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Hyperreality: The U.S-China Standoff
"U.S. and China Look for a Way to Say 'Sorry'," was the striking headline on The New York Times front page Monday. Some of the world's most senior diplomats have been fussing for days over how to phrase sentences in English and Chinese that will stroke both nation's egos, even though no sane person could believe anybody meant this incident to happen. The sticking point is China's public demand for an apology -- "dao qian," a legalistic and formal verbal idea that dates back to its imperial past.
Second to none when it comes to macho military posturing, the U.S. can't say it's sorry for the accident and bring everybody home. Various grim-faced U.S. officials, from the President and Vice-President to the Secretary of State, have been rushing around in their big black limos, and issued guarded expressions of concern and sadness, but nobody can quite bring himself to say the magic words.
Maybe these people could get on IRC and flame each other, then apologize and sort the whole thing out. Think of the money that would be saved.
If anything highlights some of the bankrupt, outmoded practices of the nation-state, and also the reason we will never be so lucky as to see it wither away, it's this incident -- taken quite seriously by the popular media, whose talk shows are full of soundbite-spouting eggheads, military experts and grave government spin doctors.
This all makes Jerry Everard, author of Virtual States: The Internet and the Boundaries of the Nation-State look prescient. In his book, published last year by Routledge Press, Everard challenged the idea, long advocated by digital utopians, that the Net would ultimately break down the national barriers and boundaries and render them both useless and obsolete. If states are hyperreal, then so are agreements and understandings between nationalist governments.
That won't happen, wrote Everard, a professor at the Australian National University, because the new economy is promoting inequities and resentment in many cultures, and because people don't realize that nation-states have two economies: the goods and services economy, and the identity economy.
"While the state's role in the first may be diminishing, its role in the latter is stronger than ever. In today's climate of change and uncertainty, people are turning to nationalism and engaging in regional conflicts over identity," he noted. Identify resulted from the boundary-making process; it was a way of identifying the national Self from the Other, establishing an us-versus them.
The spy plane flap underscores Everard's idea. China and the United States do billions of dollars in trade together, thanks in part to computer networks, and China has spent billions to develop a new communications infrastructure. The country is wiring up rapidly, eager to jump into the new networked global economy, which the U.S. already dominates. Neither country has reason to jeopardize this new relationship, which potentially democratizes China, creates new jobs, helps stabilize that region, and distributes wealth to some impoverished corners of the world.
Except that cultural identity is stronger than the virtual kind, and the nation-state can't seem to overcome some of its most primitive conventions.
Both countries seem willing to damage their relationship over arcane language and diplomatic posturing, which shows why the idea of the virtual state is so unlikely, at least for the foreseeable future. When push comes to shove, identity seems to overcome reason and self-interest. This style of identity politics crops up all over the world -- on the border between India and Pakistan, in Eastern Europe, all over the African continent, in regional and local conflicts in South America. Maybe we're lucky -- a century ago we'd probably already be at war. But this conflict is likely to be resolved eventually, maybe even by the time this is read.
Everard thinks that certain facets of governance -- the economy, research, media -- could in fact become globalized. But he doesn't see the nation-state disappearing. Seventeenth-century Europe was also turbulent, he points out, with countries popping up, disappearing and reforming as political and economic allegiances evolved, as new technologies changed the nature of war, economics and communications. And despite the Euro, it's still home to nations with fierce identities.
The U.S., birthplace of much of the digital revolution and of the idea of the virtual state, doesn't appear either fragile or hyperreal, but Americans are historically narcissistic and ignorant of other countries, blithely imposing their own traditions, values and practices on other parts of the world.
It's almost as if the more threatened these traditional boundaries are by new business models and technologies that connect people, the more these cultures need to assert their own identity, whatever the cost. The Balkans are a grisly testament to the enduring power of nationalism.
For all the new links between the U.S. and China, and for all the hype about new communications technologies bringing the world closer, neither culture seems to get the other. China doesn't fathom that a conservative U.S. president would be eaten alive by Congress and the American public if he apologized for a military confrontation that doesn't appear to have been our fault. The United States seems not to comprehend a tradition that places an enormous premium on honor, face, and responsibility.
Talk about hyperreal.
The US plane tried to fly away from the coast after the collision, but the remaining fighter blocked that route. After Chinese ground controllers denied requests to shoot down the US plane, the fighter forced it to land on Chinese soil.
Don't know about planes but marine COLREGS (collision regulations) state: Sailboat/non-engined boat has right of way over power boat unless power boat is constrained by draft and cannot maneuver. Vessel overtaking another must give way to vessel being passed. 2 sailboats, then the boat on starboard tack has right of way. 2 power vessels then vessel inside 117.5 degree arc from line straight forward of bow to 117.5 degrees to starboard is the giveway vessel. As usual the big guys make the rules. In practice cargo ships won't/can't move for a smaller non-motorpowered craft. If you can't control your craft it's your responsiblity.
If diplomacy were only that simple. It's funny how some women think that every conflict boils down to a couple of juvenile men in a dick swinging match. The situation is more complicated in reality.
First of all, China hasn't asked for just "any" apology. They're asserting that the US must admit fault. Many reasonable foreign policy experts are afraid that would clear the way for China to charge the US crew with violating international law and conduct a sham trial. We don't know for sure that would happen, but it's a legitimate concern.
Second, China is insisting that the US also recognize Chinese sovereignty over the air space where the accident occurred. Doing so would effectively grant China sovereignty over international waters, which is not a good idea.
Third, China has also insisted that the US should give up their right to fly surveillance missions near China in international space. There is no way the US will agree to this demand, and it is probably complicating the negotiations over a joint statement.
Finally, the Chinese government is using this incident to stir up nationalism and placate their hard line military leaders. Zemin is in a delicate political situation right now, with growing threats of protest and allegations of corruption surrounding him. The current incident is a convenient way to distract their people from other issues. Finally, he is being pressured by his military leaders, and there are rumors that the party leadership isn't really in full control over the military anymore.
Diplomacy is a complicated and subtle business, not a test of penis and ego size. The major news networks only cover the issue on the surface, which understandably makes the situation seem simpler than it is.
To unify the Middle Kingdom may require re-establishing authority over Taiwan and Vietnam, and finishing bringing Tibet into the modern world. Further, Korea and Japan really are break away provinces, settled by Chinese in historical times long past. Also, some may argue that the Pacific islands and Australia are rightly part of the Middle Kingdom, and required for the health of the prolific Chinese people. Hawaii is definitely part of China, as well as Pakistan and India. Russia might as well be part of China, but we're talking very long term here.
Looking to the so-called New World, San Francisco and other parts of California were built by Chinese, so the Middle Kingdom should have a stake in their ownership. Looking at ancient history, and the true owners of the Americas are the Native Americans, who crossed the North Pacific landbridge from China so many years ago - all those Indian Reservations are break-away provinces, and the Europeans never really compensated the Chinese government for the rest of the land they took from the Native Americans/Chinese settlers. If hegenomy won't recognize the rights of the Chinese people, then the Chinese people may have to fight for their rights, but this will be a short period of violence in the long history of the world.
Also, that Marco Polo theif stole Chinese noodles long ago, bastadizing them into Italian noodles and other pastas. The entire Italian cusine industry owes a great debt to China, and should consider an apology, as well as begin reperations. If they are unwilling to pay, then China could be compensated in land...
In short, it is insulting to pretend that China wants to conquer the world. We just want recognition from the corrupt West of what is truly ours. Surely we have firmer claims than those of the US over Hawaii and South Korea, or the British over Hong Kong and Australia.
An incident like this has just been waiting to happen, take a look at this link below The Inevitable Strategic Collision between the United States and China Keep in mind this was written in 1996
Oh yeah, no mistake about it, by taking hostages and breaking the rules of the game, Mr Ed, the Beijing goverment has opened hostilities with the United States of America. One aircraft and 24 crew members are, luckily I guess, not that large of a chesspiece. If it had been a nuclear submarine or a larger vessel with hundreds of crew taken hostage, however, the PRC and the US would now be at war. I can't say what the PRC would have done to the USA but I can tell you that most of eastern China would now be a puddle of glass - by this time tomorrow maybe it would have cooled to the point where you could make vases and Xmas tree ornaments and stuff with it.
- A.P.
--
Forget Napster. Why not really break the law?
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
I think the important point to remember here is that we are NOT sorry for the actions that brought about this situation. We are sorry that a Chinese pilot was killed (if he even WAS killed... I've got my own conspiracy theory about that). We are sorry that the US service men and women have been held HOSTAGE for over a week. But we are most definitely not sorry for gathering intelligence on a foreign nation. And that's what the Chinese actually want. An apology for "spying" on them and assurances that it won't happen again. I wish only the best for the service men and women being held hostage and for their families. I hope this situation can be resolved peacefully. But I don't think the Chinese government has any right to demand an apology for doing something that almost every modern government in the world does.
...that a hotdog Chinese pilot crashed into our airplane. The US plane carries a $1000 deductible insurance policy, so the lawyers for our insurance carrier will be in contact with you. I suggest you pay the requested amount, as failure to do so will result in more lawyers, something the US has an infinite supply of.
Actually, several times ELINT Bears from Russia landed in the US needing emergency assistance; the planes were usually repaired and sent on their way forthwith and the crews were generally not kept hostage.
As for the apology, I would suggest that that is a BAD idea. They don't really want an apology so much as an admission of guilt, possibly for use in the trial.
(currently testing something about signatures here)
I've never understood this prison labor accusation. My understanding is that US prisoners are forced to work too, without a just compensation, so where's the difference?
--
I wanted to mod this post down, but there was no proper mod option.
Slashdot needs a "fucking idiot, -1" mod.
ta ma de wang ba dan.
Fear my low SlashID! (bidding starts at $500)
Do not anger the worm.
Why should America apologize for China's outrageous behavior? I think Rush Limbaugh's Apology to China should suffice.
If anyone should apologize it should be the Chinese. This is the game they play. They are still pissed about the US accidentally bombing their embassy in Belgrade. Besides, they are testing the resolve of the new administration. They'll release the crew when they feel they have enough information from the plane. Hopefully the crew had time to destroy anything sensitive before the PLA captured them.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
More appropriately, we send our technology to them, without any need for spying. I admit that it appears that the plans for the w80[sic?] warhead was probably stolen, but our own defence contractors have given them more than they need--in terms of dual use technologies--to get those warheads to the united states. I would venture a guess that the bid for taiwan is not only to regain lost territory, but to get american/european influence out of that area of the world. With us only hours away with aegis destroyers and carriers, any conventional attack would either be foolish, or a distraction from a larger offensive. Furthermore, if we were truly interested in developing nuclear missile defense, we would be sure to comply with the russians and chinese in making them think that we are not. The best analysis I have heard about this is that it is a result of internal struggles between the military and less hardline factions in the communist party there. We cannot defeat them as easily as we did russia--so we think--because we are giving them all the financial support they need to make new weapons and infrastructure, and we literally give them dual use technology. This is the reason that Bill Clinton should have been procecuted--although there was no proof that he had anything to do with this.
i am so very tired....
Actually, it was the first Bush administration that sent Brent Scowcroft on a secret mission to China after the Tiananmen Square massacre to tell them "don't worry... we won't let that _really_ interfere with our relations."
Also, it was the Clinton administration that sent US aircraft carriers to Taiwan when Beijing's government was trying to intimidate Taiwan with missile tests during Taiwan's elections. If anything, we grew _closer_ to Taiwan during the Clinton administration because of acts of support like this, combined with Taiwan's further transition to democracy during that time.
I'm surprised you've forgotten all of this.
-Dean
As far as the average Chinese person's point of view, they'll believe whatever their goverment-owned press and their government-filtered Intranet (I don't even consider them to have Internet access) tells them to believe, and they'll lap it up.
I think I know the point you want to make you aren't showing a lot of respect for the intelligence of the average Chinese person.
thenerd.
The camels are coming. I'm in love.
two words - military budget
please, save your college essay material for another forum... you impress nobody
South China Post, a Hong Kong paper (part of PRC btw)
I for one am very conservative, but have great respect for Canada - my wife is canadian too.
Don't forget to mention when the Canadians rescued some of our hostages in Iran (I think that's where it was)
Right wing != "no respect for canadians";
We don't want another cold war, DO WE?
Why not? War (or the threat of) brings out the innovation, creativity and effort that gives us technological achievement and economic prosperity.
I mean, we've got a freakin madman at the head of the US (let's not get into China here...), don't you see we'll be going into another near-to-apocalypse situation all over again?
You must not live in the US if you actually think Dubya is in control. And btw, historically, the only way to deal with communism is through strength and resolve. Don't forget, for all the "free market" reforms that exist in China today, that they're still ruled by octogenarian commie bastards in both the civilian and military leadership.
Let's see a true embargo. Our economy's already in the shitter, a little more pain won't really kill us, while it could quite possibly throw China's burgeoning (yet immature) economy into chaos.
China's the last of the important dictatorial superpowers. Better to confront them now while we still have overwhelming military and economic superiority and bring them into the light of democracy than later when they become an unstoppable force.
And before you fret about atomic holocaust, most figures place the Chinese nuclear warhead count at about 400, while we still have way over 10000. We can, if necessary, kill every single man, woman, child, animal and plant in the PRC in less than 1 hour. Check this table or do your own research.
Your Working Boy,
- Otis (GAIM: OtisWild)
they dont have nuke that can get here. just japan and tiwan... no more cheap toys of ps2. damn.
I beleive a P-3 sub hunter is a converted c-130.
I was always told to apologize for something I've done. The US hasn't even recieved a chance to debreaf the pilots. How could we apologize for the crach if we don't know if its our fault.
Besides whats more likely, a figher hitting a trasport (which is pretty much what the the "spy plane" is. its a converted C-130) or a transport hitting a fighter?
should we apologize for flying our aircraft in international are space?
maybe they should apologize to crashing into us, and then stripping our aircraft, and stealing our technology.
I think people are forgetting we are dealing with a country that rattles sabres by lunching missles over Japan and Tiwan for so cald testing.
Sometimes things get interesting, sometimes not.
The case of China / USA spyplane matter gets old very fast.
It has nothing to do with apologies - although it may seems like it.
It has nothing to do with pride - although it too may seems like it.
It has nothing to do with spying - althought that plays a big part in this matter.
The real focal point that all of us need to deal with is this - TRUST.
I mean, this whole matter came about because of the LACK OF TRUST between the US and China.
If US trusts China, US wouldn't have to SPY on China.
If China trusts US, China plane wouldn't have to go out in the waters to intercept the US planes.
Jon, you talked about lofty ideas of virtual this, virtual that, but if there is NO TRUST whatsoever, everything boils down to basic animalistic behavior - whoever are stronger wins.
Jon, I know you are better than this - we are no longer in the brute-means-everything world anymore.
This new world that many of us (not all, sad to say, when you read all the breast-beating posts in this thread, you'd see that there are those who can't or won't understand that there exists a BETTER paradigm than what the US or China governments want us to believe) are still striving for is a world that treasures intelligence more than brute forces.
There ARE ways to solve this thing, and before we go on trying to solve this matter, we gotta understand the mindset of the "leaders" of both sides --
A. George W. Bush is a spoilt brat.
So are his team of cold-war minded aides.
B. Ziang Ze-Min is an old man who has gone senile.
So are (most of) his equally aging aides.
So, on one side we have a team of spoilt brats thinking that the world must play by their rules.
And on the other side we have another team of old seniles thinking that they ought to be respected, no matter what they do.
So what is there left for the rest of us?
Answer is simple, INCREDIBLY SIMPLE - JUST IGNORE THEM !
Yes.
The media of both sides are FULLY WORKED OUT, and day in and day out we (from both sides) are being bombarded by PROPAGANDAS.
You go ask an average American and he/she would tell you that China can go to hell and not even expect any apology, and you go to China and you'd find average Chinese gotten very furious over this incident.
Why? Because people of both sides (China and US) are being so HEAVILY INFLUENCED by the overworked PROPAGANDA that have left their own thinking to those propaganda machine.
That is why I say, the best way to deal with this matter is to IGNORE THIS MATTER TOGETHER.
You see, if a tree fell in the jungle and nobody heard (or see) the falling, that felling of the tree would be an insignificant matter.
And if the world - we can start with ourselves - starts to ignore this over-hyped incident, both the leaderships of US and China will eventually find a way to settle this thing.
It's always like that.
The more attention you pay to brats who demand attention, the more noise they'd make, because they'd demand EVEN MORE ATTENTION from you.
But if you IGNORE the noises from those brats, eventually, the brats will get tired of making noises without attracting any audiences, and they will stop.
So, Jon, please help this world by IGNORING this incident altogether.
We don't need more of "Nuke China !" or "Nuke USA !" posts in the cyberspace. The less of those insane flaming messages, the less bandwidth we'd waste.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
>Let me think about this...
>We have a turboprop plane at least 5 times the >size of a fighter with waaay less power.
>And then we have a fighter plane... light, built >for manueverability and control for dogfights.
Not at speed of turboprop. Fighters have are more manueverable at high speeds. Russians had trouble
controlling similar turboprops at Russian Far East before appearence of Su-27 with much better low-speed handling then MiG-21. Chineese fighter was a modern development of MiG-21.
BTW, US fighters also pretty often flew dangerously close to Russian bombers or spy planes in international waters very close to *SOVIET SHORES*.
> Good for them. I'm glad to know that when our
:-)
>guys are acting like jackasses they at least are
>careful enough not to hit someone else.
Actually, often they were not.
Sometimes US fighters came back badly damaged after collision. OTOH, no Russian bomber ever landed at US aircraft carrier
you would apologize to make someone happy ? even when you know this person you're trying to make happy is wrong ? So what if he's older ? If someone is wrong, they're wrong.
What about the fact that the crew members are being held there ?
If it was truly a matter of honor and old chinese traditions, this matter would be over. This is a matter of China testing the US.
Any old chinese wise man, would have looked at the situation practically, said sorry and let the americans go, hell they would probably have treated people's wounds etc. This is the chinese military who uses Jung as a puppet, testing the US. So please don't bring honor into this..
this is a result of greed, power hunger, ego and to see who has the bigger balls. Please don't confuse testicular fortitude with honor and courage.. usually it belongs to stupidity.
...err, just how accurate do you think a thermonuclear warhead has to be? One could miss manhattan by a hundred miles, and you're still fucked.
Now, that's not fair... this is America, and our American beer is like making love in a canoe. (all together now!) "Making love in a canoe? Yeah, it's fucking close to water..."
:) Comparing Australian beer with American beer is unfair -- like comparing Australian beer with German beer... Compare America beer with... umm... well, American beer sucks. There is no comparison...
"Beware by whom you are called sane."
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Yeah, right.
Sorry, but the fact that we were spying is not some horrible secret or crime. Yes, no one _likes_ to be spied on, but as long as the spyer sticks to the rules there is nothing that can be done to stop it. Since nearly every country that can afford an air force does this to any country it finds politically important, it would be silly for them to act like the US was doing something terrible.
Sure, we were "caught" doing it, but we get caught all the damn time. What, you think that was the first plane to fly past the coast of China? Or the first one the Chinese detected?
The enemies of Democracy are
I find it hard not to agree with the tenor of the article, but would offer one caveat: wait. Maybe we _are_ developing a virtual community, slowly, but I wonder how true that is of China? More importantly, how much does the virtual community span over into China? How many Chinese readers are there of slashdot, for instance?
I'm British, and feel part of a number of virtual communities. If (heaven forbid), something similar happened between the UK and the US, then I think we might find the virtual community putting pressure on our leaders to do something sensible about the mess. You can't, however, expect a strong virtual community across national borders yet, particularly across the East/West divide, where modes of communication are different, and levels access to developing communities varies significantly.
when one apologizes, it must be for a lagitiment reason. to apologize for something someone else started, makes you the whimp. it also states that you are at total fault.
in this case with the chinese pilot. he was at fault, he got killed over his tactics.
becuase he got sloppy, and lost HIS life, we can regret that the incodent happened. but we do not need to apoligize for nothing.
because we did nothing wrong.
To err is human, to really screw things up, you need a robot.
since we must apologise, lets just go to the chinese Goverment web site and /. it... then ask them to apoligise to slashdot.org for putting it there.
shoot, if the site was not there, we would not have slashdotted it.. lol
international water, a gloated pilot, and a damaged us plane.
hmmm.. why should we apologise again>?
To err is human, to really screw things up, you need a robot.
has slashdot.org ever been slashdotted?
one has to wonder.. lol
To err is human, to really screw things up, you need a robot.
i have ever heard!!! JEZUS!! our personell is being held hostage for an accident the china military caused. and they want us to apologise to them? what? they think we are idiots?
Bush should moon the bastards.
their so called propaganda machine seems to be running wild here in the us as well.
To err is human, to really screw things up, you need a robot.
What would the USA do if the chinese kept flying planes up the cost of California, just outside the territorial boundaries? What would they do if one of these planes came down at an American air-base?
The Russians do this a lot, mostly in Alaska. try reading the bottom of this piece from Slate about the Russkis buzzing teh Kitty Hawk.
Furthermore, what is this "violation of international law" that the Chinese officials keep yapping about?
The Chinese claim that their territoral waters (and airspace) extend out 200 miles from the coast. The US recognizes only the 12-mile limit set by international treaty (don't know if China ever signed that treaty, though). Therefore, the navy claims their plane was in international airspace, and the Chinese claim it was inside their territory, in violation of international law.
0 1 - just my two bits
The line should be a dot to you
No instead you bayonet, club and shoot student protesters.
You mean like the US at Kent state?
Post logged in for this story. It will undo your moderation for the story.
Work is for people who lack the imagination to play.
If you're going to transliterate names into English, you should try to do it in such a way that the obvious phonetic pronunciation is correct. I always find Chinese transliteration of words and names into English to be quite confusing.
That being said, I think making that joke is stupid and childish.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
The only reason they say we were in their "territorial space" is because, in defiance of international law, they claim 200 miles of airspace as "their territory". So both stories are "right" depending on whether you accept their claim of 200 miles or not. I don't think we should, and apparently neither does dubya.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Agreed. So tell me what your source of the absolute truth is.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Excuse? Provide support for this claim, please. International law is international law, so 12 miles it is, thank you.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Umm, china would completely turn the US into a pile of jell-o almost instantly. in a ground war, they can just give the army hammers and they would wipe out our army in a second or two. an air war... they can get planes faster than us, and have far more pilots.
WE could win in a thermonuclear exchange. (If you can win in that...)
If you want to battle china, you have to war very differently. you have to send ALL your forces in one giant manuver and hope like hell you get the key targets. oh, and go back to carpet bombing.. and make sure you dont care if you blow the hell out of hospitals and orphanages because that's where the munitions and important things will be.
war is nasty hell, and a war with china will make WW-II look like a couple of kids playing soldiers in the sand.
Please, do research your ideas, you'll find that things are helluva-lot(tm) worse than you think.
(note the persian gulf war was extremely one sided. The iraquis might as well have been cardboard cutouts in the sand.)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Yup, I didn't mean to take it out on them at all, I probably should've left out the "lap it up" part. It's not that the people aren't intelligent, it's that their government removes a lot of their chances to get exposed to differing points of view, and persecutes many that have one.
Cheers,
Bubba apologized to China for the embassy bombing. I think China is starting to get more adamant about this situation now that it's really looking like it was their fuck-up pilot who caused the whole thing. As far as the average Chinese person's point of view, they'll believe whatever their goverment-owned press and their government-filtered Intranet (I don't even consider them to have Internet access) tells them to believe, and they'll lap it up.
And you better believe that the Olympics are a huge deal to them. They've already been mailing members of the US Congress telling them not to interfere with China's chances of hosting a Beijing Olympics. This was going to be their big chance to prove that they weren't the backwater country that everyone thought them to be. Looks like they pissed that chance away now.
Cheers,
There's no evidence at all that it was the Americans' fault as opposed to the Chinese pilot. Without knowing any of the facts (which is pretty much the case now), why would anybody think that the U.S. pilots would decide to use a multimillion dollar, extremely technically sensitive, lumbering four-prop plane as a battering ram against a jet? Maybe evidence will come out showing which side was at fault, and it's okay for an apology then, but it's stupid for there to be one now. After the way China has handled the 24 men, I'd say they owe an apology for that if they want to join the rest of the top nations and host an Olympics.
One other thing... Those digital utopians that Jerry Everard slams in his book sound an awful lot like you, Mr. Katz.
Cheers,
The crew is trained to destroy any sensitive equipment if it is about to fall into enemy hands. From the brief meetings we have had with them the crew said they succeded in doing this.
I am sure that the Chinese will be able to gain plenty of knowledge from the equipment at any rate.
Q.
They did not misread the map. They fully intended to hit that building. Unfortunately the map they had was outdated, I believe it was the NSA's fault, they gave them an old map.
Q.
Uh, most/all dogfights occur at subsonnic speed. Fighter jets are extremely maneuverable at subsonic speeds. Whether they are as maneuverable at the speed of an EP-3 is another matter.
Q.
Do you even know anyone from China? There are a few people that I work with who are Chinese citizens and they happen to be the nicest people that I know.
I hate to use cliches - but it's appropriate.
God loves the Chinese people, and those who run their government, but I'm confident that He hates the opression of their people by the Chinese government.
The Chinese government imprisons its people without benefit of a trial, beats and imprisons Christians, forces women to have abortions (Bringing new meaning to "keep your laws off my body" - that's an example of real opression!) and makes every effort to ignore our complaints about human rights.
If we really believe that there are inalienable rights endowed to all men by our creator, then we must see the Chinese government's position as opposed to promoting those inalienable rights.
That's what I meant.
BTW - God loves you, just as much as he loves the Chinese leaders, and the Chinese people. If you want to know more, Mr. AC, please contact me.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
They have submarines armed with nuclear weapons, so, err, you're wrong.
> The P-3 may be a patrol plane, but the EP-3E is
> a spy plane.
No, the 'EP-3E' is a surveillance model of a P-3.
They are the SAME AIRPLANE with a different
mission configuration. They are not at all for
use in any sort of covert operation (Which 'spy'
entails).
Basically, the P-3 surveillance is being used to
supplement our LEO satellites. But that doesn't
make it a 'spyplane'.
If you don't agree with this statement, then
you are merely arguing semantics.
-Kysh
--=:: Wings and tail and snout and scales of blackest night
Thank you, finally someone says it. I've been trying to correct people on this constantly, but I'm just drowning in media-induced ignorance. -Kysh
--=:: Wings and tail and snout and scales of blackest night
> The Chinese state that we were in their airspace
Yes, they are lying. The incident wasn't even
vaguely close to the Chinese airspace.
> and that we made a sharp turn off course to hit
> their plane.
That's basically like the Exxon Valdez running
down a jetski, and about as likely.
> Do you really think we would be on autopilot
> flying so close to another plane?
Yes, most likely there was an GPS/INS FMS system
engaged during the operations part of the mission.
When intercepted (Yes, there are rules regarding
aerial intercept, standard signals, etc), the
intercepting aircraft are responsible for
maintaining seperation, in addition to the
standard right-of-way rules. (Less maneuverable
has the right-of-way, ergo, the P3)
Hence, there would have been no reason to
disengage the autopilot in response to an aerial
intercept.
> The likely story - both sides were playing a
> dangerous game of chicken in the air and
> collided.
This is a commonly expressed statement. However,
it is also highly unlikely. The P3 is not a 'spy
plane', as it's continually dubbed. It was built
in the 1950s- It's a military conversion of the
Lockheed Elektra, and its primary duty is ASW.
We use a few of them for electronic surveillance,
since the ASW (Anti-Submarine Warfare) mission is
less critical, and the conversion is easy.
You don't play 'a game of chicken' in an airplane
that large. You sit there and hope that the other
airplanes go away. Or at least stay safely on your
wing (As intercept rules dictate- Also, they
dictate that the intercept should be broken off
if it becomes unsafe for any reason).
No, the word 'Veer' doesn't adequitely describe
the maneuvering of a P3 (Also now used as an
aerial firefighter, in addition to military roles)
.. No, a more appropriate term is 'lumber'.
--=:: Wings and tail and snout and scales of blackest night
> The Chinese state that we were in their airspace
Yes, they are lying. The incident wasn't even
vaguely close to the Chinese airspace.
>and that we made a sharp turn off course to hit
>their plane.
That's basically like the Exxon Valdez running
down a jetski, and about as likely.
> Do you really think we would be on autopilot
> flying so close to another plane?
Yes, most likely there was an GPS/INS FMS system
engaged during the operations part of the mission.
When intercepted (Yes, there are rules regarding
aerial intercept, standard signals, etc), the
intercepting aircraft are responsible for
maintaining seperation, in addition to the
standard right-of-way rules. (Less maneuverable
has the right-of-way, ergo, the P3)
Hence, there would have been no reason to
disengage the autopilot in response to an aerial
intercept.
> The likely story - both sides were playing a
> dangerous game of chicken in the air and
> collided.
This is a commonly expressed statement. However,
it is also highly unlikely. The P3 is not a 'spy
plane', as it's continually dubbed. It was built
in the 1950s- It's a military conversion of the
Lockheed Elektra, and its primary duty is ASW.
We use a few of them for electronic surveillance,
since the ASW (Anti-Submarine Warfare) mission is
less critical, and the conversion is easy.
You don't play 'a game of chicken' in an airplane
that large. You sit there and hope that the other
airplanes go away. Or at least stay safely on your
wing (As intercept rules dictate- Also, they
dictate that the intercept should be broken off
if it becomes unsafe for any reason).
No, the word 'Veer' doesn't adequitely describe
the maneuvering of a P3 (Also now used as an
aerial firefighter, in addition to military roles)
.. No, a more appropriate term is 'lumber'.
--=:: Wings and tail and snout and scales of blackest night
Why apologize ? for the fact that the US WAS SPYING!
That's why. And the US was caught doing it. Spying is considered in any country as a direct offense. To the eyes of the whole world the US did offended the Chinese, but the US goverment and the US media tries by all means to bury or ignore this single fact.
That's why.
look around how many things you are using are made in china.
Explain why the US Government was so reluctant to join the war earlier then? Surly economists proved that war would have reviatalized the American economy. Isolation got your economy started, war bloated it.
>Sigh Study history before running your mouth. The US helped bankroll (through 'selling' arms, etc. on credit) the Brits and the French through the first part of the second world war. It was a very fine diplomatic line that the US walked to help the allies while not pissing off the Germans to the point where they'd declare war on us before we were ready to fight them. FDR knew that the US *would* be entering the war. That was obvious. But he knew he needed two things in order to successfully engage the axis: Public Support and Time, which he had by the time the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. If you listen (or read the text) of the 'fireside chats' from the late 30s and early 40s, you can very clearly see it in the works. (Hindsight is 20/20. heh.)
As for this thing, the amount of US bashing is amazing, and uncalled for. This is not the bombing of the Chinese Embassy. This is not the sinking of a Japanese fishing trawler. (Both of which, while accidents, are clearly the fault of the US.) In this, however, only the most irrational of minds can paint the US as the bad guys. (Unless you think that the world is a happy little place where such surveillance (It is NOT spying. Everyone involved knows what everyone else is up to, there are no secrets here.) is not needed, because the peace loving Chinese would *never* do the same thing to us, and if they did, we wouldn't tolerate it. (...even though we clearly have a history of tolerating it with the Russians))
For anyone interested in the mindset of the powers that be in China, I would suggest: China Wakes : The Struggle for the Soul of a Rising Power by Nicholas D. Kristof, Sheryl Wudunn, Nicholas D. Kristoff.
For those interested in the Second World War, I would suggest: The Second World War by John Keegan
This is stolen, uncredited, from the Rush Limbaugh website. I can't link to it anymore, as it has moved to the pay section of his site.
We had a term for this in university...
Moreover, if you're going to plagiarize, you might find something a little more profound than Rush Limbaugh
There are even stories in some major media that the plane was actually fired on by the second Chinese fighter and FORCED to land on the chinese island of Hinan(?).
> Do the same to any Chinese military crafts near the US air border.
The problem is: not that many Chinese - probably none - military crafts spying near the US air border. That's why the Chinese people are pissed off. Spying in such a way is not really a very friendly gesture. The many other postures of this administration doesn't really help, e.g., openly downgrading Sino-American relation to "strategic competition".
And that's also why whether the spy plane was in the internation space doesn't really matter that much. Yeah - (hypothethically speaking) say it's ten feet away from Chinese airspace. So? It legal for me to do anything just outside of your doorstep but it doesn't make it a nice thing to do, especially when an accident happens and take away the life of your son...
Good thing that America has international law, and a VERY scary Navy, on their side. Anybody who tells you that might does not make right has never read a history book.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Ah, so. Too close for Chinese comfort. And the Chinese, always so solicitous of America's comfort. Good thing China didn't attempt to suborn America's democratic process. Good thing China doesn't keep uniformed hostages. Good thing China didn't employ spies to purchase American missile technology. Those Chinese, they sure are nice to us mean ol' Americans.
uhh...no.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
P-3 Orions can not turn sharply. Simple aerodynamics. It's not possible. That's like saying that a Greyhound Bus or an oil tanker can turn sharply.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
We don't need to bomb the country. Just their military industrial complex. It's really fucking hard to hide a factory, smart guy.
And the F-111 is being taken out of service. I predict strikes by Navy F/A-18's, along with Air Force strikes by B-2's and F-117s. Oh, and a metric asston of Tomahawk cruise missiles.
We could move the 10% of China that lives in the 20th century back 200 years in about twenty minutes. Iraq's ability to make war (remember they were the third most powerful military on Earth at the time) lasted about forty seconds after hostilities commenced.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
...which would last about nine seconds into a conventional war. You think that a Chinese diesel missile boat is going to be just hanging around in the Pacific without a few 688 class attack subs ready to jumpfuck it at the slightest provocation? Please.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
You raise an excellent point. Fortunately, I think that the US military can deal with China's threat with surgical, conventional strikes...just like Desert Storm. The security problems, particularly near the San Diego naval installations, will be an interesting challenge.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Because "spying" is called SURVEILLANCE when it's conducted by uniformed personnel in international airspace, and there's not a thing in the world wrong with that. Asking for an apology for surveillance activities would be like a man asking me to apologize to him because I glanced over at him on the street. I'm not going to apologize. I'm going to tell him to go fuck himself. Is that nice? No.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
You mean how many military bases did our allies pay us to maintain in their countries to provide a deterrant to the Warsaw Pact? Let's frame our questions a bit more accurately, shall we?
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
You're silly. It is not possible to threaten a country's soverignty with an unarmed patrol aircraft flying over international waters.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
The US military did not at that time operate Boeing 747s. (Currently, I believe that the President's aircraft are the only ones in service, with the possible exception of the experimental airborne laser testbed) If you can't tell the difference between a 747 and an American military aircraft at visual range, you have zero business sitting in an interceptor.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Surreptitiously monitoring the traffic on my network is spying. Listening to radio frequencies that I am broadcasting in the clear is not. Monitoring the missile and air defense radars of a potentially hostile foe is a damn good idea, and it's what the military gets paid for.
Apples are not oranges, even if you wish they were.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Why on EARTH should the US even CONSIDER apologizing to China? Should I apologize to the twit on Rollerblades who knocks me out of my socks on the sidewalk? Just because the Chinese pilot was dumb enough to get himself killed while doing something foolish and dangerous doesn't mean it's America's responsibility.
More to the point, what message does that apology give to China? "It's OK for your pilots to threaten the lives of our aircrews...it must have been our fault...sorry for provoking you..." What happens when the next accident happens in Taiwan? All of a sudden, China has what they feel is an adequate reason to start an invasion. The US almost certainly won't let that happen, and now we're right on the brink of nuclear war. Oh goody.
The US is taking a hard line strategic stance with China. Considering China's militaristic and imperialistic temperament, this is not surprising. Remember what happened to Europe when Neville Chamberlain started throwing bones to Hitler...
(Yeah yeah, I just invoked Godwin's law...sue me.)
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
I heard that the E3 contained a psychic mind control ray that made the Chinese pilot think that he was a tuna. I also heard that the E3 tranformed into a 40 foot tall robot and drop-kicked the MiG-21 into the ocean.
There's enough rampant speculation on this issue. Let's try not to let them get in the way of the facts, shall we?
The US aircraft was a) unarmed b) in international airspace and c) on autopilot. That aircraft is totally free of any responsibility for the actions of the fighter pilot who was flying recklessly.
One thing I'm not sure of...was the MiG armed at the time? I know that many newer Russian (and American) fighters use cannon rounds in the magazine to help trim the aircraft, but I'd be interested to know if there were warshots under the wings of the Fishbed.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Correction. I mixed up my patrol aircraft. The American aircraft was a P-3 Orion, commonly used for naval patrol and anti-submarine warfare, not the E-3 Sentry, the Air Force's airborne warning and control aircraft. Whoops.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Ooh. Get our hands on an early-60's vintage Russian aircraft design. Bet those Skunk Works guys are absolutely salivating.
Not.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
You're right. To take these statements at face falue is perhaps not the best course of action. These assertions are provable, however. We simply need access to the aircraft's flight data recorder.
Oh, I forgot...it's being held hostage by a foreign government. My bad. If China was interested in discharging this matter honorably, they would not have uniformed military personnel imprisoned. The United States does NOT have to say "Mother may I please have my servicemen back." Under the rules of war (a funny concept to be sure, but a historically valid one) the US may demand the immediate release of those hostages.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
No, it's not. Spying happens surreptitiously. Surveillance happens out in the open. Spying, by definition, does not include the work of uniformed military personnel.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
From dictionary.com:
Spy - An agent employed by a state to obtain secret information, especially of a military nature, concerning its potential or actual enemies.
Do they wear fedoras and exchange briefcases at outdoor cafes? No. Are they spying? Absolutely.
-B
They were *spying*. But as uniformed military personelle, the treatment they have to receive is spelled out by the Geneva Convention. I'm sure those people were on the payroll of the NSA, but they are in the military and that's the rules everyone agreed to.
-B
The way I understand it, the NSA has a small army of signals gathering people that it picks from the regular armed forces. They need uniformed military for the reasons above, but the people no longer report to the normal chain of command of their regular service. I don't know who actually cuts them a check, but they report to the NSA.
-B
OK buddy, your country just made the list...
:-)
Matthew
American and Proud
/. finds me to be 20% Troll, 80% Funny
Australia will do what the commonwealth does?
wtf?
the Commonwelath doesn't have a foreign policy
it's a talk-shop
nothing more
If you don't know what the Commonwealth really is. And you don't know how Australia decides on foreign policy. Why are you making random guesses?
[We don't come from a planet. We come from a grid sector.]
I know it sounds funny, but I have to admit that I've had a better chuckle when the Talking Heads of the Media say his full name, "Wang Wei" ('cept they pronounce it "Wong"), as in "He should have maneuvered away from the EP3, but instead he turned the wong wei..." Heh.
-------------
I wish I had a kryptonite cross, because then you could keep Dracula and Superman away.
I'm trying to find a cite confirming this with google, and I can't find anything. Can you give some more information regarding the Soviet spy plane landing in alaska?
Thanks,
Mike
> 3. Political rivals spy on each other
Except that the US also spies on "friend" nations like French or Germany.
They [the Chinese] probably don't even have all those nukes they keep whispering about. Have we ever seen them detonate one? Well have we? NO! They don't exist.
Ah, that would explain the newspaper articles about the non-existent explosion of china's imaginary nuclear weapons, for example here is one from cnn. And here is a link from greenpeace (not my favorite people) that contains a history of Chinese nuclear testing. How about a CIA paper on ICBM threats to the US that covers China's ICBMs. If you thing we've never seen China set off a nuclear weapon then you just haven't been paying attention!
Yeah, and little me, who's neither Chinese nor American, can't help wondering what would happen if Chinese spyplanes would routinely patrol the US coasts. I think the situation would be much worse than it is now. The USA just don't like to be treated like they themselves treat everyone else.
and the US doesn't?
-c
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof which this margin is too small to contain.
Whoa!!!! Sure American's might make an attempt to clean up some of their messes, but other countries certainly do as well (for example China) and many do a better job than the US. The US does the worst job of any country in cleaning up after itself in terms of greenhouse gas emissions (either per capita, or in total emmissions). I'm ashamed that my country (Australia) does second worst per capita.
Which is better -- people who just want to have their Big Macs and Budweisers
I must admit to being at a loss to understand why anyone would want either of these things. Real burger and real beer for me please :)
Katz makes this sound way too simple. Sure, it would be easy to say "sorry", even if the U.S. feels it's not at fault. It's not a problem of childish intractability that prevents the U.S. from doing so, but rather that there are times when apologies really must mean something. Like when you accidentally bomb an embassy, say.
If the U.S. were to apologize here, when it's fairly clear their plane was not the proximate cause of the crash, then what diplomatic avenues would be available to them when they really did screw up? All those protocols exist for a reason, and they have been generally observed over the centuries because they provide a clear (to diplomats) form of communication between governments. Why do you think both the U.S. and Russia expelled dozens of diplomats this year after the FBI spy was found? It's a code, and I would hope Slashdotters can appreciate that.
Incidentally, there is a good article at the NY times about this affair, making the point that the Chinese government lacks manoeuvering room as well, due to rising nationalism and a politically influential military. China is not a monolith, and there are factions pulling in isolationist and open directions. Sending the plane and troops back to the U.S. would do a lot for the Chinese economy, as well as helping to keep the U.S. from selling fancy Aegis destroyers to Taiwan, but such a generous move would have China's hawks demanding the leadersips' heads on a platter.
