want to use Windows XP however, make him a user account to minimize malware damage and look into windows SteadyState (witch is at EOL but still available at MS until the end of this year) or DeepFreeze to lock down the system. That way if he gets an infection you just shut the system down and it's gone.

I use Edubuntu

[bleys2112]

My kids use Edubuntu with a limited user account and the Kidzui add-on for Firefox... They love it! I actually installed Edubuntu on top of vanilla Ubuntu, for some reason it seemed to work better that way. At some point, I am going to install an ipcop server to control the traffic a little better, but I am in no hurry.

Install a lock on the Netbook

[parallel_prankster]

4 year old kids should be outside playing, spending time with friends. He can unlock the laptop when he is 8-10!

Re:Install a lock on the Netbook

[icebraining]

Because it's physically impossible to do both in the same day or week.

Seriously, have you never watched TV when you were a kid? And did that screwed you or prevented you from playing outside with friends? Then why is replacing that couple of hours per week of passive TV with an active and interactive device that wrong?

Re:Install a lock on the Netbook

[Macrat]

4 year old kids should be outside playing,

Easier access for pedophiles.

It was easier in the old days. Today there are terrorists hiding under every rock.

Re:Install a lock on the Netbook

[tehcyder]

4 year old kids should be outside playing,

Easier access for pedophiles.

Most pedophiles are encountered in a child''s own home and they are not strangers.

vi and gcc

[Anonymous Coward]

If he wants apps, let him learn to write them himself.

World of Warcraft

[AK Marc]

My 4 year old loves to get on WoW and kill things. I set up some toolbars and show him what numbers to press or buttons to press and he's off and away. Though I had to make him his own character because he has a habit of drowning my characters, and I didn't like the repair bills. He's up to lvl 20 almost completely by himself.

Load up what he sees you play with, whether word processors, or games, or the Internet. Give him some shortcuts to get to the things you think will interest him. And let him go. He'll tell you when he wants something different and if he's having trouble with something. Oh, and for age appropriate things, he also likes Fisher-Price's Cool School.

Re:World of Warcraft

[Anonymous Coward]

load up gatherhud and routes and set them up to farm ore/herbs etc....follow the arrow click the plant kill things near by rinse repeat...

Re:World of Warcraft

[Negathle]

WoW on an Acer netbook... oof, that'd be rough.

Re:World of Warcraft

[AK Marc]

He hates gathering. I "pick a flower" for him and he tells me to go to the other room and let him play. He just wants to kill.

Re:World of Warcraft

[Negathle]

It's not child labor if he's not being paid, right?

Re:World of Warcraft

[IhateMonkeys]

This is not going to end well.
I suspect that we will be seeing your son on the news in about 10 years. Probably along with the words murder and psychotic.

Re:World of Warcraft

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree : I always considered wow as a game designed for retarded. Here's the proof.

Re:World of Warcraft

[Anonymous Coward]

WoW - So simple even a caveman... erm... 4 year old can do it.

Re:World of Warcraft

[Anonymous Coward]

It's good to start with effective contraceptive usage even as a young child. Hats off to you.

Re:World of Warcraft

[Gofyerself]

I put the Anarchists Cookbook, the Dangerous Book for Boys and FM-100 US Army Manual on Improvised Explosive Devices in PDF on my four year old's laptop.

Re:World of Warcraft

[NuKe_MoNgOoSe]

To each their own obviously, but i find a 4 yr old on WoW ridiculous, be like me letting my daughter play COD with me. We can argue the differences all day long but they are both violent and in the case of WOW, personally, ive seen friends lives ruined by the game. It was there choice to let the game interfere with their relationships granted but the idea that any game would have that sort of pull on a person is extremely disturbing, and giving it to a 4 yr old might as well be allowing your 4 yr old to smoke a joint with dad.

Well

[Anonymous Coward]

learn him ascii art :)

How about the OLPC/Sugar system?

[pearl298]

One Laptop per child has emulators for regular PCs and their software is ideally suited to a small child: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Software_components They even have a "live boot" based on Fedora Linux

Re:How about the OLPC/Sugar system?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about this article..."Top 5 Linux Distribution for Children (Ages 2 and Up)"

Read more: http://www.brighthub.com/computing/linux/articles/43224.aspx#ixzz16d0ONy3x"

http://www.brighthub.com/computing/linux/articles/43224.aspx

Re:How about the OLPC/Sugar system?

[OpenRebel]

The environment proven effect as a Platform for children's own directed learning.

Two the most effective ways to install and use at the moment include:
A USB boot image: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick
or Installing it as one of the Desktops as part of a Fedora Installation, Available During package Selection.

Re:How about the OLPC/Sugar system?

[kartiksinghal]

Sugar is definitely the way to go for any beginners to computers, especially children.

Personally

[frozentier]

Any child under 10 using any internet capable device should have eyes-on supervision while using it, all the time.

Re:Personally

[monkyyy]

thats a bit limiting 10 is a little to high, but i think having a black list filter as the main filter and a white list one that records any questionable ones would be ok for 10 ish and a plain white list should be ok for 4-5

Re:Personally

[Macrat]

Any child under 10 using any internet capable device should have eyes-on supervision while using it, all the time.

So you are saying it would have a web cam?

Re:Personally

[Sepodati]

Sure, that's always a good idea, but let's be realistic here. A kid under 10 that starts off with PBS Kids or Sprout or Cartoon Network as their start page is not going to end up anywhere bad. They can't accidentally end up on chatroulette from one of those sites. They're not typing "free porn" into the search box.

I keep an eye on my kids (3, 7 and 10) and the worse the end up on are some stupid YouTube Charlie the unicorn videos with some language.

Re:Personally

[JasterBobaMereel]

The internet even filtered and firewalled to the max is like the empty lot around the block - anyone could be there, anything could happen

When you trust your kid to go there unsupervised in the knowledge that they will avoid trouble and know what to do if anything bad happens then and only then give them unsupervised internet access ....

Supervision does not mean trusting filters and blockers, it means knowing when you kid is responsible enough to not need them ....

Re:Personally

[tehcyder]

Anyone, child or otherwise, who has unfettered internet access could end up absolutely anywhere on the internet.. You are putting forward a version of security through obscurity, and we all know how well that works.

My 4 yr old loves...

[kachakaach]

Tuxpaint (open source, free)

I also think I would turn it into a hackintosh with a copy of OS X.

Limits

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows Live Family Safety
Scratch [scratch.mit.edu]

Definetly...TIME LIMITS!

Minecraft

[The MAZZTer]

Minecraft

Re:Minecraft

[Wizarth]

I was going to post this. My daughter (6) loves nothing more then to play Minecraft with me - which means telling me what to do constantly. Her favorite activity seems to be kiting creepers.

She hasn't got the coordination/experience to manage to play herself - she much prefers to tell me what to do. It must be a girl thing.

Re:Minecraft

[zdepthcharge]

Yes! Just this week end my four year old got bored with "Up To Ten" (kids website) and decided to load up Minecraft. He managed to destroy my undefloor lava lighting and yelled out, "Dad I'm on fire!". After I respawned him he (accidently) built a semi-functional mob trap (ahe dug himself into a big pit and monsters jumped on him). He loved it!

Re:Minecraft

[pnuema]

My four year old played with me all weekend. I've got a quarry started, digging top down. He insists on holding down the mouse as I dig down.

Re:Minecraft

[Anonymous Coward]

Your four year old should be doing something different than spending an entire weekend playing Minecraft. He should be building things with Lego or jumping into a large pile of leaves.

Tuxpaint..

[blahplusplus]

http://www.tuxpaint.org/

Re:Tuxpaint..

[PhilHibbs]

Agreed, my nieces were using TuxPaint when they were 3.

Absurd

[amightywind]

Why you should put a Lisp system on it so he can learn to program neural networks. Have you thought about giving him some crayons instead?

Re:Absurd

[Sepodati]

Crayons? Now that's stupid. Do you know how hard it is to get crayon off the computer screen?

Re:Absurd

[anyGould]

Crayons? Now that's stupid. Do you know how hard it is to get crayon off the computer screen?

The "ha ha" factor aside, there are advantages to having your kid's coloring being on a machine that not only has "undo" buttons for them, but can't accidentally doodle on your walls.

Re:Absurd

[Sepodati]

Yep. 3 year old is loving Tux Paint right now. Just loaded up Edubuntu and Qimo and made it easy for her to find programs. She's happy. :)

Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to agree.

...

It keeps him occupied for hours at a stretch. It really frees me up to go shopping and other things that would have been tough with him along.

I sincerely hope you're fucking joking.

Re:Hmm

[BadAnalogyGuy]

You ever try to take a 4 year old grocery shopping?

If it isn't the screaming that attracts the looky lous, it's the disciplinary action I sometimes have to take.

It may not be optimal, but nothing in life ever is, you know?

Re:Hmm

[ds_online]

Yes I take my 5 year old and my 3 year old shopping weekly, there is no screaming, there is no disciplinary action. if you can't handle raising children who listen to you, maybe you shouldn't have had them in the first place. Leaving a 5 year old at home is child abuse. and most state agencys would agree.

Re:Hmm

[froggymana]

Have you ever left a 4 year old on his/her own for an extended period of time? If so I would appreciate having your phone number and address so I can call social services on you.

Re:Hmm

[lacqui]

You ever try defending yourself from a child abandonment charge? A 4-year-old is nowhere NEAR responsible enough to look after themselves. Where I live, leaving ANYBODY with a single-digit age is asking for an investigation. No matter how mature or responsible you think that child is.

Re:Hmm

[BadAnalogyGuy]

if you can't handle raising children who listen to you, maybe you shouldn't have had them in the first place.

Well, it's a little too late for that, don't you think?

Re:Hmm

[BadAnalogyGuy]

That's insane. What police state do you live in?

Re:Hmm

[ds_online]

actually its never to late to put children who are being abused by their parents into protective custody. why don't you give me your contact information so I can pass it on to the right agency.

Re:Hmm

[BadAnalogyGuy]

I'd love for you to try it.

Number One Observatory Circle
3450 Massachusetts Ave.
Washington, DC 20007

202-762-1489

Ask for Joe.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Check his nickname.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I think we are losing sight of the fact that this is Bad Analogy Guy. I doubt CPS is going to get a hot tip out of this exchange.

Better luck next time BAG.

Re:Hmm

[Amorymeltzer]

A number of US states have child abandonment laws allowing you safe haven for giving children up to the state up to certain ages (4, 7, etc.) with the state, but they are there, horrible as they are, to reinforce the pinnacle of irresponsibility it is to leave a child of that age (8/9) alone. It's not a police state, it's enforcing the care and treatment of individuals without the capacity to do it for themselves. Shit man, minors have guardians for a reason.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

He might be, but I'm not. Yea. We've had an incident or two where other parents, teachers, and consolers have been upset with me. These things should not be hidden until an "appropriate age". It isn't my fault that everybody else's parents shield there kids from the world. I won't shield mine. And there isn't a law that says I have to. If they don't want to have them around my kid. Fine. There is nothing wrong with my kid. He is well adjusted and generally understands what is and is not appropriate in different contexts. Now. Other peoples kids are in my opinion completely and utterly ignorant about the world. OK that isn't entirely true either. Most kids are more aware of the world than people think. Parents just won't admit it. Reality is you can't shield your kid from anything today. I'm not bringing up the "facts of life" nor hiding them. It is what it is. And parents should let kids learn and discover the world as it comes, ask questions, and not feel ashamed of it. Watch the movies you want, give your kid access to the internet, and let them live. It doesn't bite. The streets are more dangerous than information. I guess the way we live today though most parents won't even let kids do that though either (play outside).

Re:Hmm

[monkyyy]

they start giving kids meds with depression as a likely side effect before they hit double digits sorry but the government doesn't care about the next generation one bit.

kids grow up quicker and quicker, sooner or latter most parents are going to be like this

Re:Hmm

[MokuMokuRyoushi]

I sincerely believe he is. But things have gotten so bad, it might be worth the question.

Re:Hmm

[froggymana]

The line has been busy,but I will keep trying!

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

It's never too late to give the lil' bastards up for adoption.

  That'll teach 'em to cut into my leisure time. Damn things want toys, and clothes, food, attention; and they're so damn needy and co-dependent. Who needs all that baggage?

Sincerely,

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

You're seriously claiming it's responsible to leave a 4 year old on their own for hours (potentially - what if the car breaks down)?

Re:Hmm

[tomhudson]

I doubt Joe Biden is leaving a 4-year-old alone at home at the official residence. But report him if you want to ... you never know, right?

Let us know what the weather is like at Gitmo this time of year :-)

Re:Hmm

[pspahn]

Leaving a 5 year old at home is child abuse. and most state agencys would agree.

Which really is too bad and is further proof The Idiots are Taking Over. I wonder what the state would say if the child was exceptionally well raised otherwise and had a vastly superior ability to think for him/herself since they have been given more to explore life for themselves.

Sure, while it probably isn't okay for people with average or less-than average children to leave them alone, for the people who have really great kids, there is nothing wrong with this.

Re:Hmm

[pspahn]

While young, the kid is still AT HOME! If there is anywhere you should be able to leave your child unattended, it is there.

Re:Hmm

[markass530]

i sincerely hope your fucking joking about not being sure that the guy was obviously fucking joking...

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, that's a fax number.

Re:Hmm

[wvmarle]

I've been taking my kid (now also 4) along for shopping all the time. No problem, especially grocery shopping is fine actually, walking shop to shop, buying this here, that there, lots to see, very interesting.

There are worse things for a child than grocery shopping, like yesterday when we went out to buy tea. We've been sitting in that shop for 1 1/2 hours talking and tasting various teas before leaving with a nice set. That was planned, so the kid was with his grandparents to the beach. And we all enjoyed ourselves.

The cause of misbehaviour with children lies with the parents at least as much if not more than with the children themselves, so you should really look at your parenting if your child can't even behave himself during a supermarket visit. Maybe you should consider taking him to the playground more, instead of parking him at home in front of a computer. Getting rid of all that surplus energy makes them behave much better afterwards.

But as long as you take only your own needs into account behaviour problems are bound to happen.

Re:Hmm

[lacqui]

"Unattended" is one thing. I don't watch my kids like a hawk 24 hours a day. But there's no way in Hell my kids will be home by themselves when I'm at the supermarket. Not until my oldest is 10, and has passed a "Home Alone" class offered by our local community center.

Re:Hmm

[geezer nerd]

Yes, leaving a 5 year-old child at home alone is a criminal offence just about everywhere, I think. If you get caught, you are in for some serious jail time -- and losing your child to boot. And this has nothing to do with computers.

Re:Hmm

[geezer nerd]

And as to the question posed by the OP, I am somewhat aghast at the idea of giving a 4-year old his own computer, particularly if it is attached to the internet. And if it is a portable, it will be soon reduced to rubble.

A child that young who can navigate the web on his own would be rare, I think. My stepdaughter gave her old Mac to her 4 year-old with some simple colorful and flashy games for him, but no attachment to the internet, and most of the time no keyboard. He loved it!

At that age, most children will enjoy watching the same video over and over again, and seldom pay much attention. Same for the computer.

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

Your right. It isn't child abuse for them to be outside by themselves, so everyone should remember that if they want to make a quick run down to the corner store, they should lock the kid outside. It will keep the parent out of trouble.

Seriously, just a generation ago, it was simply no big deal for a 5 year old to spend a short amount of time alone. By 10 or 11, they could spend the night alone, and by 12 or 13, they were babysitting other kids for the weekend. I don't know what kind of mass genetic disease has spread through the populations, but for those kids whose genetic code is still in tact, leaving a 5 year old at home is NOT child abuse. No matter what most state agencies say.

Re:Hmm

[demonlapin]

That's a fair claim against a four year old, but a mature eight or nine year old is perfectly capable of taking care of themselves for a couple of hours at a time, if not a day. By that age - third grade - I was walking home from school by myself (a little over a mile) on nice days. The next year, I started riding my bicycle to school with two other neighbors that were a year younger than me. A child that knows a few basic rules is fine: don't open the door to anyone, don't answer the phone, and don't cook except in the microwave. Call your parents if anything happens.

By the time I was twelve, I was in charge of the house for the day during the summer while my mom was at work - I had to stay home and babysit my six-year-old sister. And make her lunch for her. It was no big deal.

Re:Hmm

[samoanbiscuit]

I think someone's imagination was captured by the "Home Alone" movies... The fact is that children that young lack the emotional as well as intellectual capacity to stay alone and stay safe. If you don't have the foresight or imagination to conceive of things that could befall even an exceptionally intelligent, responsible five year old, you're not ready to have kids.

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

You seem to only be familiar with retarded children. I gave my son his first computer a couple of weeks after his first birthday. 5 minutes showing him how the mouse and keyboard work and loading gCompris for him, and a couple of hours later showing him how to properly shut down the machine, and how to load gCompris himself, and he was off and running. By the end of the first day, he was perfectly competent at using the computer for the applications he wanted to run. On his second birthday, I formatted his hard drive and gave him a copy of Ubuntu on CD. He had no problem installing it. No, he couldn't read, but it didn't take a 3 year old to figure out which button was the "Next" button.

By the time he was three, he had started looking up what he wanted on the internet. So, while you are aghast at the idea of giving a 4-year old his own computer, I am aghast that you wouldn't expect children to be raised well enough not to destroy things by the age of 4, and aghast that the level of retardation that you seem to think is normal. If I am wrong about what is normal for a 4 year old, and you are right, then I will have to severely lower my view of humanity.

Re:Hmm

[samoanbiscuit]

Seriously, just a generation ago, it was simply no big deal for a 5 year old to spend a short amount of time alone. By 10 or 11, they could spend the night alone, and by 12 or 13, they were babysitting other kids for the weekend. I don't know what kind of mass genetic disease has spread through the populations

The mass genetic disease is called the news... People have now read (and watched) cases where things that were vanishingly unlikely to happen to kids playing in the neighborhood, or alone at home, happened to them... Should it be illegal to leave your five year old alone for a SHORT time? No. Is it a smart move on the parent's part? NO. The fact is that it's unlikely that anything untoward would happen to the child, but if something did, one wouldn't want to be the parent who had that happen to them...

