Though the policy may not have been officially changed, it was strongly signaled during the 90s (Clinton admin) that chemical alone was not a reason for a nuclear strike. Also, that would have been an attack on US, South Korean or NATO troops all comfortably under the US nuclear umbrella. So far, this is Syrian citizens and irregulars from various places.
Yeah, it's still NBC to me as well (was a battalion NBC alternate while I was in Korea in the mid 80s. Main job was RATT operator. When were you in?)
Either Germany or Korea would have gone nuclear almost immediately regardless. A number of the ADM charges were already in place. I can't believe they would have let a massive advance get past those without blowing them.
As you say, using a nuke in anger would be a huge thing. Suddenly, what had been thinkable only in case of a threat to regime survival would be much close to being just another tool of war.
I've read this same song multiple times whenever there's even the possibility of use of force going all the way back to Vietnam. There's always a report that it's all some vaster conspiracy (that never comes to fruition, somehow).
Like all the rumors of secret oil finds off of Vietnam that were "the real reason" for that war? I remember them well.
Funny. No one ever developed those vast deposits. (Or maybe they kept it secret by keeping the oil they paid millions to extract in tanks to artificially boost prices.)
Or, the oil in Iraq that Saddam Hussein was more than happy to sell the west already? Heck, he sold us a fair piece of the oil we used to power the army that invaded.
If it was all some global game to destroy Iran,then why was Obama in such a hurry to get our army out of Iraq? It was sitting right across the border from Iran. There were operating airbases there. Sure seems like if this was the great plan all along then it sure wasn't well executed.
I think your theory is horse hockey. We may get into it at some point with Iran, but it won't be because of some great vast plan. It'll be something that comes up that has an impact on US politics like the chemical weapons and the perceived "red line".
The "former official" is doing a bit of smoke screening for his friends still in the agency.
If you describe Snowden as just a "good" sysadmin, they start asking why you weren't able to prevent this. Maybe you and your people aren't so "good".
But, if you portray him as a brilliant maverick, why shoot, we can all understand how he went through the permissions like swiss cheese. We've all seen Sneakers with Redford and and the blind guy. Understandable. Sort of like getting outsmarted by Phelps and his Mission Impossible team.
So we don't have to investigate you any more. No problem..
The real impact is going to be right at first when the troops are less familiar with them. They won't know what they can and can't get away with, and won't be as practiced at working in spite of them.
And you are also right that the defense would have to have good terrain to channel the attackers into choke points that could be heavily attacked.
Korea and Germany during the Cold War were unusual in that you had forces with few limits on the amount of weapons they could have ready to use. Due to it being a long term standoff, rather than a fluid battlefield or an unexpected conflict.
Everyone knew almost exactly where the battles would be fought, had decades to prepare and knew the vagaries of the local weather to a gnats eyebrow.
Logistics or unfamiliarity with the area/weather would in many places limit the amount of chemical agents that could be used, as you say.
If you achieve a quick breakthrough and everything goes perfectly, maybe. But if you bog down any at all there's only so long you can put off everything that's neccessary that NBC makes much tougher. Maintenance, supply, etc. That ammo you loaded up in your M1A1 better not have been contaminated. etc. lather, rinse, a lot because you've gotta decontam every time you turn around (or take a dump.)
And assuming you'll always have air superiority may be warranted for the US at the present time, but it's not the case for everyone. And assuming you'll always be able to do a Patton and continuously advance may be accurate for the wars we've been in (and even he ran out of fuel), but it's a sucker bet for the long term.
The tanks started having pressurized filtration systems in the later part of the time I was doing NBC work (only a battalion level alternate, so hardly my main job) and it's a big help (The US forces in Korea still had M48s in the 80s. I'm assuming due to some of the bridges not being up to the weight of M1 and for compatibility with the South Koreans who didn't adopt the M60. The improved NBC versions of the M1 started hitting units in 85. I saw those at Ft. Hood.) . It's not a solution. IMHO You still have to come out sometime. Pop the hatch in an area heavily contaminated with persistent agent, crawl out and back in and you'll play hob getting it cleaned out enough to be sure of going back to no MOPP.
