For me and a growing amount of people Mozilla has become irrelevant anyway, too much creep and bloat in their core product, Firefox. Combined with a "we know better than you what you want/need" attitude (ala Apple, but getting it wrong more than Apple) .
And in the meantime most of the other browsers have caught up/surpassed them.
We should be always thankful to them for kick starting the web again after MS nearly stagnated it to death but it is time for Mozilla to go away while it still has some respect in the community
"Drawing comparisons to Microsoft's antitrust trial, in which they were accused of giving away Internet Explorer to drive competitors out of the browser market,"
The difference between the two is MS was using it's dominant position in the OS market to install IE free and by default and "forcing" OEM's to do so, google not only did not have a dominant position in the mobile market, it barely had one at all.
Nobody can afford to be nice anymore. The world has changed.
No it has not changed. World was never as nice as people like to think it was. Men have been attacking, raping and murdering defenseless women since the dawn of time and all other manner of evil went on all the time, none of it is new
Just peoples perceptions have changed, mainly due to the monster called the news media, because that can only make a real living out of bad news and keeping people afraid
Considering 5.0 is mostly just a newer revision of 4.0, how can testing be that hard?
Because for many it not the testing of the actual browser or it's add's that's the issue (though for many others it is) it the testing of all the web apps that the browser interacts with that is the real time eater (and time is money) And that's before we even begin to cost any actual redevelopment costs required
Minor versions upgrades generally are just security bug fixes so forth (same as MS patch Tuesdays), rarely seen a web app affected, testing required is generally minimal for web apps. Major versions can and do change lots, including rendering, testing has to be a lot more detailed
By no longer having update types clearly defined, all updates must now be treated as major, because while 4-5 was minor there are no guarantees 6>7 or 7>8 will be and because they are EOLing the previous version straight away if a major exploit that affects multiple versions is discovered you will have to upgrade straight away or be exposed, because Mozilla will not patch versions that might be only a few months old
So choice for enterprises is simple, have a massive non stop ongoing testing cycle massively boosting the TCO to maintain Firefox compatibility or drop it totally.
To anyone with an ounce of common sense the choice will be obvious
With the glacial pace that new technologies are becoming available in web browsers, webmasters don't bother with new technology
Might be a valid argument, if FF was only browser out there or had a market share like IE did years ago so other browsers did not matter. But neither is the case.
There are two simple facts:
Web dev's generally will not implement some new tech until majority of browsers in use support it, because otherwise they will have to do two or more versions of everything they do (and we got tired of that YEARS ago)
Web dev's who do it for an actual living don't want to to spend all their time learning every single damn new tech that comes out, not only will their boss object to them having so much downtime but they have lives as well.
Anything new is going to spend a lot of time with amateurs, hobbiest's, 'geeks re-inventing the wheel' just to prove it can be done, who are quite happy to have something only working on one browser, before it will have wide scale uptake. So sure implement it, but there is no damn rush to get it out the door because majority of people will not be using those features for a long while
Just because the situation made it easy for Mozilla to push the web into the future once, it needs realize it cannot do it again and if it keeps trying the only likely future for the web will be one without Firefox in it
Honestly i could not care about HTML5 as a user or developer until a standard is agreed and finalized because until it is we are just going back to the bad old days "Optimized for Browser X Version Y" or "You need browser Z to view this site"
And even when it is agreed it will be a few years until anyone would do serious commercial development solely in HTML5 due to slow slow speed people upgrade their browsers
Yes HTML 5 is exciting for the actual browser dev's right now (they have had little to do beyond tweaking js for speeding for last few years), but there is no damn hurry to get it out the door because web dev's themselves are a long way off seriously developing in it for a mass audience
In mine most power users/IT staff have also done the migration or are in the process of doing so.
And been my standard SOP for a while now with personal support (Friends/family so forth) to uninstall FireFox (and delete IE shortcuts) and install chrome instead. Once Ad block for chrome was out there was no good reason not to, it's faster loading than firefox and loads most pages faster too and never had it crash (And Firefox seems to spend more time copying chrome than anything)
Sad really as been with Firefox since before it was Firefox, but honestly these days it seems to suffer from same problem Mozilla did, feature bloat
Stupid move really, everyone seems to be forgetting what made MS so big in the first place, whole scale enterprise adoption and the desire of people to have the same thing at home as they used at work.
