How many holes in wu-ftpd do you need before that rings empty?
I don't know. Let's look at sendmail. WOAH!! Every release since 2.0 butONE had a security fix. Now lets take a poll. (If you are not a FI don't take this poll) Do you use sendmail?
100% No
0% Yes
Knowing that alot of people still use sendmail, we can conludes there are a lot of FI's and sendmail is a piece of crap, hey sorta like wu-ftpd!!
black = dmz
blue = firewall uplink
yellow = frontend servers
purple = backend servers
white = office server
green = ofiice clients
red = firelink net
gray = serial console net
Re:From A Business Perspective, It Makes Sense
on
Broadband Crackdown
·
· Score: 1
Or, gee, maybe they could write a script -- detect, block and send an email notification.
Bet you're management.
Yep, he is management and I bet when he read your comment, he was thinking:
That would take a dozen high paid coders, a month of testing, and approvals from two dozen people. That would be a nightmare! how would you manage all the resouces?! How would you track it? Just block port 80, that will only take two people, one change request, and I can sing the approval. If we lose anybody, WE CAN BLAME PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT!
Of course he has no idea how a firewall and a ldap/database servers might work with a little bit of planning and willingness to do something new.
Well, let's see here. Earthlink uses Covad. Earthlink is owned by Sprint. Earthlink won't goes under, either will Sprint. Both of them have tons and tons of money. If Covad goes under who do you think will step in and buy Covad? If not Earthlinkg or Sprint, then a parternship of the ISP's. And if no one buys covad, the governemtn will step in and give covad to somebody for pocket change.
If you want to host servers at host there is only one real choice out there, and that's SpeakEasy. Oh, don't take my word for it, read the Terms of Service. It says:
Personal Web Page Restrictions:
We believe in the right of the individual to publish information that they feel is important to the world via the Internet. Unlike many ISP's we do allow you to run a server (web, mail, etc.) over your DSL line.
It really can't be as simple as the quote suggests.
Sure it is. Free Speech and the 1st amendment was created for this very reason. Free Speech is about protecting unpopular speech not popular speech, which doesn't need protection. What can be more unpopular to the people in control then saying they suck?
If we were working on the carnivore project, we would careless what the guy in the other state is doing, but if the hghups could find out dirt from someone they didn't like, what will stop us from using the carnivore system we are working on? The law? They are the law.
There is some good in everything evil, it's a matter of how much evil we are willing to stand. Naturaly the internet is not a secure place, and the fools that bitch about privacies is just covering up the real issues of freedom. You don't post your medical history at the front door of your house, but maybe you to wash your car in the drive. The freedom issue is being able to do what you want, not keeping people from see what you don't want them know.
Say the government decides that, well, there can be no anit-government websites. Or a little less extreme, something you like to do now that might be a little if-if. For me, that would be, oh, music and software. With cranivore they can easily detect these new crimal actions. Now we have the government limiting information becuase they think we shouldn't have and not for the good reason of protecting us from srcipt kiddies DoS and altering attacks.
Today it may be a DoS attack, tomorrow it will be your freedom. Personaly, I rather defend myself, then let the government say what is best for me by limiting my freedoms of choose, and that is what scares me about the cranivore systems. Every single time that government tried something for the protection of it's people, it has truned around to be used in a way to increase the power of government and distroy the freedom of people it was designed to protect or provide for. Examples: welfare, civil rights, income taxes, Social Secuirty, Medical Care, Education, and many more.
You miss the point, as well. The government is owned by people, too. (Unless you think it is owned by aliens or something.) Just a lot more people. Each one of us. Corporations abuse us just as badly, just in different ways and for different goals.
Corporations don't abuse us. We abuse oursleves by keep buying thier products. Government abuse us by forcing it's will on to us.
People own Corporations more so the Government. As a stock owner and a consumer, I have say on what a corp does. If I doesn't like what a company does, I don't have to buy thier products. I can support someone else. I'm not a slave to a Corporations.
