PHBs Getting "Secret" IT Training

That's nothing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 09:42 · Score: 3, Funny

I know of a systems admin doing the same! - posted anonymously to protect the guilty.

Re:That's nothing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:21 · Score: 0

So do I. Even basics (like how to turn on). Wonder how prevalent it is among the supposedly 'computer literate'.
Re:That's nothing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 12:14 · Score: 0

Ironically, I DO know squat, but I have yet to find out what PHB means.
Re:That's nothing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 12:24 · Score: 0

it means parahydrogenatedbromide
Re:That's nothing by L1nuxGuy · 2003-10-13 12:55 · Score: 1

It's a Dilbert reference (redundantly redundant reference.com reference, eh?)
Re:That's nothing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 15:53 · Score: 0

Thanks, m8!
Re:That's nothing by cluckshot · 2003-10-14 00:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

Maybe we need to advise President Bush of this service. He clearly thinks that the reason US Computer Programmers suffer unemployment is that they have not keep their skills up to date. That is why he supports H-1B and L-1 Visa programs to import "Qualified Workers." (Speech about 45 days ago) Maybe he will open up H-1B and L-1 Visa programs to replace these clearly obsolete and moronic obviously unqualified CEO's etc. But if he does, he may have to realize that their claims of "No Qualified Americans," only apply to Management and definitely not the the Software Engineers they lay off to raise their wages.

For the Ignorant H-1B and L-1 are US BICS(US Bureau of Immigration and Citizenship Services part of the Department of Homeland Security) [An onxymoron] Visa programs designed to allow companies to bring in massive quantities of Aliens and pay them substandard wages while avoiding US Payroll Taxes either all or part such that they can complain bitterly that there are no "Qualified Americans" while they bask in the wads of cash they save on taxes. It is as simple as understanding that Americans must markup their wages 150% or more to pay the taxes and the companies and their employees (Aliens) don't have to pay these taxes or the markup via these programs. Read Corporate Welfare!

Bush thinks that Americans should have to compete against Tax Exempt foreign Labor and that it is only their lack of "Qualifications" that makes them unemployed. Bluntly ask yourself, if you have the choice to buy a product from one person who charges $1000 and another who charges $2500 for the same product which would you buy? The answer is obvious. American Labor is not more expensive, it is our Government that is more expensive.

To illustrate: If GE which is Outsourcing to China $5 Billion this year and saving $1 Billion buys in the USA it cost $6 Billion. The States and the USA take $3 or more Billion of that money. The Labor only got $3 Billion. In China the Untaxed Labor cost $5 Billion. Thus the US Labor was $2 Billion Cheaper than in China. It is not US Labor that is the problem. It is the IGNORANT MANAGEMENT who is like these guys getting private tutors to even know how to use the machines of modern work while laying off Americans who are well qualified that is the problem. These are the same men who are killing Education Benefits for working people. They are the same ones who testify in front of Congress that there are "No Qualified Americans" to fill their jobs.

--
Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
Re:That's nothing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-14 01:00 · Score: 0

You've just described our taxation problem, not a Bush, or outsourcing issue. Whenever taxes rise to the exorbitant, you'll witness a mass exodus to locations and labor that are reasonable. When will liberals realize you can't tax your way out of issues? Have we not learned anything from California?

We live in a global society where labor and products can be made or purchased anywhere. Until you can prove your skills justify your salary, companies will shop overseas. It's a rude wakeup call. You're just not competing in your town anymore.
Re:That's nothing by NDPTAL85 · 2003-10-14 01:36 · Score: 1

Actually the reason why US Computer Programmers suffer unemployment is because they were horribly and obscenely over priced and over valued to begin with.

A correction of salaries and expectations has occured. Your just one of the last to find out.

--
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Re:That's nothing by Casualposter · 2003-10-14 04:51 · Score: 1

Ignorant management? Nope, sounds like they saved a billion dollars, got a nice fat bonus, and probably tossed you a quarter as they passed your over priced a$$ on the street.

Arguing that it is a bad policy is another issue altogether. It IS a bad policy especially if the USA wants to maintain its edge in world technology. Exporting know how has been very costly to countries; the US used to import more know how than export it. GWB&Co appear to have forgotten that they were elected to do what is best for the citizens of the USA, not the rest of the friggin' world.

But since when is a business person who talks the political system into granting them 1 billion dollars in cost reductions an ignorant moron? How about a well connected, persuasive, genious.

You just happen to have gotten screwed.

--
Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
Re:That's nothing by cluckshot · 2003-10-14 07:16 · Score: 1

While I might agree in some cases with your statement, it is clear that you simply do not know what is going on with the US Economy and US Taxes. I don't hold this against anyone as it is so easy to be ignorant of what the realities are.
A Simple set of calculations shows that the amount of tax taken from a EU citizen by the VAT is like 65%. However; when his products are exported whatever they are, the VAT is rebated so he competes Head to Head in the world market. Most Other countries have very little if any Income Tax. The Philippines for example have a 5% income tax.
While inside the USA it varies from Sate to State and with the level of Income a general statement is that about 65% of Income is taken. (Please don't try for the breakdown because I can give it to you but really would just like to discuss generalities here.) However; the US Tax System is Multi-Layered unlike the EU VAT and it is MULTIPLICATIVE. This means it multiplies on itself. I disclosed the first layer only. By going just 4 layers into it the rate is about 92%. The proper measure is about 6 layers and that calculates at something close to 97% of income.
This might seem strange to those outside the USA but it is the Reality. (I have worked for a State Tax Authority and I know how it works.) Most US Citizens are confused by this and I could hardly be surprised if some are confused by what I am saying. The long and the short of it is that Americans are awfully over taxed and their wages must be very high in order to have something left to live on. As such they appear Over Priced in an open world market which pays no such taxes. The reality is that the over priced thing is their government, not their wages. The customer only sees the whole price, not the breakdown.
As to the Correction of Salaries etc, let me assure you I have never been one of the "Over Paid" ones. But this is not a correction. A correction would reach a parity value. Under the circumstances of this tax disparity, there is never any parity. No matter how low the American goes, if he earns money, he faces competition which will be cheaper. If he fails to earn, the foreigners who depended on the US Consumer Market to sell their goods in, find a recession killing their wages and driving them lower. Thus, this never quits! It is a Weapon of Mass Economic Destruction.
The Concept of Correction here also fails by evidence because the proper way to measure wages is not in money/hour but in money/unit of production. In Software this is particularly hard to measure for managment. (The orginal point of my post being that management is dumb in all too many cases) They try to measure the old "Factory" way and the world is littered with the bankrupt companies who got a "Cheaper" rate in software. Also most of the rest of the world is not aware of the issues regards lower wages. Let me assure you that they are not in the long run better for a nation. If low wages and hard working conditions were a benefit to a nation, India, China and others would be the richest in the world. Low wages and poor working conditions are a curse to a nation. Seeking to "Benefit" from them is always a failed bargain. You see businesses find that they really like doing business with "Rich" Customers. You don't make much money from poor people.
Regards the Non-US workers, this is as dangerous to you as to us. What is more, the situation is calculated to drive you down as well. This is all the product of the USA Opening its market without taxation (Tariffs) to foreign competition. It has nothing to do with any foreign persons goodness or efficiency or whatever. It has everything to do with the US Congress leaving US Citizens holding the bag so to speak.
To clarify: Imagine an Olympic Race. Many Runners from many nations appear. Just before the gun goes off, the US Runner sees Uncle Sam coming onto the field with 3 other persons. He demands that the US Runner Strap on his Mother, an Iraqi and a US Government Worker. The Gun goes off and natural

--
Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
Re:That's nothing by cluckshot · 2003-10-14 07:24 · Score: 1

It might seem wise in the short run. If you only think for the next 90 days or next year it makes sense. GE is a company that is the Largest US Defense Contractor. They are slitting their throat politically on this one. In the end, they risk national Security, and the national economy against the good will of US Taxpayers who may just sent them to JAIL for their disloyalty in the future. There are violations of US Security Laws here!

GE doesn't stand to make much money if the US National Security gets compromised too much! This is the wisdom of the man who sells the boards and pipes out of his house and calls them a "Profit".

On the other hand, I can hardly argue that given the same arrogant ignorant congress critters and situation that they have not taken the path of least resistance.

--
Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
Re:That's nothing by aldousd666 · 2003-10-14 08:32 · Score: 1

You've cleared a lot of things up for me. I didn't realize that the EU refunded the taxes. I always just thought that since they were levied, they never saw that money again, which would have levelled the field. Thanks for that nice explanation, I think I may actually vote this year.

--
Speak for yourself.
Re:That's nothing by gritz · 2003-10-14 09:12 · Score: 0

me too! I'm amazed at what my msc(whatever)a friend that works for a bank as an admin doesn't know.
Re:That's nothing by Gongo · 2003-10-14 21:55 · Score: 1

I didn't realize that the EU refunded the taxes. I always just thought that since they were levied, they never saw that money again, which would have levelled the field.

Actually, (here in Belgium at least) they do not REFUND taxes (except when it has been established that you paid too much in the first place)!

Income taxes are part of the personal taxes, which arrive in everybodies mailbox once a year by means of a brown envelope.

On the form inside this envelope, you have to declare what you have earned (which when you are employed by an employer they have been given by this employer as well), how much of your monthly (or in the case of workers: bi-weekly) salary has been prepaid through withholding by the employer.(who then has to forward money this to the taxes department in your name).

The rest of the form (multipage) deals with what you can bring in as tax deductables (morgage loans, other loans, value of your house when you'd have to rent it from somebody else, ...) or additional earnings ( e.g.: you rent out your appartment to somebody else ) etc.

However, nothing of the VAT (Value Added Taxes, or in dutch BTW (belasting op de toegevoegde waarde)) can be recouperated by normal employees or workers.

VAT is not income tax (?)!

The year later, when the taxes have been processed, it is calculated whether you have pre-paid too much or too less in the previous year and are either refunded or required to pay the rest.

VAT on the other hand is when you buy a product (a TV, a loaf of bread, ...) from a company or someone with a VAT-number (freelancers, self-employers, companies!). The product has a value. On it, there is (depending on the necessity of the product: basic need, luxury, ...) a percentage of taxes added!

For instance, a TV of 300 EURO would have 21% added since it is a luxury product (or not anymore, since last year, donno ;-))

This kind of tax however is paid by the customer in full when he/she buys the product/service from the vendor.

The vendor however (and this is where self-employers can recouperate taxes) must keep a bookkeeping of his VAT incoming and outgoing.

In the case of the TV, he would have to add 63 EURO on the received side. This is an amount he/she would have to pay to the taxes department of his government. However, on every puchase he/she/it makes for business purposes, they can deduct the VAT they have already paid on the vendor of those products/services from the amount they have to pay. Every quarter they would have to declare their balance with regard to VAT and pay up the remaining balance (effectively resetting the balance to 0) or file for a refunding (which they may deduct from the incoming of the next Q).

This is ofcourse not for everyone.

Hope this shed some light into why we look at US pays with such awe.

On average, a 'normal IT wage' is about 27000 EURO a year here in Belgium (according to the salary poll on vacature.com). Of which about 42% is prepaid in taxes and social security (pensions, sickness guarantees, unemployment ... etc) and never reaches the bankaccounts of the employees. The employer on the other hand, when he pays the monthly salaries, needs to multiply this amount with nearly 1.8 and pay the extra 0.8 on social security extra's and 'patronale bijdragen' (taxes paid by the employer in your name for your work)
Re:That's nothing by jo42 · 2003-10-15 06:51 · Score: 1

Outsource upper (mis-)management...
Re:That's nothing by jdeking1 · 2003-10-15 17:27 · Score: 1

Nice supposition, but a bit broadly expressed.

A significant percentage of the U.S. jobs exported - whether computer programming, PCB design, manufacturing, etc. - have been from the lower paid sector.

Not all U.S. programmers are overpaid, at least by U.S. standards. A great many are, in fact, underpaid by U.S. standards, yet continue to lose their jobs to outsourcing.

The problem is greed. The greed of management. I know this from personal experience; a company I worked for in NY State opened a manufacturing center in mainland China. The workers in manufacturing here in the U.S. facility were understandably concerned for the security of their jobs. The management, most of whom the production workers saw in person on a daily basis, assured everyone that "only product to be sold overseas will be manufactured in China."

Within two years, nearly all of the 200 manufacturing positions in N.Y. State were transferred to China. R&D, design and sales remained in the U.S., but almost 200 people lost their jobs. These people earned an average of about US$9.50/hour. Overpaid? On a global scale, perhaps. On a U.S. scale? They were barely surviving. And, living in Upstate N.Y., many of them had a very hard time finding work of any kind after they were let go.

At the company I speak of, nobody is overpaid, except the highest executives. Even the programmers are getting only $30K to $45K, but only if they have been there for 15 years or so.

This company may not be what you read about regularly, but it isn't all that unusual either.

When I left that firm I wasn't very happy about it, but it was necessary; once I committed to moving around the country every few months, I found that I could make a living wage. It's too bad that it is so hard to earn a decent paycheck and have a sense of security simultaneously these days.

--
"A generation which ignores history has no past and no future." -- Robert Heinlein
Re:That's nothing by cluckshot · 2003-10-16 04:53 · Score: 1

The EU VAT Rebate is not to Individuals, it is on export companies who export EU Made goods to the outside of the EU. Naturally an individual would not see this feature. This only involves the EXPORT of goods. This is particularly important for Americans to understand

Essentially the problem is solved in the EU because if you "Play" in the EU, you "Pay" in the EU. This is fair and decent however; the taxes may not be proper in their level, this being another issue

The problem for US Citizens is that they don't have this feature in their tax system. If they Export their goods are fully laden with the Domestic US Taxes and as such the US primarily exports farm products and Arms. Almost every other thing has been destroyed in the market place of the world because the taxes are too high on US Products. Naturally the Foreigners don't see these taxes only the total price.

Correspondingly the Domestic US Market is being crushed by the fact that US Workers and businesses must load their costs with these taxes yet their market is tariff free open to the NAFTA and GATT signatories. As such many people around the world having no taxes naturally have much lower prices in the US Market than Domestic Products.

I am well aware that domestically the EU Taxes are way too high. This is not the point of the problem being discussed. The Issue of US Taxes being too high is also not the issue. The problem is when a tax ratio disparity develops like this one it hurts everyone.

The Current low interest rates have developed out of this problem. While it might be cheap to borrow the problem is that when investors earn so little they quit investing in jobs. This causes a deflationary spiral and is serious trouble. If we allow this inequality to continue we will see a further rise in warfare world wide. I saw the damage this was causing in 1996 in the Philippines and at that time I started telling people that we were going into a world war. If one is to understand this quite simply, the issue is that each nation should take care of its own territory and quit trying to take advantage of the others. Prosperity arises from peace, security and trust. While momentary gains may be seen from this type of mess, the end is alway a destruction of prosperity.

The EU comparisons of wages to US Wages are not wise. I have known and worked with many persons from EU and other areas. These persons were shocked to see that their paycheck was higher but their cost of living was correspondingly much higher.

Right now at my company I could take a job in Maryland near DC. I will not! The reason is that my wages would have to rise by nearly 3 times to have the same standard of living as I have in North Alabama. The same is true for money comparisons in many areas. They are not linear. Currency does not tell all! Indians I know who earned $5000 a year lived higher in India at that rate than they do in North Alabama at $55,000 a year.

I would take note of your 42% tax rate and almost laugh. Here is a short but not complete breakdown locally. Remember our structure unlike yours multiplies so that our rates are dramatically higher in reality than stated.

Social Security Tax 7.625% Employee and matched 7.625% Employer

Federal Income Tax (Rate varies with income) Generally about 28%

State of Alabama Income Tax 5.5%

Unemployment Compensation Employer paid tax 3.8% +/- varies

Sales Tax Combined City and State 8.5% of gross purchaces.

Birmingham Alabama and Jefferson County Occupational Tax 5.5% of Gross. ...

Alabama alone has 39 taxes for Schools and a total of 42 taxes. The Federal Government has Excise Taxes and even the Aternative Minimum Tax. If you want to get really bored the US and various State Codes and local Tax codes should take you about 10,000 years to read by which time they will have written enough to have you 20,000 years behind!

The point here is to quit the surface cursory looking and start looking carefully. It is not wise and the EU does not permit under the Draft Constitution its member states to have a situation like is happening in the USA with locals getting crushed by tax exempt persons or goods from outside.

--
Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.

As if by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 09:42 · Score: 3, Funny

Floundering in ignorance isn't something that happens at /. every day.

Re:As if by amplt1337 · 2003-10-13 10:12 · Score: 1

Who's floundering? I thought most of us here were thriving on ignorance...?

--
Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
Re:As if by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:15 · Score: 0

Well, when you put it that way...

What ... by NotoriousBob · 2003-10-13 09:42 · Score: 0

They can't follow the obvious "Start"?

--

RRS, aka The Notorious BOB
www.notoriousbob.co.nr

I never thought of this. by BoomerSooner · 2003-10-13 09:42 · Score: 1

Maybe I'll have my friends pitch my boss. God knows he needs it. He calls DLLs DSL, keeps asking when our co-located server is coming in, and cannot figure out that the latest greatest thing may not actually fit our goals and objectives.

The problem is.... by insertionPoint · 2003-10-13 09:43 · Score: 3, Interesting

I have seen the people that they hire when not in secret. Seriously, I had a guy in two weeks back to train me on my new I-series server. I helped him set it up then showed him how to connect to the internet, then I skipped the training in disgust.

Re:The problem is.... by e2d2 · 2003-10-14 04:37 · Score: 1

YOU'RE THE MAN NOW DAWG!
Re:The problem is.... by nearlygod · 2003-10-14 04:51 · Score: 1

I had the same experience. The new machine (to replace the old AS/400) came with training that the CEO wanted. At first I thought that the trainer was underestimating my level but after a few quetsions and blank stares I realized that I new a lot more about the system than he did.

--
The Tools Of Ignorance wanna be a tool?

Computer in the caption by Fulcrum+of+Evil · 2003-10-13 09:43 · Score: 1

Is that one of those old XT portables?

--
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"

Re:Computer in the caption by Mark+Hood · 2003-10-13 10:03 · Score: 1

I'm not sure of the PC model, but it sure looks like she's wiping off the ink he's just scrawled all over the screen.

First lesson: "When I say 'write an email' I don't mean it literally. Put down the pen. Put it down. DROP THE PEN!"

Second lesson: "If you're taking secret computer lessons so your staff don't find out you're a moron, don't appear in an article about it."

Third lesson: ????

Fourth lesson: Profit!

I'm so very sorry.

Mark

--
Liked this comment? Why not buy me something nice
Re:Computer in the caption by SoftwareJedi · 2003-10-13 10:22 · Score: 1

It looks like an HP Tablet PC. The T1000
Re:Computer in the caption by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 18:49 · Score: 0

Is that made of liquid metal?

Could be a lot of fun.. by grub · 2003-10-13 09:43 · Score: 0, Troll

Geek: Now pay attention..
PHB: OK..
Geek: Every morning you have to look at goatse.cx for 1 minute without blinking and..
PHB: But why is..
Geek: Don't interrupt! This part is essential!
PHB: Sorry.. ok. go on..

--
Trolling is a art,

Re:Could be a lot of fun.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 09:52 · Score: 0

At least I can still post from work... :P
Re:Could be a lot of fun.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 11:31 · Score: 0

This is actually a good idea, I've done it myself. After staring at goatse for 60 seconds every day, you become effectively immune to its effects...

This is prime PHB material, but... by stefanb · 2003-10-13 09:43 · Score: 5, Funny

"Really? I'm not the only one who doesn't know what the two mouse buttons are for?"

There is a reason Apple's sticking to mice with one button. And this is not ment in any condescending way.

Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Geopoliticus · 2003-10-13 09:46 · Score: 1

You know, condescending; which means to talk down to.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Oliver+Wendell+Jones · 2003-10-13 09:58 · Score: 1

You: You know, condescending; which means to talk down to.

Me: You mean like you're doing right now?

You: No, right now I'm patronizing...

--
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing -- Emo Phillips
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by sharkey · 2003-10-13 10:07 · Score: 1

And this is not ment in any condescending way.
Ahh, sarcasm. You left out the bit about spellcheck being on by default, though.

--

--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by NanoGator · 2003-10-13 10:12 · Score: 1

"There is a reason Apple's sticking to mice with one button."

They're promoting RSI?

--
"Derp de derp."
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by stefanb · 2003-10-13 10:23 · Score: 1

Oh, be grateful I wasn't trying to be witty... it is quite late here in central Europe, and I've got the flu.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by stonecypher · 2003-10-13 10:25 · Score: 4, Insightful

Well, maybe if the tutorials out there spent less time being condescending and more time actively presenting the real paradigms instead of flimsy confusing stuff, it wouldn't be a problem.

"What's the right mouse button for?"

wrong: "it's a context-sensitive menu enabling access to control commands"

wrong: "it's like a scrapbook in which your least used situational commands are gathered and presented for your use"

right: "it's where your less common controls go. there're even rarer ones in the big menus. it works on pretty much everything. just try it out a lot; as long as you don't pick any menu items, nothing's gonna change, and you won't hurt anything."

1) Give them a simple straightforward explanation of what it does without jargon or metaphor

2) Encourage them to familiarize themselves with the control, being careful to note when such experimentation is inappropriate, even when it's never inappropriate

Not so hard. Out of curiosity, I sat through a biug chunk of the tutorial shipped with my new commodity PC; there were some things I didn't understand, and I wrote software for a living.

Perhaps hire fewer multimedia visionaries and more teachers next time you guys write intros. :D

--
StoneCypher is Full of BS
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Black+Art · 2003-10-13 10:27 · Score: 1

But Apple has *not* stuck to the one-button mouse! The rest of the things that the second button is used for on multi-button mouse systems have just shifted to mouse/keyboard combinations. (So instead of being able to use one hand in most circumstances, you have to use two on a Mac.)

--
"Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by 3872 · 2003-10-13 10:29 · Score: 1

I don't get it. When I use a Mac, I exercise a larger fraction of the muscles in my arms, reaching for control-click and so forth, than when I use some hypercustomized Linux desktop where I can launch and control fifty apps without leaving home row. I've had such setups which I spent weeks customizing, and yet I prefer the stock Mac OS setup on my one button PowerBook.
If your baseline amount of movement is nontrivial, then a small repetitive stress on top of that is irrelevant. If your baseline amount of movement is zero, then any repetitive stress is bound to become bothersome.

--

The real 3872 has the sig "Bruce Perens." Anyone else is an impostor.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:31 · Score: 0

And this is not ment in any condescending way.

Eet woodunt wanna be coz ur oviouslee a dumdum.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:36 · Score: 0

"There is a reason Apple's sticking to mice with one button."
They're promoting RSI?

What does a psychosomatic disorder have to do with Apple's one button?
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:38 · Score: 0

What does a psychosomatic disorder have to do with Apple's one button?

Quack, quack, quack, quack...
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by El · 2003-10-13 10:43 · Score: 1

Uh, aren't there three mouse buttons on any real computer? (Bear in mind the mouse wheel is also a button!)

--
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Enonu · 2003-10-13 10:51 · Score: 1

Driving a car requires the use of two petals with your feet! If people can't learn how to operate a mouse with two buttons, then I serious fear these people on the road!
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by ScottKin · 2003-10-13 10:54 · Score: 1

Apple's mouse (and Apple systems on the whole, for that matter) are simply for people who can't handle more that one option or more than one way of doing things.
Herr Jobs: "Ve Vill haft ONE MOUZE BUTTONZ, ANDT ONLY ONE MOUZE BUTTONZ"
Apple Employee: "Steve-o - what's with the narrow moustache?"
Why should I have to hold a key down (that suspiciously looks like a cubist-drawn four-leaf "lucky" clover) on my keyboard when clicking on an object in order to have more options available for the object I'm clicking?
Apple obviously tried to have an ambidextrous mouse (one button) to appeal to the widest margin of users - without giving them OPTIONS or CHOICES.
And now you wonder why there are no MAC cases at ColorCase.
ScottKin

--
I don't give a rat's behind about "karma" here or anywhere else. Don't like what I have to say here? Deal with it!
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by red+floyd · 2003-10-13 10:57 · Score: 1

Wasn't that Al Gore on SNL?

--
The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 11:00 · Score: 0

"And this is not ment in any condescending way."

this is MEANT in a condescending way:

LEARN TO SPELL!
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by exhilaration · 2003-10-13 11:00 · Score: 1

two petals with your feet
You're ruining my flowers, you insensitive clod!
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by jjhlk · 2003-10-13 11:03 · Score: 1

When is a mouse button ever used in a keyboard combination? All I know is the windows and linux ways and they work fine (the difference being linux has a different style of copy/paste and doesn't support drag and drop in many things).
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by ncc74656 · 2003-10-13 11:03 · Score: 1

"Really? I'm not the only one who doesn't know what the two mouse buttons are for?"

He probably doesn't know the purpose of the three seashells, either...

--
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by rifter · 2003-10-13 11:06 · Score: 1

Driving a car requires the use of two petals with your feet! If people can't learn how to operate a mouse with two buttons, then I serious fear these people on the road!

Sadly, most people have switched to cars for which they only need one pedal at a time. This is because handling two pedals simultaneously was too much for them. I myself drive a standard shift automobile, and use Linux at home and work.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 11:11 · Score: 0

oh, the irony.

you're talking about the command key. you don't hold the command key down in conjunction with a mouse click to get a contextual menu. you hold down the control key. that's the key that says "control" on it. It's in the same area as the Ctrl key is on a non-mac keyboard.

there are choices and options. get a different mouse. there are lots to choose from.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by TheAntiCrust · 2003-10-13 11:12 · Score: 1

I have three pedals in my car and eight buttons on my mouse. I sure am an odd duck.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Jellybob · 2003-10-13 11:26 · Score: 1

If you're going to be picky then, there are 5 mouse buttons on most computers, seeing as how the mouse wheel is made up of the "click" button, and two other ones for up and down.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Dirtside · 2003-10-13 11:30 · Score: 1

I use an automatic transmission, *and* I use Linux at home and at work. They didn't invent the automatic transmission because manual was "too much work," they invented it because it's annoying when you mis-time pressing the clutch and grind the gears, or cause your car to stall when you're at an intersection, etc. Yeah, automatics are more expensive, but that's the price you pay for convenience.

--
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by stefanb · 2003-10-13 11:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

Ugh, seems I've hit a button here :-)
Don't get me wrong, the first thing I do when getting a new Mac is to get a mouse with a scroll wheel for it, and that usually involves a right-hand button as well.
The important bit for be is that I can see the difference in almost all Mac apps, I get the most "useful" commands, as opposed to Windows apps where more often than not I get commands on the context menu that are not available anywhere else.
For a long time, on Macs, you had all kinds of "accelerators", but they were only that: you did not need to memorize obtuse key combinations (different for each app, of course), but you could run most of them with just the mouse (except for text entry). This is completely opposite to my experience with Windows software, where many times, you can activate a function or feature only through a context menu or some key stroke combination.
Otherwise, I completly agree: making often used functions more readily accessible for the power user is a good thing, and you can use the right.hand-button on your mouse just like that in Mac OS X.
Oh, and one last thing: "experimentation unless it's 'inappropriate'." Although there's quite a few occasions where there's no undo, Apple's Human Interface Guidelines require (or at least strongly suggest) undo features at all possible levels, so as long it's undoable, it should be OK.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by stonecypher · 2003-10-13 11:41 · Score: 2, Funny

Ugh, seems I've hit a button here :-)

You certainly have. I find nothing more frustrating than MS' seeming inability to get their shit together and write a tutorial that doesn't assume that the user is experienced or stupid. It seems MS doesn't see them as seperable concerns.

"This is a mouse. If you can't hook your printer up, you've obviously missed the last 20 years of pop culture. Even Scotty from Star Trek figured this out when it was 400 years obsolete, so you must be a putz. First, put your hand down. No, the one on your arm. Good: you may have a grape."

etc.

--
StoneCypher is Full of BS
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by rifter · 2003-10-13 12:52 · Score: 1

I use an automatic transmission, *and* I use Linux at home and at work. They didn't invent the automatic transmission because manual was "too much work," they invented it because it's annoying when you mis-time pressing the clutch and grind the gears, or cause your car to stall when you're at an intersection, etc. Yeah, automatics are more expensive, but that's the price you pay for convenience.

I suppose. But I use manual not simply because it is "harder" but also because it is easier to control. You get more precise control over what the car is doing (much like Linux gives me more control over my computer).

I recently learned that automatic transmissions increase one's towing capacity. At first I thought it was because they did not trust the human to know when to downshift, but it does appear that there are some features in some transmissions that make it less likely to slip. Or so a truck salesman says. If I switched to automatic it would be because I needed that kind of towing capacity.

Then again, it would have to be of a necessity. Automatic transmissions are actually harder for me to drive than standard, partially because I am used to standard, but partially because you have less control than with a standard transmission.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Moirke · 2003-10-13 13:14 · Score: 1

Intresting story about Apple sticking with the single mouse button (although somewhat off topic)... When Apple initially decided to have a single mouse button they did some research to see what the "average" computer user preferred. Their own research showed that the majority of users preferred two or three buttons over the one button mouse. However, the marketing department wanted to sell the computer as "the only computer that allowed you to do everything with just one button". In anycase, I don't think it had anything to do with ease of use. story about Apple sticking with the single mouse button (although somwehat off topic). When Apple initially decided to have a single mouse button they did some research to see what the "average" computer user prefered. Their own research showed that the majority of users prefered two or three buttons over the one button mouse. However, the marketing department wanted to sell the computer as "the only computer that allowed you to do everything with just one button". In any case, I don't think it had anything to do with ease of use.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Dirtside · 2003-10-13 13:19 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I think I was just annoyed because your original post implied that people who drive automatics do it because a manual transmission is "too much for them." Made me feel a little defensive, since I have entirely different, and perfectly valid reasons for not driving a manual ;)

--
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · 2003-10-13 13:33 · Score: 1

For a long time, on Macs, you had all kinds of "accelerators", but they were only that: you did not need to memorize obtuse key combinations (different for each app, of course), but you could run most of them with just the mouse (except for text entry).
On the other hand, windows tends to be more friendly to non-memorization-based keyboard usage--particularly by letting you navigate the menus with arrow keys (push alt first). It turns out to be possible to do in later versions of Mac OS X, but you need to set an option in System Configuration to do it, and I never remember which button I have it set to. While windows makes you right click needlessly (though honestly I can't think of too many windows programs that force me to use key stroke combinations), the mac makes me reach for the mouse somewhat needlessly.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Gleef · 2003-10-13 13:35 · Score: 1

ritter wrote:

I recently learned that automatic transmissions increase one's towing capacity. At first I thought it was because they did not trust the human to know when to downshift, but it does appear that there are some features in some transmissions that make it less likely to slip. Or so a truck salesman says. If I switched to automatic it would be because I needed that kind of towing capacity.