Now you have on one hand the No2 in desktop OS's (apple) ignoring the enterprise and now the No2 in the browser market saying the same (and without Apples "cool" factor and marketing budget to help them).
But here is the thing, if you don't provide the enterprise what they want/need, they go to who does, so those users will be once again be using the rival products (aka Microsoft) all day long and when they are at home they will want the exact same damn thing and unlike 5+ years ago MS are once again actually trying to deliver decent standards compliant products again
MS will gain big time from this (they are already talking about dropping FireFox from the default build here due to the new release cycle) and if they are not careful they will just hand MS total domination again, something not even those who make a living out of MS products and technologies want to see
" I dont know anyone who has thrown out their book collection after getting a kindle"
*Raises hand*
Guilty as charged, but then i have a reason, i move around quite a bit (and with a large international move planned within the next 6 months) and not having a book collection (had about 200) has cut down my "stuff" I have to move to basically two suitcases and a laptop
Honestly don't see it being that absurd, a generation is about 20 years, a few is generally somewhere between 3 to 5, so he is talking about "in about a 100 years", which is quite a long time in today’s world. I could honestly see paper book's becoming just something for hobbyist and collectors by then.
It just a natural progression, cave wall to stone > clay > wax > parchment > paper > digital
While an interesting post, as soon as i read "we invented the Hamburger." i had to take every example he gave with a pinch of salt...as someone who "knows what they are talking about" would never say something like that
And then he finish's it off with his whole little discussion about the potato, without even checking know most of that is wrong because contrary to common Irish belief, the potato did not come to europe until after america was discovered, as it came come south america
Actually thinking about, i would consider everything he says wrong unless proven otherwise
Around 2008 average saving per year for Americans was less than $400, though from what i have heard, due to the shaky economy it has now risen a little bit
This sounds like someone on the school board trying to be "hip" rather than a sensible use of funds. Ipad's are all nice and shiny sure, but there is nothing they can do that a average laptop cannot do for less money. Actually the average laptop with any OS can do a hell of a lot more
Determined no such thing. Seen scenarios like this (users running off and doing their own thing) before and the reasons behind it have multiple
Sometimes as you say it's shoddy unresponsive IT departments, but in others it has been security/legal rules/costs that prevented IT from doing it and in more than one case it has been the user has gone behind IT's back and the first IT hear about not only the "solution" but the actual requirement is when things either go tits up or as in this case the users solution suddenly needs access outside it's sandbox or in my most recent experience of this it needed into the corp sandbox because the user was hosting their "solution" (containing very sensitive corp data) on their freebie web space given to them by their ISP
And even it is the a case of what seems a bad IT department, running off and doing your own thing is always the worst thing you can in the long term because it always goes wrong and then you (or your successor) will be looking to IT to save the day. Far better to find out why IT is bad and fix that (and you might be surprised it might not be them but those above them that are the real cause of the problem, aka those who hold the purse strings)
Cops can arrest you for pretty much anything what, what count's is what happen's in court and would be very interested to see if a single person who told them were to find drug's was convicted if they did not stupidly plead out. Somehow i doubt it
"Google isn't solely made and used for distributing copyrighted content illegally. IsoHunt, as well as The Pirate Bay, is. Us geeks have to learn that such things matter in court."
So a otherwise gainfully employed part time drug dealer is is not doing anything illegal?
Intent, purpose, gain or even knowledge of the law are of little interest to the court's except at sentencing, which only occurs after the actual guilty/innocent verdict
The install base of Macs is likely around 30% in 1st world countries.
