Just so you know, it has changed to 3rd grade rencently. Even so, having mandatory english classes starting at the 4th grade is in my book pretty good, though 3rd grade is better. You may not feel that way and you're entitled to your opinion.
And CEGEPs were free (you didn't pay for classes, but you did pay for books). Yes, things have changed since then. But I was talking about it at their creation. Right now, students pay 7% in tuition of the actual cost, and it's 12% for university students ( http://www.meq.gouv.qc.ca/MINISTRE/ minis96/frais.htm - find 'cegep' on the page).
Bill 101 (the most known of the language laws in Quebec) was passed in 1977. It has been amended a few times since, allowing more leway for multilingual signs, but french has to be more visible. It deals mostly with business and government, but has little _direct_ impact on private life (as a citizen, you can speak/write/browse/whatever in any language you see fit, be it english, french, spanish, klingon, etc.) It's different for business because they sell things/offer services to the population. Since 95% of the population speaks french (82% as a first language (on a side note, 67% of people on the island of Montreal speak french as a first language)), you would think businesses would be bright enough to see the use of offering bilingual services. After all, the customer is always right. Wrong.
Until the 60's, business was almost always done in English. Why? Simple. Quebec until then had a large rural population and the great majority of francophones in the cities were factory workers; higher education was rarely an option and few had a high school education. Although outnumbered 5 to 1, anglophones owned most businesses, especially larger ones;they usually had easier access to better/higher education. English as the business language seemed a logical extension of this.
Something happened in the 1960's in Quebec; it was called 'La revolution tranquille' (the quiet revolution). For decades Quebec as a province lagged behind all its north american neighbors in areas of education, health care, social rights and technology. Because of the lower level of education and no real laws to protect them (the provincial governement led by Maurice Duplessis for decades almost always sided with business, even going as far as repressing strikes (such as the Asbestos worker's strike), they were cheap labour, with not much hope for advancement.
Does this mean the 'quebecois' were oppressed? Yes and no. True, they had little chance of entering the business world (there are exceptions; but exceptions are not the rule), outside of small shops and the like. True, if you spoke french only, your chances were even slimmer. But with very few people with at least a high school education (until the 50's, a great number of quebecers, if not the majority, were functionally illiterate), how can this be otherwise? So in reality, the issue was more about education (or lack thereof) than anything else.
The quiet revolution happened because the people elected a government that was willing to make major efforts to modernize Quebec. Major reforms happened in education, healthcare, social rights. The creation of CEGEPs (colleges d'enseignement general et professionel) was one of the bigger steps, along with mandatory education until the age of 16. The CEGEPs are placed between high school and universities, providing either preparatory programs (2 years) in order to go to university afterwards, or complete programs (3 years). This way, post-secondary education was now available to all the population, for free. A few years later, the University of Quebec was created as well, with free access as well (this changed over the year, but is still remarkably accessible). Because of these events, the level of education in the Quebec francophone population increased dramatically.
But in the 70's, did businesses take that into account and changed their practices? Not really. It took the election of the Parti Quebecois in 1976 to change things on the language front. They passed bill 101 in order to promote and preserve french. It was not meant to exact revenge on the english community, no matter what many have said. So suddenly business had to offer its services in french. Let's just say that for many the transition was far from easy and difficult to accept; after all, what right did the government have to force them to change their business practices? The answer is simple: they were elected after a landslide victory and the voters knew very well who they voted for and what they wanted to do. So this was something that was wished by a majority of quebecers.
Now, 23 years later, business is booming in the province, unemployement is at a 25 year low, high-technology companies are flourishing in Montreal, in such fields as biotechnology, transportation/aviation and computers (software and hardware). All this in an 'oppressive' regime out to destroy english. You know, this language law doesn't seem that bad to business, does it?
The example in the article is about an individual who has a small business website in english only. The law states that commercial documentation should also be available in french. Although maintaining a bilingual site is harder (I've done it in the past), it's not that hard, especially for a site that's quite small and mostly links (go to www.michelsoucy.com, the website that is the subject of the article). Yes, it will cost him time and money. But this is the law, for now. Dura lex, sed lex. Also, why couldn't this be an opportunity for him? With the publicity he gets from this (go to the link called 'Read about "The Notarious(sic) Language Criminal!"' on his website), he could get a bilingual partner or employee and be able to offer his services in both languages, expanding his business. He doesn't have to do it, of course, but it would make a lot of sense and may well benefit him in the end. But he chose the courts instead; if he wins, good for him. If he doesn't, the earlier option is still available to him. Either way, he could come out of this a winner.