However with Government, I am a slave to them. If I don't pay my taxes, they will take everything from me. I can vote, but I'm one of 280 millions, but I'm still a slave to government will.
If a corp has data of me, it doesn't hurt me to much. However, with the long arm of Government, who know what they will do with it. hell they might break my door down for the hell of it becuase I have an extra grand to buy a laptop and they want to know where that money came from!! Not to mention, I'm paying them to do this, and I can't do anything about but cast my one vote.
The scare thing is a majority of Americans think government should be able to reach farther into thier private life. They think government should have this power so that they can feel safe from pornographers and drug dealers. To paraphrase a famous quotation: A nation that values security over freedom will soon have neither. We're headed down that slippery slope...and we may not be able to turn back.
If anyone believe the apologize bs for one second, you're full of it. If you connects the dots and look at histroy you will see the US blowing an embassy up, the US forcing Isarel to stop selling China the very some stuff that was on the EP-3E, and China walking over the US for the last eight years. Did you forget about China selling nuke tech? Or buying off Slick Willy. Oh, don't forget for a minute about the U.S. selling Taiwan missles, ships, planes, etc... Naw, non of that piss China off. They just want the U.S. to say sorry for being in the way.
Now think, does China gives a hoot about the apologize?? Yeah! Of course they do! Just like they gave a hoot when they kill millions sitting a square. Just like they give hoot about childern in sweat shops. Or inslaving thier own people. Oh yeah, they want that apologize..... to make the US look like a bunch of weak fools.
I see it like this. I have a radio. Joe want my radio. One day, I hit him with my car one day, I didn't mean it. Sorry man, didn't mean it. Just the other day I was in his hood, walking the public street, listening to anything that came by with my radio. Then Joe notice me and hit me over the head, took my boots, and my radio. Now he calls me on the phone and tells me:
"If you want your boots back, say sorry for being on my street and forcing me to beat you over the head. Oh, I'm keeping your radio."
They had it all. Everything from a generic American mother saying, in a deadpan face and a concerned voice "I'd never let my teenager use an unprotected celluar phone!" to a really scientific test where they held a cel phone up to a monitor and showed how it made the monitor shake. Then they put one of their magical filters on the phone, and showed how the monitor didn't shake anymore. Riiiiiiight. They must have that special Gauss-model phone that wasn't available when I went shopping for my PCS phone (Which doesn't, for the record, make my monitor shake)
Here at work I'm stuck in the "server room" with very limited space. My "desk" is a 19 inch rack mounted shelf with a small 14 inch monitor sitting on it. The useable space is about 6*19. When sitting down I put my cell phone on the shelf. It's rather cool to see the monitor shake when I recieve a phone call, but that's the only time when the rads interfears with the monitor. With normal talking there is very little or no monitor shaking. To go along with the story, just don't have the phone by your ear when it rings.
Although the whiney open-source `advocates' who don't understand the concept of value-added might complain about the sticker price, when you're looking at salaries in the 80K/yr. range for experts on the subject, paying 2K for a year of support ends up making a lot of sense.
But with the 80k/yr you get more then just LVS support and setup, you get a person in the office that know what is going on.
If a you needed to make a change would you rather call someone then have them "glide" your 30k/yr network monkey through the process, or have red hat ssh into the machine to make changes, or wait a few hours/days to have someone come and make changes, or tell the 80k/yr to make changes and have it done in 10 minutes and be over with it?
If you have something on your network, your better the SysAdmin know how to use it.
That prefectly well, but the Joint Chief of Staff know something about training marines, and he has people that train marines, doesn't mean they go to the France to find out how to train marines.
Nobody knows the product like the manufacturer.
Getting back on subject, we are not talking about advance software here, we're talking about a simple packet switcher called LVS. In another post I said I would buy support from manufacturer, and I have bought support. I love tech support some times, even if it takes 45 minutes to get to the answer, but red hat isn't selling support for "advance software", LVS is a simple packet switcher. Read the code.
a) Bob knows Legato cold, Rachel doesn't. If it bombs on Rachel's shift and Bob is at the cabin/serving his weekend time there's a serious problem.