Not even half that. Where are at least 50% if not more of the computers? In Offices...and what do 99% of companies use? Windows
Even 10% of install base would be pushing it
Oh yeah and regarding that prediction, was no modern tablet until mid year 2010 and even then was limited quantities, so "predicting" quadruple sales for 2011 is pretty much no brainier, especially with so many new ones coming out this year
So basically an another Gartner prediction type b)
Honestly if Gartner said the world would NOT end before this time next year i would start preparing for the end of the world
There are only two kinds of Gartner predictions
a) Wrong
b) So late/obvious that it is a nearly a "prediction" after the event already occurred
As the the OT, until recently was of the same opinion, tablets are a fad, but recently changed my opinion and think they are here to stay, outside of work, vast majority of people who get laptop's get it because they don't want to dedicate an area of their house for the pc (aka sit on couch watching tv and surfing the net) and if you look at this demographic you quickly realize that most of these people basically only use their laptop for internet browsing/ odd email/ simple games, all things tablets are suited for. Once price for tablets becomes reasonable i can see tablets eating into a good chunk of laptop sales and nearly completely wiping out net books, but not until price becomes near comparable (which it will)
Inside the workplace though, company's handing out tablets really need to look at what those people are actually doing as tablets are not really suited for actual "work" , aka lots of typing/working with lots of documents, so why do these people need expensive tablet's if they do so little actual work on the pc, leave them with blackberry/smartphone for email and tell them to surf on their own dime
"We don't like him" wasn't a valid reason for shipping to Gitmo
You seem not to realize that this is the exact reason Gitmo exists, for people the US government don't like but that have not actually broken US laws (which contrary to American belief/desire, don't over worldwide jurisdiction over every man woman and child on the planet)
"I don't think the lawyers would be stupid to try and defend its trademark outside the realm of which the company operates."
Of course they will, got to rack up those billable hours somehow
Tobacco is grandfathered in. People have a tradition of smoking it, have legal access to it already, it is protected by lobbyists, and banning it would do some serious harm to legitimate businesses and have a lasting severe negative impact on the economy. Plus the detrimental effects of being deprived (if you are addicted) are even more severe than exposure to Tobacco. Detrimental effects are not as serious as illegal drugs, if tobacco is not smoked in excess, and it is profitable for the government to tax this., much like they tax gambling
Highlighted relevant bits. As to the detrimental effects of tobacco, never heard anyone classify cancer as “not serious”
If possessing or using these drugs was legal, there would be a chance that people unaware of what a certain drug even was; would be exposed to it, without their informed consent.
Can happen and already happens when the drug is illegal (or even with legal drugs), so how does making it illegal help? Oh yeah it does not
As to the rest of your rather poor arguments about the dangers of drugs (which sound like a re run of late 80’s infomercials on drugs and usually ended in, just say ‘No’) notice you stuck whole time to the harder (and more controversial) drugs like coke and LSD and avoid the whole time mentioning the main drug people talk about when talking about legalisation, marijuana. You know the drugs that is less harmful and addictive than Tabaco, more beneficial in moderation than alcohol? Why was that?
Got to say, love your ending, where you twist taking right of personal choice away from people as somehow protecting the right to choose, something right out of the lobbyist playbook
You should consider looking for a job with the Tabaco and alcohol lobbyist group’s.that is if you don’t already work for them
And soon people will be wondering why digital copys are not much cheaper than print versions of magazines.
Sadly in this case they will be blaming the magazines when fault really lays with apple being greedy
You have not eliminated them as an airline to use already? I did years ago.
The "saving" on their flights are in most cases artificial headline savings anyway unless you really want just transport for your body and what you can carry in a small piece of hand luggage from "near A" to "near B" (as they rarely use major airports). Start wanting things like hold luggage and to keep your party together and the costs quickly add up. Hell even if you want just the basics the headline price is rarely the real price.
Airlines are the only industry that i know of in the UK that advertise prices to general public without tax and that's before we get to other things like their 'convenience fees' (that you have to pay) and their pay to get your ticket printed (and in all cases charge vastly greater than what it actually costs them to actually do)
Outside of their special offers, airlines like Ryanair are rarely actually cheaper by more than a few pounds than normal airlines unless you are business traveller on a quick trip for a day or two and if you are a business traveller why try to skimp that much? Expenditure like that you are able to claim back.
Pay those extra pounds, your ass will thank you for it
Though sad thing is other western airlines are now following down Ryanair’s route, hell recently found out BA now charge something like extra £20 each way to get a seat assigned when you book for transatlantic flightsbut then againstoped using BA years ago because they were overcharging for inferior service, basically living off their rep from decades ago
Wish western airlines would follow model of Asian budget airlines like AirAsia, cheap like Ryanair but not gone totally stupid on the skimping like them, comfy seats, assigned seating for very small extra cost. Proper meals (for airline food) available (aka not sandwiches) if preodered. Reasonable costs for luggage weight upgrades if booked beforehand. Hell had better flights with them than on many normal European/American normal airlines
Slashdot Mirror
For me and a growing amount of people Mozilla has become irrelevant anyway, too much creep and bloat in their core product, Firefox. Combined with a "we know better than you what you want/need" attitude (ala Apple, but getting it wrong more than Apple) .