This one will be interesting to watch.
but Americans are historically narcissistic and ignorant of other countries, blithely imposing their own traditions, values and practices on other parts of the world
...
I like that one. Seems that while it is a cultural habit of the US, at least some of you seem to notice
mfg
Yeah, let's bash M$!!! oh... whoops!
I am not surprised by Katz's views. In my history on Slashdot, I have learned that not even a total lack of information, insight, or understanding of a topic can stop Katz from writing something. Ignorance is never a barrier. I'm just glad he didn't describe it as "post-columbine".
But I have never understood why people - Americans in particular - are so inclined to believe utterly preposterous things about people living in other countries.
The first time I went to Europe, my mom (an otherwise educated person) told me to be sure not to drink the water, because they don't have sewage treatment plants in Europe, and their nuclear power plants are not well-contained, and so radiation gets into the water! I just short of smiled and thought, how could this otherwise sane person believe something so preposterous?
A few years later I went to China. Again, an otherwise intelligent person said "Aren't you worried that they will throw you in prison?" I said "no, I am not planning on breaking any laws." They responded "It doesn't matter! Don't you know that China kidnaps high-tech workers and forces them to work for the military?" Even my mother (bless her) warned me that Chinese people are evil, and that the military will break into people's homes, pull out pregnant women, and give them forced abortions. "And you know in China," she went on, "they don't have any anesthetic."
One thing that the internet can give all of us is the ability to communicate with people all over the world. Yes, even people in China. Before continuing to believe preposterous things (like "everyone in China is brainwashed by the Xinhua news agency" or "no in China can talk to people outside the country"), I encourage you to go to a chat room and strike up a conversation. Just about everyone in China is interested in practicing English. Try searching on Google for "Chinese Chat room" or something. You will certainly make new friends - after all, chinese people are super friendly. And who knows, maybe you will learn something. - davevr
This happened in the 70's. A Russian pilot made an emergency landing at a US airbase in Alaska. We pretty much just fueled him up and let him go.
Other countries might sell to Taiwan if the US stops because they goofed on China's coastline.
France did sell a couple ships in the 90s. Nice ones, BTW. Not quite Aegis but definitely on a par with China's best.
-- Colin
Yes, but what does it have to do with the parent posts ?
-- Colin
The US apology would effectively sign a death warrant for the 24 crew, as they would then be in China's and also the US's eyes guilty as hell. China has a loose leash on it's death penalty, and that's the bottom line.
Acting stupid isn't much fun when there's someone around who knows better
Ah, thanks for the tip and the link.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Leave it to the uninformed CNN watchers to fill in the blanks with unsubstantiated gobbldegook.
Although they have the right to expect Geneva Convention treatement, they do not have the right to be treated like passengers of an American passenger jet, i.e. be sent home with apologies.
Sigmentation fault - core dumped
To determine what you will say to another person, you do not simply ask, "What does this mean to me?" That is egoism. What you think is, "What will this mean to So-and-So" -- in this case, China.
China is treating this as a serious issue, a chance to determine the pecking order in the international sphere. Perhaps we should not put them down (demanding an apology from them would be a way of putting them down) but certainly we should not buckle.
Mutual respect dictates that we ought to do pretty much what Bush is doing, allowing the situation to slowly quiet down. That way, China will feel afterward that they are pretty much on the same footing with respect to us as they were before this incident.
Sigmentation fault - core dumped
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
Had they dropped lines and started fishing, then they would've been in big trouble. Remember when some Portuguese started fishing in Canada's fishing grounds?
--Mike
As a former serviceman, I can safely say that I WOULD care who's fault it was. As someone who served, I could not honorably expect, require, or otherwise want my country to apologize/accept responsibility for something that they are not responsible for. Especially to the enemy.
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Check it again. Read further down about Intercept Procedures. I quote:
"1. Identification intercepts during peacetime operations are vastly different than those conducted under increased states of readiness. Unless otherwise directed by the control agency, intercepted aircraft will be identified by type only. When specific information is required (i.e. markings, serial numbers, etc.) the interceptor aircrew will respond only if the request can be conducted in a safe manner. During hours of darkness or Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC), identification of unknown aircraft will be by type only. The interception pattern described below is the typical peacetime method used by air interceptor aircrews. In all situations, the interceptor aircrew will use caution to avoid startling the intercepted aircrew and/or passengers. "
Unless the Chinese pilot was legally blind, he was too damn close.
"Upon identification phase completion, the flight leader will turn away from the intercepted aircraft. The wingman will remain well clear and accomplish a rejoin with the leader."
Notice it says nothing about "turning away" other planes.
The diagram you are referring to has a nice "Not Drawn to Scale" on it -- and no distance marks.
--
Charles E. Hill
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Not to nit-pick, and I agree with what you're saying, but...
Just so you know: you can cast "aspersions" on things, but not "dispersions." Casting dispersions doesn't make sense... it's like saying "stop casting diffusions on the US."
Again, sorry for being so anal.
"The horse leech's daughter is a closed system. Her quantum of wantum does not vary."
(I'm a Cantonese, has lived in new york for about 6 yrs) I notice that a lot of these conflict come up prior to China going into WTO. I seriously think Chinese government is not too crazy about getting into WTO.
And one more thing. What's these "international law" you are speaking of. International gaming is like wild wild west. You get more when you have power. And I'm sure it's a bad thing.
CY
I meant to say "I'm not so sure is a bad thing."
You mean send out godzillion F111 to bomb china, bomb where? Do you know how big China is, stooopid.
CY
>Of course, the Chinese hate it (so did the Russians when we did it to them, so did we when they did it to us)
Of course, with the Russians, we had a sneaking suspicion that they were rebroadcasting games without the express written consent of Major League Baseball, and that is a Bad Thing(TM).
--
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
>The movie "Wag The Dog" is probably much more realistic than we think.
There was a lot of truth in there... take, for example, the words of a CIA operative in the movie:
"I know two things: First, there's no difference between good flan and bad flan, and second - there's no war in Albania."
--
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
I was going to suggest that the MIG is more of a Boxster or Z3 compared to the P-3 yellow school bus, but thinking a little longer on it, you are right - the Mustang is probably more apt. After all, I remember hearing the commercial (SNL):
"Ford, where quality is job 2.... job 1 is making your car explode."
Seems rather apt...
--
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
There's a difference between unrational behavior and just giving your lunch to a bully. Don't swing first unless you can swing last. At the rate the chinese decide stuff we could have our men out and then say sorry we had to kill a couple of those gaurds, you understand right?
Its the people who think that CNN is "right on" that really suck.
this sig is deprecated
That is why America is the greatest nation on earth today. And while it will remain such for a while still
don't tell the french.
this sig is deprecated
Oops. Posted that anonymously. Dang Lynx^?^?^?^?clumsy fingers!
< tofuhead >
--
It is still the dark of night.
-------
CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
I think if China wanted to have an independent agency (Switzerland?) investigate the crash and determine whose fault it was, the US would agree to that. If that commission determined it was our fault, I bet we would apologize. But that's not what the Chinese are asking for. They're asking for us to claim total responsibility for what happened, without any investigation as to whether that's the truth. Bush and co. won't do that, and I think that's absolutely the right way to go.
Why? Because it sets one hell of a bad precedent, the "Yes, China, we will roll over and do whatever you ask us to in order to maintain peace." precedent. This sort of thing was tried before wrt Germany in the 1930s by a guy called Chamberlain, and look where that got us. As much as we would all like for there to be peace, we can't forget that China is a big, powerful, authoritarian state with major expansionist drives and a history of human rights violations a mile long. I sure as hell don't want us to go to war with them, but I also don't want to see us roll over and give them everything they want. Give in once, and they will learn the US's leadership is weak, and then they'll just start pressing for more, more more. That will only lead to conflict further down the line. Better to take a stand now, show them we mean business, and try to keep things from getting out of hand.
So being military personnel makes them incapable of being hostages? What would you call them? Prisoners of war?
I suppose you also think that Jonathan Swift was literally advocating cannibalism with his Modest Proposal...
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
And if we really want to get them spun up, let's not only sell Taiwan the Aegis cruisers they want, but throw in as a bonus a fully loaded ballistic missile submarine!
...and from 400 meters, as the Chinese seem to be implying. If their fighter couldn't avoid the (relatively) bloated pig that is the EP-3 veering toward them from nearly half a kilometer away...
If you listen to the business leader fuckbags who reap huge profits off of trade with China, and spend vast effort lobbying our government to do anything to placate our second largest trading partner, then we need their trade more than we need to preserve any image of honor and decency. Profit trumps everything else.
I think an apology would be warranted if, and only if, the Chinese first apologize for the hostile action on the part of their pilot.
Anyone who thinks that the only reason China isnt releasing EP3 and its crew is because they havent received an apology is delusional and stupid.
Their sole objective is to humiliate the US and in the process gain some respect from the rogue states that they sell arms to. They see this is an opportunity to show the world that they arent fazed by the US.
Its time the US woke up and changed its foreign policiy towards China. Being friendly with the murderers of Tianamen Square just because it involves Billions of dollars CAN'T be right. Where are our principles. Pragmatism will only result in more situations like this in the future.
An article on www.bbc.com recently suggested that the military can not accept losing face for their pilot's actions. Hence the demand that we apologize. Furthermore, the bbc suggests that it is the military holding the hostages, and that chinese politicians have lost control of their military.
This is more akin to a Highway Patrolman parked alongside a turnpike using his radargun.
Not spying.
Surveillance.
Which makes it an electronic surveillance aiplane, but not a spy plane.
Hell - the whole reason China is stripping out our EP-3 right now is so they will have better tech to spy on the US, Japan, Vietnam, and Thailand, among others.
There's also a difference between making an emergency landing in a country you're in a cold war with and doing the same in a country you just granted "permanant normal trade relations" to, among other things.
You can see what the state-run media is putting out from their Xinhua state-run news agency. http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/index.htm
No, more like the same way we let the Soviets fly their reconaissance aircraft and run their reconaissance submarines slightly farther than 12 miles off our coast during the cold war.
But the EEZ doesn't apply if they're not fishing, trawling, drilling for oil, etc.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/index.htm
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/home.html
Are you stupid?
Don't you realize that we are not dealing with democratically elected government but with bunch of tyrants who would do anything to keep their power (and they proved that.)
Don't you realize that this "nationalism" is what stands between your freedom and regime like China?
Umm... there is a world of difference between people fighting for their freedom and rights, and people fighting for a flag (a piece of cloth) and a name.
"Nationalism" isn't what gets people to go out and fight to gain/protect their freedom. OK, maybe it does to some people, but I sure hope not all.
Nationalism is the equivalent to the person cheering on their favorite sports team, claiming "we're number 1" and all that as their team finishes last place. For sports, I suppose it's ok, since it has no real effect on things (except to generate a lot of money for a few people). But that blind cheering should NOT be ok when looking at a nation.
Nationalism would be people saying how great the US is and loving it regardless of how many freedoms they take away, how far it gets from what it was intended to be at the beginning.
"It's a huge game of chicken to satisfy a few male egos"
This is sad. If it weren't for these "egos" what would stand between your freedom and bunch of Chinese dictating your every way of life.
Well gee, I didn't realize there were all these Chinese troops ready to invade the US. You might want to share your information with the military so they can head off this obviously immediate threat.
On a more serious note... I was referring to both countries. Two groups of people more interested in saving face than coming together to figure out what really happened and working everything out. They're willing to increase tensions to show how "strong" they are.
Are you really saying that's a good thing, and I should be proud of our leadership as they, together with the Chinese, act like two little kids going "yes you did" "no I didn't" back and forth over and over again?
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"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
While commenting on the US/China standoff is interesting and certainly related to current events, it has nothing whatsoever to do with technology. Sometimes in his vigour to promote the hacker culture and the guiding force that tech exerts on the world, Jon tends to lose perspective (witness his RPGs explain global society piece).
In this piece Jon essentially argues that because this has nothing to do with technology, it is a very interesting statement on technology. Quite a stretch. And while the net is great - it is not going to usurp the role of nation states any time soon. For most of the world it is essentially just a good information delivery platform - not the foundation of their community.
I believe the first 200 miles is the EEZ is it not? The Exclusive Economic Zone, where the country has economic rights to oil, fish, etc.
The Russians have done very close fly-bys of Alaska and there were some articles at NYTimes online. Here is a link to the "summary" as the article is Archived.
It's only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything...
The US plane was in international airspace on autopilot
It depends on who's side of the story you are listening to. My girlfriend is abroad in China right now, and in one of her last emails, she said that the story is completely different over there. They say we were in their Territorial space. I think the truth may be some where in between the Chinese and American sides of the story. You can't always trust the media/gov't and their "spin."
It's only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything...
They CAN kill them. They have the ability and have done such things in the past. However it would be an act of war. And despite the way they've been handling this, they're not idiots. And our diplomats won't back them into a corner with no way out.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
So THAT'S what happened to the nose. I thought they were already dismantling it.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
The rule is that the more manuverable craft yields to the less manuverable. Air or sea. Same rule.
I was talking to some of the Chinese people in my office and its interesting to hear their viewpoint: As far as they are concerned, the US have no right to be spying on China. First of all, the US is seen as the evil aggressor that is always trying to put them down - by supporting pro-democracy movements, Taiwan, bombing their embassy etc. And now their spy plane kills a loyal, brave fighter pilot. One guy I talked to was so overcome by jingoism that he could not even begin to see the possibility that the American plane could not have been the cause of the accident because it can't make fast, sudden, big turns. The Chinese govt. has twisted this thing to raise nationalistic sentiments in the country, because they have been reeling from recent Falan Gong (spelling ?) uprisings and the bombing of the school. Like with all authoritarian regimes, the govt. depends on controlling what the people think and feel. This is not going to be resolved easily !
Sweet, thanks for the correction. I wasn't sure of the exact details, I didn't mean to be trolling.
Wah!
Thank you sir! Very lucid and coherent rebuttal. It's too bad no more moderators are floating around these parts.
Wah!
Inuit sculpture, please!
Wah!
Does the term "battle" apply though? I plead ignorance. I'm used to thinking of a 'battle' as large groups openly attacking each other, though I suppose that's a narrower definiton than necessary. My understanding of the Vietnam conflict is that it was mostly a series of guerilla encounters, and on the whole we mostly wore each other down much as the armies did in the trenches of WWI. There were exceptions like the Tet offensive, but on the whole I picture it as mainly being skirmishes in the jungle rather than armies & tanks & what have you.
Right, and these two reasons are also why we effectively won, if "winning" means achieving objectives more than it means high popularity ratings. It was a bloody mess, but a primary objective was that North Vietnam would never be seen as a triumph & example of communist success, and we left the country in such a shattered condition that this was surely achieved.
But then this still plays into prospects for the current situation. Whether we "won" or "lost" the fight in Vietnam, it was certainly a terrible quagmire, and it would be political suicide for our so-called-leaders to drag us into a similar situation in (ironically) almost the same place. We may have a technological edge over the Chinese military, but they have a huge numerical advantage, much as the Russians have had against the various groups that have tried to invade them in the past, from Napoleon through the Nazis.
It seems to me that the only way we could win would be for us to kill as absolutely many people as possible as quickly as possible, up to & perhaps including the use of nuclear weapons. Maybe such tactics could award us a technical military victory, but would we have won politically, at home & abroad? Or would it be too much of a mess to conclusively interpret, just as Vietnam was?
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
What's this we stuff? Our countries have our fair share of differences, but no one was calling China an "enemy" until January 20th, and I'm not convinced that anything has really changed in that time, aside from more than usual sabre rattling from our Fair Crown Prince Georgie.
So? It takes about 5 minutes to target a missile. The US & USSR ceremonially de-targeted their arsenals as a way of bringing a close to the cold war, but both sides knew that it would take about 15 minutes to get all 10k (or whatever) missiles pointed back at their original targets. It doesn't really matter where they're pointed, it matters whether they are used. And they are not being used. So chill out.
And out army berets are paying for their weapons, and some of the money we get from our economic ties with them end up in our defense systems -- again, so what? Welcome to the ho hum world of international trade, my friend. Have a look around, there are plenty of straw men for you to poke at.
...and we haven't done the same to them? You weren't paying attention during the cold war, were you? This is how countries deal with each other. The important thing is that life is going peacefully on in spite of it.
And just recently we blew up their embassy. I think they're understandably pissed at us.
Good for you.
And of course they spy on us. No big deal.
That's not really the point though. I happen to agree with you (bizarrely), but I also happen to realize that a simple "I'm sorry" would have our crew home within hours, but we're too stubborn to do it. If I were one of those crew members, I'd be just as pissed at our leadership for not being able to suck it up & apologize as I am towards their pilot for being too cocky for his own good.
You're right, let the crew rot over there. That's a much better solution.
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
How has such an obvious troll gotten such a high score? This isn't even particularly funny, as trolls go. I'm baffled...
Um, we disrespected their soverignity, amigo. I don't really see a case for either side placing blame in the collision, but our plane put down on their soverign soil. We did so under compliance with international law (issued a Mayday signal, etc), but it was us poking their ribs and not the other way around here.
We tried to claim that the plane is "soverign territory" just like an embassy or military base, but that was mainly a move of desperation. If we play things right we'll get our crew back, but we're never going to see that plane again, and within a few years they'll have reverse engineered what technology they can for their own systems. Chalk that one up as a loss & move on...
Right, give it to them American style... <voice sounds-like="John Cleese"> like, say, North Vietnam? Oh yeah, they whupped our butts reeeeaaaal gooooood....</voice> Fittingly, North Vietnam is mighty close to Hainan Island too, so I'm sure they probably got a pretty good look at what we can do over there.
As for nukes, anyone with a decent seismograph can detect a detonation anywhere in the world -- it looks like an earthquake. Three or four well scattered measurements can roughly triangulate on a detonation, and more than that can pin down the time & location quite well. Whether they say they have nuclear weapons or not almost doesn't matter, because hiding a successful test is like trying to hide a blue whale in a swimming pool. If we believe they have the devices, it's because we effectively saw them go off.
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I seem to recall stories about backdoor dealings at the time such that the Iranians agreed to give up the hostages if Reagan was going to be elected. I really wish I remembered the details of this story, or could cite a reference that would elucidate things one way or the other.
I have no idea who's side this backs up here -- I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to throw some historical light on the situation -- but I have the impression that it wasn't as simple as "Carter was a pussy & Reagan was a pugilist." If anyone could fill in some details here, I'd love to see it.
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
Well at least Jonathan Swift was funny....
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
Yeah, I'm very interested, but I'm also very busy. If you can find anything without too much trouble then I'll take a look, but otherwise don't worry about it...
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
Well, you're right -- it doesn't seem to have been the fault of the American aircraft. But the Chinese have stated repeatedly that if we want our crew to come home, all we have to do is say "I'm sorry". Is that too steep a price to pay to get them home? I think we can do that.
Yes yes of course, but that's not really the point. We [US & China] can argue all year over why the incident happened, but if we want to resolve it then it looks like we're going to have to suck it up and say whatever we need to say to bring our crew home. That's not quite to say that we should capitulate fully to their demands, but we need to acknowledge that they have the upper hand at the moment and we really don't have much to gain by drawing this out unnecessarily.
Nah, they don't need our help to find the pilot. It would be an interesting diplomatic move had they been willing to accept the offer, but the fact is that they already have their own air & sea abilities, and don't need to bring us in to help them. This sort of thing seems to have happened often during the cold war (as fictionalized in "Hunt for Red October" & repeated as farce with the Kursk last year) -- a country is just not likely to want this kind of help in this kind of situation. At this point, what they want more than anything else is the silly damned apology, and I can't see why we don't just accomodate their request.
Oh right, like China is the only country in the world to do this kind of political maneuvering either. Riiiiight......
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
It's particularly weird for me, because my fiance was born there, and yet I can't really talk to her about her background. In a way, she doesn't seem interested in the subject, and so my questions about her thoughts always seem to go unanswered or unspoken. Like you say, it barely comes up: we're both American and that's that.
As for the Japanese schools, it's a big row right now actually, in that the governments of countries such as Korea are complaining that the textbooks are glossing over Japanese atrocities, and the people writing the books don't really know how to come out & say it. I'm not sure that it's illegal per se, but it seems semi-taboo. Ahh, here we go:
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
WHY was this rated 5 and informative!?!?!? This seems awefully anecdotal evidence. Show us some proof--show us this story in a non-american history book!!!!
So what? They were in international airspace. It's none of your damn business what they were doing.
2. Illegal entrance within P.R.C. air territory
After being forced to make an emergency landing by one of the PRC fighters running into it. I'm sure there must be internationally recognized procedures for requesting an emergency landing -- did our pilots follow it? Even if not, a little latitude must be given for a damaged aircraft (especially when the damage was caused by PRC actions).
3. Illegal landing within P.R.C. military airfield
See number 2
Now, I don't care about "media spin". You don't have to listen to ANY media to know that this was 100% the fault of the Chinese. Only consider this: big slow poorly maneuverable propeller plane versus highly maneuverable fighter jet. If the jet was within 100 meters of the reconnaissance aircraft, then it was because it chose to be, and in doing so endangered not only itself but the 24 people on board the larger plane.
The Chinese should be apologizing profusely, and yet they demand an apology? This insults my intelligence, and it's starting to make me pretty pissed off.
"Lastly, let me assure you that the next time we hold a vote over Most Favored Nation status for China, and when we vote about China's admission to the WTO, and when China is considered to host the 2008 Olympics... I sincerely promise you that we will, at that time, say "fuck off and die you damned red commie bastards!" "
Mush as I'd like to see this happen, it won't. Pepsi, IBM, and the other multi nationals want to make their money in China. Meanwhile, record trade surpluses and human rights abuses continue in China. Many (maybe most) US citizens don't want MFN for China, but their own government doesn't listen.
If trade really would open democracy in China, why haven't we been doing it in Cuba the past 30 years?
Ya gotta like a man who knows when to roll over and expose his belly while crying like a small child.
I suggest you do it in person. The Chinese really respect that attitude.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
If China apologized and returned the hostages, we would accept their apology and apologize for using their airfield.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
The Russians did it all the time. We never busted one of their planes.
It is intellectually dishonest to base an premise on something that never happened.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
If we apologize, what's to stop the Chinese from putting the crew on trial?
If we did nothing wrong, there is no reason to apologize.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
Here how you do it : "I'm sorry that you feel it's our fault for allowing your pilot to behave in a reckless, life endangering, and inane manner while he was accompanying our spy plane within international airspace and above international waters. In addition, we are also sorry that our pilot felt that it was necessary to land the badly damaged spy plane (you remember, the one your pilot collided with in mid-air?) on a island that housed one of your satellite-transmission interception facilities, without first requesting the appropriate clearances and visas for our equipment and personel.
And? Where's the interest? Where's the dilemna? Neither of these two super-powers are stupid enough to let this incident escalate into war.
Both countries will work towards resolution in one form or another. My prediction - the US will not offer a complete apology & China will not demand one.
This entire situation is pure posturing bullshit. Let the news media from each country spew whatever crap they choose, I'm not listening.
Wake me up when defcon changes...
Does anyone think the US would return the Chinese pilots if the roles were reversed? I certainly don't...
"Obvious Accident" yes or no - still, the US plane was a spy plane, which is not something you like to have on you border.
I think below the surface here is what the plane was looking for and maybe got disturbed looking at...
I'm fascinated by the fact that a lot of you privacy and crypto and whatever fans here on Slashdot seem to assume that spying is a completely ordinary and tolerable activity for a plane...
Read this story at Yahoo! News which references it. If you'd like, I'll dig back further and find stories from when PNTR was approved, but it seems unnneccessary. What some in congress are discussing is the reverse--suspension of PNTR, and a return to the yearly vote.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Gee....I wonder why the Chinese military were removing equiptment when most of the useful ones were already destroyed before the landing.... Could it be that they are removing the black box or attempting to temper with it? The black box would show the exact flight data at the time and easily support what had happened. I bet you anything they are hiding that pilot somewhere and he's far from dead. That's why they refused any help from the U.S. to search for the pilot. It's probably all planned by the Chinese military to strength their position inside the government. I think they are interested in dragging this out as long as they are able to so they can get the people to focus on this external affair instead of thinking about democracy or human rights internally.
Uh, the F-8 is the chinese designator. It is not the same as a US F-8. The chinese F-8 is the same as a MIG-21.
Not only that, but there is a lot more involved in this. What happens in this particular case will set China's attitude towards the US for atleast the next 4 years (and maybe more).
In the Chinese culture, an appology is equal to assuming fault. If we appologised, we would be say that it was our fault. Well, from the given evidence we KNOW it is not our fault.
With that said, what is wrong with us saying we are sorry (even if it means we will be taking the blame for something we didn't do)? Simple. China will then feel superior to us. They will continue to create "incedents" like this and contually push us. We will be face with have to deal with all these incedents. If we don't appologise and don't take the blame because we KNOW that this is really the fault of a careless, hotshot, communist Chinese pilot, then we will be "drawing a line in the sand" saying, "we will take the blame when it is our fault, but we will not pander to your fantacies of being blameless all the time." When we bombed the embacy by mistake, we took the blame and appologised. That was the right thing to do then.
In retrospec, the Chinese may be demanding an apology this time because we did give them one last time, but this time there is no need for an appology becuase we are not to blame. China is holding our men hostage.
As for the Virtual state, the was never a virtual state. It was the fantacies of people who refused to account for political and religous differences on the internet. If we as a "virtual community" were to avoid talking about these things. a vitual state might be possible.
Again, Jon Katz shows his complete misunderstanding of the situation. China is simple testing where the line is drawn much the same way a child will test their parents to find out where the lines is drawn that will get them in trouble. Simply put, China is feeling out the new administration to determine if they can put Bush on their payroll like they put the Democrats on their payroll in the 1990s.
At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
Trying to draw a tech analogy to what is happening between the US and China is, imho, completely the wrong approach. True reality is far messier.
The behavior of nation-states is ultimately about power -- primate status in its raw form. Not electric power, not something which is well-behaved according to some scientific principle. This is about aggregations of billions of bags of meat, each seeking more resources and status on a perpetual basis.
Moral values of any kind are a means to that end as well, mainly because they serve a useful social binding function that keeps national groups coherent and thus able to get more primate status collectively. (I may personally disagree with how religion is abused in the US, where I live, but I can't deny the social binding effect it has on its adherents.)
We as a species have created technology in order to gain more primate status for ourselves, individually as well as in groups. Technology exists in the service of one or more humans. (If you think it's the other way around, remember that there's always a human at the top of whatever food chain you're in.)
I also find it fascinating that a lot of people have posted articles about how evil China is regarding human rights, the death penalty, etc. But the US also has an atrocious human rights record, in that:
- We send 12 and 14-year-olds to prison to get raped in perpetuity, or to be executed. Oh, wait, that's usually only if they're black.
- We house more people in prison per capita than any other country.
- We have a very closed press which is owned by a very few corporations -- you can learn far more about the world by reading non-US sites than you can by reading US sites.
If the other Americans reading this start saying "well, we're a free country and China isn't", I have a few more phrases for you: "asset forfeiture", "war on drugs", "mandatory minimum sentences", "media synergy", and "Bush v. Gore".Now don't get me wrong -- I still prefer to live in the US at this time, because I feel like I still have a good shot at helping to make this country a better place, and because at least we still give lip service to liberty and freedom, and maybe one day we'll start listening to our own rhetoric. But we had better start soon.
Enjoy
--mark
PS On a totally unrelated topic, I think it's a good thing that most software ends up like a big messy ball of meat as it matures. Humans are messy, inexact things, so if a piece of software turns into a giant ball of meat, then that's a good indication that the software is accurately modeling reality.
The plane may have been over international water, but the Chinese may claim a more of this space as their own. So they may believe the plane was over Chinese air space.
It was a spy mission. Almost like the U2 mission over Russia.
The problem is that simply saying 'Sorry' isn't enough. The language they probably want isn't something we are likely to use. Like admitting to a criminal act.
Guess we are going to slap import duties of a few hundred percent on all goods coming here from China real soon. Not exactly what the Chinese want, but their problem.
As pointed out...this was an accident. It was something that could have been avoided if the Chinese fighter plane had not come crowding into a propeller-driven aircraft. Regardless of whether the P-3 "shifted direction radically and rapidly" or not, the smaller, faster, and more maneuverable fighter plane was in the wrong -- he was dangerously close to a larger, less maneuverable plane, and because of the Chinese pilot's actions, he was too close, got caught by the propeller, and crashed...now lost and presumed dead.
Granted, with the other international incidents the US has been involved in -- the Japanese trawler, and the bunker -- we are not being viewed in the best light. However, this incident with the Chinese could have been avoided if their pilot had not been such a "hot dog" and flown too close.
Our plane was over international waters, and was doing it's standard Reconnaisance mission -- this wasn't like the old U-2, or the SR-71 missions. The Chinese were in the wrong here, and if anyone should be apologizing, it should be them.
Yes, the loss of any life, regardless of nationality, is bad. For that, I would say the family of that pilot deserve something -- he did lose his life in service to his country. But it is the Chinese that need to take care of their own, and they need to release the American crew and their plane, suck it all up, and move on.
~RM1/ss USN(r)~
there are doorways I haven't opened, and windows I've yet to look through. Going forward may not be the answer..
At least get your facts stright, it wasen't WW2 that got you out of the depression, rather, it was several Government policies including a huge isolationist movement. as far as the world is concerned the USA has only been a world player since 1942. If your country hadn't been directly attacked by Japan, you'd still be having discussions about whether or not it is prudent to join the world economy
That's what distinguishes the men from the Canadians.
I'm tired of all this God-damned Canadian bashing, it makes me sick. Canada has a long and proud millitary history! Who do you think turned the tide at Vimy Ridge? Who fought hard alongside the Allies long before America came into the war? Even on a personal level, while many of your wonderful draft dodgers ran for 'pot-heaven' B.C. my father was fighting in Vietnam with the 101st Airborne. You think us cowardly for not declaring war on everything that moves? Ever hear of a word called "diplomacy"? It's that thing that keeps us from killing each other 24/7. I can tell you one thing though, I'm thankful that the democratic process works the way it does and keeps morons like yourself out of power. I suggest you stow your outmoded ideologies back into your ass!
Mark me as a troll or a flame if you will, but I'm totally sick of the lack of respect my country has in America. And I am deeply concerned that the American caricature of "flag-waving right-wingnut" actually exists.
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crazy dynamite monkey
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crazy dynamite monkey
Great links, by the way; I hope you get a couple more karma points before this gets archived...
At least get your facts stright, it wasen't WW2 that got you out of the depression, rather, it was several Government policies including a huge isolationist movement
nope, it was ww2. Government policies weren't making much headway beyond morale. look at the unemployment rate, it was increasing up to ww2
Most of the media focus has been on these "24 poor detainees" and their families boo-hooing that Bush should just say "sorry" so the "boys can come home".
Gimme a break.
They're soldiers damn it! Unlike anyone else in society they should know the very real risks involved in their profession. They should be prepared to sit in China for a year (their accomodations are as nice as a Motel 6 at least) and wait it out. It's what they do.
I hate GWBush more than I can express, but I support him 110% in this one.
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OliverWillis.Com
OliverWillis.Com
An Operative with an Agenda
Here! Here!
I second that opinion!
Also, btw, I haven't seen anyone post about how the US warned China about their consistent 'hot-dogging' and near-sideswipping our planes over the past couple of months. Anyone have a link? I couldn't find one on google.
These pretzels are making me thirsty.
>Let's not argue over international airspace, isn't it clear that the plane is a spy plane?
No, it is incredibly non-clear. This plane was doing reconnaissance. It was not disguised in any way, it was not attempting to evade detection. It was not invading the terratorial airspace of another nation (yes I realize that is somewhat up for debate as of this monent.) It was flying off the coast of China, attempting to pick up whatever signals radiated from the mainland. As many other posts have stated, we've been doing this for years, and it's been done to us for years. Sure, China might not like it, they don't have to. We never "liked it" when the Soviets did it to us, but we never brought down any of their planes over it. And if the Chinese could do it, we'd have to allow them too. Better yet, we'd develop more secure communications to make them work harder at it. It's as if a radio station in Texas wanted to prevent Mexicans from receiving their signal - by the nature of the technology, it can't be done. It feels like Y2K - when Arthur C. Clarke and various others kept reminding anyone that would listen that the "real" millenium was another year away, and the major press just kept shouting "new millenium!" oblivious the whole time to the truth.
Blah.
-cw
1 False. As stated repeated here and elsewhere US does not claim 320 km airspace. If your facts are wrong (especially the first)the rest of your arguement kinda falls flat.
2. See one above my friend. The accident occurred in I-n-t-e-r-n-a-t-i-o-n-a-l airspace.
3. So what ! P3 could do barrel rolls if they like, nothing wrong here.
5. The Freeworld media is not in a conspiracy. Each media source has its own flavor but any media source the obviously distorted the basic facts would not be mainstream and would be ignored. I especially like how the the Chinese media like to publish how the American plane "suddenly swerved" and the fighter could not move out the way fast enough.
The present Chinese goverment does not represent the Chinese people. It is an illegal, immoral and antiquated form of government. It will fall by the wayside. Lets just hope that is does not start a war first.
Excessive nationalism is always the first step toward war. If China had a free press then the government could not stand for day. The Chinese govnerment is an autocratic regime that cannot tolerate the truth.
If your post was troll (which i suspect it is) good job.
Bullshit. I voted for Bush and this whiny crap about "Gore really won" is pathetic.
I am actually getting mad at Bush for not taking a HARDER stance. I hope congress begins the process of revoking the Most Favored Nation status that should never have been granted in the first place. I also want our representitives on the IOC to make sure its a cold day in hell before China hosts the olimpics.
I also believe that if we really do "apologize", we'll get 23 service people back and the pilot will remain in China and be charged in the death of their pilot.
They are holding our people hostage, plain and simple.
Google
We could have been like the Soviets and just not left after WWII.
How many U.S. military bases are in Germany, Japan, Italy, U.K.... etc...
Me thinks that the U.S. did stay behind after WWII.
I'm speculating here, but I don't think the pilot would give a crap, as long as it gets him home.
Uh, no, at Kent State you just shot them. That's simple.
The US EP-3 is a propeller driven aircraft, meaning it flies roughly 300 miles per hour. The Chinese J-8 fighter which intercepted the US EP-3, is a supersonic fighter jet capable of speeds over mach 2! Do you really think the US plane would "ram" the jet out of the sky? Is it not obvious that in order for there to be a collision of any sort, it would require the Chinese fighter to maneuver itself VERY close to the US EP-3? US military flights usually follow a preplanned flight path, and given the nature of the plane I highly doubt the experienced pilot would be so stupid to veer from it. Additionally, no rational person would "hotdog" a propeller driven aircraft. The only autonomous aircraft in the sky that day were Chinese fighters. Please wake up people, this is nothing more than political posturing by the Chinese trying to make a name for themselves. They know the upper-hand is in their favor and they're exploiting it to the fullest. Not to mention it buys TONS of time to rummage through the classified US aircraft. Janes Intelligence is a pretty reliable source when it comes to military information. Most of this information can be found here. Go there to read some "non-spinned" and "non-politicized" facts.
Surveillance != Spying
Both are intelligence gathering operations, but spying is BY DEFINITION covert. Flying in uniform, in a marked military aircraft is just about as far from covert as one can get.
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Thank you for spreading wild and stupid speculation without even a source to back it up.
Sigs are awesome huh?
If the US were to apologize they open themselves up to the liabilities. In essence, they would have to pay for the downed jet and any costs associated with the hunt for the downed Chinese airman, plus any reparations for the death of the airman. Now, we don't know what really happened out there other then that two planes hit each other and the smaler one lost. The Chinese need to get off the high horse and realize that this was an accident and start working with the US to find out EXACTLY what happened. Once it is determined then apologies should be handed out if neccessary.
I just don't understand why the smaller plane so darn close as to not avoid a collision with the bigger plane when both were in international airspace. It's like if you hit the person in front of you in your car you will get the ticket %90 of the time.
Back in the 1980's, a Soviet spy plane had trouble and was allowed to land in Alaska. After it was repaired, the crew was allowed to leave, completely unmollested.
Can you provide any more info on that? I haven't seen references to that anywhere. Do you have any links? Is there more info you could give me about it (e.g, what air base, etc.)? I tried a search with what info is in your comment and came up empty. I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks,
Nathan Florea
I really do not think that the fact that you are Canadian gives you any great insight on this matter.
IANAC (Canadian), but I think I might have more than pure speculation to offer. A close personal friend of mine is one of the air crewman being held in China.
First, let me point out that we WERE NOT SPYING. While it is convenient to call it that, spying by definition involves secrecy. What we were doing was intelligence gathering, and not spying, because there was no secrecy involved. We have been doing these flights for a long time. China knows it. The American public knows it (or could have, if they wanted to), and the rest of the world knows it, if they want. Secrecy is not a requirement of intelligence gathering. We routinely monitor the transmissions of other countries. If you do not like it, do not send your signals into international or U.S. territory. It is that simple. I don't want my neighbor to see me changing, so I close the blinds. If I choose not to, I can't blame my neighbor for seeing me naked.
Regarding your speculation that pilot decided "to teach the fighter pilot a lesson" is outrageous. While it might seem reasonable to someone raised on Top Gun and Hollywood movies, it does not occur in these cases. While some of our pilots engage in hot dog antics, they are generally jet pilots. The same character traits that lead to hot dogging also lead to flying the fastest planes, which the E-P3 is most definitely not. The plane bodies are from the 60's. Not only that, but the pilots are specifically chosen to avoid that kind of behavior.
Just as these missions are typical, it is also typcial to be intercepted. Chinese fly bys are part of the game, trying to make the other guy blink, and the pilots are just as determined not to blink. These missions are taken with the utmost seriousness by everyone involved.
I'm shocked. I'm sure that he'd find some way to connect them. Or at least geek oppression.
They need the extra week or so to reverse engineer the signals intelligence equipment before they have to hand it back. Not everyday you get a great piece of hardware dropped in your lap.
im sick of people posting about shit they have read on the internet with no confirmation.
Why not tell china that if our plane had more of an x( pick a number ) percent course change over a y(pick a number ) time interval we will apologize. But, We need our plane/black box and pilots home to find that out.
Put the ball back in their court and if it was our plane then apologize if not tell them to kiss off.
The number of females in a species has a more direct relationship to its growth rate than the number of males does. I shouldn't need to explain why. =)
Retuning your argument to take genetic diversity into account might fix it, though...
And this guy is marked as "0 flamebait", when the parent is "5 insightful". Geez, I hope it is that the moderators are joking today, because it is sure as hell kinda funny.
The yanks will fall some day - look who will be laughing then....
the parent comment which was a load of nationalistic 'commie' squealing crap got a 5 but the above comment which was informative and didn't resort to idiotic namecalling got a 1.
The bills in Congress against Beijing's bid, therefore, constitute a gross interference in the internal affairs and inherent rights of the IOC. Such bills run counter to the spirit of the Olympic Charter which forbids discrimination against any country or individual, on the basis of race, religion, politics, sex or any other reason. It would be "incompatible with the capacity of Olympics" for the US Congress to obstruct, under the pretext of human rights, Beijing's bid and China's efforts to contribute to the Olympic Movement, world peace and development.
Human rights?! That's like Eminem telling Frank Sinatra he can't carry a tune.
Personally, I don't know why any country would put any effort into hosting the Olympics. Who gives a rat's ass (which is a Chinese delicacy), how far a muscled bound freak can put the shot or what margin Dream Team v1.5.10 will thrash Ecuador by. This just shows how irrational the Chinese political culture is. I make the distinction of policital culture, because I think China if interested in human rights, true democracy, and free trade could be a valuable member of the international community. But until it lets go of the dogma, it won't happen. No apologies.
The Exploited said it best "Fuck the USA"
00 FF
Much like the middle east Crisis, you can't get the leaders of a nation to actually make their citizens to forgive and move towards peace. Hell, it's actually a good thing, because if our politicians could do that, they could sway public opinion for other stuff too.... kinda makes you think.
I have to give that an 11 on the speculation scale.
1. Freeze ALL chinese assets in the US.
2. Inform China that none of their ships will not be allowed to dock and unload in the US.
3. Inform China that for every day this drags on, these restrictions will exist for one year, regardless of when the standoff ends.
Why won't this happen? Because corporate execs sit around in circle jerks and dream of seeling each and every Chinaman an air conditioner or a washing machine. The truth of course is that China never intends to be an equitable trading partner. They want to sell us stuff and steal our technology.
I did business in Hong Kong and the PRC in the 80's and they were the worst business partners I ever had. They lied, cheated and stole. I can't see why anyone would want to trade with them.
Who cares what the rest of the world thinks. You don't like us spying on you, do something about it. Destroy our vast spy satellite network, our planes, our human spies, our radio receivers. Good luck.
And, of course we all know that Chinese news is not manipulated.
How is that a joke? Just an observation, but I thought jokes were supposed to be funny.
