I agree that everyone should have the opportunity to participate in the process of forming public policy, but I think we are mistaken if we believe that 1) everyone would necessarily take part, and 2) it all boils down to simply voting.
Full participation involves going through a comprehensive process of understanding issues well before voting on them. A good system for direct democracy must take this into account, or else it's as worthless as public opinion polls.
Further, many anti-democracy types assume that "dummies" would end up making all the policy decisions--this of course is preposterous, as it assumes participative interest of all people (and we know that the true morons won't want to do this work) and even assumes that competent citizens will even want to work on issues that don't interest them, and this is also preposterous.
What a good system for direct democracy boils down to is competent citizenry working on policy issues that interest them in some way, and this would augment what the elected representatives do. 100,000 heads are better than 535, right?
For us mere mortals who've got cool inventive ideas, check out ShouldExist.org. This web spot could very well become a great breeding ground if enough good minds participated.
I've recently had several "individuals" associated with drug-selling web sites sign up to be members of my democracy-related discussion board. They haven't left actual spams... yet. In case they are using automated means to sign up, I could employ a visual verification technique for new member accounts--that *may* help with reducing new accounts like these.
Y2K +5 Reply: A lot of the jobs are back through the natural regenerative effect of the IT industry, but those who gave up at +3 and +4 are now unhireable. The jobs go to those who actually thoroughly love computer science and didn't get into the profession for the wrong reasons.
The ITAA represents IT organizations of companies, not the programmer community. Professional programmers do not yet have their own association, as doctors or lawyers do, and this continues to be a great shame.
"The plan calls for a media campaign to...'reduce substantially the level and amount of criticism from computer scientists and other security experts about the fallibility of electronic voting systems.'"
IS Managers already experience extreme trouble with herding us programmer cats. And you have the audacity to think that your little PR campaign can do that with any ease? Geez, Louise.
...the "contempt"...shown by the PHB's towards the techies far exceeds any the techies have ever shown.
And the PHBs' contempt can be explained rather simply. They don't like the up-and-coming techs who have become brave enough (although they've always been smart enough) to second-guess their PHBs' frequent short-sighted decisions--and thus would rather outsource to those who shrink from saying anything that counters their decisions (i.e., mental slaves). Techies are generally much more honest folk than the PHBs. And this honesty naturally up-ends PHB tactics. PHBs don't like that and feel it usurps their authority and threatens their jobs.
...PHBs with MBA's listening to the 'geeks' too seriously.
If you mean PHBs with MBA's listening to the overhyping 'magazine geeks' too seriously, then I would agree. Ordinary garden-variety geeks obviously don't have any Star Wars hex going over PHBs.
Yes, they do. By their very nature (at this time, anyway), the web user interface can never nearly be as potentially rich as a native client. Consider heavy-duty data collection applications as an example. And you're right that the performance is an issue as well.
However, managers all over (from what I can tell) are clamoring for getting their apps to be web-based. Why? Less administration (esp. at the client workstations), or at least the perception of this. This is what they see.
Meanwhile, "weblication" development technologies are moving forward. While they may never really catch up to what's possible with native clients, it will increasingly make sense to consider such technologies for more and more projects.
The dirty little secret about PHP as compared to CF, JSP or ASP is that it's not scalable.
For small and medium web apps (which the vast majority of web apps are), this "fact" is irrelevant. Besides, there are more and more add-ons becoming available that will help with scalability issues, not to mention that PHP will interact with Java objects. On top of this, it's usually the design of the app itself that matters most when it comes to scalability factors.
Rhakka, methinks you just did a mind-meld on me.:) What you just expressed are several of the ideas behind Democracy 2.0 and a few similar efforts around the world.
On the other hand, I do have to shrug when I envision having a President handling diplomacy. Yikes! In terms of how it's handled now, I'd have to ask, "What diplomacy!?".;)
Re:why not direct democracy
on
Public Net-work
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Because mob-rule (pure democracy) is a bad idea.
