I'll make a couple of very generous assumptions here:
1) There are 200,000 Slashdot readers. (No way! The number of accounts is at something like 20,000; the number total has gotta be less than 200k.)
2) Every one of these would be willing to contribute $20. (Again, highly dubious, when you consider the high-school, etc, students for whom $20 is a lot of money, people overseas and for whom for other reasons, sending such money would be a large hassle, people who are lazy, and people who just don't care.)
Even making these assumptions, my total only comes to $4,000,000. Do you have any idea how much money one of these companies can bring to bear in a lawsuit? Waaaaaaaay more than 4 million! -- - Sean
Once you start doing that, you (Rob/the moderator/whoever) becomes responsible for the content of the posts (or at least the AC ones), which they are not currently.
Then, if one that could be considered (by someone) to be slanderous/libelous/defaming/whatever does get through, the original poster (who is an AC, and therefore unknown) can't be sued, but the lawyers will have the recourse of going after Rob and/or the moderator(s), which believe me, they will do.
Ouch!
Sorry... your proposal could only make the situation worse -- - Sean
While people can try to use libraries and universities for anonymous connections to the Net, those places are also filled with people who can describe that weird guy who brought his laptop in when the crime was committed.
Umm... what?
I dunno about where you live, but I know that around here, I can walk into the public library, sit down at one of the ~50 internet terminals provided, fire up Netscape, and post whatever the hell I want.
In fact, there's usually a ~half-hour to an hour wait to use one of the terminals, depending on what time I go. Believe me, nobody would remember me. It's about as anonymous as you get.
The university is even more anonymous, where I could walk right into the computer lab, post, walk out, and look like any other student. Any of the other 10,000 or so who go to that university. The other major university in town even has internet terminals (text-only, granted) scattered liberally throughout the campus with easy access. Possible that no-one would even notice I was there, let alone recognize me.
Alternatively, I could just log into a freenet to route me.
Combine that with a Hotmail/Yahoo/etc. account...
Trust me -- anonymity is very easy to achieve. -- - Sean
Does this mean I can't continue taking the piss out of perl programmers?
I am actually going to have to give them some respect?
Will I have to stop calling them a bunch of glorified data entry clerks...?
Yep...
...but then again, with all the new users Linux is getting from "going mainstream", there are sure to be at least a couple of VB lusers migrating from Windows who are worth your disrespect.
Of course, calling them "a bunch of glorified data entry clerks" is pretty high praise...
Minix also isn't exactly as technically worthy as Linux.
But I agree that a large component of Linux's success is due to the GPL.
On the other hand, don't make the mistake of assuming that just because the GPL got it this far, it will carry it forever. It may prolong Linux's life, but if Linux does not get any mainstream, commercial, "suit" support, it will die.
As surely as all the "alternative" OS's that came before it have.
Linux has only been around for 8 years. In a real sense (outside of Linus' bedroom), less even than that. It is still very young.
The source code to ITS was available, yet the system itself is long gone (realistically).
I repeat: Open Source will not carry Linux forever.
Sooner or later, we need the support from the suits. Not a fun prospect, but one that must be faced. -- - Sean
So often when someone brings up a serious issue like this, people such as yourself just say "well, you can't do it in Windows, either."
So what?
Avoiding criticism by passing the buck is not a solution. We don't want Linux to be "as good as" Windows, we want it to be better. And that isn't going to happen as long as we keep on responding by insisting that Windows can't do it either.
Instead of saying "Windows can't", we should be saying "Linux can!".
I'll admit I don't have many answers to this, but I'm not going to duck the issue by saying "well... Joe Sixpack couldn't set up a printer and scanner easily under Windows either."
Given a choice between two routes, neither of which offer exactly what he wants, I'm pretty sure our hypothetical Joe Sixpack would feel more comfortable going brand-name.
Besides which, I don't think the poster meant this to apply specifically to scanners and printers. He meant to ask (I think) if GNOME can be easily used to accomplish any standard, real-world, "Joe Sixpack" problems.