Now Bush is a newcomer in international politics and he made one beginners mistake in dealing with this situation. He "demanded" the return of the plane and the crew of the plane immediately. Now that is going on the offensive before there is anything to go on the offensive about. What he should have done was show some regret that this incident happend and that the US should have offered their full support in getting to the bottom of what happened and be a little bit more patient then he was. That is what Bush should appologise for at the moment, I agree that he should not appologise for the run in itself but rather his reactions to it. Hope this gives a little bit of a different insight. Cheers
As a Canadian, I am proud to be different.
:)
Thanks for the compliment
DOS is dead, and no one cares...
DOS is dead, and no one cares...
If there's a Bourne Shell, I'll see you there
It's time for the governments of the world to step aside and let people leave free.
you really think the US doesnt have anything better than the SR-71. ever wandered what they really have at area 51
first, the US didnt do anything, it was the pilot of the jet who apparently didnt understand how to fly a jet, or understand that those planes cant fly like his jet, second, it is a big deal because 24 people are being held because china is trying to get all the tech they can from that plane.
Bush and The US has managed to piss off just about every part of the world in just a couple of months. Kicking out 50 Russian officials, dumping the Kyoto agreement, saying the US will care less about wars in foreign countries. If he continues this way, I'll be happy if we're not back in the Cold War before he's out.
Between the China incident and backing out of the Kyoto agreement, it's obvious we hired a businessman for a job that needed a politician.
When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates -- for once, make him clean up after me!
It happened with the Russians - a mig 25 landed at Tokyo and the US government returned it. A year later in pieces.
I'm amused to see that you are all taking your governments word as gospel in this just because it is reported in your 'impartial' (LMAO) press. Suspicion of your government is very easily subverted by appealing to your patriotism.
You all seem to be conventiently forgetting that this plane WAS spying on the Chinese. How would you feel if say Libyan planes were buzzing around you coastline just in international waters listening in on commercial and security communications?
.sig
The essential idea is this: Was the US plane in international flight space? Probably. But why was it so close? The article points out a basic difference in Chinese viewpoints vs. American viewpoints. Americans feel that it's OK to do anything you want, as long as you don't "cross the line". The line in this case is the law. Americans view the law as being a tightly defined concept. Chinese culture, on the other hand, maintains that you shouldn't even approach the line; that you shouldn't give the appearance of an offense.
This was enlightening to me. The Chinese are not really seeking an apology for the actual collision. What they can't understand is why we are running surveillance aircraft so close to their airspace? Even if it is not technically against international law, why do we insist on provoking them?
All the posturing on "fault" for the accident is a smokescreen for this basic cultural difference. Are there solid military reasons for doing the surveillance? Yes. But we must balance that against the fact that even if we're not breaking the law, we are definitely too close for Chinese comfort.
'Loss of Face' is a very Chinese concept.
do the math. & ...I live in the UK
Unlikely, in the UK we say Mathematics, not Math, which is an americanism.
Not even the UK government or the UK press have given Bush any support.
Definitely some agenda!
in order to be able to write stories for /.?
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
If it had been a nuclear submarine \snip\ most of eastern China would now be a puddle of glass ...If nothing else, I have to say that this is impressive - you not only _know_ what the Chinese government would do if this situation were somehow contorted to involve a nuclear submarine, but you also know that the US would decide the most appropriate response would be to kill ~500m people! You've good connections.
The Chinese couldn't care less about an apology. They're stalling so they can examine the spy plane and observe the crew's discussions with the diplomats. What an opportunity to check out what the U.S. has been flying around their country for years!
Just this morning it was reported that the Chinese look like they're dismantling the plane and going over the technology.
Eventually they'll say something like, "In the interests of Sino-American relations, and the families of your crewmen, we are returning them safely to the U.S." But they'll keep the plane!
Posturing? You think that's all it's about? You mook!
There was nothing secret about their operations. They were in international waters in a plane with US military markings. What they were engaged in was surveillance: close watch kept over someone or something
t
These 24 crewmen are uniformed members of our military flying in international airspace. They are not spies, and should be treated accordingly.
t
There is a big difference between satire and flamebait.
t
I really don't see the point to calling overt collection of material over international waters *spying*. Eavesdropping perhaps, surveillance yes, spying no.
t
The information collected is not even remotely secret. It consists of radio waves that are leaving China's airspace. In what way are they possibly collecting information that the Chinese aren't already giving away?
t
>for hitting the plane" bullshit were the same ones who were pumping us full of the
>"the votes have already been counted and recounted time and time again" bullshit five months ago.
Huh? The idea that China wants an apology for the plane crash incident isn't coming from the White House. It's coming from China! I agree that China probably is hoping to use this incident to stop the ongoing US spy plane missions, but they have indeed been demanding apologies for the plain wreck. So where's the bullshit?
how about "We are very sorry we were flying an airplane full of survalence equipment in disputed airspace. We are sorry for using the equipment to listen in on all your private radio traffic. And ohh yeah, we are sorry for destroying all the evidence that we were listening to your radio transmissions."= \=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\
=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\
I believe we did the same thing to one of thier planesa few years ago. Thier plane was in distress, landed on one of our airfields. We kept the crew of thier plane for over 2 months before sending them home. We also send thier plane back with them... in over 80 little boxxes.= \=\=\=\=\
=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\
and you think this is the only time this happened?
or was this just the only time we were nice to them... and we made sure to take lots of pictures and document carefully what we did so that we could act all innocent and pure later (now, like you are).
the think is, we're all missing the point. this is a test of bush - china's actions amount to sabre rattling, or, "beating the grass to startle the snakes".
Sitting Walrus Blog
BRAVO! Finally someone here seeing this from outside their US Jingoist reality tunnel. From the Chinese point of view, it doesnt matter who rammed who, what maters is that it happened in their (claimed) airspace. The fact that no one else in the whole world recognizes this as theirs is irrelivant. In their eyes, the US is at fault for even being there to 'provoke' the Chinese pilots. If this had happened in undisputed airspace this would have been over a week ago.
-- Hail Eris
Imaging for a mement, the two sides of this incident are not countries, but two persons, Jim Bell and Jeff Gordon. If Jim Bell leave a listening device (say, a box) on the sidewalk outside of Jeff's house, and Jeff's son tripped on it when he was out riding his bike. Would Jeff deserve an apology from Jim? Would anyone let Jim get away with the argument that the sidewalk is public property?
My interpretation of the events is that the US should bare responsibility for this incident that happened during one of its stalking operations against China.
The defence on the US side is that there is no law preventing US from stalking China. That is right. Why there isn't such a law? Because the US makes the law. In fact, the US is the law of this world.
The OAF
Probably not picked up because engaging in nancy-boy rumormongering is a half-decent way of finding out who is sleeping with whom, but a bad way to determine actual facts about concrete events that occured half way around the globe.
All kings is mostly rapscallions. -Mark Twain, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
to build defensive systems to use in attacking us Hmmm build DEFENSIVE systems to use in ATTACKING us.... I'd like to see that one.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
Your statement is weak and misguided. Our government has to do what's best for all people not just these particular people. The greatest good for the greatest number. Showing no backbone endangers the fututre of the entire country, not just these 24 people. It also lets other countries know that they can take hostages and the US will capitulate to get them back, wich leads to even more hostages being taken.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
Hmmm spying.. that word only applies tenuously to the situation. We were in International airspace. The transmissions we pick up in that area are the equivalent of talking in public.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
Of course this all is probably an attempt at humor.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
Patriotism aside, it is also possible, howver small the likelihood that the US was at fault.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
Just giving you crap . Although technically there is a difference between defensive and defens in newspeak.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
The US has already said it is sorry, it just has not apologized which would mean accepting responsibility.
By the way, the biggest threat to world safety right now is Russia, not China.
Test 1 2 3 4
So I guess it was 'Duhbyas' secret plan that an chinese fighter plan crash into our spy plane. Okay. And spying is really really bad, so we should stop it. Okay while were at it, lets cut our military in half again, like clinton did. I think I'm gonna brush up on my chinese.
Do you think, you fool, that if these nukes would not exist, US would not attack already? There were nuclear tests going for quite a long time on BOTH sides and experts from BOTH sides were observing them, you can be sure about this. What do you think all these agreements about stopping these tests are all about?
And let me remind you, please, how conventioanl means of war are soooo successful on Asia continent. Do you want to show them the US way same as you did in Vietnam?
No, actually what I think is that the "cowardy" on the side of US will continue and after Hong-Kong will China get also Taiwan and others. And you know why? Because US >do care about their peopleAnd to these who mentioned the case with refueling USSR plane that landed in Alaska... well, what for would be good to take this single pilot hostage? No one in USSR would EVER care and the pilot would be left on his own. After all it was a soldier. They would most likely wanted the plane back tho.
Well before you will shoot all these stupid phrases again, think a bit more.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Actually, with boats, the little vehicle has the right of way. The king of the waterways is the humble rowboat.
Yeah, they give out permanent seats on the U.N. Security Council to third world nations.
Just because you've got a giant portion of the world's population, an active nuclear weapons program, and a manned space program it doesn't mean you're a superpower.
Yes.
Face it "China", our Bu$h administration has an ubereliteego unshaken by your one-up legalistic demand for an apology. This standoff is almost as silly as the stupid mis-translation trend AYBABTU. Sure it's a delicate situation, but if all they want is an apology is it really that detrimental to show a little compassion? After all... our officials (gee, I don't recall voting on proposition 'spyplane') are at fault for peaking over the great wall in the first place. Satellites are one thing, planes are obviously more intrusive. It seems to me that China's actions are justified and the US is just being uncooperative, in trying to cover up the obvious truth, THIS ISN'T A WEATHER BALLON! Then again, what the hell do I know, I'm just your average sub-Joe-citizen with no insight into our govt beyond a mediocre college education.
Insanity is the last line of defence for the master diplomat. But you have to lay the groundwork early.
No, its only you.
Get a life!
We will never know the complete story. We will never know because the two governments involved don't want us to know. Both sides will continue to play this game until it is so saturated that no one cares.
Exactly the point, well said.
I'd bet a pound to a penny you could get a good Echelon-type system together for even one billion...
Let me see if i understand the logic here.. The internet will not democratize China, partly due to their setting up an 'Echelon type' system. So what does that make us ? (ie those countries in the west already living under an echelon type system).. dictatorships??
Look, go read a few books on Realism (why? think Condoleeza Rice) and then study a few more on how the history of the People's Republic of China evolved, then read a few more on the contributions of the various leaders involved in the history of the PRC, then examine the Liberal view (this is International Relations speak, not politics) of commerce and it's affect on nation states and their interactions, then go read Kenneth Waltz's "Man, the State, and War," then go spend a few months in China until you understand what motivates the average citizen of China, the average Politburo member, the military leaders, and the the whole dynamic of their government. Finally, educate yourself on negotiations and the language of international diplomacy and why it's so "arcane" as you care to call it. While you're at it, figure out why it's also so effective in avoiding the core challenge of human interaction: blunt language that leads to hot conflicts. Angry diplomats do stupid things and when they do...everything goes BOOM!
When you're through with that mr Katz, maybe then you can provide us with an informed opinion rather than this mindless drivel about "the bankrupt, outmoded practices of the nation-state, and also the reason we will never be so lucky as to see it wither away." What the hell is that? I'll tell you what it is, it's Katz talking about something he doesn't begin to understand.
I won't go into the specifics because I find others have done so quite eloquently in other posts. But let me say that what we consider to be our beautiful world order that is evened out by commerce is in all reality only a plane crash away from evaporating like the mirage it is. The illusion is important because it helps our children go to bed peacefully at night. But the reality is that all nation states maintain their boundaries (physical, spiritual, patriotic, etc)jealously and when they are threatened they don't tend to play nice. Given the opportunity, they'll all play dirty under the covers.
"The difference between paranoia and wariness, is after all, merely a sober appreciation of reality." Tom Clancy
This is it. The end of the world. I hope you have stock piled those Y2K supplies. We going to need them when the nukes are launched.
TW
Television is dead. Long live That Weasel Television
+5 Insightful??
It should have been moddded +5 Inciteful
Now how is this post a troll? I think it is very funny, and funny is neither a troll nor offtopic. Moderators, read the guidelines before scoring. Attempts at humor ARE encouraged.
~~~Please pass the salt, I hate unsalted MD5s
Remember also that we are only months into King George II's reign. Whatever happens here will set the tone for the next years (or eight, God help us). He's gotta play tough or lose any position he's got.
Katz has far too simple a view of this. Saying "Sorry" in this case is the same as crying "Uncle". If we do that, we've lost this situation.
I'd suggest that Katz go see "Thirteen Days" and pay attention to the scene where they talk about how their actions are the new vocabulary of diplomacy, and see how it applies here.
--
Monkey colony --> tribal society --> fiefdoms --> states --> kingdoms --> nations.
Study the alpha male in a chimpanzee colony and you see a great resemblance to GWBush and/or Margaret Thatcher. National borders are one of the greatest hinderances to humanity. Until humanity is truly free to walk the earth in freedom from oppressive nationalism, we walk with a gun to our back.
So here's a quote for the conservatives, "Nationalism sucks! Burn your flags now!"
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
I don't think this is correct. I have read almost every report I could on the subject in the past couple weeks and have never seen this claim. The Chinese claim that their airspace was violated has to do with the fact that the US plane did invade their airspace after the collision in order to land. The reason that this hacks off the Chinese is because they do not believe that a plane that intentionally rams a fighter should be granted "emergency status" to come into their airspace. Dakara.... invasion of airspace.
Of course, China has other international airspace issues with the small islands that other SE Asian countries also claim. However, that is not relevant to this incident.
--
dman123 forever!
--
dman123 forever!
Filtering out the -1s and 0s since 1999.
Suffice it to say noone is free from blame.
The U.S. was spying (surveillance) so does China.
Neither side wants to admit it may have been their fault. Neither side really really want the FACTS of the situation to be known by thier public.
Both sides are waging a war in the media, bolstering public sentiment against the other party. Neither side is looking to educate their people on the viewpoints of the other culture. Both want to be able to say "See I told you that's just what that country is like, you see it now don't you!"
Both sides have alterior motives in the negotiations. There are little side issues that are going to come up, trade-offs to make, further "discussion". Both sides want to walk away with something they can show to their people. Like so many countries want to do "Hey look we stood up to the 'mighty' Americans and won." or just to say "We were right and you were wrong".
If either side were interested in the truth this whole issue would already be resolved. Investigators for both sides would take a look at the evidence and we'd have a conclusion on who exactly bumped who and then an apology would ensue or punishment depending on the nature of what happened. I find it hard to believe that a prop plane could so quickly change course as to ram a Chinese jet. It seems logical to me to assume that the jet was flying much too close in an attempt to scare and/or provoke the US plane into an "improper" action. This cat and mouse action happens all the time whether it's US/China or Russia/US. It's the nature of military might to attempt to appear threatening.
Mostly this is just a war of egos and agendas. No one wants to be an adult, everyone wants to be the "agressor" and end up "winning". We are constantly reminded (the US) that we are still a young country and should bow to the might of China which after all has survived for thousands of years. But technically isn't China in it's current incarnation Communist China a much younger country than the US? And assuming that China is by far the older country shouldn't it as a country be more refined and have past all of these petty rivalry issues long ago?
The hardest but best lesson that I have learned is that being an adult one has to face up to ones mistakes, take responsibility for them, name it and claim it, and then move on. With one old country that should be well into it's "adulthood" I ask that it's people ponder that issue. With one new country wanting to appear "mature" and "seasoned" I ask that they ponder how to get there.
Force, bullying, lies, and treachery are not the ways of a teacher nor the ways of a leader.
"Do not be swept up in the momentum of mediocrity." - anon
One Soviet pilot did just that with a Mig-25 fighter (at a time when the Mig-25 was thought to be the most advanced fighter in the world), and defected. IIRC, the USSR got the plane back (although in pieces after having been thoroughly checked out by the DoD:). Since the pilot wanted to stay (and becuase it would piss off the Soviets to no end) he was allowed to stay.
"Bugger this, I want a better world." - Jenny Sparks
You've got to admit that one mans surveillance is another mans spying. "Mom, Jimmy was spying us while we were playing!" "Was not! It was surveillance!"
Besides, what about the Aurora if it existed, which it doesn't?
"Bugger this, I want a better world." - Jenny Sparks
This is pretty doubtful. Even if a 3-400mph turboprop could evade/jam/spoof/whatever the (IIRC) four missles F-8's carry, they've still got cannon that they could use to shoot down a non-combat spy/surveillance plane. Heck, they could just ram the thing and force it to land if they wanted to...
"Bugger this, I want a better world." - Jenny Sparks
The US crew were spies.
Um, no they weren't. As has been pointed out previously, the plane had US markings all over it and the crew were all wearing US uniforms. If you asked the crew, or the Navy, or the Pentagon, what those kinds of planes did, they would say 'Listen in on the communications of other countries.' Spies wear normal street clothes for the country they are spying on and generally say that they do anything other than listen in on the communications of other countries. They don't travel in a group in brightly colored vehicles like The Scooby Gang does. Spies can be jailed or executed without too many international repercussions, while executing uniformed military personnel is a stupid thing to do in the geopolitical realm, and totally immoral to boot.
"Bugger this, I want a better world." - Jenny Sparks
I agree that the US tends to act like a bully and push other countries around, but we have to isolate that from this. The embassy bombing was certainly the fault of a US agency, a spectacular failure of intelligence gathering.
But, in this case, any honest examination of all known facts (what few there are) points towards the collision being the fault of the Chinese pilot. The US should apologize to the world for being a bully in general, but we should NOT apologize to the Chinese for this specific incident because this specific incident IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE U.S. OR ITS PILOTS. It's a matter of principle.
I agree with a previous poster, that the U.S. should just ask the Chinese to let a neutral 3rd party investigate and lay blame on the responsible party if they can find one. The U.S. should make a promise of an apology, if found at fault, as part of the deal.
70 miles out with an Internationally-recognized (but not universally, I concede) 12-mile territorial limit is "so close"? Huh? That seems to be a reasonable distance.
Oh, and spying happens. That's a known, a given, and an expected occurance internationally. Yes, we spy. So do they. So do our international friends. So do we on our international friends.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
Thermo isn't a troll (I saw a Troll moderation at the time of my response) but Jon Katz' comment "obviously an accident" was obviously a troll.
To Jon: did you see video of this incident we don't know about? How do you know it was obviously an accident caused by our spy plane?
Again, I couldn't read the rest of the article because of an asinine assumption at the start.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
because one culture can't apologize for an obvious accident
The US plane did nothing wrong. It is now known that the US plane was on autopilot at the time of the collision. I am a pilot and I can tell you that any turns/descents/climbs while on autopilot are done very slow and stable. If the US apologizes it will be a slap in the face of every single wo/man in the armed forces. This is not a pissing match. It is a hostage situation brought about by a communist country that will lie every chance it can get. Don't by Chinese manufactured goods. One would think that the images of what happened to the young people in Tieneman square would be enough... Why in hell does anyone think the US is even remotely at fault for this situation
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No army can withstand the strength of an idea whose time has come.
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No army can withstand the strength of an idea whose time has come.
- Victor Hugo
The parent post is briliant. I am high. Now I see the brilliance of his statement. What is Jon Katz but a tool to insight posts. I give complete props to any troll that insigts commentary from our fellow /.'ers.
/.'ers! We are part of the information revolution.
props to all
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No army can withstand the strength of an idea whose time has come.
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No army can withstand the strength of an idea whose time has come.
- Victor Hugo
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
I think it runs deeper than that. They want to get a step up on the United States and having them apologize will "prove" that China is the stronger power. It may also give China the right to give the United States a whole lot of trouble. Politics are a pain in the ass but the US needs to continue to assert that it was not wrong or else they lose a much bigger battle than getting a plane or crew back to the US.
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
Also, whether its a trick of the US plane to turn sharply or not (and that plane is like turning an 18 wheeler sharply in front of a ferrari, hmm I wonder who can get out of the way easier?) the chinese pilots would have to have been WAY TOO CLOSE to the US plane in the first place.
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
I am willing to bet that American consumers with all of their keeping houses heated to 80degrees and having lights on in every room and driving thier gas guzzling cars for every tiny trip make more pollution than the corporations in America. I am not one to preach conservation but if you really want to cut CO2 emmisions by 10% turn off the lights when you are out of the room, shut off your computer monitor when you get up from the desk, drop your thermostats to 60degrees and figure out all the things you need in town so you can make a single trip instead of 50.
I know that in the midst of what people consider terribly high energy prices I don't have an electrical bill over $25 a month (that includes heat) and my gas bill is not over $15 a month except for when I visit my parents (which happens about every 3 months). You want to know something guys, I don't evey have to sacrifice to get these savings, I do ALL the things I want and live in great comfort in my home. The key is not wasting the energy and resources when they aren't benifiting me.
The same would go for reducing resource consumption and all the other things that people get so upset about. If you don't need something, don't take it. Don't throw something out because its not the best on the block. Use what you need to be happy but don't use 10 times more just because you can.
Bush may not be regulating the amount of polution produced by corporations but at least he isn't pushing a society that promotes people to use resources they don't necessarily need just because they have the "right" to do so like Cliton and his friends.
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
Now on a more american biased note, America has a sickness today. Our people are our own worst enemy and it quite likely will have the result of the world being run by China and believe me people you won't like working 14 hours a day for 3 bowls of rice.
The problem with this whole issue is that Americans want to rule the world by being friends with everyone while the Chinese know that the real way to rule is to manipulate people and maintain opressive control. The only thing that can fight that opressive control is a free spirit and the will to do what you want when you want where you want. Americans have lost that spirit. It seems that all Americans want today is a free ride. People that have complain that people that have-not are stealing there money and the people that have-not are complaining because they don't have as much money as the people that have. The govt. doesn't help the situation because it has to go with the majority will which isn't always moving toward the most advantageous goal.
People be cautious, we have learned in the past that giving greedy, imperialist leaders what they want only leads them to wanting more (reference Neville Chamberlain and sorry to the British readers if I spelled that wrong). We must stand strong. It is fairly apparernt that even in the best case both sides were at fault in this incident. The american govt should stand strong in saying "We were there, the planes collided and we regret that, but there was no negligance or intent on the part of our crew to down your plane or pilot and so we will not apologize for what is clearly an accident". (I won't advise that the govt tells the chinese the way I believe it is and tell them that they should be apologizing for running their fighter into our plane in an obvious attack on american people and property)
Now is time to wage economic warfare on the chinese right here where it counts. Check those labels and if the product comes from china, or if you know it has chinese parts, DO NOT BUY IT. Buy an american product if possible. Support your country because if you don't, you will be living in a world that you are not ready for, and if you really want to apologize and tell china that they are right, be ready for the day when they ask you to do more and red flags fly in america.
Remember, to have your picture of the perfect world of piece, someone needs to lead, and it had better be someone that agrees with your principles or you will have failed.
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
Having side that if the plane was so secret, why didn't they have a self destruct system in case of falling into enermy hands.
Jon,
I have yet to be a person who critizes your stances but this time I have to. Very simply, The US must not apologize for an incident that they did not cause. This would cause all the terrorists of the world to enjoy new life after Reagan and Clintons bombings of them. China must not be allowed to gain on falsehoods.
When the US lost a plane in Soviet Territory in Eisenhower's presidency. The first thing we did was lie. We stated that we did not do it, and the Russians pounced.. they had the PILOT!. We were left with many years of egg on our face and problems internationally. We lied and got caught.
China wants to be a world power, they will have that if they win this showdown. They are HOLDING AMERICANS AS HOSTAGES!! to think otherwise is to ignore that they cannot come home of thier own free will.
What would happen if China starts executing the Hostages??? They would say "eye-for-an-eye" and the US apologizing for this incident would give even more credence to this scenario.
Dont be fooled, China is the Red Dragon and when The Eagle fights a Dragon, Fire must burn.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
I dont know about you but having a country full (by full were talking billions here....) of people who resent america.. thats something to be worried about.
Jeremy
I don't think this was an accident at all.
If you read up some on past news you will read about the increasingly aggresive behavior of chinese aircraft.
The manner in which the planes were damaged is hard presssed to be classified as an accident.
Think about it, why not just go ahead and say its an accident and try and force the issues of their claim to air space.
There are so many factors involved here that it is a huge political stew that China wants to stir some to end up in a better position.
One of the previous articles pointed out that because one of the few things the Chinese people can get away with is criticism of western policies. The Chinese leaders listen to this. And the hosility bred over the past years is now something they must live with and defuse along with the rest of the world.
Jeremy
My take on this.
Keep in mind I am no political expert and that I am nowhere near involved with politics.
But.. when the biggest nation in the world fucks with us, us being Americans. I take notice and study it some because its something to keep up with.
To me this whole situation seems like a grab for relations and to bolster their image as somewhat victimized by US politics.
There is also no small amount of countries related to this bashing GWB as saying this is his fault and only he could stir up such violence within his first few weeks in office.
I dont know WTF Katz is talking about.. more BS but this is just a little more blatant attempt by certain coutnries to get better foreign policy out of America.
Point and case, there have been for many years documented reports (no links im not whoring just kinda ranting) of the aggresive flight styles of the chinese pilots.
I find it hard to believe that you are going to rub the top of your airplane on the bottom of someone elses without it being a definite !accident. This didnt just happen. To be a pilot even a chinese one I bet it takes a high degree of training and skill to where you can control the craft like an extension of your own body.
This just does not *happen* by accident. Then in the aftermath if you read the fine print the chinese etc are saying that this incident can be forgotten in exchange with some better foreign policy. (No specifics but tahts the gist of it IMO)
What better way than a bit of a catalyst and a missing chinese or two? The catalyst being this accident and they have 24 of our people being held against their will. They are holding them because they want an apology???.... Yeah right.
There is always so much more to something like this than meets the eye that Im not sure we'll ever know what goes on behind the media.
Anyways, I just think that this is posturing and China testing limits and trying to get some better policy etc. And to make GWB look bad to lose as much favor with other countries as they can. The media is doing a damn good job of playing this out and reporting just waht they want you to hear about GWB and how other countries are pissed about him not apologizing.
Another point.. OFF TOPIC: WTF is up with Comedy Central making fun of Bush. I mean they are outright trashing him in a manner I find pretty crude with their new show.
I voted for bush but would not watch a show dedicated to trashing our president, Clinton or Bush.
I just think this goes to show how democratically serving the media is at times.
Jeremy
i think all developing / third world countries have ignored the environmental impact of industry for the sake of economic development. the new administration in d.c. has opened some protected lands to drilling and mining.
"Fifteen years for jaywalking in a military run prison is overkill."
there are plenty of jaywalkers on the streets of beijing. none of whom have been imprisoned for fifteen years in a military prison. i think the pedestrians are more concerned about not getting run over by an automobile that is being driven by driver that is not currently imprisoned for fifteen years for breaking all sorts of traffic laws.
"Religion is outlawed. Look what they did to all the Buddhists and Catholics."
my friend in china attends church. she is not able to attend on a regular basis, not because she is imprisoned for fifteen years for jaywalking on the way to church, but because she just really isn't into it.
you are correct in your statements about china's human rights violations.
i'm not sure how you got a mod of "3, Insightful".
Why did I lurk so long before registering for a Slashdot account? I could have had a Slashdot ID of less than 100000.
i'm not defending china, "another evil communist nation", because i feel that it is the best place on earth. i defended china because three out of the four points that you made in your post are generalized and somewhat inaccurate.
Why did I lurk so long before registering for a Slashdot account? I could have had a Slashdot ID of less than 100000.
The American public, due to cultural reasons and media induced propaganda won't stand for an apology... I'll adress this in a sec. The Chinese public, due to cultural reasons and government induced propaganda won't accept anything less than a full apology... We were actively gathering intelligence data on the Chinese. The fact that the crew was busy destroying it as the plane was descending verifies it. Would it be so difficult for us to say 'Yeah, we were spying on you and we are sorry' get our personnel back and tomorrow business as usual? Duhbya does not speak for all of us. His cronies pulled the a successful non military coup, his posturing and egotistical/militaristic republican view do not in fact speak for the Majority of the US seeing he did not win the popular vote. My main reason for voting Gore was not to let this war mongering village idiot assume the throne. Duhbya wants the cold war back and he wants it back very badly. It will make his friends a lot of money and make the GOP look strong again. That is why we won't apologize, make no mistake about that. Billions of dollars in the right corporate republican pockets are way more important to Duhbya than the military personnel held captive. He will play this up as much as possible and eventually apologize. This will bolster his War machine here and he will be able to spend, spend, spend on new military gadgets that his dad and Reagan started developing before the Clinton administrations said whoa there and cut spending. The sheeples here will say it is money well spent and turn a blind eye as we all relive the cold war or atleats the Reagan Bush era of militarism and nationalism. Look at how good a job Duhbya is doing at pissing off the Russians if you need further evidence. It has nothing to do with American's not standing for it. We were threataning the sovereignty of the Chinese people. Real or not that is their perception of it. It is their inherent right to feel that way just as we would if the tables were turned. A Chinese plane doing recon that close to the US would more than likely be shot down. Heck, we have shot down Libyan planes for coming near ships in the mediterranian and that's just a few thousand miles from our coast line.For them it is an issue of saving face from the western barbarians, thousands of years of culturaly ingrained beliefs. In our case we are just beginning as a nation to be able to say hundreds and walk the planet arrogantly proclaiming our righteousness, hence for us it is about dollars and budgets and who stays in charge for the next election.Sad Really.
Prospecting Stinks. Stop Wasting Time on Cold Calling.
China does not want the US to apologize. They know that it is perhaps the one thing we can not do for our honor, to save our "face". Saying you're sorry for something that you didn't do is not honorable in any sense. Asking someone to apologize, especially for something they didn't do shows a total lack of "honor". This buys them a lot of time. They see a lot of potential profit in this misadventure or they would not be risking the potential costs (what good will they had with the American people is rapidly vanashing, the most favored nation status that they faught so hard for which in turn leads to the WTO/World Bank access stuff, and on and on). The stuff that is easily seen for them to gain... -test the mettle of the new administration, see how they react to things -heighten tensions surrounding Tiawan (especially as potential arms sales are on the horizon) -time to disect the plane for whatever information can be found -make an impression on other nations, puffing themselves up as it were, standing up to the big bad US
China currently has an 84 Billion Dollar trade surplus with us. That means every year, 84 Billion dollars flows from the U.S. to China, over and above what they buy from us!
Now, I love free trade, it is a wonderful idea that is lifting millions out of poverty, but why would China jepordise it! Add to the fact that pissing us off might cause us to sell MORE weapons to Tawain (sp?) or stonewall their attempt to hold the 2008 summer Olympics, or develop a missile shield (need I go on?)
Maybe the U.S. should apologize, do it in a childish sort of way, the way 2 siblings apologize to one another, before the "parent" makes them say it again. Since there is no "parent" for nation states, China will either have to release the hostages (ops, I mean crew) or demand ANOTHER appology. Give that to them too! The chinesse government will look ridiculous in front of the world.
Okay, I'll admit that the paragraph above is childish, but so is the Chinesse Government. If they would have released the crew imeadiately and kept the plane (say something like they wanted to be sure there were no illegal drugs on it) the international community would have applauded, the Chinesse would have gotten the plane, the amaerican crew would be home by now (or back in Okinowa where there were stationed) and the U.S. would have no strong position. But the longer the crew is held, the more people are going to be claiming that they are hostages and much more is at risk than egos and national pride.
Well shit... maybe you should consider spending that money on things like HEALTH and EDUCATION!!!
Ah... whats that again? Is that when you Send off all your young men that you don't want to a war you made up, and kill inocent women and children? Souly for the perpous of making propaganda against 'evil communists' for the media? So can make more money?
Oh hell yeah. I sure the US ecomomy will boom. You can start making more weapons, and sell then to the US and foreign millitary.
People like you realy scare me... I hope you go off and die in your fake war before you have too much of a chance to harm anyone else.
This is a wonderful solution, and would quickly settle the matter, if it weren't for one thing. We are not Chinese That is a Chinese solution, and would work if we were Chinese, which we are not. We could never say that. The western mind works not like that.
Naw. Chinese culture doesn't place a premium on responsibility. It places a premium on rulers NOT being held responsible, because they cannot admit to any flaws. That's the problem. The Net ultimately will help this, if Chinese citizens get sufficient exposure to the rest of the world. But it won't happen overnight.
InstaPundit! Ahead of the Curve Since 30 Minutes Ago
I love the smell of redneck in the morning. It smells like...stupidity.
-"I still believe in revolution; I just don't capitalize it anymore." - srini!
IIRC, the Chinese Military does not have ICBMs that have the range to make it to the East Coast. I think that anybody west of Arizona and that area was out of range. Of course, that articles was from a year ago and in IBD.
There are four boxes used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order.
I think Jon Katz should have a clue about what he's talking about before he goes spouting off about things, because it's obvious he doesn't have an inkling of a clue about anything other than what the media tells him. Which is even more amusing due to his statements about it. Jon please go see a doctor about your case of Cranium Rectumitis. It gets worse every time you post something.
I was very puzzle by the reasoning of some people here. Let me just relate a simple real life story. When I was younger, someone I vaguely know was riding a motorcycle. A motorcycle as you know is more nimble than a container truck (think a F8 to an E3C). This person was riding at 120km/h (think mach 2). Suddenly a container truck turn into the main road at slow speed (think 300 km/h). Let's guess what happen. For those people who are still clueless, please try it out as the rider. It will be fun. After that of course, you can prove how a fast moving plane is able to avoid the turn of a slower plane if the slower plane moves into the path it is flying.
Pentagon today has announced new advances in autopilot technology. In the aftermaths of a E3C crash with a Chinese F8 aircraft, an unnamed Pentagon official had admitted that the US E3C aircraft is equiped with the latest autopilot system which can be used to avoid interception by hostile plane.
"In the last few years after intense research, our great nation has come out with the most advance autopilot system to date. This autopilot system is able to take over the control of a plane whenever hostile planes are detected. As it is well known that human reflexes are relatively slow to modern computers, the new autopilot system using a P4 running on the latest Windows OS is able to evade interception from up to 8 aircraft at one time."
When the inevitable question of whether it is wise to trust the life of so many Americans into the hands of a computer, the spokemans explain, "As shown in the recent plane crash incident, the autopilot performs admirably. It not only manage to crash a F8, but also put the blame solely on the Chinese. They should never have trust humans to operate the planes. But the incident also highlight the fact that the system needs minor fine tuning. A slight truncated bug cause the E3C plane to suffer minor damages and if forced to land on the Chinese soil. If not for the bug, we are confident that the other F8 would be crash too."
In another independent development, a survey had found that people with an IQ of over 60 thinks that is it absurb that an aircraft should be switch to auto-pilot mode when it is being intercept by other aeroplanes. People with an IQ of less than 60 gives random answers. The only exceptions are americans. The person who conducted the survey, who only wished to be known as Uncle Sam has remarked that people with an IQ of less than 60 and americans would make ideal pilots. He attribute the result of the studies to the recent incident that shown the reliablity of the autopilot system. He was caught quoting, "Get rid of the pilot and replace him with a computer. The whims of the americans must be respected regardless of the real benefits of such a system".
Source: Who is the bigger idiot today?
From just about every news source I have read, military experts from around the world say that the chinese scenario of the EP suddently swerving into the smaller and faster chinese jet is ridiculous.
Maybe you should quote the news report? All from the US media? You should read some taiwan news report that it is the trick of US spy plane to turn sharply. Note that I point to a taiwan news report and taiwan is US friendly. It seems that all that you read are US friendly news.
The US has offered to help look for the downed pilot--the offer of help has indeed been extended several times, and has been rejected several times by the Chinese government. If they really cared about the downed pilot, wouldn't they want all the help they could get--I know I would?
And let the wolf into the house? So that US can spy on china more effectively?
PS: You know what is the Internet for? It can provides you with the views of other people rather than the US propogandas.
Unlikely, one report I read said they think he ejected straight into the propellers of the US plane.
The crew should have been free to go after, possibly, a brief questioning/interogation and a medical "safety" check. Tops 3 days. Longer than that (barring serious injury from the accident) and they're hostages.
Agreed. Personally I think the Chinese were crazy not to release the air crew after about 24 hours. They'd have got rid of the human interest in the story, and could probably claim salvage rights on the plan and keep it legally!
and since we already know what Chinese jet technology is, they would probably get it back pretty quick
Exactly, but if it had something of use, the USA would keep it until they had got everything they could. They'd be stupid not to. The Chinese would make a fuss, the US would stall them. Sound familiar?
Never said it wasn't in international air space. However it landed on their turf. As I said, consider what the US would do if an unfriendly spy plane landed at a US air field. They would make every effort to gain any useful knowledge from the event.
And if a Russian spy plane had landed at a US air-field? One that had some interesting technology (useful to code breakers etc)?
I'm kind of tired of how they have our people held hostage.
Maybe we need a war. Maybe it will get the economy going again. Nothing like kicking some stubborn Chinese butt to boost the morale of our country. And they certainly are asking for it.
We ought to show the world that we don't take crap like this lightly and bust them up a bit.
Shoot, if I knew for sure they were going to kick some butt, maybe I'd go sign up for the military so I could get over there and do my part.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
It is interesting to note the Chinese demands for an apology. There are significant cultural differences in how Western cultures view an apology versus Eastern cultures. In fact, the difficulty involved in delivering formal apologies has created a niche business in China. It's a very, very serious matter to them.
Western cultures do not have a culturally ingrained meme of "face". Maintaining "face" is not something which is on the forefront of our minds in how we approach things.
Not so for the Chinese. The Chinese government is very concerned about not losing face in light of this accident. To do so would be a serious blow to national identity. Ergo, maintain face by demanding that the other nation lose it.
This is of paramount importance, in light of recent events. Bomb one embassy here, make plans to equip a "rogue province" there, and Chinese national face is tarnished. This gives the military brass to force the issue.
In a similar vein, the U.S. is not going to apologize for its actions. Why should they? The aircraft was in international airspace, did not cause the crash, and is operating under the will of the state.
I am surprised that Bush has held back from giving them the bird when confronted with their demands. His restraint frankly amazes me.
I do not think this article belongs on Slashdot. Just becuase you use the words "net" and "irc" on in the article does not make it anything but a silly sounding political rant. Lets not make Slashdot a political soapbox for a select few. There are other sites for that.
Most of the comments here are so one sidedly favoured towards the US that they don't even dignify a response. It disgusts me.
Cool. Maybe /.'s in the US should not fuss so much about their government spying on them either.
-- Free software on every PC on every desk
I suppose that I was insufficiently clear. I know that the FAA has no jurisdiction in international airspace. But we were discussing ROW rules, and I thought it useful to add a little real information on how those rules are expressed, in one (large) jurisdiction.
Also, the fact that Chinese airspace is not required to follow FAA rules is irrelevent. That airspace was not violated until after the incident occurred.
When discussing international airspace, one must consider ICAO rules/agreements (www.icao.org). However, I'm not especially familiar with these. I've read elsewhere, though, that an agreement amongst parties including China provides for aircraft in distress landing as necessary.
While I agree with USians here that China's demands for an apology because their fast manouverable fighter plane couldn't avoid a slow, cumbersome big plane seem slightly unfair, I strongly suspect this is as much about Bush Jr's continued statements about how much a threat he considers China to be, and how we must arm Taiwan to the hilt with missile defence units as anything.
As with Kyoto, Bush Jr. calls it like he sees it; many Americans admire that in him, but it doesn't stop him having as much diplomacy as a bulldozer to the rest of the world.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
I'm not sure which is more irritating: The moronic comments of this hoser or the friggin' idiots that modded them up.
Your post was pointless. Go kill yourself
If you want to get techincal, you pilot a plane.
STFU, that shit is not the same. Are you that ignorant?
Imagine Dennis Leary saying this. It fints him perfectly
- Bob and Martha aren't forcing the Chinese to use slave labor, but they'll take advantage of it if the Chinese make it available. As will the Russians, the Vietnamese, the Japanese, even the Kenyans.
Missing the whole point of the argument, as you probably already know. Either you're for child labor or you're against it. Making decision solely on the availability of cheap products that result from already existing labor, is sheer hypocracy. What Russia, Vietnam etc. has to with this I fail to see. The "but mummy, Joe and Sarah stole candy as well"-argument quickly loses its appeal to most people having reached the age of 6 or so. Apperantly, you're an exception.- Americans make a mess, sure -- and we're the only country to clean up after ourselves.
You're kidding, right? This is just the kind of reckless patriotic arrogance that is the very heart of everything that is wrong with American culture. "We're the only country", I bet you've never even heard of most of the countries in the world, let alone know about how well they "clean up after themselves". And just what is to "clean up" after oneself supposed to mean anyway? That you rape and slaughter most of the Vietnamese before you leave in some halfhearted manner? That you drop two a-bombs instead of one? Although I happen to condemn both of those actions, it is not the point. The point is that what you're saying, if anything, is "unmitigated nonsense".- there's always one fox who thinks they should stop burrowing because it makes life so hard for the hounds.
Just the kind of statement one would expect from someone who gladly defends the nowadays all too common notion that outside the borders the good ol' US, there's nothing but empty space.- The *REST* of the planet is trying their damndest to get Madonna and McDonalds in their countries as fast as they can.
Actually, most of us are trying to get them out. I doubt there is one unamerican person on this earth who regards any of those two phenomena as something the world would not do better without.- The LEADERS in other countries have a ton of ideas about how the world should be run -- all of them bad.
