Since you're writing out ObjC objects, can my perl script read your stdout from stdin? (I'm guessing: no, unless you write some routines in perl that will let it read your serialization format. Repeat for ps, sed, awk, grep, etc until you find you've hacked all of shellutils to be OO.)
>> Monad scripts can pipe out and pipe in objects > This is trivial to implement with a programming language
Monad has nothing to do with a programming language per se, although the examples use C# (you can just as easily use any other.NET language). The point of Monad is that it is a OO shell+shellutils.
> $STDIN, $STDOUT and $STDERR are "screen scrapers"?
No, they are file handles. But reading text which is really program output from stdin and then using regexes to make sense out of it _is_ screenscraping. A point that has been lost on the vast majority of commenters on this thread.
Are you always this dense or did you just lose a bet? Try manipulating ps's output _as objects_, not text read in from stdin with regexes and then converted to objects.
Let me give you a clue: this has NOTHING to do with Python, or Ruby, or any scripting language. The point that zoomed over your head is that the shell+environment is object-oriented, making this possible. Whereas python works in an environment where utilities pass text files around in pipes. Rewrite bash and the GNU toolset, and hey presto, Python can do it too.
Why yes it can and the dumb ass don't know the difference between screen scraping and stdio
I'm quite sure the grandparent did know the difference. Screenscraping is the term used by the Monad devs for 'reading stdio and using regexes to parse it all out', as opposed to the OO-ish way of passing objects along. It might offend your taste in vocabulary but the word in this context is quite evocative of what it means.
The neat thing is that Monad is not just a scripting language so comparisons with Python's pickling and ObjC are rather irrelevant: it's a shell+command suite. Monad's ps, for example emits objects so you won't have to 'scrape' values out of ps's output (although you still can for back compat). Try doing that on Python+anything, really.
Agree. I'm going to wonder what impression 'government distribution' of Linux is going to create on the common man. Especially since anything else the government does or distributes -- being it statefunded education or condoms -- is perceived as being low-quality and inferior by the masses and tolerated simply because it's free.
I'm willing to bet the BBC wouldn't mind -- not unless they've sold DVD rights to a MPAA thug^Wmember. In fact if Britain wasn't the sick man of Europe when it came to Broadband, I'm sure they'd be streaming their drama over the net, just like they do with radio.
If you're on Windows, use the MOOX builds. I'm not sure why, but I'm guessing the compile flags make the timing bug responsible for the overlap go away.
Replying to my own post: it seems it isn't quite as bad as it sounds: MS' definition of "Internet-based services" are hooks to MSN Money services, not internet banking -- which you do direct with your bank as long as they support it.
Internet-Based Services are features of this version of Microsoft Money that give you the ability to perform certain Internet-based financial tasks through the Microsoft Money client software. Your ability to perform certain Internet-based Services (such as Internet-based banking) may require that you obtain these services separately from your financial institution, with or without a fee.
Internet-based services available for two (2) years after activation of Microsoft Money or 1 September 2007, whichever is earlier. See the Microsoft Money Internet-based services policy http://money.msn.com/Money/2005/GBR/IBSP.asp for details.
If you don't upgrade, you'll be able to use the software as before, but not the Internet-based services (AFAIK).
> violently opposing religions (Hinduism and Islam)
Rubbish. Hindus and Muslims have coexisted *quite* well for over 800 years in the Indian subcontinent (birthing 'fusion' cooking, music, art, architecture and language in the process). A lot of the current Hindu/Muslim angst has to do with the scars of partition (which is pretty traumatic for any country, ask China about Taiwan), which was a political convenience 50 years ago.
Hindus and Muslims in South Asia are more alike than they are different.
Anyway- so India is diverse. And how is this is a bad thing? Or should every nation be as racially monolithic as Japan?
> They throw away their best engineers, who graduated from a massive, publicly-funded university system!
Some of the best engineers *leave* because its a free country and the tradeoff of living in India isn't worth it to them. What do you think the Indian government should do, send 'em to the gulag?
Not all of India's university system today is publicly funded: besides many privately run colleges and universities, the IIMs (not sure about the IITs but they huge amounts from alums) today are self-sustaining.
> Look at a street in Tokyo, then look at one in Calcutta.
Actually, look at Shanghai versus any Indian city. As I understand it: if you are a poor farmer from China's west looking to make a little more in the city, you need a work-permit to even enter Shanghai, and these work-permits have to renewed annually.
In India, a poor farmer wanting to make a little more comes into a city and works. Freedom of intra-border movement. That pesky freedom thing again.