Re:Hmm

[Schadrach]

Pinnacle of irresponsibility to leave a 9 year old unsupervised for any length of time? Wow. I'd give it to you when we were talking about 4 year olds, but 9? I, and basically everyone I know, was able to spend some amount of time unsupervised by the age of 9. Hell, just a couple years older than that and we're talking about overnight or maybe even for a weekend.

By 9 we could generally feed and bathe ourselves, knew who to call in emergencies, and were generally responsible enough to not burn the house down.

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

An 8 or 9 year old that cannot spend the night alone is simply retarded. I recognize that we have codified in law that all citizens must now be retarded, but the only irresponsible thing about leaving an non-retarded 8 or 9 year old alone is that men with guns will come and victimize them. The men with guns will just happen to also have badges.

It is a police state when parents are not able to teach their children responsibility by giving them time to care for themselves in appropriate doses. What is the pinnacle of irresponsibility is never leaving your child alone until they hit the age of 18, and then sending them off to live unsupervised for the first time in a place that is infamous for alcohol abuse. Of course, in our screwed up society, having a child who has never spent a weekend alone until they are shipped off to college is considered "good parenting".

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

I don't know what country you live in, but here in the US, kids are being retarded more and more, so they have the mentality of a 5 year old at the age of 10, and they have the mentality of a 13 year old at the age of 26. Kids here are not growing up quicker, they just keep getting slower and slower.

Re:Hmm

[NurturingFather]

I leave my 4 year old alone all the time. When he does get into trouble, I make him sit on an electric stove and turn that sucker all the way up. When I hear sizzlin', the little chap is free to get off. Haven't had much trouble recently. You ain't got shit on me mister empty threats. At least you feel superior to other parents, that in itself is important for raising narcissistic douche bags.

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

The reality is that if found at home at that age, the parents will likely be arrested. If the kids is outside, or half way home from school, everything is considered just fine. There is this bizarre disassociation that goes on with kids and being alone.

Re:Hmm

[samoanbiscuit]

I'm not OP, but I have to comment about childrens' development. My own little cousins have all learnt to read, write and perform arithmetics exceedingly early, and giving them access to a computer had them googling games and things like that in minutes.

However, convincing them that a laptop is valuable, and that bashing it on the floor several times to see what it was made of was bad? That took a lot longer than few minutes (weeks) , and during this time, they couldn't use the laptop unsupervised...

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

While I am sorry for your child's disablement, it is probably wise given the current legal climate.

Re:Hmm

[NurturingFather]

But things have gotten so bad? Just what has gotten so bad? What is worse today than 50, 100, 150 years ago? You think leaving a child alone is something that has only recently happened in human history. You're fucking stupid if you really think that. Children get left alone all the time, always have. Children get abused all the time, always have. Children get traded all the time, always have. Same with old people and sick people. They get abused to, because nobody wants to take care of the bastards. It's always been that way. We live in the most humane society ever homey. Try to make shit better, but don't fucking think it's new. Fucking hippies.

Re:Hmm

[therealbev]

Look, 5-year-olds aren't stupid. In third world countries they may be responsible for caring for their 3-year-old siblings. I wouldn't have left a 5-YO at home deliberately, but I inadvertently left my 4-YO at the drugstore when I had a carfull of kids (including the neighbors') with me and just, well, miscounted. Hey, he was really little, it could happen to anybody. He was playing in the toy department and didn't even know we'd gone. When I was 5 I walked a couple of miles to get home because the nun giving me piano lessons scared me. I'd never done that before, but we'd gone there by car and I knew the way.

Yeah, I think that BadAnalogyGuy was joking, but we really used to be a LOT more sensible about things than we are now. When we went anywhere in the car I stood up in the front seat so I could see out the window. My kids used those Maggie Simpson carseats, sometimes in a 2-door car whose seatback had no lock. AND WE ALL TALKED TO STRANGERS!

Re:Hmm

[monkyyy]

usa i used "grow up" in the main stream meaning of "not innocent"

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

The US, perhaps?

Re:Hmm

[Totenglocke]

Eight? Hell, I did that when I was six (not the walking from school though, too far, but I'd go a couple miles to the gas station to buy ice cream in the summer). Kids these days are too damn coddled.

Now someone get these damn whippersnappers off my lawn...

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't you just lay a complaint with Social Services, so they can get a warrant and the user's details?

You'll never see BadAnalogyGuy again.

Re:Hmm

[weicco]

Six? Hell, I was writing my first app with Vic20 when I was six! Poking this and peeking that...

Re:Hmm

[Trogre]

Quiet, you'll give the Pro-Choice brigade ideas.

Re:Hmm

[NurturingFather]

It has nothing to do with Home Alone. Kids have always been abused, traded, left alone, for all of human history, and it would have happened to whatever homo erectus and friends that existed before that. People who think that somebody saying they left their kid alone is some sort of indication of the decay of society is just unbelievably fucking stupid and naive as shit. Congratulations to you you stupid fuck.

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

True, we now live in a world where we silently do long term harm to all of our children so that we are not the ones made an example of if we turn out to be the unfortunate case of an extremely rare visible harm.

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

If a child is bashing in a laptop at the age of four, the parent has failed the child. For those children that simply must know what happens, the parent has failed by not picking up an already broken laptop, taking their kid outside and bashing in a laptop with their child in an appropriate fashion.

Re:Hmm

[uninformedLuddite]

All this peeking and poking. Who will protect the children?

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

Ahhh... Then instead of it being half as fast, make it a quarter as fast.

Re:Hmm

[uninformedLuddite]

Even though I hate the US and most of its people I have to say that normal development being retarded appears to be a Western thing and not just in the USA. I will add another comment to this thread if I can think of even the slightest reason to blame it on the USA.
I would love to conduct a survey of people over 40/50 to find out just how many can see this retardation in society growing and evolving. I have been of the opinion that younger people are getting dumber and dumber for many decades now. One of my mates thinks it's because as we age we become wiser but I don't agree. The stupidity is so off the chart that my questionable development of wisdom could in no way account for what I see.

Re:Hmm

[MokuMokuRyoushi]

My name is Dalton. I was born in the fall of 1992. Since my first years in elementary, society around me has become progressively more... uncaring. TV for over 8hours daily? Average XBoxLive usage? 3hours per subscriber, daily. I play a lot of computer games. Send about a hundred texts each day, spend an hour on the phone too. But to vegetate to the point where you no longer care if your siblings need help? To slip to a level where you plunk your child down in front of a TV screen, because the monumental mental taxation of going to the store requires utmost concentration? After all, the child isn't used to things like manners, or behaving in public. Chances are, they'll scream more than once, and kick you to boot(pun intended). Or consider the fact that 50% of the time my family goes shopping, the cashier 'oooh's and 'ahhh's at our bounty - because we buy vegetables. Yesterday, the slack-jawed attendant lifted a plastic bag filled to brimming with fresh green beans, asking "What are these?"
Politely enough, through her delicately masked exasperation, my Mother replied in synchronization with my 7 year old brother. That is not an unusual occurrence. As I mentioned, its all too common.
I only have two friends who read outside of school requirements.
The aforementioned 7 year old can navigate the browser to a dozen flash game sites, but refuses to spend the effort to read the instructions to play(I know, I'm working on it).
I spotted five comments on the way here that stated the poster wouldn't mind in the slightest if their 4 year olds watched porn.
A poster who labels himself "nurturing father" cussed five times at me for little reason.
...yes, that last one was a joke(mostly). But so is your comment. Presumably you're older than me; you haven't seen crap? I seriously doubt I'm a revolutionary on the subject. The problem, the reason you're scolding me, old man, is that you also care little. Or not at all. I'm not telling you that our world is already the world of Idiocracy(if you haven't seen the movie yet, it might entertain you to rent it or something), or even that it will be. I'm telling you the same thing I tell myself and everyone else daily. Dad had a reason for doing things the way he did. That reason is the same reason that he leads a self-owned business. The same one that allows him to run it without any employees besides his two sons. The same one that allows him to support a family of 8. Most importantly, it's the reason I have trust and respect for him. Children left alone, traded, molested and abused? Yeah, it's always happened. Probably always will. But don't act like that makes it okay. Don't brush it away with a "would you look at this faggot?" Don't just post what will feed you the most karma. Because at that point, you aren't worth the respect I give to an insect.

Re:Hmm

[digitig]

When we went anywhere in the car I stood up in the front seat so I could see out the window. My kids used those Maggie Simpson carseats, sometimes in a 2-door car whose seatback had no lock. AND WE ALL TALKED TO STRANGERS!

There might be an element of selection bias, though. We are the ones that survived that. Few if any of those who didn't survive are posting on slashdot.

Re:Hmm

[droopus]

Why is this modded troll? Y'all missing the sarcasm gene or what?

Re:Hmm

[digitig]

Yeah, I've seen the /. trolls too.

Re:Hmm

[droopus]

Bicycles?
Phones?
Microwaves?
Luxury!!

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the US, it is so bad that by the age of three, I had to teach my son that he had to have a secret identity. Like Superman. That when the other kids come over to play, we put away the electronics projects, we don't tell them that the computer is yours, you don't suggest chess, or read books to them. Pull out the simple toys when they come over. The toy kitchen, the balls, the hot wheels. It's still fun, and it doesn't make their parents feel uncomfortable.

People will flat out accuse you of abusing your child if your child is too smart, and you don't try to stifle them. Just look at many of the comments in this thread.

Re:Hmm

[Americano]

Kids have always been abused, traded, left alone, for all of human history, and it would have happened to whatever homo erectus and friends that existed before that.

So I'm confused - are you holding up pre-civilized notions of child rearing as "the way it should be done," here? Or are you just offended that somebody said that leaving a 5 year old home alone makes you a bad parent?

There are societies where 6 year olds are toting AK-47's and serving in rebel militias. I'd like to think that our laws against child neglect are a sign that we are slightly farther along the 'civilization' curve than those societies.

Re:Hmm

[deprecated]

Pics or it didn't happen.

Re:Hmm

[obarthelemy]

nice rant... 'xcept I think the joke was about leaving the kid alone while going shopping ?

Re:Hmm

[obarthelemy]

yes there is. your post is the same assholery than people arguing that *they* can drive drunk because they know their limits so well, and handle alcohol so well. they don't, you don't, your kids are not exceptional, and your parenting skills are subpar if you think different.

little kids cannot be counted upon to be reliable safe alone for any period of time.add to that the possibility of an exogenous emergency or upset...

Re:Hmm

[TangoMargarine]

I sincerely hope you're fucking joking about only hoping about not being sure about the guy being "obviously" joking.

See, we can do this all day. In conclusion, it is not "fucking obvious" whether someone is being sarcastic online.

Re:Hmm

[Hognoxious]

Few if any of those who didn't survive are posting on slashdot.

According to a study performed by the universities of Dublin and Warsaw, sterility is genetic. If your parents don't have any children, chances are you won't either.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

hehe no wonder americans are pussies. When i was young (7) i had to walk to school, 2 miles, uphill both ways. I did that for 9 years before we moved closer to school ;P

Suckers

(oh i live in norway and had to cross a valley so its actually true )

Re:Hmm

[sqldr]

yeah.. at least give him your credit card number and a casino login.

Re:Hmm

[Chrisq]

nice rant... 'xcept I think the joke was about leaving the kid alone while going shopping ?

Why so critical, he might have left them with a gun to protect themselves.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

The news has driven people to almost loony sorts of paranoia. I recently was in a small town picking up meeting a client at his house in the mid-afternoon. The area where he lived in was a suburban area, with a high school, a middle school, and an elementary school in less than 1/2 a mile from the area.

While going by, the police had cruisers parked up and down the only two entrances and exit roads, the police had at least 10-20 people at the elementary school (campus and county), and there were loads of SUVs (most being the Lexus RX type, a few newer Tahoes/Expys/Suburbans.) The kicker was while chewing the fat with a neighbor (who was out as part of the neighborhood watch), I was seeing people pick up their kid, drive about 1000 feet to their driveways, then go inside.

People are so paranoid these days that even with police protection that government officials would be proud of, people won't let their 10-12 year olds walk home? Yes, child abduction is a concern, but for the love of $DEITY, with all these police watching, are kidnappers so good now that they can elude a whole police force and neighborhood watch?

With all this paranoia, what are we instilling into our kids? There needs to be a reasonable concern (stranger/danger stuff), but are we as a nation going over the edge into pure self-destructiveness with this irrational fear?

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what kind of mass genetic disease has spread through the populations,

It's called stupidity.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes I take my 5 year old and my 3 year old shopping weekly, there is no screaming, there is no disciplinary action. if you can't handle raising children who listen to you, maybe you shouldn't have had them in the first place. Leaving a 5 year old at home is child abuse. and most state agencys would agree.

Yah, I don't understand these people. After one severe beating, my child straightened right up and hasn't whined once since. Of course, I would never touch my own child, that's why I beat the hell out of some random kid in the mall with my own child present. Threats of violence really work!

Leaving your child at home is not abuse. You just have to make sure they have a safe environment. That's why I always lock mine in the closet with a bucket of chicken and a gallon of water (in case I come home a few days late).

Re:Hmm

[godefroi]

Yes, child abduction is a concern

Not really, and especially not if there's no custody issues involving the kid.

Re:Hmm

[jpcarter]

Not if you live in Nebraska.

Re:Hmm

[tehcyder]

Leaving a 5 year old at home is child abuse. and most state agencys would agree.

Which really is too bad and is further proof The Idiots are Taking Over. I wonder what the state would say if the child was exceptionally well raised otherwise and had a vastly superior ability to think for him/herself since they have been given more to explore life for themselves.

Sure, while it probably isn't okay for people with average or less-than average children to leave them alone, for the people who have really great kids, there is nothing wrong with this.

And, let me guess, you have exceptional kids? As defined by...you?

Re:Hmm

[tehcyder]

I gave my son his first computer a couple of weeks after his first birthday.

That is the funniest thing I have read today.

Because I know you mean it.

Re:Hmm

[tehcyder]

It isn't child abuse for them to be outside by themselves, so everyone should remember that if they want to make a quick run down to the corner store, they should lock the kid outside. It will keep the parent out of trouble.

Please say you're joking, I don't think I can handle this much fucktardery otherwise.

Re:Hmm

[tehcyder]

Yes, child abduction is a concern

Not really, and especially not if there's no custody issues involving the kid.

The reason you don't let four or five year olds wander unsupervised around the streets has nothing to do with fears of paedophilic kidnapping.

Re:Hmm

[tehcyder]

I inadvertently left my 4-YO at the drugstore when I had a carfull of kids (including the neighbors') with me and just, well, miscounted. Hey, he was really little, it could happen to anybody.

Oh please, a carfull is what, five or six? How can you not count up to six?

Re:Hmm

[nabsltd]

Now someone get these damn whippersnappers off my lawn...

The sad part is that you could be less than 35 years old. That's how fast things have changed.

I suspect much of it is just like the TSA security theater...it's all about the government wanting more control. Sure, that sounds like tinfoil hat talk, but think about the current "problems" with kids bringing weapons to school, and how thirty years ago, there weren't any problems. Maybe the kids brought them, but there weren't many problems with it.

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

Of course I am joking. I am pointing out just how stupid people are for thinking that a few minutes alone IN THEIR OWN HOME is child abuse, but sending them out on the street is perfectly OK.

They will claim that they don't believe it, but when you take situations that they think are 'safe', and the situations that they think are 'child abuse', that is basically what they describe.

Re:Hmm

[godefroi]

Absolutely agree. I wouldn't let my 5-year-old wander alone, but I have no problem letting my 2 7-year-olds, my 6-year-old, and my 5-year-old (blended family) walk home from the bus, maybe 1/2 mile.

Re:Hmm

[Lumpy]

Like the Nut-jobs that try to reason with a 4 year old.

"WAHHHHHH I WANT DAT TOY! WAHHHHHHHH!"

"now tommy, the financial situation means we can not have the expense that they toy will create. WE have a strict budget we must follow, It's good financial practice...."

"....wAH.....HUH? TOY!!!!!! WAHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

"Tommy the fiscal predictions for the next quarter are not favorable... We should not have this unscheduled expense"

"WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

"tommy it is not a nice thing to do to kick daddy... is this how we are to act? Tommy, please stop throwing things That is very bad behavior..."

Tell the kid NO, we do not have the money. IF the kid hits you or acts out of control, a nice swat on the rear usually get's the message that the "behaivoir is not within acceptable parameters" through quite clear.

Re:Hmm

[chill]

That's why one of the first things you teach them is basic auto mechanics. If the kid can't rebuild a carb by age 4, the parent is a failure.

Re:Hmm

[Person147]

Your right.

No, your left. Or should that be my right? :s

Re:Hmm

[Lumpy]

Yup. My 19 year old is as mature as a 13 year old. Too stupid to stop smoking pot and get a job. I hope the visit by the army recruiter and me and my comment that "You are out in 3 months" will make a significant impact.

Lazy kid can get the hell out if School and real life is not as important as smoking pot with the loser friends.

Parents that let their loser pothead stay home after 18 are doing a dis-service to their kid.

Re:Hmm

[Lumpy]

Sounds like you need to make better friends for the kid to interact with.

My parents were ready to tell teachers and adults that they were imbeciles for telling them that I was learning too fast. You need to as well.

Stand up for your kid, give him a healthy image of himself and being smart.

Re:Hmm

[Mister Whirly]

"Nine times out of ten, having a wife is not the best way to solve the problem." - my life

Re:Hmm

[pspahn]

Just sayin... I was a latchkey child, and can remember my mom leaving for work and me walking to the bus stop for kindergarten after watching Romper Room (which, by the way, taught me how to dial 911 if something happens).

Am I exceptional? By certain metrics, I am. I was always safe as a kid, and remain so today. Was me being left home alone for about an hour every morning before school when I was six child abuse? Considering the alternative would have been a single mother unable to financially support her kids, I think child abuse is as far from reality as possible.