I'm sure you carefully reviewed them all, and that you are comfortably knowing the conclusion you have reached on this matter is the only one that counts. For the second time, as you so brilliantly put it yourself, this is, at best, nothing but "unmitigrated nonsense". At worst, it may be plain wrong.- American doesn't want to rule the world, they just want to have a good time on Saturday night.
I'm sure most Russians, most Vietnamese, most Cubans, and pretty much all Europeans (who, for a century or so, have had their phones Echelon-tapped by some nice fellows who just want to have a good time on a Saturday night) would disagree. With your lovely reasoning, China is probably a rather nice country after all: most Chinese don't want to hold Americans hostages, they just want don't want to eat, sleep and don't be surpressed by their goverment. So why don't you just go out and play instead of quibbling about irrelevant pecadillos such as "who squashed whose plain"? I hate to break it to you kid, but the world may be somewhat more complex than you seem to be willing to accept.Maybe it was unintentional, but the anything but subtle undertone of your posting made me feel the need for a bathroom-visit. Thus I will say no more, and take on more urgent matters.
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance" - Derek Bok
- The only problem is that we didn't do a good job of it.
Sort of the point. Is that "cleaning up after yourself"?- It apparently took two.
I may not be an american citizen, but as someone who have written a 40 page essay on this very subject (yes, the subject of whether the dropping of a a-bomb on Japan was necessary and, if so, if dropping one was not enough), I think may comment on this particular matter with some authority. It was not necessary to drop a second bomb in order to get Japan to surrender. In fact, most experts considered it obvious that it was at most a matter of days before they would have done so nonetheless, and this Truman and his pals knew very well. As for frightening Russia, on the other hand, it may very well have had the desired effect, but that is quite another story.- After Pearl Harbor and the Bataan death march, they are lucky we only dropped two.
So it's about revenge now? I thought we were discussing whether it was necessary in order to get them to surrender or not. These are two quite different things.- But if that were really true, they [Madonna and McDonald's] wouldn't BE there.
In that there is some amount of truth, I will admit to that. However, you may want to ask yourself, for example, if you really would prefer the world we currently have to a McDonalds-free one. I believe it is possible that you would prefer the one without ever-growing oligopolistic McDonalds present in every corner, and that you yet may at times eat at McDonalds, and thus see what I'm getting at. Besides, do you think the average American would like to have, for example, white-power music sold in the states? Do you have it? But I am no hypocrite, and I admit that I maybe spoke for myself, or for a minority, when I made the remark about Madonna and McDonalds."If you think education is expensive, try ignorance" - Derek Bok
Nah, just settling some scores from the U.S. Revolutionary War.
When a preacher says he'll move a mountain, no one believes him. When a scientist says so, noone doubts him.
It happened at night so the Soviet pilot would have been unable to distinguish between a civilian and a military Boeing. As for window lighting, asuming he wasn't coming from behind or below he couldn't necessarily know that military aircraft don't have lit side windows as well.
-----------------------------
-----------------------------
If you can't blind them with brilliance, baffle them with bull.
I knew something bad was going to happen when the service at my local chinese restaurant was really slow. I won't even tell you what the fortune cookie read.
Actually, according the the press interviews,
their families are very enthusatistic in support
of the US governments refusal to label their
people as criminals, thus allowing the
chinese to shoot them in the head, and send
a bill for the bullet back to the families,
as they usually do with political criminals.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
The death of that pilot was not an accident in
any honest sense of the word. He killed himself
while committing a crime.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
See http://www.almartinraw.com/column12.html
by Al Martin
Aries II Down: Another Technology Transfer to China
In the continuing effort to make China the bogeyman of the 21st century, Washington has scored yet another coup - the loss of the EP-3E Aries II surveillance aircraft.
It's very reminiscent of the phony FBI Hanssen Spy Case. In other words, what the US Government is saying just doesn't jibe with the facts.
The implausible government story states that the Aries II aircraft was supposedly escorted by ancient Chinese F8 fighter planes to a Chinese military base at Hainan Island.
The Aries II has an electronic counter-measure capability that could completely fry the electronic components of a state-of-the-art MIG 29, let alone a vintage Chinese F-8. Its defensive capability consists of highly advanced directional microwave weaponry.
Also this US Navy aircraft uses technology that is proprietary to the National Security Agency. Most of the technology on the aircraft is electronic intercept in nature.
According to Department of Defense statements, all protocols were broken. This indicates that the incident has been staged to create a deliberate transfer of this technology. This technology is so advanced that even the NSA was queasy about giving it to the Chinese.
Since this technology is not proprietary to the Department of Defense and since the NSA directly controls the contractors who produce this equipment, there wasn't any way for those who are in favor of transferring this technology to China, as a matter of illegal covert State policy, to effect this transfer without staging an international incident. Therefore an incident had to be created to give the Chinese this technology.
Whoever was in charge of the aircraft command must have been in on it. Otherwise they would not have had the authority to circumvent the protocols, unless directly ordered to do so. The aircraft then would either be in pieces and the crew would be floating in life rafts. Or they would all be dead.
By the way, the military designation of the EP-3E Aries II aircraft is high enough that all crew members carry cyanide capsules. They must not fall into enemy hands for interrogation. And that is precisely where they are at this moment.
The Department of Defense claims they know nothing -- another bogus claim, since throughout the inside of the aircraft, there is a discreet video system which continues to broadcast.
The Defense Department is also trying to imply that the Chinese are jamming the signals, but what they're not saying is that the Chinese don't have the technological capability to jam these signals. These are highly advanced microburst transmissions that can even be bounced off of China's own satellites. The Chinese would not even be aware of it. Russian and Chinese equipment cannot even detect such complex microburst transmissions.
The protocol on this aircraft is very simple. If there was any chance that the aircraft could fall into hostile hands, the crew is deemed to be completely expendable. The protocol can only be overridden by the President of the United States.
The only logical conclusion about this incident is that it is simply an ongoing transfer of sophisticated technology to the Chinese military.
First, the government had admitted that there were 24 personnel on the aircraft the "majority of which were US Navy personnel." The aircraft's has 19 operating stations, Who are the non-Navy personnel, which the government refuses to identify?
Second, why did the crew not execute its emergency protocol and destroy the aircraft?
The media is reporting that the crew is supposed to destroy the technology by any means necessary. What they're not saying is that the aircraft has a self-destruct mechanism already built in. It could have been completely destroyed.
If it appears that the aircraft is about to fall into "hostile" hands, the normal protocol is that the self-destruct mechanism is supposed to be activated. If the aircraft is over international waters, they are supposed to actually ditch the plane and land on the water. The aircraft is built, so it can make an emergency water landing.
Since the Aries II is a naval aircraft, it is built to stay afloat long enough for the crew to get out and the life rafts to automatically inflate. The aircraft also carries emergency survival equipment with an EBIRB, an emergency locating system.
The protocol then would have been to either destroy the plane or land on the water, in which case, had the emergency self-destruct mechanism been rendered inoperable for any reasons, as the plane began to sink, the emergency self-destruct mechanism would have been activated automatically when sea water came into contact with the amitol derivative explosives in the mechanism. Amitol automatically explodes when sufficiently saturated by seawater.
Even if the self-destruct mechanism had been rendered inoperable, as the aircraft sank into the ocean and filled with seawater, it would have automatically detonated. The question remains - why weren't these protocols followed?
If the plane was able to travel an additional 76 miles and land on hostile territory, why couldn't it have flown to Vietnamese territorial waters? The US Government claims that the plane was "severely damaged" and had to make an emergency landing.
How "severely damaged" could the plane have been and still have flown 76 miles to make a landing at a Chinese air force base?
The aircraft had to fly north when it could have simply turned west. Since it was less than 76 miles from Vietnamese territorial waters, there would have been no threat there given the extremely hostile relationship between Vietnam and China regarding territorial disputes in that region.
One could almost say that the reason the protocol was not invoked was because China was not considered a "hostile" country.
The "coincidental" nature of this international incident also plays into the hands of the Republican right and the defense contractors clamoring to sell Taiwan the large and profitable arms package which includes the Aegis II missile system.
The longstanding Bush family connections with defense contractors who would profit handsomely by this sale should also not be underestimated vis-a-vis the creation of this current incident. Regarding the yet unidentified extra personnel on the aircraft -- could they in fact be electronics experts who were there to help the Chinese dismantle the technology?
The key system the Chinese want from this aircraft is called SCSS, Story Classic Surveillance System. It is the most sophisticated electronics surveillance and communications reception technology ever constructed.
It has the ability to intercept and decode transmissions.
It can locate the source of the transmissions and automatically translate from any language into English. It can pick up computer transmissions, telephone and fax transmission, and long wave transmissions from submarines. In short, this device can intercept any electronics communications generated anywhere on the planet, underneath the ocean, and even in outer space. There has never been anything like it. It is estimated to be 20 years ahead of any other similar technology.
The reason why Washington wasn't able to get this device to China through the usual illicit means is that it is proprietary to the National Security Agency. They're the ones who control these devices and they're the ones who build these devices.
Its capabilities are truly fantastic -- simultaneous translation in all languages from any intercepts -- underwater traffic, cable traffic, email traffic, telephone traffic, and satellite traffic. And it can also pinpoint the location of where the transmission originates.
The National Security Agency has been consistently opposed to the Washington policy of covertly arming China. NSA does not have the same vested interest that those in the shadows of the White House and the Department of Defense have in arming China.
It must be remembered that the modus operandi is to rearm China and to make China the bogeyman of the 21st century, so everybody can start making money again. Essentially it's an effort to turn back the clock.
NSA does not have a vested interest in this because it doesn't need to operate from a large covert infrastructure. It doesn't have to generate illicit covert monies the way others do. It's not like the CIA or Department of Defense. It is really a more technically oriented agency dealing in electronics. It doesn't deal in a lot of field intelligence and the sales of weapons and narcotics to produce illegal covert revenue streams pursuant to the sustenance of illegal illicit or surreptitious State policy. It is more of a technical adjunct and therefore the NSA doesn't have this vested interest.
The SCSS is proprietary technology built by the NSA. It's built by a shadowy electronics company known as Vtek Industries, which is secretly controlled by the NSA. It's so tightly controlled that the DoD and others in Washington haven't been able to get their hands on it.
This SCSS system is also the same system used in the NSA Westar 7 satellite, which has the ability to monitor all telephone communications on earth. Unlike the Echelon system, which is an invasive system, the SCSS is a passive intelligence gathering system.
The Chinese F8 fighters, which supposedly forced the Aries II to land, are knock-offs of early MIG-21 jets from about 1961.
The US Government is saying that the two Chinese F8 fighters were on "routine patrol"(you could ask -- how do they know that?) and one of them collided with the EP-3E.
They're not mentioning the fact that the Chinese actually scrambled the aircraft out of their airbase on Hainan Island to intercept the Aries II, even though the aircraft was over international waters.
The electronic countermeasure capability of this aircraft is so advanced and the Chinese ECCM (electronic counter-counter measure) is so antiquated that it is in fact possible that the only way the Chinese aircraft could do anything would be to ram the US aircraft..
The Aries II ECM capability would have completely fried out the fire and control mechanisms of the F8. They couldn't have fired. They couldn't have locked on the radar and target imaging system. The only thing they could have done to be a threat is to have rammed the aircraft.
That part of the story has plausibility, but now they're saying the contact was accidental.
How do you make "accidental" contact with weather conditions of a brilliant clear sky and unlimited ceiling?
They would have visually seen it from a long way off, since it's a large aircraft.
The other explanation is that the Chinese aircraft was letting the Aries II know that if they didn't fly to Hainan Island that the Chinese pilots were prepared to sacrifice their lives and ram the plane. In other words, "your ECM technology may have fried our fire and control mechanism and our target imaging system but we will still ram you."
The Chinese pilots didn't have the bigger picture. They were scrambled out on a mission and sent after this aircraft with the instructions to force this aircraft to land on Chinese territory by any means necessary.
It's also unlikely that the Navy personnel on the Aries II knew the reasons. It's probably only the shadowy unidentified non-Navy extra personnel who knew what was going on. Therefore the Navy personnel didn't really have any choice. It was either fly the plane to Chinese territory -- or get rammed.
These are the issues the US Government is dancing around. And just like the Hanssen case, the more the government talks about this incident, the more they contradict what they said before.
First they said there were 24 people on the aircraft. Then when everyone noticed the aircraft complement of people was less, they said there were additional non-Navy personnel, which they weren't prepared to identify. Then suddenly the F8s were on patrol. Then they admitted that they were scrambled out. Then they said, the plane had to make an emergency landing.
The Department of Defense briefing stated that the plane was in "severe distress" and "They were going down and they had to make an emergency landing" when they were able to fly an additional 76 miles.
This always happens because you've got the State Dept issuing press releases. You've got Defense issuing press releases. The Navy is issuing press releases. And as always in government, they don't coordinate the lies.
Everyone has different agendas, and consequently there isn't any cooperation for the LCC. The LCC (Lie Coordination Committee) function doesn't work And this really exists. Usually it comprises one of the Deputy Assistant Secretaries of each agency in the cabinet.
The problem is when there are so many turf battles and cases of inter-agency rivalry, these agencies have different agendas and the normal Lie Coordination function doesn't work.
Most recently, the Navy has issued another contradicting statement -- that contrary to public knowledge, the aircraft was not fitted with an explosive self-destruct mechanism.
The Navy spokesman actually said that the self-destruct mechanism in the aircraft consisted in having a hammer at every operating station. Every operating station comes with its own emergency hammer that's built into it.
The instructions on the hammer state that if there's any chance that the plane will fall into hostile hands, the station operator is instructed to "take the hammer and beat the ever loving piss out of this piece of equipment."
In fact the Department of Defense issued a statement that as the plane was being escorted to Chinese territory, the crew was supposed to be taking their hammers and beating the piss out of their stations. Why did the aircraft personnel wait until the aircraft was on the ground before attempting to destroy the equipment, while armed Chinese troops were entering the aircraft?
The DoD has repeatedly stated the level of technology is so advanced that if it were to fall into hostile hands, it would seriously impact US offensive military capabilities for a decade. Therefore, either the Department of Defense is over-hyping this equipment. Or someone in Washington wanted this equipment to be in Chinese hands. There is no other explanation.
And here's the ludicrous context of this ludicrous story.
With the most secret electronics surveillance system in existence - for which crews are supposed to become expendable, before the equipment falls into enemy hands, the only self-destruct mechanism, according to the Department of Defense, is a spare hammer with the instructions on the label "to beat the ever loving piss out of it..."
This is not your ordinary hammer, but a "special" Department of Defense hammer, which undoubtedly cost the American taxpayer $600.
But the real operating protocol for the emergency procedures of the Aries II -- if there is any possibility that the aircraft should become involved in a situation wherein said technology may fall into hostile hands -- the crew becomes completely expendable.
They are to undertake whatever measures are necessary to prevent this equipment from falling into hostile hands. In other words, the technology on this aircraft is so sophisticated that it is CL-1 (Compartmentalized Level 1) technology, the highest possible classification that exists.
The people who fly the Aries II surveillance aircraft equipped with this technology are essentially operating on a wartime protocol, while flying parallel to the coast of a hostile nation. They must counter any threat to this technology by its destruction.
If the Department of Defense claims that the aircraft doesn't have an explosive self- destruct mechanism, the question remains - why didn't they just let the plane go into the ocean?
The crew's lives are immediately expendable upon threat, which means that they are to expend their lives to prevent the technology and equipment in question from falling into hostile hands. So why is the crew still alive?
And why is the aircraft still intact?
As it stands, they've only confirmed our worst fears that ehy have no hesitation in escalating what is essentially a non-incident into a full-scale international crisis. There is no way Congress will refuse to sell anything to taiwan now.
This is is not the worst fear of those in power. It is their greatest hope. They have ties to arms manufacturers, and potential war means they make lots of money.
The US are indeed a melting pot of people, but it is NOT a melting pot of ideas. The American-type of democracy is extremely peculiar is the sense that it enforces everyone, whatever his country of origin, to endorse the same ethics, the same beliefs, the same values. Conformity is king in the US. And, sadly, conformity is necessary to make the American system work.
As usual, see Tocqueville's "Democracy in America" for an explanation on why it is that way.
PS: FYI, countries like Britain and France (where, for example, Islam is now the 1st practicing religion) are proportionally every bit as universal and multiracial as the US.
It is amazing how misinformed, and actually brainwashed you can be.
This story is quite old now, so I'm not sure if you're gonna read it anymore. If you do, tell me, and I will make a detailed answer this afternoon, for each of your points. The bottom line is that your perception of America and of the rest of the world are preposterous.
All right, if all you have to answer is insults, I'll play the troll with you:
Political innovations? What have these innovations been since, for example, the end of WWII?
Technical innovations? You don't need a great independance of mind and anticonformity for that. And don't exagerate the amount of technical innovation. If it was possible to compute such a thing as a ratio of technical innnovation/capita, you'd be surprised how the US are behind Japanese, German, French, Britons or Scandinavians.
Cultural innovation? Indeed, the US is the land of popular culture. Exactly because it has created a conformist society where all kinds of sophistications, aristocratic influences, and elitist tendencies, real excentricities, radical questioning, have disappeared. Sometimes for the worse, but in general for the best. But the dominance of US popular culture is exactly a symptom of its homogeneity.
The delusion that the US are innovative come from the fact that the US can set the tone, being extremely influential and powerful thanks to the fact that it is the only rich Western nation with such a huge size and population. But, all in all, it is one of the most static society in its way of life and societal habits since its great leap forward in civilization that occured now more that 200 years ago.
Hmmm maybe JonKatz could just move to China...he seems to think that the US should apologize for something that is not our fault. And, not, our army is not trying to be "macho" by not giving into a communist country's ridiculous demands. It appears that Jon is very gullible to what the media tells him. Oh well, whats new?
Your God can go to hell. Stop "witnessing" on Slashdot.
At least he has the courage to say it, even though he probably knew he'd get flamed. That's more than I can say for you since you posted under AC. If you're going to flame have the balls to use your login.
Actually, I'm not a christian. And if you check my Karma or my user number you'll see that this IS the account that I use on a daily basis. I'm not trolling, you are. Check the facts before you open your mouth and prove your foolishness. When did I say an entire nation was an Enemy?
I'm sorry that this particular pilot flew so close on previous occasions that our pilots could get his email address.
I'm sorry you have no understanding of logic: he flew by close before, so he did this time?
I'm sorry that you took no corrective action when we complained about this pilot before.
I'm sorry that you don't understand the concept of a soverign nation, and that China doesn't have to do what the U.S. says.
I'm sorry that you are holding 24 Americans as hostage, and have violated american sovereign territory by boarding our plane.
I'm sorry that you're idiotic enough to believe that U.S. planes are soverign territories. Let's see some examples from previous times.
Furthermore, I'm sorry that you have killed millions of your own people in your cultural revolution and great leaps forward.
I'm sorry that you've decided to bring up unrelated past deeds to justify your position. Oh, and I'm sorry that the U.S. had similar programs of marginalization and extermination for the native Americans. I'm doubly sorry that the U.S. put loyal Japanese citizens into concentration camps, Nazi-Germany style, during WWII.
I'm sorry that you persecute religious minorities such as the Fulan Gong, Christians and Muslims.
I'm sorry that the U.S. population persecutes atheists, Satanists, Wiccans, and pretty much anything not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
I'm sorry that you feel you can impose your will on the people of Tibet and Taiwan.
Me too. I'm also sorry that the U.S. is still whole. After all, the North imposed its will on the south!
I'm sorry that you use prison labor and export those products to my country.
I'm sorry that in the U.S. prisons, heterosexuals are often forced into physically coersive homoerotic relationships, including rape. Oh, as a bonus: I'm sorry that the U.S. regularly imprisonates numerous non-violent drug offenders.
Please note my sincere regret at your _sad_ debating abilities, and I humbly await your gracious forgiveness.
He obviously flew close this time. In fact, he hit our plane.
:-)
With no evidence to back it up. Because it happened before, it did again? Great logic. Are you sure you're not deficient?
Which wasn't the point. The point was that China was engaging in reckless endangerment of flights in international airspace. The point was that the Chinese had ample warning that such an accident was just waiting to happen.
Which begs the question. China is still an independent nation, free to do as it desires.
Which wasn't the point of the comment, of course.
which is why you did spend the greater part of your post on it.
Persecute atheists, you must be joking. And I really don't recall any 'wiccans' being sent to jail for being Wiccans. You are stretching mightily.
Athesists, admitted ones, are not elected to office. NO chance. As for Wiccans, a teenage girl recently was driven to suicide due to repeated tauntings about her religion. You read the news?
Do you have any evidence that such drug offenders are treated more gently in China?
What does that have to do with the US's behavior? Like I said, you're command of logic is sad.
I have do not know why you consider the US your bete noire. But you lack the persipicacity you claim, and have offered only ersatz erudition. An epigone, in other words. In plainer language, you seem to have delusions of adequacy regarding your facility with logic.
HAHAHAHAAHA! I can smell the fear. How long did that journey through the thesaurus take? Oh, and how does my lack of "persipicacity" with regard to the US relate to my "facility with logic?" Does it not show at best (for your argument) that I'm uninformed about the US, not unable to argue logically? Thanks again for proving just who's the one that has no idea how to argue.
Ta!
Why do they talk about two super powers? The US is the only remianing super power. China is a developing country whose military and economic resources dwarf the US. Stop refering to it as a super power.
Hey, all China did was "Move MiG, for great justice!!" (sorry, couldn't resist...)
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
There's a difference. Japan may have been our economic rival during the eighties, but not since WWII have they considered us their enemy. China DOES consider the US its enemy, and has the nukes pointed at us to back it up, thanks in no small part to Mr. Clinton.
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
Keep in mind that the Aegis' advanced radar systems could be used in conjunction with the US missle defense system.
--
Wooden armaments to battle your imaginary foes!
- A mig, not a spy plane.
- The pilot was defecting - he wasn't forced to land.
Next time, get your facts straight.No, you are not dumb. Hyperreal is not a word. God only knows what Katz has decided it means. What I think is so funny about it, though, is the way he uses it over and over, like its a word we use in conversation at least 50 times a day. I bet its a term he read in some obscure book about how Columbine affected the stock market, which in turn affected the geekdom of Atlanta Braves' pitchers Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine, causing them to lose, thereby leading to a more depressed geek nation in the geek capital of the world, Atlanta, Georgia.
==
==
I don't know exactly what that means, but I'm sure it means something....
Have you ever apologized and found out that's exactly what your opponent LEAST expected? Once caught off-guard, a love fest ensues whereby the red-faced apology demander falls all over himself apologizing for the apology demand.
--- WWSD? What Would Strider Do?
BWAA HA HAA! You might have a point there... :)
...or maybe not.
My guess is, the Chinese pilot made a mistake, misjudging the forward speed of the Orion, and clipped it.
No apologies necessary, it's the way the game is played.
So is the "Can we have our plane back now?" part of the game. "Sure! In crates after we dismantle it!"
...or maybe not.
Then why are you posting on this story?
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." - Jack Nicholson
It was reported on the News Hour last night that the American pilot said he slowed down when the Chinese fighter plane came up fast behind. If this is the case, it suggests to me that the American pilot was somewhat responsible for the accident/incident.
Imagine you're driving down the road and some jerk zooms up behind you. Now if you hit your brakes, you've actually CAUSED the ensuing accident. Let's leave legal responsibility to the lawyers. But common sense says you are responsible.
--------------
to err is human, to forgive is divine, to forget is... umm...
Of course, it's not like the American Air Force ever accidentally crash, like into cable-car lines killing civilians, or into a private plane killing its pilot, or into Scottish mountains killing themselves, now, is it...
It's not like they ever accidentally kill their allies by shooting mavericks at clearly marked allied troop carriers now, is it...
Even your navy has got into the accidentally crashing into people lark now, by taking out a trawler.
It's strange that this should happen days after the US Government declared that China was "The Enemy", really. I'm sure had a Chinese spy plane landed in US territory it would have been picked down to the last rivet by now, and there'd be one hell of a fuss about returning the crew.
I'm sure the US wouldn't return the Chinese aircrew of this putative scenario as quickly as the US want China to return their air crew.
Bush is an arse of the highest order, and the sooner you lot get rid of him the quicker the rest of the world can sleep safely in our beds... That's if our beds are not underwater by then because of Bush being King Polluter!
Hacker: A criminal who breaks into computer systems
"Information wants to be paid"
This troll should never have been moderated so high, clearly slashdot is still highly american biased. None the less...
If we don't start declaring open war on countries that disrespect our sovereignty, then foreign countries will think they can get away with pissing us off.
Would sending spy planes to your country for no better reason than disagreement with the fundamental philosophy of your government (democracy) qualify? And if so, would you be nice enough to let the offending country off the hook for the mere price of an appology?
Wake up and smell the chemical weapons. americans seem to lack the ability to objectively look at themselves in relation to the world around them, but you can't argue with the harsh slap of reality. The rapid pace of development of weaponry around the world has produced a big standoff, and over time the number of countries participating in this standoff will only increase. But nothing will happen. Nothing ever does.
As for your last comment, your homework assignment for tonight is to read about the war of 1812. You were just as cocky back then, and just as wrong.
----- sXe
You realize, don't you, that by issuing the type of apology that China is insisting on, the US will then be open to lawsuits for reparations. Are you going to cover that expense?
What _you_ my dear friend don't seem to have included in your text above is the fact that americans (actually irish, british, french and spanish leftovers) so not realise is that there's about 1300000000 chinese and about the same number (minus the leading 1) of americans. What you also seem to have chosen to conveniently forget is the moment where that very same conservative president (we prefer to call them IQ-deficient individuals in the blob that you refer to as "the rest of the world") told "Blob, (i.e. the rest of the world) screw you if I'm going to lower my gas emissions".
Well, maybe your "New York Times" should print in big, bold, times new roman
"America - screw you if I'm going to release those soldiers"
or perhaps
"Who's laughing now?"
or maybe...
"He who dares, Rodders, he who dares..."
________
Does anyone actually have a Java program designed to control air traffic, or for the operation of a nuclear facility?
You seem to have forgotten that FDR's "New Deal" and his Federal Works Program played a very large part in revitalizing the economy.
The defense industry brought us to the post-war prosperity era of the late 40's and early 50's. Without this shot in the arm, the economy would have recovered in time; just not as quickly.
After all, as our current recession illustrates, consumer confidence drives the economy. FDR's programs gave people what they wanted: jobs, income, food, and shelter.
People with their needs met buy more luxury goods and services, creating jobs in those industries, resulting in more people that can afford such luxuries. Etc, etc, etc.
Our current economic woes are largely due to a lack of investor/consumer confidence in the tech sector that has had it's impact on the rest of our economy.
Of course the feedback loop that we're ignoring is one I've just fallen prey to myself: somone makes jackass comments and 5 or more feel the need to point out flaws in same.
Sigh. I really should know better.
The US would have to be an ambitious dictatorship that was threatening its neighbors (viz, the Spratley Island disputes with several countries, plus the Taiwan dispute) and it would have to have a record of slaughtering its own citizens, trampling human rights, and breaking promises not to test nuclear devices. Furthermore it would have to have a highly unstable command structure which included warmongering and nationalistic leaders of the military. In other words, the US would have to be like China.
Then China would have to be a treaty-abiding, reliable, stable, democratic, responsible country with the ability, the restraint, and the mandate to maintain security and stability in a world where other countries were not able to do so. In other words, China would have to be like the US.
If this was the picture, then, maybe, it might be conceivable that China would conduct survelliance somewhere off our coasts. Only with such a picture could we begin to talk about turning the tables.
Also, NBC Nightly News reported on Saturday that the CIA had been running a profile on the Chinese pilot Wang Wei for months and thought him to be overly aggressive and quite possibly schizophrenic.
BigCat79
BigCat79
"The dead have risen and are voting Republican!" --Bart Simpson
Quick rant. I want to know why every one thinks that the US government can hide everything? China can. Their government runs the media. But in the US the president can't keep it quiet that he got a BJ from an intern? How the hell do they expect the government to hide alien landings for over 50 years and the 'CIA conspiracy to kill JFK' for almost 40? It just blows my mind. End Rant.
BigCat79
BigCat79
"The dead have risen and are voting Republican!" --Bart Simpson
I now see what your detractors see. You share a trait with that Chinese pilot that I didn't pick up until now. Perhaps the three of us share that trait. You're a doofus, and here's why:
Jon, can you tell me what spy plane flap you're talking about? That word, spy implies espionage, covert operations, stealing into enemy territory to spirit away secrets. I don't know of any spy plane "flap" as you say.
Instead, I see a situation where a slothful and lumbering surveillance plane was struck by a much more agile airplane. I don't know where you live, Jon, but around here (Melbourne, FL) we see P-3s all the time. They're large and slow, with four turboprop engines. They're about the size of a medium airliner.
Spy planes rely on speed and stealth to carry out their mission. It seems odd, I wrote that very same sentence to a local TV reporter yesterday for exactly the same reasons I write it now. P-3s are neither speedy or stealthy. Spy planes enter enemy airspace and perform their missions there. The P-3 entered Chinese airspace only after sustaining damage by that doofus flying their interceptor/escort plane that made returning to their home base impossible.
Furthermore, what do you think is more likely: (a) Our P-3, plodding along at maybe 250 miles per hour, knocked their interceptor, capable of Mach 2 perhaps, out of the sky, or (b) Some undertrained, overzealous doofus flew his interceptor, capable of Mach 2 perhaps, into our P-3 as it plodded along at maybe 250 miles per hour?
What's all the teary-eyed left-wing mamby-pamby crap about saying, "sorry?" Call a spade a spade, and have the Chinese say, "Our pilot was a doofus!" It's over. Do you think they really care about a pilot? It's China! They've got pilots (and everybody else) out of their ears, or so they think. What's their human rights track record? What about their "one child" policy? Do you think they care about people? Finally, what makes you think that we don't understand the Chinese? What have honor, face, and responsibility to do with this? If honor, face, and responsibility were truly important, perhaps they'd better train their interceptor pilots. If honor, face, and responsibility were real, perhaps they'd not jail people that lead bible studies other than state-sanctioned ones. If honor, face, and responsibility were real, they'd not need tanks in Bejing. If honor, face, and responsibility were real they'd not detain visitors from the United States of Chinese origin. If honor, face, and responsibility they'd not sell weapons to terrorists. If honor, face, and responsibility they'd be a lot different than they are today.
- U-2s are spy planes
- SR-71s are spy planes
P-3s are NOT spy planes. They're Patrol aircraft, designed for long-time loitering over water looking for submarines. This one had been fitted with radio receivers so that it could record transmissions. If anything, it could be called a surveillance plane, but not a spy plane."because one culture can't apologize for an obvious accident and the other culture insists that only an apology can end the crisis."
If we apologize, it will be seen as an admission of wrongdoing, a confession. I wonder how China would treat the troops once they are confessed criminals? Reminds me of all of the rambo style movies where prisoners are "pressured" to confess so that they may get less severe punishment.
China sucks ass.
No I was saying one (98% probabe) reason it wasn't picked up was that he is unreliable.
THere was a story on the drudge report website yesterday about how the us plane tried to head away from china after the collision but was forced down by the remaining fighter. The story is no longer linked on his site. Does anyone have the text of this? I wonder if this is not picked up on by the more mainstream media because it is unreliable, or because they are news twisting asslickers with thier own agendas.
I think the idea is to try to not get noticed...
The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.
Damn people, he quoted the Simpsons at the end of that post, and he still got some of you to bite.
.. a superpower?
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
http://www.almartinraw.com/column12.html
George Bush = Zero Confidence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._Election_c
Holy shit! I don't think I've ever seen a Canadian become rude. Are you sure your Canadian?
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
I am absolutely certain that the Americans being held hostage in China care a great deal who's fault it was. I was in the Air Force, and I know many people who serve on air crews. They would not want their country to apologize for this incident, especially since that would mean blaming the hostages for the accident! Personal pride aside, these men and women want to come home, but with their honor and their country's honor intact.
Nick http://www.nickspace.com
Much neater and cleaner:
We apologise for all or any US actions that lead to the collision.
What would Lemmy do?
This type of accidents has not happened before. US spy plane crashed with China's Military plane. No matter if it was a spy mission from the US, or it was just some sort of routine mission that US claimed to be, no one really wants this type of accidents to happen. (And certainly, no one wants this to happen again.)
However, I think both countries are trying to make the history here:
If it was not a spy plane, there would be some sort of US Flag (or US military logo) on the plane, wasn't it? Then boarding on the plane would violate International Law. But if it was a spy plane, then obviously there was no sign. A plane like this entered your area and landed, you would go see what the hack it came from and arrest all those people on the plane right?
If you are trying to do business with the other country, do you really want to 'spy' on them?
If it was still Bill Clinton the president instead of Bush Jr., what would have happened?
Bill Clinton opened up most parts of Asia when he was the president, now Bush is trying to close it all down?
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Mathematics will always come back to hunt you down, in so many ways
I demand that you apologize!
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They have no where near the military or economic resources of the United States. US military spending is about 4 times greater than China's. Any national security expert will tell you that the US is unquestionably the worlds only remaining superpower at the moment.
void theoremProver(){
print "this product is correct"
}
Maybe we do... Maybe we don't... But what do I care? You don't really exist.
Bush and his advisors set it up so they could smear China right proper, the way they've been planning to all along, but didn't have a mandate to do.
The Chinese clearly instigated this; just think of what they've got to gain. They're looking at four years of Bush - time to push his nose in the dirt now. Bush also scares the Chinese - Cheney, Rumsfeld and Powell are either from or formed by the generation that broke the Soviet Unions back. Better teach the Americans a lesson early on, and dictate terms for the next four years.
I think its a pretty murky situation all around, and the truth is not in the middle of the two alternatives I've presented - but at one end.
Simply put, someone screwed up. Brinksmanship failed here, and one side has found itself backed into a corner that they created and now they don't know how to get out.
It will be interesting to see how this shakes out, but it wouldn't surprise me to see those poor airmen (and women) detained for a long, long time.
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China would do the same if it had the technical capabilities to do so.
You're saying that China doesn't have any airplanes to bother us with? Sure they do, but if they did we'd have them destroyed before they got within sight of our coast. and if they were spy planes, they probably wouldn't be allowed to leave China. Everyone speaks of international standards and international airspace and that's fine, but the US holds a double standard. I think it's time that the Chinese and our other worldly competetors did start flying spy missions over the US. We've been doing it for decades.
"If you're not having fun right now, you're wasting your time."
Thank you. In your post I finally see true intelligence.
"If you're not having fun right now, you're wasting your time."
Launch a tomahawk in there and destroy the plane on the runway. Problem solved ....
Got Code?
1) USA should apologise - they killed a Chinese pilot off the coast of China - what would happen if it was the other way around ?
Nothing. The media would make a little noise about it for a few days (if that), and then it would just go away.
2) China should apologise for the fighter pilot being too cocky and crashing.
But they are asking _us_ for an apology, not vice versa!
3) They both should apologise
If a few shallow words can advert war, then I'd agree. But the odds of getting the Chineese to actually say "sorry" (or better yet, hand over the plane _in_one_peice_) are slim to none.
4) China should release the airmen, but keep the plane
Yes, Clinton didn't sell enough military secrets, so the rest let's just give them in sympathy.
5) America shouldn't be a bully
America isn't the bully, it's a cowardice child.
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Great, now all we need is George W. on TV repeating: "There is no China.... There is no China..."
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For an alternate point of view, a rather liberal Chinese news site, People's Daily Online. This site is supposed to be quite radical, and not strongly moderated by the Chinese government. Here is an interesting article in english representing how the chinese think about these matters.
24 people are being held because china is trying to get all the tech they can from that plane.
Intelligence/Counterintelligence 101:
All countries spy on us, and we spy on all countries. We know this. We even know who the spies are. We don't stop them, because all the other countried know who our spies are, and they'd stop our spies. It isn't like Mission Impossible or James Bond.
The point is, that they probably know about the technology anyway. Otherwise, the E-3 would be flying around Area51, not China. I agree that we should get those soldiers home, but it isn't about the technology. Its about the politics.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
This story was completely blown up by the media. It isn't a major issue, but without a war, the media always tries to start one. If the media didn't make this into some super-power trial, then the US would-of quietly apologized and everyone would be happy.
/.
And Katz? He loves to take something the media blows up to make a controversial article in
At least stick to technology or science, or even linux next time, Jon! This crap isn't for nerd discussion, its just normal politics.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
but if we ran into them, what do you think the military specialist would do? Admit fault, or come up with as many reasons they can to prove it wasn't our fault?
Same with the media.
It all doesn't matter, though, because the illuminati controls it all and will determine the outcome. FNORD!
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
I am Canadian too and this guy is right!
Actually he's exagerating, but Canadians do tend to back down even when they're right.
Just look at the growing softwood lumber dispute between Canada and the USA. Canada has proven its case 3 TIMES with the WTO and NAFTA, but the coporate special interests in the US want to make yet another unfounded complaint. And what are Canadians doing? Well, the ones in BC are whining and bitching that we should cave.
Of course in this case we're not going to because the federal government doesn't give a damn about the west coast and so *they* don't actually have anything to lose.
Fair warning, my family is actually involved in the lumber industry in British Columbia, but I STRONGLY disagree with the position of many BC mills that we should cave.
The truth matters and you shouldn't hide it. That means Canada should not apologize for subsidizing and industry when it doesn't and the US should not apologize for violating international law when they have done no such thing.
Internation Airspace!
Chinese had most maneuverable craft!
END OF STORY!
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That's not a very good argument. Apparently all countries have agreed upon 12 miles off their coast as being theirs. China is claiming more than that. By your logic if a Chinese plane files 100 miles off the coast of California we can shoot it down and claim it was fair game. I think that most countries would agree that the US was flying over International waters.
The US plane was intercepting electronic communications originating in China, i.e. spying.
One definition of spying (from Dictionary.com) defines spying as: One who secretly keeps watch on another or others.
They always knew were we there. We didn't have to hide, b/c we were in International waters. No secret here. Perhaps you could call it spying if they didn't know we were there (ie by sending something a tad more stealthy than the 4 prop job they sent to do their routine recon flights..
but the americans are sufficiently outside the recognized territory, that they can't do much other than make sure the american know that they know.....
So are you now saying that China is recognizing that the US was over International waters??
The americans decide to teach the fighter pilot a lesson and do a little wing waggle or the like to give him a scare. Nobody here has ever had the temptation to pull on their car's emergency brake while some idiot is tailgating, right?
The only people tempted to pull emergency brakes on a tailgater are the irresponsible ones. Perhaps that seems logical to you, but for something like organized military it makes no sense at all. :)
That being said, there wer 24 people on board that plane. That's alot of lives at stake.. You shouldn't base your thoughts on Top Gun.
The American public, due to cultural reasons and media induced propaganda won't stand for an apology, as it was obviously solely the responsibility of the Chinese pilot. I have heard no mention of the acceptability of the spying mission.
This is nonsense. If our fighters were flying around a big, slow Chineses plane and a collision occured, I'd be highly suspicious that our guy caused the collision. At any rate, if we thought that we were at fault, we would have apologized. We most certainly wouldn't hold someone for a mere 'apology'.
My guess is that the Fighter jock was trying to scare the bejesus out of the americans, and the americans reacted somewhat predictably.
I haven't heard anyone, from either sides, claim this.
Predictably? WTF? Maybe in a movie.
Why do I keep typing pythong?
> Maybe you missed it, but this is peacetime.
And how many men and women gave their lives during the so called "peacetime" of the cold war?
If you start to think that everything in the world is safe just we have not declared a formal act of war you are sadly mistaken.
Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
Here here...I have long since wondered about the decision to land in China. Was it a sound decision, imho not at all. Many would point to to the safety of the crew being paramount but I find this argument incorrect.
Being in the military is not the same as other jobs where you can expound upon safety as the end all be all of concerns. Rather your job is to go into harms way and do the best you can about it.
This whole situation seems very orchestrated to me and even though as a US citizen I know sure and true that 99% of the time our government tells us only what they want us to hear, Chinas track record for honesty leaves a lot to be desired.
Until our crew gets home it will be impossible to say what happened up there and even then the real story would most likely never see any press. Bottom line, we screwed up and China is now milking this for all it's worth.
Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
here's a funny cartoon about the standoff
I understand that a great deal of 'doctrine' has been written on the subject, but seeing we have managed to continue as a world community into the 2100's one would think it would be possible to, well, get along. What is the true value of having enemies? Clearly it keeps the military machine well lubed, but there are the unaffiliated enemies , terrorists, which are just as much a threat to all the superpowers, Asian and Anglo. What is really the point? This event in particular seems to be a loose-loose situation for both parties, whomever is really "guilty" of having done something wrong --> the truth of which will probably be argued for years into the future (since the flight crews are probably bound by secrecy documents to never reveal the truth, etc.). What is really the point! Thorbo
It just does get better than this!
I don't know what planet anyone else lives on, but 'global security' is an illusion. We may clothe it all in wonderous diplomatic and civilized language, but the world is not, nor ever has been a safe place. It wold be wonderful to see a planet where we didn't need to threaten people with nuclear annihalation, but that hope got flushed down the drain when The USSR and the US started seeing who could build the biggest bombs.