As for my reasons to approve of this law: with it, french is stronger now than in the early 70's. You can get almost any job anywhere in Quebec if you speak french (and have the appropriate skills, of course), whereas this isn't true if you only speak english. The best bet is still to speak these two languages (or more). As for more personal reasons, I want my future children and grandchildren to be able to enjoy Moliere AND Shakespeare. With this law in place, french will be present and the most used language in this province for a long time. And for those who think we're trying to cut ourselves from the rest of the world, here's a little something to think about: english classes are mandatory in Quebec french schools from the 3rd grade to the last year of high school. Kinda odd for a society bent on destroying all traces of english, don't you think?;)
Corporations exist to make money and to make sure that they'll continue to do so in the future. That involves finding ways of beating the competition; while I have no problems with this, the methods used show exactly how ethical some companies are.
I remember that night quite clearly: I spent about an hour outside, watching the most beautiful northern lights I ever saw. It was a breathtaking sight because they covered most of the sky and were very bright... those images will stay with me for a long time:)
My very first distro was Slack 2.0. Boy, did I love the EASY installation process. It really made me appreciate later Red Hat 4.2's simple install. I've used RH 5.1 and 6.0 after that and I can't really complain; true, other distros are as easy or easier to install now, but I like RH (just a matter of personal taste). Since I have an extra box here, I might try the 6.2 Beta. Not only would I get an early peek at 6.2, I can also help in a limited way to improve a product that I enjoy using.
When I read the article, I was surprised how direct and to the point the writer was. He comes across as neither a linux zealot nor a MS fanatic, which is what many articles that sing the praises of either product do. Here, we have a clear analysis of the good things and the flaws in both products (and of microsoft's business strategy), which is a refreshing change from many "propaganda" pieces.
But what I liked most was the last paragraph: "When microsoft is forced to compete on equal footing... we'll see its products make big strides in usability and stability". Competition is a good thing for consumers:)
>> Oh gee, you mean the government is actually going to allow somebody to use English?! Amazing! Why exactly should there be a law saying when one can and cannot use a particular language in the first place?
Those laws are there only for businesses and government; any individual may use, write, speak any language he/she damn well pleases. Had you tried to find out what those laws were (I even named them in my previous post; you could have asked for more details or done a web search, by the way), you would have known that.
As for why these laws exist? Well, we like speaking, reading and writing in french; this is the best way to insure that our children and grandchildren still will do so. I want the kids I hope I'll have one day to be able to appreciate Moliere as well as Shakespeare. You may not like it or agree with it, but that's the choice our society made via democratic means. If you don't believe me, look at the participation rate in major elections and referendums in this province. Here, anything below 75% participation is considered abnormaly low. Usually, around 80% of the voters use their right to vote in elections; that figure jumps to 90%+ in referendums. We believe in democracy here and actually participate in it; so when these laws are passed and the party that was in power is re-elected, it means that it was the people's choice.
In other words, these laws exist because the majority of people in Quebec want them.
Gee... Yes, the Quebec government are intolerant bastards and wish to wipe english out of existence. That must be why english is a MANDATORY class in Quebec schools from the 3rd grade to the end of high school (this is a Quebec provincial law, by the way), why, in places where there is a significant percentage of anglophones, signs can be in english and french (again, Quebec law (bill 101, amended by bill 178)), why Tele-Quebec, the TV network owned by the Quebec governement, has a lot of english educational programming in english. Oh, one more thing:The Parti Quebecois is either responsible for many of these laws, or has been wise enough to leave them as is.
You're right; all these signs point to a place intolerant of anything non-french/quebecois.
Ok, marvelling at how bubbles flow down is a bit strange, but hey, people are weird that way. It's funny, though: I like it when something is solved, but sometimes, it's nice when there's something that no one can explain YET. Nothing like a problem that no one has solved to get the brain working.
Once you get into publications that have nothing to do with computers, one must admit that linux is in the mainstream now. We already knew that it was the darling buzzword in finance and of many techies (and related publications), but playboy? This is a surprise, although not a huge one. Linux has been growing a lot in the past year, so I guess it was to be expected... still... playboy?;)
What's nice is the author saying how easy to install the two distros he tried (Red Hat and Corel) were. I still remember installing Slackware 2.0 a few years ago, distributions have improved greatly in that regard. The two he tried are indeed very easy install-wise. Now, readers of this magazine know a bit more about Linux, which is a good thing.