One of the problems, is NBC largely stood for NoBody Cares. They sorta do the training and say oh, yeah. We took care of that. It's hot, it's unpleasant, it's BS and we're glad it's done.
But all of the dirty battlefield manuevers I saw didn't accurately portray what you'd really face in a heavily chemical contaminated battlefield.
Maybe that's changed since I got out in 91. I hope so.
There's another factor with chemical weapons when used against troops.
When you are on defense, persistent weapons are a way to slow everything down to a crawl. Everything takes longer. The side trying to advance has to pull troops to safe areas so they can eat, etc, etc. If you're in filtered fortifications, or even just staying still you're better of than them.
You have to be wearing protective gear so all of the maintenance operations slow to a crawl. Ever tried to do electrical wiring to repair something in MOPP?
The slowing down gives a major disadvantage to a fast moving offensive. Blitzkrieg becomes sitzkrieg. Or more accurately "sweat like hell while getting done a fraction of normal"-krieg
I would say: May turn out to be apples to oranges.
We don't know yet. What is the mission? I'm not automatically opposed to military force. But, I'm a major follower of the Powell Doctrine of defining the objectives, justifications, and exit strategies beforehand.
Are we just going to shoot off a bunch of cruise missiles to make noise and show that we honored the US' "red line" on chemical weapons?
I'm not sure that's any better than continuing the current (admittedly flawed) policy.
Are we going to knock out the regime's ability to control military operations, thus leading to a rebel victory? That's sure taking sides in a major way.
Are we going to be willing to put in troops to secure chemical weapons sites in the aftermath? That's a heck of a step to open up another ground war when the US is still in Afghanistan.
Else, you could end up with the most militant Al Qaeda linked forces in charge, as they are currently about the most militarily effective against the Syrian regime. Or at least with them possessing the very chemical weapons you didn't want used.
Are you going to try to destroy the chemical weapons arsenal? Trying to do that by bombing nerve gas storage sites is a VERY dangerous way to go about it unless they are all in uninhabited areas.
If the administration is going to use military force, let's at least know what the goal is.
And "bringing democracy to Syria" sounds nice but we saw how that worked out the last time it was tried.
That came years after the fact of his Peace Prize, and in fact hasn't happened yet (Though it may happen soon).
The real factor was that this went from being an international geopolitical fiasco to being something that could have impacts on US domestic opinion because of the chemical weapons issue.
Now it's become important since were talking about perceptions and votes rather than just realities of human suffering. Can't afford to look weak on foreign policy compared to the Republicans.
We used to think that infallible truth came from the bible or the words of the Prophet. But now we know that the righteous laws of the online world are found in GoogleTube's terms of service and acceptable use policy.
There used to be horrible holy wars fought between faiths over Emacs vs VI, or MS vs Apple (And the horror of little endian vs big endian). Now there is only the eternal truth of Google.
You have now heard the word of Google (Blessings upon it's corporate charter.), netizen.
Don't let your unfaithfullness happen again or we'll turn over your info to the NSA (which we have never done and have no court mandated agreements with.)
Except mine have names and histories you can check out.
Jeff Negangard. Worked with him at a loudspeaker designer in Sidney, IL. Shotgunned his girlfriend. can't find anything on Google about it, but it's been quite some years (Late 80s, I think).
Joe Burrows, Also originally from Sidney. check it on Google. On death row for several years, commuted to life by Gov Ryan when he commuted all Illinois death sentences. Released when a witness recanted. Stories on that case ignored his past history and were very complimentary to him. I wasn't convinced even though I liked the man and and am still friends with his family.
Another still has kin living around the Homer, Illinois area, I'd rather not tick off. Maybe given the people I grew up with, you can understand that.
Another I didn't even mention above was PFC (William?) Smith on Camp Essayons Korea in 1984. He was in the survey platoon of my company HHC 6th Bn 37th Artillery. Murdered a Korean woman married to a US Army officer to take about a grand, then used it to pay his debts to shady Korean money lenders. He got up in my face a couple days after the murder when I was talking about it. In retrospect, I might have realized something was up, but not at the time.