I know very little about cars (and trucks), but I would still question that salesman where he got that idea. For evidence otherwise, Mack's transmissions for their big rigs all seem to be standard, not automatic. Is towing many many tons enough?

--

----
Open mind, insert foot.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Banjonardo · 2003-10-13 13:43 · Score: 1

MS' seeming inability to get their shit together and write a tutorial that doesn't assume that the user is experienced or stupid
Ah, but it shows their brilliance! They would never provide an easy little tutorial while they can charge you 30 bucks to solve stuff over the phone or subject you to their crap on their website. But the clients that won't take this sort of shit, like executives? In a situation where they have a choice of products? Microsoft isn't stupid enough to NOT cater to those people either. Check it: Excel has a "help for lotus users" button.

--
-----
Score 3? For what? Being wrong, at length? - smirkleton
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 13:47 · Score: 0

Nice Demolition Man reference.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Wolfrider · 2003-10-13 14:16 · Score: 1

John Spartan, you have been fined one credit for not knowing how to use your computer...

--
.
== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by F34nor · 2003-10-13 14:16 · Score: 1

wrong: "it's where your less common controls go. there're even rarer ones in the big menus. it works on pretty much everything. just try it out a lot; as long as you don't pick any menu items, nothing's gonna change, and you won't hurt anything."

right: "Its asks the computer; 'what can I do to this?'"

You were on the right track but way to f'n wordy.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Grizzlysmit · 2003-10-13 14:43 · Score: 1

What does a psychosomatic disorder have to do with Apple's one button?
if you think RSI is psychosomatic you need psychiatric help.

--
in my life God comes first.... but Linux is pretty high after that :-D
Francis Smit
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by ColaMan · 2003-10-13 15:09 · Score: 1

Depends what your definition of "many many tons" is.
Mining trucks (eg. Caterpillar) have automatic transmissions that are the same in principle as your car's , except they weigh about a ton and have the same rough dimensions (maybe a little bigger) as a 44 gallon drum. Total loaded weight they move is normally about 300 tons at about 40MPH, from a 2000HP engine.

Automatic transmissions are useful for their torque convertor which allows you to match engine rpm to transmission RPM under heavy load without damage.

--

You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by fermion · 2003-10-13 15:32 · Score: 1

The problem with blaming tutorials is that it ignores design problems and appropriateness of the interface to the user.
For example there were are are cases where a two physical ports look the same but preform different functions. Although this regrettable situation can be remedied through tutorials, color coding, and patient tech support personnel spending countless hours assisting the helpless lusers, better original design decisions could have avoided the problem altogether.
Such a situation also shows up in software. For example, in older versions of MS Word the file/new menu selection was mapped to a complex tabbed table of reformatted documents, with names like 'normal', while the key-stroke equivalent was mapped to the creation of a new document. In order for the new user, which was the one more likely to use the menu, to make use of the tabbed list, such a user would first have understand what all the words on the tabbed list meant. OTOH the more experienced user, might make better use of the selection, but would be more likely to use the key stroke. In later versions the mapped the menu item to a wizard, which makes a little more sense. The end result is the new user cannot accomplish simple tasks without first understanding much more than is minimally required for the simple task.
The same is true for Mozilla, which is arguable a web browser. The file/new menu command result in submenu. This submenu does not list a 'browser' or 'web page' but 'navigator'. Again, tutorials can help, but the user must know that unfamiliar notion of what a 'navigator' is. Obviously Mozilla falls to the bloat trap and therefore cannot have a simple file/new window such as Camino of IE, but a non-branded standard solution might save users some time.
The issue gets worse when you consider previous knowledge of new users. In your example, you want to describe the right mouse button (which already gets you in trouble with left handed users) as displaying less common commands. What are the less common commands? Why are they on the right mouse button? I have trouble holding down the button and moving the mouse? The left button immediately results in an action, so i am scared to use the right mouse button because it might result in a confusing action? A user with significant amounts of previous knowledge knows exactly what you are taking about and knows how to fix mistake. A new user just does not need that kind of problems on top of everything else. And expecting them to go through a long tutorial, no matter how wonderful it is, just to use a mouse is just ridiculous.
The whole point of a WIMP is to allow users to get started on work with minimal prior knowledge and minimal training. It also acknowledges that advance concepts are built over time as the learner build structures in which those advance concepts can be formed. Without those previous structures, tutorials do little good.

--
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by 00420 · 2003-10-13 16:34 · Score: 1

On the other hand, windows tends to be more friendly to keyboard usage--particularly by letting you navigate the menus with arrow keys (push alt first).

How did you remember to push alt first?

--
Have you tried Linux yet?
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-14 01:10 · Score: 0

They would never provide an easy little tutorial while they can charge you 30 bucks to solve stuff over the phone or subject you to their crap on their website.

Isn't this the exact same business models most Linux companies operate under?
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by NDPTAL85 · 2003-10-14 01:43 · Score: 1

What exactly is so hard about driving an automatic? You turn the ignition, point the car in the direction you want it to go and put your foot on the gas pedal. Whats so hard about that?

--
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by Theaetetus · 2003-10-14 02:12 · Score: 1

When Apple initially decided to have a single mouse button they did some research to see what the "average" computer user preferred. Their own research showed that the majority of users preferred two or three buttons over the one button mouse. However, the marketing department wanted to sell the computer as "the only computer that allowed you to do everything with just one button". In anycase, I don't think it had anything to do with ease of use. story about Apple sticking with the single mouse button (although somwehat off topic).
I want to see a source for this... Consider that the first 'single-button' Apple mouse was also the first Apple mouse - back in 1984 - and the majority of users didn't have computers, and the tiny minority that did were using Unix or DOS, and had no mice.
-T
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by rifter · 2003-10-14 04:10 · Score: 1

What exactly is so hard about driving an automatic? You turn the ignition, point the car in the direction you want it to go and put your foot on the gas pedal. Whats so hard about that?

Stopping, for one thing, is harder in an automatic. You have to rely soley on the brakes, without any way of disengaging the gears (or better, safely engaging a lower gear) which comes in awful handy in slick conditions.

Then there is the simple fact that you are no longer in control of your gears, which means it is also harder to pass and such. Essentially by giving up control of the gearbox you only have the gas to speed up and slow down. That is harder IMHO.

Then there is of course personal preference. It always takes me a bit to get used to an automatic if I hop in one because I am used to shifting.

For the Record, Windows is harder to use for me than Linux and UNIX are for similar reasons. You lose control of the OS and things get set (and reset) automatically. It is harder than an automatic transmission because at least you know what is happening with a car (you can hear the RPMs, unless you have one of those "quiet" cars..) whereas Windows will change things in menus several levels deep from random control panels. With Linux and UNIX the philosophy is that the administrator is in control. With Windows, Microsoft is in control.
Re:This is prime PHB material, but... by NanoGator · 2003-10-14 07:16 · Score: 1

"What does a psychosomatic disorder have to do with Apple's one button? "

Moron.

--
"Derp de derp."

More people! by spyder913 · 2003-10-13 09:43 · Score: 1

If only some of the doctors I work with would do this... it's amazing how people can be intelligent people and so dumbfounded by a computer.

Re:More people! by Moofie · 2003-10-13 10:07 · Score: 1

I betcha the doctors are so amazed that intelligent computer people can be so dumbfounded by the practice of medicine.

If you're a smart person, you're very much in touch with the fact that you're ignorant about 99% of the stuff in the universe. If you think you're not ignorant, you're not very smart.

--
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Re:More people! by spyder913 · 2003-10-13 10:16 · Score: 1

Duh. I'm not trying to make them out as stupid at all. Unfortunately the computer is a tool they must use for 50-75% of their jobs. A basic working knowledge is all that is required. Most of them have it down (in fact the people who are NOT docs are much worse in most cases).
Re:More people! by Moofie · 2003-10-13 10:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

Look, I worked IT for a hundred doctors' offices in a major metropolitan area. Doctors are no more, and no less, computer literate than the general populace. Most of the docs I spoke with were highly intelligent, easy to teach, and interested in learning how to do new stuff.

So I really don't know what you're after, here. Smart people know how to learn stuff. Lots of docs are smart people.

Incidentally, most of those doctors' staff people were similarly teach-able. I think that the assumption that people are unable to learn how to drive a computer is due to the fact that lots of people are bad at teaching people how to use computers.

--
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Re:More people! by ceejayoz · 2003-10-13 10:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

Having seen it from both sides (Dad's a doc who dabbled in programming in college, I do web apps for docs), I'd say a lot of the blame rests squarely on IT's shoulders.

You can tell when the UI was done by a programmer with no usability training... things are just counterintuitive, non-obvious, etc.

Yes, some docs are computer imbeciles... but their job is to fix people, not to sit taking computer training. Make it Incredibly Freaking Obvious (TM) and it's easier for everyone. :-p

Bear with me please. by Phosphor3k · 2003-10-13 09:44 · Score: 2, Informative

Could someone please explain to this lowely Helpdesk Technician what the hell a PHB is?

Re:Bear with me please. by insertionPoint · 2003-10-13 09:46 · Score: 1

Could someone please explain to this lowely Helpdesk Technician what the hell a PHB is?

Easiest explanation, the guy who says that he will fire you if you don't show him the DAMN ANY key.
Seriously, the Pointy Haired Boss from Dilbert. Dilbert know it well as it is /.speak
Re:Bear with me please. by Cyno01 · 2003-10-13 09:46 · Score: 2, Informative

Pointy haired boss, Dilbert reference.

--
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
Re:Bear with me please. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 09:46 · Score: 0

http://www.faqs.org/docs/jargon/P/PHB.html
Re:Bear with me please. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 09:47 · Score: 0

Pointed Hair Boss from Dilbert
Re:Bear with me please. by LehiNephi · 2003-10-13 09:47 · Score: 1

PHB = Pointy-haired boss. A reference to Dilbert.

--
Help find a cure for cancer. Join the [H]orde
Re:Bear with me please. by stefanlasiewski · 2003-10-13 09:48 · Score: 1

I think you need some "secret" Dilbert training.

Just don't let the boss catch you!

--
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Re:Bear with me please. by pixas · 2003-10-13 09:48 · Score: 1

It's a Pointy Haired Boss ;^)
Re:Bear with me please. by Bishop923 · 2003-10-13 09:48 · Score: 1

Pointy Haired Boss

It's a Reference to the Boss in the Dilbert Comic Strip
Re:Bear with me please. by phch · 2003-10-13 09:48 · Score: 1

"Pointy-Haired Boss", from the Dilbert character.
Re:Bear with me please. by CFrankBernard · 2003-10-13 09:49 · Score: 1

Google hit # 2 for PHB: Pointy-Haired Boss
Re:Bear with me please. by alien666 · 2003-10-13 10:22 · Score: 1

I know it's "pointy haired boss," but sometimes it's more like "poor helpless bastard."
Re:Bear with me please. by reboot246 · 2003-10-13 10:42 · Score: 1

Everybody else will tell you it stands for Pointy Haired Boss. I prefer to think of it as standing for Pig Headed Boss.
Re:Bear with me please. by rifter · 2003-10-13 11:33 · Score: 1

Google hit # 2 for PHB: Pointy-Haired Boss

Now it's number 1! But there are some odd ones in there.. get a load of number two!
Re:Bear with me please. by dcmeserve · 2003-10-13 13:18 · Score: 1

I prefer to think of it as standing for Pig Headed Boss.
Me, I keep thinking "Pinhead Boss".

--
"Orthodoxy is unconsciousness" - Orwell
Re:Bear with me please. by LittleGuy · 2003-10-14 03:36 · Score: 1

Could someone please explain to this lowely Helpdesk Technician what the hell a PHB is?

A Paradigm of Haphazard Bull---t.

--
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.

Igorance is better. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 09:44 · Score: 5, Insightful

I guess getting tutored in secret is better than just floundering in ignorance.

No. Floundering in ignorance is much less destructive than "a little knowledge". A completely ignorant PHB says "make me a system that counts sheep". A PHB with a little knowledge says "make me a system that counts sheep, and it should use an ACID-compliant database and J2EE, and I think XP will be the way to go..."

Re:Igorance is better. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 09:48 · Score: 0

STFU
Re:Igorance is better. by Shiblon · 2003-10-13 10:03 · Score: 1

No. Floundering in ignorance is much less destructive than "a little knowledge".
Agreed. Sounds like what they're doing over at SCO....

SCO: "What is this pattern matching of which you speak?"

Secret Tutor (Bill G): "Profit!"
Re:Igorance is better. by Progman2000 · 2003-10-13 14:22 · Score: 1

I suppose the problem that I (and so many others, it seems) have with PHBs is not so much knowledge, but intelligence. If he *knows* that we know far more than he does about topic_X, he should be smart enough to listen to us. If he keeps us on the payroll, the he should have enough confidence in us to take us at our word when his understanding is limited.

What really ticks me (us?) off is being ignored when we I know a better way, or being over-ruled because he doesn't understand some basic concept. (like IP addressing, hardware interaction, RAID levels, or software security).

My oft-used analogy is that I would *never* go tell Ford engineers how to design a car (i.e. number of wheels, layout of engine, etc) because they know *far* more about it than I do. If I was somehow in charge of a group of such engineers, I would NOT dictate things to them. I'd ask for pros & cons on major choices, and decide from there.

Worst of all is having an insultant (consultant or other "outsider") brought in to do a task that I or anyone else in the department (other than the PHB) could easily take care of. If they have more experience and a better idea, that's one thing. If they simply have more letters after their name and a higher hourly rate, that's another.

No, I'm not just being bitter and spouting off. My bosses have made some really boneheaded decisions that I (and others) warned them about. We've seen "professional" "consultants" brought in and totally screw things up because they knew *less* than we did. Most distressing, we are currently watching The Powers That Be relying on a consulting firm for the blessing of *every* decision and task, no matter how trivial, on a certain system. Why? "They're professionals." What, and we aren't?!

"He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool. Shun him. He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is simple. Teach him. He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep. Waken him. He who knows, and knows that he knows is wise. Follow him."
Re:Igorance is better. by Walrus99 · 2003-10-14 00:44 · Score: 0

Ahh, someone mentioned SCO, got my fix for the day, now back to work.
Re:Igorance is better. by pmz · 2003-10-14 02:03 · Score: 1

A PHB with a little knowledge says "make me a system that counts sheep, and it should use an ACID-compliant database and J2EE, and I think XP will be the way to go..."

Please, oh PLEASE, NOOO!!!!!! A boss the defines the technology to use in or before the actual system's requirements is a boss from hell. I've actually heard bosses say stuff like "we need to throw XML in here, because that's what people are doing now."

The boss should use his miserable little bit of knowledge to try to appreciate the developer's opinions about how to implement the requirements. Actually, doing as much analysis and design in a platform-agnostic way up front pays dividends later as that's a huge block of work that is not only done but is portable.

Further, what does the boss know anyway? What if CGI were a much more appropriate solution than J2EE? And any boss that specifies Extreme Programming is probably asking for people to quit eventually, anyway.

--
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Re:Igorance is better. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-14 08:29 · Score: 0

We're using J2EE on a new project where I work.
It's a server-side process. You send it stuff via sockets, it does stuff, and sends stuff back. It has no GUI. Never will. But J2EE is "cool", so that's what we have to use.
"Coming up next on Hometime: building cabinets using scissors."

Not really surprised... by fedaykin42 · 2003-10-13 09:44 · Score: 1

...I've seen people with MBAs struggle with how to turn on a computer, let alone use it. Anyone who has worked at a larger corporation has probably seen this level of ignorance. This just makes me kick myself for not thinking of it first...

Re:Not really surprised... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:10 · Score: 0

Because as we all know a MBA is a degree in advanced computer technology. Just remmeber that person with the MBA knows a hell of alot more about business than you do.
Re:Not really surprised... by pyros · 2003-10-13 10:19 · Score: 1

MBA: I don't do shipping.
lady: It's real easy with fedex.com, anyone can use it.
MBA: you don't understand, I have an MBA.
lady: oh, you have an MBA. I better show you how to use it.
Re:Not really surprised... by orthogonal · 2003-10-13 10:49 · Score: 1

Just remmeber that person with the MBA knows a hell of alot more about business than you do.

Yeah, they really make a difference.

One explained how we could patent "saying good morning" so long as we appended "by means of a calculating device or computer netwwork" to it.

Once that was done, the other one explaned we could lay off all the creative and tech workers, hire a bunch of lawyers, and drive up our stock prices by suing the entire world for infrnging our patent.

It's pure genius!

--
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
Re:Not really surprised... by 1lus10n · 2003-10-13 13:20 · Score: 1

So basically what your saying is that you work for SCO ?

Im sorry. If you want i'll help you look for a job.

--
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein
Re:Not really surprised... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 18:50 · Score: 0

So basically what your (sic) saying is that you work for SCO ?

Im (sic) sorry. If you want i'll help you look for a job.

I'm a dick. It's concomitant with my Ivy League education: No, I'm not with SCO, but I have this fetish to correct grammar.

The real question... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 09:44 · Score: 0

Do they have brochures I can "accidently" leave laying around?

Obligatory Dilbert quote.. by TheFairElf · 2003-10-13 09:44 · Score: 3, Funny

Dilbert: "You have to hold the notebook upside down and shake it to reboot, remember?"
PHB: "Oh right, thanks"

Re:Obligatory Dilbert quote.. by Tumbleweed · 2003-10-13 09:52 · Score: 1

"Oh, wow, this is one of those new pagers that clip onto your ear!"

hehehe
Re:Obligatory Dilbert quote.. by sharkey · 2003-10-13 10:09 · Score: 1

That's not a computer, it's the cardboard model that came with your desk.

--

--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Re:Obligatory Dilbert quote.. by NanoGator · 2003-10-13 10:15 · Score: 4, Funny

"Dilbert: "You have to hold the notebook upside down and shake it to reboot, remember?"
PHB: "Oh right, thanks"

And the obligatory FedEx follup:

Woman: Hi, Tom, I know its your first day, but we could really use your help.

Tom: (with slightly smug smile, pulling on suit jacket) You got it.

Woman: (walking) We're just in a bit of a jam.

Tom: (squirts breath spray)

Woman: (continues, gesturing to roomful of FedEx boxes) All this has to get out today...

Tom: (look of astonishment, smug smile returning) Yeah...uh...I dont do shipping...

Woman: Oh, no no no, its very easy. We use FedEx.com (sitting him down at a computer open to the FedEx.com website). Anybody can do it.

Tom: (smug smile wider, he cant believe shes asking him to do this) Uh... no... you dont understand: I have an MBA.

Woman: Oh, you have an MBA...

Tom: Yeah.

Woman: In that case Ill have to show you how to do it.

--
"Derp de derp."
Re:Obligatory Dilbert quote.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:16 · Score: 0

PHB: "I think we should build an SQL database."
Dilbert: "What color do you want that database?"
PHB: "I think mauve has the most RAM"
Re:Obligatory Dilbert quote.. by Elias+Serge · 2003-10-13 11:09 · Score: 1

And Then: PHB: "So I need a new motherboard?" Dilbert: "No, you need a new desk."
Re:Obligatory Dilbert quote.. by dheltzel · 2003-10-13 11:56 · Score: 1

[From memory, some quotes not verbatim]

PHB: I've got an idea!
Dilbert (thinks): Uh-oh
Wally (thinks): We're doomed.
PHB: Why can't we run our databases over our email system?
Dilbert (thinks): Fact: it is futile to explain how stupid that is.
Wally (thinks): Fact: he'll never know whether we use his idea or not.
Dilbert: Great idea!
Wally: We'll get right on it!
PHB (thinks): My work is done. (walks away)

Wally: Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil.
Dilbert: Yeah, and you don't want to get any one you!
Re:Obligatory Dilbert quote.. by smyle · 2003-10-14 04:14 · Score: 1

You could have supplied the link.

--
Sleep is just a poor substitute for caffeine, anyway. -Bob Lehmann

I am SO pleased to know that ... by burgburgburg · 2003-10-13 09:44 · Score: 3, Funny

the top executives who control the direction of our corporate overlords are acquiring the same level of knowledge of a high school dropout intern whose main responsibility is sorting the mail (but can't really be trusted to deliver it).

I feel safer now.

Re:I am SO pleased to know that ... by metlin · 2003-10-13 10:10 · Score: 1

On a more serious note, it _is_ scary to think that these are the people who are handling some of the most important stuff in the corporate world.

And this newly-gained half knowledge only makes it worse. Now from being executives who did not know a thing, they would be executives who pretend to know everything.

Remember, partial knowledge is a terrible thing, indeed.
Re:I am SO pleased to know that ... by IM6100 · 2003-10-13 10:28 · Score: 3, Funny

Actually, what would be scary is if introverted computer nerds were handing the most important stuff in the corporate world.

Remember, we already tried the dot.bomb adventure.

Now, go change the toner cartridge on the laserjet on second floor like a good, geek, kay?

--
A Good Intro to NetBS
Re:I am SO pleased to know that ... by Surlyboi · 2003-10-13 11:27 · Score: 1

The dot.bomb adventure that every PHB and his brother
tried to get in on when they saw the geeks were making
money hand-over-fist... THAT dot.bomb adventure?
Corporate know-nothings weren't immune to that particular
foible, smartass.

--
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...
Re:I am SO pleased to know that ... by 1lus10n · 2003-10-13 13:26 · Score: 1

actually the .bomb era was caused by PHB with MBA's thinking anything on the "interweb" was going to make them bajillionaires, so they called up there buddies with MBA's+$$ (also known has venture capatalists) and got them to over-invest in EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN THING that came out having to do with the "interweb".

geeks might have been the ones getting paid 80k/year to write html, but PHB's were the ones making millions for coming up with a name for a website, and overspending on half assed ideas.

--
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein
Re:I am SO pleased to know that ... by Lord_Dweomer · 2003-10-13 14:30 · Score: 1

Wow, way to propagate the notion that geeks are nothing but intellectual snobs who think they are better than someone else just because they are skilled with computers.
I'm sure there's HUNDREDS of things a top executive has to do in his daily routines that you couldn't even begin to wrap your mind around. People skills for starters. Based on your comment, I'd say you speak in a very condescending manner to many people, which really is not a good trait when facilitating deals, managing people, or running a company for that matter.
Executives tend to have a lot more on their plate than JUST computers. Which means they don't have a lot of time to learn about them. That is why they hire people who DO know about them.
So how bout you get off your high horse and start figuring out why they are the executives and you are not. I'll give you a hint. Its not because they put down people who lack social skills.

--
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Re:I am SO pleased to know that ... by IM6100 · 2003-10-13 19:15 · Score: 1

An alternative version of history is that the dot.bomb era was caused by PHBs with MBA's listening to the 'geeks' too seriously. I'm not laying the blame on that, that was just what sparked the whirlwind. By the end it wasn't about 'geeks' or 'nerds' at all. But come on, if you were around, you might recall those early days, Mondo 2000, etc. before the bad clone called Wired came along... Pure geek idealism reined for quite awhile, the explosion came when opportunists got a sip too much of that kool-aide.

--
A Good Intro to NetBS
Re:I am SO pleased to know that ... by 1lus10n · 2003-10-13 21:18 · Score: 1

i agree completely.

but isnt it the PHB's job to weed out shitty ideas ? and steer the company correctly ? and invest money wisely ?

or was that only their job prior to the whole SCO fiasco ......

--
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein
Re:I am SO pleased to know that ... by smagruder · 2003-10-14 03:05 · Score: 1

...PHBs with MBA's listening to the 'geeks' too seriously.

If you mean PHBs with MBA's listening to the overhyping 'magazine geeks' too seriously, then I would agree. Ordinary garden-variety geeks obviously don't have any Star Wars hex going over PHBs.

--
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist

How much does it pay? ;) by MarkJensen · 2003-10-13 09:44 · Score: 1

I think that there are tens of thousands of potential tutors that read /.!

"The 'ON' button is here... This mouse has three buttons for Linux...

I wonder what it pays? :)

wow, $50? by herrvinny · 2003-10-13 09:44 · Score: 1

Wow, $50 an hour? Where do I sign up? I can train moronic - er, technologically-challenged bosses....

Re:wow, $50? by geekoid · 2003-10-13 10:06 · Score: 1

first susscribe to executive magazines.
second, put add in said magazines.
third, wait for calls. charge 50 and hour+ expenses.
forth, by them a meal in an expensive resturant afterwords. If not that then, an expensive round of golf.
step four is to get them to recommend you.

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Re:wow, $50? by confusednoise · 2003-10-13 10:11 · Score: 1

Naturally, you're aiming for a funny mod, but your post reveals exactly why executives do this in secret. Sure, you, me & and many other slashdotters *know* how to work a computer, but teaching someone clueless how to do WITHOUT being a patronizing pain in the ass is the skill required for this job. The lack of that kind of understanding in many IT depts. is what makes the instructor who has it worth $50/hr.
Just food for thought....
Re:wow, $50? by jrumney · 2003-10-13 10:34 · Score: 1

Except it wasn't $50 an hour the executives were paying, that was her income. The cost to the executive was $750 a month for two hours training, two hours phone and unlimited email support. Someone's getting rich, and it ain't this woman.
Now when CEOs are willing to spend that sort of money on REALLY basic computer training, but tighten the purse strings when the development group asks for a couple of grand a head for a one off genuine specialized three day course, you know where that company is headed.
Re:wow, $50? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:39 · Score: 0

All of those patronizing pain in the ass geeks seem to gravitate to slashdot as well so they can post nothing but negative comments based on presumptions. It makes me sick that some of them are still employed when they obviously don't like their job and tens of thousands of other people with the same skillset or better are unemployed & can only dream of getting one of these jobs.

This is the cue... by LehiNephi · 2003-10-13 09:45 · Score: 1

for all those dormant BOFH's to spring into action! After all, nothing is more dangerous than a PHB with a little information!

--
Help find a cure for cancer. Join the [H]orde

PHB? by Hagmonk · 2003-10-13 09:45 · Score: 1

What's a PHB? It's not in FOLDOC. Is it a US term?

--
Ash OS durbatulk, ash OS gimbatul, ash OS thrakatulk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul! Uzg-MS-ishi amal fauthut burgulli.

Re:PHB? by Hagmonk · 2003-10-13 09:48 · Score: 1

Duh, after submitting this post someone mentioned Dilbert. Never mind ... move along ...

--
Ash OS durbatulk, ash OS gimbatul, ash OS thrakatulk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul! Uzg-MS-ishi amal fauthut burgulli.
Re:PHB? by TheFairElf · 2003-10-13 09:48 · Score: 1

PHB stands for "Pointy Haired Boss" - a reference to the boss in the Dilbert comic strips.
Re:PHB? by pbur · 2003-10-13 09:51 · Score: 1

From Dilbert:

Pointy Haired Boss
Re:PHB? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 09:51 · Score: 0

Pointy Haired Boss

(see Dilbert)
Re:PHB? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 09:55 · Score: 0

From Deez Nutz:

Phat Hot Bitch
Re:PHB? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:47 · Score: 0

PHB == Pointy Haired Boss From Dilbert....
Re:PHB? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 13:09 · Score: 0

If you don't know what a PHB is, then you probably are one! OK, OK! The answer: There is a cartoon called Dilbert which plays on the dynamic between the technical engineer (Dilbert), and his clueless boss. The boss as portrayed in Dilbert is seen as a reflection of millions of bosses who are technically illiterate to the point of being morons. The physical appearance of Dilberts boss is a rotund man with significant male pattern baldness. It then follows that the type of boss who is clueless (as witnessed by millions every day) is a 'pointy haired boss' or PHB. One example of something a pointy haired boss would do is get his desk extended so that the mouse could go all the way across the screen (instead of picking the mouse up and moving it).

War Stories by rf0 · 2003-10-13 09:46 · Score: 1

I remeber a nice time when at SGI (when they did do graphics) a senior manager asked the head of the support center what GFX was. He didn't quite understand when everyone laughed when he said storage. Well it was funny at the time

Rus

--
Cheap UK and US VPS

I'll train them by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · 2003-10-13 09:47 · Score: 1

100 bucks an hour for top-notch training. I'm MCSE-certified, that's worth its wait in roasted peanuts.

"Ooh, you wanted training on *Windows*? you didn't want to learn Lunix and you don't care about recompiling a kernel? You should have said so when we signed the contract Sir. I'll give you a rebate for the next 100 hours of Windows training ..."

--
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash

Re:I'll train them by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 09:52 · Score: 0

I'm MCSE-certified, that's worth its wait in roasted peanuts.
No comment. Except: How long is its wait? And what does it weigh?
Re:I'll train them by TheMidget · 2003-10-13 09:54 · Score: 1

I'm MCSE-certified, that's worth its wait in roasted peanuts.
Lemme guess... You are a PCLT too, aren't you? A Pidgin certified language technician!
Re:I'll train them by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:04 · Score: 0

PHB == Pointy Haired Boss
It's from "Dilbert".
Re:I'll train them by alien666 · 2003-10-13 10:17 · Score: 1

"Poor helpless bastard" works, too.

no suprise by Jonathunder · 2003-10-13 09:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

"YOU'D BE SURPRISED by what they don't know" says the trainer.