I also think that the economic relationship between the US and China is severely flawed and motivated more by the desires of guys like Bill Gates, than by core American values of Liberty and economic freedom. Party bosses get rich over there, not common people. They execute people for being different. Tianamen Square.
If anyone thinks that a simple apology will fix what happened over international waters with a state who has a history of aggressive and unsafe air engagements, I have some great seaside property and a bridge for sale...on the moon. We have a while generation that has been raised to believe that you 'give peace a chance' . We did and it looks very much like China broke it. :-(
Let's get this straight: US China policy needs to be based on more than who is going to make a ton of money in the deal.
In space, no one can hear you moo.
Um... it's a common 4-prop plane, and the "highly secret spying equipment" was probably just radio surveillance gear that was made in Taiwan. If the Chinese can learn anything from common hardware like that, then they must be further behind us than we suspected.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
I seriously hope that China is smart enough not to let it come to that.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Wen Ho Lee was not a Chinese spy. (Actually, like many Taiwanese, he is perhaps unduly paranoid about the mainland.) He was basically a fall guy - the victim in the Clinton Administration's attempt to appease Republican critics. When all was said and done, it turned out all they could nail him with was the improper handling of information that is already in the public domain. See for example this page , this one or this one. The judge in the case used sentencing as an opportunity to give Lee an apologetic speech about the government's abuses in the case. He was sentenced to perform time already served (in other words, allowed to walk) as punishment for unauthorized possession of data, for which he plead guilty. The original charges contained 59 counts.
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The government propaganda machine is telling people that the plane was invading Chinese airspace, spying, and maneuvering agressively against the F-8 buzzing by. The purpose of this version of events is to portray the US as a bully.
There is another point that I haven't seen raised in this discussion yet. President Jiang has been out of the country during much of these events, and the PLA has probably had considerable control over the way this is being handled. The PLA leadership is full of hard-liners who, compared to Jiang, are much more nationalist and belligerant toward the US. The PLA has considerable power and independence, unlike the US military, which is under civilian control. Another factor is that Jiang isn't very respected in China.
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Damn good thing, that. Mao's "Great Leap Forward" caused the biggest famine in human history; he presided over a laogai system which claimed well over 10 million lives; and his "Cultural Revolution" also murdered over 10 million people. Moreover he helped instigate the death and enslavement of millions of Koreans in order to expand communism's influence. Tens of millions fled in desparation to Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malaysia, and even the US. Good riddance to the bloodiest tyrant ever, Mao Tse-Tung.
The capitalist roaders in the party that Mao called upon the masses to overthrow did exactly as he warned they would when they came to power (after his death in 1976)
Yeah, they put a lid on all the dying and suffering, and the living standard in China is finally rising steadily now that they're somewhat less communist.
In light of the tens of millions of victims of Chinese communism, I declare that you, P30P73Z-H4X0R are one sick and twisted individual for defending history's most prolific[*]mass murderer, Mao. You are a complete shame an d disgrace.
(It's not a flame if it's completely true.)
[*] or possibly the second most prolific mass murderer.
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However it seems a pity that the economic advancement (steady and about as sustainable as it gets) has been thrown out with this new ability to know right and wrong.
The late 90's into 2000 brought a new successful economy, including the Free Software revolution, which one felt sad to see discarded. It needed seemless global cooperation. Of course we were so naive then not being able to understand how we were being duped by the Chinese, rogered by the Russians, etc :-)
For the loss of economic opportunity, one wonders whether it would have been better to remain naive ;-)
We know now that the U.S. plane was on auto-pilot during the "interception". We also know that the Chinese fighter made three close-in passes with an average clearance of less than five feet! On the last pass the Chinese fighter finally came into contact with our plane and almost killed everyone on board. All this happened in international airspace, not Chinese airspace.
These are Communists, folks. Never forget that. Telling lies is their way of life- not just a way to get out of stupid decisions.
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China is not like the Nazi's. China did not murder millions of it's own citizens and invade her neigbours like Hitler's Germany did.
The Nazi's were counter humanity and created the worst evil in history. However you dislike the Chinese, you can't compare them to those monsters.
By comparing things to the Nazi's, which are incomparable, you cheapen the suffering of the victims of the Nazi Holocaust and give Neo-Nazi's some form of credibility which they do not deserve.
Do you know any other fairy tales?
If the Chinese fighter pilot was trying to play chicken with a P-3, then he was incompetent and stupid. :)
Yes. And we apologized.
Tell me, what color is the sky in your world? Countries spy on each other all the time. There are Russian "fishing boats" parked just off shore of the United States right now. There were Chinese spies working at Sandia Labs. There are satellites taking high-resolution photographs of military bases everywhere. And I hate to tell you this, but as long as you are in international waters/airspace, there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. All you can do is let the watchers know that they are being watched in turn, such as by shadowing a surveillence aircraft with your jets. Of course, your pilots should be good enough to not crash into the aforementioned surveillence plane...
I think it is too steep a price. We didn't do anything wrong (for a change). As soon as we apologize, we admit guilt.
What if you were walking around outside a prison and the guards came out, threw you in a cell, and said "We'll let you go, if you publicly admit that you are a child rapist"?
P-3 not E2. Different planes. :)
Um. You do realize that countries (not just the US) spy on each other all the time, right? Remember the Chinese spy who got a job at Sandia Labs?
So if we can find other countries that accept the "international airspace" concept, your argument falls apart, right? I mean, like if the soviet union didn't argue the point and even sent its own aircraft down our border in "international airspace", that would sort of imply their understanding of it, yes?
The plane was there listening in on radiant energy that China was sending out. If China doesn't like it, they can stop sending the signals out. If China is so "innocent", why are they stripping the plane? If spying is so abhorrent to them, why not just leave the plane sit where it is and not touch it? You don't think that it is maybe a golden opportunity for China to improve its own intelligence gathering abilities do you?
I don't really care if china strips the plane and returns it in boxes to the U.S.. Historically each side having approximately equal technology prevents big wars from creeping up.
But they need to return our service men and women. It's hard to exercise international diplomacy when the other side is holding hostages.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
Yes most governments are intrinsically Nationalistic.. it's pretty much how they are defined. I do not see why it should come as a shock that we haven't reached a point where governments will stop posturing and beating their chests. Until there are no governments or nations they will always act that way.
I for one would love a Utopic Anarchy but realize that until a lot of things change some asshole goverment will fill the void where the previous one existed.. and billions of backwards morons all over the world will still cling to their lame identification with their Nation, Religion, Race or other dumbass self imposed limitations.
Hell, most of the worlds population doesn't have net access let alone a computer; so the digital world breaking down national bounderies is going to be a long time coming.
The outlook is bleak, most people are stupid, spiteful, hateful, prejudicial assholes. If some dumb global conflict doesn't erupt in this century.. you can bet your bottom dollar one will come along in the next or the one after that.
Also - I am dumb and do not understand your constant usage of the word hyperreal. Do you mean more real than real? Excessively real perhaps? What is the point? Is that something you ripped off Chomsky or something?
There is no such thing as "the truth". What matters is what people believe and what you yourself believe. Both the U.S. and China have a track record that suggests not to believe too easily what they claim. Since none of us was onboard these planes, we have to resort to attempts of "informed speculation".
U.S. spy operations are at least questionable. Just to name one: Echelon and surrounding rumours about industrial espionage.
The U.S. is spying on China. Is that necessary? Probably. Do you think its ok for your neighbour to spy on you, just so he "feels safer"? Probably not.
1) Anyone who would argue that this situtation was anything but the metaphorical ass in a Ferrarri tearing it up down the interstate and causing an accident with a big rig is a certed idiot.
2) The US filed a complaint with the Chinese over that same pilot earlier in the year over similar behavior. We don't award jackasses medals for roadrage when they get themselves killed, and an idiot in a multimillion dollar fighter jet deserves no different.
3) I don't think that the computer controlled autopilot can be blamed for a midair collision. The US plane was following a set course, no one forced the chinese fighter pilots to get so close to it that physical contact was possible.
Wow, genuine and throughly stupid flamebait.
Maybe you ought to put down your Thesarus and have a look at history son, my good buddy and massmurdering pal Mao did his best to remove all of China's wealth of history from the minds of the people and replace it with his little red book.
"Outward looking nation"? You must have some good drugs, they isolated themselves for longer than the US has existed.
And maybe you missed it, but over the last two years, the "Eastern Tiger" markets have gone down the toilet. Two billion chinese, whose combined legally recognized, natural rights equate to less than that of one US citizen. Must make you proud to be chinese.
iConcur! (simple and to the point :)
Since there is no way to hide the planes, anyway, and we (the US) will no doubt continue to gather intelligence in this fashion, fighter escorts should be provided to safeguard the poor squids within.
Much like our carrier battle groups declare a no-fly zone within a certain distance (100 miles, I think) of the carrier, a safe zone should be declared around our ELINT planes, and if the Chinese pilots want to play around, they can do so against Sidewinders. A much more even match, I think most would agree. *g*
I leave the logistical hurdles of refueling and coordination to our military brothers and sisters :-)
For some reason JK can often get my blood up with his long winded dissertations that completely ignore some common sense issues.
Mind you, I've a thick patriotic streak, but we are talking about an EP-3 "ramming" a F-8 fighter. Correct? Let me give you a clue, the EP-3 is a large lumbering aircraft (it is based off a submarine hunting plane) with four props and a top speed of about Mach 0.7 or so. The F-8 is a jet fighter able to ding around Mach 2.2.
I personally blame the EP-3's captain for this whole mess. It is true that landing at an airport was a safe choice for the crew, but he should have ditched his aircraft in international waters. Right now we would still have a minor mess, but a US task force would be parked over the sunken plane and any surviving crew members would be home with their families. Oh, and China wouldn't be stripping advanced electronics off one of our premiere intelligence birds.
Andrew Borntreger
Andrew Borntreger
Champion of cinematic disasters
It's so interesting to see so many people repeat US news reports as facts. Get real people, you don't get the truth on military issues, both sides lie big time.
A true joke: how do you make friends in a Chinese train without speaking any Chinese? 2 words: America baad. Sad but true.
Hey, pass over that crack pipe full of rice that your smoking!
Dude, read the book The China Threat and tell me that they don't have nationalistic tendancies...
B
Flamebait
Serious inquiries only.
That this happened on April Fools Day. And Mr. Wei, was the fool...
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Flamebait
Serious inquiries only.
Military planes don't usually have black boxes. The USAF is putting them into transports, but not on fighters.
I was in the USAF for 10 years. America has been flying reconnaissance missions in international waters close to the borders of various countries (Russia, China, etc.) for more years than I have been alive (I am 40). This is nothing new folks. We have been "spying" if you want to use that word, since we have had aircraft with the range to do roundtrips from whatever bases we had close to the contries borders. China knows this. Has known it for over 40 years! So please, don't keep referring to this incident as if the Chinese were somehow in the dark and that this is a new phenomena. It is not. Katz, I agree with some of the things you have said. We have promoted our products and goods very hard in other coutries. Hammering governments to open trade to our companies, many times at the expense of other countries cultural heritages. Canada is a case in point. Look how our publishing companies try year after year to flood the markets in Canada with our magazines when they have very little to offer in the way of anything Canadien. But, to say that because we are pigheaded in trade somehow correlates with being dishonest about what we are doing when in international waters is stretching the argument just a little too thin don't you think? Especially when the Chinese have know for 40+ years that we are out there everyday taking pics and scanning their radio broadcasts? Come on! It sounds like you read this book and all of a sudden you are duh,duh,duh,dun! a believer! Well, we understand truth and honesty and a whole lot of other things better than the chinese do. So what if they lose face. They won't let our people go because they know when the truth comes out it will cause them a huge loss of face. Out of the mouths of our airman and the electronics of our black boxes will come the FACT that their pilot was the one who screwed up. The face loss to the world will be tremendous! They have no proof at all that our airman were at fault. None! Just one face-saving chinese pilot trying to blame everything on the US. I don't believe it for a minute. The few facts we do have JUST DON'T FIT the story we are being told. So Katz, go crawl back into your bed, read your book again, and make the world fit your little delusional fantasies. The rest of us know that access to the facts will lead to the truth and that the truth is better than saving face any day.
Real democracy is not representative, it lives in each of us
Well, let's examing both sides of it. On the one hand, it would sure be nice if everyone settled their differences (cultural, ethnic, economic, political, genotypical, etc.) and started really working together. One world government. We probably could do a heck of a lot if that happened. As a single, united world, I don't think there'd be any barrier we couldn't break!
But... what if the government did something so egregious, so revolting, that (some or even many) people could not morally remain citizens subject ot that government? There are three choices: revolution and the inevitable chaos and destruction wrought by warfare; civil disobedience and the equally inevitable incarceration and, if the offense is deemed significant enough, possible execution; or emigration.
But with one world government, where do you emigrate to?
I know I'm going to be blasted for saying this, but in theory, we live in a world where we can move to another country, become citizens of another country, if our government does something which displeases us as citizens. I realize that many do not exactly have this option; that is the crimp in this argument. That leaves for those unfortunates, however, revolution and civil disobedience... and, thus, Tiannamen Square. There is no easy solution for them, and we can only help by raising our voices against their oppressors, and letting them know that we support their fight.
For the rest of us, who can change which government we owe alleigance to, I contend that this is a good thing, that it's something that we should not blithely throw away in a rush to globalization and consolidation. If you have a single monolithic world government, then you can't just say, "Fuq this, I'm going to Canada!" (You certainly can't say, "Fuq this, I'm going to Mars!") We would be in a situation not unlike that of the Chinese students trying to bring democracy to their country, except covert emigration would not even be a remote option.
It's about choice: choosing where you want to live and under what government.
Back to the topic: I fear that this is going to end in blood. China, I think, has stymied organizations such as the Bildergurg Group; the Trilateral Commission does not, IIRC, have any members from China in their number outside of 'participants,' no full members. This makes China extremely hard for the Commission to influence. (If you think I'm being a paranoid conspiracy theorist, please think again. Have a look at the Trilateral Commission's web site and any of a number of sites critical of the influence of the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderburg Group. These are groups of very powerful people, who have close contact and infuence with one another and their countries, and no accountability, not even to their own fellow citizens. These are the people who rally under that old saw, "Greed is good," and run economics for their livings.)
In short, there is not going to be a quick solution, and the UN will not be in a good position to intervene, since the US will adamantly refuse to apologize, and the Chinese will escalate their threats and promises until the US does.
I am hoping and praying that that captives do not become hostages.
--- Chief and Sole Technician, Helpdesk at the End of the World
"I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
For a good discussion on pinyin pronounciation, go to this link.
Humorless sig goes here.
It's supposed to be pronounced "wong". Americans are too stupid or insensitive and pronounce it "wang".
Humorless sig goes here.
They're the type of idiot that makes "ching chong chang" noises whenever they see an Asian person.
Humorless sig goes here.
The transliteration is by the standard way of romanizing Chinese characters. In the standard system "wong" and "wang" are prounounced very differently. It's akin to telling a French person to spell their words in a more English-pronounciation friendly manner. Furthermore, the bastardization of Chinese surnames came about because of the habit of immigration officials early on of writing down whatever they damn well pleased for the spelling of the name.
Humorless sig goes here.
Extract the people with a covert team and bomb the plane on the runway. Case closed.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
So my point is that the Chinese can have the best weapons on earth, but because they treat their people like ants chances are that most of their grunts aren't going to be able to do more than pile their equipment in front of ours to keep us from moving. Still, unless they're ready for overwhelming air power (above SAM height until SAMs are taken out - then lower and harder), they'll never get the chance to use that equipment.
If they value that shiny new space center that could potentially be used to launch nukes, they'd think again. That's got to be tops on the list of things to blow up so they remember what could have been for the next twenty years.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
if they Chinese had the technology to do a 13 mile fly-by of the West Coast, we'd have to let them
Fortunately for us, we've made sure their best technology is making sneakers and barbie dolls! Don't think we have the technology to take them? Their Air Force and Navy are piss poor equipped and their Army only has strength in numbers. This would not be a land war; even if it were, you know what happened to Iraq and Yugoslavia's armies when they tried to go against overwhelming air power followed by armed men.
Those nukes are their only chance but they know if they dared to even twitch them they'd be a second example of the U.S. using nukes to defend itself, and overkill at that.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
As if there is anything we would want to learn from a Chinese or Russian plane held together with shoelaces and spit.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
I would not believe the things China was feeding its people if I were you. "Trust" seems to have been removed from the latest edition of the People's Dictionary.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
China claims that the aircraft was in Chinese airspace when the incident occured.
Now, I know China claims national boundaries exending beyond Tiawan, but I think that many people here should be reminded that there's two sides to the story.
For example, try China.com for a different side of the story, or the BBC for a (reasonably) unbiased take on things.
The thing I find funny about this is that there are 1-metre resolution spy-satelite photographs of the airbase etc. at Janes Defence Weekly (Article), (Pictures), which two years ago no-one would have had access to.
Is there anything which cannot be programmed?
Actually, they re-assembled it, and then 5 years later told the SU what they had done (the SU had no clue it had been taken apart). If I'm not mistaken it took them 48 hours to dismantle, photograph, and then re-assemble. Pretty interesting case, the one you sight, for a variety of reasons.
Um, not quite. You have your scale backward. I race canoes for fun, and we have to make damn sure to stay out of the shipping lanes, 'cause if a cargo boat comes by and mows us down, we have to pay for the touchup to their propeller paint job.
funny munging
> The US is risking the lives of its service
> members instead of just mealey mouthing a
> quick "I'm sorry" it doesn't really mean. Why?
> Cultural norms.
Well, while that *is* part of it, there's other
problems too. The Chinese have *not* guaranteed
our people's return if we actually give an
apology. They've just said, "Apologize, and then
we can talk about it." I'm sure one of the more
frightening scenarios running through Bush's head
is this: We apologize. The Chinese then put our
people on trial--exhibit number one, our apology
and admission we were at fault.
Chris Mattern
> I don't think this was an accident at all.
No, I don't buy this; for the F-8 to have *wanted*
to ram his plane into the EP-3, he'd have to be
pretty much a kamikaze. The F-8 is a little bitty
plane and the EP-3 is a great big plane; in order
to do any real damage to the EP-3, he'd have to
destroy his own plane and probably lose his life
(which, in fact, he did). The EP-3 didn't
intentionally run into the F-8 because that's not
possible; the F-8 just gets out of the way. The
F-8 didn't intentionally run into the EP-3 because
nobody sane would try something like that.
Chris Mattern
> The US plane was intercepting electronic
> communications originating in China, i.e.
> spying.
Erhm, no. While it is commonplace to refer to
such surveillance as spying, it is not. It is
perfectly legal information gathering, completely
permissible by international law. A spy is
one who conceals his true loyalties in order to
infiltrate the target; he lies about whom he works
for. A good rule of thumb here is that someone
who wears his country's uniform *cannot* be a spy
as long as he wears that uniform, as he displays
his allegiance for all to see.
Chris Mattern
> The Chinese fighter was not a MiG, it was an
> F-8.
Technically correct, however the F-8 is largely
the same as the MiG-21. Close enough.
Chris Mattern
"What I don't understand is why so many people say that this is clearly the US's fault" What, you mean China and Vietnam right? Oh yea, that is about 1/6 the population of the world. :P
Absolutely not.
Is it OK for me to spy on my neighbor, just so I feel safer? Absolutely. :)
Never take moderation advice from sigs, including this one.
I didn't mention Kent State or Ruby Ridge or Waco or even Seattle because they are not relevant to the notion that the Chinese government is not paying attention to the average Chinese citizen's concerns. I was simply responding to a single point in the parent post, not making some blanket pro-US statement.
I do not have a signature
Well, I found it funny, but then again I enjoy the better /. trolls!
sulli
RTFJ.
Clearly Mr. Katz thinks the scenarios dealt with in Stephenson's works like Snow Crash and The Diamond Age re: tribal clades is where we are going. Perhaps in a world government structure where one can voluntarily choose his or her tribe without fatal repurcussions, but not now- the megatribes represented by entities such as the USA and PRC are far too powerful to allow true individual sovereignty. Check back in 200 years. Yes Katz, governments screw up and get themselves into situations like this where neither side can afford being perceived as backing down. But that does not mean that smaller netcentric cultural groupings will be any nimbler or smarter. Study human behavior in any large group, and you'll see the same sort of issues recur at every level. The P-3 incident may indeed turn out to be a classic example of large megatribal countries failing to optimize their behavior, but it does not follow that smaller tribes will do better.
________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
Anyone who still harbors Utopian fantasies about the Virtual State -- you know, the Net and Web, global community, the digital economy and interactivity all combining to shatter existing boundaries, etc. -- should find the current U.S.-China confrontation finishing them off.
Make up your mind, Mr. New Jerusalem!
They could intimidate Taiwan (our sworn ally)
Taiwan is not a "sworn ally" to the U.S. In fact, the United States does not have official diplomatic relations with Taiwan. We just like to sell them weapons.
All very well, but if the tables were turned, what would have happened?
Nothing. It would be public relations disaster for U.S. politicians to behave in this manner.
I have a hard time believing that the U.S. government could get away with holding 24 hostages...
Look, I'm sure we can say we're sorry it happened, but should we say we're sorry we did it? Did we do it? We don't have all the facts yet, the Chinese do. And they're sure as hell not gonna admit it was their fault. That'd be very unlike them.
. . .
. . .
Visions of an Asian Nelson Muntz... "Stop hitting yourself, SMACK! Stop hitting yourself, SMACK!"
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
The Communist part in China is about to pick its next group of leaders (internal, there are no elections for this.) This is being viewed as a shift from old to young, so tensions are high in the party right now as various individuals vie for succession.
In addtion, as noted above, the PLA has a say in the goverment, and is still respected by the people. They tend to be very conservative and seem to be the hardliners in this situation. The civilian rulers are in a hard place right now as they have to placate the PLA, prepare for a power shift, and deal with the Americans.
As noted before a direct apology from America would be viewed as weakness by the PLA. Yet the civillian leaders are trying to find a way out. Unfortunately the rhetoric has been turned up so high, its going to take time to work through any type of agreement.
http://www.economist.com for their article
The overly agressive fighter pilot passed below spy craft 3 times prior to crash, according to the detained crew.
US is spying -- everybody does -- from the international space. The Chinese are annoyed -- everybody would -- but there is nothing they can do, except to engage in provocations of this sort.
Well, this time the provocation went a bit too far. Like an annoyed driver trying to force a slow moving car in front of him to speed up, the Chinese fighter got too close and caused a rear-end collision.
If the spy plane did not land on the Chinese territory, there'd be no story. At all. Now the Chinese have some leverage and are trying to use it.
If Jon's point was, that US should apologize, just to end this quicker -- I disagree. This is not: "be wise, say you are sorry". There is no guilt to admit...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
You are correct that the Chinese haven't sent spyplanes over America (as far as the public knows). They prefer to send people to our nuclear weapons facilities in their global attempt to promote peace and honesty (and to promote their peaceful, utopian communistic ideals).
I'm not sure where you get the spy plane bit either. If the US military has been reduced to using flying elephants (big and slow) over international waters as the best means of spying our Chinese neighbors then we are in alot of trouble (or maybe it wasn't a SPY plane). I thought spying entailed using stealth of some sort and that clearly wasn't the intent. If CNN kept calling it a Reconnaissance Plane then the whole ordeal wouldn't be as much fun I guess.
They are a totalitarian state. That's the point I was trying to convey.
Perhaps the US is resisting apologizing until the exact circumstances can be determined.
The ability to project power globally The ability to affect economies globally The ability to interdict, interfere, and intervene in any situation globally China meets only the 2nd criteria. So the opening line should read: Today, the World's only SuperPower, the United States, is squaring off Regional Wannabe China...
I must say, I am highly impressed that Katz continues to write for slashdot, despite consistant bashing of every article he posts, without exception.
To this effect, one could hold him as an example of journalistic integrity, braving the rain and hail in order to inform us, the unwashed masses. Thank you Jon.
For any americans reading this, it is an exercise in irony. Click the link, read the def, and don't get too heated up.
jungle is massive
("Mine! Mine!")
The P-3 may be a patrol plane, but the EP-3E is a spy plane. It is an ELINT, SIGINT, COMINT (ELectronic/SIGnals/COMms INTelligence) plane, and the crew included intelligence officers to analyse the data that they received.
The Chinese rarely allow their pilots to train far out to sea, because of the fear of them defecting. This is one of the reasons that China probably could not win a conventional war with Taiwan, even without the US selling Taipei the Aegis battle-management systems.
I'd say it was an evens chance that the US delibarately bombed the embassy because they had intelligence that Serbia was in the process of selling bits of the Stealth shot down a few days earlier to the Chinese. "Oh no! Sorry! We had inaccurate maps."
Who holds American citizens abroad against their will and the will of the US Government? Only three classes I can think of:
The first two don't apply, but the last certainly does, and the gain is international prestige with mud on the US's face.
I thought we didn't negotiate with terrorists, no matter how big their organization?
I'd say its pretty naive to think the whole thing is about saying "sorry". It's probably also naive to consider it an accidents. Was it an accident that the US was spying on China? Maybe it also wasn't an accident that a Chinese plane got downed? It's certainly not an accident that 24 airman are being kept and possibley tortured for information.
But it's not gonna happen, so I think I'll just execute the 24 programs i have from Katz... oh, wait, that wouldn't have the desired effect.
sigh.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
I don't think you can really call this plane a spy plane. First, it is not unmarked and Second the Chinese know about and often escort this plane when it comes close to China. Third the Chinese know exactly what they are doing in the plane. I don't think you can call that any more then observing
Just think how much fun the crew of the plane had detroying everything onboard. They really use sledge hammers and upon landing if the have time they put a thermite grenade on the safe to destroy everything else.
Where am I going and why am I in this handbasket?
you have a good point
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
You also have a point....I would just hate to put myself in their shoes.
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
God loves war...ask anyone in the Middle East....
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
....We're (the US) _sorry_.....that your pilots can't fly!
ok...maybe not a great idea
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
I'm sure the poor servicemen & women being held hostage in that backward ass country could give a flying fuck about who's fault it was. And I'm sure their families could care less also. They just want to come home. A government for the people, by the people, who doesn't care about the people....
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
that's probably just what it is too, stories....
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
In spite of having been able to invade and conquer quite a number of surrounding countries in the past, the Chinese have never been as territorially expansionistic as some other countries. They usually resorted to controlling the surrounding states' governments (which is a bit like the US activity in Middle and South America or in countries like Kuwait where there is a strong US presence) and sometimes forcing them to pay tributes (which, again, is something practically everybody does). At the moment, China is in the borders of the Qing dynasty (which, again, consisted of Manchus, not Chinese, and ended in 1911), excluding Taiwan (where they claim terratory) and Mongolia (which they wouldn't probably want because there's nothing there). The other 13 territorial disputes are fairly minor, at least compared to other superpowers, and the scale of foreign intervention that the Chinese currently engage in is below the US amount by several orders of magnitude.
As far as the "barbarians" or "foreign devils" are concerned, that dates back to the period of Yuan rule where China (which has a 3000-year history of civilization) was ruled by horse-riding "barbarians" from the north. The term had a point since then. However, this attitude is so common everywhere in the world that I have serious trouble blaming the Chinese specifically for it. My own country's history is so filled up with it, and so is the US's, that we shouldn't really get down to such a primitive level of comparison.
Being neither US nor Chinese, I think most of you US citizens are being a bit hypocritical about the whole affair at the moment. It seems that China is slowly replacing Russia as "enemy #1" in most of your heads, which is a pity because you probably don't know that much about either country's history beyond the CIA World Factbook.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
China would do the same if it had the technical capabilities to do so. Some corrections are in order, I think.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
Someone once said "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen" or "Vive la France et mort aux autres" as well :-)
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
Are the US concerned about world safety? Or is it rather US safety, paired with corporate interests? I honestly don't know.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
This guy obviously lives in the US =) The *US* says that the plane was in international airspace and on autopilot and got hit by a fighter and all that fun stuff. The Chinese aren't saying "It's our fault! Now apologize!" They say the US is full of it. Who do you believe? It's hard to tell when it happened across the world with only 24 some odd witnesses.
Often repeated, and repeated once again:
Plane was in international airspace. Which do you believe - the lumbering prop plane attacked the fighter, which was supposed to be 60 - 100 kilometers away, or that the fighter buzzed the prop plane and lost?
An apology is an admission of guilt. Without knowing exactly what happened (other than the aftermath), how can one accept blame for what might have happened? Especially when circumstantial evididence points the the much more nimble fighter being at fault?
Enough of this crap already. Why is Katz allowed to post this drivel?
To put it in religious terms, we are sinful, and need to be changed at our deepest levels. (Check out the Christian Faith.)
The Enemy is us!
Did anyone seriously believe that a country that fully censors the Internet and the media was going to suddenly be open? Your ideas give the leaders of China nightmares.
For all our (the US) government fears free communication, imagine how China sees it.
Viv
-----------
Viv
Gmail invites for ip
John Katz is an aging piece of work lacking sophistication. If Dubya where to attempt a trade with the chinese, a Katz for the captuered concept, the US would have a valid reason to apoogise to the Chinese government, and the Chinese would have something to run their tanks over other than dissident students.
First of all, this is NO WAY a "spy plane." Spying is done covertly. This was an overt flight - we don't try to hide these flights. And who owns the rights to the electromagnetic spectrum in international waters? The Chinese?! Bah! We can monitor the spectrum in international space just as they can and every other nation in the world can, and DOES. Yes, this is a perfectly ordinary and tolerable activity for a plane.
Fully agree with the spying thing. Everyone does it. Lets face it, the chinese are stalling and stalling and stalling over this one, asking for what they know the American's cannot give. An apology. Why? Because they want to have a good long look at what is in that plane. They want to know what the american's know about them. Then they can change codes etc etc etc. The American's know that : 1) They can't issue an apology, they would loose lots of face back home, and in the international community. 2) They know that if they issue an apology, the next thing that the chinese will say is - "Well gee, we asked you before to stop flying near out airspace so either you say you will do that or you don't get the crew & the plane back." So why issue the apology? Theres no point because they cannot go to the level of saying they will not fly spy missions anymore. I think pretty much the chinese are the ones causing the issue here, they have 'little bully' syndrome. They are officially a superpower, but really when they are against the US as a superpower, they really arent that super. So now is their chance to say, "Fuck You" to the bigger bully, prove that they have just as big balls, and pull the bigger bully down a notch. The US is in the unfortunate position of being the bigger bully who is having to pretend that they are actually just trying to protect people, so they cannot behave as a bully should, ie resuce the crew and destroy the plane. Anyways, i've blahd on enough. Theres my 2 cents. And no, I'm not American. I'm british.
"what about the "Vienna Convention on Consular Relations" (to lazy to imbed link) http://fletcher.tufts.edu/multi/texts/BH444.txt which I do beleive gives US the right to visit detained miltary personel"
The US have been allowed to visit their detained personnel and also have been allowed to bring them supplies. The chinese are not preventing this from happening contrary to what you suggest in your post.
Slashdot: Proof that a million monkeys at a million typewriters can create a masterpiece
The same way ye let the russians store their nuclear missiles in cuba.
Slashdot: Proof that a million monkeys at a million typewriters can create a masterpiece
The Chinese people think that their gov't caved in way to easily over the embassy bombing, so their going to take out their frustration by holding on for a real apology.
That's one great reason why the USA should *never* apologize. Let the Chinese people get angry at their leaders!
Steve Magruder
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
who has ICBM's targeted at our cities
Uh, right, and America doesn't have ICBM's aimed at Chinese cities. But wait, thats different, right? Cause "WE'RE AMERICANS dammit". Riiight ..
------------------------------
Or before you are shot to death by the National Guard (accompanied by tanks) during a student anti-war protest on your own campus grounds?
My, how quickly we forget our own histories.
Zero Sum (don't amount to much). [root@localhost]
Now think, does China gives a hoot about the apologize?? Yeah! Of course they do! Just like they gave a hoot when they kill millions sitting a square. Just like they give hoot about childern in sweat shops. Or inslaving thier own people. Oh yeah, they want that apologize..... to make the US look like a bunch of weak fools.
I see it like this. I have a radio. Joe want my radio. One day, I hit him with my car one day, I didn't mean it. Sorry man, didn't mean it. Just the other day I was in his hood, walking the public street, listening to anything that came by with my radio. Then Joe notice me and hit me over the head, took my boots, and my radio. Now he calls me on the phone and tells me:
"If you want your boots back, say sorry for being on my street and forcing me to beat you over the head. Oh, I'm keeping your radio."
MarNuke
The journey is better then the end.
I'm American and I'll say this: The US should apologize... They have our people and our plane. You have to also understand their culture... Apology is not necessarily an admission of guilt, but rather politeness. They lost a fighter pilot who is probably dead. They want us to apologize that he is dead, not that we are at fault. There is a big difference in cultural perception here.
If Bush were not such an arrogant bastard trying to be the tough prez and gain approval, we would not be in this position.. What happened to the compassionate conservative line he's always throwing at us. The chinese want a cultural apology saying that we are sorry that the pilot is dead, it's that simple. Again, this is not an admission of guilt from their perspective, only from our arrogant western perspective. The fact that the plane was in international airspace is not the issue to them.
If Bush really wants to ruin our relationship with a multi-billion dollar trade partner because he is so obtuse and culturally shallow than so be it. I hope the rest of the world laughs at him and at us. It is time for America to get off it's high horse and realize we have become too arrogant just like the Roman Empire, The Greeks, The Ottomans, etc. All these empires fell and so will ours if America continues to be an arrogant nation. The only encouraging factor in all of this is that four years from now, Shrub will be probably be out of office.
For whatever reason, there's a HAM radio tradition in the hacker community. Half the fun of playing with a radio is to twiddle the dial and see what interesting things you can come across floating in the air. Come on, everyone who owns a police-band scanner please raise your hand.
This has been mentioned in a few posts above, but let's not forget that China does have missles pointed at us. Consider that with a sysadmin's view: there's an obviously hostile person/corporation out there who doesn't have the best reputation for being a nice guy. Tell me with a straight face that you wouldn't try your damndest to find out all you could about them.
Speaking as a US citizen, I think our president has done a pretty good job handling this so far. He realizes (unlike certain other parties harrum-Mr. Clinton-mmph) that words do mean something. I doubt that a person who waffles around on the definition of "is" would really understand the meaning behind "apology".
Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, will be quoted out of context on
Ok--now go read about the deaths of 80 innocent civilians in their own homes at the hands of US Defense and the FBI in 1993; read how the United States is the world leader in incarceration, with many of the jailed being casualties of the War on Drugs; read about the victims of racial profiling in the US ("Driving while black"); read about prison labour in the United States; or police brutality; perhaps even the many violations of international law by the United States.
Go read all of those links (and while you're at it, brush up on your history; for instance, slavery in the United States), and come back and tell me that you welcome the US as a power any more than China. Take off your rose-coloured US-media-manipulated glasses, and realize that America is as affected by propaganda convincing its citizens that their country faultless as China is.
China is not a superpower. I won't even back this up with evidence, since it should be obvious.
I just excluded Katz stories from my Slashdot prefences.
Perhaps an apology is an admission of guilt? Sentencing our troops to death probably wouldn't be a good idea.
Oh yeah, everyone got fooled except our lovely genius cyber-vandal !! ...
He knows better
Are you stupid?
Don't you realize that we are not dealing with democratically elected government but with bunch of tyrants who would do anything to keep their power (and they proved that.)
Don't you realize that this "nationalism" is what stands between your freedom and regime like China?
"It's a huge game of chicken to satisfy a few male egos"
This is sad. If it weren't for these "egos" what would stand between your freedom and bunch of Chinese dictating your every way of life.
You think it is impossible? Why?
You got used to be so safe in your little environment protected by the very people you criticize that you forgot why we have relative freedom in this country as compared to other places.
Yeah, Clinton as a "freedom fighter." ..
Give me a break
"Maybe we should both apologize and go home." ...
That was precisely the way British and French tried to solve problem of Hitler teritorial demands.
Just give him what he wants, maybe he will go away
Fuck, how is your "planetary security" gonna help if bunch of Chinese knock on your door and announce that you are part of their system now and NOTHING you ever held dear applies anymore?
You think that can't happen?
Why not?
It did happen many times in the past to people who least expected that ( do you think Jews in XX century Europe even suspected what lies in store for them ?)
You think your rhetoric about "being a humanist" and your love for our planet as a whole will protect you?
Does he not realize that we not talking here about two democratic nations having minor trade dispute ?
We talking here about nation where Katz would never be allowed to write anything unless it was in line with what official party line is.
Doesn't he realize that his right to write this stuff is protected by the very people like the crew of that plane ?
Ok, I will smack you in your undoubtedly ugly face and demand apologies! ...
When you refuse I will brag about your "sky-high ego" and your fear of "loosing your face" etc
Fair enough ?
There is no truth in Chinaland.
There is no free press there and no way to investigate anything independently.
No matter what was the real cause, red China should not be trusted simply because of their system.
"It's not as bad as you seem to think."
You mean, they temporarily suspended activities like using tanks to "disperse" protesting students?
Are we in wonderland now? How fucking bad does it have to get before you will call it for what it is: a brutal and completely merciless dictatorship?
"It's not like the US side hasn't messed up before anyway "
There is a difference here. After each of these there was a heated debate and many people proposing different scenarios of what happened: basically freedom of speech at work.
Do you really believe things like that are happening now in China.
It's AzN time!
oh woops, sorry about the typo!
scott
Right, my fault--thanks for the catch.
scott
>>So we have a slow lumbering jet on AUTO-PILOY
yeah - not to nitpick, but I think this enhances your point: the US Navy plane is propellor driven, not even a jet. This of course makes it even more slow and lumbering...
A pilot, in those days, was the only unfettered and entirely independent human being that lived in the earth.-Mark Twain
"We're sorry your plane ran into ours. Give us our aircrew or face the consequences."
- - - If the sun is a star, why can't I see it at night?
Or not. I don't think Bush would be that bright... or whatever you would call someone doing this on purpose... well... he might be that insane...
But I just live north of the border, what do I know.
--- I used to moderate, then I read the -1 articles and decided having to filter through them was not worth it.
Actually, that is not true. In the U.S., most prisoners have the right to work if they want, and they get paid, albeit sub-minimum wage. However, unlike China, U.S. prisoners are not forced to work - if they choose to work, it is for a maximum of 8 hrs - the standard workday of an average U.S. Citizen (i'm not considering the 16+ hr days of the average computer industry geek). Although the idea of chaingangs sounds barbaric, the prisoners are not forced to work over 8 hrs a day.
In general, modern problems have medieval solutions...
Lol....no territorial ambitions!?! Tell that to the people of Taiwan, Tibet, and Vietnam.
You were this close to the truth...
It was a Soviet interceptor, a MiG-25, piloted by a defector named Viktor Belenko. The Japanese government used perfectly legal excuses (customs regulations, airworthyness inspection) to keep the jet fighter for a few months so their techies (and the US/NATO's) could sniff over it. Even though the -25 was one of their most capable interceptors (it was designed to get within missile range of our SR-71 spy planes), the construction quality was pretty crude by Western standards.
The plane was shipped back to the USSR in crates. Belenko shows up at Nellis AFB for Red Flag exercises every so often as an OpFor "advisor".
Maj. Kong
--
Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff.
The EP-3 wasn't a "spy" plane, it was an ELINT asset, just a big antenna with wings, picking up whatever it could from international waters. Spy planes like the U-2 and SR-71 overfly foreign territory, just like our satellites do every ninety minutes.
The Russians still send a Tu-95 Bear down the East Coast every week, and the Chinese would do the same if they could project power that far.
In 1941, both the US and the USSR were sneak-attacked (Barbarossa in June '41, Pearl Harbor that December). Since the end of that war, we've spent billions of dollars to insure that we don't get surprised again (since this time it would go nuclear). ELINT and SIGINT is supposed to keep us informed of opposition readiness and intentions.
Funny how ENIGMA and Turing's BOMBES are revered by geeks, yet the assets used to collect the data are reviled.
Now, would anyone care to count the antennas on top of the local Chinese or Russian embassy?
Maj. Kong
--
Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff.
Somehow your post reminds me of one of the songs from Roger Water's album Amused to Death.
Radio announcer: Do you really think Iranian terrorists would have taken American hostage if Ronald Reagan were president?
Do you really think the Russians would have invaded Afghanistan if Ronald Reagan were president?
Do you really think third-rate military dictators would laugh at America and burn our flag in contempt if Ronald Reagan were president?
Concerned Citizen: Well it might work!
Change the names, and you pretty much have your post.