I later met up with someone from our same unit who also transferred to Fort Hood TX (where I was stationed after I came back from Korea) that said he'd died in prison. I don't know the truth of that.
The guardsman who tried to hire a killing was my radioteletype team chief (though that was years earlier) at HHC 2 Bn 130th Infantry in Urbana, IL.
Should I continue? So far, all you are is an AC with no info. Let's hear the cases. And if they didn't get reported, why didn't you do that?
Now, anyone with half a bit of salt should be able to find out everything about me and who I am from all those connections and info I just gave. (Not that I've ever really tried to hide that.)
Maybe in the broader LGBT sphere it is. Hadn't really run into a big problem among those I know, and some of them are kinda picky about slights.
I think a lot of it is, how it's intended. When I've used it, it's not been meant as an insult.
One of them I've used it around is an over 6 ft heavily built trucker (Given my nickname, at least a couple of posters here on Slashdot will likely recognize who I'm talking about.) who could have turned me into a pretzel if shi'd been terribly ticked about it.;)
Slashdot Mirror
Though the policy may not have been officially changed, it was strongly signaled during the 90s (Clinton admin) that chemical alone was not a reason for a nuclear strike. Also, that would have been an attack on US, South Korean or NATO troops all comfortably under the US nuclear umbrella. So far, this is Syrian citizens and irregulars from various places.
Yeah, it's still NBC to me as well (was a battalion NBC alternate while I was in Korea in the mid 80s. Main job was RATT operator. When were you in?)
Either Germany or Korea would have gone nuclear almost immediately regardless. A number of the ADM charges were already in place. I can't believe they would have let a massive advance get past those without blowing them.
As you say, using a nuke in anger would be a huge thing. Suddenly, what had been thinkable only in case of a threat to regime survival would be much close to being just another tool of war.
"You read it here first."
No.
I've read this same song multiple times whenever there's even the possibility of use of force going all the way back to Vietnam. There's always a report that it's all some vaster conspiracy (that never comes to fruition, somehow).
Like all the rumors of secret oil finds off of Vietnam that were "the real reason" for that war? I remember them well.
Funny. No one ever developed those vast deposits. (Or maybe they kept it secret by keeping the oil they paid millions to extract in tanks to artificially boost prices.)
Or, the oil in Iraq that Saddam Hussein was more than happy to sell the west already? Heck, he sold us a fair piece of the oil we used to power the army that invaded.
If it was all some global game to destroy Iran,then why was Obama in such a hurry to get our army out of Iraq? It was sitting right across the border from Iran. There were operating airbases there. Sure seems like if this was the great plan all along then it sure wasn't well executed.
I think your theory is horse hockey. We may get into it at some point with Iran, but it won't be because of some great vast plan. It'll be something that comes up that has an impact on US politics like the chemical weapons and the perceived "red line".
"one 30Kiloton bomb"
So, you're saying to drop a nuke on the capital so they won't use chemical weapons?
Uh...
Listen to the doctor. Take the Xanax he prescribed, look at the pretty flowers and listen to soothing music.
What PETA doesn't know... ;)
No. Anything to do with Bad Dragon would be hard core furry porn.
Trust me.
Indeed. Anime will get you branded as a pedophile creep.
Keep it professional and put up soft core furry porn instead.
17 inch CRT. Check.
Wired ball mouse. Check.
Pot belly. Check.
Graying hair. Check.
I resemble that remark!
The "former official" is doing a bit of smoke screening for his friends still in the agency.
If you describe Snowden as just a "good" sysadmin, they start asking why you weren't able to prevent this. Maybe you and your people aren't so "good".
But, if you portray him as a brilliant maverick, why shoot, we can all understand how he went through the permissions like swiss cheese. We've all seen Sneakers with Redford and and the blind guy. Understandable. Sort of like getting outsmarted by Phelps and his Mission Impossible team.