No one who has ever worked help desk would be.

Re:no suprise by Uhlek · 2003-10-13 11:55 · Score: 1

This attitude is one of the reasons why IT in general has gotten such a bad rap for so long -- and why many companies don't blink twice at the concept of canning every single one for a nameless, faceless outsourcing firm.

When you're a senior IT supervisor, and you have to counsel one of your employees, do you know all the laws regarding the proper way to do it? The forms that are required to be filled out? Who signs what on which pages? How to make sure that it becomes a solid record of a failure to perform so that if you eventually fire the individual, you can't be sued for wrongful termination?

Of course you don't. That's why you have HR people. It's their *JOB* to know. You don't see them snickering behind your back about how lame you are because you didn't understand Dept of Labor regulations.

The PHB mentality is also one reason why companies bring in non-tech folks to be managers. IT pros are so condititioned to hate management and all it entails that they limit their success -- and also limit the success of their departments. Believe me, a competent COO or VPO would much rather bring in a business-saavy tech hand as their point of contact rather than a [barely] tech-saavy business hand. However, such individuals are pretty hard to come by.

Don't believe me. Check around. What pays more. Someone with ten years of IT experience and an MBA, or someone with ten years of experience and a masters in mathematics.
Re:no suprise by fredklein · 2003-10-13 12:57 · Score: 1

do you know all the laws regarding the proper way to do it? The forms that are required to be filled out? Who signs what on which pages? How to make sure that it becomes a solid record of a failure to perform so that if you eventually fire the individual, you can't be sued for wrongful termination?

Of course you don't. That's why you have HR people. It's their *JOB* to know. You don't see them snickering behind your back about how lame you are because you didn't understand Dept of Labor regulations.

But I bet they _would_ "snicker" if I asked them how to spell my name, or which blank to put it into (when they are all clearly labeled). It is this level of stupidity that many computer (l)users show.
Re:no suprise by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 15:03 · Score: 0

Of course you don't. That's why you have HR people. It's their *JOB* to know. You don't see them snickering behind your back about how lame you are because you didn't understand Dept of Labor regulations.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The ability to memorize trivia with the ability to think clearly. Not the same things. Someone who can think clearly could excel at many different things.

The snickering is not because someone doesn't know certian facts. The snickering is because of stupidity.

This is old news by spacerabbits · 2003-10-13 09:47 · Score: 0

because nobody *ever* believed upper management could have found the sart button by themselves...

jr.

--

fortune is my favourite linux command

I hate this kind of article by ManoMarks · 2003-10-13 09:47 · Score: 3, Interesting

Based primarily on the experience of one tutor, they imply that there is this vast underground of executives secretly trying to figure out their e-mail. Facts, people, I want facts! Show me more than one over-priced tutor, or even 10. Anonymous surveys, large industries, etc. That would be real news. Not some journalist interviewing someone they met at a party and calling it news. ++

--

That's gotta fit into your schema somewhere

Apple mice by sjbe · 2003-10-13 09:47 · Score: 1

There is a reason Apple's sticking to mice with one button. And this is not ment in any condescending way.

Of course they could give two buttons and just default to having them do the same thing via software... It would let those of us with a clue work efficiently and keep it simple for those who can't handle it.

The one button thing is a triumph of dogma over common sense.

Re:Apple mice by Carnildo · 2003-10-13 10:06 · Score: 1

Most users don't have any use for more than one button. Those of us who do can go out and buy whatever we want. (Right now, I'm using a mouse with five buttons plus a wheel button)

--
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
Re:Apple mice by GoofyBoy · 2003-10-13 10:10 · Score: 1

Most users don't have need for the "Option/Apple" button or 16 function keys or number keypad.

Can't wait for these things to be "sold seperately"!

--
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Re:Apple mice by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:19 · Score: 0

This doesn't work on a powerbook and is THE reason
I don't own one. YOU HEAR THAT APPLE!
Re:Apple mice by Phil+Wilkins · 2003-10-13 10:37 · Score: 1

You do know that the software happily handles mice with a kajillion buttons, they just ship with a single button mouse.
Re:Apple mice by norton_I · 2003-10-13 10:45 · Score: 1

Unfortunately, that isn't always true. A lot of mac software doesn't take advantage of extra buttons simply because they are not present in the default configurations. Also, the Windows (and other) "left button performs the default action, right button gives you a list of actions" is a really powerful framework for allowing people to use computer effectively, and tends to be much more consistent on Windows where it is The Way(tm) than on Macs, where the other buttons are only treated as shortcuts.
Re:Apple mice by ceejayoz · 2003-10-13 10:53 · Score: 4, Funny

Of course they could give two buttons and just default to having them do the same thing via software

<PHB> Which one do I press? <SecretTutor> It doesn't matter. <PHB> What do you mean it doesn't matter?! There are two buttons! Why are there two buttons if it doesn't matter?! * PHB throws mouse out the window *** SecretTutor was kicked by PHB (fired)
Re:Apple mice by dtfinch · 2003-10-13 11:10 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I use my right mouse button all the time, and laugh at Mac users who have to hold down two or three keys and click to get the same effect.

Making users go out and buy two button mice isn't a good marketting technique. And the uncertainty over whether or not the end user will have that second button results in a lot of Mac software not supporting it at all.
Re:Apple mice by dad2viii · 2003-10-13 14:07 · Score: 1

Mac OS X works beautifully with a two or three button mouse out of the box. however, it does NOT default to one button functionality. Why should it, idiot executives aside? The left button is the same as the single button. The right button provides context-sensitive drop-down menus, same as control-click or control-hold. The wheel scrolls in the active window. I use a macally ioptinet USB optical mouse with my Power Mac G4 MDD. Fancier third party mice and trackballs like Kensington's are out there, too, with seemingly endless buttons (9 at my last count) for those who prefer them.
Re:Apple mice by Grizzlysmit · 2003-10-13 14:17 · Score: 1

Of course X's three button idea is much more optimal still, thats ome of the many reasons I hate using smac and bimbo's boxen, I cannot get used to their brain dead mousing.

--
in my life God comes first.... but Linux is pretty high after that :-D
Francis Smit
Re:Apple mice by pmz · 2003-10-14 01:55 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Dean 2004

The Democrats are actually more dangerous than the Republicans and will only lead our country into tyranny at a faster rate. The real fix is neither Democrat nor Republican but one that ignores the last 80 years of crappy legislation and recognizes the intents of our nations founders to emphasize Freedom over cozy social programs and pork-barrel contracting.

--
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Re:Apple mice by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-14 02:43 · Score: 0

"Blog for America"? Surely you mean "Blog for Blowhard Presidential Candidates"?

Trained PHB's != Good by greygent · 2003-10-13 09:48 · Score: 4, Funny

I guess getting tutored in secret is better than just floundering in ignorance.

I take it you haven't had the "pleasure" of your PHB embarrassing you by yelling "I know it's your T1 because our network guy teleported into the Baywatch hub and checked it!" at a Qwest network admin during a heated conference call.

For the PHB's here: It's 'telnet' and 'Bay Networks'.

Re:Trained PHB's != Good by appleLaserWriter · 2003-10-13 09:50 · Score: 1

"I know it's your T1 because our network guy teleported into the Baywatch hub and checked it!"

I want some of that training!
Re:Trained PHB's != Good by cr@ckwhore · 2003-10-13 11:05 · Score: 1

Or a recent PHB of mine who declared "Can't be bad data... it's Btrieve!", which is kinda like saying "My cat's breath smells like cat food"

Yes, Btrieve. No, it wasn't a long time ago... it was 2 months ago. Yes, I am no longer employed there, chosing to leave under my own power.

Same PHB about a year ago told a client, 100% seriously, to put a piece of tape over her internal PC speaker when the client called to complain that the $100,000 software application she bought from the company made excessive beeping noises.

--
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
Re:Trained PHB's != Good by LittleGuy · 2003-10-14 03:41 · Score: 1

I take it you haven't had the "pleasure" of your PHB embarrassing you by yelling "I know it's your T1 because our network guy teleported into the Baywatch hub and checked it!" at a Qwest network admin during a heated conference call.

Obvious because the Network Guy teleported through the Gena Lee No-LAN.

--
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.

Re:Training by pyrrhonist · 2003-10-13 09:48 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I wish I could get some.

She doesn't offer those type of services. I already checked.

First Post woo hoo

You fail it.

--
Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.

Engineering professors by Bud+Higgins · 2003-10-13 09:48 · Score: 1

I can understand why some CEOs don't know how to use a computer, but I was surprised at how some of my engineering professors couldn't use a computer. In my research group, the group secretary handled all of the day to day emails and such, while the grad students were always tasked with configuring my advisors new computers. what was even more rediculus was that he always had the newest and fastest computer to check email, while us grad students were giving slow hand-me-downs on which we had to run simulations and analyze data.

Re:Engineering professors by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:34 · Score: 0

what was even more rediculus was that he always had the newest and fastest computer to check email

I can understand why some engineering professors don't know how to use a computer, but I am surprised at how some engineering grad students don't know how to spell!

I'll take two! by winstarman · 2003-10-13 09:49 · Score: 2, Funny

What does it mean when your supervisor openly admits he has no clue what you do for 40 hours a week? I figure it's good job security for me... i think.

In secret though? craziness! My employer is too cheap to give me any training, so I doubt anyone else is either.

Best training I've ever done? An O'Reilly book... ANY O'Reilly book.

cheers-

--
Hard loop..... huh?

Dynamic Designs

Re:I'll take two! by gujo-odori · 2003-10-13 10:20 · Score: 1

Don't be so sure that it represents job security.

When instructions that layoffs must be made come down, managers need to decide who is going to go. Let's say that next week your boss was told to lay off two people from your department?

If you're lucky, (s)he will have a couple of people mind whom (s)he has just been waiting for an excuse to get rid of, and neither of them is you.

If you're less lucky, your boss will have to sit down and consider all of the staff members in the department, and choose two. Factors that are up for consideration may be seniority, salary, how many people are doing that job, or, often, how good/productive is each person. Now, if your boss knows in fairly well what 80% of the people in your department do, and thinks those people are doing it well, the other 20% are going to be looked at for the layoffs. Your chances of being on the chopping block just went *way* up.

You sound like you haven't been in the work force for long. I have, and believe me, it's usually never good for your boss to have no clear idea what you do or how you're doing it. The only exception to this is if you don't do much of anything and/or you're doing what you do very badly. Then you're better off if your boss doesn't know, but that won't protect you forever.

It's far better to have your boss know what you're doing, and know (or at least believe) that you are doing it very well.
Re:I'll take two! by winstarman · 2003-10-13 14:20 · Score: 1

I won't share where I work, but my supervisor is an old friend, we're pretty close. He's spent his entire life as a landscaping architect, I just happen to be under him because no one else can handle our department (apparently we're too weird to report directly to a VP.) I've been in the workforce long enough to know what type of job I like. In my last job I was scared for my job more than once, but that was the environment during the .com boom. I now have a better, more important, and much more rewarding job than I ever have before. Plus I think I'm more likely to be struck by a trash truck being driven by a midget with one glass eye than I am to get laid off.

I do agree it's good for a boss to know, but sometimes - the boss just doesn't - that's why I write a lot of reports and proposals.

And according to that near-worthless performance review I just had he thinks I'm doing good - with the exception that I need to dress more professionally. Go figure. :-)
Best Wishes-
R-

--
Hard loop..... huh?

Dynamic Designs

Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by Tom7 · 2003-10-13 09:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

Perhaps another reason "PHBs" might be heading to other sources than the IT staff is because the IT staff treats them with such contempt?

Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by splattertrousers · 2003-10-13 10:01 · Score: 1

Perhaps another reason "PHBs" might be heading to other sources than the IT staff is because the IT staff treats them with such contempt?
Or because if the IT staff keep buying hard-to-use equipment?
Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by H8X55 · 2003-10-13 10:16 · Score: 1

And that's what cracks me up the most. why do IT staffers feel the need to alienate the guy (or lady) who's signing their paychecks?!? i worked for a guy that was about as tech savvy as my great grandmother, but a hell of a salesman. we had our own little study sessions before the big meetings, and i spent plenty of time formatting his excel spreadsheets, cleaning up his hard drive and installing programs for him. he realized, i'd take care of him, and he'd take care of me ($$$). Too many of us remind me of the obnoxious guy from SNL - "Your company's computer guy!!!" You're paid to keep the machines in check, and support the users, heh, or vice versa. Just let 'em think it's magic, but give them some showmanship!
Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by onyxruby · 2003-10-13 10:16 · Score: 1

Nah, the good techs have learned how to hide their contempt of the masses after a few years. The ones that let it show don't last long. Replaced someone like that, very good at what he did, but drove the fucking user's nuts. That was how I got his job.
Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:31 · Score: 0

Could it be the other way around? I think so in fact I would say that's the real answer. I'm a developer for a consulting firm and I've been in meetings with the client where my PHB told the client the whole team are a bunch of losers!
Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:34 · Score: 0

I don't think anyone would have contempt for a boss like that. The person you described is NOT a PHB IMHO. My boss is, he's got the biggest ego I've ever had to deal with, he's incompetent, he ruins business relationships daily, he hates all of his employees unless they have breasts, he's a loud mouth JERK. You wanna trade?
Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by admiralh · 2003-10-13 10:47 · Score: 1

Perhaps we would hold them in less "contempt" if they were to listen to their IT staffs instead of overpaid outside "consultants" when it comes to technical issues.

Or maybe we would hold them in less "contempt" if they would look at the long term costs of their decisions, especially in terms of outsourcing/offshoring, instead of making short-term bottom-line decisions without regard to who might get hurt.

Or perhaps we would hold them in less "contempt" if they didn't surround themselves with cronies on the corporate boards, giving themselves astronomical salaries regardless of corporate performance, while simultaneously laying off workers and sending our best jobs overseas.

Need I go on? While there are certainly many techies who show "contempt" to the PHB's, the "contempt" (e.g., lack of decision making input, lack of training budgets, predatory hiring and outsourcing policies, etc.) shown by the PHB's towards the techies far exceeds any the techies have ever shown.

--
Hopelessly pedantic since 1963.
Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by stefanb · 2003-10-13 10:50 · Score: 1

Perhaps another reason "PHBs" might be heading to other sources than the IT staff is because the IT staff treats them with such contempt?
Maybe. However, in many larger organizations, IT goes right along with facilities and other administrative tasks, and staff is often treated as a pure caretaker or janitor. So contempt surely works both ways.
Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by halo8 · 2003-10-13 11:03 · Score: 1

yup.. i would mod you insightfull

i just hid my contempt and there ineptness by being enthutiastic.. the dummber they came the happier i seemed.. until it drove me to the bottle :)

cheerio

--
The More Knowledge you have the Luckier you Get- J.R. Ewing
Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by PrimeNumber · 2003-10-13 11:06 · Score: 1

...IT staff treats them with such contempt?

They started it.
Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 11:17 · Score: 0

Perhaps another reason "PHBs" might be heading to other sources than the IT staff is because the IT staff treats them with such contempt?

So they get treated better by other people's IT staff? I bet the PHBs pay the secret guys a lot more than they pay their own guys.
Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 13:29 · Score: 0

And PHBs treat IT staff like crap. :) There's a reason, I think, that the ability to use a computer is called computer literacy. Just like literacy, when a person doesn't know how to read they'll try to compensate all sorts of way. The last thing most are willing to do is stop and admit that they have a problem. It's mostly a matter of pride, but in the interim they can appear really stuck-up or abusive as a coping mechanism.

As a result, even the best IT staff will feel abused by a boss who they have to obey anyways let alone having to deal with a shy-offish attitude (of course, the opposite involving spitting a lot of jargon to overcompensate to hide their cluelessness is worse). Just like literacy, the real issue is to figure out how important it is. For most people in business, learning how to use a computer is just like reading, you might be able to get around not using it for a long while, but lacking such a skill can make it really easy for people to screw you over and make you lose your job (think hiring accountants without the smallest clue on how to balance a book and how easy that can lead to embelzment by your employees or worse).

So, my biggest suggest would have be to admit you have a problem and become trained. Now, hiring an outsider might be necessary especially if you've developed a lot of animosity between yourself and the IT staff. The next thing would be to begin apologizing for being such a prick. People might think you're stupid for not knowing about computers, but they'll hate you a lot more for being an asshole to compensate. Maybe then there can be some real communication between you and the IT staff, and that's good for everyone.
Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by wtansill · 2003-10-13 13:41 · Score: 1

> Perhaps another reason "PHBs" might be heading to other sources than the IT staff is because the IT staff treats them with such contempt?

Erm... sort of like the way they've treated us all these years?

--
The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by TheTick · 2003-10-14 00:59 · Score: 1

Perhaps another reason "PHBs" might be heading to other sources than the IT staff is because the IT staff treats them with such contempt?

It's a two-way street, a vicious circle.

IT doesn't understand what management does. Management doesn't understand what IT does. (This is hard to write without sounding as though I'm condemning one side or the other.) I've seen management dismiss the knowledge provided by IT gurus, and I've seen IT gurus totally fail to understand the market forces that drive a business.

With regard to the article, as IT-types we should recognize that (generally) sysadmins/programmers are not teachers. We may not be the best equipped to provide training to anyone in the company, let alone upper management. On the other hand, it shows incredible weakness of character (IMHO) to undertake secret training. I mean, I think it's fine that maybe my boss (or client, who is a sort of boss) doesn't know everything I do. Part of my purpose is to provide specialized knowledge. If the boss isn't comfortable with oowriter or evolution, fine. Not everyone share the benefits of a pathological interest in this stuff. Hire a trainer. Hold a seminar that will benefit the entire company. But don't pretend to know things you don't, while sneaking around trying to acquire the knowledge you pretend to have.

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--
bachiatari na torisetsu o yome!
Re:Uh, are you sure that's the reason? by smagruder · 2003-10-14 04:10 · Score: 1

...the "contempt"...shown by the PHB's towards the techies far exceeds any the techies have ever shown.

And the PHBs' contempt can be explained rather simply. They don't like the up-and-coming techs who have become brave enough (although they've always been smart enough) to second-guess their PHBs' frequent short-sighted decisions--and thus would rather outsource to those who shrink from saying anything that counters their decisions (i.e., mental slaves). Techies are generally much more honest folk than the PHBs. And this honesty naturally up-ends PHB tactics. PHBs don't like that and feel it usurps their authority and threatens their jobs.

--
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist

PHB -- Definition. by ToadSprocket · 2003-10-13 09:51 · Score: 1

Porcelain Hinged Box?
Per Hop Behavior from RFC 3246?
Carrying Case from Sony?

--

If this article confuses you, don't worry. It was posted yesterday in a much clearer fashion.

Re:PHB -- Definition. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 09:57 · Score: 0

Phat Hot Bitch

How does the saying go? by the+uNF+cola · 2003-10-13 09:51 · Score: 1

"Better to be a fool for a moment, than a fool for life." Hopefully, they'll learn it's ok to ask questions, and we will learn it's better to receive ignorance, and pay back in wisdon and intelligence.

This excludes of course, people of hubris and people who make mistakes over and over without trying to improve.

--

--
"I'm not bright. Big words confuse me. But Wanda loves me and that should be enough for you." - Cosmo

Better them than me. by pknoll · 2003-10-13 09:51 · Score: 1

Better an outside resource than someone on the boss's own IT staff anyway, I'd say.

Using myself as an example, I'd be the last one I'd want teaching technology to someone else. I may be a sharp admin, but I'm a lousy teacher.

Took me a while to realize that, but it's true.

Re:Better them than me. by the+uNF+cola · 2003-10-13 10:30 · Score: 1

Well, nothign wrong with answering simple questions, eh? You aren't teaching theory, you are pretty much teaching how to put the building blocks of knowledge into something useful.

The power button isn't hard to teach. Shutting down any machine, isn't hard, and writing down how isn't hard either. If you can draw a diagram showing layout and write documentation on how to maintain things, I'm sure you can explain that you aren't a great teacher, but here is how you do X.

--
--
"I'm not bright. Big words confuse me. But Wanda loves me and that should be enough for you." - Cosmo

This is a Good Thing by tessaiga · 2003-10-13 09:52 · Score: 1

All Dilbert jokes aside, which would you rather have, a technologically-impaired boss who recognizes his/her shortcomings and works to remedy it, or one who doesn't care and just keeps faking it?

Now what I'm curious about is how you'd figure out which of these consultants are the "good" ones, both in terms of being good at how the latest technology works and being able to explain it to the layperson. After all, when all your clients demand the level of secrecy described in the article, it's not like you can ask your potential tutor for references.

--
The bold print giveth, and the fine print taketh away ...

Re:This is a Good Thing by geekoid · 2003-10-13 10:09 · Score: 1

How about one who is completly ignorant and relizes all his bonuses depend on me?

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Re:This is a Good Thing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:27 · Score: 0

All Dilbert jokes aside, which would you rather have, a technologically-impaired boss who recognizes his/her shortcomings and works to remedy it, or one who doesn't care and just keeps faking it?

But most of them are beyond remedy. They go to these miracle healers and think they are cured. They come into my room and start smart assing about excel macros. They misapprehend my horrified looks as sign of adoration. And then the moment, when he finds out that we pay an expensive Oracle license, while having Access installed on all workstations for a cheap bulk license. I mean, he acquiring a little knowledge isn't the end of the story - he starts to THINK. *Shiver* You are opening Pandora's Box!

15 Fingers? by vrwarp · 2003-10-13 09:52 · Score: 0, Troll

Quote: "These secretaries were typing with 15 fingers and the poor executives were looking for the 'X' key and the 'Y' key," Wow.. the last time i checked people normally have 10 fingers..

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--vrwarp

Re:15 Fingers? by ManoMarks · 2003-10-13 09:54 · Score: 1

Not good secretaries. They grow an extra hand to deal with everything.

--
That's gotta fit into your schema somewhere
Re:15 Fingers? by paulfwilliams · 2003-10-13 10:05 · Score: 1

hyperbole.

At least it isn't one size fits all by bluGill · 2003-10-13 09:52 · Score: 1

At least this is personalized instead of a one size fits all. I just barely mised SAP training one place that tried to get to this level of user. The only problem is it was comptuer based, so once you loged into your own computer and launched this program from the network, it would teach you how to use the mouse to start programs. This was mandatory, and you had to do each step, didn't matter if you always use alt-f4 to close windows, you still had to prove you could do it with the mouse, (hit the X, the next lesson was file-> quit)

I've also sat through training where I realized half way through that I should take notes, because the interface was best learned as "next hit the 4th button on the 2nd row, and nevermind what you would think or the labels show". Unfortunatly for them, just before the program went live they changed the layout of the buttons (fortunatly they also made the buttons do what the labels said). In the end the only think useful out of that 2 hour class was the was a warning to save because the interface didn't always save where you would expect it to.

In other words, everyone needs help in places. If you need help with turning the computer on fine: get it. Please don't make those of us who know how to do complex things sit through a 1 hour class on turning it on.

ass backwards. by joe_bruin · 2003-10-13 09:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

a good manager hires people that are knowledgeable in the field that they work. very likely, they will be more knowledgeable than the manager himself. the manager must then rely on input from these skilled people to make informed decisions. that is, if the boss doesn't know if A is better than B, he should ask the employees and find out.

if the boss does not know anything, and is embarrassed to ask more knowledgeable employees, that boss should be fired. making decisions based on your secretly-aquired knowledge that may be incomplete, wrong, or totally inappropriate for the given situation, is probably the worst thing you can do.

now, if the boss is an idiot, and the employees are idiots, well, you're probably going to be seeing some blood sucking consultants eating your company's money pretty soon.

Re:ass backwards. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:07 · Score: 0

Absolutely!

The problem with these bosses is not lack of knowledge.

It's pride, hubris, insecurity, guilt (at the outrageous salaries they receive), and working in environments that are so cut-throat competitive that nobody wants to look a 'fool'.

All the best leaders I have worked with could be frequently heard to say -

" ... so, this is your department...tell me how it works and what we should do..?"

Those that arm themselves with a little dangerous knowledge usually get too full of themselves and forget their real job. They countermand the very (specialised) staff they hire to know these things.

Leave the tech stuff to the techies and do your job (wearing a suit and bullshitting).
Re:ass backwards. by Lehk228 · 2003-10-13 10:36 · Score: 1

ding ding ding ding we have a winner!
Mod parent up
If bosses were supposed to be experts in what all departments do... why the hell are there departments or emloyees....

--
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Re:ass backwards. by kcbrown · 2003-10-13 13:11 · Score: 1

a good manager hires people that are knowledgeable in the field that they work. very likely, they will be more knowledgeable than the manager himself.

Yes. But how is the manager to know whether or not someone he's hiring is knowledgeable in the field without having at least some knowledge of the field himself?
This is why it's generally desirable for a manager to have some experience in the field he's managing. If he can't get that experience directly, the least he can do is learn about the field.
If PHBs are getting training, even if it's "secret", then good for them: it means they at least realize that there's something they don't know. That's the most important first step towards improvement.
And if that training is any good, then perhaps it will cause the PHB to finally realize that his technical people really do know what they're talking about, and will therefore grow to trust them more than he had previously.
No, the biggest danger here isn't that the PHBs are getting training -- it's that they may be trained by people who themselves don't know what they're talking about. The latter is the worst situation because it will cause a PHB to be (at best) confused when what he's been taught conflicts with what his technical people tell him.

--
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
Re:ass backwards. by joe_bruin · 2003-10-13 13:40 · Score: 1

Yes. But how is the manager to know whether or not someone he's hiring is knowledgeable in the field without having at least some knowledge of the field himself?

well, that's the real trick, isn't it? i'm not a physicist, but i can recognize people who have a better understanding of physics than i. if i were hiring physicists, i'd have my staff of physicists interview that person and advise me on what to look for. so, if i were trying to build a nuclear reactor (which i'm not, for you feds in the crowd), i could bootstrap myself with one physicist to build a whole staff.

similarly, my boss doesn't write device drivers. but he can hire people who know how to. and if he needs to evaluate a device, he will give it to the people who will be working with it, and ask their opinion of it.

if you believe the peter principle, an employee gets promoted until he has surpassed his level of competency. then he's stuck. that means that your boss can probably do your job better than you can.
if you believe the dilbert principle, an incompetent employee gets moved to where he can do the least damage, middle management. this means that your boss is probably a moron.

i don't subscribe to either of those. i believe that management, in an ideal situation, promotes people who know how to lead and leverage the skills of those below them. if your boss is not leveraging your skills in making decisions, and instead referring to outside sources to get educated in your core business, then there is something seriously wrong with your organization.
Re:ass backwards. by plover · 2003-10-14 01:30 · Score: 1

I think you're missing the point.
These people were working jobs long before computers became ubiquitous. They've focused completely on their jobs for the last 20 years, perhaps 50-80 hours a week. The PC thing is just a time-sink to them, something that they know they should learn, but haven't had the chance. For a while in the 1980s-1990s there was even a question among some CEOs whether or not the PC-on-every-desk thing was another passing "fad", and they were simply too busy to have to learn yet another thing that was about to pass them by anyway.
Perhaps they're running Windows, and the few times they've sat down at the keyboard it's crashed. Or they did "something" wrong, or their "internet broke." And when they needed help they asked their local technoguru; some guy with the social skills of a goat and the attitude of a hornet. (If you've ever seen a Saturday Night Live sketch featuring "Nick Burns, Your Company's Computer Guy," ask yourself if you thought it was funny because those office people asked such stupid questions. If you answered "yes" then you probably aren't the kind of person your boss would willingly approach for help.)
I once had to show such a person which way to hold the mouse. She thought that since it was a "mouse", the cord was the "tail" and so the other end must have been the "nose", and she was frustrated because when she pointed the nose where she wanted to go, the arrow thing didn't move right. A smart person, she just had no exposure to the technology because she was so busy doing her own job.
And they recognize that the PC revolution has left them behind. It's no surprise that extremely busy, successful people have gotten themselves to this point. These people aren't trying to get enough training to know whether or not they should buy rack-mounted servers, they're trying to learn enough to be able to effectively use a spreadsheet, or be able to save a document in Word without losing it. These sorts of people already are typically smart enough to allow their hired technical guns to research the decision, mostly because they know they don't have time to do the research on their own. That's why they hire the techs in the first place.
Learning which end of the mouse to point is a far cry from considering themselves qualified to make 802.11b vs 802.11g type decisions. The people hiring these tutors aren't the idiots who make ill-informed choices. These are the people who have gotten to the top because of other skills, and they probably aren't going to get instantly stupid just because they can open their email without getting a virus.

--
John

Why PHBs are clueless by Tuxinatorium · 2003-10-13 09:53 · Score: 0

PHBs are the kind of people who, ever since middle school, were afraid of all those "really tough" math and science classes, so they went to harvard and took business/accounting/economics instead, which don't require more brainpower than tic-tac-toe. I mean, I pity the fool who doesn't take 400-level quantum mechanics courses in college. How stupid can these PHBs be?

--
Repeal the DMCA!

As an IT Director... by mrscott · 2003-10-13 09:56 · Score: 2, Insightful

I don't want my boss to be totally uninformed. I don't like working in a vacuum and I don't ALWAYS have the best solution. At times, believe it or not, my boss has some good ideas even though he's not as technically astute as I am in a lot of areas. Sometimes, being a little further removed from the problem can present a great solution.

Re:As an IT Director... by KingReuben · 2003-10-13 10:31 · Score: 1

Right. Its called TEAM WORK.