Isn't that the point of fail over so Rachel doesn't have to panic? Not being forced to call tech support becuase the failover, failed to failover, or failover fell over dead and took down the whole network?
I'm guessing it would take me a month or more to set up a high availability server. The second time I might be able to cut it down to a week. I don't think there are nearly as many gurus out there as you think.
If you ever setup a LVS server such as the one RedHat has, you would find out it's not that hard and doesn't take that much time. I setup my first LVS server in two days, and now have scripts that can set it up in a few seconds, and I read and understand the source code, no I can't recite it, but I understand it.
The last sys admin where I work now left because he got a better offer, but there are a lot of things in the system (cron jobs that fail every night; a web server named "mail", a mail server named "bkp") that make me [think] he probably wouldn't be able to set up failover very easily.
If someone can't get thier host name setup right, they would be lucky to have reverse lookup working right with classless subdomains, let alone the dealing with the ARP'ing problem in a LVS cluster.
If you think about it, though, if you hire someone who could do this right, you'll probably be paying them about $50/hr as an employee, $75+ as a contractor. Figure a week to set it up, and that's $2000-$3000. And no support.
Woah, I could be making 100k!? KICKING CHICKEN!
Anyways, it may be hard to find good people, becuase good people are self teacher, have pride, won't put up with crap, and have wierd a past. What ends up happening is being forced to hire someone below the means and paying out the nose for them, becuase people are willing to do so. The only way you get good people is either 1) they just left thier crappy position and you are lucky enough to find thier resume on dice.com, or 2) you steal them from a company.
No one that really know what they are doing can be hired on the spot, do the job, then tossed aside in a week, and expected to have preformed good work. It takes a souless, brain person to put up with that sort of treatment. If that's a hiring manager has that sort of toss-aside way of thinking then they better get tech support becuase they are going to need it!!
I'm thinking, what percentage of Linux users could do something as simple as have find delete all file in the home directory that hadn't been accessed in more than 90 days?
Would you like it in bash? korn? perl? C? Java? Python? A Gnome front end?
MarNuke
Not your everyday Linux Zealot, but superhuman Linux Zealot today, YEAH BABY!
The bottom line is, if you think you're smart enough that you don't need that expensive contract you're too dumb to admin a network.
Most of the time, I adgree, on this subject, I can't. If you don't know enough about something, you shouldn't be working on it and if you don't, you get someone that does. If a company doesn't want to pay someone 60k-120k to understand everything there is on their network, sure "tech support" is great. But a service plan in not the same as tech support.
With a service plan, which I would buy you get hardware support, on-site support, and replacement parts. Things like that is a life saver!
But if my boss is going to pay 2k software "tech support" for something I can read the source and understand fully myself, and I'm also getting 60k, then what the whole idea for me being there? Shouldn't I know everything about this? Wouldn't it make me a better SysAdmin if I knew how it work? Yes, it would. If i didn't know EVERYTHING about the network/subnet/domain/node, then I wouldn't be the SysAdmin, I would be the network monkey. I feel that as the SysAdmin it's my duty to know everything about everything on my network. If I know only a little bit about something, that make me less of the admin and more of the monkey.
Now if I can't find the answer and the only answer I can get is by tech support (iPlanet comes to mind), then, well I guess I have to buy it, if I want to run that software.
For a business or organization, $2000 really isn't that much, especially when it gives management the right to point the finger at another company when something goes wrong...hence the importance of "Tech Support".
LVS isn't that hard. It's one of them things that is made to seam a lot harder then it really is. I was able to set it up the router part in a haft day, the mon and fail over the another day and a haft, and then I wrote scripts to do everything again on other servers the second night without losing sleep.