So we don't have to investigate you any more. No problem..
"This is why you don't hire brilliant people for jobs like this. You hire smart people. Brilliant people get you in trouble."
And this managerial attitude, my friends, explains much of the mediocrity and don't give a f*ck attitude we see in government jobs.
Oh well. The thought was there, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt. ;)
Good to know that the gear has improved.
The real impact is going to be right at first when the troops are less familiar with them. They won't know what they can and can't get away with, and won't be as practiced at working in spite of them.
And you are also right that the defense would have to have good terrain to channel the attackers into choke points that could be heavily attacked.
Korea and Germany during the Cold War were unusual in that you had forces with few limits on the amount of weapons they could have ready to use. Due to it being a long term standoff, rather than a fluid battlefield or an unexpected conflict.
Everyone knew almost exactly where the battles would be fought, had decades to prepare and knew the vagaries of the local weather to a gnats eyebrow.
Logistics or unfamiliarity with the area/weather would in many places limit the amount of chemical agents that could be used, as you say.
Gotta disagree with you.
If you achieve a quick breakthrough and everything goes perfectly, maybe. But if you bog down any at all there's only so long you can put off everything that's neccessary that NBC makes much tougher. Maintenance, supply, etc. That ammo you loaded up in your M1A1 better not have been contaminated. etc. lather, rinse, a lot because you've gotta decontam every time you turn around (or take a dump.)
And assuming you'll always have air superiority may be warranted for the US at the present time, but it's not the case for everyone. And assuming you'll always be able to do a Patton and continuously advance may be accurate for the wars we've been in (and even he ran out of fuel), but it's a sucker bet for the long term.
The tanks started having pressurized filtration systems in the later part of the time I was doing NBC work (only a battalion level alternate, so hardly my main job) and it's a big help (The US forces in Korea still had M48s in the 80s. I'm assuming due to some of the bridges not being up to the weight of M1 and for compatibility with the South Koreans who didn't adopt the M60. The improved NBC versions of the M1 started hitting units in 85. I saw those at Ft. Hood.) . It's not a solution. IMHO You still have to come out sometime. Pop the hatch in an area heavily contaminated with persistent agent, crawl out and back in and you'll play hob getting it cleaned out enough to be sure of going back to no MOPP.
One of the problems, is NBC largely stood for NoBody Cares. They sorta do the training and say oh, yeah. We took care of that. It's hot, it's unpleasant, it's BS and we're glad it's done.
But all of the dirty battlefield manuevers I saw didn't accurately portray what you'd really face in a heavily chemical contaminated battlefield.
Maybe that's changed since I got out in 91. I hope so.
There's another factor with chemical weapons when used against troops.
When you are on defense, persistent weapons are a way to slow everything down to a crawl. Everything takes longer. The side trying to advance has to pull troops to safe areas so they can eat, etc, etc. If you're in filtered fortifications, or even just staying still you're better of than them.
You have to be wearing protective gear so all of the maintenance operations slow to a crawl. Ever tried to do electrical wiring to repair something in MOPP?
The slowing down gives a major disadvantage to a fast moving offensive. Blitzkrieg becomes sitzkrieg. Or more accurately "sweat like hell while getting done a fraction of normal"-krieg
Well played, sir!
I'm guessing he was playing along by saying "Stripes", in the same way Bluto said "Germans".
I would say: May turn out to be apples to oranges.
We don't know yet. What is the mission? I'm not automatically opposed to military force. But, I'm a major follower of the Powell Doctrine of defining the objectives, justifications, and exit strategies beforehand.
Are we just going to shoot off a bunch of cruise missiles to make noise and show that we honored the US' "red line" on chemical weapons?
I'm not sure that's any better than continuing the current (admittedly flawed) policy.
Are we going to knock out the regime's ability to control military operations, thus leading to a rebel victory? That's sure taking sides in a major way.
Are we going to be willing to put in troops to secure chemical weapons sites in the aftermath? That's a heck of a step to open up another ground war when the US is still in Afghanistan.