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--
om Shanti
Re:As an IT Director... by dheltzel · 2003-10-13 11:43 · Score: 1

You are the PHB.
Re:As an IT Director... by mrscott · 2003-10-13 13:28 · Score: 1

Not all managers are PHBs

If you were kidding, not a problem. If you weren't, a generalization that all managers are inept is simply incorrect. Yes - some are, but a whole lot aren't and are in their positions because they're good at their jobs.
Re:As an IT Director... by IANAAC · 2003-10-13 15:01 · Score: 1

The original was from a Director. Having known a few in my time, I can tell you that they don't know the gory details of the technology. They simply don't have enough time to dig into the technology. They know the high level specs, yes. The ins and outs, no. That's what they hire us for. And if they have any questions, I'm happy to answer. In any situation I can think of that I've been asked something, it's usually been for my opionion on a) the feasibility of something or b) if I don't think something's feasible, a suitable replacement.
Re:As an IT Director... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-14 00:14 · Score: 0

Again, a stereotype. I'm an IT director during the day and a modestly successful geek on my multi-OS network (Solaris, AIX, Linux) deep into the evening. There's a word for a middle manager who doesn't keep his technical skills sharp: unemployed.
Re:As an IT Director... by TiggsPanther · 2003-10-14 02:51 · Score: 1

Yes - some are, but a whole lot aren't and are in their positions because they're good at their jobs.

I've met a lot of Managers who are good at their jobs.
Sadly, they also think they're good at everyone else's jobs, too.

As a techie, I'm not qualified to make management decisions. But somehow managers (especially of the PHB mentality) seem to assume themselves quqlified to make technical decisions.

--
Tiggs
"120 chars should be enough for everyone..."

Blackmail by Goonie · 2003-10-13 09:56 · Score: 1

Is it just me, or can anyone see a great opportunity for some extra profits with a properly-located hidden videocamera here? "Pay up, or we send this video of you trying to insert your business card in the CD-ROM drive - not to mention wandering into the server room and asking what the pretty lights do - to the board?"

Note that you probably couldn't just e-mail the board the relevant clip, because the board would be just as clueless about technology...

But then again, $750 a month for a couple of hours training sounds pretty close to blackmail to me :)

--

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)

At least they are trying... by aserra · 2003-10-13 09:56 · Score: 1

You gotta give these folks a little credit - at least they are *trying* to learn (even though it will take more than four hours a month....). What about the PHBs that still don't know their mouse from a hole in the ground and make multi million$ decisions fro your organization?!?!?!

Part of the problem is that the techies don't want to become "suits" and the suits hate the techies for their knowledge. I would challenge the techies to begin doing the "management thing" and I woudl encourage the suits to use a PC for more than doing e-mail. If they can't handle the tools, they need to get out of the office.

The main probelm by t0ny · 2003-10-13 09:56 · Score: 1

I guess getting tutored in secret is better than just floundering in ignorance.

This, of course, comes as no big surprise to me. I have been working with the stupid and ignorant for the last two years, and have seen this exact thing happen.

But the problem with the 'secret tutor' is bigger than just simple ignorance. One issue is that, most often, the person doesnt even have the prerequisite knowledge to be learning what they are being tutored on in the first place. What their main 'learning' ends up being is just a notebook full of jargon and catch-phrases to swing around at ignorant managers or users to make themselves appear to be knowledgeable.

But unfortunately, nothing is really learned, and money is wasted which could have been better spent on somebody with some actual technical aptitude. The best one can do is just reveal their true ignorance to their bosses, jockey ahead of them in office politics, and eventually get them fired.

Swimming with the sharks IS a valuable IT skill...

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Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

Re:The main probelm by pyros · 2003-10-13 10:12 · Score: 1

Swimming with the sharks IS a valuable IT skill...
Awesome! I've already swam with blacktips and lemons. But don't you think all the SCUBA gear would make it hard to communicate in meetings?
Re:The main probelm by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:15 · Score: 1, Funny

I guess that sort of equipment comes in handy when you're that far up your boss's ass.

And Google says.... by Mark+Hood · 2003-10-13 09:59 · Score: 1

If you feel lucky, it takes you right to the source...

Mark

PS yes, I know the link doesn't actually have the definition of PHB, nor the acronym itself; but that's the sort of response you should give your PHB - exactly correct, yet useless; and preferably inciting a feeling of stupidity for asking you even once, and a dread of admitting they don't understand the answer.

PPS The above rambling run-on sentence included for any PHBs who clicked the link, in order to make them feel at home.

PPPS More PS than actual comment, should be caught by the lameness filter :)

PPPPS As should excessive smilies :)

--
Liked this comment? Why not buy me something nice

What's a PHB? by Ranger · 2003-10-13 10:00 · Score: 1

It's nice someone is getting training, but what does PHB stand for?

--
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"

Re:What's a PHB? by Grant_Watson · 2003-10-13 10:23 · Score: 1

It stands for "Pointy-Haired Boss;" it's an allusion to Dilbert's boss, and is usually used of bosses who don't know technology (or often how to manage people), but try to act as if they did.

For example, there's a column where Dilbert's PHB tells him to build a database. Dilbert wants to know if the boss just read that in a trade magazine some place, so he asks, "What color do you want that database?" The PHB replies, "I think that muave has the most RAM!"
Re:What's a PHB? by SmithG · 2003-10-13 14:22 · Score: 1

Well, according to AcronymFinder.com, we have a choice of the following...

Bachelor of Philosophy
Packet Handling Buffer
PCI Host Bridge
Per Hop Behavior
Player's Handbook (gaming)
Pointy Haired Boss (Dilbert)
Poly 2-Hydroxybutyrate
Psycho Hose Beast

I think I'm gonna go with that last one in this case.

"Can't read? Call 1-800-435-3928" by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:00 · Score: 0

You mean when slashdot isn't coughing up blood and dropping your posts all over the place?!!!

MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by mrscott · 2003-10-13 10:00 · Score: 4, Insightful

God yes - you hit the nail on the head. When reading some of the posts on Slashdot, I wonder how some of these people can hold a job given their holier-than-thou genius-of-all-tech attitudes.

Get over yourselves. An informed boss can make better decisions and work easier. And, if you can help them in a way that doesn't involve humiliating them, maybe it will come back and reward you.

Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Ohreally_factor · 2003-10-13 10:09 · Score: 1

Well, the main skill set that seperates a secret tech tutor from your typical slash dotter is people skills. I'm not talking about ass-kissing. I'm talking about being able to empathize with the person you are training and gearing the information to his or her cognitive style.

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It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by stratjakt · 2003-10-13 10:14 · Score: 1

IT geeks tend to think that the more confusing their dialogue sounds, the smarter they'll be percieved. It's the most annoying thing in the world to me, they literally degrade into talking jibberish.

This is 100% not the case, hence so many folks here on slashdot complaining about unemployment.

IT folks need to learn a hard lesson to get it right. It's not rocket science. How computers work, how a network works, while full of fancy acronymns and techno-babble, is fundamentally quite simple and anyone can understand it. Memorizing Cisco's product line by part number is not useful knowledge. Knowing what a router does is.

Analogy: I'm not a gearhead, but a good mechanic can explain whats wrong with my car in terms I understand. If he says part X needs replacing, I should be able to ask him what the part is, what it does, and get a sensible answer. If a mechanic started deliberately trying to talk over my head, I'd smell a scam, and find someone else.

--
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by metlin · 2003-10-13 10:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

Mark this as troll, if you will, but what you're saying is crap.

Yeah, I have no social skills. I'm what you would call a dork or a nerd. But thats ok, because am not here to be please everybody.

As far as the holier than thou attitude, yeah, so what? I'm choosy about the people I like and if I'm condescending its because a lot of people who're above me are there not because they're better than me but because they have the "Oh so called Social Skills."

I don't see the point -- as long as I do my job and get my stuff done, whats the point and the problem?

All that most "informed bosses" can do is kiss everyone's ass and pretend to know everything. And serve everything as sugar coated lies to the clients and investors.

I would much rather not pretend to empathize with such people.

And it is just this reason that I would prefer to be in an academic or research environment. Atleast its mostly free of this hypocritic attitude.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by stratjakt · 2003-10-13 10:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

I don't see the point -- as long as I do my job and get my stuff done, whats the point and the problem?

You'll be at the same job doing the same stuff your entire "career", be the first to be outsourced or replaced with an automated tool, etc..

Lets say tomorrow your job is eliminated, and the boss can keep one person on in another position. His choice boils down to you, or someone he likes and works well with.

Don't kid yourself, your magical tech skills are nothing. Anyone can do what you do, it's how you do it that matters.

I work in a small company, and we've been through at least a half dozen guys in the last year, all perfectly capable of doing the work, but couldnt fit in with the group we have. The smaller the team, the more important the work dynamic.

Any dope can work on an assembly line. But, the guy whos amiable and responsible ends up being foreman or shop manager.

--
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by spectecjr · 2003-10-13 10:23 · Score: 1

As far as the holier than thou attitude, yeah, so what? I'm choosy about the people I like and if I'm condescending its because a lot of people who're above me are there not because they're better than me but because they have the "Oh so called Social Skills."

I don't see the point -- as long as I do my job and get my stuff done, whats the point and the problem?

All that most "informed bosses" can do is kiss everyone's ass and pretend to know everything. And serve everything as sugar coated lies to the clients and investors.

Perhaps the hatred-filled, mocking tone of condescension you feel towards your bosses is the problem.

Tech skills aren't the be all and end all. Everyone plays a part in a business. If they're above you, try finding out why, and get the skills you need to get to that level.

--
Coming soon - pyrogyra
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:28 · Score: 0

Yeah, I have no social skills. I'm what you would call a dork or a nerd. But thats ok, because am not here to be please everybody

Right. Like the people that give money to your company? Customers? Investors?

As far as the holier than thou attitude, yeah, so what? I'm choosy about the people I like and if I'm condescending its because a lot of people who're above me are there not because they're better than me but because they have the "Oh so called Social Skills

No, they are above you because they contribute to the company's bottom line more than you do - they either genreate revenue or avoid unnecessary expenditures.

I don't see the point -- as long as I do my job and get my stuff done, whats the point and the problem?

No problem. You'll stay at the bottom of the food chain getting you stuff done. Pretty meaningless at the end of the day, considering it took your sorry ass tunnelling SSH. You don't deserve much better than a helpdesk - maybe a security job, as I suspect you could probably do a halfway decent job adding and removing user IDs. That also doesnt involve any user interaction.

All that most "informed bosses" can do is kiss everyone's ass and pretend to know everything. And serve everything as sugar coated lies to the clients and investors.

You don't have a clue.

I would much rather not pretend to empathize with such people.

And they'd prefer not to expose you to anybody that could bring the company revenue - you are like the sewer line. Sure, everyone understands that it neds to be there, but make it cheap and keep it out of the way.

And it is just this reason that I would prefer to be in an academic or research environment. Atleast its mostly free of this hypocritic attitude.

Again, you don't have a clue. Who finances research grants? Oh yeah, people with money. Adn what do they want for solid grants? Oh yeah, a coherent presentation. Not some drooling recitation of acronyms by a moron who can't do something as simple as tunnel SSH.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by 91degrees · 2003-10-13 10:28 · Score: 1

IT geeks tend to think that the more confusing their dialogue sounds, the smarter they'll be percieved.... This is 100% not the case,

Much as I hate to post a "Me Too", I totally agree! The people who have always struck me as intelligent are not those that I don't understand, but those who can explain new things to me in a manner that I do understand.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Telastyn · 2003-10-13 10:29 · Score: 1

If they're above you, try finding
out why, and get the skills you need to get to that level.
... and some knee pads.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Technically+Inept · 2003-10-13 10:30 · Score: 1

Really? You don't think social skills are important to people who manage other people? You don't think social skills are important to people who need to enter into deals with other people, or sell things to other people? Different people have different skill sets, and showing contempt for someone who lacks your skill set is, imo, unreasonable. Showing contempt for someone who is not interested in aquiring the skills necessary to do their job and tries to mask their ignorance is much more reasonable, and no doubt many execs fall into this category. But why direct your scorn at the ones who have made it a point to aquire a skill which is important to their jobs and which you already possess?

--
Now watch me hit this drive.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by spectecjr · 2003-10-13 10:31 · Score: 1

... and some knee pads.

Only if you're really bad at getting the skills.

--
Coming soon - pyrogyra
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by stonecypher · 2003-10-13 10:32 · Score: 1

I don't see the point -- as long as I do my job and get my stuff done, whats the point and the problem?

Because the rest of us can't fucking stand working with you. Contemptuous IT people act as if their five years of experience in a limited domain somehow makes them better than people with 30, 40, 50 years' experience in alternate domains.

Frankly, I don't care if you're the nobel laureate that single-handedly ironed out our disputes with martians over trade rights while solving world hunger with three nine volt batteries and two VHS tapes of MacGuyver. You're in public. Act like a big boy.

The problem with fields which are in demand is that the practicioners often don't see anything whatsoever wrong with their primadonna attitudes. You're just the computer dork. Get over it. And before you whine about how twenty minutes could save these people so much this and that and the other, let me remind you that each one of those people almost certainly also has some common skill set that you don't - simple home maintenance, car maintenance, farming, writing, et cetera. It's not that hard to stick up for someone else. Maybe spend less time sticking up for yourself and be a social person instead.

--
StoneCypher is Full of BS
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by GoofyBoy · 2003-10-13 10:33 · Score: 1

>As far as the holier than thou attitude, yeah, so what?

Oh, the irony.

>I don't see the point -- as long as I do my job and get my stuff done, whats the point and the problem?

Its because you will be doing the exact same stuff day after day, until the company finds you not so useful (pick your reason).

I had two friends who are unemployeed and they had the same attitude, "I'm the smartest one there and I am key to their main product." and "My boss has no idea what is going on, the customer always comes to me first." The point is that with a bit of "social skills" and forsight they would both be still employeed.

If you think you are not like that, why haven't you've gon into an academic or research environment?

--
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by gujo-odori · 2003-10-13 10:37 · Score: 3, Interesting

You seem to be rather young and without a great deal of work experience, but with a great deal of (maybe justified) ego.

I was like you once. Then, I happened to marry a wonderful woman, a successful entrepreneur who had saved her money until she could start her own business, then struck out on her own. She was quite succesful, and not just because of the high quality of her products, which she designed herself and made in-house. She was that successful because she has great people skills and could teach those skills to her sales staff. There are other businesses whose product is as good as hers, but not so many who are as good at making customers *want* to buy from them over the others.

One day, fully cognizant of my BOFHier than thou approach, she bought me a copy of How To Win Friends and Influence people. It made all the difference.

For a number of years, I worked at a corporate-oriented ISP. Not all of our new sales people had experience in the ISP and networking fields. We hired good sales people, even if they'd never worked in our business before. It fell to the engineering dept. to help them learn what they needed to know. As I developed better people skills, I became *the* person in engineering that they would go to with questions, and they learned. Far more than to my boss, who was a brilliant engineer and sysadmin, but whose overly technical explanations often left non-tech people with more questions and no more comprehension than they had at the start.

Our best salesman was a guy who walked in the door knowing nothing about the computer business. He'd been in advertising sales before, and was good at it. He didn't stay ignorant. After a few months of talking mostly to me, he was not only the top-producing salesman, he knew more about networking than any of the others. He didn't know how data is encapsulated on a T-1 and I didn't try to tell him, but he sure knew what he needed to know to sell one, and he knew who to go to if he didn't have the answer.

Your career will go much more smoothly if you develop the people skills to go with your technical skills.

BTW, if you think academic and research environments aren't filled with at least as much politicking and ass-kissing as any corporate environment, You need to put down that crack pipe and get clean . Sorry, sometimes my old attitude comes back. Academic/research environments are just as bad, and often worse than, the corporate world when it comes to those things.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by CmdrGravy · 2003-10-13 10:51 · Score: 1

I agree with this totally.

I've met a lot of people who are excellent at spouting jargon and turning very simple concepts into incomprehensible non-sense.

So far as I can see there is nothing especially complicated about IT, at the end of the day it boils down to "do this - or do that" and the kind of competent staff you really want in your IT department are people who can explain the difficult stuff in a way which anyone can understand. This is also the best way to make sure they really do know what they are talking about as well.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by ChuckleBug · 2003-10-13 11:01 · Score: 1

Yeah, I have no social skills. I'm what you would call a dork or a nerd. But thats ok, because am not here to be please everybody.

If you're IT, you are doing a service job, and that means social skills DO matter, at least if you want to do your job well.

I used to do IT at a university where we were hired by different departments to handle day-to-day problems, design and build networks, instruct users, and so on. Some departments weren't allowed to use us because they had internal IT departments, and those people used to sneak us in because those internal departments were full of insufferable and condescending hypergeeks. They would waltz into an office or lab, unannounced, and upgrade software without telling the user. They'd break things and blame the users. And when one of the despised end-users sent email, they'd get ultra-literal, one-sentence answers, and trying to get help meant playing an infuriating game of "phrase the question exactly right" with the people who are supposed to be paid to help. They came to us because we showed them some basic respect. That trait earned us money, and made our jobs a lot more pleasant.

It's amazing how much better it is when you just help people, and show a little humanity rather than expending energy holding them in contempt.

Judging people just by what they know about computing technology is unfair, and those people you look down on probably have it all over you in some area you haven't checked on. Sure, some people really are hopeless dipshits, but they're a lot rarer than you might think.

If you decide someone's a no good idiot, that's all you see. If you instead put a little effort into finding the good in people, you'll do a better job, you'll find rewarding relationships you wouldn't otherwise, and you'll be happier and more successful.

Judging from your tone, you probably aren't too open to this advice. But I'd prefer to think you'll figure it out some day.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by pete-classic · 2003-10-13 11:03 · Score: 1

Because the rest of us can't fucking stand working with you. [. . .]

You're just the computer dork.

[. . .]

Maybe spend less time sticking up for yourself and be a social person instead.

I'm sure you can't see the inconsistancy in your own thinking. I'm really just responding to let you know that you are the kind of asshole that gets high schools shot up.

-Peter
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by jjhlk · 2003-10-13 11:10 · Score: 1

"techno-babble" is just jargon. Jargon exists for everything you could possibly do. Writers use jargon for literary terms, mechanics use jargon for part names, etc.

I don't know about making things simple for people, but jargon is extremely useful (since it's just terms in a specific context).

Maybe if you work in a certain job, you should learn all the jargon associated with it.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Cyno · 2003-10-13 11:23 · Score: 1

Reminds me of the degree-from-blah-blah-blah-university carrying executive management. Hard to talk to, rude, impatient, think they know-it-all, etc.

Nobody knows much of anything, but everyone has an ego. But ours really is bigger, we worked for it.

Its all related to that "culture" thing at NASA.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by stonecypher · 2003-10-13 11:27 · Score: 1

I'm sure you can't see the inconsistancy in your own thinking.

Perhaps you would point it out? I see no inconsistency in "you have a drastically overinflated self image, and need to be knocked down a notch and stop acting as if you were to efeete to mingle with us lowly peasants."

I'm really just responding to let you know that you are the kind of asshole that gets high schools shot up.

Spoken like a shooter. "It's your fault I pulled the trigger!"

--
StoneCypher is Full of BS
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by enjo13 · 2003-10-13 11:32 · Score: 1

Your right, but so very wrong.

My 'magical' tech skills most definitely are something. Not everyone can do what I do. The math and logic skills involved in being a good programmer ARE quite rare. If your attitude truly is that IT talent (particularly high level programmers) is easily replaced then you will have a revolving door of worthless programmers running your company directly into the ground.

A good programmer is extraordinarily valuable, not only in what they can do as a programmer but in what they bring to the team as a whole.

I do agree that working within a team is undeniably important. And the poster who doesn't beleive that will have a very hard working life. Still, to say that this stuff is easy (and to further compare it to assembly line work!) is so wrong that it's not even funny. Maybe in what you do, but when working on multi-million dollar projects involving dozens of complex systems... you better beleive that talent matters.

--
Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by The+Tyro · 2003-10-13 11:43 · Score: 1

Indeed, you are not here to please everybody (unless you're a public relations person *shudder*)... but it's unwise to gratuitously make enemies.

Seriously... are you really defending your condescending, arrogant, holier-than-thou attitude like it's a good thing? I hate people like that, and I'd say most people hate people like that. Don't you hate the woman at the DMV that talks to you like you're a child? Well... how do you think your boss and colleagues like it when you publicly humiliate them due to their lack of tech knowledge? Are you really going to justify it based on the predicate that they're inferior, and only got there because they kissed ass? I try to never talk down to my patients... they don't deserve it (wtf should they be experts on medicine? if they were, they wouldn't need me!), it harms the theraputic relationship, and it makes me look like an arrogant prick. Don't you hate arrogant doctors? Of course you do... everyone does... and so do I... so I strive to never be one.

Successfully navigating the corporate ladder is an art in and of itself... an acquired expertise, if you will. People like that can hurt you... badly. They can make your job really suck; they can even cost you your job. Why antagonize them? If you can't talk to them without burning them down to a cinder, then hang out in the server room and avoid them (you'll probably get more work done by avoiding their endless meetings anyway).

I'm not saying you don't have the right to dislike people... you most definitely have that right... but you're hurting yourself if you advertise that antipathy. Sublimate that emotion somehow. If your drive for revenge is that great... you could discretely BOFH them, but never publicly flaunt your enmity... you're just telling them where to shoot when things go bad.

--
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by jhylkema · 2003-10-13 12:02 · Score: 2, Insightful

His point, while put in a rather sneering, ranting tone, is well-taken. It is a fact that most PHBs don't get there because of merit. They get there because they went to the right prep school, Daddy knew the right people, their frat brothers (whom they used to drink a fifth a weekend with) helped them, etc. Also, there is some credence to the notion that B-schoolers don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. As a former one myself (before I saw the light,) I can tell you that they have as many classes on etiquette and protocol as they do academics. Look where business administration majors score - fifth from the bottom! Where's my major? Second from the top, even beating out comp. sci. and engineering. WOOHOO!!
I agree that social skills are necessary. I agree that one has to be able to get along to a certain extent. But social skills are one thing, getting by because you're a bullshit artist in an expensive suit is quite another. Most corporate higher-ups fit into the latter category, and we saw it in excelsis during the dot.bomb era.
Now it's my turn to rant. This proves what a lot of people suspect about CEOs and other higher-ups in companies. Namely, that they are spoiled, pampered, self-important, pompous assholes who have never worked a hard day in their lives and wouldn't know an honest day's work if it bit them in the face. They don't need the training because, hey, we're bigshots. We've people for those menial tasks. "We're too good for the mere IT mortals, we deserve private training." Yeah, along with your private dining room, private bathroom, private jet, etc., etc., etc . . .
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by bheer · 2003-10-13 12:10 · Score: 1

> The math and logic skills involved in being a good programmer ARE quite rare.

Since you're a math hotshot: if your boss can product a gaggle of Bangalore geese who're *all* 75% as good as you are, and are so sheeplike that they all put together have 10% of your ego-related problems, AND will work for 1/6th of what you make, does it or does it not make sense for your boss to offshore your job?

--
Go somewhere random
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by GoofyBoy · 2003-10-13 12:14 · Score: 1

There is a world of difference between high-school packed with immature teens and the work place where people need to get a job done and then go home to their real lives they care about.

--
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · 2003-10-13 12:17 · Score: 1

Not everyone can do what I do.

Yeah, but a whole bunch of guys in India can do it for 50 cents an hour.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by nosferatu-man · 2003-10-13 12:22 · Score: 1

There's a direct inverse relation between arrogance and ability in technology, I've found. The very best programmers, admins, help desk, and QA people that I've worked with have been without exception free of this inflated and hilariously unjustified sense of self-worth, what you might call the "slashdot attitude." The really horrid assholes have always also been incompetent jerks who's posturing is an attempt to hide how poorly they understand their job.

'jfb

--
To spur "enterprise Linux," Big Bang, the distributed two-phase commit.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by pete-classic · 2003-10-13 12:44 · Score: 1

Really? Where do you work?

-Peter
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Nept · 2003-10-13 12:45 · Score: 1

I don't care about managers that don't have strong tech skills and want to learn, what bothers me are the arrogant PHB's who pull everything out of their ass ...
It's really as simple as that. But sadly, there are just too many managers who rely on bullshit to get by.

--
"Teachers leave us kids alone ..." - Roger Waters, Pink Floyd
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by pete-classic · 2003-10-13 12:55 · Score: 1

Perhaps you would point it out?

Sometimes I hate being right. I though I illustrated it pretty clearly by what I chose to quote. Would you consider it unfair if I paraphrased your post as "You annoying dorks should have nice social skills, like me."?

Or perhaps you consider belittling "dorks" to be a valid social skill. (In which case I amplify the comment that we now come to.)

you are the kind of asshole that gets high schools shot up.

Spoken like a shooter. "It's your fault I pulled the trigger!"

You seem to take cause to imply responsibility. I don't.

Maybe you are a swell guy and we are just failing to communicate. But you come off as an arrogant ass that takes exception to anyone who is socially "beneath" him displaying any of the very same traits you possess.

-Peter
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by 1lus10n · 2003-10-13 13:41 · Score: 1

yeah the india tech might be able to do it for 1/6th, but on average the india techs take 6 people to do the job of 1 american. not to mention property costs in places like mumbai cost just as much has boston and LA.

americans are the most productive employees in the world. its a fact. you can try to offshore jobs all you want, but despite what management thinks not everyone needs to kiss their ass or be passive about everything. its that kind of thinking that leads to disgruntled and unproductive employees. and kills creativity. management is the most mindless and useless bunch of people on the planet, they should be the ones who are outsourced.

--
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by DMadCat · 2003-10-13 14:10 · Score: 1

Speaking as a "holier-than-thou genius-of-all-tech" IT Support person, I have to disagree.

IT Support people can be condescending, I agree. It usually happens when we're asked to perform someone else's job when we're called upon to help. This tends to come in such terms as, "I don't understand, can't you just DO it?" and my favorite, "I don't care how it works, just fix it!"

Perhaps if the "informed boss" would take a few moments to actually listen rather than grumble that he doesn't have time and then condescendingly wave us away after we've fixed his no-brainer we might be a little less tempted to laugh at his stupidity.

I for one have no problem helping someone who WANTS TO LEARN and given the years it has taken me to learn what I know I can't be condescending towards those who know less in my particular field.

On the other hand, if you take a job as an Administrative Assistant to the lead Sales Manager of the East Coast and you put on your resume that you know Word and Excel, do NOT call me five times asking me to fix your first assignment because you think spacing over to the far end of the page is the way to create columns in a Word document.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 14:26 · Score: 0

Then there's Jaime Zawinski
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Lord_Dweomer · 2003-10-13 14:34 · Score: 1

Hmmm, what about Steve Jobs? Did he get where he is because he went to prep school or knew the right people? No, he knows his shit, and he knows how to influence people. I'm so sick and tired of nerds (and yes I'm using that in a condescending manner) who think that just because their knowledge set is more technical that that makes them superior. You mock them because they can't figure out computers? What about the ones that can, like Steve Jobs.
Knowing a lot about technology and computers is not an excuse to not have basic social skills.
People with REAL skills don't need to go broadcasting that by putting down people who do not. It just shows immaturity and the inability to appreciate the skills of others that may complement your own.

--
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by grasshoppa · 2003-10-13 15:28 · Score: 1

Get over yourselves. An informed boss can make better decisions and work easier. And, if you can help them in a way that doesn't involve humiliating them, maybe it will come back and reward you.

Absotutely, I couldn't agree more.

Except most bosses don't want to be informed. Not really. They don't want to take the time to learn what they need to learn to make the informed decisions, they want you to tell them that they are right in their biases ( anti-linux, anti-ms, you name it, I've seen it ), and any views to the contrary, and you are being an arrogant jerk, like all tech guys are ( their words, typically ).

Technology scares people. And when people get scared and loose control ( which is what all PHBs truely fear ), their outlook on people become very colored by the reigning prejudices.

I am successful just because I don't talk down to people, I don't talk up to them. I give them the terms they need to know and patiently explain what they need to hear. But I have been called an arrogant prick, just because I wouldn't kiss someone's ass about their tech biases.

So were you to ask me which side I believe more, I would say I side with the techies.

--
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Ellen+Ripley · 2003-10-13 17:46 · Score: 1

Perhaps the hatred-filled, mocking tone of condescension you feel towards your bosses is the problem.

No, bosses who don't know as much as we do and won't admit it are the problem. Management needs to stay the hell out of technology, because they're ignorant of it. Why should we take the rap for a problem that's created by management's attitude that life is and should be a goddamn ass-kissing and popularity contest. They're in the wrong, why the fuck do we have to adapt?

--
mods metamodded as "Unfair"
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by stonecypher · 2003-10-13 18:38 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Sometimes I hate being right.

This seems about as problematic as an Arab nomad behing hydrophobic. Hint: patting yourself on the back doesn't make you seem right.

I though I illustrated it pretty clearly by what I chose to quote.

Oh, sure. And if what you chose to quote didn't significantly alter the meaning of what was being said by inference of context, you might have half a point.

Or perhaps you consider belittling "dorks" to be a valid social skill.

No, but I'm more than happy to sound off about the holier-than-thou tech jock that read two Compaq manuals and thinks he's Wozniak.

You seem to take cause to imply responsibility. I don't.

Bullshit. If it weren't about responsibility, the quote would pack no weight. That's like saying "you're the kind of guy that sets off avalanches sneezing."

The implication that you're now pretending that you didn't make is that I'm some sort of overbearing bully. What you cartoonishly fail to realize is that the converse is true: you IT dorks lord your competence over other people's heads as if it is the very definition of being a tool using mammal to know how to take a macro virus out of MS Word. If the user cannot merely upgrade a video driver to fix a bug, they are the simplest of buffons, not fit to spit shine the shoes you won't wear because they're too old. If the user can't do something ostensibly as simple as running their virus updater, they are beneath the contempt of the species, not fit to pity, surely encoded in a lesser genome made of tar, filth, potted meat product and caffeine-free rc cola.

Anything the user doesn't know how to weild is blamed on the inability to handle simple tool use, something a different IT orangutan in a different branch of this thread is being his chest about at this very moment.