I was just curious: what were, and are, the games you play? not necessarely computer games; stuff like chess, for example. I ask because I'm a chess player, who also teaches chess to kids. By the way, thank you for making my youth extremely fun (I had an apple ][e for years a while back; tons of fun:)
Well... I could say looks can be deceiving...;) But no. He's actually a pretty decent guy, even though he's only 4'5" tall. His long curly red beard is nice, though.
Well, he did write fetchmail (it was based on an earlier program and he did have help from others, but still...). I know, one program does not a hacker make, but the guy can code and that counts for something in my book.
Take all the time you need; after all, it is YOUR site. There are no perfect sites on the web, but Slashdot is already good and can only get better with all the effort you put in it. I'm curious though as to how this moderation experiment will work out. Anyway, keep up the good work and don't forget your asbestos suit.
> You have misunderstood me. > "moderation" is not evil, per sae, but the act of reducing the threshold because the moderator does not agree with the *viewpoint* expressed in the post most definately is.
Ah. Sorry about that; english is not my first language, which is probably why I missed the true meaning of the post.
Anyway, now that I have a better understanding of your viewpoint, I have to agree with it. My apologies for the confusion.
I happen to disagree with you. You seem to dislike moderation because moderators might abuse their power; should we therefore also condemn democracy, because politicians could do the same? The problem is not with moderation, but with the possibility of there being dishonest people trying to push their own agendas.
While I know that they exist , I believe that they are a minority (on Slashdot, that is) so their impact shouldn't be too great.
> Each downward moderation should have a REASON tagged onto it, and the identity of the moderator should be listed
I do agree with this idea, though. People would know why their post is considered in a bad light by moderators; who knows, the poster might even learn a few things too.
Slashdot Mirror
Just so you know, it has changed to 3rd grade rencently. Even so, having mandatory english classes starting at the 4th grade is in my book pretty good, though 3rd grade is better. You may not feel that way and you're entitled to your opinion.
And CEGEPs were free (you didn't pay for classes, but you did pay for books). Yes, things have changed since then. But I was talking about it at their creation. Right now, students pay 7% in tuition of the actual cost, and it's 12% for university students ( http://www.meq.gouv.qc.ca/MINISTRE/ minis96/frais.htm - find 'cegep' on the page).
The use of a helicopter in such an environment is a wonderfully original concept. Leonardo Da Vinci's invention sure has come a long way :)
Bill 101 (the most known of the language laws in Quebec) was passed in 1977. It has been amended a few times since, allowing more leway for multilingual signs, but french has to be more visible. It deals mostly with business and government, but has little _direct_ impact on private life (as a citizen, you can speak/write/browse/whatever in any language you see fit, be it english, french, spanish, klingon, etc.) It's different for business because they sell things/offer services to the population. Since 95% of the population speaks french (82% as a first language (on a side note, 67% of people on the island of Montreal speak french as a first language)), you would think businesses would be bright enough to see the use of offering bilingual services. After all, the customer is always right. Wrong.
;)
Until the 60's, business was almost always done in English. Why? Simple. Quebec until then had a large rural population and the great majority of francophones in the cities were factory workers; higher education was rarely an option and few had a high school education. Although outnumbered 5 to 1, anglophones owned most businesses, especially larger ones;they usually had easier access to better/higher education. English as the business language seemed a logical extension of this.
Something happened in the 1960's in Quebec; it was called 'La revolution tranquille' (the quiet revolution). For decades Quebec as a province lagged behind all its north american neighbors in areas of education, health care, social rights and technology. Because of the lower level of education and no real laws to protect them (the provincial governement led by Maurice Duplessis for decades almost always sided with business, even going as far as repressing strikes (such as the Asbestos worker's strike), they were cheap labour, with not much hope for advancement.
Does this mean the 'quebecois' were oppressed? Yes and no. True, they had little chance of entering the business world (there are exceptions; but exceptions are not the rule), outside of small shops and the like. True, if you spoke french only, your chances were even slimmer. But with very few people with at least a high school education (until the 50's, a great number of quebecers, if not the majority, were functionally illiterate), how can this be otherwise? So in reality, the issue was more about education (or lack thereof) than anything else.