So I'll re-pose the original question:
"Can GNOME be used by an end-user to easily get his tasks done?"
And now me. If not, then why not? And what has to be done before he can? How long will it take? More importantly, why is this called a 1.0 release, if it can't be used to do 1.0-type tasks?
Now maybe I'm misguided. I haven't used 1.0 yet, and I'll admit I haven't used GNOME at all (well... not since very early versions). It's possible that 1.0 is capable of all this, and my point is moot. I will check it out to see.
But please don't avoid the issue like most people here tend to do. -- - Sean
My one and only gripe with Opera is the crash rate. On average, it (3.51) crashes once a week for me.
Unfortunately, Opera adheres to W3C standards and doesn't render bad HTML very well...;)
That seems to be the problem right there. As soon as you get a page that has more than one <HTML> tag in it (like if someone forgot the / in the </HTML>), it starts screwing up inside. I have found that 3.21 is the most stable. 3.5x's support for CSS is nice, but not worth the drop in stability, IMHO. Luckily, I saved a copy of 3.21, which I still use.
I dunno if you can still get a copy on the official site or not -- just haven't bothered to check. -- - Sean
I've already bought one for Windows (and is what I use 99% of the time).
I will definitely support the Linux version! -- - Sean
You're not excited because it's not aimed at you.
on
Corel Desktop Linux
·
· Score: 1
You don't seem to get it. Nothing personal... by my reckoning, a lot of people don't get it.
Corel Desktop Linux (CDL?) is not aimed at you, me, or any one of the ~8 million people who already use Linux.
It is aimed at the 100+ million (ok, I'm not sure of the figure. You know what I mean) who don't use Linux. Those who use MS products, and are starting to realize they don't like it, but don't want to try Linux because of the horror stories they have heard of installation hassles, of incompatibilities, of no usable GUI, and so on.
Again, you and I know that that's mostly FUD. A lot of people don't. That's who CDL is aimed at. It's aimed at attracting more users, not converting existing ones.
And despite what you, or anyone else may think (ok, so I don't actually know what you think), I believe this is a Good Thing (tm).
The more people that use Linux, the more market there is for "big name" software to develop for it. We have begun to see this recently. Regardless of what you may think of Intel, IBM or Corel jumping on the Bandwagon, I am sure you will agree that Oracle's announcements have been good news.
And what about native support from hardware manufacturers? I think of 3D Accelerator cards in particular, but the concept applies across the board. Hey... maybe we'll start seeing LinModems soon! (joke!)
And this will be of overall benefit to the Linux community. But it won't happen until we get more users on board. It's starting, but has a ways to go yet.
And those users won't appear until we start making it easier for them. Allay their fears, counteract the FUD. Make it more familiar... make it a lookalike of Windows, for all I care. After all, I'm not going to be using it. And neither are you. Nor will most of the people here on Slashdot.
But I'm willing to bet that a lot of new Linux users will.
Yeah... you're right... I prolly shouldn't have said that... I'm not sure anymore exactly what I was disagreeing with.
Actually, still not quite sure why I posted that in the first place... some innate desire to make my voice heard, whether I had anything useful to say or not.
Just like right now...
.../me ambles off to try and sort out his confused state of mind.
Slashdot Mirror
Other people who get annoyed by this.
My best friend says it all the time, and it drives me BERZERK!!!!!
Hey Rob! New poll idea:
"I could care less."
Well... that's my rant for the day...
--
- Sean
Semantics. The point is the same.
--
- Sean
I'll make a couple of very generous assumptions here:
1) There are 200,000 Slashdot readers. (No way! The number of accounts is at something like 20,000; the number total has gotta be less than 200k.)
2) Every one of these would be willing to contribute $20. (Again, highly dubious, when you consider the high-school, etc, students for whom $20 is a lot of money, people overseas and for whom for other reasons, sending such money would be a large hassle, people who are lazy, and people who just don't care.)
Even making these assumptions, my total only comes to $4,000,000. Do you have any idea how much money one of these companies can bring to bear in a lawsuit? Waaaaaaaay more than 4 million!