I spent about 18 hours on the whole project. At 60k a year I get about $30 an hour. It cost my company $540 to pay me to set it up, 1/4 of "Tech Support". When ever someone needs to ask a question about LVS, they can simply walk into my office (the server room), and ask a question about it, they can get a answer in less then 5 minutes instead of being on hold for 45 minutes. Which would save about $20 in labor cost. Not to mention, since I set it up, read the source, and then wrote scripts to set it up again, I know (or at least should know) everything about my company setup, so I would be the better person to ask then someone my company has never meet, and see us as a SQL database entry.
Of course it's easier to sue or point finger at "Tech Support" then spend the money and time to hire and let a highly talented UNIX geek teach him self a way of fail overing.
What it comes down to is, do you hire a "geek kid wizard" to run your network, or have some guy on a phone assist your "engineer"?
Marnuke I already paid for the hardware, the bandwidth, the guy to run it, the guys to write my software, lience to use thier software, and you expect me to pay for the os?
Slashdot Mirror
i wasn't going over board...
Something that has SCSI u160 and dual chips...
CPU Athlon MP 1.2GHZ $185
Motherboard Tyan S2510 $495
Memory 256 megs PC21000 ECC $57
Hard Drive IBM 18g SCSI Ultra160 $400
CDRW 16x10x40x $87.00
DVD 16x $49.00
ELSA GLADIAC 920 $359.00
Sound SbLive Value $43.00
Floppy Generic $10.00
Case SUPERMICRO CSE-044 $209.00
Cooling Vanteck CKK $31
Price* $2333
You know I tired this crack but it didn't work.
Do you think it would help if my router wasn't shoved up your ass side ways?
I don't know. Let's look at sendmail. WOAH!! Every release since 2.0 but ONE had a security fix. Now lets take a poll. (If you are not a FI don't take this poll) Do you use sendmail?
100% No
0% Yes
Knowing that alot of people still use sendmail, we can conludes there are a lot of FI's and sendmail is a piece of crap, hey sorta like wu-ftpd!!
black = dmz
blue = firewall uplink
yellow = frontend servers
purple = backend servers
white = office server
green = ofiice clients
red = firelink net
gray = serial console net
no i use OpenBSD becuase it's secure
Bet you're management.
Yep, he is management and I bet when he read your comment, he was thinking:
That would take a dozen high paid coders, a month of testing, and approvals from two dozen people. That would be a nightmare! how would you manage all the resouces?! How would you track it? Just block port 80, that will only take two people, one change request, and I can sing the approval. If we lose anybody, WE CAN BLAME PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT!
Of course he has no idea how a firewall and a ldap/database servers might work with a little bit of planning and willingness to do something new.
Well, let's see here. Earthlink uses Covad. Earthlink is owned by Sprint. Earthlink won't goes under, either will Sprint. Both of them have tons and tons of money. If Covad goes under who do you think will step in and buy Covad? If not Earthlinkg or Sprint, then a parternship of the ISP's. And if no one buys covad, the governemtn will step in and give covad to somebody for pocket change.
fuck it. I'll still run OpenBSD as my firewalls, name, and ftp server.
Now he can just walk right in with his own gun, steal what ever he like, rape the wife, all without a fear of being shot killed.
You haven't been on /. for very long have you?
Sure it is. Free Speech and the 1st amendment was created for this very reason. Free Speech is about protecting unpopular speech not popular speech, which doesn't need protection. What can be more unpopular to the people in control then saying they suck?
There is some good in everything evil, it's a matter of how much evil we are willing to stand. Naturaly the internet is not a secure place, and the fools that bitch about privacies is just covering up the real issues of freedom. You don't post your medical history at the front door of your house, but maybe you to wash your car in the drive. The freedom issue is being able to do what you want, not keeping people from see what you don't want them know.
Say the government decides that, well, there can be no anit-government websites. Or a little less extreme, something you like to do now that might be a little if-if. For me, that would be, oh, music and software. With cranivore they can easily detect these new crimal actions. Now we have the government limiting information becuase they think we shouldn't have and not for the good reason of protecting us from srcipt kiddies DoS and altering attacks.