Direct democracy does not have to mean "mobocracy" or pure majoritarian rule. Individual freedoms and minority rights can indeed be respected and protected in reconciliation with community interests. Beware the hobgoblins of mob rule, for their existence can be entirely attributed to the deep-seated fears of an arrogant ruling class, their devotees and back-door power brokers.
Re:The real problem with "E-Democracy"
on
Public Net-work
·
· Score: 1
Grandparent poster's point is that 'e-democracy' removes these communication limitations, thereby removing orderly dissemination of the democratic process
This of course, presumes that e-democracy mechanisms cannot evolve to put the Internet-equivalent of parliamentary rules into place. I strongly feel that this evolution is inevitable.
Anyone interested in meeting up for this topic?
on
Public Net-work
·
· Score: 2, Informative
Meetup has a topic for E-democracy. From the description, it reads "Meetup with other local citizens to discuss how technology can enhance the democratic process." Who better than Slashdotters to thoroughly engage their fellow citizens on this very important topic?
Welcome, visitor from the future. By the way, did the US end up catching bin Laden? The suspense is terrible... I hope it lasts.
Re:There are a number of components to this
on
The "Techie" Vote?
·
· Score: 1
For the past few years, I've been speaking to friends (and others who will listen) about the coming techno-civic nexxus. It's when our new interconnectedness really begins to change everything beyond our current comprehension, including what we currently know as "democracy."
any "techie" (or anyone) who thinks that it is ok to make a webpage that looks like that doesn't have my sympathy regarding the loss of his job
You may also want to stay away from the Programmers Guild, a group of wannabes who think unionization is the answer to all our profession's ills. So imaginative, NOT.
As any large and economically important collective, "Techies" have an influence in politics. As their experience, wealth, and age grows, so does their influence and interest in politics.
Hmmm... could this be why some force is attempting to deplete the American programming profession?
Don't these spammers already know my shaft is enormous? And its owner has no issue with its expansion on demand? Perhaps they should start offering manuals on new unique ways on how to use it.
Slashdot Mirror
Offhand, I see this weblication as a good approach for:
I agree that everyone should have the opportunity to participate in the process of forming public policy, but I think we are mistaken if we believe that 1) everyone would necessarily take part, and 2) it all boils down to simply voting.
Full participation involves going through a comprehensive process of understanding issues well before voting on them. A good system for direct democracy must take this into account, or else it's as worthless as public opinion polls.
Further, many anti-democracy types assume that "dummies" would end up making all the policy decisions--this of course is preposterous, as it assumes participative interest of all people (and we know that the true morons won't want to do this work) and even assumes that competent citizens will even want to work on issues that don't interest them, and this is also preposterous.
What a good system for direct democracy boils down to is competent citizenry working on policy issues that interest them in some way, and this would augment what the elected representatives do. 100,000 heads are better than 535, right?
For us mere mortals who've got cool inventive ideas, check out ShouldExist.org. This web spot could very well become a great breeding ground if enough good minds participated.
I've recently had several "individuals" associated with drug-selling web sites sign up to be members of my democracy-related discussion board. They haven't left actual spams... yet. In case they are using automated means to sign up, I could employ a visual verification technique for new member accounts--that *may* help with reducing new accounts like these.
Y2K +5 Reply: A lot of the jobs are back through the natural regenerative effect of the IT industry, but those who gave up at +3 and +4 are now unhireable. The jobs go to those who actually thoroughly love computer science and didn't get into the profession for the wrong reasons.
What gives [the ITAA] the right to speak for us?
The ITAA represents IT organizations of companies, not the programmer community. Professional programmers do not yet have their own association, as doctors or lawyers do, and this continues to be a great shame.
Also, if you have a web site, display a Verified Voting banner on it.
I think the Feds should sentence the man to a Congressional Medal of Honor and a ticker-tape parade. Serious.
"The plan calls for a media campaign to...'reduce substantially the level and amount of criticism from computer scientists and other security experts about the fallibility of electronic voting systems.'"
IS Managers already experience extreme trouble with herding us programmer cats. And you have the audacity to think that your little PR campaign can do that with any ease? Geez, Louise.