-- [ta]
Outward looking? Less insular? The Chinese have been one of the most insular cultures in all of history. True, hundreds of years ago, the Chinese did have one of the largest navies in the world and did establish trade. However, they decided that there was nothing to be learned from the outside world and they became introverted. Even if you look at the etymology of the word "China" in chinese, it means middle kingdom. For thousands of years, they thought themselves to be at the center of the world. This is not unlike other cultures, but the difference is that they were not forced to open themselves up until the 1800s. The chinese were literally shitted on by the rest of the world at that point because they had grown weak. Remember the opium wars? The spheres of influence and finally world war II and the rape of nanking? If they remember their history, they might just start looking for some blood. It's their turn to do the whipping now. Probably the thing we should watch out for the most are a few notable points about chinese culture itself. The Chinese have an insufferable sense of pride. I think you will find a higher proportion of Chinese men who would rather die than beg, than you would in western countries. In that sense, it was almost predictable that they would react this way. When something happens, they do not typically apologize, partly because doing so would mean a loss of face--a big taboo in Chinese culture. They tend to find "justification" as you westerners would call it. in the future of politics, other nations better watch out before they slight china, because they are probably much more likely to be provocative and volatile should another accident of any given type were to occur. What makes the situation a more troubling impasse than others is the fact that both nations are at fault, in some degree or another. They probably find the fact that the U.S. is flying spy planes near their airspace to be rather offensive. How do you think the U.S. would respond if China were to fly spy planes near our airspace? Hell, the U.S. went berserk when the Russians put missiles on Cuba, despite the fact that we had hundreds of missiles aimed at them right out of Europe. All politics aside, don't you think that's a bit arrogant. Sure the missiles were ok, but spy planes? If the U.S. wants to justify itself for these actions, they'll have to acknowledge that they are intervening at the behest of the taiwanese. That would start a war. However, until then, China does have a bit of a moral upper hand. To finish up, I'd just like to remind all of you of that ages-old adage, "power corrupts." When China was dominant many centuries ago, they develop a nice racist attitude. When Britain was in power, they romped all over the world and extorted taxes from everyone between africa and indonesia. When the U.S. came to power, we had panama, guatemala, grenada, and loads of other fun. There's a hell of a lot more that the textbooks don't tell you, but the U.S. has done a bit more of it's share of big-brother than a lot of you think. Now it looks like China may be coming back to power, and if that happens, everyone else better watch their ass, especially the U.S. When it happens, I'd like to add that this is the first time in history that a nation has fallen from the pedestal of power, and risen to reclaim it's former glory. (we've had the british empire, the roman empire, etc. but they never did regain their former glory after their empires collapsed. mussolini was almost on his way to forming another italian empire, but we all know what happened then)
I'm bored, lets go break something.
Some sanity. It is SOOOO nice to find someone who understands the REAL situation. I am exmilitary. This kind of stuff has been going on for DECADES!! But now the media gets ahold of it and blows it out of proportion. WHY? They don't really get the point. They just want a story to sell.
I understand being the bigger person and sucking it up but we CANNOT do this with China.
WHY?
simple... you give them an inch and they will go for the mile. Also, you are right they have made NO promises.
Thank you for posting. It is nice to see some rational thinking instead of bleeding politically correct hearts.
I say shoot straight. Say what you mean. You can do it tactfully but stop the bullship and say what you mean.
It is NOT our fault that they F&*%ing flew-by INTO our plane. It is NOT for the US to apologize for anything more than the unfortunate SUICIDE death of the Chinese Fighter Pilot.
We have been spying on them for YEARS!!! This is NORMAL and ROUTINE. They inturn have been spying on us for decades too. This is NORMAL.
ONCE again the media are dragged in and start commenting on s*&t they, in most cases, really don't understand. THEY are brought/bought into this to go for the sympathy of the common person. The one that really has no clue. Which of course is a lot of the country.
OF COURSE, we are not going to apologize for them running into OUR plane. It would be like somebody running into you on the street causing themselves pain and hurting us then DEMANDING we apologize because they ran into US!!!!
I am really upset about this because I say excuse me and use manners where ever I go and MOST people in this country don't anymore. AND in some cases. I have had the above, human, situation happen. I tell them to F*&% OFF! YOU RAN INTO ME!!!!!!
SCREW them. THEY are at fault.
I am NOT happy with the fact that it seems that BUSH is pissing off tons of communist countries to get us back into another "Cold War"-like economy but in this instance we are actually NOT at fault.
No one was happy about it and we used to give them the finger but there was no question they were within their rights to be there.
Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.
Whoops, I just spilled a heaping bowl of sarcasm all over myself.
--
Daniel J. Kelly
It was a troll because it was in no way humurous, so therefore it was just a pathetic attack on Bush's occasional phonetic anomalies. This angle started getting old several months ago. It's really sad though. I wish people would at least start putting some actual thought and creativity into making fun of the President.
--
Daniel J. Kelly
"A Chinese fighter passed as close as 3 feet to a slow-moving U.S. spy plane before the two craft collided"
This article is a rambling diversion from the facts. China doest want a simple "I'm sorry", they want a "doquian" on behalf of our entire nation, which in China is a form of apology with admitted fault. This would weaken the US diplomatically and probably discredit the new administration.
The situation as I see it is we got caught spying. Everybody does it, everybody HAS to do it. We got caught in the act, and China is taking advantage of that, but too an unwarranted extent.
Compare this to our recent uncovering of Haansen. We didn't detain Russians over this or anything so extreme. We did the opposite and answered by deporting several Russians.
The issue of blame confuses me. I believe China was at fault, but I don't see why it matters. Our plane had a choice between life and death. They chose to live, and China is punishing them for that? Should the crew have decided "well we dont have permission, lets crash into the ocean instead"?
Theyre just buying time while they strip our plane.
not because they're a perfect utopian society,
Not a perfect society, that's an understatement! According to Black Book of Communism the Chicoms have racked up a death toll of 65 million people in the short time they've been in power.
but because I honestly think they're doing the best that they can do
They certainly did the best they could to top Hitler's accomplishments, and they succeeded too. You have to hand it to them, when they set out to accomplish something, they do it in a big way.
Yes, human rights are a problem, but China is improving. I've lived in Beijing, and never heard one person complaining about human rights. They complain about corruption, wealth disparity, pollution, taxes, getting into a good school, stuff that people all over the world worry about. And most important, they think the Communist Party is doing a pretty good job, all things considered
Did it ever occur to you that a lot of people don't complain simply because they're afraid too? The Chinese gov is not afraid to imprison/execute dissidents and anyone else who complains too loudly. That has a tendency to stifle any criticism don't you think? Or perhaps you're too young to remember Tiananmen Square?
The democratic US has committed some pretty heinous atrocities in its time. No Gun Ri? My Lai?
You picked some pretty poor examples there. While both were tragedies, neither of those incidents were a result of an official US Government policy. Those soldiers were not acting under orders any higher than their immediate commanders and at No Gun Ri an investigation was unable to determine whether or not the troops were acting under any orders at all. Furthermore, the commander at My Lai was convicted of murder and spent time in prison. At Tiananmen, the soldiers were acting under orders of the government.
As for the massacre of Indians, yes that was a deplorable chapter in American history, and there is no justification for it. But I never claimed democracy was perfect, just a hell of a lot better than the alternatives. Arming Iraq? The sale of arms between countries goes on all the time. France also sold a lot of equipment to Iraq and they also received a lot from Russia as well. China is currently selling missile technology to Iran as well. I don't see how any of this could be called an atrocity.
No, the Chinese are not afraid of protesting--farmers, miners, laid off workers have been doing so for some time.
So now you're saying that the Chinese people aren't happy with their government? I'll repeat my earlier question. If the Chinese people are so happy with their government and the Communist Party in general, why does the government have to work so hard at suppressing dissenting opinions and blocking their citizens from international news sources?
Yes, what the Chinese gov't did at Tiananmen was brutal. I'm not debating that. Given the situation, given the loss of life that would have resulted from political chaos, I found it a nessesary evil.
I'm sure that Hitler considered it a necessary evil to divert all those resources from the war effort to building concentration camps to get rid of all those Jews too. Communists/Fascists/Socialists are all the same, more than happy to argue that the ends justify the means. No matter how gruesome the means may be. Trying to claim that slaughtering 3000 of your own citizens is necessary to prevent "potential" political unrest and the possibility of further loss of life is dishonest at best and disgusting under any circumstances.
The biggest killer in Chinese history is instability. Mao brought instability in a big way, and millions died.
Mao also helped bring Communism, which historically is a much bigger killer. Hitler was second-rate compared to the types of vicious thugs and butchers that are attracted to the Communist philosophy.
For the same reason, I think Tiananmen was an unfortunate neccessity
A peaceful student protest broken up by armored assault, resulting in an estimated 3000 deaths was an unfortunate necessity? I don't care what they were saying, that level of response by the Chicoms was unjustified. And the type of individual that can swallow a justification like that is very sick indeed.
As for the Chinese not willing to critisize their gov't, go ride in a taxi--you'll hear more four-letter words about the gov't than you'd ever want to hear. They're not afraid to speak up against their gov't, but they honestly don't give a damn about human rights the way we westerners expect them to
There's a big difference between uttering a few curse words towards the government and an active campaigning for political change. And if the Chinese are so happy, why does the Communist Party have to resort to such draconian measures in order to remain in power? If the Chinese people were truly happy and approved of the work the Part was doing, then there wouldn't be any problem with opposition parties and free elections. But Communism doesn't work that way, does it? It's either their way or the strong possibility of ether a lengthy prison term or a bullet in the head.
For some interesting information, try this commentary from a catholic website. (don't worry, its strictly a political commentary)
"...At the end of the day"..."when everyone goes home, you're stuck with yourself." RIP Layne Staley
[quote] because one culture can't apologize for an obvious accident and the other culture insists that only an apology can end the crisis [/quote] Why the hell should we issue an apology when we didn't do anything wrong? The facts, as we know them, clearly point to the chinese pilot being at fault. It is a dangerous precedent to set if we make an apology for someone else's actions. Other countries will start the same crap as China. Pull your head out of your ass, be proud to be an American, and don't let some 3rd rate country bully us into apologizing for their blatant error!
'mmmmmmmmm.... forbidden donut'
I don't know about spy planes, but I seem to recall a couple of MIG pilots defecting with their jets... Try this link
I like you, Stuart. You're not like everyone else, here, at Slashdot.
Libya tried the same thing over a decade ago.
They got bombed for their trouble.
International treaties only recognize out to 12 miles. Hell, if they Chinese had the technology to do a 13 mile fly-by of the West Coast, we'd have to let them.
I like you, Stuart. You're not like everyone else, here, at Slashdot.
What would the USA do if the chinese kept flying planes up the cost of California, just outside the territorial boundaries? What would they do if one of these planes came down at an American air-base?
There would be an over 50% chance that the pilot would defect, and since we already know what Chinese jet technology is, they would probably get it back pretty quick.
I like you, Stuart. You're not like everyone else, here, at Slashdot.
Why am I thinking that we need a new mod type: Paranoid Fantasy...
I like you, Stuart. You're not like everyone else, here, at Slashdot.
They are all coming home anyways. It is only a question of when.
My guess he is going to be very pissed off no matter what: The carelessness of Chinese pilot busted his spy-chariot and in doing so has cast suspicion on the US pilot's qualifications to fly a $500,000,000 spy plane. The US pilot is probably already fuming thinking about the mess the Chinese Military has personally caused him.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ the real world is much simpler ~~
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
The american pilot was not skilled enough to keep control of his aircraft
Very creative thinking but the US pilot might not find that very acceptable or accurate.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ the real world is much simpler ~~
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
Some folks still don't seem to know...
1. The US plane was on autopilot.
2. The Chinese plane flew into the US plane. (Not the other way around.)
3. The other Chinese pilot reacted by asking for permission to shoot down the US craft.
4. He was not given authorization, but was ordered to force it to land at the now famous Chinese island.
5. Two more fighter craft joined the first to ensure the US plane could not get away.
What everybody already knows...
1. The Chinese are holding the 24 Americans as prisoners/hostages.
2. The Chinese got what they wanted: the US technology.
What I think...
1. China is angry for the US bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade last year. (And they should be angry -- even the US sincerely and exuberantly apologized because it was wrong.)
2. China owes the US an apology because there is no excuse for what they have done here.
3. We are witnessing the actions of a two-armed government that is not accountable to its own people and now feels strong enough not to worry about perceptions outside its borders either.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ the real world is much simpler ~~
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
Heh... Maybe we could get the Navy to try their new trick... "accidentally" surface a US attack sub to beneath one of the Chinese trawlers off our coast.
I take drugs seriously.
While it is true that the planes were in international airspace at the time of the collision, what has been consistantly overlooked by U.S. media is that this accident occured in China's exclusive economic zone. Basicly, thile everyone has the right of free passage through this zone, China has exclusive control over any economic activity. Who here is willing to argue that the collection of electronic information is not economic in nature to some extent? That at the point at which the U.S. starts engageing in more then just free passage through this zone there is a real question of Chinese sovereingty involved. Consider this behavior in the context of the Chinese persepctive regarding Taiwan (which they claim as a renegade province) the spratly islands and our intereference in internal chinese affairs. In a smiliair situation, we (the U.S.) probably would have shot the plane down.
Get over your naive confucian understanding of chinese culture, DrgnDancer...the conflict is GOOD fo the chinese government, they know that. The Posturing is good for them, the anti-american sentiment it riles up (especially in the wake of the embassy bombing) is good for them, the status it affords them (of being important enough to have skirmishes with the US governemt) is good for them.
There are two glaring problems with your rebutal:
(1) the long historical relationship of china and republicans since Nixon. China has more often than not favored republicans over democrats (when we get to the next point this will become clear), not vice-versa. What China didn't want was environmental and human rights provisions rolled into a trade treaty, both of which Bush will most assuradely not push for, while Gore might have.
(2) HOSTAGE CRISES ARE GOOD FOR PRESIDENTS. Especially those, like dubya, who have no track record regarding foreign affairs. As soon as Bush got into office, two of the U.S.'s more complicated foriegn interests provided him with brilliant oportunities for him to posture and pose as 'presidential'...
oops...did i betray my bias somewhere in there?
Vasilis
still looking for a signature...
Vasilis Vasaitis
Late readers: please moderate at Newest First, with a low threshold, to promote late writers.
Let's see. Russian spy ships and ballistic missile submarines were known to operate close to American territory. We never took any of them hostage.
You have know idea what you're saying. I spent 8 years in the Army and have seen first hand the power of modern weaponry.
Why not? They paid for Iraq to re-arm for the Kuwaiti invasion after all.
Everybody seems to buy this "accident" BS. NPR reported that a Taiwanese news source says the American plane was forced down by the remaining Chinese fighter. The point is that we mass news consumers don't know what really happened. Why doens't GWB & Co. just spin it that the Chinese forced the American plane down to create an incident. Make it "inconvenient" for President Jiang to return home from Argentina - maybe his plane might have some trouble and be forced to land in Hawaii, giving the Americans some equal leverage in the "detainee" department. Make it interesting, people!
We're spending billions of dollars (a big chunk of our GDP) on national defense.
Ahem. According to this morning's NY Times, Bush proposed a defense budget for next year of $310.5B. His budget projects GDP for next year of $10.9T. That means defense will be less than 3% of GDP -- which the Wall Street Journal claims is the lowest level since Pearl Harbor.
In absolute terms, you're right. It's a huge amount. But not relative to GDP.
china wants us to admit that we purposely rammed into their fighter plane, killing the pilot. seeing as this is almost an impossible story, there's no reason why the us should concede.
china is testing our new president, to see if he has any balls or not, and its pretty obvious from the way he's handling the situation that he doesnt.
bush should demand the hostages back, or else the most favored nation status will go away effective tomorrow. if that doesnt do it (which it will), then its time to mention the possibility of the US giving aid to taiwan. once we get the hostages back, we destroy the plane.
china wants to wear the daddy pants, and bush is letting them. if we're not careful, the verocity of chinese nationalism has the capability to destroy this country, and we should not let it foster by letting them play with american hostages.
disproportionate incarceration of blacks and Hispanics in U.S.
Um...let me get this straight...so if a black person is arrested and charged with a crime, the police should just let him go, because there are already enough blacks in jail?
OK, I'll go along with that, as long as they get to move in right next to your house!
What ever happened to the notion, that if you commit a crime, you go to jail, it doesn't matter what race you, a crime is a crime...
Let's see...
your politicians vote in your favour rather than some corporations who fatten their campaign funds...
Last election, it was your goddamn country that was filling up the campaign pockets of the Democrats in this country...
some chinese wisdom: settle your own problems before meddling into other people problem Some more chinese wisdom, if I may:
- Lets put people into hard labor camps (Did I say hard labor camps? I meant re-education camps...err..I meant happy camps...)
- Lets force people to have abortions when they already have one child
- Lets suppress free speach at any cost, to suppress the truth.
- Lets kill innocent people all throughout our "glorious" 50 year history...
media from inaccurate propoganda
Um...chinese media isn't 1% truth, 99% FUD?
Here is some American wisdom for you. Give us our fucking people back, our plane back, or we will boycott your goods, and make Taiwan a nuclear power!
And this is why you'll never be president. Now, I'm all for not apologizing. I don't believe its our fault at all. However, escalation is a useless thing at this point. We put another couple of carrier groups into the mix. They move some of their ships closer. Someone else gets bumped and another round of bumper vehicles starts. Someone else decides to drop a conventional warehead on some civies. Then one side drops a nuke on a second tier target as a warning shot. And then I am dead because there was a moron in the hotseat who likes the idea of Nukleer Ritalyashion. Now, as much as I like to criticize dubya, I think he has a cool enough head to wade through this shitstorm and still set up U.S. da bomb. Metaphorically speaking, of course.
There are two other witnesses that you're ruling out that I have yet to hear _ANY_ information about. I'm thinking that this is mostly because China isn't letting anyone examine the black boxen on the planes. If this incident can be cleared up and people really want to lay blame, then the plane's flight recorders, my other witnesses, should be able to clear up the incident without fail. Of course, this would require China to be cooperative, which I don't see happening. Also, the flight recorders might not produce all of the detail necesary, but, I'm sure some of that data would at least shed some light on the matter.
I really hope you're joking. Do you honestly believe that a war would be beneficial for this country? Economically, wars only benefit when countries are not at maximum production levels. Industry would have to be diverted from other things to produce weapons. This is radically different from post-Depression era, in which production levels were low, and were boosted by wartime necessities.
Furthermore, being a superpower is about more than just vanquishing the weaker countries. In case you haven't forgotten, that was one of the main tenets of the Chinese and communist propaganda. Superpowers have a responsibility to "play nicely with the other children"
Have you ever been in the military? Because productivity in the military is more than just killing people, in fact, that is the least important part of the job. "Protect and defend", not annihalate.
Yeah, I heard this story on CNN today...
I think China better get used to more Recon aircraft flying along their coast. If anything this shows that we need to keep an eye on their Chicom asses.
Real smooth move on their part, they just gave the green light to Taiwan to buy whatever they want from us. Wonder if we can slip them a nuke or 2 to provide some protection... we did it for Israel.
Have ya looked at a map at all? Taiwan is far to the northeast of this. It has nothing to do with this. Might want to take your "silly little mind" and read up on this (here, even though it is liberal biased, check out MSNBC for some information.... check out the map at the bottom.(there are better ones out there... one of which shows the humorous claim of china to the Spratly island chain)
We said we were sorry(Powell). We are just not going to apologize and take the blame for this aggression by the PRC.
Actually they were Spanish shipping vessels. They were fishing outside the 12 nm area. Technicaly they were out of Canadian waters. But their navy was bigger and more able than the Spanish Navy (who only sent a couple of coastal patrol vessels.... to the Northen Atlantic Ocean, in bad weather!)
Anyway, the outcome is that Canada succeed because they were able to impunely harass sovereign vessels in international waters. That is, Canadian Navy ships were bigger than the Spanish counterparts, outnumbered them and got that close to the shipping vesels that, inorder to not have costly accidents, were recalled by the fishing company.
It looks like, whatever SouthPark says, US is a powerful friend of Canada. They didn support Spanish claims on the matter.
Lesson learnt appyable to the EP-3 case: the 12 nm rule depends on who has the stronger fleet around.
BTW, kuy tebe hispania.
Regards
OpKool
If I could only be as cool as Jon Katz! Then I could post irrational flames/trolls DIRECTLY to the front of /. instead of embeded deeply in the top modded post.
disc-chord
"...because one culture can't apologize for an obvious accident and the other culture insists that only an apology can end the crisis."
Look, first, for the record let me state that I have no problem with Jon Katz' articles.
That having been said, this was not an obvious accident. Yes, I realize that my country can be just as propagandist as the next one regardless of our warm fuzzies about being above all that, but we have two pieces of evidence before us which are irrefutable; an EP-3E and a F-8 were involved. Maybe I'm just harping on the somewhat loaded phrase of "accident", but if we discard all the other rhetoric, we're left with these two facts. The fault is theirs, regardless of how the diplomats want to massage it.
Worse, they want an investigation ...but an apology *first*. What?? I realize this will be tagged (and possibly modded down) as a jingoistic rant, but in this country, a person is (theoretically, see Mitnik) considered innocent until proven guilty. An apology does not come before the investigation.
My .02,
My .02,
zencode
iactivist.org/jason
But I still wanted to know who thought this was humor... =)
My .02,
My .02,
zencode
iactivist.org/jason
My .02,
My .02,
zencode
iactivist.org/jason
He kept challenging me and I kept refusing to hurt him and I kept losing face and he kept gaining it. sheesh...
One day he publicly challenged me in front of a group of my firends and I refused. He called me a coward and turned to walk away. I picked him up by his belt, grabbed an ankle and held him upside down until his wallet fell out and he said "uncle." Then I gently lowered him to the ground. As I put him down I said "I'm sorry if I hurt you." He went his way and I went mine. No one said anything about it ever again.
The Chinese demand that the US apologize is exactly the same as that little kid demanding that I fight him. The US needs to very diplomatically hold China up by its belt, shake them a little, and then very gently let them go.
Or else we could just nuke the airbase. But that would get us into a LOT of trouble.
StoneWolf
You're Chinese, aren't you?
"I might have made a tactical error in not going to a physician for 20 years." -- Warren Zevon
"The United States seems not to comprehend a tradition that places an enormous premium on honor, face, and responsibility."
And where is the honor in presenting a false apology? We could say "gee, it's all our fault, can we puhleese have our people and our plane back?" and we *might* get the people. IF it happened in international (by most country's definition...just saying you own fifty miles out from shore doesn't make it so) waters, it appears that this pilot had a previous record of hotdogging these very same planes. Ergo, it stands to reason that while it might have been an accident, it was probably caused by the Chinese pilot's actions. That makes him reckless and responsible.
You don't apologize when some punk teenager runs into your car, and the US should feel no need to apologize to a country who is, ultimately, responsible for the actions of its soldiers.
"I might have made a tactical error in not going to a physician for 20 years." -- Warren Zevon
And this is the greatest example of that
Various grim-faced U.S. officials, from the President and Vice-President to the Secretary of State, have been rushing around in their big black limos, and issued guarded expressions of concern and sadness, but nobody can quite bring himself to say the magic words.
It's ego ego everywhere. Saying sorry could mean much more to America than just looking bad , it could affect their business, their so called proven superiority which may stand challenged and their image as through professional who never make mistakes.
We didn't do anything wrong -- you just got in the way.
I can almost hear that. The Americans should loosen themselves up a bit and stop trying to prove their superiority all the time and concentrate on actually progressing on that path rather than just sit and gaurd their superiority in things that may not matter after a while.
But then even though we all know that history repeats itself and everything that goes up must come down, we are condemed to repeat history.
In the end, I would also like to point out that there is going to be no one world till we are threatened by aliens from other planets and that may take a while.
There's always sufficient, but not always at the right place nor for the right folks.
This is what happens when after an accident you don't fill your accident report to be sent to the insurance companies...
É que os desafinados também têm um coração
Not to detract from the horrors that the Chinese government seems to have committed, but before losing ourselves completely to Patriotic thumpings it might behoove us to remember the original natives of America and how "a group [siezed] control of a geographic area, intimidating not only the inhabitants but also nearby neigbors..." blah blah blah.
Still, I do hope that the men are returned safely.
Quote from ???: "There are lies; there are damn lies; and there are benchmarks."
If they stayed out of US airspace - nothing. This occurred with Russia during the Cold War and still occurs when the Russians can get their planes up in the air.
Read this story on CNN that helps to clarify which party is at fault. Although this is the Pentagon's analysis, it seems much more credible than China's "US plane made a sudden course change" story.
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
On the road, if you rear-end someone, you are at fault!
...Umm, yeah, judge... I was speeding and following too closely, but, umm..., he made a sudden motion, and... See, what had happened was...
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
We're working on a draft for GW and here's how we think it should read....
APOLOGY TO THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
It is with deep regret, hesitation, and contrition that I, The President of the United States of America, offer apology to the Chinese nation and its peoples. I apologize for the heinous act performed by our large, sluggish, propeller driven, airplane when it got in the way of your highly maneuverable, supersonic, technologically superior, jet aircraft. Furthermore, I sincerely regret the fact that by flying in international airspace, we afforded your "highly competent" pilot the opportunity to fly his aircraft into our own, causing him to spiral to his death into the ocean. We regret the choice made by said pilot when he used deficient judgment in electing to attempt aerial intimidation upon our slower moving, unarmed, surveillance vehicle. This situation brings to mind a similar episode when I was in grade school and my face got in the way of the school yard bully's fist. He broke a bone in his hand, and I felt as compelled to apologize for that incident as I do for this one.
Let me summarize by stating that it is our sincere hope that you accept this "heart felt" and "sincere" apology for the actions committed by your pilot. We are sorry that we got in the way. We are sorry that we were forced to leave international airspace and land in Chinese territory. We are sorry that you were forced to provide food and housing for our military personnel. Most of all, we are sorry that you have, in your possession, some of our most technologically advanced surveillance equipment on the planet. I hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive us. I hope that soon you will be compelled to release our men and our property.
Because I really don't want to have to apologize again when we have to go over there and kick your f****** ass.
Sincerely,
George W. Bush
President of the United States
I think you are mistaken. This did take place over international waters.
To correct your analogy to reflect what happened... A peeping tom named Uncle Sam was sitting in a tree in a park looking down on a girl named China. China's little brother saw him and climbed the tree and broke his nose. The Sam lost his balance as a result of the crippling injury and had to jump out of the tree. The safest place to land was on China's picnic blanket so he did and apologized.
Now, what is the problem? Sam, according to our fantasy laws (for the sake of the analogy) had the right to be in the tree. He also had the right to be looking wherever he wanted to. If China didn't want to be seen, she should move her "viewable" items to another place or hide them. The problem occurred when Sam was forced onto China's blanket where he did not belong...
(incidentally, Sam thumped the little brother twice, rendering him deceased or at least MIA, before falling from the tree)
Now, does China deserve an apology? Yes she does. Sam landed on her territory without permission or even any kind of warning. Does she deserve an apology for the peeping? (according to our fantsy law) No.
Peace is no longer an option, it's a necessity
The duality weakens
This is probably the funniest thing I've read in a long time!
Here's the sad part, though: Moderation Totals:Troll=3, Insightful=3, Interesting=2, Funny=2, Overrated=1, Total=11
We need an age limit for moderation. Apparently, all but two out of 11 moderators are teenage nosepickers. Five of them are teenagers with severe angst (3 insightful? 2 interesting?) Three can't distinguish from a troll and real sarcastic commentary. The overrated moderation may be in order, if the moderator thought the comments were way inappropriate.
The poster of the parent comment should get a job with the Onion.
I got my Linux laptop at System76.
...because like Clinton, there is a large portion of the population who hates him irrationally and will never give him credit for anything.
Actually, I didn't like Clinton because I couldn't trust him to tell the truth. The man had multiple and conflicting definitions for the word "is" for crying out loud. I think that's rational.
However, what you say about large populations hating the presidents, in this case, is very true. The election was way too close for Bush to come out a clear winner on things like this.
I got my Linux laptop at System76.
China usually loses the top 1/3 of its scientists to the US, the second 1/3 go to Japan, and they are left with the bottom tier.
While it is my opinion the Ngyen Ho-Lee (sp?) may have done some questionable things, but he was setup up by the Chinese government to appear as though he did far worse things.
By doing this, China can use this as propaganda fuel to retain the more talented people by creating the illusion of a very Chinese unfriendly America. Having said this, I believe that this is the exact same shit that is going on with airplane collision.
Either give it away or get top dollar, but never sell yourself cheap.
Common sense tells us a bipolar world is always better than a unipolar world, especially the superpower is filled with people of self importance. The fact is, US has to tolerate with all this because it WANTS to penetrate China's economy and naturally to control it. Heck, who wouldn't want to trafe in a country with 1.2 billion potential consunmers. Look at Kashmir. Why US did not interfere much? Because there is no oil, nothing much of value over there. Why waste time and manpower over nothing to be gained? US cares only about itself. Its people. Its economy. The gap between the poor and rich, specifically West and East is bigger. Let us think this way, do you think Africa will get into the present dire situation without the Westerners inflitrating their soil? Who needs television and the like when they can avoid wars, apartheid and AIDS. There is no right for US to monitor what the others are doing, like they actually own the whole world. The plane should not be there in the first place. In short, I am of the opinion that US should learn about respect. Do not cross the line once too often. You will irk others. Respect is important when you want to do business in Asia.
The day Microsoft produce a product that does not suck is when they sell vacumn cleaners.
One reason not to apologise that I have not seen listed: I'm sorry from the U.S. would lead to a trial of our service men/women that are currently being held hostage there. If we apologise, our people over there are doomed.
Above comment is personal opinion. Poster is not a spokesperson.
e-comm surveillance (trying to listen to important conversations, etc. is very close to spying, just not cloak and dagger or photo surveillience
You spyed on them, you landed on their island. Their pilot is dead.
No doubt they would have sent the crew back if the pilot wasn't dead. But he is, wow all their asking for is an apology.
Is an apology so much to ask for? Is the US really so small that you can't say sorry?
I think there is a reason you posted as an anonymous coward. I can't believe you think they are justified in holding the crew. That seems to make you an enemy. Identify yourself, enemy!
it talks about the "cowboy" attitude of the Chinese pilot that brought down the US plane. here
hehe, yes wipe out the Chinese military, but not the civilians, I hope. It's Palpatine, FYI.
Another dreamer, living in a world of emotion because the world of facts isn't as fun. When push comes to shove they would rather clam up than discuss issues of fact.
The problem here isn't the United States. Its China. China doesn't care about anything but China. They have learned that because they have the bomb they can be as asine as they want because for them their people are disposable.
They want an apology so they can claim to be the stronger of the two nations. They want an apology so they can damage the office of President of the United States enough so they can get away with even more abuses.
Whats appalling is the lack of comment against China in the European press. That big bunch of pussies is doing what they always do, and that is sticking up for what is right in hopes of being ignored so they can't get in trouble. They are so afraid of jeporadizing their trade agreements with China that they lost the will to be world powers. Fact is, there are only 3 real world powers, the US, Russia, and China. The whole of European Union can never equal either three because they don't have the guts to stand up for themselves or anyone else. They live in their little dreamland, hoping the real world won't intervene. They can't even police their own backyard (balkans) without crying to the US, then attacking the US verbally when we want a say in how its settled. Apparently all the EU has accomplished is to turn the whole place into a land reminiscent of France. What Napolean could not do they did.
Back on China. I am willing to bet we know exactly what happened, down to the second out there and are just withholding it until its settled. Everyday the Bush administration is leaking more and more of its "Ace in Hole". Don't think twice that we don't know exactly what happened. Spy planes don't just fly out there, they transmit their data real-time, just because if there is an accident that data is that more valuable.
China is being a childish little shit of a country, and unfortunately everyone has to put up with their hissy fit because they have proven many times that they just don't care about anyone else except themselves, and themselves being those in power.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Sigh. I don't know what's worse:
Idiot flamewars on Slashdot. Film at 11.
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Why have the Chinese authorities demanded an apology before releasing the US aircrew?
Experience & Common Sense tells me that a fighter pilot is more likely than a multi-engine pilot to be hot-dogging. So I think the US aircrew can show that they where not at fault (possibly with a Flight Data Recorder, but probably by just their accounts).
The Chinese are demanding the apology because they know that is what the rest of the world will remember not the results of the subsequent investigation.
Yes the US aircrew where spying on the Chinese, but every military power in the world does it. Indeed the US even does it to it's friends (c.f. Echelon).
I'd lay money on the fact that Dubya, will now definitely sell the Taiwanese all the weapons they want and probably at a discount now.
We are sorry for not knowing...
Your Pilots cannot fix their position less than 200 miles.
Your Pilots have poor vision and cannot see a plane the size of an E2.
Your Pilots are untrained in evasive action.
Your Fighter planes are less manoeuvrable than an E2.
Your Fighter planes Ejector seats don't work.
Your Air See rescues units are ineffective
It seems to be a common flaw of the intelligent to believe that life and politics can be so simply divided into neat little boxes, each fitting nicely within each other and lining up perfectly. For years I have heard how we, as Americans, are terrible and oafish and boorish, while the Europeans are perfect and happy. I've heard that our foreign policy is terrible, that the Republicans are responsible for world hunger, and that Al Gore would have saved us all from ourselves. What's terrifying to me is that most of this has come from the most intelligent people I know.
I cannot conceive of anything more complicated than a political structure. Many intelligent people seem to think that because they understand math or programming that they can make the same judgments about the world and the people in it. The concept that we, as Americans, are pig-headed for not apologizing--or better yet, that an apology would resolve this situation with no fallout--is to me the most ludicrous notion I've heard in quite some time.
Please don't allow yourselves to think that an "isolated event" such as this collision can be so simply resolved. Whatever comes of this will shape US-China relations for the next several years. Do any of you really think it just coincidence that this should happen at the beginning of a new presidency, when we stand against China on the very hot issue of Taiwan? I realize that almost everybody reading this site is too young to remember the Cuban missile crisis (myself included), but the parallels are quite similar. We have a "rogue" nation that has (whether intentionally or not is of no consequence) placed us, our technology, and our international relations in direct danger. We have a young new president who is un-tested in international politics. How better could China guage our future relations during the Bush years than to test him on the international stage? This is no accident. The Chinese are demanding an apology to see how much room we will give them in international affairs. The Germans did the same thing in the mid 1930's, and the world did exactly what you, the intelligencia, are recommending what we do. Can you think that we and our national ideals and precious culture could possibly have survived having ICBM's parked off our coast in the 1960's?
The only thing that makes this issue stand out is the size and relative "importance" (ie, power) of these two countries. The world's 2 largest military powers face a crisis, and the rest of the world is keeping silent. The rest of the world is also using this incident to guage the future of American politics. Will Bush be hard-lined? Will he endanger the lives of 24 soldiers for national security? Will he bow to Chinese pressure? If he does, will there be room for the other "rogue" nations of the world to try similar tactics? If so, does that open up the doors for terrorism? After all, a nation weak on international affairs is an easy target for terrorism. It gets them focusing internally and even weaker externally. The implications of any decision on this matter are extremely far-reaching. No nation should take an incident such as this lightly and simply cast a dis-interested answer at it.
If the incident were truly an accident, no apology would be necessary, "face" or not. We are seeing an obvious attempt at policy-change, and an attempt to sway international favor farther from the US through embarrassment. Only by our dedication to finding a mutually beneficial agreement to this crisis can either nation be respected in the years to come.
My god man, I hope you don't drive a semi for a living! Perhaps the "root cause" of the accident would be on the part of the vehicle that was sitting in the blind spot, but guess who's going to be faulted for the accident? That's right, the vehicle that tries to occupy space that's already occupied. No matter if it's a blind spot or not. Don't try to use this as an excuse when you're changing lanes on the highway...it will not work!
Good point. I didn't think of that. I'm not sure if military planes have black boxes, and I'm really kind of doubtful that the Chinese planes do, but they could be a valuable asset to the truth. I wonder if we'll ever hear of them, even when our's is back in US hands????
Setting aside the thoughts of the Matrix, I don't believe it's inconceivable that the US Gov't is lying here. Obviously, either China or the US Gov't is lying about who caused the accident. Of course, AFAIK, there were only 3 eye witnesses (assuming the US aircrew as 1 witness, since I'm sure they will all have the same story) and one of them (the Chinese fighter pilot) is missing. The 2 remaining witnesses both have self-preservation at stake here, as do the respective governments. Everybody stands to gain by lying, and I think it just depends on which soil your feet are planted on right now as to who you believe.
Anybody else notice Katz' repeated, repetitive, redundant and duplicated opening paragraph? Deja vu is bad enough...but when it's deja vu on a Jon Katz' article, Yikes!
Could you provide a link?
I couldn't agree more. Well said!
I wasn't actually making a point, I was just suggesting that all the next 100+ posts will fall into one of the above categories - and I'm bored of reading about it - that's all !!
Two wrongs may not make a right, but three
.. and I'm getting bored ! :
It should really be multiple choice, not a slashdot thing. The comments will now go along the lines of either
1) USA should apologise - they killed a Chinese pilot off the coast of China - what would happen if it was the other way around ?
2) China should apologise for the fighter pilot being too cocky and crashing
3) They both should apologise
4) China should release the airmen, but keep the plane
5) America shouldn't be a bully
and it goes on and on and on and on YYAAWWWNN.
(apologies for those offended by my lack of tact for this international incident, but this is a tech web site. I really don't want to read about this here. I want to read about un*x, windoze, space shuttle things, new cool gadgets, moon and mars rock etc etc).
Two wrongs may not make a right, but three
There is only reason to apologize if was an accident. When one does something on purpose, one is not "sorry".
BTW, who the hell is "we"
BTW(2), prepare for a second fake cold war!
Well said. And I spend my last mod point yesterday on something stupid.
I heard a similar discussion on NPR last week but couldn't remember enough detail to sound like I knew what I was talking about.
What I thought was difficult is that their civilian leaders assumedly demanded the apology because they thought they'd get it and the PLA would think they were tough. Now that they're not getting it, they can't back down without losing face to the PLA who would love to have more say about who gets what position in the next government which is what the civilian government were trying to minimize in the first place.
BTW : Peoples Liberation Army
In case anyone is interested, here's the link to The People's Daily (in English) which according to Yahoo is the Communist Party's official newspaper.
Wow, I guess you're right, because I'm sure since Bush holds the highest office in the land he doesn't have to authorize or even dictate what the foriegn policy people do, right? And let's just remember who hired Colin Powell for a minute -- George W. Bush. So instead of calling me a fucking idiot, why don't you offer up some evidence that proves me wrong, otherwise you're just another idiot slashdotter posting stupid comments and not understanding what the hell you're reading.
---
evil adrian
A vote for Bush is a vote for unapologetic Texan rage dicating four years of foreign policy.
---
evil adrian
You got caught using a camcorder taping someone else inside their house and your rationale is that you are outside and walking real slow.
Enemy? Hostage? Do you have to use wrong words to the situation to fueling up the emotion?
So you think War is fun? War is not like watching movie. Ask your God tonight if he likes war.
I'm really sick of people like you thought of themselves as heros by encouraging warfare, while let their own people bleed and die of war.
This plane was doing reconnaissance. It was not disguised in any way, it was not attempting to evade detection.
Yes! You brought it up with reason! Unlike many others who choose to confront rather than compromise.
We need to convey the rational message to China, rather than strong opposition and denial. The whole instance is a mixing of misunderstanding and mistakes which could be solved by reasoning. However, both parties stand confirm on conceptual believes, which make the situation worse.
See how bad I got flamed for not standing on US' side. What I want to say is, this case can be solved, we all know what's happned. Please just don't fuel up the negative comments, like using the word 'spyplane'(Time), nation of enemy(NY), 'We SPY, SO?!! Gimme back my crew or WAR'(/. ers).
Let's not argue over international airspace, isn't it clear that the plane is a spy plane? That's what makes China so upset.
Both parties want to settle the case, but it turns out arguing over a word apologize.
The press, media and us, shouldn't have fueled the debate over faces. China wants no more spy, US wants crew, is that so hard to compromise? Should we help them(those idiots in both government) making things so complicated?
Your attitude in this matter is just plain rediculous. Why should the United States have to apologize for the hot-dogging of a chinese fighter pilot in his old F-8? What aggrivates me about this scenario is that people such as yourself fail to realize the wound on our military's integrity that would result from apologizing to the Chinese. I happen to be a fighter pilot candidate in the Marine Corps, and if what the news tells me is true, that Chinese pilot deserved to die after flying so close to our plane. First and foremost, when not engaged in combat and the use of deadly force is not authorized, the pilot has a responsibility to maintain a safe distance from his potential adversary so as not to cause a potentially fatal accident. The Chinese F-8 pilot violated this by flying UNDER our plane where the American pilot could not determine the F-8's position. Complain all you want to, but the United States should NOT apologize for a military accident that it did not cause.
Not sure I grasp your argument about the economy, but doesn't this assume that there is no growth in industry first? China has had 8% GDP growth annually for the past 15 years or so. If there is growing demand for labor, wages would remain constant as long as this demand is met. This isn't just the gov't shuffling stuff around, but a combination of internal and foreign investment. China is Communist in name only. Pro-market Facism would probably be a better label. I think China will remain dependant on exports for awhile, but look at Japan--they built a modern economy almost entirely focused on them. Similar to Japan after WWII, China is growing from a pretty low position, so 8% GDP growth into the forseeable future isn't impossible. I agree that the biggest threat to growth are the vestiges of Communism, in this case the old State Owned Enterprises. Fortunately, the gov't is slowly tearing the SOEs down.
But as for gov't sponsored treatment of individuals, what do you call the 250+ years of slavery? That was supported for 250+ years by the American gov't (not just the South!) Remember, the Founding Fathers owned slaves... Anyway, this wasn't a good defense, not really any defense at all. It was more along the lines of "People in glass houses." Sorry!