Today it may be a DoS attack, tomorrow it will be your freedom. Personaly, I rather defend myself, then let the government say what is best for me by limiting my freedoms of choose, and that is what scares me about the cranivore systems. Every single time that government tried something for the protection of it's people, it has truned around to be used in a way to increase the power of government and distroy the freedom of people it was designed to protect or provide for. Examples: welfare, civil rights, income taxes, Social Secuirty, Medical Care, Education, and many more.
Corporations don't abuse us. We abuse oursleves by keep buying thier products. Government abuse us by forcing it's will on to us.
People own Corporations more so the Government. As a stock owner and a consumer, I have say on what a corp does. If I doesn't like what a company does, I don't have to buy thier products. I can support someone else. I'm not a slave to a Corporations.
However with Government, I am a slave to them. If I don't pay my taxes, they will take everything from me. I can vote, but I'm one of 280 millions, but I'm still a slave to government will.
If a corp has data of me, it doesn't hurt me to much. However, with the long arm of Government, who know what they will do with it. hell they might break my door down for the hell of it becuase I have an extra grand to buy a laptop and they want to know where that money came from!! Not to mention, I'm paying them to do this, and I can't do anything about but cast my one vote.
The scare thing is a majority of Americans think government should be able to reach farther into thier private life. They think government should have this power so that they can feel safe from pornographers and drug dealers. To paraphrase a famous quotation: A nation that values security over freedom will soon have neither. We're headed down that slippery slope...and we may not be able to turn back.
MarNuke
Now think, does China gives a hoot about the apologize?? Yeah! Of course they do! Just like they gave a hoot when they kill millions sitting a square. Just like they give hoot about childern in sweat shops. Or inslaving thier own people. Oh yeah, they want that apologize..... to make the US look like a bunch of weak fools.
I see it like this. I have a radio. Joe want my radio. One day, I hit him with my car one day, I didn't mean it. Sorry man, didn't mean it. Just the other day I was in his hood, walking the public street, listening to anything that came by with my radio. Then Joe notice me and hit me over the head, took my boots, and my radio. Now he calls me on the phone and tells me:
"If you want your boots back, say sorry for being on my street and forcing me to beat you over the head. Oh, I'm keeping your radio."
MarNuke
Here at work I'm stuck in the "server room" with very limited space. My "desk" is a 19 inch rack mounted shelf with a small 14 inch monitor sitting on it. The useable space is about 6*19. When sitting down I put my cell phone on the shelf. It's rather cool to see the monitor shake when I recieve a phone call, but that's the only time when the rads interfears with the monitor. With normal talking there is very little or no monitor shaking. To go along with the story, just don't have the phone by your ear when it rings.
MarNuke
But with the 80k/yr you get more then just LVS support and setup, you get a person in the office that know what is going on.
If a you needed to make a change would you rather call someone then have them "glide" your 30k/yr network monkey through the process, or have red hat ssh into the machine to make changes, or wait a few hours/days to have someone come and make changes, or tell the 80k/yr to make changes and have it done in 10 minutes and be over with it?
If you have something on your network, your better the SysAdmin know how to use it.
MarNuke
That prefectly well, but the Joint Chief of Staff know something about training marines, and he has people that train marines, doesn't mean they go to the France to find out how to train marines.
Nobody knows the product like the manufacturer.
Getting back on subject, we are not talking about advance software here, we're talking about a simple packet switcher called LVS. In another post I said I would buy support from manufacturer, and I have bought support. I love tech support some times, even if it takes 45 minutes to get to the answer, but red hat isn't selling support for "advance software", LVS is a simple packet switcher. Read the code.
a) Bob knows Legato cold, Rachel doesn't. If it bombs on Rachel's shift and Bob is at the cabin/serving his weekend time there's a serious problem.
Isn't that the point of fail over so Rachel doesn't have to panic? Not being forced to call tech support becuase the failover, failed to failover, or failover fell over dead and took down the whole network?
MarNuke
just a guess
If you ever setup a LVS server such as the one RedHat has, you would find out it's not that hard and doesn't take that much time. I setup my first LVS server in two days, and now have scripts that can set it up in a few seconds, and I read and understand the source code, no I can't recite it, but I understand it.