The quiet revolution happened because the people elected a government that was willing to make major efforts to modernize Quebec. Major reforms happened in education, healthcare, social rights. The creation of CEGEPs (colleges d'enseignement general et professionel) was one of the bigger steps, along with mandatory education until the age of 16. The CEGEPs are placed between high school and universities, providing either preparatory programs (2 years) in order to go to university afterwards, or complete programs (3 years). This way, post-secondary education was now available to all the population, for free. A few years later, the University of Quebec was created as well, with free access as well (this changed over the year, but is still remarkably accessible). Because of these events, the level of education in the Quebec francophone population increased dramatically.
But in the 70's, did businesses take that into account and changed their practices? Not really. It took the election of the Parti Quebecois in 1976 to change things on the language front. They passed bill 101 in order to promote and preserve french. It was not meant to exact revenge on the english community, no matter what many have said. So suddenly business had to offer its services in french. Let's just say that for many the transition was far from easy and difficult to accept; after all, what right did the government have to force them to change their business practices? The answer is simple: they were elected after a landslide victory and the voters knew very well who they voted for and what they wanted to do. So this was something that was wished by a majority of quebecers.
Now, 23 years later, business is booming in the province, unemployement is at a 25 year low, high-technology companies are flourishing in Montreal, in such fields as biotechnology, transportation/aviation and computers (software and hardware). All this in an 'oppressive' regime out to destroy english. You know, this language law doesn't seem that bad to business, does it?
The example in the article is about an individual who has a small business website in english only. The law states that commercial documentation should also be available in french. Although maintaining a bilingual site is harder (I've done it in the past), it's not that hard, especially for a site that's quite small and mostly links (go to www.michelsoucy.com, the website that is the subject of the article). Yes, it will cost him time and money. But this is the law, for now. Dura lex, sed lex. Also, why couldn't this be an opportunity for him? With the publicity he gets from this (go to the link called 'Read about "The Notarious(sic) Language Criminal!"' on his website), he could get a bilingual partner or employee and be able to offer his services in both languages, expanding his business. He doesn't have to do it, of course, but it would make a lot of sense and may well benefit him in the end. But he chose the courts instead; if he wins, good for him. If he doesn't, the earlier option is still available to him. Either way, he could come out of this a winner.
As for my reasons to approve of this law: with it, french is stronger now than in the early 70's. You can get almost any job anywhere in Quebec if you speak french (and have the appropriate skills, of course), whereas this isn't true if you only speak english. The best bet is still to speak these two languages (or more). As for more personal reasons, I want my future children and grandchildren to be able to enjoy Moliere AND Shakespeare. With this law in place, french will be present and the most used language in this province for a long time. And for those who think we're trying to cut ourselves from the rest of the world, here's a little something to think about: english classes are mandatory in Quebec french schools from the 3rd grade to the last year of high school. Kinda odd for a society bent on destroying all traces of english, don't you think?
Corporations exist to make money and to make sure that they'll continue to do so in the future. That involves finding ways of beating the competition; while I have no problems with this, the methods used show exactly how ethical some companies are.
Just a note: Jim Carrey is canadian, not american. Doesn't make him any funnier, though ;)
I remember that night quite clearly: I spent about an hour outside, watching the most beautiful northern lights I ever saw. It was a breathtaking sight because they covered most of the sky and were very bright... those images will stay with me for a long time :)
My very first distro was Slack 2.0. Boy, did I love the EASY installation process. It really made me appreciate later Red Hat 4.2's simple install. I've used RH 5.1 and 6.0 after that and I can't really complain; true, other distros are as easy or easier to install now, but I like RH (just a matter of personal taste). Since I have an extra box here, I might try the 6.2 Beta. Not only would I get an early peek at 6.2, I can also help in a limited way to improve a product that I enjoy using.
When I read the article, I was surprised how direct and to the point the writer was. He comes across as neither a linux zealot nor a MS fanatic, which is what many articles that sing the praises of either product do. Here, we have a clear analysis of the good things and the flaws in both products (and of microsoft's business strategy), which is a refreshing change from many "propaganda" pieces.
... we'll see its products make big strides in usability and stability". Competition is a good thing for consumers :)
But what I liked most was the last paragraph: "When microsoft is forced to compete on equal footing
>> Oh gee, you mean the government is actually going to allow somebody to use English?! Amazing! Why exactly should there be a law saying when one can and cannot use a particular language in the first place?