What you aspergers rejects don't seem to fully grasp is that that's not simple tool use. When I have to call AAA because my car started making a horrible sound while I was driving, does the tow truck guy make fun of me for not recognizing the sound of a pebble stuck under my brake pad? No. When my garbage disposal overflows, and the plumber has it fixed in under five minutes with a drain snake after I flooded my apartment for two days being certain of my ability to handle it myself, do I get an earlashing about how I should learn to use a wrench and a flashlight? No. When the neighbor kids hear you can burn letters into someone's lawn with fertilizer, does the grounds guy harass me for not knowing you can't just wash it away because it'll be permanent? Nope.

The problem isn't that people can't handle simple tool use. The canonical example, my mother, which by rote cannot set either her VCR clock or her car stereo presets, is quite adept at moving between MS Word and IE. This is all a user should need to know how to do, other than turning the damned thing on and off, and maybe how to start pinball. It's a tool! It's a multiple thousand dollar tool! Why can't it just be made to fucking work right?

Granted, that's voiced as Joe Average User; like every slashdot relic, i yearn for the days when the subpar BBS loser knew his IRQ and DMA/HDMA list by heart, and could probably whistle his init strings. Big scary microsoft word doesn't scare me any more than you, and like you, I find it somewhat disappointing that there's so much confusion over a tool which generally works without fuss.

Unlike you, I still have ties to my mortal soul. I remember what it was like to be befuddled by the literally hundreds of similarly (badly) named menu items, grotesque lists of impenetrable options arranged in a fashion familiar only to those familiar with the underpinnings of software and the generic OS metaphor.

Of course, you seem to have missed in both of your points that I was doing something other than to belittle IT jocks. For one, I'm only belittling those which have the attitudes; I for one didn't, back when

--
StoneCypher is Full of BS
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Oddly_Drac · 2003-10-13 20:26 · Score: 1

"maybe"

Maybe Natalie Portman will express a desire to date a geek.

Meanwhile the _certainty is that they'll listen to besuited salespeople and friends on golf courses about the real cut'n'thrust technological advancement, and come tell you about it rather than asking an opinion. You're beneath asking, y'see.

So the reason the PHBs get treated with such contempt is karmic. What goes around, comes around. So you keep hoping that someday they'll throw you a bone.

While you're about it, check out who else in the heirarchy they 'reward'.

--
Oddly Draconis
Too cynical to live, too stubborn to die.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by frozen_crow · 2003-10-13 22:18 · Score: 1

They're in the wrong, why the fuck do we have to adapt?
Because they have the money and they make the rules?
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Moraelin · 2003-10-13 22:43 · Score: 1

You give a good example with car mechanics. Guess what? They too use jargon. Their job too has very speciffic names for things. If, say, your injection is shot, they'll call it "injection", not "the thingy which squirts gas". If a spark plug needs replacing, they'll call it just that: "spark plug". Not, "the thingie which makes cute sparks and lights the gas".
See? They too have a very speciffic jargon, and will use it.
So then why would it be any different for CS? Just because you have no knowledge of what an "UDP datagram" is, doesn't mean I'll call it something else.
It's not about sounding smart. It's that for the last 50 years, computer science used very well defined names for very well defined things. That's why it's science and not small talk.
Wooing your customers or PHB is small talk. It is actually _supposed_ to be vague and fuzzy and emotional.
But science is precise. It must use speciffic words to convey very exact information. It's not supposed to woo bosses, it's supposed to accurately describe phenomena and solve problems. Plain and simple.
And I'm not gonna start calling them silly names like "uh, little internet-like pieces of information" just to avoid tripping your ego. If you don't understand those terms, then jolly well stick to what you do understand, and let me do my job.
And, no, I'm not against lack of knowledge. If your job isn't to program EJBs, yes, you don't really need to learn anything about EJBs. If your job isn't to program web services, yeah, you don't really need to learn anything about SOAP or parsing XML. Stick to doing _your_ job. We need people good at management or marketing, so there's no shame in being good at those.
But I _am_ against the infatuated monkeys who can't simply admit that they don't know something. The kind who'd rather belittle someone else's job than admit, plain and honest, that they don't know much about it.

--
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Jerk+City+Troll · 2003-10-13 23:27 · Score: 1

Well, I meta-moderated the "Flamebait" moderation as "Unfair". I know it's not much, but at least you know that's a little less probability that the asshole who moderated you will get points again.

You're absolutely fucking right on this topic. There's not a point you wrote that I don't agree with and I wish more people would get these hints. As for myself, I recommend that if people want to buy tools costing several thousand dollars that "just work", they should by Apple.

Cheers!

--
Join Tor today!
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by TnkMkr · 2003-10-14 01:06 · Score: 1

You have a good point

Academic enviroments are usually 10x worse than work enviroments. Having just fled from gradschool I can safely say that I witnessed proffessors actively supressing students research efforts simply because the student's research made their own research look bad. (Truth and exploration be damed)

The romantic notion of pure research and a academic kinship is a load of crap. In academics funding is all that matters and funding is based on how geewiz you can make your research look. And god forbid that upstart down the hall brings your theories into questions.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by NDPTAL85 · 2003-10-14 02:19 · Score: 1

The problem is your kind of attitude is self defeating. IT is all about support and service. You support and service an infrastructure and a customer base. If you are not able to relate with others well your role will be marginalized and eventually outsourced.

Whether you get to keep your job is up to you.

--
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by NDPTAL85 · 2003-10-14 02:25 · Score: 1

There are politics anywhere there's more than one person. In the academic or research environment you'll have to either achieve tenure or be awarded grants.

You can't do that by being a social misfit.

--
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by fizbin · 2003-10-14 02:36 · Score: 2, Insightful

If they're above you, try finding out why, and get the skills you need to get to that level.
This assumes that one is inside a rationally run organization, in which people obtain their position for some reason that makes some vague kind of sense, or at the very least is not massively unfair. I would conclude from the level of rage in the grandparent post that the poster is not in such an organization. I would go further and state that the rationally run organization is an exceedingly rare beast.

True, I won't deny that there are some people who make bad managers and that it is, ceteris paribus, more useful to get along with your coworkers than not. However, in my experience the idea that someone's "people skills"(*) are the prime determiner in who advances to upper management is not supported by the evidence. Also, although I am in an organization where lower- and middle-management promotions seem to make sense, I have been in ones where they don't make any sense either. And, frankly, it's hell to work for one of those people.

On that note - why is management a promotion? That is, why is the reward for doing a good job a different job at which one may not do as well? Why do managers need to be paid more than the people they manage - we've already suggested in several places that managerial skill and technical skill are two different things; why then must the pay between managers and the techies they manage be linked in this fashion? If managerial skill were sufficiently rarer than technical skill, of course I grant that the market would presumably ensure this result. However, consider the case where an underling is more valuable to the company than some middle manager above him in the org. chart. I think it can be assumed that this case, while perhaps not overly common, is not vanishingly rare. What happens in this case? Is the manager ever paid less than his subordinates, or is the manager's pay bumped up enough to cover the horrible embarrassment that would result if it were discovered that someone he directs makes more money than he does? How does one reward valuable programmers without making them not programmers?

(*) I'd like to see a definition of this - does it mean the ability to manipulate people into doing what you want? Does it mean an ability to get people to like you personally? I ask because supposedly these "people skills" are related to the "social skills" that one picks up by being herded together at a young age with all the other local children who happen to share a similar birthyear: that is, how to bully, redirect the bullies onto others, or take the abuse.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Havokmon · 2003-10-14 03:12 · Score: 1

God yes - you hit the nail on the head. When reading some of the posts on Slashdot, I wonder how some of these people can hold a job given their holier-than-thou genius-of-all-tech attitudes.
Get over yourselves. An informed boss can make better decisions and work easier. And, if you can help them in a way that doesn't involve humiliating them, maybe it will come back and reward you.
Ahh yes. Consider the following circa 1995, when the 'informed boss' really knew very little.
"Are we going to put up a web site?"
"Yes, I just need something to put up there. Merketing stuff.
"Ok, and it's going to be on an NT server, right?"
"No, NT crashes if you send it an invalid packet, I'm not putting that on the internet."
"But that's what everyone else is using."
"Then they can crash. This is supposed to be a static site, I don't want to have to maintain a billboard."
"It's going to run NT, and that's that."
"Fine."
Later, PHB finds out web site is running Linux - gets royally pissed. Web site never crashes.
Fast forward to last year. PHB has built a new company, I left same company years earlier. Had had it out with PHB multiple times between then, but PHB is paying me to be a consultant:
"HEY! Did your Terminal Server get hacked?"
"Wha? What are you talking about? How do you know it's hacked?"
"When I go to it, it says "Fucked by poisonbox"
"What? Are you sure that's you? I've heard of that web exploit, but when I was there last week I turned off all the services the programming consultants had open and told them not to open them again because you were only using the terminal server."
"Oh no, we use the web services - did you get hacked?"
"No, I don't use IIS, and I wouldn't recommend you use it either - it's basically the same thing we went through at XXXXXX, and why I run Linux."
So, from my perspective, the PHB finally got what he wanted (and deserved).
Now, if you really meant a boss who was a tech - and has a clue - then that's completely different.

--
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by ScottEllsworth · 2003-10-14 04:43 · Score: 1

Depends on the job. If your job is to keep the machines up without ever talking to a human, sure! Be a condescending ass if you like.

If, on the other hand, your job is like every job I have had - solving technical problems to produce whatever the organization produces - then you do need social skills. More to the point, you need to have people trust you. If you are good at technical things, then you probably know more about them than the decision makers. They are not going to absorb your knowledge in an hour of mentoring, so they will still be making their decision about technical issues based on whether they trust you.

Further, the claim "if I'm condescending its because a lot of people who're above me are there not because they're better than me but because they have the "Oh so called Social Skills." is nonsense. If the people above you are really utter loads, find a new job. If, on the other hand, they have better social skills than you have shown, it may be that they are above you because people trust them.

Ask yourself this question. If your accountant's response to "why did you deduct $4286 as charity this year?" was "I am the accountant, and you are the clueless loser. Don't ask stupid questions.", would you feel happy? More to the point, would you keep trusting him with your finances?

I wouldn't.

Finally, when you stop respecting people, you stop listening to them. In many cases, you are right about what they want, and thus not listening is the right answer, but you will miss things, and you will never know that you missed them. THe people you are filled with contempt for _do_ know when you are writing code/emails/shell scripts during meetings, and are not filled with trust later.

People who do not trust you are not likely to promote you. Blame social skills if you want, but it sure seems likely that they have a real reason.

--
--- scott_ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu Java, Databases, and Software Magic
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by stonecypher · 2003-10-14 04:55 · Score: 1

Unfortunately, you also posted, thereby undoing your metamoderation. ;)

Thank you for the thought.

--
StoneCypher is Full of BS
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by nosferatu-man · 2003-10-14 05:49 · Score: 1

Sure. The exception that proofs the rule, as it were.

'jfb

--
To spur "enterprise Linux," Big Bang, the distributed two-phase commit.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by John+Courtland · 2003-10-14 07:12 · Score: 1

You're generalizing what he said. It's all about the experiences you have as an employee that really taint your view on management, or give it a boost. Perhaps you have had good managers. I, most definitely, have not. From the tech manager who attempted his own repairs of CUSTOMER MACHINES and caused over $1,000 in damage before we made sure he never did that again, to the HR guy who was the boss's brother (the boss was smart though, which is why he was my favorite, he had a good head on his shoulders and he knew when to listen and when to give suggestions) and only got the job through his blood-line and proceeded to fuck that place up royally, I have seen many bad managers. I would say that the lion's share of management is not up to par with getting their job done properly. The same could be said of IT as well.

And you're right, having social skills is huge in the private sector. But as the great-great-grandparent (or wherever this started) said "That's why I like research" (or something similar to that), maybe he doesn't give a shit about people. That's fine, leave him to his work. I don't like a lot of people because they are false. I play their games because at the end of the day, I have to eat. But that's just me.

--
Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Lord_Dweomer · 2003-10-14 08:23 · Score: 1

" And you're right, having social skills is huge in the private sector. But as the great-great-grandparent (or wherever this started) said "That's why I like research" (or something similar to that), maybe he doesn't give a shit about people. That's fine, leave him to his work."
My point was that as someone who obviously values knowledge (he likes research), he should be intelligent enough to know not to put down others because they have a different skillset than he does.
While I agree about people who just get positions because of family/connections, this is HARDLY the majority in the business world. In fact, many businesses would look down on that (especially publically traded ones) as it would probably be better for the investors for them to call in someone from outside who was highly trained and skilled. I'm not saying people don't get jobs from family, I'm just saying its not NEARLY as common in the big corporate world as many on here would like to believe.

--
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Jerk+City+Troll · 2003-10-14 14:04 · Score: 1

Unfortunately, you also posted, thereby undoing your metamoderation. ;)

Meta-moderations are undone by thread participation? I do not believe this is the case. I have posted to stories where I have then meta-moderated ("hey, I just read that!"), but not the same thread. I hope that is not the case. However, I think it is likely I am not the only M2 who protested. :-)

Thank you for the thought.

No problem! I know it boils my blood when I spend my valuable time to make a comment on Slashdot, only to be censored by some pea-brain who think they're being cute. By the way, despite my sig, I do pay close attention to what is actually being moderated. There are fringe cases where I just absolutely must agree with a negative moderation. These usually involve gay porn pictures involving a gaping rectum.

--
Join Tor today!
Re:MOD PARENT AS HIGH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE by Moraelin · 2003-10-14 18:39 · Score: 1

You seem to make a small confusion between "programmer", "tech support" and "marketroid". My job is to get that big corporate enterprise system to run. Not only that, but to run fast and reliable. (When you're doing business over that system, you don't want something which randomly crashes or losing data after a supplier clicked "OK".)

I.e., I'm there to solve a _technical_ problem, as part of a _team_. The parts I write must perfectly match the parts my coleagues write. If we didn't use very clear CS terms to define a problem, communication and coordination within the team would be impossible.

If I started using bogus non-scientific phrases like "uh, little internet-like pieces of data", another member of the team wouldn't know exactly what that means. Does that mean UDP datagrams? Or the IP packets as such? Or does "internet-like" mean they're embedded in HTML tags? Maybe SOAP? Or what?

See the problem yet?

You are right about another aspect, though. I do know very well that the current trend is to hire some clowns in a suit that are supposed to function interchangeably for either programming, or having dinners with the customer to sell snake oil.

The problem with that is that those skills are completely unrelated, and _extremely_ few people are actually any good at both. And those who are, are unlikely to be hired for a low wage.

I.e., what really happens, is that said boss hires someone who's _only_ a snake oil peddler. Good at marketing himself, but crap at writing code, and without any clue or experience about algorithms or security.

They'll write piss-poor code, riddled with bugs and major security holes. And then fall back to their marketing skill to basically sell an excuse to the boss. The project will drag for years, and cost someone many millions, before finally being scrapped.

I've seen enough of those already.

--
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.

A call for treachery. by lysium · 2003-10-13 10:02 · Score: 1

It is getting to the point where these clue-less management types are just getting in the way of progress. With all the brainpower of the average slashdot reader (you in the back -- quiet!), someone must know some sure-fire methods of getting people fired. Especially fools with half the intelligence. Manipulating emails, erasing data under their login -- small potatoes, I know, but what does the ambitious geek do to get ahead in this businessperson's world?

I mean, we can all wait 10-20 years for these people to die and/or retire, but I would much prefer removing people, one by one, until we are Manager, by default. Anyone with me out there?

==============

--
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.

Re:A call for treachery. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:12 · Score: 0

LOL!

I have to agree with the post 2 up though ..... its horses for courses. Leave the tech to the techies and let the bosses do what they are good at , wearing suits and bullshitting.

Problem is there are still too many bosses per techie and they earn disproportionately too much money. Bullshitting is an overrated skill.
Re:A call for treachery. by Aldric · 2003-10-13 10:38 · Score: 1

"Bullshitting is an overrated skill." No no no. Fewer programmers would be employed if the manager and the sales people weren't good at it. ;)

BOFH by wowbagger · 2003-10-13 10:02 · Score: 3, Funny

Am I the only one who sees Simon's fine hand in this matter?

BOFH fodder, indeed....

--
www.eFax.com are spammers

Re:BOFH by Valdrax · 2003-10-13 10:26 · Score: 1

Yeah. I can see his hand clutched around the tape eraser that he just used to knock-out the trainer. Having people who could see through his BS is not a good thing for his long-term employment. In fact, I kind of hope that Simon gets around to writing on the subject.

--
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Re:BOFH by wowbagger · 2003-10-13 23:34 · Score: 1
Sure, the original trainer will NOT be teaching the class.

But you fail to think like a true BOFH - consider the possibities!
1. Blackmail of the PHBs involved
2. Identification of lucrative side contracts for "support" after the PHB put what you've taught them into practice
3. Identification of potential threats - in today's work-mobile society you never know when one of these Llusers (they deserve 2 'l's, like a llama) will be applying for work
4. Two words: Stock manipulation
And that's just a first pass while the coffee kicks in.

This is a BOFH's DREAM!
--
www.eFax.com are spammers

Interesting theory by mrscott · 2003-10-13 10:03 · Score: 1

Yeah and look where it got them! Idiots. Now, instead of being a line worker, they're in charge! Oh... wait...

Secret is stupid by Technically+Inept · 2003-10-13 10:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

Shame at your own ignorance is the very thing that keeps illiterate people from getting help reading and guys from asking for directions. A smart company makes the education process completely transparent, which results in a greater willingness to attempt self-improvement.

Consider GE, which instituted an internet mentoring program (Word doc) for its top executives, including former CEO Jack Welch.

What GE did need, however, was a system to train its top management in the wonders of the Internet. It didn't do much good to preach the values of e-business if the people making the big decisions in the corporation didn't know how to use the tool.
To alter the situation, GE started a mentoring program for nearly 1,000 senior executives. Younger members of the GE staff, proficient in the ways of the new electronic world, were assigned to teach a senior executive how to use the Internet.

You don't need a computer expert to teach computer basics, and the upside is that the lower level employees get executive mentorship, and the executive employees learn these tools while keeping connected to employees down the ladder. This, to me, is a much more sensible approach than seclusion, shame, and secrecy.

--
Now watch me hit this drive.

Re:Secret is stupid by swordgeek · 2003-10-13 10:31 · Score: 2, Informative

As a GE employee, I can comment on this.

The mentoring program worked. The execs learned stuff, got their green or black belt certifications, and got a raise. The underlings as usual got FUCK ALL for their efforts.

GE is a model company in many ways, but treatment of their employees is absolutely NOT one of them.

--

"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Re:Secret is stupid by vjmurphy · 2003-10-13 14:26 · Score: 1

Wow, I wish I could get paid 6 figures to get training on basic computer and Internet use.

--
Vincent J. Murphy
Spandex Justice
Re:Secret is stupid by SamBeckett · 2003-10-13 17:56 · Score: 1

Six sigma (I assume thats what you mean by green/black betl certs) is only a "tool" to allow the top level pay themselves more.

It's really quite funny to see someone come up with an idea that will save $1,000,000 a month by shutting the lights off at 11 am. (and then have it implemented) ((and then have them say fuck this bullshit after two days)) (((HAHAHAHAH OMFG)))

From what I understand-- Six sigma should ONLY be used in manufacturing where there are actual tolerances and "six sigma" means something more than fucking management bonuses
Re:Secret is stupid by Flingles · 2003-10-13 19:50 · Score: 1

"Shame at your own ignorance is the very thing that keeps illiterate people from getting help "

Namely you? :) jk

--
Karma: -2^0.5 . Mainly due to the imbibing of dihydrogen monoxide
Re:Secret is stupid by DataCannibal · 2003-10-13 20:29 · Score: 1

Shame at your own ignorance is the very thing that keeps illiterate people from getting help reading and guys from asking for directions

Just hold on a minute there! Guys do ask for directions, it's just that they don't do it when there are women in the car and they never ask women for directions. Therefore women have perpetrated the myth of the non-direction asking male because of this.

--
No but, yeah but, no but...

Don't try this at home! by lww · 2003-10-13 10:04 · Score: 1

"Yes dear? Why is there lipstick on my underwear? Well you see, I've been out getting secret training..." *THWACK* *SNIP*

Mission Breifing by DumbWhiteGuy777 · 2003-10-13 10:04 · Score: 2, Funny

"Okay boys, listen up. This is our new secret weapon. It's called Windows 2004. Anyone gives you lip, just install it on their computer, and watch the sparks fly"

and how idiots can be perfectly proficient by garrulous · 2003-10-13 10:04 · Score: 1

It's a valuble thing to note. Computers are not as intuitive as we'd like to believe.

That's a lot of power... by phraktyl · 2003-10-13 10:04 · Score: 1

This seems to be giving a lot of power to the instructors and companies giving the training. Imagine a scenario where the PHB of a critical web server cluster were to go to IT training, "Sponsored by Microsoft."

Now that the PHB has had his secret training, he thinks he knows how everything works, and tries to start a mass migration because of what was fed to him during his training.

This is slightly scary...

--
Karma: Marginal (mostly due to the border around the website)

Great idea! I'm available. by torpor · 2003-10-13 10:06 · Score: 1

If there are any PHB's who want special training or briefing on anything related to computer science, I am able to offer my services for a very reasonable fee.

Personally, I think this is a good story. I'm all for people getting to know more about things which traditionally have been mysterious.

--
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --

Cultural Problems by amplt1337 · 2003-10-13 10:07 · Score: 1

See, this is an example of one major problem with our corporate culture -- bosses can't ask their own staff for help because they're afraid of showing weakness?

What, did they hire a pack of wolves?

We have to start accepting that 1. it's ok to make mistakes and 2. being all-powerful is overrated. How much nicer would the world be if executives could learn *those* lessons... (and also how to use excel.)

--
Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.

Re:Cultural Problems by Laplace · 2003-10-13 10:27 · Score: 1

Ok, but I once worked at a place where the IT guy would help the boss, then would come down to the trenches and make fun of the boss's ineptitude.

--
The middle mind speaks!

Arrogance by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:07 · Score: 0

Most PHBs dont give a rats ass about technology or how many foobleflops your new video card can pull off.

Most people just don't give a shit, it's completely irrelevant to them.

Just like you all wouldn't know anything about getting laid or being invited to a party.

Face it, people! Comfuters ARE ubiquitous now days by Thud457 · 2003-10-13 10:08 · Score: 1

I don't see people boasting about having indoor plumbing or taking classes to be "electrically literate". Hey old fossils -- get up to speed already!

Sheesh, they probably have to hire someone to drive them around town, too!

--

the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

OMFG? by greymond · 2003-10-13 10:08 · Score: 1

Some fat bitch gets paid $50 an hour to tech my boss how to point and click his mouse and check his email?! How do I get a job like that?!

--
Ave Molech Setting

Re:OMFG? by Ohreally_factor · 2003-10-13 10:12 · Score: 1

To start with, you might shower, get a haircut, and do something about that attitude.

--
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.

PHB Contest... by ivanmarsh · 2003-10-13 10:09 · Score: 1

What's the most unreasonable thing your past or current PHB has made you do?

My personal best:

Called me every weekend he worked because his printer wasn't working.

I would have to drive into work to press his ON-LINE button.

Every time I tried to "teach" him how to do this: "I don't have time to look at status lights"

so that's why this company is so fsck'd... by Quickening · 2003-10-13 10:10 · Score: 1

My largish company has a tradition of important IT architectural decisions being made contrary to the advice of all the internal technical experts. I have often wondered how these non-technical managers could justify repeatedly making the worst possible technical decisions. This article is one such possibility but I suspect that more likely venal and ulterior motives are involved. I imagine my CIO thinking she's "in the know" when she gets "personal" emails from Bill telling her how bad linux is. Oh, that, and all the kickbacks and bribes...

--
tcboo

"...learning how to open attachments..." by John+Hasler · 2003-10-13 10:12 · Score: 1

Don't PHBs instinctively click on all attachments?

--
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.

Re:"...learning how to open attachments..." by cant_get_a_good_nick · 2003-10-13 13:15 · Score: 1

I'm kind of pissed at the "heh, he's a moron, he opens attachments" garbage. Aren't we supposed to open attachments? Aren't attachments designed to be used? How many times have you had to warn Linux users "don't click on attachments". Or even Mac users (pre or post Mac OS X). Attachments by themselves aren't all that evil. Holes in both the design and implementation of Outlook/Outlook Express have made it where using a very useful feature of email scares the crap out of you because you're worried about catching something. Thanks to the fact that Windows is on 95% of desktops, flaws in Windows are seen to be flaws in all computers, so people just accept it, and ridicule those who dare think they might be able to use a feature of email for it's intended purose.

Sometimes it works in reverse by Selecter · 2003-10-13 10:13 · Score: 0

I work as a bench tech for a manufacturer of computers for mobile applications. The big boss ( A.K.A. Owner ) is a mechanical engineer by trade who got lucky years ago with a contract and has fooled around ever since with his company, sometimes making a profit but most of the time losing money.

I met a person outside the company at a hamfest who had done some consulting work for the big boss and told me a nifty quote that the boss had told him. The quote was: " Anybody I employ either doesnt have the credentals or the skill to get the better job, so I dont listen to anything they say". I shrugged it off as hearsay.

We were having a process problem with our automated soldering machine turing out cold joints, chips with the legs not soldered, etc. The boss was informed of this and instead of listening to the poeple he pays good money to he brought in outside consultants to make recommendations. So knowing what the guy told me, I knew what he had said was true. This really was what the Owner thought of his employees, and I guess what he still thinks of them.

So basic attitude towards the poeple you hire counts for a lot in my book, even more than knowledge. Poeple will work their ass off for a company that treats them fair and square.....but most business owners are more like my example I fear.

Re:Sometimes it works in reverse by JUSTONEMORELATTE · 2003-10-13 10:27 · Score: 1

I work as a bench tech for a manufacturer of computers for mobile applications.
(snip)
[my boss is quoted as saying] "Anybody I employ either doesnt have the credentals or the skill to get the better job, so I dont listen to anything they say"
(snip)
I [know that the person quoting my boss told the truth]. This really was what the Owner thought of his employees
(snip)

So to summarize, you work at a place.
You learn that your boss thinks you're a moron for working there in the first place.
Your boss proves to you that he really believes this.
And you still work there

--
Re:Sometimes it works in reverse by t0ny · 2003-10-13 11:11 · Score: 1

Im sure it pays much better than unemployment.
Work is ok, as long as you dont take it too seriously. The older I get, the more I realize that caring about your job is an attitude problem.

--
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
Re:Sometimes it works in reverse by tigersha · 2003-10-13 18:16 · Score: 1

> People will work their ass off for a company that
> treats them fair and square....

Any they will respect a boss who simply admits his failings much more and help then than when he walk in and throws around big words to try to impress simply to boost is own ego. Quite honestly, having a problem with computers is not really the end of the world. I have enough problems to change the boil in my car. The difference between me and my boss is that I am willing to admit it.

Any they will send a boss who bullshits all the time to hell ASAP.

--
The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
Re:Sometimes it works in reverse by Uggy · 2003-10-14 01:23 · Score: 1

I agree whole-heartly. I was a company commander of an reserve Army unit that was mobilized recently. I always ask my soldiers about their jobs (basic stuff that I don't know) and it does two things:

1) They see I am interested in what they do
2) I get to see how hard their jobs really are

If you are managing computer programmers/sys admins and they don't get to SEE you appreciate them and their hard work and show them you are interested in how they perform, then you're in for a world of hurt. If it's all about ego and losing face then you are not a good manager. Except in Lord of the Flies, that's just not as big a deal as people think it is. Even in the military, we're learning that "never admitting wrongTM" is NOT a force multiplier.

As an aside, from what I have seen, women managers and officers don't have these ego problem as frequently when dealing with subordinates. I've observed that they are more likely to just say, "show me." The soldier will show them, and then she will know how to do it. Next time it needs to be done, she can appreciate how tough it is, and how competent her people are. She'll be so impressed, in fact, that she'll move heaven and earth to keep distractions/bureaucracy/morons from impeding her soldier's progress. This should be tatooed on the heads of all PHB's.

--
Toddlers are the stormtroopers of the Lord of Entropy.

slashdotters are equally clueless by puzzled · 2003-10-13 10:14 · Score: 3, Flamebait

I find it funny that a group that collectively has trouble with personal hygiene, getting a date, ever getting a second date, finding something to talk about besides computers, etc is down on high level executives.

So they don't know computer applications. They know finance, marketing, operations, negotiating, and a host of other things that mostly don't have anything to do with computers, but do have a lot to do with ongoing success.

One of the happiest, best paying environments I ever worked in had me reporting to a division controller responsible for operations accounting related to stores doing $200M in sales annually. She was almost helpless on all sorts of things computer related, but she could sign purchase orders faster than I could type and when HQ IS weenies got under foot her head would spin around, she'd spit nails, etc, etc, and they'd go back to guarding their silly little mainframe, while our mighty intranet continued to win the hearts & minds of the people in the field.

Instead of poking fun at them, maybe you should study them - they *are* the ones with the money/power/cars with power windows that work - you might just learn something.

--
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo

Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by wud · 2003-10-13 10:28 · Score: 1

windows that work??? must not be made by microsoft

--
wud
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by puzzled · 2003-10-13 10:33 · Score: 1

Am I the only one who has noticed the number of Linux fanboys at the local LUG who appear to be either completely absent minded OR have cars with power windows that are perpetually jammed in the 2" short of closed position?

It doesn't have a 101 key keyboard, you can't reboot it to clear problems, so therefor the magic electric car windows remain in the position where they stop functioning, no matter how silly and uncomfortable it makes the car owner.

--
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by nyet · 2003-10-13 10:47 · Score: 1

You're just jealous that I get paid more than you, I am smarter than you, I drive a better car than you, AND I am nailing your girlfriend who is about to dump you.

Not only that, but you also envy the fact that I smell nice and write a better troll.