And in the meantime most of the other browsers have caught up/surpassed them.
We should be always thankful to them for kick starting the web again after MS nearly stagnated it to death but it is time for Mozilla to go away while it still has some respect in the community
"Drawing comparisons to Microsoft's antitrust trial, in which they were accused of giving away Internet Explorer to drive competitors out of the browser market," The difference between the two is MS was using it's dominant position in the OS market to install IE free and by default and "forcing" OEM's to do so, google not only did not have a dominant position in the mobile market, it barely had one at all.
Nobody can afford to be nice anymore. The world has changed.
No it has not changed. World was never as nice as people like to think it was. Men have been attacking, raping and murdering defenseless women since the dawn of time and all other manner of evil went on all the time, none of it is new
Just peoples perceptions have changed, mainly due to the monster called the news media, because that can only make a real living out of bad news and keeping people afraid
Considering 5.0 is mostly just a newer revision of 4.0, how can testing be that hard?
Because for many it not the testing of the actual browser or it's add's that's the issue (though for many others it is) it the testing of all the web apps that the browser interacts with that is the real time eater (and time is money) And that's before we even begin to cost any actual redevelopment costs required
Minor versions upgrades generally are just security bug fixes so forth (same as MS patch Tuesdays), rarely seen a web app affected, testing required is generally minimal for web apps. Major versions can and do change lots, including rendering, testing has to be a lot more detailed
By no longer having update types clearly defined, all updates must now be treated as major, because while 4-5 was minor there are no guarantees 6>7 or 7>8 will be and because they are EOLing the previous version straight away if a major exploit that affects multiple versions is discovered you will have to upgrade straight away or be exposed, because Mozilla will not patch versions that might be only a few months old
So choice for enterprises is simple, have a massive non stop ongoing testing cycle massively boosting the TCO to maintain Firefox compatibility or drop it totally.
To anyone with an ounce of common sense the choice will be obvious
With the glacial pace that new technologies are becoming available in web browsers, webmasters don't bother with new technology
Might be a valid argument, if FF was only browser out there or had a market share like IE did years ago so other browsers did not matter. But neither is the case.
There are two simple facts:
Web dev's generally will not implement some new tech until majority of browsers in use support it, because otherwise they will have to do two or more versions of everything they do (and we got tired of that YEARS ago)
Web dev's who do it for an actual living don't want to to spend all their time learning every single damn new tech that comes out, not only will their boss object to them having so much downtime but they have lives as well.
Anything new is going to spend a lot of time with amateurs, hobbiest's, 'geeks re-inventing the wheel' just to prove it can be done, who are quite happy to have something only working on one browser, before it will have wide scale uptake. So sure implement it, but there is no damn rush to get it out the door because majority of people will not be using those features for a long while
Just because the situation made it easy for Mozilla to push the web into the future once, it needs realize it cannot do it again and if it keeps trying the only likely future for the web will be one without Firefox in it
Honestly i could not care about HTML5 as a user or developer until a standard is agreed and finalized because until it is we are just going back to the bad old days "Optimized for Browser X Version Y" or "You need browser Z to view this site"
And even when it is agreed it will be a few years until anyone would do serious commercial development solely in HTML5 due to slow slow speed people upgrade their browsers
Yes HTML 5 is exciting for the actual browser dev's right now (they have had little to do beyond tweaking js for speeding for last few years), but there is no damn hurry to get it out the door because web dev's themselves are a long way off seriously developing in it for a mass audience
The close copying of chrome has had more than a few of us wondering for a while..."what is the point of firefox?"
That is an even bigger issue than this latest debate
In mine most power users/IT staff have also done the migration or are in the process of doing so.
And been my standard SOP for a while now with personal support (Friends/family so forth) to uninstall FireFox (and delete IE shortcuts) and install chrome instead. Once Ad block for chrome was out there was no good reason not to, it's faster loading than firefox and loads most pages faster too and never had it crash (And Firefox seems to spend more time copying chrome than anything)
Sad really as been with Firefox since before it was Firefox, but honestly these days it seems to suffer from same problem Mozilla did, feature bloat
Stupid move really, everyone seems to be forgetting what made MS so big in the first place, whole scale enterprise adoption and the desire of people to have the same thing at home as they used at work.