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

Yeah, that sounds great in theory. Unfortunately, anti-intellectual people out number intellectual people by such a huge number that it is exceedingly difficult to find them. Even those that CLAIM to endorse being intellectual tend to draw a line. They think it is fine for another kid to be a little ahead, but if they get too far ahead, then they must be stunted.

Telling teachers and adults that they are imbeciles for telling them that you were learning too fast is pointless, and frequently counter productive. With random adults, it is pointless, as whether random adults think your child is learning too fast, as their opinion doesn't matter.

Telling teachers that they are imbeciles on the other hand is counter productive. If you think you are going to change a teachers mind by calling them names, you are definitely NOT one of the smart ones. In fact, not only are you NOT going to get the teacher to teach the child at their full potential, you are now leaving your child with someone who both has a beef with you, and a will be proven 'right' if your child fails and has problems.

Homeschooling is the only option for kids that are really smart. There isn't a school in the country that is going to teach to the students to their ability, and insulting the teachers isn't going to change that.

I certainly stand up for my son and give him a healthy image about being smart, but just as I give him a healthy image of having a penis, I also teach him that exposing it in public can make many people REALLY uncomfortable. It can also lead to people actively attacking you.

Just as you show your penis to some people in life, and you hide if from many others, the same applies to high intelligence.

An example of work that no school will cover is my 6 year old son's educational work for today. He is working on finding lowest common denominators in fractions, and multiplying fractions. Can you point me to a single school in the country that will teach 6 year olds how to multiply fractions? And no, I don't mean memorizing that 2 halves equal a whole. I mean randomly selected fractions.

Re:Hmm

[w0mprat]

From about age 5 I spent a lot of time outdoors, somtimes on my own even. I'd wander with groups of kids unsupervised out in nature. Building forts in trees and daming streams. No police showed up took the kids home and laid child abuse charges.

I was better off for it. Locking our children up and wrapping them in cotton wool is exactly whats causing them harm, they are actually missing out on life lessons. No wonder so many kids are immature brats these days.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

So. I have three kids and four handguns at home. Two of my kids have fired them and know how to safely load and fire the guns. If my kids feel threatened enough to need the guns, I say the Muther Fucker must die!

Re:Hmm

[Gofyerself]

They have this mentality because society demands it of them and their parents bend to the will of society. I was 11 when I was babysitting my 12 year old brother, and 7 and 6 year old sisters. These days, your neighbor will call the police or child services before offering to be there for your children while you are out working. I have kids, 12, 11 and 9 and have no problem trusting them alone at home for 8-12 hours a day. In fact while I lived in Finland, my 12 year old (then 9) would babysit while I was at work and my wife was shopping. It does not take much to raise well adjusted, responsible kids.

Re:Hmm

[wvmarle]

Saying "no" should do the job indeed, but of course is not always accepted.

And instead of immediately starting to hit out at your child, try ignoring. May take a little longer (though being hit usually also doesn't exactly silence a child), but is at least as effective, if not more so.

Re:Hmm

[uninformedLuddite]

I keep this link on permanent standby as the last paragraph or two will usually leave those that claim education is fine speechless. Quite frankly, I don't envy you bringing a smart kid up in a world that rewards mediocrity more than merit.
I might sound like a bit of a wanker here(big deal) but I was brought up and treated by all around me as a prodigy. The education system couldn't deal with me and my childhood was absolute misery mostly due to pointless(at least to me) expectations.
Please try to remember that no matter how smart he may be he is still a kid and at times might rather throw a ball, swim in a lake, or do anything at all other than perform for others.
I'm not trying to advise you on child-raising as I am sure you are quite capable and I sincerely hope you don't take this the wrong way.

Re:Hmm

[monkyyy]

i`d still disagree with ur slowing down growing up speed idea, people tend to look at the worst of a given group of people and see the best of the past.

i`d say its a bit faster (maybe a year or two)for most but alot slower for some(never)

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

Well, when I was 7 and in the second grade, as long as the parent signed off, children could leave the school campus for lunch. Almost always to go home for lunch if they lived close. By the time I graduated from High School, 12th graders were not considered grown up enough to leave the school campus for lunch. So, in the 10 year between the 2nd and 12th grade, the age that children become mature enough to travel from school to home during lunch regressed by more than 10 years. Kids are growing up WAY slower than they did in the past.

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

I won't take it wrong, and that is an interesting link. I do think that it has one thing wrong though. It is focused on phonics being abandoned as the cause of all this trouble. That would not explain why science, finance, history, geography, mathematics, and everything else non-sports related is failing in our educational system as well as reading.

The problem is that our education system is no longer being used to educate. It is claimed to be for education but in fact, being smart in America is considered a bad thing. Reading is just one visible casualty of our national anti-intellectual culture.

Don't worry that he will be performing instead of having fun. Just look at my previous post. Our intelligence is like a secret identity. It is super cool, but when others are around, it is time to do the non-intellectual fun things.

The grand thing is that it only takes an hour or two a day to far outpace anything that the public schools have to offer. At 6, he already reads well enough that he could pass high school reading exams. He is only a year or two off from being able to pass high school mathematics. And, his understanding of science is already beyond most adults I know.

Writing is his weak point, and he is easily years ahead of his peers.

Again, this is all accomplished with just an hour or two a day. My son spends less time in the task of education, yet learns dramatically more. The thing that horrifies the faux-intellectuals is my only half tongue-in-cheek joke that if you want to raise a smart kid, they need lots of TV, Video Games, and lots of unsupervised time on the internet.

Re:Hmm

[uninformedLuddite]

The Entire Gatto book is available through that link I posted above. It is definitely well worth a read if you have the time. Nice to talk.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

More fodder for the prison system!

Well done sir, we need more 50cent/hour labourers in todays tough economic times!

But really, I take my 3yo shopping and if by 4yo you can't, you're doing something very, very wrong.

Re:Hmm

[GORby_]

Well, I sometimes go shopping with my 4 kids (5, 3 and twins aged 2) all by myself, and actually it's fun. They know how to behave, and they actually enjoy it, as do I.

They know they don't need to start nagging if they don't get what they want, because that NEVER helps. They don't take things off the shelves, unless I tell them to, and they are generally well behaved. I just give them a lot of positive attention, and encourage them to behave well. When they don't I just raise my voice a little bit, and they get to watch the others have fun with me while they get ignored for a few minutes.

Re:Hmm

[tehcyder]

You make it sound as though there is something retarded about three year olds playing with toys. Children have always and will always play, it is the main way they learn, especially at a young age.

Just because they're not performing like little Mozart monkeys for their pushy fucking parents doesn't mean they're stupid.

Re:Hmm

[tehcyder]

Why is this modded troll? Y'all missing the sarcasm gene or what?

Because the original poster went on to defend his initial statement, which meant that he was being serious rather than sarcastic. Most normal people couldn't believe that such a retarded belief was possible, so the conclusion would be that he must have been trying purely to provoke a reaction. (i.e. he was trolling).

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Children will not remember an hour later, you must make the punishment the exact second they do something incredibly bad as hitting someone.

Delaying punishment reinforces that they can get away with bad behavioral patterns.

Re:Hmm

[Belial6]

Ahhh... The stupidity strawman. Sorry to burst your stupidity bubble, but playing with toys and being smart are not mutually exclusive. It isn't the playing with toys that makes a kid retarded. It is the parents actively discouraging the child from playing with any toys that might allow the child to become smart that makes them retarded.

I realize that stupid people think that playing chess is not "playing" because it's "hard" for them. I realize that stupid people don't think that reading books is "playing" because it's "hard" for them. I realize that stupid people don't think that building your own electronic toys is considered "playing" because it's "hard" for them. I realize that stupid people don't think that using the computer and finding fun interesting things online is "playing" because it's "hard" for them.

I realize that stupid people would take the statement of "Pull out the simple toys when they come over. The toy kitchen, the balls, the hot wheels. It's still fun, and it doesn't make their parents feel uncomfortable." to mean that no toys are played with, and that they are not fun.

The fact that stupid people think these things doesn't make it true. It just points out that stupid people are, well, stupid.

You are exactly the kind of person that makes us normally developed people and our normally developed children go underground with intelligence. We hide who we are from your kind because as soon as you see the glimmer of intelligence, you break out the torches and pitchforks.

Here are some ideas that might scare you. Learning is fun. Having more toys is funner than having less toys. Being able to use more toys is funner than not being able to understand the toys. Being dumb means that you don't get you use the complex toys. Being smart means you can still use the simple toys.

Just as an example, right now, your school age child that "will always play" (if you have one) is sitting in a classroom. They have been in that classroom for 3 or 4 hours (PST), and will be sitting in that classroom for another 3 or 4 hours today. My 6 year old child that you describe as "performing like little Mozart monkeys for their pushy fucking parents" spent ~45 minutes this morning reading a book, and will spend another ~1 hour building project on his electronics kit. MAYBE we will spend 15 or 20 minutes on reviewing multiplication of fractions and factoring of fractions. But right now, he is online playing "Really Hard Mario", a flash game he found online, while The Fairly Odd Parents plays on the TV in the background.

Apparently stupid people think that spending most of your day sitting in a classroom doing busywork is "playing". Your child has bells ring to indicate it is time to stand. Bells ring to indicate that it is time to sit. Bells ring to indicate that it is time to get in a line. Has to raise their hand and wait to be instructed on whether you can go to the bathroom or not. To stupid people, this is NOT "performing like little Mozart monkeys for their pushy fucking parents".

On the other hand, stupid people think that getting your learning done by doing fun stuff for a couple of hours, then watching TV and playing for the rest of the day is "performing like little Mozart monkeys for their pushy fucking parents".

I find it hard to even type that without being amazed at your incredible stupidity, and your hatred for intelligence. Given that you are in the majority, and we have already had to go underground with being smart, I shouldn't be amazed anymore. But, the sheer absurdity and magnitude of the the stupidity is dizzying.

Re:Hmm

[Paracelcus]

When I was 5 or 6 my dad put me into foster care (in the 1940's) I loved it, a house on Staten Island, a lawn, carpeting, no stink of cigarettes or bug-spray, other kids to play with! Then it ended & back to Brooklyn I went, bummer!

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Police State? Not sure... but it might be in the US

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Awesome rant. Just because it's condescending doesn't mean it's not true.

Re:Hmm

[monkyyy]

no thats more legal issues for the school(see the "warning hot" on fast food coffee, from stupid lawsuits w/o the idiots who burnt their tongue with expert lawyers not having to prove their idiots )

the real problem of how badly the law deals with age groups of 1 year olds- 17 treated the same then 18-65 the same then 65+, where no matter on which end of the age groups your in the law treats you the same meaning the high schools are supposed to treat 17 years as someone 16 years younger, a whole another screw up, for another day.....

but cant be used as evidents that people are growing up slower

Re:Hmm

[way2trivial]

http://www.latchkey-kids.com/latchkey-kids-age-limits.htm

lowest age shown is 8

Xandros

[SpazmodeusG]

I bought an EeePC which had Eee-Xandros pre-installed. I've found it to be absolutely fantastic for children with its big icons and really simplistic interface. It even came with a ton of pre-installed games and educational apps for children so it was clearly designed with that in mind.

The only issue is that I'm not sure how you go about getting the EeePC distro of Xandros without buying an EeePC (the regular Xandros distro is quite different and doesn't have the customised interface).

Re:Xandros

[gnapster]

The only issue is that I'm not sure how you go about getting the EeePC distro of Xandros without buying an EeePC (the regular Xandros distro is quite different and doesn't have the customised interface).

I have been dying to know this, myself. My Eee PC came with Windows XP, and I would like to think that Asus's flavor of Xandros would play better with my hardware than Ubuntu does.

Re:Xandros

[tehcyder]

Couldn't you just copy it off the old EeePC which had it installed?

Re:Xandros

[SpazmodeusG]

Only the EeePC drivers are compiled in to the kernel. It's also 32bit. So you can still do it in theory using a lot of kmodding and editing of config files but i'm not willing to do that.

bumps

[bugs2squash]

The best thing to put on it would be lots of little round bumps, so that it will stick to lego bricks.

FreeDOS

[damn_registrars]

Format it, and then install FreeDOS and nothing else. Let him figure out the rest on his own. It should keep him out of trouble for quite a while. If you're feeling generous, install some sound card drivers for him (though not necessarily the best ones, or even the right ones).

Re:FreeDOS

[Narishma]

I don't think there are DOS drivers for the sound chips you find in current (from the past 10 years) computers, so no worry there.

Re:FreeDOS

[monkyyy]

thats cruel, i got a blue-screened windows 2000 at 7 :P i taught myself most of dos(the weak version that they used to have as a fixing tool before they had safe mode) w/o help

Re:FreeDOS

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure we have all been there and done that. It almost became a game making a boot disk for every game.

Re:FreeDOS

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats awesome! Wish someone would have done that to me at 4. Of course FreeDOS didn't exist and laptops had green screens...no soundcards, either.

how about a fishing pole

[Dolphinzilla]

Get your 4 year old outside and away from computers for at least a little while longer, my kids cannot even contemplate getting on a bicycle and riding all over town like we did as kids, most of the time on a beautiful day in Florida they are inside surfing the web, playing computer games or texting on their cell phones. Just saying...

Re:how about a fishing pole

[JohnFluxx]

How about *you* get on a bicycle and cycle around in your spare time.

Oh, because it's not that much fun to do it all the time? Double standards?

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Dolphinzilla]

its dark here in Florida - I did spend today outside and not on-line :-)

Re:how about a fishing pole

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

And what fat lot of good did it do to you? Riding them bicycles around town. You ended up a washed out "get off my lawn" poster on slashdot for God's sake.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Alarindris]

It's more fun when you are a kid. Just like playing house or cowboys and indians. I can't believe I'm explaining this.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't have kids, but can't a parent simply lay down the law, get them off their butts and onto bikes, etc.?

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it is. I do it all the time - whenever I can.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[monkyyy]

agreed people should treat kids like adults when serous physical harm or loss of innocence are not involved

Re:how about a fishing pole

[icebraining]

Yes, it's better to prevent any usage at all, because setting boundaries and time limits is too much effort.

If your kids spend all the time surfing, it's not the computers' fault, it's YOURS and your lack of parenting.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[ieatcookies]

I see a lot of these posts. The op did not say he plans to park his child in front of a computer all day while he rips rails off prostitutes bellies. There is nothing wrong with encouraging pastimes of this nature. Play outside while it's sunny, play inside when it's not. Load it up with some bookmarks to the many games directed to young minds on the Internet.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Pokey.Clyde]

Well, stop and think about where you're explaining it.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Anonymous Coward]

It's still fun, but only if you would just try it again.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Anonymous Coward]

no its not, we just have to act as if its a stupid thing to do.

but its easier to do as a kid, all your friends are near and care free...

nowadays... ask whatever friend you have if he wants to go have some fun and see how long you need to compare agendas to find a good timing.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Anonymous Coward]

.. most of the time on a beautiful day in Florida they are inside surfing the web, playing computer games or texting on their cell phones. Just saying...

I learned it from watching you, Dad! I LEARNED IT FROM WATCHING YOU!

Re:how about a fishing pole

[jotaeleemeese]

I would never submit children of mine to the savagery of fishing.

If they do it by themselves when they are adults, their choice.

And I love fish by the way, just saying that the idea of fun is not universal, so reading people commanding suggestions is frankly puzzling.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Anonymous Coward]

If it were more fun for a kid compared to staying inside, then he'd be riding his bike and not playing the computer game, without anyone telling him to.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[unkiereamus]

Fuck that, I'm 27 and Cowboys and Indians is still fun.

Now stick 'em up, pardner!



Why yes, I did used to smoke a lot of pot, why do you ask?

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Belial6]

Suggesting that people not let their kids use computers makes as much sense as suggesting people not let their children learn to read. Sure, they will pick either one up eventually, but the sooner they can effortlessly doe either one, the larger and richer their world becomes.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Sepodati]

So because you failed to manage things as a parent, he shouldn't even try? Kick their asses out of the house if it's that important to you or just let them enjoy what they're doing.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Archangel Michael]

What???

I still like playing House ... often as cowboy and indian ..

I can't believe I'm admitting this ;)

Re:how about a fishing pole

[gknoy]

We still play cowboys and indians, we just do it dressed as the good guys or the Opfor in games like CoD.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha, I used to love bicycling all over town when I was in Jr High, High School, and even now on the road bike. My first trip to the gas station to get a soda with a friend and no parents was probably when I was ten. That was cool! When I had money for it, I bought a motorcycle and started cycling all over the state.

You know, when I was a kid, my Dad used to pedal all over the neighborhood w/ me. When we went camping, he'd pedal all over the camgrounds, etc, w/ us and we pretty much had free reign to explore. He supported me in the time I spent on the computer... doing whatever it was I was doing. Some of the games I played, we had conversations about, discussing what we could learn about life and stuff from the game.

For a four year old... show him paint, for sure. :-) I don't think I really like all the stuff on the Nick Jr, Disney, etc. sites. I feel like allot of their stuff is geared to create the perfect little consumers w/ brand preference, so I'd really suggest sticking to open source, etc. blah when you can.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[unkiereamus]

Actually I don't, but I have a much dirtier secret...before I left the states, I was a member in good standing with the SCA.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[jamesh]

Why is it that every time someone asks a question like this on Slashdot, someone always pipes up with "your kid shouldn't have a computer they should be playing outside"? Who's to say the kid doesn't already play outside and doesn't already own a handful of fishing poles? Seriously, you aren't helping.

There's plenty of time in the day for doing both things, and depending on what part of the world he's in, going outside during most of the day is generally frowned on these days due to holes in the ozone layer (or is that just us in Australia?). A bit of time on the computer every so often isn't going to hurt him, especially if its a substitute for what passes as entertainment on TV these days.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[GrumblyStuff]

Try to be a kid again. Or are you saying you wouldn't play those games with your kids because you're an adult?

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Anonymous Coward]

Cowboys and Indians is a racist game. You want to teach your children to be racist?