(Unchecked rural migration is of course one of the largest *external* factors that make increase pressure on India's cities. However, Indian government and bureaucracy is hugely inefficient and corrupt and by far that is the biggest factor, but hey, in a democracy, people get the government they deserve.)
> most of India, both in land mass and population, is third world
How can a 'land mass' be third-world? Nations or economies can be, though, and here India, while far from developed, has quite firmly left the days of least-developed (which is the modern sense of 'third-world') behind.
Don Box's introduction to Indigo in the Jan 2004 issue of MSDN (available on the web since early November 2003) says as much:
As part of Windows Longhorn, Indigo is available to every Longhorn application. Indigo will also be available as a separate download for Windows XP and Windows Server 2003.
Use the Slashfix extension (which is a partial fix), or (on Windows) try the MOOX builds -- they don't seem to have the timing bug that causes the problem.
I agree about the tons of ads in GoDaddy, but it's bad only while you're checking out stuff (so unless you buy domains on a daily basis you should be fine). Never got any spam from them either, their service (including helping out with a borked transfer from Netsol) has been excellent, and their automated interface is very good, unlike (say) Register.com which charges a bundle but has one of the lousiest web faces I know.
> You can create a protocol handler for arbitrary URL protocols
My guess is that he wants the file listing in-place within the Finder, so files can be accessed *in the Finder* transparently over ssh. Breaking out an external application by invoking a protocol handler would (at least under Win32) break the "transparent" experience, I think OS X will behave the same way.
Don't know about the Mac, but Window's shell (explorer) makes it fairly easy to write extensions. There's already one for WebDAV, for example, and a coworker once wrote a windows shell extension for file browsing over ssh, using pscp (or plink, I don't remember) to take care of the underlying ssh work. Surely someone could do the same for the Mac?
Thanks for correcting me (and it's rather alarming that my earlier comment is now +4 Informative). However, the general point still is valid -- browser developers and the community do not wait for the ISO/IEC to "bless" HTML -- a W3C TR is a de facto standard. In fact, "ISO HTML" (which based on a quick reading seems to be a subset of HTML 4.01) is AFAIK not widely used on the public web.
In fact, if this general point was not valid, then in the context of this thread (esp Timesprout's comments) one could argue that IE, by supporting HTML 4.01, is in fact standards-compliant since it complies with and exceeds de jure standards like "ISO HTML", thus making Timesprout's original assertion -- that IE is a standards-compliant browser -- true.
The point here is that IE does not follow de facto standards and in doing so has held back progress of the browser platform.
Parent is technically correct. HTML is not a standard in the classic ISO/IEC sense, neither is it (the modern versions at least) an IETF standards-track RFC. It is a W3C TR (Technical Recommendation) which is what passes for "standard" in the biz. User-agents who render HTML SHOULD comply with the TR although this has never been an absolute (MUST) requirement, except with the alistapart crowd -- and the kneejerk/. standards brigade;-). OTOH user-agents which render HTML are also HTTP clients, and they must follow RFC 2616 and friends or be called "broken".
The HTML TRs document the semantics for each tag (although the tags themselves have bits of mostly legacy presentation oriented attributes). How each browser implements it is upto it -- for example, a browser targeted to Indic cultures may choose to boldface EM text since Indic scripts have no notion of italics.
On the other hand, browsers claiming CSS Vx support are obliged to render stuff *exactly* the way the specs mandate, and the CSS specs are fairly detailed on this score. And here, IMO, criticism of IE is valid, not because MS does not support every last bit of the CSS standard (no one does) but because they have shown _no inclination_ to fix their glaring omissions even years after IE6's release (a.k.a the NN4 syndrome), making life miserable for web devs everywhere.
Not exactly. Ampheta's default interface looks like Radio's -- it has full feed text but not DHTML click-to-collapse/Mark Read. Worse, its X button removes that feed from your sub list.
There is another skin, but it's frames-based and defeats the your original requirement IMO.
If you're handy with a scripting language, I'd recommend AmphetaDesk or Radio Userland. Both run as HTTP daemons so any browser can connect. And both can be hacked to present the list any way you want (AmphetaDesk via Perl and Radio via UserTalk). Search for the free Radio 7 if you don't feel like paying for the non-free Radio 8.
Slashdot Mirror
Since you're writing out ObjC objects, can my perl script read your stdout from stdin? (I'm guessing: no, unless you write some routines in perl that will let it read your serialization format. Repeat for ps, sed, awk, grep, etc until you find you've hacked all of shellutils to be OO.)