Else, you could end up with the most militant Al Qaeda linked forces in charge, as they are currently about the most militarily effective against the Syrian regime. Or at least with them possessing the very chemical weapons you didn't want used.
Are you going to try to destroy the chemical weapons arsenal? Trying to do that by bombing nerve gas storage sites is a VERY dangerous way to go about it unless they are all in uninhabited areas.
If the administration is going to use military force, let's at least know what the goal is.
And "bringing democracy to Syria" sounds nice but we saw how that worked out the last time it was tried.
Or to use the terms of a previous generation: "Those statements are no longer operative."
That came years after the fact of his Peace Prize, and in fact hasn't happened yet (Though it may happen soon).
The real factor was that this went from being an international geopolitical fiasco to being something that could have impacts on US domestic opinion because of the chemical weapons issue.
Now it's become important since were talking about perceptions and votes rather than just realities of human suffering. Can't afford to look weak on foreign policy compared to the Republicans.
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"
"Germans?"
"Forget it, he's rolling."
You poor deprived soul.
You've never experienced the olfactory joys of an outhouse.
So, you're saying your GUI was written for tabbed intercourse?
The whole world is now jealous of you.
Paper? Why you young whippersnappers have it so easy.
We had to use corncobs. Use a couple of the red ones to get the worst, and then use a white one to see if it was clean yet.
And then they ruined everything by coming out with that commie propaganda called the Sears Catalog!
We used to think that infallible truth came from the bible or the words of the Prophet. But now we know that the righteous laws of the online world are found in GoogleTube's terms of service and acceptable use policy.
There used to be horrible holy wars fought between faiths over Emacs vs VI, or MS vs Apple (And the horror of little endian vs big endian). Now there is only the eternal truth of Google.
You have now heard the word of Google (Blessings upon it's corporate charter.), netizen.
Don't let your unfaithfullness happen again or we'll turn over your info to the NSA (which we have never done and have no court mandated agreements with.)
Except mine have names and histories you can check out.
Jeff Negangard. Worked with him at a loudspeaker designer in Sidney, IL. Shotgunned his girlfriend. can't find anything on Google about it, but it's been quite some years (Late 80s, I think).
Joe Burrows, Also originally from Sidney. check it on Google. On death row for several years, commuted to life by Gov Ryan when he commuted all Illinois death sentences. Released when a witness recanted. Stories on that case ignored his past history and were very complimentary to him. I wasn't convinced even though I liked the man and and am still friends with his family.
Another still has kin living around the Homer, Illinois area, I'd rather not tick off. Maybe given the people I grew up with, you can understand that.
Another I didn't even mention above was PFC (William?) Smith on Camp Essayons Korea in 1984. He was in the survey platoon of my company HHC 6th Bn 37th Artillery. Murdered a Korean woman married to a US Army officer to take about a grand, then used it to pay his debts to shady Korean money lenders. He got up in my face a couple days after the murder when I was talking about it. In retrospect, I might have realized something was up, but not at the time.
I later met up with someone from our same unit who also transferred to Fort Hood TX (where I was stationed after I came back from Korea) that said he'd died in prison. I don't know the truth of that.
The guardsman who tried to hire a killing was my radioteletype team chief (though that was years earlier) at HHC 2 Bn 130th Infantry in Urbana, IL.
Should I continue? So far, all you are is an AC with no info. Let's hear the cases. And if they didn't get reported, why didn't you do that?
Now, anyone with half a bit of salt should be able to find out everything about me and who I am from all those connections and info I just gave. (Not that I've ever really tried to hide that.)
Maybe in the broader LGBT sphere it is. Hadn't really run into a big problem among those I know, and some of them are kinda picky about slights.
I think a lot of it is, how it's intended. When I've used it, it's not been meant as an insult.
One of them I've used it around is an over 6 ft heavily built trucker (Given my nickname, at least a couple of posters here on Slashdot will likely recognize who I'm talking about.) who could have turned me into a pretzel if shi'd been terribly ticked about it. ;)