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Anonymous Coward]

No free time, haz to check email you insensitive clod!!

Re:how about a fishing pole

[Alarindris]

Whoops, I meant Europeans and Native Americans.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[tehcyder]

I don't have kids, but can't a parent simply lay down the law, get them off their butts and onto bikes, etc.?

Yes, but unfortunately you have to run/cycle along with them, as it's sort of frowned upon these days just to let loose a 4 year old on pubic roads, even if they do have stabilisers and a Barbie helmet.

Re:how about a fishing pole

[RancidPeanutOil]

I respect your argument (more fun for kids), but your evidence ("just like playing ... cowboys and indians") is not valid. Yeee-hah!!!!

Sugal Labs

[AmElder]

Sugar Labs is the OS loaded on the OLPC laptops. It's made for children and one page of its website says that the programs loaded are accessible to children as young as four years old. While I've only given it a cursory glance in a VM myself, it comes as a complete digital learning environment with programming games, text editor, web browser, and an integrated journal system where the young user can record what he or she learns after using each program. I heard Walter Bender describe the project a couple of months ago and apparently the OS opens the FOSS code behind all of the software to the user as well, for learning and tinkering. It's probably most enriching if the child has an adult around who can help them develop good habits, protect them from disturbing content, and reflect on what their figuring out.

Re:Sugal Labs

[damitr]

I completely agree! Sugar would be ideal for a 4 year old, with the kind of activities that are available on the Sugar Labs website.

Qimo For Kids.

[Thimma]

How about install http://www.qimo4kids.com/

Tux Paint, Scratch, and Google Earth

[mwalter.nl]

I teach Technology in an elementary school and the only 3 programs I install on computers (besides my enforced MS Office Install) are Tux Paint [http://www.tuxpaint.org/download/] (don't forget the stamps!), Scratch [http://scratch.mit.edu/], and Google Earth. Just make sure you have tolerance for sound with Tux Paint and Scratch. Tux Paint will end up with a never ending cacaphony of flushing toilets and frogs, and Scratch couldleave someone wondering why you hear a looped cat meowing with drums in the background. Google Earth needs no explanation.

Re:Tux Paint, Scratch, and Google Earth

[tehcyder]

Google Earth needs no explanation.

No, but it does need something a bit more powerful than a netbook. It can be painfully slow on even reasonable desktops more than a couple of years old.

If a young kid shows a technical aptitude

[scourfish]

Music lessons would probably benefit him more.

Re:If a young kid shows a technical aptitude

[icebraining]

When I was a kid I had both. From the posts here it seems 4 year old kids now have jobs or something, they can only do one thing ever.

When I was a kid, I played with a computer 3 hours a week, on Saturday mornings, and the rest of the time I did everything else - sports, music lessons, socializing in day care, plenty of LEGO, etc.

Kidzui

[Anonymous Coward]

Kidzui - a curated browser for kids. Even sends parents a weekly email letting them know what their kids were doing.

MS-DOS

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the only way to be sure they don't get into trouble.

Forget the laptop.

[westlake]

Give the kid something physical to do. Something he can share with others. Stomp Rocket Junior Thinking building blocks. Tricycles. Pedal cars. Toys that have been around for a century or more.

The photographs and videos you take of him playing will become more priceless with each passing year.

Re:Forget the laptop.

[JohnFluxx]

So why aren't you doing that?

Re:Forget the laptop.

[f3rret]

He could also give the kid some lawn darts and a rock.

Those things have been around forever too!

Windows Live

[sirsnork]

If you're going to leave Windows on it, load up something like the Windows Live Family Safety. It comes in Windows Live Essentials or as a seperate download. It's managed by MSN logins and lets you set time limits, website blocking, whitelisting or blacklisting of applications as well as being able to restrict games based on their ratings. All this and it's free. Course, parenting works too, but given this isn't your child, maybe thats more of a challenge

Re:Windows Live

[Anonymous Coward]

Another free (and lightweight) one is K9 Web Protection. I use it on my kids' computers...combined with a heavy dose of physical monitoring and teaching. It does what I need.

The thing to remember is that no filter is 100% secure...the easiest way to get around any filter is to go online at your friends house. The key is to *teach* and *communicate* with your children. Let them know what is and isn't acceptable in your home (this also differs from family to family).

Get a filter...it will help avoid most (but not all) accidental exposure...and use it as a communication tool with your kids. Let them help pick what is and isn't acceptable. And don't expect software to make up for poor parenting on your part.

Tie

[Anonymous Coward]

Tie Fighter, The Incredible Machine 2, Pipe Dream, Doom, X-Wing, Jazz Jackrabbit, Rebel Assault.

It's what I had, and what I hope to give to my children also.

Re:Tie

[Kamineko]

Anything with a level editor! (Perhaps not Duke Nukem 3D's BUILD, though.)

Re:Tie

[tehcyder]

If you think Doom is an appropriate game for a four year old, you probably should postpone becoming a parent for a while (say until you're eighteen).

Install

[defaria]

Linux.

Edubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow! All the nerds and not one of them screams "Edubuntu"! They must still be sleepy from the turkey. Anyway, besides being loadec with fun educational software it also contains nanny software.

MS Office

[Anonymous Coward]

Install MS Office, and only that. Get him acquainted with the drudgery of adult life early on. Give him assignments. Give vague instructions and complain when he doesn't do exactly what you had in mind (but didn't express). Contradict yourself - not just between meetings but within the same meeting. Indeed, schedule meetings, often, and move them around, often. Set up a script to send him emails at increasing rates - start at 100/day go up from there. Copy other members of your family even if they're not involved, so they can see that you're working (sending emails) and to cover your ass should someone, like your wife or other kids, claim you never told them about something. Make him give powerpoint presentations to the family, using lots of text and clipart. If he has a question or problem with the computer, make him submit a ticket. When he follows your instructions and things go awry, deny ever having told him what to do. Show biases towards one child or another, but change it, randomly, to simulate management changes. Have tons of polices and procedures, documented online but hopelessly out of date. Plan for reviews, but then never do them or give no meaningful feedback. Condition him to learn that doing well isn't so important as ingratiating yourself with the right folks.

Re:MS Office

[monkyyy]

no he has 12 years of school to look forward to that, start him on some form of meditation to make him doubt everything he does, stay quiet, and addicted so he LIKES IT himself that way, also try some emo music and start early on the caffeine/sleep dep cycle, and paint your whole house a off white color and hang motivational posters everywhere

Phun

[CyberDragon777]

How about Phun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5g9VS0ENM

Re:Phun

[nico.waller]

Yeah, seconded, Phun is a really intuitive but surprisingly powerful toy. Great for any age.

I just made this browser for kids

[RebrandSoftware]

I just finished this browser for kids and released it the other day. I use it with my three year old daughter so that she can use the web without encountering a lot of advertising or unapproved sites.

http://www.rebrandsoftware.com/showsoftware2.asp?soft_id=32

It still requires parental involvement but my daughter loves being able to browse and pick videos. It seems like kids are better with trackpads than with mice.

Here you go

[pvera]

If you would consider upgrading it to Windows 7 you will get parental controls that are simple to control. You can set allowed access times, game access based on ratings, and which apps the child can/cannot run.

Set the machine so it can only browse pbskids.org, which should keep him busy for hours. If you do this at the router level then you don't have to worry about the kid being able to defeat the filter.

I have a 12-yr old with autism, and as soon as he was curious about computers (5 yr old or so), that's how I dealt with it. My only beef with parental controls is Youtube, which refuses to use proper ratings. Instead it takes into account the age (minimum 13) of the account holder and it refuses to show content flagged as objectionable if the viewer is not at least 18. The problem is that the child eventually runs into content that hasn't been flagged yet, which is annoying as hell. Except for the youtube issue, pretty much everything else respects the parental ratings. Firefox for some reason didn't like to play nice with these in OSX 10.5 and 10.6, but Safari is fine. I haven't checked if this is an issue with Windows 7 too.

The other thing I did is I setup his mac in the living room, facing a wall. My wife keeps her laptop at a spot in a living room that is in a direct line of sight of his, so all she has to do is look up and she can see what he is doing.

And yeah, *my* laptop is set so I can see HER screen and his. She's clueless about computers, so I have to keep an eye on hers as much as the 12-yr old.

Re:Here you go

[wvmarle]

The other thing I did is I setup his mac in the living room, facing a wall.

THAT is to me the most important part of your set-up. Make it easy to keep an eye on what they're doing, without having to actually watch them every single moment.

Re:Here you go

[tehcyder]

The other thing I did is I setup his mac in the living room, facing a wall.

THAT is to me the most important part of your set-up. Make it easy to keep an eye on what they're doing, without having to actually watch them every single moment.

That's fine until they work out how to play Justin Bieber videos on YouTube. Over and over again. Believe me, you won't want to stay in the same room as them for long then.

Leave the Porn

[Anonymous Coward]

Leave the porn. In an encrypted file. On a disk image. Formatted ext3. Compressed with 7zip. Each image stego'd into images of kittens and puppies.

By the time he gets them out, he'll be old enough for them, and will thank you for the awesome start to the porn collection.

Shred the Porn...

[TheIndifferentiate]

If the techie gene runs strong with this one, you'd best shred the porn files or you will be kick-starting his porn collection (yes, he will have one someday, techie and all...).

Wipe out XP first

[NotesSensei]

use a Netbook Linux version. There's plenty in e.g. Edubuntu and the Game repository that points towards early math and early reading. Sugar as UI might be worth a try. And yes - be certain on the websites you allow. Less so about seeing people like god made them, but more about things people do to each other not covered by the 10 commandments (there's nothing in there prohibiting looking at a paradise suit, but a lot against violence).

Kids these days don't get apps

[softgrow]

You'll be surprised that they can spend many hours running Flash or Java straight off websites. I would however load TuxPaint and shortcuts on the desktop to some safe and attractive starting points like Club Penguin as well as your choice of national broadcasters "kids" site (e.g. Australia - ABC for Kids, US - PBS Kids, Japan - Kids World).

The main thing though is to control logon time using NET USER. I'd only allow a one or two hour slot each day and one or two rest days with no access permitted. Be brutal and blame the computer when it says "logon has time limits".

Re:Kids these days don't get apps

[monkyyy]

lol i`d hope that ur child knows ur lieing or else very quickly they will learn to "fix" the computer

Re:LOLWHAT?!?! You posted your add. and #?!?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

People here are all talk. Keyboard warriors.

In real life, they are pussies and won't do a goddamned thing about it.

Jolicloud

[IHateEverybody]

If your computer can run XP, it can run Jolicloud. The kid probably lives on the web anyway and Jolicloud apps are mostly web apps. So load Jolicloud alongside Windows, so he can see that it's possible to be a geek without being being loyal to any one platform, be it Windows, Mac, or Linux.

What does your local elementary school use?

[12345Doug]

This is perfect timing for this question. I myself am converting one of my old laptops for use for my daughters (oldest is 5) and I am struggling with this same question. Our elementary school uses the Millie's Math House, Bailey's Book House series so I will probably purchase a copy and install them as my daughter says working with those programs is the funniest thing she does is school. Keep in mind I haven't used them yet and can't give any first hand accounts on them but the school uses them so to provide continuity with the learning experience that is what I will do as well. That might be a good place for you to start as well. Talk to the local elementary school and find out what they use. Other than that I'm going to look into some of the suggestions here to see what might be suitable.

Here's what my 4 year-old loves...

[AugstWest]

I've got a desktop in the basement with just a vga cable, usb cable and audio coming up through the floor. This way he (and, more importantly, his 2 year-old brother) can't damage the CD drive, etc. Tray-loading drives are immensely popular with the "break things" set.

He spends the vast majority of his computer time in Chrome, at:

Starfall (by far my personal favorite, if you've got a toddler around, spend some quality Starfall time with them)
PBS Kids
Playhouse Disney
Nick Jr.

We also have 2-3 Dora games installed, as well as a Cool School keyboard, which came with some very cool games. Amazon carries them, and eBay has quite a few for cheap.

He loves Photobooth on my macbook, so I found Snap, and set up a webcam for him to make crazy pictures of himself and his brother.

Also, I would make sure that there's an easy-to-find shortcut to good ol' Paint. He loves playing with it, and it's one of the more creative things he can do, rather than just doing what a game or a website tells him to.

Re:Here's what my 4 year-old loves...

[vsny]

Starfall looks like a great site. Thanks! I just played with my 3 year old and she loves it. She's so excited now she won't go to bed!

I think there are too many comments so far about sending your kid outside or buying physical toys. I think those comments are unrealistic or irrelevant. Of course your kid should go outside but what do they do after 5pm. Sure she has a room full of toys that she plays with. Dolls, toyhouse, legos, paint, clay, etc. But I want my kid to read as well.

Well-made software like this has built a strong desire for my daughter to read at 3 years old. Even reading books to her every night since she was 10 months old has not created as strong as a desire.

There is some great windows software as well - reader rabbit, key skills, and jumpstart. I like the software better than flash websites - for the younger kids you don't have to worry about them mis-clicking on the start menu, back button, etc. Just a minute ago my daughter right-clicked and was sitting at the adobe flash website wondering what to do next.

Re:Here's what my 4 year-old loves...

[Anonymous Coward]

As a father of a 3 & 5 yr old, I also recommend Starfall as a good introduction for younger kids.

Does he really need it?

[raind]

How about playing catch, kickball, etc.

Re:Does he really need it?

[icebraining]

Do you really need to post on Slashdot?

Also, does using a computer really prevents him from playing that?

Re:Does he really need it?

[monkyyy]

how about some mind-less labor and some shut up and listen to the rich people as they are always right, etc.

emulators - show them them old stuff first

[Anonymous Coward]

Load up some emulators and roms and get them to see how things came along in the world chronologically.....hit abondonia or underdogs and pick up monkey island style games and educate them with gameplay/mechanics rather than graphics and glamour.

As they see how things developed over the years and they will learn more than just getting the net. Lock their connection down to a few sites and let them request different sites if they want them also this way you can choose their net diet rather than letting them just eat junkfood so to speak

Re:emulators - show them them old stuff first

[monkyyy]

junkfood is the stuff that the body hates not what the tongue and eyes hate
the parent approved stuff is some of the worst "junkfood" around and even if it isn't eating only a few things can be just as bad

Re:LOLWHAT?!?! You posted your add. and #?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Google "Vice President of the United States residence"

Gcompris

[Anonymous Coward]

Gcompris is something all my kids love. My 8 year old has missed one spelling word in 2 years and has yet to miss a math problem. I think part of that is due to playing with gcompris since he was around 3 or 4.

Re:LOLWHAT?!?! You posted your add. and #?!?

[igreaterthanu]

A simple Google search would bring up this.

Re:LOLWHAT?!?! You posted your add. and #?!?

[evilad]

No mod points, sorry. But you deserve one in every category plus a few that they don't have yet.

Enriching!

[nanospook]

I used to spend hours doing it when my parents locked me in the closet.. I ended up with a screw and a driver..

ROFL

[cloakedpegasus]

LOL @ "shouldn't see until college"

how about...

[Dzimas]

... focusing on manual dexterity and spatial awareness instead? Lincoln Logs, Lego, a high quality set of coloring pencils. He's almost old enough to discover the wonders of screwdrivers and simple woodworking. The poor kid doesn't need to sit there mashing on a mouse and buttons, staring unblinking at a little LCD panel a couple of feet from his nose.

Re:how about...

[icebraining]

... focusing on manual dexterity and spatial awareness too?

FTFY.

Re:how about...

[f3rret]

Nah he should be working with various pointy and sharp objects instead!

Re:LOLWHAT?!?! You posted your add. and #?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you really just post your address and phone number information??

He did if he lives at the United States Naval Observatory.

NO

[Anonymous Coward]

Kids don't need computers. Jesus, if there isn't a spare half hour in the day that you can sit with him on YOUR computer, he doesn't need one at all. Thats how I learned, on dad's knee for short periods of time. Giving the kid his own computer is just opening to the door to addiction and as this is Slashdot, I know we've all struggled with computer addictions. Some (few) of us have beaten them and re-learned to enjoy the outdoors and activities with real people.

Re:NO

[icebraining]

Maybe you should stop projecting and assume everyone is equal.

Also, you should understand that it is possible to set and enforce time limits. Strange this "parenting" thing, I know.

Corporeal punishment

[Anonymous Coward]

I was fortunate to not be the owner of the PC in the house when I was a kid. When I screwed up the OS on that thing, it was crunch time to learn how to fix it before Dad got home and came upstairs; and I did. It is amazing how fast you can absorb info in that situation.

Kidspeak

[spike2131]

Kidspeak is good for language learning. My kid is working on the French, but there are a bunch to choose from: http://www.transparent.com/personal/kidspeak.html

Firefox whitelist extensions

[Anonymous Coward]

Zoodles for kids ages 3-8
KidZui for kids up to 12

Scratch

[tuxguy_ga]

Scratch! http://scratch.mit.edu/

Re:Scratch

[janerules]

Avoid Facebook. As soon as I saw someone mention Scratch I wanted to "Like" this.

My 5 year old's PC

[Anonymous Coward]

Desktop set up so that the screen faces into the room. This is a far better screening technique than any technological method. If you are very concerned, get a logging firewall (I used smoothwall on a custom built 10th hand PC, and enabled traffic logging)

http://schoolsplay.wikidot.com/website:childsplay
Club Penguin (relatively cheap, and aimed at the age).
WoW (as was mentioned by others). It provides hours of fun. Fortuneatly I have taught him not to queue as a tank.
A word processor of some kind. He loves typing random pictures.
Links to various kid's websites. http://www.abc.net.au/abcforkids/
Favourate videos.
Our older child played many many hours on age of mythology.

Be aware that your computer is newer, shinier and has different 'stuff' than his. Once our child got hooked, your PC becomes a target. I suggest passwords on screensavers.

Re:My 5 year old's PC

[tehcyder]

A word processor of some kind. He loves typing random pictures.

Er...I'm not sure you've quite got the hang of this whole computer thing yourself..