.NET language). The point of Monad is that it is a OO shell+shellutils.
>> Monad scripts can pipe out and pipe in objects
> This is trivial to implement with a programming language
Monad has nothing to do with a programming language per se, although the examples use C# (you can just as easily use any other
> $STDIN, $STDOUT and $STDERR are "screen scrapers"?
No, they are file handles. But reading text which is really program output from stdin and then using regexes to make sense out of it _is_ screenscraping. A point that has been lost on the vast majority of commenters on this thread.
Are you always this dense or did you just lose a bet? Try manipulating ps's output _as objects_, not text read in from stdin with regexes and then converted to objects.
Let me give you a clue: this has NOTHING to do with Python, or Ruby, or any scripting language. The point that zoomed over your head is that the shell+environment is object-oriented, making this possible. Whereas python works in an environment where utilities pass text files around in pipes. Rewrite bash and the GNU toolset, and hey presto, Python can do it too.
Why yes it can and the dumb ass don't know the difference between screen scraping and stdio
I'm quite sure the grandparent did know the difference. Screenscraping is the term used by the Monad devs for 'reading stdio and using regexes to parse it all out', as opposed to the OO-ish way of passing objects along. It might offend your taste in vocabulary but the word in this context is quite evocative of what it means.
The neat thing is that Monad is not just a scripting language so comparisons with Python's pickling and ObjC are rather irrelevant: it's a shell+command suite. Monad's ps, for example emits objects so you won't have to 'scrape' values out of ps's output (although you still can for back compat). Try doing that on Python+anything, really.
Agree. I'm going to wonder what impression 'government distribution' of Linux is going to create on the common man. Especially since anything else the government does or distributes -- being it statefunded education or condoms -- is perceived as being low-quality and inferior by the masses and tolerated simply because it's free.
I'm willing to bet the BBC wouldn't mind -- not unless they've sold DVD rights to a MPAA thug^Wmember. In fact if Britain wasn't the sick man of Europe when it came to Broadband, I'm sure they'd be streaming their drama over the net, just like they do with radio.
Geronimo was forked off JBoss because a number of developers found JBoss Inc difficult to work with.
If you're on Windows, use the MOOX builds. I'm not sure why, but I'm guessing the compile flags make the timing bug responsible for the overlap go away.
From http://www.microsoft.com/uk/homepc/money/ProductDe tails.aspx?pid=003:
Internet-based services available for two (2) years after activation of Microsoft Money or 1 September 2007, whichever is earlier. See the Microsoft Money Internet-based services policy http://money.msn.com/Money/2005/GBR/IBSP.asp for details.
If you don't upgrade, you'll be able to use the software as before, but not the Internet-based services (AFAIK).
> violently opposing religions (Hinduism and Islam)
Rubbish. Hindus and Muslims have coexisted *quite* well for over 800 years in the Indian subcontinent (birthing 'fusion' cooking, music, art, architecture and language in the process). A lot of the current Hindu/Muslim angst has to do with the scars of partition (which is pretty traumatic for any country, ask China about Taiwan), which was a political convenience 50 years ago.
Hindus and Muslims in South Asia are more alike than they are different.
Anyway- so India is diverse. And how is this is a bad thing? Or should every nation be as racially monolithic as Japan?
> They throw away their best engineers, who graduated from a massive, publicly-funded university system!
Some of the best engineers *leave* because its a free country and the tradeoff of living in India isn't worth it to them. What do you think the Indian government should do, send 'em to the gulag?
Not all of India's university system today is publicly funded: besides many privately run colleges and universities, the IIMs (not sure about the IITs but they huge amounts from alums) today are self-sustaining.
> Look at a street in Tokyo, then look at one in Calcutta.
Actually, look at Shanghai versus any Indian city. As I understand it: if you are a poor farmer from China's west looking to make a little more in the city, you need a work-permit to even enter Shanghai, and these work-permits have to renewed annually.
In India, a poor farmer wanting to make a little more comes into a city and works. Freedom of intra-border movement. That pesky freedom thing again.
(Unchecked rural migration is of course one of the largest *external* factors that make increase pressure on India's cities. However, Indian government and bureaucracy is hugely inefficient and corrupt and by far that is the biggest factor, but hey, in a democracy, people get the government they deserve.)
> most of India, both in land mass and population, is third world
How can a 'land mass' be third-world? Nations or economies can be, though, and here India, while far from developed, has quite firmly left the days of least-developed (which is the modern sense of 'third-world') behind.