To be perfectly honest, I welcome China, not because they're a perfect utopian society, but because I honestly think they're doing the best that they can do, given the destruction of their country by the Japanese, and later Mao. China is not Taiwan--its 1.2 billion people, 80% of whom are still farmers (compare 2% in developed countries.) Yes, human rights are a problem, but China is improving. I've lived in Beijing, and never heard one person complaining about human rights. They complain about corruption, wealth disparity, pollution, taxes, getting into a good school, stuff that people all over the world worry about. And most important, they think the Communist Party is doing a pretty good job, all things considered. Not perfect, but a good deal better than most.
"As far as the average Chinese person's point of view, they'll believe whatever their goverment-owned press and their government-filtered Intranet (I don't even consider them to have Internet access) tells them to believe, and they'll lap it up." Wrong. Look at the explosion in the school several weeks ago. The gov't came out with some bullshit story about a lone madman, and because of the public outcry, the gov't had to change their stance. The Chinese aren't idiots, and they certainly don't believe everything their gov't tells them. As for access to information, Chinese nationals in the US have access to CNN, NYT, etc--but they still side with China on this one. One good point of Katz article was that nationality trumps free information.
Okay, read my post, and notice where I said that Mao is one of the people that fucked the country over. I'm not whitewashing what the Chinese DID, I'm saying what the Chinese are DOING. For the same reason, I think Tiananmen was an unfortunate neccessity. The biggest killer in Chinese history is instability. Mao brought instability in a big way, and millions died. The reason the Chinese still support the CCP is that for the last 20 years, they have brought real stability to China, improving the lives of 1.2 billion people. Go look at what those activists at Tiananmen were saying by the very end. They wanted to overthrow the gov't. Yeah, nice idea, but how many more millions would have died if they'd been successful. Read Li Guanyu (pinyin spelling. Former prime minister of Singapore) on this--he is a remarkable realistic and intelligent man. As for the Chinese not willing to critisize their gov't, go ride in a taxi--you'll hear more four-letter words about the gov't than you'd ever want to hear. They're not afraid to speak up against their gov't, but they honestly don't give a damn about human rights the way we westerners expect them to.
I live in the real world. I'd love to have peace and democracy everywhere, especially in China, but there are serious historical, economical, and social problems that will prevent that. So, I'll settle for the best in a bad situation. As for campaigning for change, go read the news about the protests that have broken out in the Chinese countryside about taxes. No, the Chinese are not afraid of protesting--farmers, miners, laid off workers have been doing so for some time. Yes, what the Chinese gov't did at Tiananmen was brutal. I'm not debating that. Given the situation, given the loss of life that would have resulted from political chaos, I found it a nessesary evil. Life sucks. Not to divert the topic, but the Chinese gov't is hardly the only brutal gov't in existence. The democratic US has committed some pretty heinous atrocities in its time. No Gun Ri? My Lai? How about wiping out millions of American Indians? How about arming Iraq to fight Iran? Just being a democracy doesn't make one perfect. The 'democratic' Nationalists (aka the "Good Guys") were juist as brutal if not more so than the CCP. If China was a democracy today, I don't think it would act any differant than it does now.
Taiwan has historically been a part of China. It was taken from them first by the Japanese, then by the fleeing Nationalists (who to my knowledge have never formally renounced their intention to reconquer China.) Interestingly, Taiwanese maps show China as the Qing Dynasty borders(c. 1911)--which include Tibet and MONGOLIA. So its not just the PRC. China has a historical sphere of power, and Tibet falls within that. A more interesting scenario is what if at some time in the future, China pulls a Japan and sends troops to SE Asia to 'protect the Chinese minorities' in certain countries. Far fetch, but interesting to contemplate...
Not going to happen. The Chinese have nothing to lose from holding out for an apology. WTO? Olympics? Do those really matter when your population would lynch you for giving in to "American Imperialsim"? Look at it from the average Chinese person's point of view. On of your embassys gets bomb under dubius circumstances by a country that is supplying arms to what you consider a renegade province. Then, while spying on you, there is a collision. Wouldn't you be pissed to? The Chinese people think that their gov't caved in way to easily over the embassy bombing, so their going to take out their frustration by holding on for a real apology. I wouldn't expect either side to give in too soon.
Same here .. I am kinda disappointed that a story like this even made it on Slashdot .. make's me wonder about the validity/worth of other stories ..
Actually it was an EP-3. A variant of the P-3 Orion fitted for Electronic survailance. With thanks to dictionary.com: spy (sp) n., pl. spies (spz.) 1. An agent employed by a state to obtain secret information, especially of a military nature, concerning its potential or actual enemies. 2. One employed by a company to obtain confidential information about its competitors. 3. One who secretly keeps watch on another or others. 4. An act of spying. (3) is the closest, but its not exactly a secret in an EP-3 - theyre not exactly able to hide from radar. In other words they werent spying.. they were.. 'observing' and were probably fully expecting to be intercepted. I dont imagine the collision was planned, as China seem to think. :o)
-.-. --.-
Heh, I just realised how inappropriate my signature is. :P
-.-. --.-
To the Chinese, and especially the chinese military, posturing is all important. They know they can't fight a war with the US (They'd lose 75% of their air force in the first week and we'd lose, hum, 2 or 3 planes), and then heads would roll in Beijing.
What they want is to look good.
So what the US should do is say: "Oops, we made a mistake, the plane was in Chinese airspace, it was a mechanical error. The pilots thought they were in International space. The chinese pilot was right, and we're sorry. Here's $20 million for the plane, $1 million for the family to compensate for their loss. And let's forget all about this and get all the congressmen and businessmen back happily trading.
Then, after we get our pilots back and most of the plane, we have an independent agency study the thing, and then, much later, we say: "oops, made a mistake, the plane was in international airspace after all, and, well, we withdraw our apology."
An everybody in the world, Chinese included, will realize we were lying through our teeth earlier, and it's okay, it's called bluffing. And then, next year, we revoke their Most Favored Nation trading privileges (that's definitely going to happen anyway).
The other thing that the Chinese fail to understand is that when a foreign nation messes with US servicemen and servicewomen, it's not about politics anymore. The american people can be very tenacious (how long have we been circling Cuba?)
The last point I'll make is that the internet is not going to mean anything in a country with a strong secret police. They need a Jeffersonian revolution and public accountability before the internet does anything there.
"Piter, too, is dead."
clean up ???!?! Who are you kidding? 4 percent of the worlds population and 23 percent of the CO2 emmissions, and the US are still pulling out of the Kyoto agreement because George W has to payback all the companies who funded his campagain.
Political satirist (sp?) are having a field day in Europe since Americans elected that monkey as their president
Obviously, you don't read your history books.
The man who brought the knowledge of splitting the atom and creating China's first atomic bomb was a Chinese scientist, who was educated at an American Ivy League university.
During the McCarthy era, when the guy went psycho and started accusing everyone of being communists, talk about Bill of Rights violations there, he singled out this Chinese scientist for being a communist. And later on, this scientist was expelled from the United States. Although some people thought that he was too valuable to let out of the country, others regarded him as inconsequential, and believed that he didn't have enough knowledge to build an atomic bomb.
Obviously, this Chinese scientist proved them wrong. He was sent packing to China, and when he arrived on Chinese soil, the government put him to work on the Chinese atomic bomb project. And he succeeded.
Unlike the Russians, which used spies to steal the secrets of the atomic bomb, the Chinese invention of the bomb was completely legitimate.
A Chinese-American scientist, stripped of his American citizenship, and deported back to China against his will, was the father of China's atomic bomb project.
The Drudge Report is reporting that the South China Morning Post is reporting the following
My father's uncle's cousin's daughters ex-boyfriend says that's not true.
Seriously though, I just browsed past the SCMP website and didn't see anything about the plane being forced down. One wonders if Drudge knows that SCMP is an english-language newspaper?
Why was the US plane there? It was spying on China, presumably to further its own military and economic goals. This act, performed within a country, is treason, punishable by death.
That's not true at all. Spying "performed within a country" is spying, not treason. When a nation's citizen betrays the government of his nation to another nation, that is treason. There's a very big difference.
While it is true that in many countries treason is punishable by death, in the "western" countries that is generally not the case. I don't recall Aldridge Ames or the recently captured FBI spy facing the death penalty anywhere, even though they were American citizens.
In the matter of spying on another country, I seem to recall the United States expelling a group of Russian spies less than a month ago. Shortly afterwards the Russian government expelled a group of American spies. No harm no foul.
I think that you'll find that most modern cases will end up like the US/Russian incident. Nobody wants to create an international incident by executing someone else's citizen, even if they were spying. The only exception that I can think of might be during a time of war between two countries or some other state of increased hostility.
2)The internal politics of China in this are very important. There has been speculation in the fringe press that this incident was set up by the Chinese Military for their own goals. While this is speculation, if true, this leaves them (the Chines Military) with a win/win situation. If the USA backs down, then they win in the international arena. If the USA does not back down then The Military gets to strengthen their position inside China.
While I won't speculate on motives or who caused the accident, I do think that you're on the right track here. It's my understanding that the Chinese Millitary and the Chinese Government don't always see eye-to-eye on these kinds of issues.
I seem to recall press reports claiming that the government was trying to work out a solution but was having problems getting the millitary to agree. That wouldn't surprise me one bit.
The crew is trained to destroy any sensitive equipment if it is about to fall into enemy hands
Yes, with axes no less. Seems to me that there should be a self destruct button and 24 parachutes on-board.
The Soviet Union used to do that frequently. Their aircraft would be met by US fighters, which would get close enough to take pictures, and would "escort" them all the way down the coast.
I had a friend who used to be in a sub-hunter group in the US Navy. He told me once that they actually found a Soviet sub off the coast of California steaming it's way into the San Franciso Bay area. I don't know if he was bullshitting me, but...
It's my understanding that these things happen all the time. As long as nobody is breaking any laws and everyone stays out of everyone else's air/seaspace, they just stare each other down for a minute and then go on their merry way.
I wonder how much of this is payback for the whole Wen Ho Lee thing at Los Alamos?
BTW, US fighters also pretty often flew dangerously close to Russian bombers or spy planes in international waters very close to *SOVIET SHORES*.
Good for them. I'm glad to know that when our guys are acting like jackasses they at least are careful enough not to hit someone else.
Aren't pissing matches fun?
Once open war is declared, our economy will boom. It'll be the answer to our recent economic downturn. Look at how WW2 pulled us out of the Depression.
Yeah, war is great for your economy. Just ask Japan, Germany, Vietnam, Korea, etc...
A war will boost your economy as long as you're winning it. If you lose, you screwed. But even if you do win the war, such a ridiculously reactionary action as declaring war on China would almost certainly cause the US to be hit with international economic sanctions. And those certainly won't help the US economy any. If you think that the recent economic downturn is ugly, wait until you feel the sting of being able to only have international trade with Taiwan and Israel.
I am constantly amazed at what kind of tripe gets modded up here.
A Soviet pilot defected in a brand new, top-secret MiG-25 and landed in Japan.
The pilot was defecting, so he asked for and was granted asylum.
Of course the Soviets were angry and demanded the MiG-25 back (which was almost totally unknown to Western intelligence at the time).
The US and Japan claimed that the plane was "evidence" in a trespassing (or something) case, and they refused to return the plane.
The plane was completely disassembled, photagraphed, reassembled, and returned a couple of weeks later.
I'd imagine something similar is going on in China now.
This is not about an apology. It's about time.
The crew and plane will be returned after all the parts have been examined.
Due to some strange time/space wormhole, the above post was obviously written about 2 years ago and just showed up now, as it's obviously not news.
Which is better -- people who just want to have their Big Macs and Budweisers, or people who want to control the lives of every other person in the world for an idealized goal only definable by a handful of people? Oh. My. God. You don't get it do you? You just described the American Culture TWICE. Americans make up 4% of the worlds population, but they do their level best to control everyone else on the planet to their advantage, stop talking such tosh and wake up.
-------------- Russ
Conscience? Is that *still* in the dictionary?
While I'm sure the Chinese politico is full of hardline totalitarianists, people on /. really ought to know alot more than they are letting on.
1] China is *not* a communist country.
2] Human 'rights' are not absolute, and are not the USAs to decide. Read Rustys posy on k5 for a better explanation than I could ever articulate.
-------------- Russ
Conscience? Is that *still* in the dictionary?
The exact moment that we apologize for that accident that was in international waters, then we see a fancy trial on Chinese TV with all 23 of our pilots going to jail for life, or worse, dying at the hands of the Chinese. DON'T THINK EVER THAT THE CHINESE WILL NOT KILL OUR SERVICEMEN, keep in mind that they kill their own people. Also keep in mind that China shot missiles over Taiwan the day that they held public elections. Either way, we have lost the plane. They are definitely keeping that. No doubt. We are playing with our servicemen's lives right now... trust that the government is doing everything to get them back. They know diplomacy better than I do. They also speak Chinese, which I do not.
Are you kidding we could attack and wipe out china in a day. I would rather nuke the world than apologize.
As I see it, there's a simple compromise to this whole mess. The problem: China wants an apology, but US dont want to appear soft. Solution: Have our great charismatic leader G.W.Bush express the following: "After much consideration, both for the safety of of the crewmen, and the relationship between our two countries, we have decided to 'apolologize' to China for the accident..." China will see it as a genuine apology, the mispronounciation is nothing but a typical trait of Bushist accent. US will not feel bad and weak, as in their mind, Bush never truly "apologized". Done
"Wipe them out. All of them."
-- Senator Palpatin (sp?) aka Da Emperor.
JonKatz comments re: identity politics somehow put me in mind of certain feminists, certain environmentalists and especially certain "religious" "leaders".
Maybe these identity politicians foreshadow the "Virtual States" we may expect in the future.
Too bad.
To make wide assumptions, and proclaim an idea a failure based on narrow interpretation is irresponsible journalism. Mr. Katz seems to feel that a Virtual Nation must meet his eliteist criteria. I am of the opinion that a rosey future, virtual nation, world-bank-government, homogenous, overpopulated,"CareBear" planet is not a place I necessarily want my children to live in. This is especially true if a Katzocracy requires me to fester with self-hatred like Herr Katz. To write with arrogance (stereotyping Americans Mr. Katz?) and assume you and a few others are the ONLY people with the answers is Facist by nature. A Virtual Nation may not be an answer at all. Hell...the last 50 years, MAD was a WORKING solution! The idea that mutual destruction and brinkmanship has a better track record so far than the Virtual Nation should hopefully taper that hubris I see peeking out from your words. I believe you would like nothing better than to be the same "Bully" on a world stage you profess to hate in a High School one.
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
China is nice eh? I am sure they were within their rights to kill 5000 in Tiennanmen Square too right? How about making children MAKE FIREWORKS instead of getting an education? Is that nice you propogandist freak? Seen and religious orders being persecuted in your part of China? Oh I forgot...they are already KILLING them all! Those Chinese....what a NICE bunch of guys. Your pilot RAMMED an unarmed PROPELLER plane and almost killed 24 people. Let's remember that the cowboy that died caused this crash, and the only apology owed is from the Peoples Army to the families of the US Airmen they almost killed. Weing Wu was a reckless idiot who deserved to die for his actions. Pull your nose out of the propaganda you Red-Book idiot and realize the facts. Under international law it can not be the US's fault in any way. The faster, more manuverable jet is ALWAYS responsible for the safety of all involved in an intercept. Flame over...
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
My GOD...you have no clue what was really going on. Why not read BEFORE forming an opinion. The US does not shoot down planes over international waters/borders. The Chinese have never sent recon planes, but the USSR had sent Tupolev Bear recon planes along the Atlantic coast all the time. US fighters followed international law and "escorted" them without incident. This is a SIMPLE assignment for a jet fighter, and the USA did it for 3 decades! Electronic surveillance is also common. The Chinese prefer fishing trawlers over aircraft, but ALL countries monitor open airwaves to look for intelligence. War and Politics live on good intelligence gathering. The USA is not at fault for anything. There is no narcissism in understanding an enemy's goal and not being a party to it. A US apology is a propoganda coup the Chinese can and WILL use to justify Tiennanmen, child labor, and whatever else they can wrap in "Patriotic Duty". The USA has been portrayed by the Chinese Military as the "evil hegemonistic nation". That nation bowing down to China would ensure the continuance of the current regime for another 20 years minimum. These are facts some Americans seem incapable of understanding or too lazy to care about. They just want to be little "Care Bears". Bring our troops home at any cost/disgrace, and go on hitting the bar to get a food pellet. There is a WORLD out there, and the US has the onerous job of playing responsible parent till a few other "adults" join in. Understand your world you live in before posting ignorant, PC drabble like this.
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
As a naturally cynical person, I have to question the facts presented by both sides of the U.S.-China standoff.
Because the U.S. offers the argument their spyplane was on automatic pilot at the time of the collision, and with there being no way for anyone but the crew of the downed plane to accurately say what happened, why do some of you side unequivocally with one side or the other?
The U.S. government is a government with a history of coverup in the face of ego, screwup and competition. I question whether the nation even successfully landed on the moon.
The Chinese government is a government long accustomed to thought and behaviour policing, silence and extreme control. I question whether the nation is witholding either the truth or some vital piece of information.
Never rule out the idea that these two nations might be engaged in subtle propaganda warfare as we speak, creating facts for public consumption. Warfare is as much about thought control as it is about bombs and missles. Heck, at worst, we may even have another conspiracy on our hands.
Point: The Chinese are convinced the U.S. caused the collision. They then must have the means to determine what happened. Chances are, those means are the second-hand account of the surviving F8 pilot.
Point: The U.S. is convinced the Chinese are at fault for the collision. They claim to have pictures of the Chinese hotdogging in earlier intercepts, its their claim the plane was on automatic control at the time of the collision, and they offer the idea that it's the intercepting pilot's responsibility to avoid the intercepted plane, especially when that plain is larger and less manoeverable.
The truth is that as ordinary civilians, we may never know the real circumstances bringing about this situation. Personally speaking, if I were to determine fault from the information given in the news reports, I'd say the Chinese largely, if not completely at fault. Responsibility as the pilot of a very nimble aircraft should mostly be with that person.
Could it be that the reactionaries who despise their own government, who want it out of their lives, who demand the right to bear arms specifically to fight their government, could it really be those same people who now cheer on their government's espionage and imperialism, and support, demand even, that same government's interference in the affairs of other nation states? Surely not. Why, that would be hypocrisy of the first order.
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
Is there any point in trying to use rational argument with you?
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
How very true. Dubya could even use his new yardstick of "causing harm to the US economy" (cf Kyoto, EU-US safe harbor et al) to sell the apology to the US people
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
I'm not confused about either of those words, and chose the one I did deliberately. You seem to be confusing typing on a keyboard with making a reasoned statement. I can't debate against gibberish. You must be one of the trolls I've been told not to feed. Bye.
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
With hard-liners in power in the US and the PRC, a major offensive to "unify" the mainland and its estranged cousin is more likely than ever. Add to the mix: (1) the cockiness that China feels after this minor 'success', (2) isolationism on the part of the European powers, which will also sideline Australia (they'll do what the Commonwealth does), and (3) the lack of any real Japanese military presence anywhere, and it appears to me VERY likely that in the next decade China will either invade Taiwan or at least assist sympathetic residents in a coup attempt. The US will be the only player committed to helping the nationalist government of Taiwan, and it won't be a walk in the desert either.
But now getting to the meat of the matter, the plane incident itself. As far as we know, the crach took place on the western side of the South China sea, an area that most people consider international waters, but that China claims as their own. China claims a lot of things as their own, so this isn't particularly relevant. The first big sticking point is that the plane didn't ask to land on Hainan. The question is largely a formality, because some UN convention (don't remember which) said that you have to help out a plane that's gonna crash. So they would have said yes, but they should have asked before they landed. Since they didn't, this gives China one more reason to hold them: they violated Chinese airspace by not asking.
The other big issue is GW's handling of the issue. Several times he's said that China "should do the right thing" and hand the pilots back. What about the US "doing the right thing" and not sp[ying on the internal communications of China. Also, he shouldn't be trying to intimidate the Chinese with these threats. When you have a culture (like the Japanese) who are HIGHLY ritualized and love their honor, you don't wanna keep threatening them and giving them more things to keep their pride up over. I think it's clear that the hawks, rather than the doves, are in control.
Lastly, imagine the situation is reversed. A Chinese spy plane is three miles out of California, and it's clipped by a US fighter sent to intercept and watch it, and the American dies. You can be quite sure of several things in this situation. Firstly, that the Chinese would have been "encouraged" heavily (by an armed escort) to land at the local military base. That the operators would be totally grilled by the (insert favourite government organization here). That the plane would not be going back to China any time soon. And that the Gov't would start going on about how evil China is for spying on the innocent USA, and how they're violating (insert various conventions here), and that's it's ungodly.
Bush should suck it up, appologize, and remember that Jiang owes him one the next time they go to an arms or environment conference, or a touchy security council issue comes up.
And on the popular /, subject of Jon Katz bashing, I actually like this piece. Not too much content and lots of fluff, but pleasently readable fluff.
Cue The Sun...
My understanding was that not only the Russians, but the British, French, and China run Recon/listening post vessels off the coast of the USA.
All are required by convention to stay 12 miles off shore and when they tread to closely, the Coast Guard travels by them and gives them a broadcast about their distance. Very non-hostile but effective measure.
ONEPOINT
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Well there is a difference between rules for emergency landing if we are hostile or non-hostile. Hostile nation tries to make a landing on a military base would be escorted all the way down and might be signaled to dump his/her aircraft without getting close to the base. Non-hostile action would be just escorts.
In reference to what the rights are of the vessel in the airbase. It's a Milatary Base, not accessible to public/commerical vessels, so the rules that work are military.
My understanding is that a war vessel can dock in an emergency as long as the port is commercial. Also maritime industry has a long history about safe harbor so sometime it's considered tradition, BUT safe harbor does not have to be applied. Russian War Vessel come into NY and VA. all the time but first utilize the public docks (or wait for clearance) and if the vessel is cleared then it can utilize the military docks.
onepoint
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Nope Slavage rights can only be claimed
1) when vessels are abandoned
2) or a request has been made by the vessels captain and negociated
3) emergency landings by aircraft military or not, do not qualify for salvage otherwise every airlines that has requested an emergency would be subject to salvage law.
4) recovery of a military vessel in international waters can be salvaged but you risk international headache if your caught.
5) old military vessels WWI, WWII are considered off limits by sovereign nations unless special diving permits are issued.
Ever wonder why the Bismark (WWII Nazi battle ship) has never been raise, Nor some US Vessels. It's because the respective government won't issue the "rights".
ONEPOINT
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you american are SO full of crap. Because CNN says mig hit the proppy, it doent make it true. Are you even watching FOX news?? All their interviews are on american side - where did objectivity go? Let us see the blackbox of the proppy and mig (if it has some :) ).
I would like to point out that it is this hyperreality / super communication dream land you speak of that is about to bring horrible blood shead to our realm again. The ONLY reason this has become a contest of honor between our nations is because of the virtual community. Chat rooms and web pages in China just gave our media something to spin as a tool to motivate a international crisis. It was a accident. Life was lose and honor and face was not damaged until people started getting fuled by the media. China did its best not to make it a cover story for a good bit. Now its a chess game. China will hold our people until they have picked the plane clean and then maybe let them go alive. It is not about whos fault the accident was but who will end this. How it will end. Bush sees it is not like "the old days". He knows we can not just "duke it out". His administarion is doing the best anyone probly could in their shoes. This bit about choosing our words carefully because chinesse hold word sacred. Eh? I am sorry this is not a time to play the I am nobleir than thou art game. China is not a acnient country. Hate to tell ya they had a major society shift in the last 55 years? (WWII which we saved their butts from Japan). We are two nations caught in a bad acident that we should be helping each other survivie it and not let media and chat rooms fuel petty differnces. China is ruled by thier military and drug warlords. We will never be able to make political amends in which our men and women will come home alive. Thier military would rather make them examples to the world of China's power. Weak I say. Real weak. Static Magick
what about the "Vienna Convention on Consular Relations"
Maybe the Chinese tought that since the US does not give a damn about the convention (check cases about jailed people from countries like Mexico and Germany in Texas, where no representative of those countries was told about a citizen of their countries being detained, found guilty and senetenced to death penalty, which should happen under the rules of the convention) then they could do as they poleased as well?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
China is not a friend.
May I ask what has done China to the US?
Thanks
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Taiwan is an invaluable trade partner, and if China were to conquer Taiwan, it would drastically raise prices on many goods, especailly compter parts, that come into the US.
Let me put it this way: tomorrow there is a Civil War in the US, lets say the governor of Texas leads one side and the current Vicepresident leads the other.
After a horrible war the VP looses and scapes to Hawaii, where he holds on thanks to the big distances and that the war effort left his enemy far too weak to attempt to conquer the islands.
Do you get my drift? Taiwan would not be conquered, because they are not and have never been an independent country, but a rebel province, The original inhabitants of the island were not asked if they wanted this situation which was imposed by the dictatorship of Chain Kan Shek and its Kou Mi Tang party, now thankfuly out of power. Taiwan is not Tibet and as despicable as the Chinese gov. is that does not mean they don't have a legitimate claim to the reunification of Taiwan with China.
That this should happen in a peaceful, democratic manner is another matter, but most countries today recognize the PRC as the legitimate goverment of all of China (and most of the same goverments condemn in general China's attitude in Tibet).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Who says they don't? They don't fly off the coast of california obviously, but I bet there are chinese spies buzzing all around Japan, a nation which is under our military protection (since we won't let them have one of their own). As well as South Korea and the Phillipines.
And since when have any nations apologized for remote surveillance - Russia, US, or whoever? There's no reason to apologize for that. Why should we apologize for an incident we haven't been allowed to investigate ourselves? I don't understand why more people aren't asking THAT question directly. And since it almost certainly was their pilot's fault, it would be foolish to apologize for it and appear weak.
cryptochrome
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
How to Apologize, American Style To: Premier Dung From: President Bush The United States is truly sorry that your nation is not capable of training your pilots to fly without striking other aircraft. We are also sorry that you people lack the honor to respect the international laws governing collision avoidance between aircraft when flying in international airspace. We further regret that you cannot be trusted to respect the integrity of sovereign aircraft forced at gun point to land on your soil after your inept pilot forced a collision. We truly regret the state of incompetence demonstrated by the People's Dictatorship of China. That being said, you are holding our servicemen hostage, illegally. You are holding our aircraft, illegally.I am sorry to inform you that all your Ambassadors, aides, businessmen, and students currently residing in the United States will have their visas revoked at midnight tonight. I am also sorry to inform you that all Chinese assets in the United States are frozen. I am sorry to inform Beanie Baby collectors that all imports from the PDC will be halted. All foreign aid monies to the PDC and all IMF etc funds are cancelled. I am not sorry to announce, however, that sales of advanced technology military equipment to the Republic of Taiwan will be accelerated. Nor am I sorry to announce that two additional carrier battle groups will be assigned to patrol the waters off the coasts of the PDC. I'm sure I can think of more things to do if I don't have my airmen and airplane returned by midnight, tonight. Your friend, GW.
You're right. China doesn't send spy planes over America. Then again, we didn't send a spyplane over China. We operated outside of the internationally recognized borders of China according to the standard agreed upon by every other nation. China only decides that in this instance that doesn't apply. (Does this sound vaguely like the Korean Air Lines shoot-down back in the 80's?--I realize that's stretching too far back for some, but the "oldsters" among us can agree/dissent) Of course we're checking up on the Chinese. Have they ever given us a reason not to? Our failure to pay attention to the Chinese resulted in thousands of Marines dead at the Chosin Reservoir when the "volunteer army" of the Chinese poured over into North Korea. Our intelligence helped keep a nuclear war from starting when this "peaceful" nation decided to launch ICBM missiles across the Strait of Taiwan--I'd say that's probably a good thing. You contradict yourself in your vision of China. You call China (of the future) a "King Khan" state but say that "it also does not have territorial ambitions". First, "King Khan" is right. Ever heard of Genghis Khan? Conquered almost all of Asia and moved as far as Germany on his way west before he died? Things haven't changed much. The CIA World Factbook lists 13 territorial disputes currently involving China and its neighbors. Maybe these are just "claiming back old lands, like Taiwan" (not included in this count). Then again, China's been around a few centuries--it can claim anything it wants on that argument! Have you considered the fact that Chinese culture considers anyone not Chinese (specifically Han) to be nothing more than "barbarians" or "foreign devils"? Most cultures are no better at this, but please don't make the Chinese out to be any less nationalistic, or any less ready to force their culture on another, than they are. Interesting points you've made, yes. But you see this issue through a decidedly rose-colored glass, IMHO
Many people reject the idea that America is a melting pot. These people claim the proper metaphor would be a "tossed salad", with each of the various types of people maintaining their own identity (more or less).
I would argue that regardless, the government of the US has stopped representing the people of the US, whether they be a melting pot or a tossed salad.
The best evidence I can site in my support (besides the fact the most Americans do not vote) is the most recent national elections. The liberals supporting Gore claim they got cheated, the people who voted for Nader say the media unjustly banned them from the debates (and thusly serious consideration), and the people who voted for Bush blame a faulty designed ballot!
Whatever America was, or is supposed to be, it is NOT a democracy.
I also see the point about conformity. There are hundreds of media organizations, but if you look behind the stage props, you see that only a handful of independent media giants own these numerous media outlets. And how else do most Americans form opinion on anything, if not through the major networks?
A democracy works only with an educated people. And the media is being used to spread state-approved propoganda.
You want alternatives, you say? Check out http://www.indymedia.org for beginners. Tell em slashdot sent ya.
Peace.
People tired of the usual media tripe visit the
Airplanes have a huge blindspot. In fact, its so huge, they rely on electronics to navigate. This surveillence aircraft therefore knew the jet was there at all times. My guess: Maybe the autipilot kicked the plane into a bank for a programmed turn, and the jet was unfortunate to be under its wing at the time. In which case the pilot of the US aircraft should be cited for not turning off the autopilot while knowing a jet was operating in close quarters. And also the jet pilot should be cited for operating dangerously close to another aircraft.
People tired of the usual media tripe visit the
Actually, the EP-3E is equipped with some of our most sophisticated electronic surveillance gear, and I believe the plane in question had recently recieved an upgrade to a more advance electronics suite. I forgot where I heard it, but it essentially represents a loss on the level of when one of our U2s was shot down over Russia (incidentally, the U2 actually was a spyplane, built for stealth and undetectability. The EP-3E is a lumbering monster that was actually converted from a submarine killer). Also, it did have a self-destruct mechanism of a sort; it's equipped with a system that wipes the contents of all their recordings and computers. However, it would be impractical and/or unsafe to install an explosive self-destruct mechanism that would destroy sensitive equipment, which is why the provide several helpful fireaxes. It's also worth noting that usually an EP-3E shouldn't be in a position where it could be captured. It's not meant to fly over hostile territory, and ditches very well in water, but in this case the second Chinese fighter forced them to land on Hainan.
I would just like to comment on a factual error in the primary post. Unless the person was referring to China in both cases, he is wrong. According to military authorities, unlike the Russian-American aerial standoffs during which, the closest either countries' fighter planes got to a spy plane was 400 ft, except during the occasional few instances where Russian pilots would surprise American spy planes by flying underneath the plane, shooting upwards so that the fighter would be directly in front of the huge spy plane so that the jetwash from the Russian fighter would cause the spy plane to experience turbulance (Like the accident that caused Maverick and Goose to lose control, only the spy plane is much larger and sturdier.). The Chinese on the other hand had no respect for US spy planes. Often they would approach and be closer than 100 ft. There are even several instances where the Chinese fighter pilots were inside of 30 ft. These are airplanes traveling at high speeds. Any kind of loss of control when two planes are that close can cause disaster. Saying that the US is wrong is like citing fault to an aircraft carrier for running into a fishing boat. The fishing boat is much more maneuverable than the aircraft carrier. It can move out of the way much easier, just like the fighter pilot could move out of the way much easier than a large spy plane. What happened can be boiled down to a dispute over Right-of-way. And in no way did a fighter plane have right-of-way over a large spy plane. But the media does have a strangle-hold on what Americans believe these days, so ignorance can most likely be forgiven in this case, so long as people realize that this was, in fact, China's fault. They needed an excuse to jump at America, and here is there chance to gain some sympathy from the ignorant of the world.
You are evidently confusing "rationality" with "rationalization." In any case, Truth is one notch ABOVE logic. Some of the greatest tragedies of history were deliberately perpetrated in the name of what is or seems to be "rational" or logical. Many a "final solution" has been based on logic. Turning the other cheek is a applicable philosophy as is not spitting in the Buddha's face. That works as long as one doesn't turn that cheek to gunfire.
Rien n'est plus beau que le creux du 0.
like the "Taliban religio fanatical assholeo culture..., like the communist culture of repression, emprisonment of dissidents, execution of political "enemies," etc. Not so long ago those who tried to enliven the ancient traditions were put in prison to be "reeducated" into forgetting the past. Let me get this straight; Katz, you seem to be saying that the the US should apologize to the bastards who rammed an American plane in international air space just for being in their way; that the US should apologize to them for having to feed and keep the American prisoners. Maybe the Tibetans should also apologize for placing their heads in the way of Chineese rifle butts and bleeing upon their agressors. Maybe several hundred students should apologize for being killed by and thus wasting precious bullets, only they can't because they're dead. As I wrote earlier; some cultures suck, only no-one dares to say that because it's not politically correct. In other words, "sometimes it is better to smash face than to save face." -Con(phew)scious
Rien n'est plus beau que le creux du 0.
First of all, let me apologize for being a Canadian (a neighbo(u)r of the USA). Secondly, for butting in as a predjudiced "neutral" (Canadians, as you know, are neutral in everything, including sex, opinions, random thought processes, and neutrality itself. I humbly apologize for my American brothers who dared to use free air space and freedom itself to keep an eye on one of the most hypocritically fascist and opressively dangerous group of brainwashed and fearful people in the world.
Rien n'est plus beau que le creux du 0.
Me too, but I'm really going to miss those noodles and monkey brains, not to mention all that deep-fried dog with sweet sauce.
Rien n'est plus beau que le creux du 0.
... while trolling along cyberspace for a fellow victim, you deliberately violated the semantical integrity not only of the word "rational" but also the very sense of your own underdeveloped reasoning. Don't worry, in America there's a place for everyone. I'm sure if you keep trying, you'll find the courage to educate yourself. You should APOLOGIZE you know.
Rien n'est plus beau que le creux du 0.
I read a few comments and I am utterly disgusted to see the general POV is "no apology, it's their fault". So what? Freakin apologize already and get this thing over with!
We don't want another cold war, DO WE?
Sometime I doubt it. In fact, I believe that the US make a god damn lot of money out of WAR. And China too probably.
So yeah, let's get this thing over with. Push the big red button and get it over with. But don't pretend you're "humanists" or that you do that "for the people". Christ. Fucking hypocrits.
I mean, we've got a freakin madman at the head of the US (let's not get into China here...), don't you see we'll be going into another near-to-apocalypse situation all over again?
"Duck and cover, kids!"
PS: Please note that I share no sense of belonging to any state, especially not the US or China. This comment applies to both threats to our planetary security.
--
Semantics is the gravity of abstraction
Finally a subject that gets more responses than US immigration visas!
The American plane was in international airspace.
One of the jets got too close/up under the American plane, which attempted to get away, and in the process clipped the Chinese jet.
The surviving Chinese pilot admitted that he asked for permission to fire upon the plane.
He also stated that the American plane tried to leave the area and he forced it to land in China.
I am sick of people commenting on matters they don't read up on.
is what it sounds like you meant to say.
-dan
----
Our army declares that we were in international waters. The 'reds' declare that we were in Chinese waters. The only people who are ever going to know the truth are the actual people involved. What we hear is what the government is releasing to the press. What they hear is what their government tells their press to cover. Noone in our country is going to get the exact truth on the any military matter and we can't tell who is telling the truth. Why worry about it.
--never trust anything cute, i mean hell, look at an imac!
It would seem to me that this is very similar to the arguement that the globalization of trade will stop war. The Guns of August got set off by nationalism. If the Guns of April get set off, there may be no one left to record the folly.
I posted and all I got was this stupid sig
Anyway on a flambait point. I hope that china learn lots from that plane and that Bush's carier is wreaked by this. It would serve hime right for thinking he can play god with the worlds climite.
The Us 4% of the worlds population produces 25% of the woulds polution. Cheers guys, I allways wan't to be by the sea. BTW I am British
Shoot me
From what I know of Chinese culture an apology would be taken as a loss of face and grounds to try and get concessions. We have said repeatedly that we are sorry that their pilot is dead, but there is nothing for us to aplogise for. It is almost certain that our pilot did not cause that crash. Our plane is a very bi, very heavy plane. They do not change directions quickly enough to have taken out that Chinese airplane unless their pilot was totally incompetent.
"If there is nothing you are willing to die for, then you are not really alive." Myself
The P3 is not a "spy-plane" it's an electronic surveilance plane.
If you are in your house using your cordless phone anyone that is in range of the radio waves transmitted from your phone can pick it up and listen to your conversation. This is not illegal.. You'd probably be mad, but that doesn't change the fact that whatever is brodcasted into the public domain is in the public domain.
This is done routinely for military intelligence gathering not only by the US but by virtually every country in the world from the groud as well as from the air or space. If you think that your country isn't doing the same "information gathering" you are very naive. I'm from a country in Europe and I know that my country "does it" and other countries does it to us. It's not spying, if I'm stupid enogh to broadcast sensitive information to anyone who listens then I have to realise it's not private information anymore.
.sig? Get your own damn
One thing about this whole standoff that is being overlooked is that China needs to be closely monitored. If anything, the U.S. should increase surveillance flights off the coast of China. China is a potentially dangerous nation and has threatened over and over again to invade Taiwan. The only reason stopping them is the fear of U.S. involvement. The U.S. is not the only country that actively collects intelligence, and this is not a time for the U.S. to back down and admit wrong doing.
Your cool man, it's ok.
You're kidding, right? The Chinese civilization was alive and thriving back when Europeans were nothing more than a cluster of hill tribes; the United States is, what, just over 250 years old? I remember reading estimates that the Chinese (Han dynasty, et al?) have been around for over ten thousand years. Don't forget who the junior kid on the team is...
If the Chinese want to play with the big kids then they need to learn what it is like to get spanked!Interesting: China has nearly five times the population as the USA, and an economy nearly as large. Perhaps the States isn't in a position to threaten military action?
Regardless, I think the issue of military force completely misses the point. The issue seems to be revolving around whose waters the plane was in at the time, and therefore who shoulders the majority of the blame: it's like a giant game of chicken. Maybe there's trade issues in the background; maybe there's security issues. But all this posturing, it seems to me like there's something else on the table other than these pilots...If you think China is communist, you'd better read the Communist Manifesto over again. They are capitalists waving red flags around, and have been since the coup in 1976, shortly after Mao Zedong's death (exactly what Mao warned would happen if Deng Xiaoping became chairman). They are what's known as "phony communists".
If you'd like to know more about the difference between real and phony communism, and how to spot a phony communist, read Phony Communism is Dead, Long Live Real Communism! by Bob Avakian.
P30P73Z-H4X0R -- L1V3 4 TH3 P30P73, D13 4 TH3 P30P73, H4X 4 TH3 P30P73, A77 P0XX3R 2 TH3 P30P73!
The type of "culture" that was targeted for uprooting during the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution was old trash that glorified the old society: one characterized by feudal oppression, women with bound feet, religious superstition, primitive production methods, and all kinds of backwardness. Good riddance to art that glorifies feudal landlords, emperors, kings, images of oppressed women, etc.
Today, China only pretends to be socialist. The capitalist roaders in the party that Mao called upon the masses to overthrow did exactly as he warned they would when they came to power (after his death in 1976). They set China on the capitalist road, and today it is full of sweatshops. The bourgeois "right" to exploit the labor of others for profit has been restored. There is homelessness, poverty, and inadequate health care. The current Chinese government is not about liberating people from all forms of oppression and exploitation. It is HARD-CORE about selling out the Chinese people to the highest bidder.
The GPCR was about destroying the old and creating the new. A new culture that promotes equality, not inequality. Proletarian internationalism over narrow nationalism, and the liberation of all of humanity from the "Four Alls"-- all forms of exploitation, all forms of oppression, all the social relations that result from and serve exploitation and oppression, and all the ideas that result from and serve exploitation and opression. THAT's communism, not these capitalist exploiters waving red flags around who run the show in China today!
P30P73Z-H4X0R -- L1V3 4 TH3 P30P73, D13 4 TH3 P30P73, H4X 4 TH3 P30P73, A77 P0XX3R 2 TH3 P30P73!
First, the United States doesn't "impose" it's ideals on the rest of the world, yet many nations have used the U.S.'s "model" or government, economy, etc to re-establish their own government. Their constitutions are based on the U.S.'s, with changes which fit their own society. I have never seen the U.S. go into a country and say "change or all your base are belong to us." Stating this, as you did, is simply ignorant on your behalf.