Browser Plugin

[igreaterthanu]

How hard would it be to make a browser plugin that runs object recognition algorithms on every image before it loads? Okay sure it's not 100% guaranteed to work every time, but very few things in life are.

Learning games for kids

[brycef]

http://gcompris.net/

What To Load On a 4-Year-Old's Netbook?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cinder blocks. That way he'll go outdoors and play. 4 year olds just don't need computers.

Re:What To Load On a 4-Year-Old's Netbook?

[icebraining]

Nobody needs computers.

Better Keyboard/Better input

[Anonymous Coward]

You want his fine motor skills to be enhanced, not challenged. Try to get him into good habits now before he winds up with damage done, as pediatricians and physical therapists are starting to see. Netbook would encourage sitting hunched over on the floor, on the couch, on a bed, and that's very, very bad.

Otherwise, most of the good stuff is online -- very little you have to load.

EduBuntu

[Sylak]

EduBuntu. Also, wait till he's six.

My kids (4 & 6) have...

[Temujin_12]

* Gcompris
* Childsplay
* TuxPaint
* Celestia
* phun
* starfall.com
* sesame street's site

We use OpenDNS to prevent accidental stumbling on material we do not want them to view. Furthermore, we limit video game time to 1 hr a day and TV/movie time to 1-2 hr a day. They have to use their imagination to be entertained the other hours of the day (coloring, playing, outside time, etc.).

Re:My kids (4 & 6) have...

[Clopnixus]

You wouldn't consider adopting me? I just wanna have phun!

Deep Freeze

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Partition the drive into System and User partitions
1. Do a clean install from original disks on the System partition
2. Remove bloatware
3. Minimize the startup load by using available "fast start" methods
4. Obtain and install Deep Freeze (Faronics labs)
5. Install the free add-on "igloo" from Faronics. This will allow the user partition to hold data such as browser preferences.
6. When everything looks right, activate Deep Freeze (it can be turned off for updates).

Deep Freeze returns the system to a known state upon each reboot. The system will not run slower with age (typical of XP) and will shed viruses, root kits (but probably not BIOS kits). This will keep the system useful longer and reduce your support workload to near zero. I have this on two ASUS Disney netbooks, one mine, one for an inlaw far away.

Install Qimo

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.qimo4kids.com/

For God's sake, don't give a kid a computer

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, freaking c'mon, dude!! Like if a 4yo kid might need a PC! Let him go out and experience the world and not just sit in front of a freakin screen for the rest of his life! I mean, whatever he does in the future will probably be related in some way to computers, what's the rush?! Whatever, dude, whatever. But you suck...

Re:For God's sake, don't give a kid a computer

[monkyyy]

(as a teenager form today and seeing how much worst even my little brother has it) the outside world for my age 40% drugs, sex, ect and 50% a cleaned up version of 4chan and 10% outcasts with all sorts of different issues and i sure it will get even worst. teaching a child about an outside world were some people dont suck, you can have a different opinion other then the 2 extremes on either end as soon as possible

Re:For God's sake, don't give a kid a computer

[Sepodati]

I bet you thought your English class was the worstest, huh? At least your percentage numbers added to 100, so you paid attention in math!

Re:For God's sake, don't give a kid a computer

[monkyyy]

y yes i did have the worstest english class, mind pointing out my spelling/grammar mistake in the last post so i can prevent where i left my comment open to trolls from happening again, as im behind on my sleep and cant see it

mod parent insightful please.

[unity100]

it touches important points and i dont have any mod points to spend.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

Soup Toys is an awesome drag and drop toy box from http://www.souptoys.com/ and it's free.

Gcompress

[D66]

I just loaded a PC for my 4 year old. Used Ubuntu
After I finished loading it I locked out the wireless.
Gcompris, Childsplay, and Tuxpaint are all big hits.
http://gcompris.net/
http://www.schoolsplay.org/

please shut up

[unity100]

'learning to entertain oneself' was what i had to do in early 80s because there wasnt anything to satisfy entertainment needs. i see those early 80s as lost years, having little to do.

had there been internet while i was growing up, i would not only evaded being bored to hell, but also gain a lot of skills that would help me greatly today.

i had read britannica, larousse encyclopedias over and over, from boredom. i have learned much more by reading history on wikipedia in 1.5 years, than i spent reading encyclopedias and watching documentaries for over 15 years in between 1980-1995.

no

[unity100]

4 year old kids should be wherever they have a natural inclination and desire to be. for, only that would make their character come out.

Out OF Touch Parenting

[b4upoo]

Things have changed quite a bit. Although many kids will never talk to parents about such things even when they need to, these days sexual experiences begin in the seventh or eighth grade with great frequency. Recently there has been a fad with middle school girls as they became aware that the boys liked girls who said yes a lot better than those who said no. Apparently these young girls decided that oral sex was the thing to do and made sure that it was well known that they performed for enough boys that it was understood that they always took care of their boy friends. This stuff extended into high school boys who sometimes hire hookers getting attention from middle school girls. On top of all that there are fathers and older brothers who dip where they should not be dipping and the results have brought HIV and other problems down as far as elementary school levels.
                Think of it this way: In 1950 parents fought to keep kids away from cigarettes and booze. In 1980 there was a war to keep kids away from crack. Now we fight to keep kids away from ICE or crystal meth as it is sometimes called. The chances of keeping kids far away from porn are slim these days. Just be happy if your eighth grade girl isn't pushing a baby carriage.

Re: Out OF Touch Parenting

[Anonymous Coward]

wtf are you talking about?

First, my great grandmother married my great grandfather when she was 13 and he was 18. Growing up I looked up to them more than anyone else. They where a truly good and loving couple for 60+ years with no issues. Today people are locked up and murdered for the same thing. Sex at seventh/eighth grades are not out of the ordinary for sexually active kids who are doing something out of ignorance because their parents are not forward with them.

Second, meth is a popular drug from the 40's. Today its popularity is at an all time low. It never has been a childrens drug and probably never will be. Not only are you completely out of touch with society but your paranoia only fuels it. All of the illegal drugs that are popular today are not only safer than past popular illegal drugs but are also safer than alcohol and cigarettes. The big drugs right now are pot and mdma just like in the 90s. Both are quite safe in comparison to most of the shit out there. (Not that I obviously recommend it. It is just better to learn the facts then to bluntly start spewing propaganda.)

Re: Out OF Touch Parenting

[tehcyder]

Sex at seventh/eighth grades are not out of the ordinary for sexually active kids who are doing something out of ignorance because their parents are not forward with them.

So it is parents who are somehow forcing kids to have sex at a younger age because they won't share their pr0n with them?

Interesting theory.

It doesn't matter...

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't matter what you put on there... he'll find the porn.

Scratch

[Barkmullz]

While Scratch is geared towards 6 - 16 year olds, it may be worth a look.

Tuxpaint

[x_hexdump_x]

Tuxpaint is the best drawing / art program for kids. I have used it with ages 3-6 to get them using mouse and keybord. It allows for simple modes so it can be tuned to the level of the user.

Qimo

[carrioki]

Qimo for Kids is a Linux distro specifically aimed at that age-group. I haven't tried it myself, but it looks cute enough. (I think it must have been featured on /. a few months ago, or how would I know about it?)

Start them young

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought my daughter (4) a netbook. She searches for her favorite shows and actresses. She can change the password so her teenage sister can't access "her laptop." I think it's great. She is very advanced in school and is well on her way to a great career in whatever she wants to do.
She has more computer knowledge than 75% of the people I work with.

Great to get them started at a young age.

Debian + DansGuardian + Gcompris, Psycache, etc

[Anonymous Coward]

My soon-to-be four year old loves her netbook. starfall.com, pbskids, and headsprout so far. Gcompris and psycache for some educational games. Have tons of other debian-edu stuff on there ready for her to discover. Like 3 or 4 different planetarium star views, a periodic table that does cool stuff. You could spend years just trying out all the different packages available in Debian. I setup Dansguardian just cuz it is was so easy.

My experience with kids and comps/games

[MikShapi]

Disclosure: I have 3 kids: a 7, 4 and 1-year-old. The first is a confirmed geek, second one is pending. The 1yo will, 10 times out of 10, find an IT device in a pile of non-devices and chew it.

Boobs don't mean squat to a 4YO (other than vague memories of food). More serious stuff does. Top things I am incredibly concerned with re early age kids and computer:

1. Teaching them to control and ward off gaming addiction. Yes, there is such a thing as gaming addiction, and it is completely not trivial to (teach them to) keep it at bay while having a life.
This is not a no-brainer when you're a gamer dad - they see me dump 300 game hours into a large-scale RPG, despite it being after their bedtime etc.
I need to minimize their exposure to ultra-violent games (Fallout, Borderlands), while focusing on games that have SOME developmental value. Spore and Civ are awesome from the moment they can read (they figure it out way faster than you'd think). Before that... I'll let other people answer.
I'm not against "non-realistic" 3D shooters and getting their competitive shooter skills up to scratch, even from 4yo, despite what my wife says, so long as it doesn't emphasize the violence too much (Unreal Tournament is marginally ok in my books, as is "Prince of Persia") (sidenote: they both do Karate and Parkour classes, so anything Parkour-related is generally liked).

The real problem comes in the form of MMOs, which, in year/grade 2 in school, everyone plays. It's lame dumb-ass web-based MMOs (Penguins and Mushy Monsters) with a multitude of flash games, but all their friends hang there, and the BIG problem is that the games are built around them NEEDING to be there to maintain their avatars more often than not, which undermines (read: DESTROYS) my ability to teach them to have a life alongside a game. So I passionately despise them and do my best to entice the kids with real games or non-gaming activities.

2. YOUTUBE. When they find the badger song, you're DONE. You can seek a good asylum at that point, and plan to come back when they're 35.
(ask me how I know).

3. Internet - I'm a believer in monitoring their usage rather than filtering it. Yes, there's a lot of nasty shit out there, and they're growing into a world where it's part of the backdrop they need to be able to contend with. From 4yo? You make that call with your own kids. I say might as well. If not at your place, they'll do it at their best mate's on a sleepover. It's not hard to find an unrestricted device nowadays. Any stuff I forbid will pull attention to itself, entice and pull them. If I don't, it'll just be "Yes, it's there, not a big deal, now where's the interesting stuff". .

Another thing that I found incredibly helpful (this was for the 7yo tho) - he got his computer in parts. He also got a paper with an OS matrix (with WinXP, Win7 and Linux), against their RAM requirements and gaming capabilities. And the CD/DVD for each. And I let them choose. Next project is to cut his wifi access on his PC, give him and old box and, if he wants networking, build his own linux wifi router.
As I share time on the first two kids with my ex-wife, they only live with me some of the time. I routinely pull bits (and break stuff) on my older son's computer, to train up his troubleshooting skills.

My 2 cents.

Re:My experience with kids and comps/games

[monkyyy]

to beat the first one get them some interesting games(world of goo, mario, any game u`ll play thats clean) should develop a gag reflux for those dumbed down games, at lest thats what i get when i see those horrid things

also BANGER BANGER BANGER

Re:My experience with kids and comps/games

[Dexter Herbivore]

2. YOUTUBE. When they find the badger song, you're DONE. You can seek a good asylum at that point, and plan to come back when they're 35. (ask me how I know).

Soooooo... how do you know?

Re:My experience with kids and comps/games

[gknoy]

When they find the badger song, you're DONE. You can seek a good asylum at that point, and plan to come back when they're 35.

Or, you can sing it with them. And then pipe "Particle Man" into their rooms while they sleep.

Re:My experience with kids and comps/games

[Anonymous Coward]

Any thoughts on Brain workshop http://brainworkshop.sourceforge.net , which is basicly memory with increasing difficulty.

Would kids enjoy that?

Re:My experience with kids and comps/games

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't believe they have Parkour classes. If anyone is interested in that activity, check out the movies: District 13 (Banlieue 13 in French) with David Belle, the guy that invented the stuff; or even the movie Yamakasi (also French) which focus on a more artful form of Parkour.

AC

Re:My experience with kids and comps/games

[MikShapi]

MUSHROOM MUSHROOM

Re:My experience with kids and comps/games

[MikShapi]

>> I can't believe they have Parkour classes.
Oh, hell they do. Indoor and outdoor, and people come in droves. I do it myself. It's good for the soul ;)

I was amazed they have very large, well instructed classes for kids (and I applaud the level of instruction - I have done Taekwondo for years and have a background in the military, so I believe I know enough to say our Parkour boys (Melbourne, Australia) have their act solidly together.

I was even more amazed that they accepted my 4yo (their official start age is 5, tho he gained his "early age" ticket in through merit).

Microsoft SteadyState

[Anonymous Coward]

For a slightly older child, I'm using Microsoft SteadyState 2.5 (as i'm using XP as well, and the linux and the wireless card in question are incompatible). I've disabled pretty much anything but pre-approved apps (I've removed any browser icons, and most of the menu), and created desktop shortcuts to any websites I allow. (I do believe you can whitelist though as well). I have a session time limit, and I Log him in when he has completed his chores/homework.

how bout a linux distro for kids?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.edubuntu.org/

edubuntu has 3 different "modes," if you will, that offer a different desktop experience based on the age of the child. and it will never really break, which is something you MIGHT encounter with windows. there are tons of different free parental control apps you could install via the software manager in an attempt to prevent the kid from looking up things you don't want him/her to see.

here are some other recommended kid centric linux distros.

http://www.brighthub.com/computing/linux/articles/43224.aspx

Tuxpaint, et al

[leamanc]

I'm redoing my Dell Inspiron Mini 10 with Ubuntu 10.10 as we speak for my 5-year-old daughter. She has had a computer of some sort ever since she was 1. Most recently she had a white MacBook which has pretty much shot craps--a process definitely helped along by being used by a preschooler for much of its life. Anyway, she's more responsible now, and the Dell netbook will be a little tougher all around.

She's had Tuxpaint on everything she's owned, be it running Linux or Mac OS X, along with a few other "Tux" things like Tuxracer, etc. They're going on there. It's also getting VirtualBox with XP so that she can play the Dora and SpongeBob games we've bought at stores. Some of these work OK with Wine, but I find it's just not worth the effort when you can virtualize Windows. OpenOffice comes by default, so that she can practice typing. I'll probably find an actual typing practice game from Synaptic too, but having had computer experience for 80% of her life, she's pretty decent with typing already.

Other than that, it's all pretty much gonna be via Chrome or Firefox. She's been on pbskids.org and nick.gom/games for a while. She's already a YouTube addict, and I'm setting up a Gmail account that I will be logging into daily. There will also be some of her favorite tunes loaded into Rhythmbox as MP3/AAC.

Long story short...a few educational things, but mostly the same things you and I use every day. Just keep an eye on the usage. If it gets to be a problem, I'll set up a DansGuardian proxy or something similar.

Odd no one has mentioned Qimo

[G]

I don't see anybody else mentioning it so I'll say that I have Qimo installed for my preschooler http://www.qimo4kids.com/ It's not perfect but it's a good start.

Re:LOLWHAT?!?! You posted your add. and #?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're not a pussy you'll post your home address so we can really call them on you. Fucking idiotic parent.

Zoodles

[Anonymous Coward]

www.zoodles.com ... Personalized educational games and videos in a kid-safe browser

I liked to run around outside at that age...

[Marurun]

I personally wouldn't "give" a four year old a computer. They should learn to use one at an early age as it helps with advancing into how to properly use it, but you wouldn't want to get them into a bad habit of never getting up and going places. Myself, I didn't actually get to use computers till I was around six because a friend had a 486 with DOS running on it. We used to play some games on it, and in most cases we fooled around with ZZT to try creating our own games. Relating to the post, I would install apps and games that allow creation and modifcation of what is on screen. Such as Roller Coaster Tycoon or something like Lego Creator(because sometimes REAL Legos are just too expensive.)

Leave Windows on it and run a Linux Live-CD

[Anonymous Coward]

Try this
http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Education-Li-f-e

It's the OpenSUSE Education Life Live-CD.
It has a few games for his age, plus with a live-cd nothing is harmed if it doesn't fit to what he likes/needs.
Also I agree with everyone else, get him out of his chair and outside.
Otherwise, occasionally a learning game. Even Windows XP had Arthur the Ardvark math, spelling etc.

Sell the netbook, get an iPad

[mveloso]

Let him learn the future, not the past.

Re:Sell the netbook, get an iPad

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, get them an information consuming device instead of one they can more readily create with.

Re:Sell the netbook, get an iPad

[anyGould]

Let him learn the future, not the past.

There is a bit of truth to this - my iPad has saved the day many a time when the munchkin is getting restless. It's a pile of boardgames, a set of stories, doodlepad, and typewriter all rolled into a nice compact form. And nothing impresses the locals like watching a 3-year-old teach a pair of 2-year-olds how to use one.

DOSBox

[suomynonAyletamitlU]

Many old DOS games weren't all that good, but some of them were. I remain a fan of Quarky and Quaysoo's Turbo Science, even though it was an educational game. Honestly, I wish it would be re-released, say for a touchscreen tablet; it'd be an ideal application.

Make sure you include

[www.sorehands.com]

Tools to do software development, photo editing, photo album management. Then they can take, edit, and modify their own picures.

Add in perl so they can start learning programming and progress into C and assembler.

Only the porn?

[manwargi]

How about avoiding the internet altogether at that age? Even if you avoid all the porn, there are still a bajillion other things to think about. The trickery and deception of the gullible and naive. The hostility and ruthlessness people so viciously unleash upon each other. the way u see this fuckin ppl right on teh interwebs!!!! Although we no longer have quite the Wild West vibe of the pioneer days these still aren't friendly streets. While I don't see the problem with a boy that small having his own computer, I think your boy's laptop should just stay off the internet, and that he should use another computer (with your supervision preferably) if you want him to learn web related stuff.

Re:LOLWHAT?!?! You posted your add. and #?!?

[nickb64]

Pretty sure that's the Vice President's residence, lol

Genius...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you get him a cellphone and facebook account while you're at it.

what?

[Anonymous Coward]

A four year old doesn't need access to a computer. Let him be a kid.

idiot

A notebook for a 4 year old?