Indigo was supposed to be available for Windows XP and Windows 2003 ever since it was announced.
Don Box's introduction to Indigo in the Jan 2004 issue of MSDN (available on the web since early November 2003) says as much:
Use the Slashfix extension (which is a partial fix), or (on Windows) try the MOOX builds -- they don't seem to have the timing bug that causes the problem.
I agree about the tons of ads in GoDaddy, but it's bad only while you're checking out stuff (so unless you buy domains on a daily basis you should be fine). Never got any spam from them either, their service (including helping out with a borked transfer from Netsol) has been excellent, and their automated interface is very good, unlike (say) Register.com which charges a bundle but has one of the lousiest web faces I know.
I'm using this quick hack to fix slashdot (doesn't fix tabs loaded in the background though:
x -extension.html
http://www.hardgrok.org/blog/item/slashfix-firefo
Exposing _anything_ as a "lettered" drive on Win32 is not trivial, but it isn't rocket science either.
> You can create a protocol handler for arbitrary URL protocols
My guess is that he wants the file listing in-place within the Finder, so files can be accessed *in the Finder* transparently over ssh. Breaking out an external application by invoking a protocol handler would (at least under Win32) break the "transparent" experience, I think OS X will behave the same way.
Don't know about the Mac, but Window's shell (explorer) makes it fairly easy to write extensions. There's already one for WebDAV, for example, and a coworker once wrote a windows shell extension for file browsing over ssh, using pscp (or plink, I don't remember) to take care of the underlying ssh work. Surely someone could do the same for the Mac?
HSBC in India still runs OS/2 1.3 on its ATMs (that's the (c) Microsoft version).
Queer enough,even slashdot doesnt render properly in FF.
:-\.
That's because of Bug 217527. And no, it won't be fixed in Firefox 1.0. Can't see a 'best viewed on Firefox' on Slashdot anytime soon
Thanks for correcting me (and it's rather alarming that my earlier comment is now +4 Informative). However, the general point still is valid -- browser developers and the community do not wait for the ISO/IEC to "bless" HTML -- a W3C TR is a de facto standard. In fact, "ISO HTML" (which based on a quick reading seems to be a subset of HTML 4.01) is AFAIK not widely used on the public web.
In fact, if this general point was not valid, then in the context of this thread (esp Timesprout's comments) one could argue that IE, by supporting HTML 4.01, is in fact standards-compliant since it complies with and exceeds de jure standards like "ISO HTML", thus making Timesprout's original assertion -- that IE is a standards-compliant browser -- true.
The point here is that IE does not follow de facto standards and in doing so has held back progress of the browser platform.
Parent is technically correct. HTML is not a standard in the classic ISO/IEC sense, neither is it (the modern versions at least) an IETF standards-track RFC. It is a W3C TR (Technical Recommendation) which is what passes for "standard" in the biz. User-agents who render HTML SHOULD comply with the TR although this has never been an absolute (MUST) requirement, except with the alistapart crowd -- and the kneejerk /. standards brigade ;-). OTOH user-agents which render HTML are also HTTP clients, and they must follow RFC 2616 and friends or be called "broken".
The HTML TRs document the semantics for each tag (although the tags themselves have bits of mostly legacy presentation oriented attributes). How each browser implements it is upto it -- for example, a browser targeted to Indic cultures may choose to boldface EM text since Indic scripts have no notion of italics.
On the other hand, browsers claiming CSS Vx support are obliged to render stuff *exactly* the way the specs mandate, and the CSS specs are fairly detailed on this score. And here, IMO, criticism of IE is valid, not because MS does not support every last bit of the CSS standard (no one does) but because they have shown _no inclination_ to fix their glaring omissions even years after IE6's release (a.k.a the NN4 syndrome), making life miserable for web devs everywhere.
Not exactly. Ampheta's default interface looks like Radio's -- it has full feed text but not DHTML click-to-collapse/Mark Read. Worse, its X button removes that feed from your sub list.
There is another skin, but it's frames-based and defeats the your original requirement IMO.
If you're handy with a scripting language, I'd recommend AmphetaDesk or Radio Userland. Both run as HTTP daemons so any browser can connect. And both can be hacked to present the list any way you want (AmphetaDesk via Perl and Radio via UserTalk). Search for the free Radio 7 if you don't feel like paying for the non-free Radio 8.
> Program skins with "browser tags" and "embedded xml"?
Believe it or not, Mozilla uses the same technique. Not all of us believe application design reached its pinnacle with ed, you know.