--
- Sean
*and* won't harm /. in any way it's ok
That's extremely dangerous.
Once you start doing that, you (Rob/the moderator/whoever) becomes responsible for the content of the posts (or at least the AC ones), which they are not currently.
Then, if one that could be considered (by someone) to be slanderous/libelous/defaming/whatever does get through, the original poster (who is an AC, and therefore unknown) can't be sued, but the lawyers will have the recourse of going after Rob and/or the moderator(s), which believe me, they will do.
Ouch!
Sorry... your proposal could only make the situation worse
--
- Sean
While people can try to use libraries and universities for anonymous connections to the Net, those places are also filled with people who can describe that weird guy who brought his laptop in when the crime was committed.
Umm... what?
I dunno about where you live, but I know that around here, I can walk into the public library, sit down at one of the ~50 internet terminals provided, fire up Netscape, and post whatever the hell I want.
In fact, there's usually a ~half-hour to an hour wait to use one of the terminals, depending on what time I go. Believe me, nobody would remember me. It's about as anonymous as you get.
The university is even more anonymous, where I could walk right into the computer lab, post, walk out, and look like any other student. Any of the other 10,000 or so who go to that university. The other major university in town even has internet terminals (text-only, granted) scattered liberally throughout the campus with easy access. Possible that no-one would even notice I was there, let alone recognize me.
Alternatively, I could just log into a freenet to route me.
Combine that with a Hotmail/Yahoo/etc. account...
Trust me -- anonymity is very easy to achieve.
--
- Sean
I would give quite a different answer depending on exactly what !@#$ translated to...
--
- Sean
--
- Sean
Does this mean I can't continue taking the piss out of perl programmers?
I am actually going to have to give them some respect?
Will I have to stop calling them a bunch of glorified data entry clerks...?
Yep...
...but then again, with all the new users Linux is getting from "going mainstream", there are sure to be at least a couple of VB lusers migrating from Windows who are worth your disrespect.
Of course, calling them "a bunch of glorified data entry clerks" is pretty high praise...
(...for them).
--
- Sean
Whoa, whoa, cool it, dude!
I think he was responding to the first AC, not you.
--
- Sean
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/h acker-howto.html
--
- Sean
ITS was open source. It is now dead.
Linux has not died because it hasn't had the chance to; it's only been around a couple of years.
When it gets obsolete, as it will, all the free code in the world will not save it.
A few generations, a few upgrades, perhaps.
But sooner or later, it will surely die.
--
- Sean
Minix also isn't exactly as technically worthy as Linux.
But I agree that a large component of Linux's success is due to the GPL.
On the other hand, don't make the mistake of assuming that just because the GPL got it this far, it will carry it forever. It may prolong Linux's life, but if Linux does not get any mainstream, commercial, "suit" support, it will die.
As surely as all the "alternative" OS's that came before it have.
Linux has only been around for 8 years. In a real sense (outside of Linus' bedroom), less even than that. It is still very young.
The source code to ITS was available, yet the system itself is long gone (realistically).
I repeat: Open Source will not carry Linux forever.
Sooner or later, we need the support from the suits. Not a fun prospect, but one that must be faced.
--
- Sean
Hmmm... I've never had any problem with Opera and Slashdot. And I've been using it for about a year.
Using it now, as a matter of fact.
--
- Sean
Sun's Java Plugin???
Where? Gimme!
--
- Sean
So often when someone brings up a serious issue like this, people such as yourself just say "well, you can't do it in Windows, either."
So what?
Avoiding criticism by passing the buck is not a solution. We don't want Linux to be "as good as" Windows, we want it to be better. And that isn't going to happen as long as we keep on responding by insisting that Windows can't do it either.
Instead of saying "Windows can't", we should be saying "Linux can!".
I'll admit I don't have many answers to this, but I'm not going to duck the issue by saying "well... Joe Sixpack couldn't set up a printer and scanner easily under Windows either."
Given a choice between two routes, neither of which offer exactly what he wants, I'm pretty sure our hypothetical Joe Sixpack would feel more comfortable going brand-name.