[suprcvic]

Give him some toys and send him outside where he belongs! Kids these days have no imagination because they have technology shoved in their face from the time they can grab it.

Re:A notebook for a 4 year old?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like the last generation, and the generation before that. Technology isn't new with this generation. It's just that you grew up with the amazing technological advances that you grew up with, and thus think of them as mundane. Seriously, the telephone? Amazing! A washing machine? The most widespread robot in the world! The Microwave? The automobile? The electric light? Technology easily as amazing as anything new that have been in our faces our entire lives. Just so common that you don't appreciate them.

Re:A notebook for a 4 year old?

[suprcvic]

I wasn't playing with washing machines or microwaves when I was a kid. I was out in the woods playing army or my friends and I were outside blasting each other with our toy airplanes or playing hide and seek. We used our imagines and we got exercise. Sure, we all had Nintendos (born in 1980) but that was just a small part of our lives and we enjoyed using our imaginations far more than playing with the result of someone elses.

How about...

[sigipickl]

Maybe buy him a baseball glove or a frisbee- something to spur activity and interaction with others. If he's a tech genius, the last thing he needs is a computer- he's already mastered that.

Call your local homeless shelter or charity. Maybe they could use your netbook to get someone on their feet again.

DoudouLinux

[kafka.fr]

Try this: http://www.doudoulinux.org/web/english/

Should be OK for a 4-years-old. Two things:

• - unplug ethernet, disable wifi, bluetooth and whatever network the laptop may offer;
• - be prepared to fight sooner than later to take him outside.

Yes, that's actual real-life experience ;-)

for real?

[houbou]

The kid's 4 yrs old.. and you are asking us slashdot readers for help? Don't you have enough imagination to go to google and type "software 4 yrs old"... I'll bet you will find educational and games software, many that will be freeware too! and i'll bet the netbook doesn't need the internet to work anyway.. so load the stuff, then disable the network (might be able to do that directly at the BIOS level, lock the BIOS with a password for editing. and no more worries about boobies).

The Outdoor Program

[QuietLagoon]

Load up a program that allots him only a few hours per day on the netbook; then tells him to go outside, and play with his friends and bask in the wonderfulness of nature.

Don't show him open source

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't want your boy to grow up to be a fag, do you?

Argh. He didn't say that.

[jotaeleemeese]

He said *he* (or she) is freed up to go shopping.

He didn't say the children were left alone, did it pass through your geeky head that it may be possible for one parent to take care of children while the other goes shopping, and that maybe the one left with the children can deal with them much more easily if they have something entertaining to do?

Re:Argh. He didn't say that.

[ds_online]

no actually I hadn't considered that option. although based on the response he gave, I would wager that my assumption was correct.

Re:Argh. He didn't say that.

[tehcyder]

He said *he* (or she) is freed up to go shopping.

He didn't say the children were left alone, did it pass through your geeky head that it may be possible for one parent to take care of children while the other goes shopping, and that maybe the one left with the children can deal with them much more easily if they have something entertaining to do?

No, the natural way of reading GP's comment is that they left their kid on its own, hopefully absorbed by the computer, while they popped down the shops.

If there was another parent involved, why not say so? You are only forced to take a kid shopping if you are a parent on your own at the time.

Get of your high horse.

[jotaeleemeese]

There are children that can't be disciplined.

Consider yourself lucky for having normal children.

Ah, the wonders of rich societies.

[jotaeleemeese]

I was left uncountable times alone with my siblings (me being the oldest) from the age of 10.

Who were my evil parents?

A couple that had to break their backs working in order to see us through school and provide for us by means of their lowly paid jobs, one of them made a Masters degree on evening and weekend school, with the only purpose of getting a better paid job because it happened we were studying music, we were applying ourselves to it, and it was a bit expensive (my sister is now a professional musician, music kept my brother out of trouble, I can play one or two tunes and know more about Opera, the music genre, not the browser, that most of you will ever care to know).

We certainly had often an uncle caring for us, but it wasn't always possible, and neighbours around us had enough problems of their own so it was unlikely that they would agree to take care of us, as for paid childcare, go on , tell me that poor people can afford it so I can laugh in your face.

And why would they risk it? Simple: they knew us well and made a careful assessment of the risks and rewards.

Did anything happen to us? Yeah, one day we were watching a Japanese TV program, and it scared the shit out of us (Ultraman, old version, for some reason one of the monsters really sacred the heck out of us :-) ).

It is a real shame that nowadays people in rich countries consider evil to allow parents to decide how they raise their children, and how people jump in the the "child abuse" bandwagon with such abandon, like in the case that generated this thread, in which there is not the slightest bit of evidence that the original poster is leaving children alone, bar for the panicky reading of one of the many "do gooders" that limit their dogooding to enraged typing after a biased interpretation of a post.

Re:Ah, the wonders of rich societies.

[lacqui]

10 years old is one thing; like I said, when my eldest is 10 and has the home-alone course, she will be trusted to stay at home with her younger brother. However, the original post was regarding leaving a 4-year-old home alone. Four years is NOT enough time to be left alone in a house. A four-year-old does not know how to call for help if anything happens. A ten-year-old is.

Re:Ah, the wonders of rich societies.

[Anonymous Coward]

I was left uncountable times alone with my siblings

until they finally you guys in the woods. Haha.

Re:Ah, the wonders of rich societies.

[tehcyder]

Why is this modded insightful?

The original poster was talking about leaving a badly behaved four year old alone at home while he went shopping, not a sensible 10 year old.

Re:Ah, the wonders of rich societies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup same here, only more often than not Uncle Peder would come round and look after us. He would even chase us around the house. My, How we laffed an screamed!

Why in the name of goodness....

[jotaeleemeese]

... would you give a piano to child?

What did you say? Mozart?

Uh, never mind.

Tux Paint

[Bill Kendrick]

Being its creator, I'm a bit biased, but Tux Paint is geared towards younger kids (and it's also fun to help them play with it, if my wife and our nearly-4yo are any gauge). Run it fullscreen, and check the options to make it safer (disable or limit printing, turn off sound to keep parents sane, even an option to disable the quit button).

And yes, despite the penguin, it runs on Windows (and Mac).

Re:Tux Paint

[sammyF70]

I second tuxpaint, despite NOT being its creator ;) Although if you're at it, just install the whole GCompris suit (in which Tuxpaint integrates), as 3+ actually love it and seems to genuinely learn something from it (as long as they have some kind of adult supervision to help them).

Re:Tux Paint

[davosmith]

Yes, my 5 year old has loved playing with Tux Paint since he was 2 (and his younger sister is just as keen on it). He needed a bit of help with the mouse, at first, but now has no problems at all. He'd be playing with it all day, if I let him...

Wolfgang!

[jotaeleemeese]

Leave that shitty harpsichord of yours and go out to play with your friends!

4chan

[satuon]

A desktop shortcut to http://boards.4chan.org/b/

Check out Kiddix

[Anonymous Coward]

You should try out Kiddix. It's an open source OS designed for kids, and built from Linux. I purchased a copy from the developers when they had one of those pay what you want sales a few months ago. I have to say I was really impressed with the interface and parental controls. Everything seemed to be a bit more thought out than OS's like Edubuntu, although you will find all the standard FOSS kids apps. I just took a look at their website (kiddix.com), and they are offering the download for $10 now, which is actually less than I paid during their sale!

How about....

[jotaeleemeese]

... answering his question?

I think the poster is grown up enough to figure what is best for his children.

I find all these "what about if you do this instead" postings patronizing on the extreme.

filters and location.

[denbesten]

I recommend installing a web filter, such as http://www1.k9webprotection.com/ (commercial but free) and using the filtering categories based on the parent's personal beliefs. Also, I recommend that computers be kept in a "public" place where you can see the screen. To accomplish this, our kids' laptops do not work with wireless until they turn 18. The network jacks are in locations where we want them to use the computer. With a netbook, this is may be a bit difficult as it may not have a wired network jack.

Who do you trust more?

[jotaeleemeese]

People that have faced a similar problem to yours or people selling you stuff trying to solve that same problem?

oh look...

[Anonymous Coward]

now he wont learn anything. And not even the obvious things one learns through childhood like playing and socializing but the things you dont really realise. For example i had an older brother and we grew up in a less than affluent household. One thing I had to learn, and i mean had to, was sharing. Whatever we had, we had one of, a video game, a computer etc and we would be pissed about it but eventually it was alright. And right now im pretty thankful of it, because it taught me
1. respect other peoples feelings and needs
2. you cant have everything you ask for

Theres always time to learn a computer, theres always time to sit in a darkened room and play video games all day but give the kid a chance yes? give him a simple toy (builds imagination creativity etc) or just a social toy (checkers set?). I've seen young kids with so and so electronic device stuck to their hand. And i've always hated the way they cant take their eyes off it.

word muncher and math blaster

[Anonymous Coward]

^-- ssia

4 years is knoething on a netbook.

[luther349]

netbooks are essentially built the same. a 4year old one is probably a celeron 900mhz and 512mb of ram unless you have added more ram. even todays netbooks have weak gma card in them in terms of gaming theirs not alot of options. you can get some game to run like wow and for a kid Disney toontown will work on a gma pretty well.

how?

[Anonymous Coward]

4 year olds can't read or spell. How exactly are they going to find ANYTHING on the internet? Telepathy?

GCompris, Kidsplay ...

[sammyF70]

Install your favourite Linjux flavor and those two games. Gcompris and Kidsplay are the games my twins played from 3 years on (don't forget to grab a small mouse that fits kid's hands, possibly in some flashy colour. Touchpads are an abomination). Possibly add phun or another crayon physics clone (although that tends to be slightly over the top for 3-4 year olds at first). If you absolutely want to stick with XP (or can dual boot), grab "Creatures Village from GOG.

From my own experience with my daughters, I'd say they'll love all of those, but don't think you'll be able to put the kid in front of the netbook and then go on about your business. It is NOT a TV, and THAT is a good thing : you will have to stay near, and explain and help your kid with the games (at least at first)

Good Software

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd put a torrent version of Call of Duty Black Ops and maybe a copy of WoW....then it won't cost you much.

Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Use Mybee, an freeware Internet browser with a whitelist.

My kids love it.

Tux Paint

[spacecomputer]

It has a ton of stamps/brushes and should be easy for any 4 year old to work. You can customize what options are available, and lock it down as much as you want.

How about install nothing

[uninformedLuddite]

and let the kid be a bloody kid. He would probably rather be eating dirt and tasting caterpillars than browsing kiddyweb

Computers are good for only ONE thing !!

[systemBuilder]

I don't recommend a computer at age 4. My 4-year old jumped on our laptop screen (SXGA, a $700 repair). I mail-ordered a new screen from Malaysia and repaired it myself (cost: $240).

At age four, I highly recommend www.headsprout.com. My kids went through it and then began to REALLY AND TRULY READ. We gave them NO COMPUTER = NO TV = NO VIDEO GAMES, and by 2nd grade, they were reading 30,000 pages per year. That's what NO COMPUTER will do to your kid ==> Make them more engaged in reading and that will make them smarter !!!

Family Friendly Games (Sierra, LucasArts, etc)

[cryoknight]

Put some games on the computer that you can play together with them.

When my sister and I were kids, we'd sit with Mom at the computer and play through the King's Quests, Space Quests, and even Leisure Suit Larry 2 & 3.
That was loads of fun, and we all got to pitch in ideas for stuff to do. Granted, I think I was closer to 7 or 8 when we started with those.

Dad was more into Dungeons of Daggorath :)

He still remembers how to play it today, and he's not a computer guy at all.

http://www.abandonia.com/

Original thought responded too

[Anonymous Coward]

Tend to disagree, you still have input, processing, storage, and output. That has not changed in decades. if for some reason something gets messed up by the user then it is not such a loss. Besides, you can always get the fancier toys later. Depending on the hardware, Reactos might be a good choice as it is free and it will run a lot of mswindows freeware. It also has a much smaller footprint than linux. I love linux, but you have to be reaistic with older equipment if you do not know the specs. Most any linux distro will have the have available programs as does Edubuntu. Edubuntu is just Ubuntu with some extra packages. You can easily convert ubuntu, kubuntu and the like to edubuntu quite easily.

Personally, I would prefer to let a child use an open system than be locked into a proprietary system where they can not experiment and learn on their own. All the things you talk about can be done with most any os. I would not let a four year old take a portable computing device on their own without some kind of supervision. If for no other reason for their own safety from bullies.

There is a lot of free software to proxy connections to weed out the internet garbage..

Your choice

[Anonymous Coward]

You could just install edubuntu and get everything a four year old needs to have fun.

Or, you could install strip poker and set the background to goatse if you want to keep Windows on the box. After all sooner or later the Windows machine will be loaded with porn anyhow so you may as well cut to the chase.

Re:LOLWHAT?!?! You posted your add. and #?!?

[droopus]

You guys never fail to amaze me. That question is at the level of "where's the any key?"

If the netbook is still running Windows

[d6]

Timon and Pumbaa's typing game. It's a good typing tutor and fun enough to fit in the "game" headspace.

Don't do it :)

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing. Don't get him hooked to electronic devices until he has a real reason to use one.

Screwdrivers

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

Says the man who has a whole type of screwdriver named after him.

Some alternatives

[pinkushun]

Maybe even try some of these, who knows you might even learn something new and exciting!

http://www.qimo4kids.com/page/What-is-Qimo.aspx

http://hubpages.com/hub/Linux-for-your-kids

Your child will search Porn than read Slashdot.

[Anonymous Coward]

Specifically, your child will search for Child Porn. Then we s/he is arrested and put in-front of the judge, your child will be proven to be a Pederast for having any kind of *attraction* to other naked children of similar age or youth.

That's why I didn't date anyone back when I was under 13 years old: I was afraid they would label me a weirdo like your child. Then again, I got picked-on alot, and this same double-standard is what is reflected by COPS and Attornies that look at CP all day in their evidence repositories and use to prosecute others as a throw-weapon. They're the same that post such on websites they hate, like 4Chan. That's how all the most violent and disturbing CP spreads: COPS and Attornies, because only they have access to it and they use it as a weapon against random people they don't like.

r u nuts?

[tjanke]

Speaking as a software engineer, a 4 year old should not have a computer. Not even the 'learning' kind. Period. He should have toy trucks and cars, and a wiffle-ball set, and legos and such, and be outside playing in the dirt and the mud puddles. Get him a computer when he's 15, plus or minus a year, depending on maturity. He doesn't need one before then.

Hope you see this list: what to load for a 4yr old

[waynemcdougall]

I've refurbished dozens of business computers for kindergartens, families and senior citizens that can't afford a computer.

Install the latest version of Ubuntu. If you absolutely have to run a Windows app that just won't work under Wine, use VirtualBox.

Don't let your preconception limit the children. I've seen competent use of Blender at 8, Impress at 6, and GIMP and OpenOffice at 4. Without any guidance from adults. It doesn't hurt to have an app available.

For preschoolers my set is:
sudo aptitude -y install wine unzip
sudo aptitude -y install kstars
sudo aptitude -y install gcompris kolourpaint kolourpaint4 kig ktouch kalzium ktuberling atomix kanagram khangman tuxmath xaos tuxtype parley-kde4
sudo aptitude -y install parley parley-kde4
sudo aptitude -y install dia-gnome
sudo aptitude -y install gpaint scribus kwordquiz marble step sudo aptitude -y install rhythmbox kino tuxpaint gimp gthumb inkscape totem
sudo aptitude -y install armagetronad epiphany lbreakout2 powermanga rafkill ri-li frozen-bubble gnome-games freeciv-client-sdl gnome-terminal pingus supertux-stable

If your video card supports them (it almost certainly will), consider some of these - I haven't evaluated them for suitability for K4, as the machines I get are much older and less powerful:
# sudo aptitude install stellarium flightgear chromium btanks extremetuxracer fretsonfire neverball nexuiz openarena planetpenguin-racer rrootage supertuxkart tremulous warsow xmoto smc torcs glest vegastrike warzone2100 scorched3d supertux

The above list hasn't been updated since March 2009, I'm mostly dealing with school age children. For them I use the following, althought this is also the set my 4 year old daughter has been completely comfortable exploring and using:

Apps:
sudo apt-get -y install wine evolution unzip vlc ubuntu-restricted-extras gtk-recordmydesktop sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread4/install-css.sh

Education:
sudo apt-get -y install kturtle gcompris xmaxima kolourpaint4 kbruch kig ktouch kpercentage kmplot kalzium ktuberling atomix kanagram khangman tuxmath xaos tuxtype parley-kde4 xiphos
sudo apt-get -y install parley parley-kde4
sudo apt-get -y install dia-gnome
sudo apt-get -y install qcad gpaint scribus kwordquiz marble step
sudo apt-get -y install sofastatistics
sudo apt-get -y install kolourpaint
sudo apt-get -y install kstars

Games:
sudo apt-get -y install armagetronad atanks blobwars epiphany lbreakout2 powermanga rafkill ri-li uqm frozen-bubble gnome-games wesnoth freeciv-client-sdl gnome-terminal glob2 pingus beneath-a-steel-sky wormux supertux-stable
sudo apt-get -y install freecol sun-java6-bin

Multimedia:
sudo apt-get -y install rhythmbox kino tuxpaint gimp gthumb inkscape totem blender pitivi openshot

And with a powerful enough graphic card:
sudo apt-get -y install stellarium flightgear chromium btanks extremetuxracer fretsonfire neverball nexuiz openarena
sudo apt-get -y install planetpenguin-racer vegastrike
sudo apt-get -y install rrootage supertuxkart tremulous warsow xmoto smc torcs glest warzone2100 scorched3d supertux

My full set fits in 20 Gb. I have a remove list when I need to fit into 10Gb drives. I welcome any additions to the list.

I found it surprisingly difficult to find a comprehensive list of games and educational softwatre for young people on Linux. I hope my list helps someone. This list is in addition to the software that comes with a standard desktop install of Ubuntu. I don't use Edubuntu. I thought their extra software choices were paltry and that anyone could do much better. I think I have.