Now you have on one hand the No2 in desktop OS's (apple) ignoring the enterprise and now the No2 in the browser market saying the same (and without Apples "cool" factor and marketing budget to help them).
But here is the thing, if you don't provide the enterprise what they want/need, they go to who does, so those users will be once again be using the rival products (aka Microsoft) all day long and when they are at home they will want the exact same damn thing and unlike 5+ years ago MS are once again actually trying to deliver decent standards compliant products again
MS will gain big time from this (they are already talking about dropping FireFox from the default build here due to the new release cycle) and if they are not careful they will just hand MS total domination again, something not even those who make a living out of MS products and technologies want to see
" I dont know anyone who has thrown out their book collection after getting a kindle"
*Raises hand*
Guilty as charged, but then i have a reason, i move around quite a bit (and with a large international move planned within the next 6 months) and not having a book collection (had about 200) has cut down my "stuff" I have to move to basically two suitcases and a laptop
Honestly don't see it being that absurd, a generation is about 20 years, a few is generally somewhere between 3 to 5, so he is talking about "in about a 100 years", which is quite a long time in today’s world. I could honestly see paper book's becoming just something for hobbyist and collectors by then.
It just a natural progression, cave wall to stone > clay > wax > parchment > paper > digital
While an interesting post, as soon as i read "we invented the Hamburger." i had to take every example he gave with a pinch of salt...as someone who "knows what they are talking about" would never say something like that And then he finish's it off with his whole little discussion about the potato, without even checking know most of that is wrong because contrary to common Irish belief, the potato did not come to europe until after america was discovered, as it came come south america Actually thinking about, i would consider everything he says wrong unless proven otherwise
Around 2008 average saving per year for Americans was less than $400, though from what i have heard, due to the shaky economy it has now risen a little bit
This sounds like someone on the school board trying to be "hip" rather than a sensible use of funds. Ipad's are all nice and shiny sure, but there is nothing they can do that a average laptop cannot do for less money. Actually the average laptop with any OS can do a hell of a lot more
Determined no such thing. Seen scenarios like this (users running off and doing their own thing) before and the reasons behind it have multiple
Sometimes as you say it's shoddy unresponsive IT departments, but in others it has been security/legal rules/costs that prevented IT from doing it and in more than one case it has been the user has gone behind IT's back and the first IT hear about not only the "solution" but the actual requirement is when things either go tits up or as in this case the users solution suddenly needs access outside it's sandbox or in my most recent experience of this it needed into the corp sandbox because the user was hosting their "solution" (containing very sensitive corp data) on their freebie web space given to them by their ISP
And even it is the a case of what seems a bad IT department, running off and doing your own thing is always the worst thing you can in the long term because it always goes wrong and then you (or your successor) will be looking to IT to save the day. Far better to find out why IT is bad and fix that (and you might be surprised it might not be them but those above them that are the real cause of the problem, aka those who hold the purse strings)
Cops can arrest you for pretty much anything what, what count's is what happen's in court and would be very interested to see if a single person who told them were to find drug's was convicted if they did not stupidly plead out. Somehow i doubt it
"Google isn't solely made and used for distributing copyrighted content illegally. IsoHunt, as well as The Pirate Bay, is. Us geeks have to learn that such things matter in court."
So a otherwise gainfully employed part time drug dealer is is not doing anything illegal?
Intent, purpose, gain or even knowledge of the law are of little interest to the court's except at sentencing, which only occurs after the actual guilty/innocent verdict
The install base of Macs is likely around 30% in 1st world countries.