"but she could sign purchase orders faster than I could type"

You overplayed your hand right there, son.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Magus311X · 2003-10-13 10:47 · Score: 1

...cars with power windows that work...

Still to trade up to a 1986 Toyota Camry, eh?

-----
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Brandybuck · 2003-10-13 10:54 · Score: 1

So they don't know computer applications. They know finance, marketing, operations, negotiating, and a host of other things that mostly don't have anything to do with computers, but do have a lot to do with ongoing success.

I could care less that they don't know computers. What pisses me off is that they THINK they know computers. They're always specifying acronymic technologies completely irrelevent to the task at hand.

It used to be you had to start out in "the mail room" in business and work your way up. But now it's expected that newly graduated Harvard MBAs be moved immediately into executive positions.

--
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Knights+who+say+'INT · 2003-10-13 11:02 · Score: 0

Now, really. Are you surprised that slashdotters are celebrating geek attitudes, geek lifestyles, geeky abilities and geek humour? Ever noticed the Linux articles jumping around everyday?

Moreover, are you really suggesting that having money and sexy cars is _the_ objective of life, not to mention the one sign that you're a superior being who doesn't have to bother learning basic survival skills in a modern society? They could also not learn how to drive.

Then again, there's a world of difference between not knowing how to install a hardware driver and not knowing how to check your email. I tend to be more sympathetic to the afraid-of-linux crowd than most slashdotters because compiling your kernel or changing your intittab or config files is beyond intuitive, and even a bit risky to the functioning of a computer system you actually need to use (and not just tweak around endlessly).

But not being able to sort out through the colorful, icon-laden app menus in Windows, finding an email client and clicking "Send/receive" is nothing short of a serious shortage of intuition that could and prolly is affecting their work in many other areas.

Contemporary finance is tricky business, involving advanced probability theory and partial differential equations. I don't expect anyone who can't fire up a computer and figure out how to use a maths package like Maple on their own to even be able to cut the drill and know what they're doing.

Of course, it's easier for superior management to 1) bluff and 2) prey on interns and techie's actual work output and present it as their own.

Now, mod the parent down. It's just a flamebait.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by iantri · 2003-10-13 11:06 · Score: 1

Well you're clearly much better than the rest of us. If you think so poorly of us, why the hell are you here?
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by angryelephant · 2003-10-13 11:17 · Score: 1

that hits sort of close to home as my driver side window doesn't roll up.

on the other hand it took me 5 minutes of googling to find out how to fix it.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Dirtside · 2003-10-13 11:20 · Score: 1

We resent them because they have the money, power, and cars despite their inability to create anything more interesting than a business deal.

--
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by RyuuzakiTetsuya · 2003-10-13 11:49 · Score: 1

see, I drive a 1989 jeep cherokee limited with a broken passenger side(Right, for you non-LHDers) window.

Now, this poor jeep was so abused before I got it, this was the least of my worries. Now it's up and running, but I'm afraid to fix it because I'm going to short something out. Besides, those two inches usually mean that air's flowing in and out of the car.

--
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by JebuZ · 2003-10-13 11:49 · Score: 1

Why is it that people always generalize about geeks? Just because you can't get a date, have a body odour problem, and finding someone to talk about, it doesn't mean the rest of us. Personally, I am very happy with the woman I am with, who just happens to also be the hottest woman I've ever seen (Not in that "Yes, you're beautiful, honey" kind of way, but the "Holy shit, she's hot! I'm going to get her number if it kills me!" kind of way.) Maybe if you took a shower now and then, you wouldn't have such a problem.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by painehope · 2003-10-13 11:58 · Score: 1

I agree w/ you on most of those points, but there are a lot of exceptions to the rule. A few people I know of, in an organization that shall remain nameless ( not that I work there or anything ), make up a special subset of the clueless group :

the ones who think they know what they are talking about

and won't listen to a single fscking word anyone else says. I'm not worried about the guys who admit to what they do and don't know. I'm nice to those people. It's their job to know what PO's to sign and when to hire more personnel. It's mine to take down $6M in gear and then bring it back up when we lose AC at 3am in the morning and the gear is about to fry. Or to benchmark new gear, design a system, whatever the job calls for.

What pisses me off are those people who get in management, will stay in management the rest of their lives, don't have a clue what they are managing, and won't listen to the resources they have that do. Those are the people that also tend to fuck people or the company over, and are the reason why a lot of techies don't have power windows on their vehicles : because we lost our jobs, raises, bonuses, whatever, due to their idiotic mismanagement.

Now for the bathing, date, etc. thing, you got me. I don't know anyone like that, in person at least. Most geeks I know have good hygiene, work out, at least try to date or are in a relationship, do social stuff, etc.

--
PC moderators can suck my White pierced, tattooed dick. If you think pride == hate, s/dick/Aryan meat mallet/g.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 12:18 · Score: 0

I find it funny that a group that collectively has trouble with personal hygiene, getting a date, ever getting a second date, finding something to talk about besides computers, etc is down on high level executives.

Yeah! All you ugly, smelly, closed-minded creeps should learn to respect others!
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by somneo · 2003-10-13 12:26 · Score: 1

I find that hillarious because the power windows on my bimmer broke about a year ago and I am just now soldering on switches because I'm too cheap (read: broke) to buy replacements from the dealer.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by RESPAWN · 2003-10-13 12:39 · Score: 1

I've never really had a condescending attitude towards my users. Ok, so once or twice I get a user so ignorant, and who doesn't even want to make the effort to help themselves that I do maybe act a little condescending to them, but those users and situations are few and far between. I'm just a nice guy and find it very, very hard to be mean to anybody... which is part of the reason my users love to come to me when they need stuff done.

Anyway, back on topic... I always had respect for all the managers in the company, but it wasn't until one day that I really had it all put into perspective for me. One of the managers was talking about how nice I was and how she loved having me around because I never developed a condescending attitude. She then went on to talk about the typical prima-donna IT guys. She then said, "For instance, you couldn't do a [insert some task that I've never heard of and can't remember]." I just kind of stared blankly for a moment and said "Huh?" It was at that moment that she had in effect initiated the BOFH's infamous dumme mode on me. I simply stated that I had no idea what she even said, but that was what made everything so great. I did what I liked and knew how to do and so did she, and because we both liked and respected each other and did our respective tasks, the company made money. Or rather, her department made money for the company while my department made sure they could do it, but that's just nitpicking.

Suffice it to say, that just because we know gobs of technical stuff our users don't, that doesn't necessarily make them any less intelligent than we are. I could no sooner do the jobs of most of my users than they could do mine.

--
If Murphy's Law can go wrong, it will.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 12:54 · Score: 0

Wow, how many trolling threads like these are we going to have in this story alone?
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 14:38 · Score: 0

I generally like your post...but what is the BIG FREAKING DEAL ABOUT DATING???? SO FREAKING WHAT if a geek (or anyone for that matter) isn't dating. Does EVERYONE have to follow the same droll, overdone social script?
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by forkboy · 2003-10-13 14:42 · Score: 1

I think the vitriol that most /. ers have against execs is not that they don't know much about technology, but that the ones that make the major decisions regarding technology SHOULD know what the hell they are talking about, but often don't.

You certainly wouldn't put a network engineer in charge of making major financial or strategic business decisions. By the same token, you're just as foolish if you put a Harvard MBA in charge of network infrastructure decisions.

A good executive doesn't need to know everything there is about current technology, but he definately needs to know enough to understand a) when to listen to his IT department and implement the changes they recommend and b) know when his IT people are full of shit. There is no way you can tell what an IT person or programmer needs and doesn't need if you can't understand what he just said.

--
This message brought to you by the Council of People Who Are Sick of Seeing More People.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Grizzlysmit · 2003-10-13 15:36 · Score: 1
I find it funny that a group that collectively has trouble with personal hygiene, getting a date, ever getting a second date, finding something to talk about besides computers, etc is down on high level executives.
Right now you know all this because
1. You know us all personally.
2. You have met most of us.
3. You did a Scientific study.
4. Your an Idiot who jumps to doubtful conclusions based on stereotypes.
Yep surprise, surprise it's 4, who'd guessed that.
--
in my life God comes first.... but Linux is pretty high after that :-D
Francis Smit
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · 2003-10-13 16:25 · Score: 1

Very true. I had a boss who was like that. The thing that bothers me about this boss and people like him was not only did he THINK he knew about comptuers and actually not, but he tried to act like he knew what the hell he was talking about simply because he was my boss, therefore he must speak accordingly.

I wouldn't start with the condescending, over-the-head, literal tech talk until he walked up to my office and spewing crap he piece-parted together from his daily ZDNet parusal, like "I think we should implement this with XSLT over UDP/IP on a .NET runtime solution".
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Second+Vampyre · 2003-10-13 17:38 · Score: 0

Your girlfriend is a slut. Why don't you look for someone with some class? Not some whore throwing her body around the internet like a two-day old piece of veil meat.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Second+Vampyre · 2003-10-13 17:42 · Score: 0

I think your signature summarizes pretty effectively why you will never have a date.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 18:29 · Score: 0

And then, of course there are those of us with girlfriends, getting laid regularly and owning cars with power windows that work. Oh, and we know what an IP address is. Their heads don't 'fill up' with all their financial accumen. If anything, just tell us we should be learning more (and in most cases we are or would want to), not to back off because other people dont want to.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 20:44 · Score: 0

You actually take the "personal hygiene" stereotype/joke seriously?

As for getting dates, from personal experience I can say that as a geek, I have problems getting dates - mostly because in most situations, I'd feel that I was being overly pushy and rude to "talk up" people - but when I do go on them, I make a positive impression (because I'm mature, considerate, intelligent and even fairly nice looking), and so far, when there hasn't been a second (and third etc.) date, it's been because we both felt we're incompatible.

Currently I'm in a relationship that sadly doesn't look like it's going to last much longer...she's crazy about me but apparently incapable of treating me nicely even if she wants to, and I'm getting very tired.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 21:40 · Score: 0

I really really need stop trying overclock my windows...
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Moraelin · 2003-10-13 23:25 · Score: 1

is down on high level executives.
No, just on those with egos bigger than Africa. The kind who can't possibly ever admit that they don't know something.
Basically:
Correct way: You want to learn something? Fine, come ask. (And I mean, ask like a normal human being, not like an infatuated "I'm the boss, and I have no time for whatever unimportant crap you unwashed monkeys are doing there" baboon.)
E.g., you want to learn about how we use (or don't use) XML in the application? Fine, then come and say, "hi, could you clear a few things up for me? For example, what is XML and why do you use it here?" It's honest, straightforward, and not demeaning to any of the two people involved in the conversation. And you can bet that I'll do my best to explain.
Wrong way: Waltz in and start throwing around big words that you obviously don't even understand, trying to look smart. In practice, it will only make you look like a clown. E.g., "Why don't you use an XSLT database? Change the design immediately to use an XSLT database." (Because there is no such thing, and can't possibly be. XML is the standard for data, XSLT is a language that processes XML.) "And the man from IBM said we should use IBM MQ Series. Change the design immediately. I have already assured our clients that we'll send the HTTP text to the browser over MQ Series." (Wrong. All browsers work over HTTP, not over MQ. A browser couldn't even connect to an MQ server, nor know what to do with the data. And, oh, you probably mean HTML text. HTTP is the protocol.) "Oh yeah, and we'll change the database from Oracle to Visual Fox Pro, 'cause it's more visual, and will reduce development time. We'll just put the database file on the file server, instead of having this expensive dabase server you requested." (Wrong. VFP is a single user database. It can't be used like that.)
If you ever act like that, _expect_ me to think you're a clown.
Wrong way: Acting like you're the master and I'm the slave, and I should obviously kiss your ass. In practice, I don't give a rat's ass if you have a bigger car or more money or whatnot. If you can't have a normal human conversation, than for all I care, you're the one lacking basic social skills, not I.
E.g., I actually meet a PHB from a customer who repeated about 4 times per hour, "The golden rule is: who has the gold makes the rules. And I have the gold." I initially thought he was the owner of the company or something. It turned out he was a sad clown of small PHB, probably worse paid than I was. They fired him about half a year later, after he drove all his programmers and most designers to quit en masse.

--
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-14 03:05 · Score: 0

She was almost helpless on all sorts of things computer related, but she could sign purchase orders faster than I could type and when HQ IS weenies got under foot her head would spin around, she'd spit nails, etc, etc, and they'd go back to guarding their silly little mainframe, while our mighty intranet continued to win the hearts & minds of the people in the field. This is what a good manager is SUPPOSED to do. Get the crap out of the way so his/her team can do their damn jobs. This is an insightfull comment.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-15 05:28 · Score: 0

Flamebait? Whatever...
anyhoo, excellent point.
Re:slashdotters are equally clueless by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-16 00:58 · Score: 0

Jesus Christ, who talks about his girlfriend like that? Fucking pig.

Absolutely by mrscott · 2003-10-13 10:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

I completely agree that people skills can set people apart. I just find a lot of techs pretty arrogant and condescending and it doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence in the people in the field. I don't mind that they don't have people skills -- everyone has limitations -- but the arrogance can be controlled.

Re:Absolutely by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:24 · Score: 0

Well, look, I already told you. I deal with the goddamn customers so
the engineers don't have to!! I have people skills!! I am good at
dealing with people!!! Can't you understand that?!? WHAT THE HELL IS
WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!!!!!!!

I am one of those guys by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:15 · Score: 0

I *am* one of those PHB trainers. In this case the PHB is a self-made multimillionaire from the midwest who runs an international construction firm.

The plus side is that I get to live in a small town on the west coast with my family. He flies me out when he frequently needs my help.

He has trouble installing apps like Act or Wordperfect, not to mention keeping current backups.

Right now he is spending mucho bucks having a data recovery firm try to do what I had him doing a few months ago but apparently he fell off the wagon in the meantime -- making unattended external usb 2.0 drive backups.

And yeah, he likes me living two thousand miles away because no one around him has to know of his absolute fear of technology offset by his need to brag about his technological competence.

The only downside for me I suppose is that he attributes a lots of the bad things that happen to him in the computer world to unknown magical or malicious forces. Sometimes he suspects me of causing the trouble in the first place. Reality brings him around in a few weeks.

n/s by U+R+TEH+SUX · 2003-10-13 10:15 · Score: 0

n/m

Why am i being redirected to msid.msn.com ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:19 · Score: 0

when i click that msnbc i got this url (blocked by my hosts file)

http://msid.msn.com/mps_id_sharing/redirect.asp? ww w.msnbc.com/news/create_p1.asp?URL=www.msnbc.com/n ews/978871.asp&0dm=C12LT

cheeky fuckers

Re:Why am i being redirected to msid.msn.com ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 11:24 · Score: 0

Read and learn - it's pretty evil, actually.

Don't take their word for it. Searching for msn msid cookie or any similar terms will turn up plenty of pages which explain it as well.

PHB = Players Hand Book? by Athrawn17 · 2003-10-13 10:19 · Score: 1

As soon as I saw PHB's I thought to myself... self, why would a Dungeons and Dragons Source book need computer training?

Re:PHB = Players Hand Book? by WWWWolf · 2003-10-13 19:55 · Score: 1

Ah, it's quite easy, really: There's PHB and then there's the other PHB - the one that they'll probably put in MM3. You know, al LE and Int 3.

need to inject this somewhere. . . by hellraizr · 2003-10-13 10:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

ok, now I *understand* some people might still live in a cave and think programming the VCR is black magick, but here's my thoughts on this.

having worked under DIRECTORS OF IT that fit this profile, it leads me to ask the question. . . In a typical business model, shouldn't the boss not only know his employee's jobs, but be able to do them in most cases!? or atleast be savvy enough (i.e., we run Netware, yeah Netware XP) to hire a contractor. I'm not even going into the mcse stuff either (1 pci NIC + 1 driver disk + 1 NT box == particle engineering).

I personally take the stance that your superiors should alteast know how to operate they're own system and be computer literate enough to atleast receive a company-wide memo. we can't keep sheltering people like this. in the end it will end up, those of us who can. and the others that can't that will serve us. oh and those who can purchase those who can so they can too. IMHO.

Re:need to inject this somewhere. . . by cant_get_a_good_nick · 2003-10-13 13:09 · Score: 1

In a typical business model, shouldn't the boss not only know his employee's jobs, but be able to do them in most cases!?

Actually, there's a school of thought that says this is actually a pretty bad thing, because there's too much incentive for them to actually try to.

A manager's job is not doing as much as coordinating. You have to get out of the though process of being a resource and start getting in to the role of utilizing resources most efficiently. The most efficient use of your time is to multiply your effort by making the most efficient use of your resources, the people who work for you. An effective manager can't think of himself as a smarter frontline guy, he has to think of himself as someone who gets all the smart frontline guys working for him. Think of the manager as the conductor of a symphony. He doesn't need to play the bassoon, needs to be able to get the best out of the bassoon player.

That being said, it's always good to have a backup, and the manager is allowed to be a very short term backup. If he's becoming a long-term backup, there's a problem, and he needs to fix it.

What if your manager is too smart, or at least thinks he is? They tend to micro-manage. Worst case, they think they're smart but they're not, so they micromanage, much up you getting your stuff done, and don't get their stuff done, so the whol eteam has to pitchin on his work or he overworks and gets cranky and takes it out on the team. None are good situations.
Re:need to inject this somewhere. . . by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 13:23 · Score: 0

Not really. Because at the end of the day, I have yet to see the average 20-something IT guy produce a reasonable budget, negotiate a decent contract or statement of work, or coordinate 3 different groups of technical workers in 2 different locations.

My boss probably was hot IT shit 15-20 years ago with VMS and PDP-11 system programming. And I'm confident that he usually has a common sense idea of how much work, the right people, and right amount of time to get a job done. I'd just never ask him to dig down into the job himself.

Believe me, a pure IT background isn't going to get you into the high end corporate structure anytime soon. Even if there are a few (and it would be a very few, based on personal experience) that might do well at it, the dot-commandos of 3 years ago burned enough bridges that the people with the REAL money aren't going to trust them with the keys to daddy's car again any time soon.
Re:need to inject this somewhere. . . by veg_all · 2003-10-13 14:14 · Score: 1

In a typical business model, shouldn't the boss not only know his employee's jobs, but be able to do them in most cases!?

Um, no.

If she did, why would she need you?

--
grammar-lesson free since 1999. (rescinded - 2005)
Re:need to inject this somewhere. . . by Rob+Simpson · 2003-10-13 18:46 · Score: 1

Well, in the case of a pharmacy manager (who does need to be able to do this), it would be because she doesn't want to spend 70+ hours a week doing the work of at least two or three people.
Re:need to inject this somewhere. . . by albanac · 2003-10-13 22:46 · Score: 1

In a typical business model, shouldn't the boss not only know his employee's jobs, but be able to do them in most cases!?

Absolutely not, in most cases. What a boss/manager should know how to do is his job; managing. Working with people, working with numbers, strategic planning, preventing shit from landing on the guys doing the job, channeling the ass-kicking upwards towards the people who need it from the people who know. Why hire an expert if the boss already knows? If the only reason they're boss is because they've been here longest, then they have probably [1] been promoted beyond their level of competence.
~cHris
[1] Probably. In some cases people who do actual work make great managers. In many cases they do not. Different aptitudes and temperaments.

Reminds me.... by MojoRilla · 2003-10-13 10:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

When I was fresh out of college in 1991, I interviewed at Anderson Consulting (now Accenture, I believe). They showed me the typing room where all the secretaries were typing things. I thought it was a little primative.

When I talked to the partner, I asked where his computer was. He said that he had one sent up if he needed to do a presentation or something.

I could tell he just didn't get it.

Needless to say, I didn't get the job.

Mod him up, if you have any decency. by titzandkunt · 2003-10-13 10:22 · Score: 2, Funny

A tech support dude who can't type "acronym phb" into Google...

O that I lived to see such evil days!

T&K.

--
Political language ... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable...

Wilfully ignorant bosses deserve scorn... by Goonie · 2003-10-13 10:23 · Score: 1

Imagine if the owner of a pro football team not only didn't know a thing about football, but refused to listen to the coach and players about football matters (which they are paid a lot of money to be experts in), and insisted on calling the plays himself and made the calls based on what he'd heard his son's coach yell out out on the sidelines of his junior league game.

If such a thing were tried in the NFL, people would fall over themselves laughing. But it is precisely the situation many IT staff find themselves in.

To be honest, though, I don't think that executives that know absolutely nothing are that common any more. More likely is the executive that has the latest laptop that gets used for playing solitaire, and browsing forbes.com and zdnet.com, and imposes an immediate upgrade to Office 2003 because the advertisements are pretty and Information Rights Management sounds so cool!

--

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)

Re:Wilfully ignorant bosses deserve scorn... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:53 · Score: 0

Imagine if the owner of a pro football team not only didn't know a thing about football, but refused to listen to the coach and players about football matters (which they are paid a lot of money to be experts in), and insisted on calling the plays himself and made the calls based on what he'd heard his son's coach yell out out on the sidelines of his junior league game.

Imagine? Except for the "calling the plays" part, you've just described the Cincinntati Bengals.
Re:Wilfully ignorant bosses deserve scorn... by sirsex · 2003-10-13 12:25 · Score: 1

two words.

Jerry Jones

for the rest, he's the couch of the Dallas Cowboys. Has managed to run of three of the best coaches, currently working on the fourth
Re:Wilfully ignorant bosses deserve scorn... by LittleGuy · 2003-10-14 07:35 · Score: 1

Imagine if the owner of a pro football team not only didn't know a thing about football, but refused to listen to the coach and players about football matters (which they are paid a lot of money to be experts in), and insisted on calling the plays himself and made the calls based on what he'd heard his son's coach yell out out on the sidelines of his junior league game.

According to AmIAnnoying.Com, Brannon Braga fits this scenario:

He does not particularly like Star Trek or science fiction in general.

He only got the Trek job because he applied for an internship in college.

His scripts are noted for their plot holes and dubious science.

He is dismissive of Trek fans.

He has held on to his Trek job by pushing out other writers and producers.

The key is that he has the support of the higher ups.

Moral is that there ARE willfully ignorant bosses who can and will continue to putter along according to their pecking order in the Peter Principle.

--
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.

wow. as if THAT wasn;t asking for it by MntlChaos · 2003-10-13 10:25 · Score: 1

now how many replies did this get? you'd need 3 mods spending points to properly mark the redundant posts!

sampling of answers: "Pointy haired boss, Dilbert reference"

"PHB = Pointy-haired boss. A reference to Dilbert"

"It's a Pointy Haired Boss ;^)"

"Pointy Haired Boss

It's a Reference to the Boss in the Dilbert Comic Strip"

"Google hit # 2 for PHB: Pointy-Haired Boss"

Guys. if you are going to post to a post that is bound to get so many replies, please don't do it with a +1 modifier.

Re:wow. as if THAT wasn;t asking for it by ceejayoz · 2003-10-13 10:59 · Score: 1

I'm half tempted to create an account named "PHB Troll" and see how many answers I get everytime I post that question somewhere... heh.

It's called "coaching"... by swb · 2003-10-13 10:26 · Score: 3, Informative

...and is more common than you think in management.

My boss told me that when he took his first CIO job (moving from an operations management job) that not only did his boss encourage and pay for an IT "coach" to give him a crash course in IT, he said it was pretty common for execs to use "coaches" for all kinds of things, including a fair amount of touchy-feely management subjects.

Re:It's called "coaching"... by AppyPappy · 2003-10-13 23:34 · Score: 1

When I worked at a Fortune 70, we had a VP who was so clueless, he could never shut down his email program because he didn't know how to enter his password. When the power would flicker, the Controller would leave her office or meeting, go upstairs and sign him on to his email program. Upper management prided themselves on their cluelessness because it made them seem superior. It wasn't until their teenagers looked at them as relics that they started to get concerned about being left behind.

Of course, that didn't stop the VP from coming up with GREAT suggestions that he read about in trade magazines.

--
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
Re:It's called "coaching"... by Recbo · 2003-10-14 07:49 · Score: 1

Don't you hate the way glossy hardcopy magazines hire writers to write? That's why they're never at the edge.

Is coaching outsourced to those who can't do it teaching it? Or offshore boiler-rooms by videoconferencing? That would earn a lot of edgy PCB points, don't you think, and points of the sort PCB's crave, the kind that put geeks in their place. Blazing elitist yuppie fascist methane! "We saved millions by outsourcing our IT coaching to India by CUSEEME...whiteboarded the first day..we'll be using AOL like pros in just 90 more days!!! We showed those geeks why white Baywatch hub oligarchs deserve five times geek pay.".

Which brings us to the point. Commoditizing the people who built the city is why they come.In 2000 interest rates and oil prices commoditized a generation of intellectual capital. Now we're slaves. That's what piratization is really about.
Re:It's called "coaching"... by Recbo · 2003-10-14 09:13 · Score: 1

Consider this. We have on our minds the issue of glass ceiling for IT pros, that's good. How many of us know somebody with an MBA or law degree who is not clueless, who does know how to log on to their email account, who is NOT afraid to log off? There are non-toxic minds in management careers.

Why, I know some who have stopped wearing ties, shaving, or bathing. They're online all the time. Imagine how Dilbert's boss could grow personally during a year of that. He's not doing anything in his corner office with a view now.

Affects the organization by mrscott · 2003-10-13 10:27 · Score: 1

If your antisocial attitude affects the organization to a point where your boss feels like he needs to go elsewhere to ask reasonable questions then it's a problem. If your boss has someone else in the organization that is happy to help then great!

The people above you may not be "better" then you technically, but they may be more capable in areas where it counts with clients and investors.

I've seen some VERY good, but socially inept and arrogant techs get laid off in the last couple of years while those with decent attitudes but with fewer technical skills get to stick around. Let's face it: given the decision to lay off the person who's willing to help vs the arrogant one, who are you going to lay off?

Re:Affects the organization by _Bucktooth_ · 2003-10-13 16:43 · Score: 1

There are good bosses, and there are bad bosses.
My colleauges and I do try to fit in, but because of the bosses "I'm paid more so my opinion counts" attitude, he has repeatedly ignored our opinion and plunged ahead, making some pretty bad decisions that kept our company in red. But yeah, he's soooo much more believable to clients and investors and such.
I think the ideal should go both ways: employees who can communicate their knowledge and bosses who are receptive and respectful. Otherwise, why hire anyone at all, right?
Re:Affects the organization by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-14 03:46 · Score: 0

So true.

At the last company I worked for there was a woman who was an awesome programmer--much better than me, but she had a negative attitude and was constantly frustrated and angry. When it came to lay off time guess who got the axe? She did.

Mod this UP!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:27 · Score: 0

This is a seemingly obvious but powerful insight.

My Dearly Held Illusions by jazman_777 · 2003-10-13 10:29 · Score: 1

they won't seek any training from their own IT staff because that would be an admission of "weakness"

You mean my CEO is not a formidable titan of industry, strong, tough-minded, invulnerable? My illusions are shattered!

--
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.

ere's my problem by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:29 · Score: 0

"When reading some of the posts on Slashdot, I wonder how some of these people can hold a job given their holier-than-thou genius-of-all-tech attitudes."

I am so freaking smart, I make over 6 figures, they promoted me to a senior management position, and my CIO is as frightened of me as the wicked witch is of water.

Its amusing, and he doesn't bug me because I make make frighteningly good decisions, I'm a studied negotiators, and I don't want his job.

SO fuck yeah, I'm good, I'm arrogant, and I don't give a fuck about anything else.

Including you.

In fact, I don't know why I even responded to this tripe.

You make me sick. ANd I mean that in the plural way.

Re:ere's my problem by 91degrees · 2003-10-13 10:42 · Score: 1

Yeah, but you may be in a position to deserve to be arrogant. Besides, you say you have people skills. They count for a lot.
Re:ere's my problem by cpeterso · 2003-10-13 12:20 · Score: 1

You've got people skills and excellent grammar. No wonder you were promoted to senior management!

--
cpeterso

Ignorance is bliss... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:30 · Score: 1, Insightful

Hello:

It looks like this is a good time to look at the difference between "ignorance" and "stupidity".

Your CPA is ignorant if they don't know how to attach to a network drive. They are stupid if they use the CD-Tray for a cup holder.

On the other hand, do you know the formula for "total factor productivity?" If not, then your CPA will think of you as ignorant.

If you think direct deposit is slang for having sex then you are also stupid.

Most professionals are competent, intelligent people who may or may not have good computer skills. Don't forget that from their point of view you too might look ignorant.

Did that come off preachy??? I didn't really mean for it to come of preachy. Damm that was preachy... Ahh well..

OTOH... by OECD · 2003-10-13 10:31 · Score: 1

Perhaps another reason "PHBs" might be heading to other sources than the IT staff is because the IT staff treats them with such contempt?

Or maybe they don't trust IT know what they're doing. When Sobig went around, my IT Director wanted me to disconnect our Macs from the network. I'm going to go to this guy for training?

At first I thought that we needed a word for the IT version of a "PHB". Then I realized we already had "MCSE".

--
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.

Re:OTOH... by ThogScully · 2003-10-13 12:29 · Score: 1

I wish I had mod points - I haven't laughed so hard in a long time...
-N

--
I've nothing to say here...

Sexual connotations by Kashif+Shaikh · 2003-10-13 10:32 · Score: 1

'Secret Training' is nothing more than 'can you teach me this, while I fuck you?"

Big difference by mrscott · 2003-10-13 10:33 · Score: 1

The key difference there is the line of business. In the NFL, you damn well better have people that know what they're doing to make the right calls.

The same is true for tech companies. I wouldn't expect too many executives at Microsoft or Cisco have trouble with technology. However, that's their line of business.

Now, take Krispy Kreme. The executives there had better be able to make decisions regarding delivery, production, etc. Sure - they might rely on technology to get some of this done, but their expertise is in running their doughnut (mmmm.... donuts!) business for which technology is simply a tool they use. In these situations, the executive management needs people that understand technology and how it can improve the business and they shuoldn't be afraid to ask for tech lessons from the IT staff in areas where it might be able to help them make better decisions.