Wow!! how American

[LostMyBeaver]

My kids are now 7 and 8 years old. They've had PC's setup to watch cartoons on in bed via Windows Media Center since the age of 2. We bought some Xbox 360 Controllers for Windows and for games, the kids play the Lego games (star wars, harry potter, ...) and my son as of late does a lot of surfing youtube for pokemon and video games stuff.

My wife wanted the kids to come in and cuddle a little before we woke up yesterday, but I asked her to give me a minute to get some underwear on since I think it's about time we start covering up at least a little more in the mornings. At least covering our lower privates. She agreed that it's getting a little odd. But in reality, the kids don't notice or care, in reality it's for our comfort as opposed to theirs now.

We still share showers and baths with the kids. It's no different then after swimming class when we're showering with the kids in the locker room. It's strictly a means of getting clean.

I am an American by birth and upbringing, but my entire adult life has been spent in Europe. So, in reality, I don't see myself as an American adult, though the fact that I still look away when a woman is breast feeding at a table at a coffee shop shows I'm not very European either. I'm really caught somewhere in-between.

Once I visited my parents in Florida and my sister and her kids were there, all the kids were between 2 and 5 years old. And when my mother suggested that my sister's daughter (age 3 at the time) was going to take a bath, I asked my son if he wanted to as well (he was 4) and immediately all the adults there (other than my wife and me) nearly panicked and stuttered out "Oh no. Not in this house!". So, my son had to wait his turn now that his hopes had been brought up that he'd get to play with the bubbles.

Well all that being said. I like the European way better. Kids don't think anything of nudity. They certainly don't understand sex, but generally they're not even concerned by it. If your kid Googles and ends up on a hardcore porn site, he/she will probably be on a different site in 10 seconds anyway. If they ask the question "what are they doing". Answer it responsibly with a "It's an odd thing big people do sometimes. Children aren't equipped for that". And gracefully move on. Don't show panic. Don't make it unnatural. If any damage were to come from this experience, it would be your behavior turning it into something more than it is.

As stuff for a 4 year old. Well, I'll say that things like Reader Rabbit are great. Learning games are fun for them. They seem lame to us, but games with songs and learning are great. For a bonus, if the Lego games will run on the netbook. I highly recommend them.

Dad? WasRe:My experience with kids and comps/games

[Anonymous Coward]

Dad, is that you? Stay out of my computer!

Nothing...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you even get them a netbook? Teach them the real world. They will be ready for a computer, when you can trust them with your own gear, not before.

Starlogo TNG

[xtracto]

StarLogo TNG, being one of the successors of the LOGO language, StarLogo TNG provides an easy and fun environment to learn about "programming" by using graphical "building blocks" (akin to Lego) to create a program.

Plus, it makes is very easy to populate simple 3D worlds with "agents".

dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

who cares what apps are on it - at 4 its considered an accomplishment if you can spell your first name

Software?

[zaivala]

Why don't you just load the OLPC OS onto it? That's freely available, geared for kids, and probably has good parental controls (or no need for them).

Be involved in how that netbook is used

[lexidation]

...and it can be quite a good tool.

We got our 5-year-old daughter a computer last Christmas. She was always pretty facile with other people's computers -- at age 3, she was already capable of hooking multiple parties up on a Skype call, leaving them to wonder why the hell they were all having this conversation -- so when her fifth Christmas came, we figured it was time.

I second the people who've said not to worry about porn -- it basically has no meaning to her and she's never once gotten to a porn page by mistake anyway. If she does, well, you just say "they're having sex" and that'll pretty much be the end of it (provided it's not double self-penetration with a two-headed dildo or something, then you might have a little more explaining to do). The real danger is letting the netbook turn into a youtube cartoon factory. We don't have a TV, so the temptation is great.

But the netbook's been very good in a lot of ways. She knows how to do a search for stuff she wants to find out about -- even if she usually needs help to read results that are over her level. She definitely learns a lot from using the 'image' option on google. The computer's helped her reading, helped her math (there are a jillion sites for kids). She's been drawing using computers (other people's :-) for a long time, using Artweaver, among other programs. And lately, I'm beginning to teach her to do some very simple programming herself using Processing, which lets her create simple animations in literally two or three lines of code.

So don't be afraid to give a kid a computer. It's what they do with it that counts and with a little involvement from you, there are lots of good things that can be done, even at that age.

Re:Be involved in how that netbook is used

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just a test to see if the parent comment will magically reappear from the Phantom Zone...

Swap the Netbook for an iPod touch

[torklugnutz]

I've been pondering this very thing, but I'm opting to wait for the iPad 2 since I don't already have a netbook sitting around.

If I did, I'd keep it really simple:
1. Cloud Antivirus or something else lightweight and adequate
2. Chrome
3. Skype for video chat with the grandparents, if applicable. Plus, it promotes pan-generational computer literacy

Mostly, I'm just going to use it to play movies/hulu/netflix on the go. I spend a lot of time in the car with my 3 year old, and it's the most productive use of her time in that scenario. Since your nephew can read, there's a lot of other interesting potential. Someone mentioned Edubuntu. I'd say just get him Oregon Trail. Or Craigslist the netbook and get him an iPod Touch.

Protect him until College?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you seriously intending on torturing him with XP UNTIL he's in COLLEGE? That's like what, 14 years?!

Unless you capture their traffic and look at it...

[RichiH]

At least, that is what you think.

My dad used to take away my keyboard when I spent too much time at the computer. At first, I just searched the house until I found the keyboard, but he started to take it with him. I wisened up, changed the BIOS so it would not stop on keyboard errors, modified my AUTOEXEC.BAT so Norton Commander got started and continued to "program" my batch files with my mouse by copy and pasting single letters from a reference line I typed while I had the keyboard.

True story.

Also, when I was older, the Internet was a myth. A solid myth, but no one I knew directly had access to it. But with the help of BBS and pooled pocket money, the one guy who had a CD-ROM drive loaded the CD-Rs with warez and porn we bought from the USA and redistributed them locally.

The point? Don't be so sure that they can't bypass your proxy. They have tits & gore for motivation, after all.

Re:LOLWHAT?!?! You posted your add. and #?!?

[TangoMargarine]

Seconded. A whoosh, sarcasm, a malicious prank, and a challenge to his manhood - this has it all!

Tux Paint

[Anonymous Coward]

My 5-year-old daughter loves Tux Paint. I think she started using it when she was four. However, I wouldn't encourage a child to play with a computer rather than with pen and paper.

I'd prefer her to read a book, write a story, or play a musical instrument, but anything that keeps her quiet for a bit and stops her from smashing things is good.

Tuxpaint

[Anonymous Coward]

A real winner that has kept my kids busy for ages and flattened many a toner cartridge :)

Scrap Winblows, go with Ubuntu

[MyJobSux]

If you really want some control over the kid, start with loading Ubuntu on the netbook. Next create an OpenDNS acct and set up the DNS on the netbook to use OpenDNS's servers. You can filter what type of content the kid can hit. Next, don't give out the root password, then he cant sudo anything. One of three things will eventually happen, the kid will conform to your security mold and just live with it, will hate it and rebel by simply not using it anymore or will figure out how to hack it or reinstall Ubuntu and do whatever he wants. In any case, XP will require more administration by the user than a 4yr old should probably have to worry about. That said, kids are brilliant. The minds of younger children are begging to learn and absorb about everything so don't be surprised if the kid surpasses you in a few weeks or months.

deserves an "informative" moderation

[AliasMarlowe]

I have no mod points left - spent them all yesterday...

Re:deserves an "informative" moderation

[eleuthero]

amazing - someone who had mod points could have modded the parent informative and instead chose to waste points making you redundant. He'll probably come back and do the same to me (or else mark me flame bait). Hurrah.

Go with teaching tools, teaching games.

[Dputiger]

I don't want to come off as a Luddite but I'm wary of introducing technology that young. I know there's a significant body of evidence that very young children should watch an absolute minimum of TV; many of the useful sites mentioned (like YouTube) essentially duplicate a TV experience.

With that said, I'd recommend websites that cater to his desire to figure things out or explore how things work. I'm thinking of games like Crayon Physics, the original Lemmings, or The Incredible Machine. (You can find info on that old title on Wikipedia; I don't know if there are similar modern games. Tetris and a Lego-like building game might also be worth looking at.

I think a system he can do things with will be a lot more useful.

This is what I have loaded on my daughter's laptop

[Slackenerny]

My daughter is four and a half and I have an old work laptop built up for her. She's got some good mousing skills and scored an OCD ranking in one World of Goo level while I was doing the washing up.

Anyway....I've scoured around trying to find good content and have a good list. Steer clear of all the Disney and other commerical stuff, that stuff will rot their brains. It's also badly coded and mainly a vehicle to advertise to the kids.

This is what I have installed on her laptop. They are all links to flash sites as almost all good kids stuff is on-line now. Anything that you have to install probably lists Windows ME as the system requirement on the box:

1) Poisson Rouge (http://www.poissonrouge.com/) - This is a French/English flash site with has no instructions and just encourages the child to explore the pages and work out what to do. It's probably the best site on-line for the 3-5 age group.

2) Boowah & Kwala (http://boowakwala.uptoten.com/) - This is another French/English site originally made by a husband and wife for their daughter and has grown from there. It's more instructional in its activities, but has an enormous amount of content delivered in a great way. The two main characters (see the names) are voiced by the parents and are very funny.

3) Sesame Street (http://www.sesamestreet.org/) - This one is a no-brainer...they have a great variety of games for different ages.

4) StarFall (http://www.starfall.com/) – A reading site that runs from letter recognition all the way to full reading. It’s got some very fun stuff in it.

5) WordWorld (http://pbskids.org/wordworld/index_flash.html) – A very rich and interactive reading site with lots of fun characters made out of letters.

Enjoy!

FFS he can't read!

[Anonymous Coward]

he can't read you retard. fuckin retarded geeks..

Qimo 4 Kids

[lmastrod]

I installed Qimo for kids on an old Acert TM 660. It's OK. It comes with tuxpaint and other stuff for kids. In addition you can install OpenOffice for kids and get some flash games. Try.

Favourites

[Anonymous Coward]

My 4 year old loves www.poissonrouge.com (site is French, but is well usable for English speaking kids) and tuxpaint.

Re-post?

[houghi]

Do we have to have a separate post for every age that comes along and that asks what to install for a kid of age X? Or is Google broken?

Download a bunch of stuff for your stuff, see if it is age-apropriate and then see if (s)he likes it.
Well, perhaps he does not like the Netbook at all.

In my time I got a stick to play with and I had to carve it myself and I better liked it.
Now get of my lawn.

Qimo

[adycarter]

My daughter (6) LOVES http://www.qimo4kids.com/

Its really nice and can be ran self contained via USB

For that age group

[Anonymous Coward]

Kiddie porn

Lead by example

[HerbieStone]

If you lead, you must lead by example. If you don't go outside, you can't expect your kid will.

I've got a kid on my own. When I play his childish games with him, I'm often a little bored. But WTF it's his time he's spending with me and I *will* play his games anyway as long as he thinks it's fun to him. I'm proud he wants to spend time with me. Soon enough he will be too old for this and he will think that everything I'm doing is wrong and stupid.

Hiding and Chasing each other around is one of the more fun things to do btw.

Creative tools!

[Joshua Fan]

Start with getting him a tablet like the Bamboo Pen & Touch and let him go crazy on ArtRage. You'll definitely get your money's worth in saved paper, crayons, and stained walls. Or get him started on 3D modeling with Anim8or, an absurdly easy and free program to get into, and then later follow an introduction to real LEGOs with MLCad.

There are also kid's programming languages, which help prevent kids from seeing computers as "magic devices". Popular examples that use a visual drag-and-drop method are Alice and Scratch.

I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

You give a 4 years old a netbook and then you want to "protect" him?

The best way to "protect" a children is to educate him, it is called internal motivation instead of external. He should now about sex before their mates do, and you should advise him-her about the rules, what you expect from him, and why.

You need to trust him-her if you give him a tool. When I was a kid I knew what a vagina was, how women looked unclothed(I visited naturalist beaches with my family), how children were done, what fucking was, and you know what? I didn't care about it until much later in life. I didn't masturbate(there are kids that masturbate since they are born, a significant portion learn on 4-5 years on, but the vast majority start masturbating from 11-12-13 on) because I had no sexual desire, I just was interested on other things, I loved girls but not in a sexual way yet.

You need to talk him-her about friends on the net and so on, way more dangerous than porn, and put clear rules here too.

If you put walls on there, he-she is going to break them without you noticing(false sense of security), four years old are not stupid and they love to discover, they love to see what is hidden from them, you will be adding a forbidden gusto if not at 4 years some years later.

I will never give a netbook to a kid, through, I want my four year old to get out, jump, run, play, meet friends and get mud dirty before getting in front of a computer, but if I give her a computer, I will trust him-her fully, if she is not mature enough I won't until she is.

Re:Unless you capture their traffic and look at it

[PaKL]

The point? Don't be so sure that they can't bypass your proxy. They have tits & gore for motivation, after all.

So very very true. Nothing like a little "hot blooded" motivation eh? LOL

If they do manage to bypass it I think perhaps I might be more proud of that achievement than I would be upset. :D

Attempts to get to "filtered" sites are logged but I don't check them with any frequency, I guess I rely on the complaints of being unable to get to sites as my guide to its effectiveness.
After all I'm not a complete bastard :P

XP Setup for 5 yr. Old

[metasepp]

Ok here is the setup i used for my Kids:

Old XP Box:
For Windows
Comodo Firewall
Avira Free AV
Firefox (Sesamestreet.com as Homepage)
Thunderbird

Games (To Start)
GCompris
Scummvm (Get Putt and Freddy Fish in Ebay)
Kidsplay
Old Sesame Street Games

Hope this gives you some Ideas.

Greets

Metasepp

Re:Unless you capture their traffic and look at it

[RichiH]

> If they do manage to bypass it I think perhaps I might be more proud of that achievement than I would be upset. :D

That's the correct reaction, yes :)

Re:Unless you capture their traffic and look at it

[RichiH]

> I guess I rely on the complaints of being unable to get to sites as my guide to its effectiveness.

PS: I complained about the lack of keyboard, as well. I wasn't stupid; neither are your kids (presumably).

Toddlers can use pcs, too

[teachknowlegy]

It appears you all really suck at parenting. My son has had several computers, including pcs. They are loaded with educational games, restricted access, and teaching tools. My son has been able to demonstrate the ability to navigate the computer better than his peers, who *are learning to do so under the sponsorship of public schools in kindergarten*. I'd rather teach him myself before someone who is computer illiterate pollutes his knowledge of the things.

Re:Unless you capture their traffic and look at it

[PaKL]

I wasn't stupid; neither are your kids (presumably)

Ah no they are not, sometimes I think they are a little too cocky though :P

Perhaps a little back on topic, I used to work in sales for a computer shop, selling software as well as hardware.
I brought my boys up on your run of the mill "children's" PC games and really they are a hit and miss affair.

One notable hit that I'll always recall was a game staring Elmo. I believe that game was the success it was only due to the fact my eldest liked Elmo and had a few stuffed Elmo toys.
Perhaps one key then is to provide software on their computers that they can relate to in real life, like my boy did with Elmo.
Just a thought.

Don't ask me to relate that to proxy servers though :D

Re:Hope you see this list: what to load for a 4yr

[Anonymous Coward]

cube2-sauerbraten might be a pretty good addition because of in-game map building mode. just disable the blood, use the nicer player models.

Windows Live Family Safety

[IceFreak2000]

My kids have Windows Live Family Safety installed on the PC that they have access to; I can remotely deny or allow access to websites and check their browsing behaviour no matter if they're using IE, FireFox or Chrome. I can even use it to restrict how much time they're spending playing games - although their machine is in the front room where both my wife and I can see what they're up to - and all Messenger friend requests have to be vetted by me.

It's not that I don't trust my kids - I do - but I don't trust the wider internet, and they're simply too young to be given unfettered access.

Learning Ladder

[DrXym]

This might be UK centric, but there is a pretty cool set of educational apps called Learning Ladder. The preschool version has hundreds of games in it and doesn't require literacy skills. Later versions add numeracy, literacy etc and generally correspond to their school curriculum. Biggest criticism of it is that it's getting on a bit in years and the runtime uses some ancient version of Quicktime.

Another potential offering is Magic Desktop which is best described as Windows for Kids and has games, puzzles, internet browser etc. You can't quit from it without knowing the password, so you could set up an account for the kid which launches straight into it and lets them browse but restricts the sites they can visit.

Plenty of Live Disc Distros

[flyneye]

Theres plenty of live disk distros aimed at kids. It's a live disk so they can't screw anything up to speak of.
Wipe the hd and put a swap and storage file system on it, load up a disk and let him/her begin their IT adventure.

Cybersitter

[Anonymous Coward]

When my kids were young I just installed Cybersitter and let them get on with it, but maybe you could try that AND a desktop overlay such as Magic Desktop.

Re:LOLWHAT?!?! You posted your add. and #?!?

[Lazy Jones]

People here are all talk

Wait till you meet some 4chan folks, some of whom are probably reading this right now.

JUST DONT!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, you shouldn't at all. I have a 4 year old and they are still have a lot to learn and computers actually dont help at all. Get him a bicycle, books whatever .. but no TV or computers(youtube is tv... ) ... once the kid can read. There you go! But for now
JUST DONT! They need to be with kids and play lego roleplay on their own ...

[drastic]Bottom line the netbook will be used for passive media consumption and you will steer him towards couch potatoe.. [/drastic]

Using content filtering DNS is ideal for a child

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a company that would be ideal to look at, called OpenDNS. With using there content filtering and simple setup on your pc/mac running whatever OS you like. You will have much more control of the content that is even allowed in to the computer.
Smart planning with using web browsers and OS's that limit getting infected is always a help.