Besides which, I don't think the poster meant this to apply specifically to scanners and printers. He meant to ask (I think) if GNOME can be easily used to accomplish any standard, real-world, "Joe Sixpack" problems.
So I'll re-pose the original question:
"Can GNOME be used by an end-user to easily get his tasks done?"
And now me. If not, then why not? And what has to be done before he can? How long will it take? More importantly, why is this called a 1.0 release, if it can't be used to do 1.0-type tasks?
Now maybe I'm misguided. I haven't used 1.0 yet, and I'll admit I haven't used GNOME at all (well... not since very early versions). It's possible that 1.0 is capable of all this, and my point is moot. I will check it out to see.
But please don't avoid the issue like most people here tend to do.
--
- Sean
Huh.
That musta been one hell of a 5.25" floppy...
Last I saw, Win1.0 was 3+ megs.
--
- Sean
Funny thing, because you're not logged in as Matts!
--
- Sean
Maybe they did an upgrade to their server/'bandwidth in anticpation...
:-)
...or maybe not.
--
- Sean
My one and only gripe with Opera is the crash rate. On average, it (3.51) crashes once a week for me.
;)
Unfortunately, Opera adheres to W3C standards and doesn't render bad HTML very well...
That seems to be the problem right there. As soon as you get a page that has more than one <HTML> tag in it (like if someone forgot the / in the </HTML>), it starts screwing up inside. I have found that 3.21 is the most stable. 3.5x's support for CSS is nice, but not worth the drop in stability, IMHO. Luckily, I saved a copy of 3.21, which I still use.
I dunno if you can still get a copy on the official site or not -- just haven't bothered to check.
--
- Sean
I've already bought one for Windows (and is what I use 99% of the time).
I will definitely support the Linux version!
--
- Sean
You don't seem to get it. Nothing personal... by my reckoning, a lot of people don't get it.
Corel Desktop Linux (CDL?) is not aimed at you, me, or any one of the ~8 million people who already use Linux.
It is aimed at the 100+ million (ok, I'm not sure of the figure. You know what I mean) who don't use Linux. Those who use MS products, and are starting to realize they don't like it, but don't want to try Linux because of the horror stories they have heard of installation hassles, of incompatibilities, of no usable GUI, and so on.
Again, you and I know that that's mostly FUD. A lot of people don't. That's who CDL is aimed at. It's aimed at attracting more users, not converting existing ones.
And despite what you, or anyone else may think (ok, so I don't actually know what you think), I believe this is a Good Thing (tm).
The more people that use Linux, the more market there is for "big name" software to develop for it. We have begun to see this recently. Regardless of what you may think of Intel, IBM or Corel jumping on the Bandwagon, I am sure you will agree that Oracle's announcements have been good news.
And what about native support from hardware manufacturers? I think of 3D Accelerator cards in particular, but the concept applies across the board. Hey... maybe we'll start seeing LinModems soon! (joke!)
And this will be of overall benefit to the Linux community. But it won't happen until we get more users on board. It's starting, but has a ways to go yet.
And those users won't appear until we start making it easier for them. Allay their fears, counteract the FUD. Make it more familiar... make it a lookalike of Windows, for all I care. After all, I'm not going to be using it. And neither are you. Nor will most of the people here on Slashdot.
But I'm willing to bet that a lot of new Linux users will.
And that is why I am excited by this news.
Very much so.
--
- Sean
Ok.
I confess I don't know a hell ofr a lot about Java. I honestly didn't know that you could do that (stream it using HTTP).
--
- Sean
He just said that the only CDR's he had were attached to Windows boxen.
Or didn't you see that?
--
- Sean
Is it just me, or does this person have WAAAAYYYY too much free time??
--
- Sean
Yeah... you're right... I prolly shouldn't have said that... I'm not sure anymore exactly what I was disagreeing with.
/me ambles off to try and sort out his confused state of mind.
Actually, still not quite sure why I posted that in the first place... some innate desire to make my voice heard, whether I had anything useful to say or not.
Just like right now...
...
Peace, brothers!
--
- Sean