Those laws are there only for businesses and government; any individual may use, write, speak any language he/she damn well pleases. Had you tried to find out what those laws were (I even named them in my previous post; you could have asked for more details or done a web search, by the way), you would have known that.
As for why these laws exist? Well, we like speaking, reading and writing in french; this is the best way to insure that our children and grandchildren still will do so. I want the kids I hope I'll have one day to be able to appreciate Moliere as well as Shakespeare. You may not like it or agree with it, but that's the choice our society made via democratic means. If you don't believe me, look at the participation rate in major elections and referendums in this province. Here, anything below 75% participation is considered abnormaly low. Usually, around 80% of the voters use their right to vote in elections; that figure jumps to 90%+ in referendums. We believe in democracy here and actually participate in it; so when these laws are passed and the party that was in power is re-elected, it means that it was the people's choice.
In other words, these laws exist because the majority of people in Quebec want them.
"has a lot of english educational programming in english."
I really have to learn to use the preview button. Sorry about that.
Gee... Yes, the Quebec government are intolerant bastards and wish to wipe english out of existence. That must be why english is a MANDATORY class in Quebec schools from the 3rd grade to the end of high school (this is a Quebec provincial law, by the way), why, in places where there is a significant percentage of anglophones, signs can be in english and french (again, Quebec law (bill 101, amended by bill 178)), why Tele-Quebec, the TV network owned by the Quebec governement, has a lot of english educational programming in english. Oh, one more thing:The Parti Quebecois is either responsible for many of these laws, or has been wise enough to leave them as is.
You're right; all these signs point to a place intolerant of anything non-french/quebecois.
Ok, marvelling at how bubbles flow down is a bit strange, but hey, people are weird that way. It's funny, though: I like it when something is solved, but sometimes, it's nice when there's something that no one can explain YET. Nothing like a problem that no one has solved to get the brain working.
My bad; should have previewed my post before posting it, I guess :)
My apologies for such a faux pas.
Once you get into publications that have nothing to do with computers, one must admit that linux is in the mainstream now. We already knew that it was the darling buzzword in finance and of many techies (and related publications), but playboy? This is a surprise, although not a huge one. Linux has been growing a lot in the past year, so I guess it was to be expected... still... playboy? ;)
What's nice is the author saying how easy to install the two distros he tried (Red Hat and Corel) were. I still remember installing Slackware 2.0 a few years ago, distributions have improved greatly in that regard. The two he tried are indeed very easy install-wise. Now, readers of this magazine know a bit more about Linux, which is a good thing.
I was just curious: what were, and are, the games you play? not necessarely computer games; stuff like chess, for example. I ask because I'm a chess player, who also teaches chess to kids. By the way, thank you for making my youth extremely fun (I had an apple ][e for years a while back; tons of fun :)
Well... I could say looks can be deceiving... ;) But no. He's actually a pretty decent guy, even though he's only 4'5" tall. His long curly red beard is nice, though.
Just a small correction: a megaparsec is 3.26 million light years, not 3.26 billion.
Only a few hours from home and Alan Cox will be there... 225$ seems a little steep, but I think it might be worth it.
Well, he did write fetchmail (it was based on an earlier program and he did have help from others, but still...). I know, one program does not a hacker make, but the guy can code and that counts for something in my book.
Take all the time you need; after all, it is YOUR site. There are no perfect sites on the web, but Slashdot is already good and can only get better with all the effort you put in it. I'm curious though as to how this moderation experiment will work out. Anyway, keep up the good work and don't forget your asbestos suit.
> You have misunderstood me.
:-)
> "moderation" is not evil, per sae, but the act of reducing the threshold because the moderator does not agree with the *viewpoint* expressed in the post most definately is.
Ah. Sorry about that; english is not my first language, which is probably why I missed the true meaning of the post.
Anyway, now that I have a better understanding of your viewpoint, I have to agree with it. My apologies for the confusion.
Errare humanum est
> [About moderation] This is wrong. It's Evil.
I happen to disagree with you. You seem to dislike moderation because moderators might abuse their power; should we therefore also condemn democracy, because politicians could do the same? The problem is not with moderation, but with the possibility of there being dishonest people trying to push their own agendas.
While I know that they exist , I believe that they are a minority (on Slashdot, that is) so their impact shouldn't be too great.
> Each downward moderation should have a REASON tagged onto it, and the identity of the moderator should be listed
I do agree with this idea, though. People would know why their post is considered in a bad light by moderators; who knows, the poster might even learn a few things too.