It's nice to get a 4 year old to learn this, but at the same time, more knowledge for your child to soon, can make them grow up to fast. Like a good wine, it's maybe better to let your child age naturally. Either way, spending time with your child is key, how you do it, that is what is subject to debate. Indoor, outdoors, in the dirt, or on the keyboard. your guess is good as mine.

games

[Anonymous Coward]

My 3-year-old nephew cant get enough of Spore. He goes to town with the Creature Creator. He's also a big fan of Off-Road Raptor Safari.

Qimo 4 Kids suits 3 to 12 yr olds

[donak]

It's at: http://www.qimo4kids.com/
Based on Xubuntu, but simply boots into a kid friendly environment with lots of games, paint programs, educational programs etc.
When the kid takes an interest it's possible to back out and log into the normal Xubuntu desktop.

put the netbook in the trash

[el papa malo]

throw the netbook away. buy him books, puzzles, games, cards, legos, a football, baseball, basketball, a jump rope, etc. Make him active, let him explore things that require movement, interaction. he'll benefit much more from those than the netbook

computer is no good for 4y kids...

[Anonymous Coward]

quoting the OLPC ...
http://laptop.org/en/vision/essays/35-tablet.shtml

"1. Focus on children 6 to 12 years old. They are your nation’s most precious natural resource. For primary school children, the tablet is not about computing or school, it is about hope. It makes passion the primary tool for learning. "

4 is too young... for any computing device... wait till he can at least --- sort of --- read ...

get him a cowboy costume, (for her definetly some fairy wings) and you will NEVER be forgotten... if he has the gene he will make use of it anyway... its no good for kindergarten kids...

remember ! they can not read or write!

tuxpaint

[Ragica]

My kids (3 and 5) love, love, love, love, love TuxPaint... they run it on Linux, but I see it's available for Windows as well. They also deeply love StarFall -- which just requires a web browser and flash.

A netbook? At four?

[dwillden]

Tape a map and instructions on how to go outside and play on the screen and recycle the internal components. The kid will be much better off for it. Let him learn an internet addiction when he's a little older. My 4 year old, has one game we've introduced him to that he can play on occasions. Otherwise he isn't on the computer and certainly not alone. He can watch TV or better play outside or with his younger brothers.

Net Nanny and Kidzui

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to run Windows if you don't want to spend all your time replicating what these 2 products already do at a very reasonable price. Net Nanny makes sure that they only go where you let them at the times that you deem appropriate as well as monitor chats and social sites as they get older. Kidzui is a really great kid's web browser that already takes them to all the good kids stuff on the web.

Re:Net Nanny and Kidzui

[joejgarcia]

for some reason this got posted anon. Reposted under my account below.

A Game Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

My father had one of the old DOS menu-based interfaces on our machine growing up. In what may be seen as a cruel joke, the top entry in the "Games" menu was a typing tutor. May be one of the greatest things he ever did.

Kids Menu!

[bradpeczka]

Check out http://glob.com.au/kidsmenu/ It's a replacement shell for Windows that removes the nasty stuff and leaves only apps that you select and configure. :-)

playhousedisney.com

[axl917]

A 4 yr old will be enthralled for hours there.

Young kids on computers

[DQKennard]

It's interesting that a slashdot comment crowd has so many people apparently against any sort of computer use by a four year old, hence their suggestions of baseballs, crayons and other off-topic ideas. I think I'll assume the original poster was really just looking for ...well... what he asked for. I'm just guessing here, but it seems likely that the uncle doesn't have in mind a computer as something to take over the nephew's life, even if the kid's parents went along with such an idea. To the anti-computer crowd: there are indeed applications and even net content appropriate to very young children. A four year old is already past the recommended age for some. As far as protecting a young child from the net's nastiness, there were some good suggestions in this stream. I will say, though, that some bad stuff -- even some very bad stuff -- would just go so far over the head of a child that young that it might not be that big of a deal. I wouldn't want a child to see it, but I probably wouldn't be afraid of life-long trauma, either. It's the 8-10 year olds that can be a problem. They're more likely to come across the bad stuff, and more likely to understand it at least at a rudimentary level, but not ready to appropriately see it. This isn't just porn 'n stuff. Shakespeare sex comedies aren't necessarily right for a nine year old. It'll go right over the head of a 5 year old, and it's fine for a twelve year old, but a nine year old "gets" it, and probably shouldn't.

Windows 7

[TheNetAvenger]

1) Far less expose to malware when they start going online for games.
2) More controls and monitoring and filters that makes it family friendly is built in.
3) Faster if the netbook has 1gb of RAM.

This way you can approve online children gaming sites without much worry and without keeping them offline.

Antivirus and anti-malware

[Anonymous Coward]

Spybot S&D, Ad-Aware, Malwarebytes Anti-Malware, and the anti-virus of your choice. Then, google "hosts", download the hosts file which blocks a lot of viruses, after that apply spybot's immunization to block even more.

I'd install Gentoo on that netbook...

[the saltydog]

By the time it compiles, he'll be 18, and you can kick him out of the house - score!

Net Nanny and Kidzui

[joejgarcia]

You need to run Windows if you don't want to spend all your time replicating what these 2 products already do at a very reasonable price. Net Nanny makes sure that they only go where you let them at the times that you deem appropriate as well as monitor chats and social sites as they get older. Kidzui is a really great kid's web browser that already takes them to all the good kids stuff on the web.

GIve him Scratch

[BenoitGirard]

Give him MIT's Scratch! Definitely. http://scratch.mit.edu/

Europa Universalis III (For 8yr olds)

[Mastadex]

I had an idea while reading this. There is a (mostly) historically accurate game called Europa Universalis III. Though it is too complex for a 4yr old to handle, it is suitable for 8+ year olds. I also pointed them to wikipedia if he had questions. I was astounded to find that the kid played the game for an extended period of time but also followed up on the history of Europe on wikipedia. The last time I talked with him, he told me all about the Polish-Lithuenian common wealth, and how vassalization works. Albeit his knowledge was skewed towards the strategies of the game, it was still accurate. It definitely made his Polish grandfather happy.

Kidzui is pretty good

[klnssnyder]

Big fan of KidZui - works with FF and IE, I would configure the kid's account to run it on login, it's has millions of whitelisted sites, youtube videos, all sorts of games... I have 6 year old twins (boy - girl) and a 10 year old daughter, and they all find stuff to do there. Of course, the older girl is starting to wander off KidZui, that will be a different challenge. It's all about redirection...

Tiny Planets...

[Sam Nitzberg]

There is a show in the UK, and some stations used to get it here (in the US) called "Tiny Planets."

For kids, this is / was a great show - it centered around two nice aliens and their experiences with objects (spacial and music-related), playing nicely, taking care of oneself, etc.

There was also a website with Tiny-Planets related games online (please take a look for it), downloadable coloring pages, and more.
You can also get Tiny Planets DVDs.

Anyway, anything associated with Tiny Planets I'd strongly recommend, and I think you child is at about the right age to enjoy it.

Best regards,

Sam

PS - I only have a minute or I'd dig up the links. My apologies for not providing more details.

What to load.

[bmearns]

gcc and gdb. It's never too soon to start hacking.

Edubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

My son, now 6, forced me to create his own account on XP by the time he was 36 months.
Shortly after that, XP started into a terminal death spiral.
Before completely trashing the older hardware, I tried out Ubuntu, and I have been extremely happy. Not only are there a large number of free educational software bundles, he can no longer make system level random changes without my Admin password.
With OpenDNS as the router's configured name server, I also haven't had any problems with the Pr0n.
Now if only he had never heard of Lady Gaga, I'd be just flippin' fine.

Re:"Won't do a thing"

[TaoPhoenix]

"So you say they're navel gazing"?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=3450+Massachusetts+Avenue

Brilliant really.

As a father of a 4 year old.

[Anonymous Coward]

I found almost all the answers here utterly stupid. I hang my head low in shame over the idiocy of nerd-dom.

My son has been using the computer since he was 3 years old. He is now 4. He is still the fastest kid running around on the playground. He is the only kid able to catch a baseball with his own hands, hit a thrown plastic softball out of the air with a bat, and kick a ball with accurate aim. Putting him in front of a computer did not turn him into a vegetable.

What the computer did do is help him learn how to read. He is the only 4 years old kid around here who can read at all, and he reads at 2nd grade level (i.e. no problem at all with early readers, and can read standard children's books). He can write sentances. He can add, subtract, count to 100 without help and read numbers into thousands.

He has his own account, but has 'hacked' into his mother's by sitting on her lap while she was accessing her account and memorizing her password. Anyway, now that I have asserted my bona fides, and insulted the people who needed to be insulted (y'all deserve harsher), I will list my advice:

Although I could do it just as well on a Linux machine, I am using Windows (Vista and 7). My son has his account set up with everything under lock down. He has a series of one click icons. The items loaded in his account are Hooked on Phonics Letters, Math, a couple of Flash math and puzzle games. I also put several Pixar videos as candy. He has access to Firefox, but there are only two domain level addresses he can surf easily. One is 'PBS Kids' the other is 'StarFall' Plus. There are some very specific addresses in youtube (some seseme street, music video and pixar vids), and some access to the k12 assesment modules. That's it. If he wants anything else, he has to come to me.

We do browse a lot together. Night before last, he wanted to learn about air and helium. We spent time browing youtube clips, watching web animations about air, and exploring different concepts. We did practical experiments like blowing up a balloon with warm air and measuring it and then sticking it a freezer and measuring it. It makes answering the "why" questions so much easier. With the help of Google, I can literally outlast his why question even if he goes at it for hours.

Plus, seeing people doing atheletics or stunts makes him more motivated to try and learn how to do them when we go outside. I tried to get him to learn how to hit a ball without having shown him fun baseball related videos and he lost interest after a few minutes. One episode of 'Arthur' focusing on baseball and he spent 2 hours trying and trying until he finally got it right. Cars is the main reason he can run so fast. He is obsessed with winning the race. I happen to think TVs and computers are the greatest parenting tools ever invented.

Use Qimo a Linux for kids

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.qimo4kids.com/ Qimo is a customized Linux distro for kids.

our setup

[MichaelKVance]

I have a Dell Mini 9 running Ubuntu that I gave to my six year old to play with/break. On top of the usual install it's got ktuberling (mr. potato head), gcompris, and tuxpaint on it, those three keep her and our three year old amused for a bit. They've learned excellent trackpad skills, know how to user switch, type in passwords, type in words for games, play various elementary games, etc.

Maybe this might be what you are looking for

[chucklebutte]

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick

My daughters are not quite at the age to use this yet, but I fully intend on using/trying it out with them. If all else fails just any debian based distro with the basics should do.

Install "Kidoz"

[n5yat]

Install "Kidoz" - a kid friendly front end to the internet. http://kidoz.net/plus/index.html

To the haters:

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Don't you guys have winter where you live? The advice to get "a fishing pole instead" is cute when it's 15F outside. See, I know that cause I live in the real world, informed by more than the life of a single male in California.

Especially when this advice is coming from folks that are, point of fact, not fishing themselves but are posting on Slashdot. What a bunch of pretentious fucks.

Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Install a bare bones Linux distro with applications that have to be compiled from source, tell him to figure it out himself. By the time he learns how to use it, he will probably be old enough to watch pr0n.

4-yr olds Need the Gcompris Package!

[sgarrigan]

Several posters have replied with "Gcompris," but they're buried in unmodded Hell. Seriously, the Gcompris package (http://gcompris.net/-en-) is perfect for 3-to-10 year olds. It includes about 80 games that are both fun and educational. EASY interface with no pull-down menus so fine motor control isn't needed. It works well on Windows and Linux, and it's been spreading around the world for years. If Slashdotter have children (a rarity?), they need to know about this collection that will keep a 4-year old occupied, entertained, and learning for hours. Among the 80 apps are some that are purely creative (drawing, etc), musical, sciency (real word?), and even school-related math

Re:4-yr olds Need the Gcompris Package!

[tehcyder]

As a matter of interest, according to Wikipedia the Windows and Mac versions are crippleware.

Just install a browser

[mr1911]

pbskids.org
thomasandfriends.com

Keep the computer in the shared family room and keep the usage limited.

How to win friends and influence people.

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

The greatest book I have ever read. I reread it at least once a year.
I was at a swapmeet a couple of years ago and someone was selling the audio book on CD, I bought it with out a second thought. I have since encoded to MP3 and have them on my iPod. I listen to them in the car driving to and from work.
And yes you can use it to easily bed married or single women.

Another package list

[AliasMarlowe]

amazing - someone who had mod points could have modded the parent informative and instead chose to waste points making you redundant.

It happens. No big deal.
In part I found the post by waynemcdougal to be informative because I'm currently repurposing a disused Dell GX260 to donate to the local primary school (no tax break - this is Finland). After securely wiping its disk, I'm installing Ubuntu with a selection of applications. My list has much in common with Wayne's, but his list was quite helpful and had some suggestions which were not familiar to me.

Here's my updated list, which requires enabling the multiverse and backports repositories, and adding the medibuntu, opera, and geogebra repositories. These are all additions to the standard Ubuntu 10.04 LTS install.
General: ubuntu-restricted-extras p7zip mousepad wine sun-java6-bin
Educational: atomix chemtool geogebra genius gnome-genius extcalc stellarium googleearth tuxtype tuxmath tuxpaint xaos
Media: blender libdvdcss2 vlc w32codecs geeqie lives mplayer openshot pitivi gtk-recordmydesktop
Office: abiword gnumeric create-resources inkscape scribus gimp qcad vym
Games: briquolo lbreakout2 gnome-games extremetuxracer supertux supertuxkart pingus
Network: chromium-browser opera
Some of these packages (geogebra, genius, chemtool, etc.) are aimed more at high school than primary school, but the teachers might find a way to take advantage of them.

Not windows

[JustNiz]

You're going to give a laptop running Windows to a 4 year old?
Doesn't that constitute child abuse?

For the love of God, install Linux on it first.

Tux Paint

[maddoxej]

My child enjoys Tux Paint and I've heard it is also used in some local classrooms.

gcompris

[kallenberg]

One program I tried was gcompris. It is very good for kids. It teaches them how to use the mouse, and has very simple games in it. I have a 3 year nephew that uses it, as his first application, and just used it as had he done nothing else. I would say the levels are from 2-12 years

couple of suggestions

[Fuzzums]

- football
- lego
- blocks
- rope
- knife (ok, maybe not)
- outdoors
- sunlight
- hide and seek

An actual answer buried deep in slashblather.

[recked]

Incredible! Someone actually attempted an answer to the question rather than endlessly re-framing it to suit their irrelevant knowledge and experience. Thank you.

You might also check out the learning apps developed at Terc http://www.terc.edu/products.html
where "The Logical Journey of the Zoombinis" was developed. http://www.terc.edu/work/423.html

Re:Unless you capture their traffic and look at it

[tehcyder]

> If they do manage to bypass it I think perhaps I might be more proud of that achievement than I would be upset. :D

That's the correct reaction, yes :)

If the idea of morality that you teach your kids is that anything you can get away with is OK, don't be surprised when they turn to crime or set up something like Facebook.

Re:Hope you see this list: what to load for a 4yr

[tehcyder]

cube2-sauerbraten might be a pretty good addition because of in-game map building mode. just disable the blood, use the nicer player models.

Yes, an FPS is exactly what you should give a four year old.

Pictures from space, photo editing

[ITgrrrl]

Besides drawing/paint programs and gcompris (all good suggestions)( just bookmarking HubbleSite and some of the other sites with astronomy pictures would be good entertainment. 4 isn't too young for a very basic, cheap digital camera either so how adding it and a basic photo edit program to go with the netbook? If it's pure fun and games my daughter loved the Sims when she was a tad older than 4.

Rather than a browser desktop icon

[GodfatherofSoul]

How about desktop links to kid-friendly sites? My nephew is about the same age and he only goes to about 3-4 websites and knows how to navigate content (videos, lessons, etc.) on his own.

Re:LOLWHAT?!?! You posted your add. and #?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh my god, alert the presses! BadAnalogyGuy is Joe Biden!

you don't need much

[hether]

Our soon-to-be-4yo has gcompris, firefox, abiword and an icon to get to the the network drive where all his media is stored. In FF, we've set it up with bookmarks toolbar that shows his favorite web sites - pbskids.org, starfall.com, cbeebies.co.uk, etc. It seems to work well for him. Gcompris really ramped up his mousing skills quickly, and now he's learned how the arrow keys work so can play pretty much any of the games on those sites without help. In addition to games you can also watch videos, print things out, etc.- enough to keep a kid busy for hours if they're interested. He also loves to type in abiword, then delete it all and start again.

4 year olds

[jbolden]

4 year olds have little interest in the internet in my experience, though it sounds like yours might be different. I'd say buy a bunch of education games. You can get the ones a few years out of date super cheap and kids of that age will play them. In terms of the internet, you can just whitelist rather than blacklist

My kid used to only go to http://www.webkinz.com/ which BTW is a very good deal, buy one doll and you get the site for a year.

Its really sad...

[NuKe_MoNgOoSe]

That our generation and those before us have made the world a place to fear for children, they cant even be safe at halloween anymore. They have to be wary of people who have far from their best interests at heart. There was a time where you could set your kids loose on their own to explore the world. You really cant do that anymore. Its so hard nowadays to protect kids from a world which is full of danger, and you cant keep them away you can only prepare them the best you can. The internet is the same way I fully support introducing kids to technology it will be a large part of their lives for the rest of their years. Much like the world outside though the net has its dangers too. So its our responsibility to try and protect them from those dangers as well.

Re:Unless you capture their traffic and look at it

[RichiH]

> If the idea of morality that you teach your kids is that anything you can get away with is OK, don't be surprised when they turn to crime or set up something like Facebook.

Nice try. Still, they should challenge rules and try to overcome barriers. Docile sheep are not useful members of society; I want my kids to be smart and inquisitive. If that makes my life harder cause I have to do more work so be it.

Linux

[brirus]

Edubuntu is a great for kids :)

anything but....

[Anonymous Coward]

child porn.

they are way to young to appreciate porn at that age

Child Porn!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the only time they can enjoy that shit! Because once you're an adult it becomes illegal.