The last sys admin where I work now left because he got a better offer, but there are a lot of things in the system (cron jobs that fail every night; a web server named "mail", a mail server named "bkp") that make me [think] he probably wouldn't be able to set up failover very easily.
If someone can't get thier host name setup right, they would be lucky to have reverse lookup working right with classless subdomains, let alone the dealing with the ARP'ing problem in a LVS cluster.
If you think about it, though, if you hire someone who could do this right, you'll probably be paying them about $50/hr as an employee, $75+ as a contractor. Figure a week to set it up, and that's $2000-$3000. And no support.
Woah, I could be making 100k!? KICKING CHICKEN!
Anyways, it may be hard to find good people, becuase good people are self teacher, have pride, won't put up with crap, and have wierd a past. What ends up happening is being forced to hire someone below the means and paying out the nose for them, becuase people are willing to do so. The only way you get good people is either 1) they just left thier crappy position and you are lucky enough to find thier resume on dice.com, or 2) you steal them from a company.
No one that really know what they are doing can be hired on the spot, do the job, then tossed aside in a week, and expected to have preformed good work. It takes a souless, brain person to put up with that sort of treatment. If that's a hiring manager has that sort of toss-aside way of thinking then they better get tech support becuase they are going to need it!!
I'm thinking, what percentage of Linux users could do something as simple as have find delete all file in the home directory that hadn't been accessed in more than 90 days?
Would you like it in bash? korn? perl? C? Java? Python? A Gnome front end?
MarNuke
Not your everyday Linux Zealot, but superhuman Linux Zealot today, YEAH BABY!
Most of the time, I adgree, on this subject, I can't. If you don't know enough about something, you shouldn't be working on it and if you don't, you get someone that does. If a company doesn't want to pay someone 60k-120k to understand everything there is on their network, sure "tech support" is great. But a service plan in not the same as tech support.
With a service plan, which I would buy you get hardware support, on-site support, and replacement parts. Things like that is a life saver!
But if my boss is going to pay 2k software "tech support" for something I can read the source and understand fully myself, and I'm also getting 60k, then what the whole idea for me being there? Shouldn't I know everything about this? Wouldn't it make me a better SysAdmin if I knew how it work? Yes, it would. If i didn't know EVERYTHING about the network/subnet/domain/node, then I wouldn't be the SysAdmin, I would be the network monkey. I feel that as the SysAdmin it's my duty to know everything about everything on my network. If I know only a little bit about something, that make me less of the admin and more of the monkey.
Now if I can't find the answer and the only answer I can get is by tech support (iPlanet comes to mind), then, well I guess I have to buy it, if I want to run that software.
Not really a flame, just the truth.
MarNuke
LVS isn't that hard. It's one of them things that is made to seam a lot harder then it really is. I was able to set it up the router part in a haft day, the mon and fail over the another day and a haft, and then I wrote scripts to do everything again on other servers the second night without losing sleep.
I spent about 18 hours on the whole project. At 60k a year I get about $30 an hour. It cost my company $540 to pay me to set it up, 1/4 of "Tech Support". When ever someone needs to ask a question about LVS, they can simply walk into my office (the server room), and ask a question about it, they can get a answer in less then 5 minutes instead of being on hold for 45 minutes. Which would save about $20 in labor cost. Not to mention, since I set it up, read the source, and then wrote scripts to set it up again, I know (or at least should know) everything about my company setup, so I would be the better person to ask then someone my company has never meet, and see us as a SQL database entry.
Of course it's easier to sue or point finger at "Tech Support" then spend the money and time to hire and let a highly talented UNIX geek teach him self a way of fail overing.
What it comes down to is, do you hire a "geek kid wizard" to run your network, or have some guy on a phone assist your "engineer"?
MarNuke
...where's the free version?
Marnuke
I already paid for the hardware, the bandwidth, the guy to run it, the guys to write my software, lience to use thier software, and you expect me to pay for the os?