I'd be irritated... by alien666 · 2003-10-13 10:34 · Score: 1

I'd be irritated that the poor helpless bastard is wasting the company's excess profit on overpriced training.

Supervisor by Sklein382 · 2003-10-13 10:36 · Score: 1

My supervisor gets really defensive if I try to explain stuff to him. "I knew that, I just wanted you to explain it better to (insert other person here)". Yea. It's funny sometimes.

Goes both ways by Pvt_Waldo · 2003-10-13 10:36 · Score: 1

A lot of us techno weenies don't know jack about how to deal with some of the other realities of a company you know. There's a reason why in modern society you don't fix your own car, build your own house, grow your own food, etc. And there's a reason why in a modern company everyone doesn't know everything about each task, speciality, or knowledge collection that collectively defines a type of worker, a work group, division, etc.

Re:Goes both ways by sn0wcrash · 2003-10-13 20:50 · Score: 1

Actually many people do all of the things you have listed. There are many reasons people don't fix thier own car, build thier own house or grow their own food. Not always because of lack of knowledge. I can generally fix my own car, but the one I drive now is under warranty. So I am going to let someone else fix it at no cost under warranty. I'm not yet ready to build the house I plan on retiring in. So I have a crappily built tract home. When it comes time I will at the very least very closely supervise the constuction of my house and likely do many things myself. I don't grow my own food.. but many people still have vegetable gardens. Granted.. not enough to feed them year round.. but it can still have an impact.

However, the number of people that can do all these things is diminishing. Modern society tells us we must specialize into some very narrow field of knowledge. I'm not supposed to be able to fix my car, my computer and install my kitchen sink. Business today rewards narrow minds. You are expected to fit into a very easily defined job with a very specific skillset. People with broad skills and abilities aren't necessarily rewarded.

Not only that by Mycroft_514 · 2003-10-13 10:36 · Score: 1

But some of us have enough to do without helping those that won't help themselves. As for being nice to everyone all the time, do the bosses want that, or do they want the guy who can bail them out when it hits the fan?

I can remember back a few years, having a boss type on my terminal while I was on the phone and walking him thru a database restore. He wouldn't even know what manual to look in, let alone be able to run the job! And the restore was part of the payroll system for a multi-billion dollar company.

Heck, I'm still at work now, because I am restoring a test database from production so a programmer, who screwed up, can have the copy of production data to test her correction program against.

Re:Not only that by GoofyBoy · 2003-10-13 10:46 · Score: 1

>As for being nice to everyone all the time, do the bosses want that, or do they want the guy who can bail them out when it hits the fan?

How about a guy who they feel confident will bail them out when it does hit the fan?

And that involves social skills.

--
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.

From the Article by SkippyTPE · 2003-10-13 10:38 · Score: 1

...giving pointers in the fine arts of opening e-mail attachments

Oh great. I've finally trained my PHB's to NOT open the damned things!

Thanks Lady!

SOME PHB'S READ SLASHDOT by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:40 · Score: 0

you insensitive clod!

PHB? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:42 · Score: 0

Am I the only person who doesn't know what a PHB is?

On the other hand: by Atario · 2003-10-13 10:44 · Score: 1

knowing their apps from their elbows

Best. Pun. EVAR.

--
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt

WTF is a PHB? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:46 · Score: 0

What the freak is a "PHB"? I have been in IT for years, I have never run across that acronym. Please when submitting articles, apply basic journalism practice: on first mention spell it out and put the acronym in parentheses. Then you may refer to the acronym for the rest of the article. Otherwise it is pretty damn enigmatic.

Slashdot reformed by mrscott · 2003-10-13 10:47 · Score: 1

This is an awesome post and more than a little insightful. I don't have mod points so I had to post it :-)

Not that there's any generalizations by The+Angry+Mick · 2003-10-13 10:53 · Score: 1

in this post:

I find it funny that a group that collectively has trouble with personal hygiene, getting a date, ever getting a second date, finding something to talk about besides computers, etc is down on high level executives.

Brought to you by a happily married sysadmin with excellent personal hygeine . . .

--

I'm not tense. I'm just terribly, terribly, alert.

I had a PHB once... by TheSHAD0W · 2003-10-13 10:53 · Score: 1

...I was working at a job where the owner had changed. The original computer network was twinax, running off an IBM System 36. (Twinax is expensive stuff, $8 per foot, a twisted pair inside a heavy copper braid.) I was replacing it with a Lantastic network with the file server being a puny little 286/12 running FoxPro. (And yes, folks, it would've worked with the load it would've had to handle.) Anyway, I'd spent a godawful amount of time running cable for Arcnet through the ceiling, and in the end, the network wouldn't net, and I couldn't figure out why. (Probably got sold the wrong cabling.) The old machine was long gone, the sales manager needed access, and the PHB was yelling at me. Above all, he couldn't understand why I couldn't use the old twinax cabling, and I kept trying to explain that it was completely different...

Then I had an apostrophe [sic].

Within a half hour I had the network up and running... Over the old twinax cables... Using serial connections.

And it wouldn't've happened without the pointy-haired boss.

Re:I had a PHB once... by Bob+Uhl · 2003-10-14 09:52 · Score: 1

Then I had an apostrophe [sic].
An epiphany, perhaps? An apostrophe is a punctuation mark: '. It is also a figure of speech (speaking to an absent or imaginary person, or personified abstraction, particularly in the midst of normal speech).
And [sic] is used in print when quoting the incorrect spelling (or, less commonly, grammar) used by another. It's a method of indicating that the mistake is not one's own. Sic, of course, is Latin for 'thus'; you are writing that the original quote was thus.
If you are unsure of the proper spelling of a word, and wish to indicate this (an admirable goal), it is common online to use '<?<' or a similar variation; there's no counterpart in traditional publishing.
There is, so far as I know, no short-hand for indicating that doesn't know which word one is seeking. Normally I suppose one would just use a parenthetical comment.

MOD PARENT UP! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:54 · Score: 0

I agree. Oh, do I ever agree.

Mod parent up... by RareHeintz · 2003-10-13 10:55 · Score: 1

If you're going to break someone's balls about not knowing things you weren't born knowing either, try not to display your ignorance so egregiously in the process.

'Nuff said.

OK,
- B

--
http://www.bradheintz.com/
- updated

"showing weakness"?!? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 10:57 · Score: 0

I know very few people will read this comment but I'll post it anyway.

If they can't ask their staff for assistance without "showing weakness", they shouldn't be managing anything more important than a fast food restaurant. Not the chain. Just one store. And preferrably one wedged in the corner of a gas station.

Comfort Zone by CmdrGravy · 2003-10-13 11:01 · Score: 1

Whilst it's nice to characterize my boss an incompetent nicompoop, an opion greatly strengthend by his relative lack of knowledge of most of the systems we are running ( as well as a big void where knowledge of things like Exel and Powerpoint normally live ) I don't think it's entirely fair.

His job is not to have an intimate understanding of how everything works and how to fix it because that's what he pays me for. His job is to listen to what I am telling him and mediate between the advice I am giving him as to what we can improve and how and what his bosses are telling him about how much he can spend and the kind of capabilities our systems will be needing in the future.

I know fuck all about negotiating, people management, securing all expenses paid trips around Northern Europe and I would hope my boss doesn't think that makes me an idiot !

Re:Comfort Zone by im+a+fucking+coward · 2003-10-13 18:55 · Score: 1

The difference being, we can throw you in a suit, teach you basic social group dynamics, some psychology, and some basic accounting practices and acronyms and have you doing his job in two weeks.

Whereas this is just a recipe for disaster: His job is to listen to what I am telling him and mediate between [me] ... what his bosses are telling him ... capabilities our systems will be needing in the future.

From a management dynamics point of view, this means he's making crritical decisions based on how much he likes you on a given day, not because he understands your translated (read dumbed down) expertise.

Good luck!

I could use some personal training by weave · 2003-10-13 11:06 · Score: 1

I'm an IT guy, and I could use some training on the other end of the spectrum. I don't use many popular apps at all. Very rarily do I fire up an Office program, for example. I spend my days in a text editor changing config files, or banging out scripts of one thing or another.

Training classes for these programs are dead boring waste of time, so I usually can stumble through what I need to learn to get by if needed. But it'd be great to have app training for techies. Accelerated pace, no hand holding, just fire off what I need to know and answer questions quickly and accurately.

I'm always amazed at how people ask me questions about Office and when I say I don't use it, they can't believe it. But you're a computer guru!

Re:I could use some personal training by Raven42rac · 2003-10-13 12:17 · Score: 1

Dude, I am the exact same way. "How do you use tables in Word?". "Haven't a clue.". "Really, but I thought you were an expert." "I don't use word I use vi/notepad/textedit. Or OOO" "Huh?" "Nevermind."

--
I hate sigs.
Re:I could use some personal training by im+a+fucking+coward · 2003-10-13 18:32 · Score: 1

Amen brother. I gave up trying to explain that I could code it in PHP or Java or C or C++, or script it in bash, but the whole Office app thing seemed sorta broken to me.

So I ended up completely wasting a day re-learning the latest Office crap, and now I just make it work and walk away. Nice eye candy, but the temptation to create VB script/macro viruses is so strong I'm not going to give it any more effort than that.

Go away little people, you're confusing me with destop support.

2nd or 3rd Edition? by t0ny · 2003-10-13 11:07 · Score: 1

I cant verify this, but once I find what box my Player's Handbook is in, I will let everybody know.

--

Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

MOVE! by psychogentoo · 2003-10-13 11:09 · Score: 1

I can see using an outside source if they didn't want to deal with the local "Nick Burns" telling them to "Move!" everytime they needed help.

Maybe the real reason is that they have no one in their IT department left to help them due to outsourcing.

This explains so much by interociter · 2003-10-13 11:12 · Score: 1

They don't know how to use a computer, yet they're the ones making the technological decisions. Furthermore, they're more afraid of looking dumb once than of wallowing in ignorance forever. Finally, who the hell's paying this $50 an hour to teach "Intro to Computers" to the CEO? Let me guess? The company?

Funny story, and by "funny", I mean not funny at all. A friend of mine (we'll call him Dude) was the IT guy for a company that made one of those usb-drive-on-a-keychain things. Bleeding edge tech, right? The CEO called Dude daily to have him "fix" his laptop. And by "fix", I mean "open a new Word doc", "click Send/Receive in Outlook", and "Open browser window". One day, after three months of this, the CEO called Dude and started screaming at him about "why doesn't my computer ever work and why can't you just fix it". Dude reported to the CEO's office and was greeted with more top-volume abuse in front of several staff members. When Dude pointed out that the CEO couldn't get online because hadn't plugged in the network cable (in a less-than-polite tone), he was immediately fired.

I don't actually expect that my company's CEO should know how to configure a Linux box, but he better have an understanding of why we support Linux and not AIX, and what would be involved in porting the software from *nix to Windows BEFORE he orders us to do so.

--
Interociter
-=What do I want? I'm an American. I want more.

Yay! I love these stories by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 11:16 · Score: 0

Wahoo for 300 posts of verbal wanking about who is the bigger asshole!

"You are a dick!"
"No, you are the dick!"
"No, you are the dick for so arrogantly calling me a dick!"
etc...

Everyone goes home smug! (Including me.)

PHBs? by thepacketmaster · 2003-10-13 11:17 · Score: 1

Psycho Hose Beast?

--

Luck is just skill you didn't know you had.

Re:PHBs? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 11:24 · Score: 0

And I thought PHB was "Pretty, Hot Babes!"
No p0rn here?

Nothing new.... by jsimon12 · 2003-10-13 11:19 · Score: 1

5 or 6 years ago during the tech boom I used to "tutor" a couple C*O types from some local large companies. Got to be pretty nerve racking, seeing as I have no patience and these types usually have no buissness touching computers ;)

And there are those who WON?T be helped by theolein · 2003-10-13 11:20 · Score: 1

A lot of us, one hell of a lot of us, have had the flip side to this wonderful warm and fuzzy story: A boss screaming at you, manipulating you and refusing to understand even if you take hours of time to explain the matter with physical analogies such as filing cabinets and other things. How many of us have heard the phrase, screamed at us in high decibel tones, "I don't care what it is, it has to work, it's all your fault"?

The idea that IT is contemptuous of PHBs is often correct, as the IT will make clear in private amongst colleagues, but it is most often that the contempt is a product of the PHB abusing his power and treating underlings like shit.

Meanwhile... by Pvt_Waldo · 2003-10-13 11:23 · Score: 1

Millions of geeks get "real world" training daily from books, TV shows, sometimes girlfriends (or boyfriends) and even Mom!

How to dress...

How to talk to girls...

How to bath regularly... :^)

You can'r beat us, join us by donnz · 2003-10-13 11:26 · Score: 1

whois pointyhairedboss.geek.nz?

--
-- Free software on every PC on every desk

Oh, for the want of a single mod point... by Nick+Driver · 2003-10-13 11:27 · Score: 1

... to give this one a +1 Funny!

It's about job security by lonesomeprole · 2003-10-13 11:29 · Score: 1

With all the outsourcing and staff trimmings of late, the PHBs are getting nervous. They don't have the staffing stability to guarantee senoir staff positions. Their staff can no longer be taken for granted when troubleshooting and gathering requirements.

If nothing else, PHBs will survive. That is their nature.

Bastardized... by HaloZero · 2003-10-13 11:31 · Score: 1

A proper BOFH would tell you that it stands for Pig Headed Boss.

--
Informatus Technologicus

It's not enitrely their fault by lurker412 · 2003-10-13 11:35 · Score: 1

It is way too easy to mock executives who don't know how to use computers. Perhaps if you think about your parents instead you will see it from another perspective. Computer user interfaces have not changed significantly in almost twenty years. The Web has made navigation even more mysterious to non-techies than the local hierarchical file system. Computers are still too hard to use for most people who did not grow up with them. And that's a failure of design by the technical experts.

Hammers and Nails by rowland · 2003-10-13 11:38 · Score: 1

When all you have is a hammer, you go looking for nails. It's a cinch the PHB will be no different and attempt to show off his or her newfound knowledge by regurgitating what he or she just learned--great for laughs!

--
100,000 lemmings can't all be wrong.

Re: Mod parent as low as technically possible by stefanb · 2003-10-13 11:40 · Score: 1

In the world I live in, Dilbert is not funny. It's true.

I guess your definition and mine are different by Mycroft_514 · 2003-10-13 11:46 · Score: 1

To me, being there to bail them out is part of the tech skills, not part of social skills. It is part of the package of pride in being a professional. Pride in doing the job correctly the first time.

Re:I guess your definition and mine are different by GoofyBoy · 2003-10-13 12:09 · Score: 1

I think our definitions are the same.

I'm just saying that bailing out is great but it doesn't hurt to instill confidence into a person that you have the technical skills and are willing to solve problems.

Pride in gaining a person's trust and confidence is also a good thing.

--
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.

What's a PHB? by unsung · 2003-10-13 11:59 · Score: 1

Maybe someone can train me on this 'PHB' acronym. :).

Meanwhile, I definitely see both sides of this issue. On the one hand, I coach my father on his computer - I try to be about as patient as possible, going through commands repeatedly.

On the other hand, my boss was constantly downloading virii and crashing his computer. He looks me in the eye and tells me that he never opens any unknown attachment, yet he's always talking about the spam that he get's as if it came from a close personal friend. "Someone just sent me an email asking about joining a pyramid scheme. What do you think?" The things he says... I am in disbelief when it turns out he's not being sarcastic.

That part is pretty frustrating - I end up staying late at work scanning or reinstalling his system - and the other day we got into a heated argument about my bad attitude.

fp by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 12:03 · Score: 0

first post to Gnaa, yo

IT staff by moss1956 · 2003-10-13 12:04 · Score: 1

I can really appreciate the feelings of executives. Me being a lowly college professor, when I went over to using Unix from Macintosh I made the mistake of asking questions of the computer support group. Never again. It was the first time since I was a freshman in highschool that I had to put up with that kind of derisive,abusive behavior. That was about `95. My solution was to start using Linux, where I had complete control of my machine. I took a lot of hell back then, with my Slackware box on my desk. Eight years later, more and more machines in my department at Linux boxes. In another 5 years there won't be a computer support group.

So, did the Qwest guy agree or what? by bob_calder · 2003-10-13 12:07 · Score: 1

I know how hard to find which guy has the brain this week.
You know, they take turns and nobody ever tells anybody else which floor or which shift the brain will turn up on.

--
Any preoccupation with ideas of what is right or wrong in conduct shows an arrested intellectual development. (Wilde)

Um...no by Goonie · 2003-10-13 12:10 · Score: 1

technology is simply a tool they use

Sorry, but that's just not true. Tech is a fundamental part of large business - if it breaks, your business can go under, and better tech can be a major source of competitive advantage. An executive who doesn't have a working understanding of technology is like an executive who doesn't have a working understanding of accountancy or marketing. Even for Krispy Kreme.

--

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)

Re:Um...no by Fulcrum+of+Evil · 2003-10-13 13:07 · Score: 1

Tech is a fundamental part of large business - if it breaks, your business can go under

So is delivery - should your CEO learn how to drive a truck?

--
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"

Absolutely by benjamindees · 2003-10-13 12:15 · Score: 1

The IT industry is a mess because PHBs made it a mess. If the typical life of a middle manager involved:

1) working for a temp service,

2) changing jobs every six months,

3) being expected to re-learn your entire job every two years to stay up with 'technology',

4) having a 4 year degree become useless two months after you graduate because of said technology 'upgrades',

5) being on-call 24/7 to do side jobs at your bosses' home,

6) having your job outsourced to third world countries;

7) and, in general, being completely ignored and mistrusted on every piece of advice you give,

they wouldn't have so much extra time to learn a few buzzwords and second-guess their 'expert' staff or find ways to replace them with MSCE monkeys.

--
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"

sanity injection by Druegan · 2003-10-13 12:27 · Score: 2, Interesting

The problem with fields which are in demand is that the practicioners often don't see anything whatsoever wrong with their primadonna attitudes.

This is most certainly true.. but to lay the statement solely upon the shoulders of techs is misleading. Marketing and Management have also produced a giant portion of primadonna attitudes during the last few decades.

You're just the computer dork. Get over it.

For some reason, in this sentance I smell a primadonna attitude. There is one small FACT that I think needs interjected here. Business in todays world is NOTHING without IT, and IT, in todays world, is NOTHING without business. Marketing and Management cannot begin to be competative in business environs without computer technology. Period. This means they NEED those "computer dorks". Conversely, those "computer dorks" need somebody to sign their paycheck, buy the hardware, and generate the business that creates the demand for their services.

And before you whine about how twenty minutes could save these people so much this and that and the other, let me remind you that each one of those people almost certainly also has some common skill set that you don't - simple home maintenance, car maintenance, farming, writing, et cetera

Now that the stench of condescension has risen to it's glorious heights.. Time to inject some sanity. First of all, nearly EVERYONE in a corporate environment today is dependant upon computers to do their jobs. Yes, the intricacies of the shadow world of technology are truly only for its denizens, but so are the intricacies of the shadow world of Marketing. Same with the shadow world of Management.

It behooves everyone, however, to take the time to learn at least the basic operations of the tools REQUIRED to do their job. I think anyone would agree that this is a reasonable statement.

I cannot see any sane tech expecting an executive to be able to recompile a kernel, or tweak a protocol stack.. but honestly... It is nowhere near the shadow world of technology to learn to press the "online" button of a printer.. nor is it unreasonable to expect even an exec to learn that the cd-rom is not a cupholder, or to learn that the monitor is not the CPU.

Yes, others have skill sets that techs don't. However, the level of base ignorance, often willful, of the operation of the basic tools required in Marketing or Management is staggering. A computer is one of those tools. It is akin to a carpenter not knowing how to use a drill, a farmer not knowing how to use a tractor, or a mechanic not knowing where to put oil in a car.

Sure, the mechanic may not know how motor oil is refined out of crude oil, a carpenter may not know how to fix the motor on his drill, and a farmer may not be able to repair a blown gasket on his tractor... but they all know how to use those tools in their proper function, or they don't succeed.

Management and Marketing has some degree of contempt for technology, even though it is their lifeblood. They take it for granted, and as such, they treat techs accordingly. Techs look upon those people with derision because they spend SO much time dealing with RTFM cases. Techs are just as overworked as anyone else, and unfortunately, the problem Marketing and Management persons think it is beneath them to learn to use the tools they need.

M&M's need to learn to use computers, so I'm all for training, secret or otherwise. The less stupidity a tech has to deal with on a daily basis, the more sociable the tech will inevitably be. The rediculously arrogant on both sides need to be canned in a hurry, period.

The lack of consideration and social skills is not simply the domain of geeks, friend... They span the board.

She's teaching them *what*?! by Fangboner · 2003-10-13 12:29 · Score: 1

The article states that the trainer is:

giving pointers in the fine arts of opening e-mail attachments...

I didn't think technophobes had to be taught how to do that. Maybe if she taught them not to, she'd be up for a Nobel Peace Prize.

What else is she teaching them? How to install trojans and spyware?

What is a PHB? by magic · 2003-10-13 12:35 · Score: 1

I don't know what PHB stands for-- can someone tell me?

-m

Re:What is a PHB? by Phil+John · 2003-10-13 12:54 · Score: 1

I don't know if you're kidding or not, but if you aren't, look at dilbert.com and read through the comic archive. The boss in the comics has pointy hair, is technically and socially innept and is part of the reason his company is failing.

It's now a derogatory term used to mock those in management who don't know their arse from their face, i.e. are totally useless and only there because nobody has the guts to fire or demote them (see also, the peter principle and the dilbert principle)

--
I am NaN
Re:What is a PHB? by Retired+Replicant · 2003-10-14 05:35 · Score: 1

Now since you didn't know what a PHB is, you must be one yourself. However, I applaud your willingness to show weakness by asking others for help in finding out what a PHB is.
Re:What is a PHB? by magic · 2003-10-14 15:25 · Score: 1

I get it now, "Pointy Haired Boss"-- thanks.

-m

Er... no by DrCode · 2003-10-13 12:45 · Score: 1

I know almost every thread here has at least one comment like this. Yet everywhere I've worked (for over 25 years), most of the people I've worked with, however strange and geeky, were married.

Hell, even I got married, and I'm not only a lifelong nerd, but short and funny-looking.

Hummmm by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 12:47 · Score: 0

After looking at their history I think this is an attempt at both karma whoring and trolling.

Quality control by HiThere · 2003-10-13 13:05 · Score: 1

The nice thing about doing instruction in secret is that there's no quality control.

The bad thing is you have to depend on the person being tutored to tell you what he needs to learn.

The only upside I see here is for the instructors, but they'd better remember to be careful about how they phrase this on their resume. "Assisted XYZ Corp with fraud" doesn't sound particularlly good.

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.

Maybe it's my dyslexia.... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 13:14 · Score: 0

When I first read the title, I saw:

PHBs Getting IT in "Secret"

And my reaction was: What else is new?

You can hack more than just computers: by Mr.+Flibble · 2003-10-13 13:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yeah, I have no social skills. I'm what you would call a dork or a nerd. But thats ok, because am not here to be please everybody.

You don't have to please everybody - but you will find that your life goes a great deal easier if the people around you like you.

If you recognize the fact that you have no social skills, then, if you are technically minded as you say - why don't you point some of your intellect towards social skills? I used to be in the same situation - a geek in highschool (and still today) I never talked to anyone, never went on dates etc. However, after I decided that I wanted to get better social skills my life changed instantly - for the better.

Right now I have a good deal of Unix experience in an enterprise environment - yet, I just took a sales job. Why? I want to be a better sales person. I want to understand all aspects of business so I can go into business for myself one day. As it happens I am selling computers, just something I happen to know about. I find it makes your life easier if you try to fix what you might consider weaknesses in your character. It has worked for me quite well so far. It is something to consider.

As far as the holier than thou attitude, yeah, so what? I'm choosy about the people I like and if I'm condescending its because a lot of people who're above me are there not because they're better than me but because they have the "Oh so called Social Skills."

If you are technically minded, you are likely logically minded as well. Technology involves solving problems - so does social skills. However, it also involves understanding other peoples feelings and empathy. A great book to read and begin to understand this is the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Steven Covey. It would probably be worth your time to read, especially if you know that is is a weak area of yours.

You certanly sound angry at the people who have "Social Skills" so why don't you point a little logic of yours in that direction? It is easier than you might think.

I don't see the point -- as long as I do my job and get my stuff done, whats the point and the problem?

Whether you are employed or not quite often depends on your social skills. Really, if you keep pissing off the PHB, they will replace you, and if you have no social skills, you will never even see it coming.

You could almost rewrite that line by saying:
I don't see the point -- as long as I write crappy code that barely works, whats the point and the problem?

No, that is not fair to rewrite it like that - but it is an appropriate analogy for how other people might feel about your attitude. Most people see having social skills as an INTEGRAL part of getting along with co-workers. And, getting along with one's co-works is part of your job.

All that most "informed bosses" can do is kiss everyone's ass and pretend to know everything. And serve everything as sugar coated lies to the clients and investors.

Yes - and that is THEIR JOB They are in business - they have to be able to sell. You can make fun of the PHB's who can't use the computers (and there are many) but how many coders understand a balance sheet, and can sell their product effectively? You know, amongst the PHB's the last thing they want is an engineer near a client - engineers (generally) are not good salespeople. If you don't have good salespeople - you don't have a job and pay the bills. You are stuck coding free software (which is just fine) but you can't pay the power bill to keep your system running.

I would much rather not pretend to empathize with such people.

Part of having social skills would mean that you understand WHY they are doing what they do, so that you can in fact have REAL empathy for them. Not fake empathy. Faking empathy is not a socia

--
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!

Re:You can hack more than just computers: by LarsWestergren · 2003-10-13 18:54 · Score: 1

I started writing an angry answer to the "I don't need no steeenking social skills" guy, then I read your post and decided not to bother, I wouldn't come up with anything so eloquent. Well said.

I got a job as a sysadmin 6 months ago, my first permanent full time job. There were 120 people who applied to the job, 10 who were interviewed, and I was the one who landed the job. They said a BIG reason was that I seemed like a nice and patient guy, which was important when working with people who might not be very computer literate.

And I agree, most geeks don't understand how difficult it is being a good boss or good salesperson. If you don't think it sounds fun, you should be grateful someone else does it for you, not look down on them.

--
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die

what are you talking about? by Erris · 2003-10-13 13:21 · Score: 1

I find it funny that a group that collectively has trouble with personal hygiene, getting a date, ever getting a second date, finding something to talk about besides computers, etc

Nothing you can say about Steve Balmer will make me think any worse of him.

So they don't know computer applications.

This is only a problem when they run a technology firm, like that dummy that's running HP into the ground.

They know finance, marketing, operations, negotiating, and a host of other things that mostly don't have anything to do with computers, but do have a lot to do with ongoing success.

These are simple things and most of us know them.

One of the happiest, best paying environments I ever worked in ... silly little mainframe, while our mighty intranet continued to win the hearts & minds of the people in the field.

I'm sorry it's been so long since you had a job. Things will get better soon and you will have something better to do than troll slashdot for dollars.

Instead of poking fun at them, maybe you should study them - they *are* the ones with the money/power/cars with power windows that work - you might just learn something.

Well, that's right. Most people study sucess storries. What YOU need to learn is the difference between people who really acomplish things and tin horns. Bill Gates is a tin horn. He's made a lot of noise and he's made himself look all shiny, but he's done it at other people's expense and it won't last much longer. Richard Stalman has made little noise and made much less money, but he's given everyone some very nice software and can have lunch with smiling friends anywhere in the world. More importantly, Stalman gave us all a good lesson in what's right. That's a real acomplishment.

--
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.

Why should they know ? by tuomoks · 2003-10-13 13:23 · Score: 1

My $0.02 - as long as their decisions have nothing to do with computers or IT - why should they know, what is there to be ashame ? Actually - I'm afraid when one of the business bosses starts talkin of computers, you can hear that they are aping some sales or consultants. It's another thing if your IT / development managers don't know anything - too common today IMHO. But a little consulting will not help them - or even that they did take computer 101 or maybe even wrote a small program 20 years ago. They need therapy, not just a little help.

This is unexpected? by drewmca · 2003-10-13 13:25 · Score: 1

I worked tech support for an investment bank in San Fran during the dot com boom. You can imagine the kind of shit I encountered in that job. This of course came from bankers, analysts, and traders who were telling their clients about great new technology that they themselves were pretty clueless on.

My favorite was going down to the trade floor to have an a-hole trader yell at me while waving his mouse around in the air. "This fxxxing thing doesn't work! Make it work!" (what pleasant people, traders; take every D+ student you ever knew in high school and put him in a sweaty-pit dress shirt and tie and you get the picture). The fix was to take the mouse and put it back down on the table, on the cryptically named "mouse pad", so that the ball could actually touch something other than air.

Dilemma by t_allardyce · 2003-10-13 13:26 · Score: 1

Oh the dilemma, you want the PHB to know enough to not come up with stupid ideas and expect you to implement them, but you want them to not know enough to interfere with your BOFH activities...

--
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.

You got it! by Erris · 2003-10-13 13:26 · Score: 1

now, if the boss is an idiot, and the employees are idiots, well, you're probably going to be seeing some blood sucking consultants eating your company's money pretty soon.

Like the kind of consultants that only come out at night to teach the boss how to use a spreadsheet? Someone drive a steak through the PHB's little heart before they buy us all into Windoze 2003!

--
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.

PHB=???? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 13:33 · Score: 0

WHAT THE HELL DOES PHB STAND FOR???? This kind of arrogance amongst the Slashdot staff really pisses me off - how about defining more acronyms around here, you know, for those of us with actual lives???

Re:PHB=???? by TeddyR · 2003-10-13 13:42 · Score: 1

Ok.. i'll bite....