Not even half that. Where are at least 50% if not more of the computers? In Offices...and what do 99% of companies use? Windows
Even 10% of install base would be pushing it
Work in a place with 1500+ mac's and it's hell
Oh yeah and regarding that prediction, was no modern tablet until mid year 2010 and even then was limited quantities, so "predicting" quadruple sales for 2011 is pretty much no brainier, especially with so many new ones coming out this year So basically an another Gartner prediction type b)
Honestly if Gartner said the world would NOT end before this time next year i would start preparing for the end of the world
There are only two kinds of Gartner predictions
a) Wrong
b) So late/obvious that it is a nearly a "prediction" after the event already occurred
As the the OT, until recently was of the same opinion, tablets are a fad, but recently changed my opinion and think they are here to stay, outside of work, vast majority of people who get laptop's get it because they don't want to dedicate an area of their house for the pc (aka sit on couch watching tv and surfing the net) and if you look at this demographic you quickly realize that most of these people basically only use their laptop for internet browsing/ odd email/ simple games, all things tablets are suited for. Once price for tablets becomes reasonable i can see tablets eating into a good chunk of laptop sales and nearly completely wiping out net books, but not until price becomes near comparable (which it will)
Inside the workplace though, company's handing out tablets really need to look at what those people are actually doing as tablets are not really suited for actual "work" , aka lots of typing/working with lots of documents, so why do these people need expensive tablet's if they do so little actual work on the pc, leave them with blackberry/smartphone for email and tell them to surf on their own dime
"We don't like him" wasn't a valid reason for shipping to Gitmo
You seem not to realize that this is the exact reason Gitmo exists, for people the US government don't like but that have not actually broken US laws (which contrary to American belief/desire, don't over worldwide jurisdiction over every man woman and child on the planet)
"I don't think the lawyers would be stupid to try and defend its trademark outside the realm of which the company operates."
Of course they will, got to rack up those billable hours somehow
Tobacco is grandfathered in. People have a tradition of smoking it, have legal access to it already, it is protected by lobbyists, and banning it would do some serious harm to legitimate businesses and have a lasting severe negative impact on the economy. Plus the detrimental effects of being deprived (if you are addicted) are even more severe than exposure to Tobacco. Detrimental effects are not as serious as illegal drugs, if tobacco is not smoked in excess, and it is profitable for the government to tax this. , much like they tax gambling
Highlighted relevant bits. As to the detrimental effects of tobacco, never heard anyone classify cancer as “not serious”
If possessing or using these drugs was legal, there would be a chance that people unaware of what a certain drug even was; would be exposed to it, without their informed consent.
Can happen and already happens when the drug is illegal (or even with legal drugs), so how does making it illegal help? Oh yeah it does not
As to the rest of your rather poor arguments about the dangers of drugs (which sound like a re run of late 80’s infomercials on drugs and usually ended in, just say ‘No’) notice you stuck whole time to the harder (and more controversial) drugs like coke and LSD and avoid the whole time mentioning the main drug people talk about when talking about legalisation, marijuana. You know the drugs that is less harmful and addictive than Tabaco, more beneficial in moderation than alcohol? Why was that?
Got to say, love your ending, where you twist taking right of personal choice away from people as somehow protecting the right to choose, something right out of the lobbyist playbook
You should consider looking for a job with the Tabaco and alcohol lobbyist group’s.that is if you don’t already work for them
And soon people will be wondering why digital copys are not much cheaper than print versions of magazines. Sadly in this case they will be blaming the magazines when fault really lays with apple being greedy
Doubt they are fussed about "some muslim" coming after them, think more of a case that they don't want to give these fools a platform
You have not eliminated them as an airline to use already? I did years ago.
The "saving" on their flights are in most cases artificial headline savings anyway unless you really want just transport for your body and what you can carry in a small piece of hand luggage from "near A" to "near B" (as they rarely use major airports). Start wanting things like hold luggage and to keep your party together and the costs quickly add up. Hell even if you want just the basics the headline price is rarely the real price.
Airlines are the only industry that i know of in the UK that advertise prices to general public without tax and that's before we get to other things like their 'convenience fees' (that you have to pay) and their pay to get your ticket printed (and in all cases charge vastly greater than what it actually costs them to actually do)
Outside of their special offers, airlines like Ryanair are rarely actually cheaper by more than a few pounds than normal airlines unless you are business traveller on a quick trip for a day or two and if you are a business traveller why try to skimp that much? Expenditure like that you are able to claim back.
Pay those extra pounds, your ass will thank you for it
Though sad thing is other western airlines are now following down Ryanair’s route, hell recently found out BA now charge something like extra £20 each way to get a seat assigned when you book for transatlantic flightsbut then againstoped using BA years ago because they were overcharging for inferior service, basically living off their rep from decades ago
Wish western airlines would follow model of Asian budget airlines like AirAsia, cheap like Ryanair but not gone totally stupid on the skimping like them, comfy seats, assigned seating for very small extra cost. Proper meals (for airline food) available (aka not sandwiches) if preodered. Reasonable costs for luggage weight upgrades if booked beforehand. Hell had better flights with them than on many normal European/American normal airlines