And the PHBs' contempt can be explained rather simply. They don't like the up-and-coming techs who have become brave enough (although they've always been smart enough) to second-guess their PHBs' frequent short-sighted decisions--and thus would rather outsource to those who shrink from saying anything that counters their decisions (i.e., mental slaves). Techies are generally much more honest folk than the PHBs. And this honesty naturally up-ends PHB tactics. PHBs don't like that and feel it usurps their authority and threatens their jobs.
If you mean PHBs with MBA's listening to the overhyping 'magazine geeks' too seriously, then I would agree. Ordinary garden-variety geeks obviously don't have any Star Wars hex going over PHBs.
IMHO, web-based applications suck.
Yes, they do. By their very nature (at this time, anyway), the web user interface can never nearly be as potentially rich as a native client. Consider heavy-duty data collection applications as an example. And you're right that the performance is an issue as well.
However, managers all over (from what I can tell) are clamoring for getting their apps to be web-based. Why? Less administration (esp. at the client workstations), or at least the perception of this. This is what they see.
Meanwhile, "weblication" development technologies are moving forward. While they may never really catch up to what's possible with native clients, it will increasingly make sense to consider such technologies for more and more projects.
well the majority of american voters at one time supported the enslavement of black people. They also supported geneocide for native americans.
Please provide us links to the scientific polls conducted in those earlier times that drew these conclusions. Sheesh.
The dirty little secret about PHP as compared to CF, JSP or ASP is that it's not scalable.
For small and medium web apps (which the vast majority of web apps are), this "fact" is irrelevant. Besides, there are more and more add-ons becoming available that will help with scalability issues, not to mention that PHP will interact with Java objects. On top of this, it's usually the design of the app itself that matters most when it comes to scalability factors.
Rhakka, methinks you just did a mind-meld on me. :) What you just expressed are several of the ideas behind Democracy 2.0 and a few similar efforts around the world.
On the other hand, I do have to shrug when I envision having a President handling diplomacy. Yikes! In terms of how it's handled now, I'd have to ask, "What diplomacy!?". ;)
Because mob-rule (pure democracy) is a bad idea.
Direct democracy does not have to mean "mobocracy" or pure majoritarian rule. Individual freedoms and minority rights can indeed be respected and protected in reconciliation with community interests. Beware the hobgoblins of mob rule, for their existence can be entirely attributed to the deep-seated fears of an arrogant ruling class, their devotees and back-door power brokers.
Grandparent poster's point is that 'e-democracy' removes these communication limitations, thereby removing orderly dissemination of the democratic process
This of course, presumes that e-democracy mechanisms cannot evolve to put the Internet-equivalent of parliamentary rules into place. I strongly feel that this evolution is inevitable.
Meetup has a topic for E-democracy. From the description, it reads "Meetup with other local citizens to discuss how technology can enhance the democratic process." Who better than Slashdotters to thoroughly engage their fellow citizens on this very important topic?
Welcome, visitor from the future. By the way, did the US end up catching bin Laden? The suspense is terrible... I hope it lasts.
For the past few years, I've been speaking to friends (and others who will listen) about the coming techno-civic nexxus. It's when our new interconnectedness really begins to change everything beyond our current comprehension, including what we currently know as "democracy."
any "techie" (or anyone) who thinks that it is ok to make a webpage that looks like that doesn't have my sympathy regarding the loss of his job
You may also want to stay away from the Programmers Guild, a group of wannabes who think unionization is the answer to all our profession's ills. So imaginative, NOT.
As any large and economically important collective, "Techies" have an influence in politics. As their experience, wealth, and age grows, so does their influence and interest in politics.
Hmmm... could this be why some force is attempting to deplete the American programming profession?
Don't these spammers already know my shaft is enormous? And its owner has no issue with its expansion on demand? Perhaps they should start offering manuals on new unique ways on how to use it.
Can flash mobs be used for Darl lynchings? This man and his rotten company are out of f*cking control.
Nutrasweet is perfectly safe.