Pointy Haired Boss

originally from the comic strip Dilbert

to quote
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/the_c haracte rs/

"He's every employee's worst nightmare. He wasn't born mean and unscrupulous, he worked hard at it. And succeeded. As for stupidity, well, some things are inborn. "

"His top priorities are the bottom line and looking good in front of his subordinates and superiors (not necessarily in that order). Of absolutely no concern to him is the professional or personal well-being of his employees. The Boss is technologically challenged but he stays current on all the latest business trends, even though he rarely understands them."

Now its evolved to

--

--
Time is on my side
Re:PHB=???? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-14 01:34 · Score: 0

hi reader of above post:

btw, when you figure out puzzles this way, no matter what, you've lost.

any "real person" would ask his pal, or remark about it out loud, and a "friend unit" would update him in the information. see also "net lag."

cheer.s

Bosses just "misunderstood"-want a hug. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 13:34 · Score: 0

"Get over yourselves. An informed boss can make better decisions and work easier. And, if you can help them in a way that doesn't involve humiliating them, maybe it will come back and reward you."

Would those happen to be the same "bosses" that are doing this?

With "bosses" like that, who needs enemies.

It's called "coaching"...Pop n' Fresh. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 13:40 · Score: 0

"My boss told me that when he took his first CIO job (moving from an operations management job) that not only did his boss encourage and pay for an IT "coach" to give him a crash course in IT, he said it was pretty common for execs to use "coaches" for all kinds of things, including a fair amount of touchy-feely management subjects."

I'd rather not be touched "there", if you don't mind.

Don't underestimate them by The+Tyro · 2003-10-13 13:45 · Score: 1

I think you are generalizing too broadly... but I'll grant you your point for the moment; some of them are simply ass-suckling yes-men. They may not know anything about earning an honest living, or about IT... but they are VERY GOOD at playing the machiavellian corporate game. THAT is their strength... and that is why you must understand them, and avoid them.

Schmoozing... hinting... innuendo... back-stabbing... manipulating... networking... paybacks... passive-agressive personalities all.

Sun-Tzu preached knowing your enemy, and part of that dictum is to understand his strengths, and not to fight him in an area where he is strong, and you are weak.

They may not know a DS3 from a fractional T-1, but they are very good at self-promotion, and they tend to survive in companies. They also make bad enemies (trust me), and it can really hurt you to end up on one of their "accounts receivable" lists for future retribution. They are VERY skilled in their own way, and they play a game that most geeks can never hope to play (not that you'd want to).

You underestimate these people at your own peril... I pity you if you have one for a boss.

--
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.

No by Goonie · 2003-10-13 13:51 · Score: 1

...but if he's responsible for purchasing trucks then they should know enough about them to understand and evaluate the advice they are receiving from their experts...

--

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)

Re:No by Fulcrum+of+Evil · 2003-10-13 14:41 · Score: 1

if he's responsible for purchasing trucks then they should know enough about them to understand and evaluate the advice they are receiving from their experts

Part of being the CEO is trusting those under you to make the correct technical decisions, even if you don't understand the reasoning yourself. Of course, a good track record helps this a lot.

--
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"

No. by Watts+Martin · 2003-10-13 14:01 · Score: 1

With only one exception I can think of right now, every company I've been at has had a majority of top-level execs, including CEOs, who worked their way up through their industry on the engineering side. Some of them worked on some very high profile stuff in their respective industries, from teams at Sperry-Univac to helping to launch Electronic Arts. (Even the company that I'm calling an exception landed great executive-level talent on occasion, including one of the co-authors of Wizardry. They're an exception because they tended to drive the talented execs away quickly.)

Executives don't lose their brains when they become execs, but they lose direct contact with technologies. They're managing people--and managing companies, hopefully well. It's a different skill set. That doesn't mean they don't keep up with technologies--at least in the best cases--but they'll be keeping up with it at a "high-level view," not an engineering view.

Sure, there are a lot of bullpucky artists in executive offices. There's a lot of ones in engineering, too. But the problem with most "dotbombs" wasn't executives who lacked technical skills. It was executives who were techies -- with no business skills.

Hey, maybe it's more than tech ignorance... by Cheetahfeathers · 2003-10-13 14:02 · Score: 1

When are they going to realize that a lot of techs don't like PHB types because they're so fake, plastic and backstabbing.

Re:Hey, maybe it's more than tech ignorance... by im+a+fucking+coward · 2003-10-13 17:36 · Score: 1

Well, if the CEO could do IT's job, hack registry, config sendmail in their sleep, install trojans, track every web site, read every email/document/log every IM session, you'd be scared of them too.

Corporate training is 20 years behind the times in certain key areas, and networking with IT personnel just happens to be one of them. It's no coincedence that ethics is another.

Be generous. Every geek should be able to use corporate heads as a buffer to scum like sales. You control the information. Flex some muscle. In the information age, who do you suppose holds all the power? If it's not you, perhaps you're doing something wrong. Or you've stupidly become a figurehead.

Mutant secretaries??? by Grizzlysmit · 2003-10-13 14:05 · Score: 1

"These secretaries were typing with 15 fingers and the poor executives were looking for the 'X' key and the 'Y' key,"

So who gives a stuff about the executives and Their 'X' and 'Y' key problems: what I want to know is where do they get those mutant secretaries with 15 fingers???

--
in my life God comes first.... but Linux is pretty high after that :-D
Francis Smit

Yet another software cowboy by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · 2003-10-13 14:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

Yeah, I have no social skills. I'm what you would call a dork or a nerd. But thats ok, because am not here to be please everybody.

That would have worked a few years ago, when computers were still a bold new frontier. Think about the Old West--at first rugged individualist cowboys and adventurers are rewarded, because the place was so empty that ability to deal with nature was more important than ability to deal with your neighbor. In fact, people probably went out west because they couldn't stand their neighbors back east.

Think about how much of America was built by people who couldn't stand their old neighbors. Even the native americans must have really hated China at some point.

Then, as things began to get crowded, the same sort of business men and politicians from back east began to rise above everyone else, and the cowboy lifestyle began to decline.

It's the same with computers--first it was dominated by nerds like you (and possibly me...) who were really good with machines. But as there got to be more and more of us, and as the machines got more and more reliable, then yet another frontier starts to close, and making people happy once again becomes more important than making machines go.

Now, the mature thing for folk like us to do is to either find a new frontier, or accept the world as it is, and try to improve our social skills as best we can.

Yet before I do that, I'd like to take a moment to shed a tear for the death of yet another frontier, yet another chance to make the American dream a reality. The American Dream, by the way, is that one can improve one's own lot in life simply by doing a better job, through physical or intellectual effort, rather than by kissing the asses of whatever feudal lord happens to be dominating our lives at the moment. That individual worth could somehow beat out nepotism and favortism. A sweet, yet elusive dream

And before I allow Stockholm syndrome to completely overwhelm me, I lament how much of humanities effort is wasted in the collective solipsism advocated by so many people who reply to you--the opinion that physical reality outside humanity is of less importance than social reality within humanity. A society which believes that itself is the most important thing in the universe will experieince very limited growth.

Re:Yet another software cowboy by metlin · 2003-10-13 14:26 · Score: 1

Most of the comments to my post just make me think of this -- if Newton were alive today, would he have survived with his almost anti-social skills?

Yes, I lack social skills. But are they really that important? Does that mean that there is only so much that I can do, and only so much that I can accomplish just because I'm bad with people?

I would like to believe otherwise. I would like to believe that despite my shortcomings, and despite my inability to adjust, I can live the way I want to. And do things that I like, and the things that I'm good at.

I'll end this on a quote by Bernard Shaw -- "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
Re:Yet another software cowboy by ThisIsFred · 2003-10-13 16:30 · Score: 1

If you are a techie, You should consider a career in creating popular literature instead. Maybe with a stop-over as a political speechwriter.

Wow...

--
Fred

"A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
-RMS
Re:Yet another software cowboy by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-14 02:39 · Score: 1, Insightful

Certainly at some point 'ass-kissing' and political posturing are detrimental.

But on the other hand sociopathic anarchy can eventually get out of hand as well.

The "yet another cowboy" post is eloquent, but having some people skills is not the same as the failure of the American Dream.

Our social networks are what lifted us out of the mud and gave us such bonuses as group hunting, speech, civilization, even the ability to conceptualize that it should be what you know and not who. The ability of humans to organize and meet out work is admirable rather than contemptable.

Obviously the PHB is an onerous cross to bear for the slashdot crowd - check which posts are highly moderated - and the idea that your skills are the only thing that matter is appealing in it's straightforward simplicity. But if databases or WANs or code are not simple, why should social life be? Indeed, the /. crowd obviously relishes the challenge that technology presents, but there are those who cannot stomach the challenge that being around other humans likewise puts forth.

And that's ok! Not everyone has to be good at everything - or even anything. But the idea that controlling an organization of people is less respectable than controlling an organization of logic gates is one that I can't quite come to believe.

Really, I don't believe that even the posters here actually desire to go around being skilled assholes to everyone they meet. I suspect that most of this reaction comes from not getting enough respect from the PHB and is sour grapes in return.

Either way, the hardcore position put forth in some posts advocating that we should be 100% skillful and 100% asshole is not the way to go. Just try not to be an asshole. Society will fall apart if everyone thinks they can go around telling off everyone they meet. Everyone has to function together if we're ever going to build utopia, colonize the stars, have a good game of AD&D or whatever.

Adam
Re:Yet another software cowboy by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-15 07:41 · Score: 0

That individual worth could somehow beat out nepotism and favortism.

This could've come straight out of a speech by John Edwards.

From his site:
"It's no coincidence that America is the most prosperous nation on Earth. Our country was founded on values like the honor of work, responsibility for our actions, and an equal opportunity for every American to build a better life for their children. We reject special privileges for the few and the empty promise of a free lunch."

MOD THIS TROLL DOWN by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 14:25 · Score: 0

moderators, if you still don't understand what a troll is, THIS IS IT. In fact, this is one of the WORST trolls I have read. I would even mark it as funny.

IT? by wmspringer · 2003-10-13 14:39 · Score: 1

Did anyone else read this as saying that the PHBs are being trained to use Segways?

--
Twenties Retirement

Sounds like a job for... by bobbozzo · 2003-10-13 14:56 · Score: 1

Sounds like a job for RatBert!

--
Nothing to see here; Move along.

`IT' Training by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 15:20 · Score: 0

They're learning to ride Segways...?

"foundering", not "floundering" by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 15:37 · Score: 0

I guess getting tutored in secret is better than just floundering in ignorance.

That should be "foundering", not "floundering".
A flounder is a fish.

Re:"foundering", not "floundering" by MZdoctor · 2003-10-13 20:49 · Score: 1

May I suggest looking both verbs up in a dictionary?

Avoid admitting weaknesses... by Wolfier · 2003-10-13 16:18 · Score: 1

And I always think the ability of admitting weaknesses is something that a good PHB should possess.

Guess I have to think again.

I call troll. (Obvously) by Tokerat · 2003-10-13 16:21 · Score: 1

Here is a list of reasons why:

Two-button mice work on a Mac. If it's really such a pain in the ass, go buy a damn $20 Logitech USB mouse, I did. The scroll wheel even works, no extra software required.
First off, it's the "ctrl" key you press with one button; the Apple key is used for menu-shortcut combinations, i.e. Apple-X for cut. How can you complain about something if you're not even sure of what you're talking about? Secondly, you dont need the keyboard at all. Click-and-hold for a moment, and the same thing happens. It's an arbitrarily long-enough amount of time as to not be confusing; if it happens it's most likely on purpose.
One hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard makes much more efficient use of the computer. Right clicking is for the weak. I learn the menu shortcuts and with a series of three quick button presses, while the rest of you are reading and dragging, sometimes missing that menu and having to do do it again. I can do anything I want in the Mac Finder, as well as other programs. It's almost like mouse gestures.
Apple tried to appeal to the steep learning curves of computers that keep people like your own PHB from knowing shit about them, including this day in age. Nothing confusing ever happens when you click a one-button mouse; it just clicks.
I wonder why one would keep an Ethernet card hardware address in any kind of case to begin with; surely the chip it has been encoded into is enough? So it's certain that ColorCase wouldnt' have them... In fact I'm confused at what this has to do with the discussion at hand?

And finally: Who gives a flying fuck? You obviously don't use a Mac, or want to, so what is the problem here? It's either jealousy or attention whoring, because as a W.I.N.Te.L. user, I can't comprehend how this applies to you at all?

And finally: If one way of doing things works, why do we need 20 different ways? That's a 20-option choice to make when you want to do something, 20 ways to make a mistake, 20 sections of code that could introduce bugs into the system, 20 times the bloat. Drag me an advantage from that list. Even if you're "smart enough to comprehend the different methods to do it, unlke 'MAC' users", (which I know you'll pull from your ass by the way) you still need to take the cognitive time to decide apon a method. It's these few precious seconds that add up over the day, while Mac users have sailed along through GUI heaven on to their next task.

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CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?

Remember OS/2? by freeze128 · 2003-10-13 16:33 · Score: 1

I remember the first time I ran OS/2... The first thing I wanted to do was EXIT, and I couldn't find it. I remember smacking my forehead sarcastically when I found out I had to right click on the desktop.... Sheesh! Some UI design!

For a serious response... by JKConsult · 2003-10-13 16:35 · Score: 1

You don't ALWAYS have the best solution, sure. But what the parent was saying is that "a little knowledge is a bad thing." If your boss is technically astute enough to be able to be a sounding board for some ideas, of course that's all fine and dandy. But if your boss thinks he's knowledgeable enough to be a sounding board, but isn't, that's neither fine nor dandy. That means that those little discussions you have in his office aren't you telling him what you plan on doing and either getting approval or disapproval, they're "brainstorming sessions" in which you have to explain yourself multiple times, try different analogies, and finally resort to blatant technical one-upmanship, whereby you start using terms that you know he doesn't know, just to get where you should have been a half-hour earlier. There's nothing with brainstorming and having someone play devil's advocate, but a bad advocate is just a nuisance. If these PHB's are actually getting a good, well-rounded insight into how the technical mind works, and actually thinking about it outside of their tutoring, then I say fantastic. But what's most likely to appear out of this is a bunch of bosses getting a "certification" and thinking that they know things they don't. And nobody wants that.

oops... by 00420 · 2003-10-13 16:36 · Score: 1

On the other hand, windows tends to be more friendly to non-memorization-based keyboard usage--particularly by letting you navigate the menus with arrow keys (push alt first).

...was the quote from the grandparent.

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Have you tried Linux yet?

Using FedEx.com is really hard by Animats · 2003-10-13 16:42 · Score: 1

Is FedEx.com still using that Java applet from hell that opens all those wierd ports, some of them inbound? Getting that to work from behind a firewall can be tough.

Re:slashdotters are equally clueless HEY!?!?! by freeze128 · 2003-10-13 16:49 · Score: 1

Is that Darl McBride making fun of us?

INCORRECT STATISTICAL LIE by xintegerx · 2003-10-13 17:24 · Score: 1

The correct statistic is that Americans on average spend more hours at work than employees of any other country do, on average.

I don't know what that has to do with productivity or what other statistic you were referring to. Maybe you even took the notion that since America has many self-made billionaires, then money-wise that's "productive" all across the board. Wrong.

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Cover your eyes and click this link!

Re:INCORRECT STATISTICAL LIE by 1lus10n · 2003-10-13 21:15 · Score: 1

so if you have no idea what im talking about how can you call me a liar ? why dont you do yourself a favor and do some Research first.

and dont assume shit, it makes you look like a moron.

--
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein

I'm sorry by Second+Vampyre · 2003-10-13 17:47 · Score: 0

Even with that pathetic kind of grovelling, I'm not moderating (positively, anyway) this pathetic excuse for a joke.

Yes I know... by sjbe · 2003-10-13 19:03 · Score: 1

You do know that the software happily handles mice with a kajillion buttons, they just ship with a single button mouse.

Yes, I know that. Not the point. The point is that I shouldn't have to buy another mouse due to some obsolete interface guideline. Simplicity is a virtue only if it makes things easier. I love Macs, but this is one interface idea I think they are dead wrong about.

Furthermore, while it is a minor limitation on a desktop machine where you can swap mice, it is a major inconvenience on a laptop. Good luck swapping your trackpad button. And no I'm not willing to lug around an external mouse. Defeats the whole point of a portable machine.

Also I cannot believe that Apple still does not ship most of its machines without some sort of mouse wheel device. Those are mandatory as far as I'm concerned. A mouse wheel even passed the mom test in my family. (believe me, that's saying a lot in this case) It makes things easier and doesn't confuse anyone.

Re:Yes I know... by Bob+Uhl · 2003-10-14 09:45 · Score: 1

Ugh--I loathe wheel mice. Don't see the point, myself. It's nearly impossible to get a real mouse these days (I don't wish to even see the loathsome wheel).
Now, give me a three-button mouse. That's where it's really at. Left for manipulation, right for actions, middle to paste. That makes life very nice indeed.

No Excuse by LuYu · 2003-10-13 19:49 · Score: 1

"When they find out they're not the only ones, it's like this weight has been lifted off their shoulders and they say, 'Really? I'm not the only one who doesn't know what the two mouse buttons are for?"'

Lack of exclusivity does not excuse stupidity.

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All data is speech. All speech is Free.

Education, not training by leandrod · 2003-10-13 20:13 · Score: 1

I want for my managers the same I want for my colleagues and subordinates: education, not training. I want them to get the concepts so that we can have intelligent discussions on solutions, not that they dumbly memorise specific tools that will change sooner than later.

--
Leandro GuimarÃ£es Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin

Sad by clambake · 2003-10-13 22:50 · Score: 1

Why wasn't the first thought to just promote those who DO have the skills they need?

Re:Sad by SharpFang · 2003-10-14 04:14 · Score: 1

Those who decide about promotion surely won't endanger their positions by promoting people that on right places, by contrast, would show how much better they are.

"When talking to high rank executive, an employee should take a meek and miserable posture, so the executive wouldn't feel confused with employee's knowledge." -- part of official clerk instruction in royal Austria (end of XIX Century)

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45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2

I don't trust them by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 23:39 · Score: 0

I don't trust that they can maintain confidentiality of their customers... Just look what they did to poor Mr. Gene Brown!

Coundn't use email by basingwerk · 2003-10-13 23:52 · Score: 0

I used to work as a quality manager in a software house. The owner had no computer and could not read emails. He had his secretary print them out for him. Lack of even basic computer knowledge meant that it was impossible to discuss version control, product management or test/release processes etc. It was sad. He thought it was great and boasted about it. But the customer suffered from the bad quality releases, and the poor performance. My view: these guys have to get up to date somehow, and if they can't, business should sack them for the sake of the shareholders, and hire me instead.

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I stole this .sig

The reason PHBs don't have computer information by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-14 00:58 · Score: 0

D&D takes place in a technologically primitive era. That deficiency is offset by the existence and availability of magic!

What's changed? by TheTick · 2003-10-14 01:02 · Score: 1

20 years ago, executives didn't sneak around looking for touch-typing courses so they could operate an IBM Selectric without help from their secretaries. Why the insecurity now?

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bachiatari na torisetsu o yome!

Perhaps because... by gatkinso · 2003-10-14 01:21 · Score: 1

...20 years ago they weren't making decisions about typewriters and typing.

An IT manager who knows next to nothing about IT, but is making all of the decisions for the department... I can see why they would want to hide their ignorance.

--
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.

Re:Perhaps because... by TheTick · 2003-10-14 05:01 · Score: 1

...But the article wasn't strictly about IT management, but executives in general. I suppose you could argue that there is intersection between any modern business unit and IT, but 20+ years ago, IT was typewriters, file cabinets, and document retention policies, so the same argument could be applied to that model.

Arguably, the rank-and-file manager (to coin a phrase) was not interested in those things. Secretaries were specially trained (e.g., through dedicated secretarial schools) to handle things like typing and filing, and archivists to manage documents, precisely so the honcho wouldn't have to twiddle with the nuts and bolts and could get on with what we now call knowledge work and strategizing.

I'm not necessarily saying that the old way is better. I do, however, wonder what forces have caused the culture to change.
<tongueincheek>I suspect it happened when one could play solitaire on one's typewriter.</tongueincheek>

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bachiatari na torisetsu o yome!

Beware the stupid, hardworking man... by iendedi · 2003-10-14 01:30 · Score: 1

No. Floundering in ignorance is much less destructive than "a little knowledge"

Absolutely true. There are only two cases that have merit; (A) Boss is a pro and deserves respect / knows what he/she is talking about, (B) Boss has expertise in something else and leaves tech to those who understand it. Any other case is useless.

A great general once said: There are 4 types of people in the world. There are stupid, lazy people... These are useful and common and make up your footsoldiers... There are smart and hardworking people... These are rare and indispensible, these are your lieutenants... There are smart and lazy people, like me, these are you thinkers, your generals... But beware the 4th type, the supid and hardworking, who are sometimes difficult to detect and distinguish from the smart and hardworking, for their hard-work may deceive you... These people are forces of natural destruction and will certainly spell out your doom.

It is an unfortunate reality that most PHB's fall into the last category...

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It is your personal duty to fight for what is right on a daily basis. Ignoring injustice is identical to approving

Have fun with it! by iendedi · 2003-10-14 01:47 · Score: 1

What really ticks me (us?) off is being ignored when we I know a better way, or being over-ruled because he doesn't understand some basic concept. (like IP addressing, hardware interaction, RAID levels, or software security).

Heh... There is a little trick I used to use to get by when I found myself working for one of those "I know better than you, oops, is that my thumb up my ass" types... You might want to try this:

These guys want to be involved. They think it is their job to make decisions and they really believe that because they are above you in some org chart, they are your mental superior (yes, they do believe it). So, let them.... Here is how:

Every time he/she wants to know what you are working on, tell the truth. Similarly, when they want to know how far along you are, tell the truth (of couse pad it, because there are always unforseen circumstances, and they will never understand that something is hard, only that you didn't meet deadlines). However, when they want to know details, make them up. Completely. Depending on how stupid your PHB is, tell them about VB problems when you are working in Java. Or give them a classic Computer Science problem to chew on that has nothing to do with what you are working on.

Keep doing this, make sure you can talk competently about your fake problem, and always take their advice and string them along... Change problems from time to time so that they think you are making progress and always give them credit for helping you fix these (made up) problems. Meet your milestones and keep moving on.

Here is what you get out of it: (A) PHB will love you. You keep them involved and give them credit. (B) PHB will show his idiocy to his peers when he talks about the problems he is solving and his tutoring, helping of poor you... Generally, only competent people will get the joke anyway, so you are safe - all the other PHB's will respect your PHB even more... It makes for really good laughs and doesn't hurt a soul...

Think this is cruel? If so, you may qualify for the PHB position... In truth, it is a very balanced approach to dealing with incompetent leadership... I did this for years and it actually reduced tension in the workpace and helped everyone with their morale... In some ways, it's like making subtle adult jokes in front of children - they never get it, never could and that's cool... You get to have a little fun and are being kind to them for not rubbing it in their faces. Just remember, the depth that you are swimming in is truly unfathomable to these people - if they had any idea how complex the work you did really was, it may drive them insane.

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It is your personal duty to fight for what is right on a daily basis. Ignoring injustice is identical to approving

Sigh... by martingunnarsson · 2003-10-14 02:32 · Score: 1

Why does everybody have to pretend they are something they aren't? My boss asks me for help all the time, and he's not ashamed about that. He's very good at what he does, and that's the only reason he was hired in the first place. Noone thinks he's a bad person because he doesn't know how to move a file from a folder to another.

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Martin

Agreed on all counts. by autechre · 2003-10-14 02:32 · Score: 1

How To Win Friends and Influence people is an excellent book. I recommend it to anyone. I will admit that its effect on me was a bit warped; I still have an attitude problem, but now I express it in a way that makes people laugh. :)

You're right about the academic environment, too. I know that I can't escape the politics by working here; far from it. You basically have to ask yourself if you are more comfortable with people stepping on each other for appearances or money. Personally, as long as I can pretty much keep myself out of it and work out solutions that I find acceptable, I'm OK in a university setting, and my OSS leanings are more appreciated.

--
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.

Re:Agreed on all counts. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-14 04:27 · Score: 0

Now I'm completely depressed because people have modded the post to which I replied up to +4 Insightful. I know this is just /. and I'm not supposed to care :-) However, the moderation system is supposed to make the cream rise to the top, but all too often it's the turds that float to the top. People have modded up an endorsement of primadonna-ship and a sure way to make yourself unemployed when the crunch comes as insightful. I, in turn, have just been given a better insight as to why so many people in IT are unemployed for 6 - 12 months these days, yet I just returned from nine years of living abroad and had to find a job. Three months to the day after I stepped off the plane, I was at my brand new desk with a brand new computer, working at a company that is the leader in its field. My technical background mattered, of course, but so did people skills.

Ah, well, let them mod that stuff up. The more they do it, the more secure my job is :-))

Acaddemia/research free of hypocrisy by r_j_howell · 2003-10-14 03:49 · Score: 1

>I would much rather not pretend to empathize with
>such people.
>And it is just this reason that I would prefer to
>be in an academic or research environment. At least
>its mostly free of this hypocritic attitude.
Excuse me for just a moment.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Hee-Hee-Hee. -Wipes away a tear-.
Ahem.

Yeah. That's a great idea. Go into Academia and research because there is so much LESS politics involved. -snort- (excuse me, must be this cold)

Enjoy!

admission of "weakness" by 4of12 · 2003-10-14 04:45 · Score: 1

Any PHB that is afraid of "looking weak or unknowlegeable" is an inferior manager.

Really good managers recognize who their experts are and aren't afraid to solicit the opinions of people that spend all their time keeping up to speed in some area of technology. My boss doesn't know what I know, but I recognize that, he recognizes that, and I don't deride him for not knowing technical details. I count on him to be intelligent enough to learn enough to judge situations that include technology and people.

Really good managers also have the ability to recognize when "an expert" is just blowing smoke. Before committing to some significant course of action, they'll check with multiple experts to make sure they're getting the right overall picture.

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"Provided by the management for your protection."

Mod parent up. PHB tech insecurity run amok! by Retired+Replicant · 2003-10-14 05:47 · Score: 1

I feel bad for your friend. He's probably better off not working in such an environment of incompetence and scapegoating.

Re:That's nothing like the truth by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-14 05:55 · Score: 0

If you work in the US you have to pay taxes, H or L visa or not.

Foreign workers are generally cheaper because they demand less salary. Your assertion that foreign workers are cheaper because your government is more expensive is ridiculous.

I agree that many companies abuse the H1-B system, but "no qualified workers" has always meant "no qualified workers that we can afford." It has always been about cost. If you're going to pay $1M per developer, suddenly, there are some qualified workers.

There is a price at which you will be hired back. It just might not be a price you like.

Hmm, maybe if we build some roads we can inflate our way out of this.

Meaning of PHB by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-14 07:14 · Score: 0

PHB=Pendulous Heavy Breasts.

No! by turgid · 2003-10-14 07:17 · Score: 1

This is our last bastion of conotrol, superiority if you will! As soon as you educate the PHBs our whole source of income evapourates! Keep 'em dumb using the language they (think they) understand.

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Stick Men

IT staff as teachers?! by Invisible+Agent · 2003-10-14 07:31 · Score: 1

"...PHBs...won't seek any training from their own IT staff because that would be an admission of 'weakness'"..."

This story is a load of crap. "Training" from IT staff? In what exactly? Like how to use Excel? I've never worked for any company where IT staff teach detailed computer skills (beyond those specific to their network/desktop environment), nor would I consider the IT people I've worked with - who are very good at their actual jobs - to be great teachers.

If a bunch of managers are taking computer classes on their own time, this is a great thing. To assume this means they're afraid to "admit weakness" is just asinine.

I have seen companies offer courses taught by outsiders (in stuff like 'Using Lotus Notes'), and those kind of classes are very well attended by managers.

--

Invisible Agent
This post is a mirror; when a monkey stares in, no hacker gazes out.

TROLLS UNITE! by puzzled · 2003-10-14 08:24 · Score: 1

I'm amazed at the response this post received. This is the first time I've ever been labeled 'troll' and its still moderated to a +4. I must have touched a nerve.

The whole point is that these executives are taking the time to learn things, which is refreshing.

And I attend (and present at times) the local linux users group meetings - I *know* what ya'll look like when not under female supervision :-)

--
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo

when is ripping the same as burning? by Recbo · 2003-10-14 09:25 · Score: 1

When a PCB has to ask what an MP3 device is, still ripping cd's "After All These Years" to burn more while not knowing what what his children are using to play MP3's is tantamount to book-burning. Guilty!

It's also called "Reeling In The Years", "Revolver", going in circles i.e. 78 rpm 45 rpm 33-1/3 rpm then reeling cd's, still rotating on their thumbs for fear of getting out of orbit and falling off the edge of the 2D earth...hence ripping cd's to burn cd's while not knowing what an MP3 device is, equivocates to book-burning.

And PHB's got so many phd's.

and business deals aren't respectable? by Stu+Charlton · 2003-10-14 10:20 · Score: 1

The diverse knowledge and political knowhow required to make any large organization undertake any major changes is at least as complex as building a distributed system with several hundred thousand lines of code. Management is still largely a liberal art (despite what the quantitative-obsessed MBA hordes may think).

There are lots of incompetent programmers; there are lots of incompetent executives and management consultants. But in both categories there are those that can do truly amazing things.

Certainly it's unfortunate that we don't always value expert technical achievement (this has been changing in pockets here and there), but it doesn't take away from the ability of these executives.

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-Stu

Re:and business deals aren't respectable? by Dirtside · 2003-10-15 09:28 · Score: 1

This is fair. I was sort of projecting what I believe to be the crux of the geek's dislike for management types. I know that I believe in what I said, to a degree. And I do understand that there are skills involved in doing business -- if there weren't, we wouldn't have managers, because geeks could do everything ;)

--
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased

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