Second, apology or not, the fault does not lie within the U.S. on this isssue. I have been keeping pretty abreast with the issue. Weeks ago, the U.S. complained about the agressive nature of the Chinese Fighters' intercepts of U.S. aircraft, yet nothing changed. Just a couple days ago, the Pentago said the U.S. aircraft was on AutoPilot when the collision occured (common sense would lead us to believe that a plane on AutoPilot does not make sudden turns). Finally, the Chinese aircraft is more agile and quicker. If it chose to do so, it would have very rapidly changed altitude or heading so the slower moving, 737-sized aircraft would not hit it. There is an international aerospace law that says the quicker and more agile plane is responsible for the cause of any collisions (this was represented a few years ago when a U.S. fighter craft hit a civilian airliner in the Northeastern U.S.).
Overall, this is a political game on China's part. They do not feel they get respect of the nations of the world. For them to receive an apology for the nation with the greatest economy and greatest military strength in the world would make them feel better about themselves in some weird, shallow sense. China has an inferiority complex and is playing a political game to try to change public opinion, in and outside of China.
The U.S. has no reason to apologize, the Chinese have no reason to demand an apology, and they should release our property and citizens or be held accountable for their "acts of war" against the United States and the "Free World". Maybe we won't drop a bomb on them, but such things as removing their favorable nation status, increasing trade sanctions, impeeding their ability to host the Olympic games, etc will be the ultimate warfare and will force them to act differently than they currently are.
Kindergarten teachers are the root of all evil.
And isn't apologizing just to apologize just another form of posturing? Don't do it if you don't mean it and the U.S. obviously wouldn't mean it.
I personally think they should have sent a Seal team in the first night to get them out. Then, they could have bombed the shit out of that airbase and sent Clinton over to lie (one of his talents) to the Chinese about it and say it didn't have anything to do with the U.S. Maybe he could even hold a few fund raisers (another of his specialties) over there to help with those tax cuts that Big Business Bush wants to shove through the U.S. Congress. How's that sound???
jveit
well if they keep doing flybys on our planes, obviously we are getting noticed. Might as well go all the way. Put a carrier say 100-200 miles off their coast and give them a escort. Of course this would look like an act of war, but i don't really give a fuck. We wouldn't have had this problem if we would have gone full scale in korea. Oh well, now we have to put up with these stupid commies. You guys actually think if we went to war with them that they would have all 1.5 billion or however many they have support them? wrong they would have internal revolts and resistance further crippling them. We haven't had a war in a long time, it is good for the economy, heheh.
I think they should just give the big planes an escort. I don't think some cheap ass chinese planes will fuck with a plane being escorted by superior american fighters.
As my father said:
"China had to pay Clinton for our military secrets. Bush just sends a plane over with them for free."
(just to clearify, he doesn't support Clinton)
I saw a documentary years ago which claimed that the pilot got to his job too late. The plane's navigation system required 30 minutes to syncronize, but he only gave it 10 minutes. If the plane was delayed for 20 minutes he would be in serious shit, because this is completely inexcusable in Kora. The plain took off as scheduled but in the wrong direction.
Later when he figured that he was lost, he didn't report in (over the radio), but tried to correct the course until the russians set the final destination...
Pure speculation but a nice entertainment.
People who post linguistic corrections got small penises.
Call me paranoid, but with all likelihood, none of the aforementioned analyses of this situation are worth a damn. Like in China, the United States government probably still commands quite a bit of sway over what the media releases to their respective public audiences. So any view of this story is most likely grossly skewed as opposed to what actually happened over there. At this point, the only people who know exactly what is going on and what is being said behind closed doors know the seriousness or direct implications of this situation. With any luck, they'll have it hammered out peacefully in not too long, but you can bet there's a lot more political maneuvering going on than even what we all see now.
We would have a lot more leverage in this situation if we had the Anti-Balistic missile system that Clinton axed last year.
I know the missiles missed by miles in the tests, but should that stop us from researching what could save millions of lives. We could say "Ahem, you will give us our men back NOW!" without fear of China ulimately nuking us.
Thank god we didn't use that logic against Germany during WW2.
I bet the first Bazooka test missed the target. Thank god we didn't have a president that said "oops, that system sucks, cancel it."
I don't know why we have treaties against AB missile systems. I could care less if everyone did a massive build up of AB missile systems... Then no one would fear a nuclear winter on this planet...
Personally I DO think that if this exact incident happened off our coast, things would be differnt. Why? BECAUSE IT IS THE JET PLANES FAULT.
Seriously, you don't think that China spys on the US? Please. Ever power spys on ever other power all the time. Hell, US had plans to invade Great Britten all the way up to 1936...just in case.
And besides. In world politics there are no rules and no playing nice. There is only national intrest. This has always been the case and this always will be the case. Just look at histroy to see this. And I think its funny. No one complains when US give countless millions of dollars to help other country's out, but when we stand up for what we believe in we are being bullies...riiiiight.
-Mark
-Mark
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
So, maybe we should demand an apology from Japan, because their fishing vessel off Honolulu was clearly at fault when it rammed into out submarine back in February, and it was in OUR waters!
Here's a perfect example of where we Americans did something unspeakably stupid, and admitted complete fault. Perhaps the Chinese government could learn from such an example, and follow suit.
HOT PASTRAMI!
how do you know it was an accident?
how do you know it was only one plane down?
how do you know it was only one chinese plane down?
what is a spy plane used for?
what do you do if you find a spy plane in your backyard and when it see you it runs for cover?
where is taiwan?
what is taiwan?
would be profitable a democratic independent taiwan?
why do you need windowz XP? =P? Xd?
There seem to be a lot of people here who are confused about the exact nature of the Chinese government. Let me remind you, The so-called People's Republic of China is a Communist Dictatorship. They have said explicity numerous times that the United States is their enemy. Unfortunately, most Americans today, and certainly the younger generations, do not know what kind of horrors people living under communist rule must face. The killing at Tiananmen Square was only the tip of the iceberg. The PRC is nothing more and nothing less than a gang of thugs who exercise power via military might. Apologizing to this gang of thugs is not an option. It is tragic enough that we recognize the PRC as a legitimate government; we must not appease them. President Bush needs to take action against the Chinese, not stand around pondering whether we should apologize for their pilot hitting our plane. The PRC is pushing our buttons; we have a new Chief Executive, and they want to know what they can get away with on his watch. Clinton folded like a bad poker hand; let's hope Bush doesn't make the same mistake. President Bush would do well to take a stance against China similar to President Reagan's stance against the Soviet Union. If Bush wants results, he should give the PRC a deadline, say 48 hours, to return the crew and our plane--fully intact--or we will recognize Taiwan's independence from the PRC (something we should do anyway; Taiwan is a democracy and should be encouraged and aided by the U.S.) and begin arming the Taiwanese military with the anti-missile technology that China so greatly fears. Take away their "Most Favored Nation" status. Vote against their hosting the 2008 Olympics. Bush needs to stop worrying about this incident harming our relations with China. They regard us as the enemy, and we regard them as a source of cheap labor. If anything, this conflict may have the beneficial effect of leading to an economic boycott on China. At one time, this country and its citizens knew that Communism is Bad. Now, we tend to see Communist countries as an economic benefit(!). If this standoff can change that, it may well be worth it.
A race of altruists is necessarily a race of slaves. A race of free men is necessarily a race of egoists. -Max Stirner
We're spending billions of dollars (a big chunk of our GDP) on national defense. And we never even use it! We shuffle our troops from base to base, sure, and we log our mileage and tally our days in service and hang our medals. But do we ever do anything productive? Do we ever kill anyone? Of course not.
Dude? Were you around for ANY of the cold war? We don't spend so much money on defense so we can kick peoples' asses. We spend the money so that we don't HAVE to kick peoples' asses. By being big and imposing, nobody's willing to challenge our INFINITE MILITARY MUSCLE (or so many would like to believe that's what it is). The point is, the reason the cold war never turned into a hot war is because we were so afraid of the Soviets AND they were so afraid of us. Of course nobody would ever DARE admit that at the time. I think Wesley Snipes in Crimson Tideputs it best:
In my opinion, in the nuclear world, the true enemy is war itself.
THAT'S why we'll never declare war on China, nor will they on us. 'Nuff said.
akad0nric0
akad0nric0
This sentence no verb.
If we had done something wrong then we should apologize, but we haven't, so this would be not appropriate. I personally wouldn't want the United States to capitulate to get me out of this bind just because it is the easy way out. I served six years in the Military. I was a team leader who led a team on reconnaissance missions in the former Yugoslavia. We carried sensitive material for which we had an appropriate scuttle plan in the event we thought we might become captive. I hope they did so before they landed. If these people are anything like my team they are sitting tight and keeping quiet and when speaking evading straight answers. Lets keep in mind that (even though a school can't prepare you for everything) because of their role they more than likely have attended S.E.R.E. (Survival Evasion Resistance Escape) school, which is supposed to prepare you for situations like this. Since they are allowing a bi-daily visit and they are in a unique situation of supposedly being treated better than the standard prisoner. The United States should start sending care packages of all sorts of goodies and electronic gadgets to make a bad situation easier for them not to mention piss the Chinese off.
Actually AsiaDisney. :-)
I come from the former Soviet Union and live in the US temporarily. When I check the news about incidents that took place during the cold war era, I find it unbelievable how biased and twisted the US news agencies were. It looks like someone from the government was telling them exactly what to say and write and it was very often way off the actual situation. Free country and free journalism, my ass.
Of course, exactly the same was true about the Soviet news, the picture that it painted of the US was pretty weird to say it mildly ;-)
But my point is that to remain objective, one should never trust the news agencies of an interested party. Try to find someone neutral, European news, for example, and base your opinions on that.
The fact is that the majority of the world views this incident as the US poking its nose where it doesn't belong and bullying its militarily weaker neighbors. I don't necessarily agree with that opinion because I understand the reasons why the US is doing stuff like that (especially since I'm living in Seattle, one of the closest major US cities to China), but this is the way how an average, neutral, non-biased world citizen sees the situation. And it would be very useful and sobering for the US people to think about that, too.
When men used to be men
see subject
The americans decide to teach the fighter pilot a lesson and do a little wing waggle or the like to give him a scare. Nobody here has ever had the temptation to pull on their car's emergency brake while some idiot is tailgating, right?
...Almost as bad as Japanese expressing surprise at learning that civilians were aboard military subs -- even though this fact was shown at length before the accident on CSPAN (cable/satellite/etc)
Quite a wild accusation... (possible, I guess) anyway, I've taken flight lessons in a tiny 2 seat plane - even in these tiny and slow planes, you don't "fly-by" another -- especially without radio coordination -- accidents are more probable if a person would do something that stupid. Now apply common sense and rules of physics to larger and faster planes...
Nationality isn't so much a problem in communications as culture. Yankees are Yankees, Canuks are Canuks, but that hasn't caused us to shoot at each other for 187 years or so. However, Indians are Hindus and Pakistanis are Muslims, and that DOES give then cause to shoot at each other (which sounds odd to us who sit in a third culture).
So far, I think the current situation is going along as well as can be expected for such vastly different cultures. It might go along more smoothly if the Chinese were more willing to meet us in the middle (we've been saying "accident" since the beginning, and we seem to have more or less written off the plane as a loss, but China's demands are the same as day one), but the Seventh Fleet hasn't blockaded Hainan island, and the crew hasn't been put on trial. About the worst that could happen right now is a big step back to 1990 or so.
As you probably know, most male mammals end up fighting with each other for various reasons (turf, women, insulting each others' mothers, whatever), and humans are no exception. However, if all of these fights were to the death, the species would die off pretty quickly, since the number of available males would drop off. So, the males managed to develop a "surrender reflex," where they'll give up when they know they're beaten. He who fights and runs away lives to mate another day.
However, the role of the females are a little different. They have the "protect the young" gene, where fighting to the death is the name of the game. Letting an enemy live allows them to come back and try it again.
Where does that leave us? It leaves us with women more dangerous than men in a fight-or-flight situation.
If you don't believe me, go down to your local club and ask the bouncers there. They'll tell you that in fights, guys tend not to use sharp objects unprovoked, and will cooperate once they know they're beat. The women, though, fight tooth, nail, and spike heel throughout, and even try to get back in to continue the fight with the bouncers.
I've also heard similar tales from border patrol agents. When caught smuggling something, male suspects are more willing to cooperate when they learn they've been caught red-handed, while the women tend to fight on (sometimes literally) until the bitter end.
This doesn't mean that women would make lousy presidents (dealing with crises is only part of the job description, and sometimes "to the death" is more desirable than appeasement), just that women can't solve all the world's problems.
This assumes that the pilot was willing to risk a rather expensive airplane (in terms of both money and intelligence) when 23 other people are watching and can (and probably will in all the required paperwork) report to their boss. Driving aggressively is OK as long as it's not your dad's $200,000 Porche. Otherwise, you're in the right lane, hands at 9 and 3, going about 5 under the limit.
"I have heard no mention of the acceptability of the spying mission. "
The plane was using purely passive detectors, picking up photons that were headed their way, anyway. This is 100% legal to do even within the U. S. Why do you think the smart drug dealers have sworn off cell phones?
"with an economy 5 times larger than that of the USA by the year 2020. "
That's an awful lot of zeroes there. China's economy is mainly focused on manufacturing ("goods," if you will). If the rest of the world doesn't keep pace to be able to buy Chinese-manufactured goods, then there's no way China can reach such a huge number.
Also, you may be underestimating the gap between the U. S. and the rest of the world. We don't just have the highest gross domestic product in the world, but runners up like Japan and the UK are on-par only with some of the larger states like CA and TX. Most of the rest of the world are lucky if they can keep up with poorer states like WV and MS.
"All it takes is a blip for america to spiral into recession whil China steams ahead."
You're not giving US resiliency and economic strength enough credit. Within a decade or two of the end of the American Revolution, we had the largest merchant fleet in the world. At the end of our Civil War, we had the most powerful army on the globe (but quickly dismantled it). In the midst of the Great Depression, the US was able to help win a war of attrition on two fronts, even after starting late int he game. Even after the end of the Cold War, our economy allows us the luxury of keeping military that can fight a war on two fronts, of maintaining our nuclear arsenal, AND send people into space to boot.
You're also forgetting how much the rest of the world depends on the US economy. The NYSE crashes in 1929, and the whole world has to swallow it. New York has been the main economic center of the world for at least a century. A catostrophic decline like you're speaking of would mean a second Great Depression for the world.
If anything, we'll have a slow and graceful decline/leveling off like the UK has had.
"Many in the world will be wary of this new power, but it is well known that China is a much more outward looking nation that america historically speaking, and far less insular. "
You say this of the "Middle Kingdom," self-declared center of the world? Watch the news sometime, when diplomats on either side are talking. If there's a map of the world behind them, study it. You'll note that the maps shown on the US side set the edges of the map at 180 degrees longitude, putting Europe and Africa right in the middle. In China, on the other hand, they take liberties with it to make sure that China is right in the middle. Highlighted, even.
"It also does not have territorial ambitions, beyond claiming back its old lands, like Taiwan."
I didn't realize that Nepal, the Spratleys, Vietnam, Kashmir, the Russian Far East, etc. were traditionally Chinese.
In comparison, the US has been letting go of land for the past half-century or so. The Panama Canal. The Philippines. Numerous Pacific islands. We've given Puerto Rico the opportunity to leave numerous times with open and fair elections.
"The chinese do not send spyplanes over America",
The Chinese have no access to a Japan-equivalent. Look at where the P-3 was flying out of. I'm quite sure they keep an eye on the various US bases in the area, though, and I doubt the People's Army-Navy wanted access to port facilities in Long Beach just for the convenient location.
And, finally, there's the question of the Chinese military's ability to be a super power. Current analysis shows Taiwan having a military on-par if not stronger than the mainland's (minus the nuclear weapons bit, of course).
I've read a few reports that suggest that China's culture keep it from truly becoming a world power as well. (This was on a private mailing list, so I can't give you a link, but I can cut-and-paste if there are requests). I'll sum up:
First off, the civillian government doesn't trust its military (which may or may not be justified). Because of this, they promote officers on basis of loyalty instead of skill. Reading Chairman Mao's works is more important than reading Sun Tzu's.
Secondly, the Party and other cultural factors provide China with a comparatively rigid class structure. While this may not seem important, here's the analogy that was used:
Even more damning is the way that the lower classes are short-changed come budget time. The Egyptian pilot may be up to US standards (perhaps even trained by the US), but the ground crew sure wouldn't.(I'm not saying that the US has no classes, just that the upper classes are much more prone to listen to sound advice from the lower classes).
"I for one welcome our new leaders to be."
Looking at their past history, if that were to come true, I'd be much more likely to exersize my 2nd Ammendment rights.
"People's Republic established 1 October 1949"
to
"Constitution: 17 September 1787, effective 4 March 1789"
Of course, if age of the borders is more important than the age of the government, then Japan has 'em beat by 440 years or so, and Ethiopia is so damned old nobody knows.
So we should just nuke Los Angeles and Hong Kong and call it a day? Riiiiight...
"It used to be that countries would declare war on each other because of petty rivalries between dukes and princes. Now, it sometimes takes an act of god to get them to go at it."
It also used to require an act of God to wipe a city off the map in one fell swoop. We have the ability to turn China into the world's largest self-lighting parking lot in about an hour or so. China might not be able to answer in kind, they can at least nail Alaska, Hawaii, and parts of the west coast.
"We're spending billions of dollars (a big chunk of our GDP) on national defense. And we never even use it! "
They're used all the time. They're used to make people afraid of pissing us off. Sadam Hussien/Osama bin Laden would have gassed/plagued/nuked a US city by now if Iraq/Afghanistan wasn't just a little worried about becoming the next Carthage.
"Is it because we can't anymore? Bullshit. It's because we're afraid to. It's because we've let ourselves get castrated by the liberal media and their doomsday predictions about what might happen if one nation accidentally steps on the toes of the other. "
Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty conservative, and I'm a big fan of the US nuclear arsenal, but you really don't want a war. Getting into a war with a nuclear power (even if they don't have decent rocket technology) will mean the death of an appreciable percentage of the US civillian population, as well as all sorts economic problems for us and the rest of the world. Consider the fall-out (figuratively speaking) if the Chinese DID nule LA. There goes one of our really big cities, one of our really big ports, and a whole mess of vaporized people who have relatives who vote.
"Can you imagine FDR or Eisenhower letting the Chinese hold our American soldiers hostage like this?"
Gary Powers wasn't only held, but he was even tried by the Soviets.
FDR couldn't do a damnded thing until the Japanese were kind enough to convince Congress and his constituants that something needs to be done.
Even Lincoln let the Confederates get the first shot.
The US is a nation of pacifists. Deal with it. Why do you think we have a civilian government in charge of the military and not vice-versa?
"We must settle for no less than outright war. They think they have the upper hand now, but wait until we give it to them old-fashioned American style. "
As far as I know, "old-fashioned American style" has yet to go up against the ol' Chinese human wave tactic. Except in Korea. And that damned near cost us the penninsula.
"They probably don't even have all those nukes they keep whispering about. Have we ever seen them detonate one? Well have we? NO! They don't exist. "
You've never watched "Trinity and Beyond," have you?
"Once open war is declared, our economy will boom. "
According to witnesses in Hirshima and Nagasaki, there was no real "boom" to be heard. Shockwave travelling faster than sound and all that...
This is appearantly true for all the countries they have listed. The People's Daily entry on Japan is copied from the CIA's version.
The REAL clincher, though, is the entry for Taiwan. The People's Republic consider Taiwan to actually be a province of their country, but if you compare the entry in the People's Daily here, and compare the "Location" and "Climate" entries to the same entries in the World Factbook's version, you'll notice that they were practically cut-and-pasted. At least they didn't use the CIA's map...
It's nice to know that American tax dollars are being spent on China's intelligence-gathering efforts. :)
We did bomb their embassy. So I guess we are good at killing people by mistake.
Sail boats have the right of way over powered craft, even if the sail boat is smaller.
It's a matter of maneuverability. Sail boats are harder to steer than a motorboat, big cargo ships are harder to steer than small pleasure craft.
I don't think any really simple rule about size or propulsion applies 100% of the time; I doubt an oil supertanker gives way to a 4-man sailing boat.
--
I'm not familiar with Chinese military practices, but it isn't unusual for a country to intercept and identify unknown aircraft outside the 12 mile limit. The intercepting aircraft has just as much of a right to fly in international airspace as the unknown aircraft. If you look at US aeronautical maps, you will see large areas off the coast marked ADIZ, for Air Defence Intercept Zone. If you enter the zone without a flight plan and active transponder, don't be surprised if a fighter is scrambled to check you out.
Honey, it's obvious that if the solicitor is female, she's not a girl--she's a woman. Yeah, and I suppose you think most engineers/mathematician/compscis are male, right?
...on the situation?
http://www.americanpolicy.org/more/main.htm
The April 16, 2001 article.
What's the point flapping mouths when propaganda blurs every fact of this situtation? No matter what Jon thinks he knows, or how many people he's asked for comments, he doesn't know any more about this than what few average newspapers can tell.
Who cares? Who can care without knowing what really happened? We all believe our "trusted sources" and try to convince each other here. Even truth does not matter because there isn't one, China makes it's own truth as does US and public opinions are allways biased. So that's that, then. Nothing to see here, move along.
Preserve old classics: copy your collection onto all hard drives.
Agree with most of your post, but Ive got to pull you up on your point of North Vietnam.
From a military prespective, the US (and various allies) never lost a battle against the North Vietnamese army or their Vietcong allies, in fact in every major battle the US humiliated the enemies facing them through superior equipment, training and manoevribility.
The two main reasons most Americans see Vietnam as a loss are:
1. Lots of US soldiers got killed - true, but somewhere in the order of 1,000,000 N. Vietnamese soldiers were killed.
2. South Vietnam fell. Only after the US army left though. At this point N. Vietnam couldnt fight anymore and the US thought it safe to leave. However a year or two later the Israeli-Arab war of '72 started up and almost all the weapons and vehicles promised to S. Vietnam went to Isreal. Also the soviets had launched a major effort to re-equip N. Vietnam. This left S. Vietnam wide open for invasion.
Its sad that so few americans (Im from the UK) actually spend some time learning the full history of the vietnam conflict.
Sharlin
"My understanding of the Vietnam conflict is that it was mostly a series of guerilla encounters, and on the whole we mostly wore each other down much as the armies did in the trenches of WWI. There were exceptions like the Tet offensive, but on the whole I picture it as mainly being skirmishes in the jungle rather than armies & tanks & what have you."
A common fallacy is the belief that the Vietnam war was a series of skirmishes. Most of the battles in vietnam where fought against the N. Vietnamese who where (in all senses) a conventional army. These mainly consisted of infantry battles (with an almost 100% victory rate to the US and its allies) although their were a few noted armour battles (although the antiquity of the N. Vietnamese tanks meant that these battles where usually very short and one sided).
Guerilla battles were performed by the Vietcong (S. Vietnamese equipped by the N. Vietnamese), who had a very low rate of success. In one engagement 1000 vietcong guerillas where beaten off by 100 Australian troops in thick jungle terrain. In general, the superior equipment and training of the US (and allies) meant that even jungle experience wasnt a great advantage.
Also you mentioned the Tet Offensive. This was the one time the Vietcong openly attacked towns and cities. It failed amazingly. Most people seem to think that it was a Vietcong victory because of the embassy assault, well this was the high point of the offensive. In general the attacks were un-coordinated and lacking in planning. The resulting slaughter of the Vietcong meant that they never were able to operate correctly again.
Sharlin
Yeah, not to mention the US needs a cultural revolution, except that we've got nothing ancient to throw out. Viva la China!
If you fall off a building, go real limp, because maybe you'll look like a dummy and people will be like hey, free dummy
Well If I was the pilot of the spy plane... I'd head out AWAY from China, bale, and let the plane ditch in the sea. Then rely on the US to come rescue them (better chance than in china). This solves all the problems, no hostages, no plane falling into china's hands.
And if I'm not much mistaken, spying is a capital offence... Definity in war time it is an executable offence..
nuff said
I think we're missing a huge opportunity here. Why spend billions on F14s and high-tech fighters. Let's just outfit our armed forces with outdated prop-planes. We can save a fortune.
the surviving Chinese pilot said that the US plane "suddenly swerved at a wide angle..."
./ers think???
WHAT? Doesn't anybody else see the blatent contradiction in that statement?
I lived in europe for a while, and it was very interersting to see issues like this from another perspective. While I strongly agree that the US has nothing to apoligize for (if anything, the Chinese should apologize to us...), what do some of you non-US
"The defense of freedom requires the advance of freedom" - George W Bush
the bombing of chinese embassy during Kosovo war 2 years ago had negative effect on this insident. you can't compare this one to the incidents during cold war.
Good for them. I'm glad to know that when our guys are acting like jackasses they at least are careful enough not to hit someone else.
Except, of course, when they're not...
To me it's incredibly obvious as to why the Chinese are stalling and postponing the return of the U.S. pilots. It would make sense to me that while the pilots are in Chinese custody the primary concern of the USA is the safe return of our crew. This means that for the duration of the time the crew is detained, the USA's focus is on them, not the spy plane. The longer the Chinese hold our men and women, the longer the Chinese have to inspect the plane and find out what makes it tick. When we "accidently" blew up the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia, there wasn't nearly as much dialogue and standoff between the two nations. This was because the USA immediately apologized and without hesitation started to pay the Chinese reparations. Now in a situation where it is unclear who is at fault, the Chinese are addament about the USA doing the one thing the Chinese know we won't do, say "we're sorry". It's my humble opinion that the Chinese will give back our crew members without question when they are done tearing apart our plane. Until then, the Chinese will hold our crew and keep our diplomats in limbo while our nations secrets are disseminated throughout China.
I posted to
These a/c carry heavy duty radar. All they have to do it lock the parabolic on the slickiee boy in the cockpit. Dial in a little up or down angle and run the magneton up to max power. These are your basic flying microwave ovens. He won't know why his insides are getting warm until its far too late. Well maybe some diplodipshit has said no-no to any attempts at self protection by our guys. What good are all these tweeddicks for except to sponge up free eats , talk for days about bullshit and think they are saving the world. That bilge rat Kissassinger was a good example of a big waste. He spent more time on the talk shows than bent dick did and nobody could ever understand a word he said.
&subject, when US bombed their embassy, their goverment.
you actually belive the Chinese population would lynch their leaders? It seems as if you are trying to transfer attributes of American society to Chinese society. Remember, they have no free press over there, the government controls all the media and can spin anything the way they want.
Tell this joke to Mongolia or Eastern part of Russia. Russia (then Soviet Union) even had a full-scale territorial war back in 1970's with China.
You don't think that the Chinese have spies in the United States? Where do you think they got the information to become the "nuclear power" they are today? It is naive to assume that the "evil" United States are the only deceptive nation in the world. Who knows? Maybe they knocked our spy plane down to start their own spy plane program.
All the US has to say is I'm sorry and this whole thing would be over....
The following is an excerpt from Xinhua
Context is important here... Ignoring the 'inconvenient' words as the author of this story did, it looks an awful lot like the US is admitting that they're at fault, but look at the whole transcript and note that rather important portions were omitted:
Taken on the whole, it makes quite a bit more sense and, from all that I've heard (admittedly from the confines of Indiana), it sure does sound like the fighter pilot was at fault:
Some witling, like a modern-day Icarus, hot-dogged and flew too close to something bigger than he, plummeting to his death. This is Darwin at work, folks. On the bright side, he's out of the gene pool... The US should apologize for this? I think not! Wood has a higher capacity for conscious thought than the semi-evolved simian doltish Chinese hardline imbeciles who seemingly clutch on to this dick-waving fest the way a shipwreck victim might clutch on to flotsam. This is rock stupid. Dehydrated rock stupid. This is granite-like stupidity to the ninth degree. Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know and love into a whole different dimension of stupid. It is stupid collapsed in on itself so far that even the neutrons of stupidity have collapsed. Stupid so dense that no intellect can escape. It is a blazing mid-day sun on the Mercury of stupidity. It emits more stupid in one second than the entire universe emits in a year. This truly is some primordial fragment from the original big-bang of stupid. It's the pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to go beyond the laws of physics that we know. Stupid beyond humanity's capacity to love and be loved. If I had a dime for every rung on the ladder of stupid that this stupidity climbed, I'd be rich. It's just another dog peeing on the fire hydrant of stupid...
But I digress...
Well, aside from the fact that the Chinese are helping themselves to a lot of our best hardware...there's always this:
Immediate Action
This is intended for humor purposes only, I certainly don't encourage hollow point diplomacy.
~HK
Alright, I by far, do not claim to be a cultural advisor, nor a expert in military strategy or foreign policy for starters. I am just your average working, tax paying, tax paying, tax paying american. Just to start with, this game has gone on for centuries. It is nothing new, it is nothing odd, it is nothing more than your normal everyday sibling squabble that you may see between children. The only difference here is it is on a scale far greater than the petty toy two children might fight over. Or is it? Look, we were spying, (granted ) that is what we do, that is what they do, that is what the world does. Good thing too, if you ask me. It keeps technologies growing, and in check. Think about it. Anyway, what do we really have. Let's look at the facts. We have a E3 that is injured during flight, in international waters by a F8 Chinese fighter jet. Who's fault is that? ( at this point does that really matter?) The E3 personal onboard the plane have very strict guidelines to follow during an emergency. You can bet your military ass on that one. Now, this is where I do not claim to be a military expert, but just knowing the military, Grandfather, Uncle, Father, Working in a Federal Armory. I know for a fact that everything is going to be BY THE BOOK tactics during this kind of ( pre planned and trained and studied ) military emergency that the crew of the E3 faced. As far as the exact (procedure) who knows. But, I can pretty much guess what it would be like. Let's try to think this out.....in a general type of guesstimated way. 1) Send a distress call (both ) encrypted and all distress local channels ( still in guess mode here ) 2) (pilots: engage OMG mode and calculate and asses damage to the plane. I.E.. what have we lost, what is working, what is heading, what is height and altitude, what is speed, where are we, and what is the closest SAFEST possible way to get out of this alive. That was a guess on what the pilots might be doing... now for the other crew in the front, middle and aft sections. (guessing starts here ) 1) aid in possible resolutions and calculations for for emergency landing (again procedures) 2) Start all data automated and manual data shredding (procedures). This may or may not include flash fire devices that destroy hardware also. (Still guessing ) re-cover the first 25 steps again for the next 10 minutes. Confirm via communications that procedures have been complied with and start logging local transmissions and and instrument readings as the plane heads towards the final destination. All of that is just a simple sit down and look at what one might do during a emergency and then put a military setting and standard to it. Not really hard to do if you ask me. As far as accuracy I know that I am off to a point, but I have to close to the general idea. Okay, so we covered what the crew of the E3 might do. How about the F8 fighter pilot before and after the crash. Again not an expert by any means. but let's try to think this out. 1) Hmmm we have spotted a E3 spy plane in international waters right by our coast. Let's let them know we are on to them, ( like our instrumentation onboard the plane did not detect everything anyway ) and show them that we are ALMIGHTY AND POWERFUL AND NOT AFRAID OF (BIG BAD AMERICAN). Yes, that was drama. Anywho, anyone that knows a fighter pilot will tell you two main things. Cocky as HELL, and Smart. Very very very dangerous combination when not controlled. I mean really, we pride our american pilots for flying upside down and pulling ungodly G's every time we goto an air show don't we. We the people get the thrill of seeing precise control and maneuvers to WOW the crowd. Do you really think there is any difference with that attitude whether it be, (for fun) or (for home and country) think about it. Okay, back to the guesstimation. We have our pilot, let give him a name here ( Wong Wey ) and he is advised to give the (BIG BAD AMERICANS) a little hello present. So, as any trained (cocky & smart ) pilot would do he cruises up to meeting altitude and trails the plane for a bit. Ahhh, no is time to show (BIG BAD AMERICANS) what military Chinese pilot can do. So, burners on the jet light up. He closes in, in what I would think a attack posture and buzz the plane a few times then show the skill and disappear from visual site only to be right under them. Herm..... this kinda sounds about right doesn't it? Scary, okay so now for the final wonderful ( I'LL SHOW YOU TACTIC ) cut the damn plane off as close as humanly possible to scare the living crap out of them and I am sure the hopes of a nice little tail wash was in there too. At this point attitude took over and control of both (plane and pilot) no longer linked and ( BAM ) wing strikes the E3.......Now... we have problems..... I am sure Wong Wey was going at very very high speeds to pull off this talented uncontrolled stunt. What does this mean.... well have you ever seen a plane with only one damaged wing. It twirls like a top in all kinds of directions... instruments are useless.....gimble just goes nuts.....what's up.....what's down....where am I.....how fast am I going... ground....air.....water.....sky......water.....gro und....air....all while
pulling tremendous body wrenching G's. Personaly...I am not suprised Wong Wey ended up the drink.
Okay.... that was long winded, but does it not give you a idea of possibility what might have really happened. Now, let's talk about what we have here today.
Here we have the Chinese, not that I am a cultural expert by far, but again they have a rich, very old, long lasting , deep rooted culture. Look at who they are...very very very
morally conscious. Here is a little tid bit I heard once. Let's just say it was icy out in china and a man fell. The response you would expect would be
( GOD(*#*@$ $@(*#(@%)*@(#&$) isn't it. Not in china.....that just happened for a reason.....you may not know it now....but you better stand up...bow and say domo ore gotto.
--- I know that is not right :). But it means thank you. Herm..... now that is very weird to us, the bad americans. Why in the holy hell would a man fall on ice, get up and bow,
and say thank you. Well... you talking thousands of years of moral training. Yes, thousands....america.....now just hold on.....we have been america for how long.....home of the
free.....outspoken......we do what we damn well want to do....we carry guns....we kick peoples asses for being stupid....come on. Talk about a serious clash.
Anyway...China has 24 of our american crewmen and women. China has one of the most upscale, high tech spy planes in the world on there airport runway. China has (TIME) and
a nice little (bargaining chip). Now, we hit politics.....admitted China does not like the West...why, that is pretty much gone over above....in a odd kind of way I admit. Not to
mention the fact that America has all the damn goodies and money. So, let's think in thousand year terms and bargaining chip and lack of technology they can not afford to copy
yet.
Herm....for one... WEST really needs to stand up and say domo ore gotto --I know, cause they fell down. Two...herm....we have crown jewel of the WEST sitting right here in
our parking lot. Three... we have 24 people that know what that plane does...and they come from the WEST. Now, my thought being them would be ...uh..... stall stall stall stall
stall stall stall. Dismantle any useable parts.....get the crew to tell us how this shit works..... copy anything that is left over....... stall stall stall stall........pretend no no no this is
about saying thank you for falling down..stall stall stall.....damn it crew tell us how this works.
Last, but not least we have american politics...man if this is not a screwed up mess and a half to try to explain, but I will try. Still guestimation mode here. AHHHHHH shit, they
got our damn plane.....CRAAAAP and they have our people. Well, plane is pretty much screwed up....and taken care of. People are alive and well....and we want them back. But,
there is no DAMN WAY in hell I am going to say I am sorry or thank you for falling on my ass cause that is just not heard of, and really...you guys annoy the hell out of us. Heh,
that was a very loose interpretation of all that. Cause god only knows the quote (Bullshit) that the officials are pulling under your nose.
Media....now really people...do you think you are going to get an answer from them.....are you really that daft to think they are going to report the whole truth. Have we learned
absolutely nothing from the Clinton era?????? Media is in it for the money...the best story wins....I don't care how you get it....I don't care what little white lies are spred....I don't
care what cover-ups need to be done to save our asses...but I want A GOD (#*$# PRIZE WINNING, MONEY MAKING, RATING BOOSTING,
MOTHER #(@)*#$@ STORY. I WANT HEADLINES NOWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!.
Herm....in conclusion I think ..... I would like to see something like this.
1) Bend over and bow and say.....domo ore gotto...thank you.....sorry what the hell ever. Like that is really going to harm anyone (ego play ) (child's play)
2) Get our boys and gals home... the longer they stay the more the families suffer...the more they learn.
3) Hold back for a week or so and just ream them where it hurts the most... ( THE POCKET BOOK ).
4) Halt certain trades...open new trades with other countries that can produce..what we are looking for.... we have a whole world out there.
I think that is the best way to get stuff done....man you take money away China , that is really going to be hurting.them in the long run no doubt...specialy if we open other trades
with other countries for the same things. On the same note, just for thought...do you really really think that, that E3 is all we got.....Do your really think we have nothing out there
that puts that plane to total shame in eqpt that can spy and gather intelligence.? Do you really think... your getting the whole truth and nothing but the truth. ????
Night folks.
If the American plane hadn't flown near China, then China's jet wouldn't have crashed.
Well, first of all I doubt an American pilot would be that incompetent. The American pilot would have shadowed the plane, approaching from the left side, just like we worked out with the Soviets. If it came down in distress, the crew would have been free to go when they wished to do so, and the US authorities wouldn't have taken the plane apart.
Whoa!!!! Sure American's might make an attempt to clean up some of their messes, but other countries certainly do as well (for example China) and many do a better job than the US. Sorry, but I've been to China. They aren't rich enough to even think of being green. Poor countries are invariably dirty countries. The US does the worst job of any country in cleaning up after itself in terms of greenhouse gas emissions (either per capita, or in total emmissions). First of all, the global warming thing is not based on a lot of sound science, it is based upon people that want the industrial revolution shut down. Secondly, if the US were really contributing to the buildup of C02 in the air, then there would be a noticeable jump in the CO2 concentration off of our east coast compared to our west coast. Guess what? It isn't there. Yes, the US pumps a lot of CO2 into the air. But we also take almost all of it OUT of the air. We do that by growing wheat and by growing trees that we then use for paper before burying. (If you want to test someone for a rational response to the alleged global warming scenario, ask about nuclear power and paper recyling. Someone who supports nuclear power and opposes paper recycling is at least being consistent when they say they are really concerned about global warming.) So why didn't the Europeans want to give us credit for our carbon sinks? Because they had two objectives: 1) play to local green religion and 2) slow down a US they can't compete with. Bush isn't playing, and that is a GOOD thing. So don't be so hard on Australia. Indeed, all you have to do is burn really high sulphur coal for your electric power on your east coast and create a smog cloud over the southern pacific to help us all with "global warming". Think of it as giving the world a sunscreen. (I got that idea from a Nobel winning Physicist.) Peace
Communism has probably killed about 100 million people in the 20th century (see Black Book of Communism), half in China. Between the boat people out of Vietnam and the killing fields in Cambodia I'm surprised you made this comment. Haven't you noticed that such countries build walls to keep people IN while the US builds walls to keep people OUT? The US was certainly justified morally in trying to prevent the spread of communism to South Vietnam. The only problem is that we didn't do a good job of it.
That you drop two a-bombs instead of one? It apparently took two. And even then, the Japanese military didn't want to surrender. The surrender announcemnt had to be smuggled out of the imperial palace. After Pearl Harbor and the Bataan death march, they are lucky we only dropped two. (Then again, we were starting to have trouble coming up with targets.) I'm sure the Chinese in Nanking would have preferred we drop a few more. Actually, most of us are trying to get them [Madonna and McDonald's] out. But if that were really true, they wouldn't BE there. At least I've never heard of a marine threatening to shoot someone who didn't order a big mac.The US plane is just a big radio reciever, flying in international airspace. We have a right to fly that route and listen to the airwaves. The US did nothing wrong. Incidentally, the chinese fly these missions too. They just aren't as good at it.
I'm sorry you have no understanding of logic: he flew by close before, so he did this time? I'm sorry you are so disingenuous. He obviously flew close this time. In fact, he hit our plane. I'm sorry that you don't understand the concept of a soverign nation, and that China doesn't have to do what the U.S. says. Which wasn't the point. The point was that China was engaging in reckless endangerment of flights in international airspace. The point was that the Chinese had ample warning that such an accident was just waiting to happen. I'm sorry that you're idiotic enough to believe that U.S. planes are soverign territories. Let's see some examples from previous times. A military ship or airplane is considered soverign territory, like an embassy. You appear to be the one with no appreciation for the normal behavior between nations. I'm sorry that you've decided to bring up unrelated past deeds to justify your position. Which wasn't the point of the comment, of course. The american flight needs no justification. This point was just to show how brutal the Chinese regime is and has been. The Cultural revolution was something the Chinese did to their own people, and has no parallel in the US. None of that excuses brutality in the american indian wars, or the sickening internment issue. By the way: the people put in American Camps tended to survive the experience, something that didn't happen as often in Nazi or Chinese camps. I'm sorry that the U.S. population persecutes atheists, Satanists, Wiccans, and pretty much anything not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Persecute atheists, you must be joking. And I really don't recall any 'wiccans' being sent to jail for being Wiccans. You are stretching mightily. And of course, Tibet was an independent country and Taiwan has been ruled by China for about 5 years of the last 100. So that doesn't quite match the situation in the US civil war, does it? Oh, as a bonus: I'm sorry that the U.S. regularly imprisonates numerous non-violent drug offenders. Do you have any evidence that such drug offenders are treated more gently in China? Please note my sincere regret at your _sad_ debating abilities, and I humbly await your gracious forgiveness I have do not know why you consider the US your bete noire. But you lack the persipicacity you claim, and have offered only ersatz erudition. An epigone, in other words. In plainer language, you seem to have delusions of adequacy regarding your facility with logic. Peace
They were collecting intelligence by flying in international airspace with their radio on and the tape recorder running. You might have a point if they were over chinese airspace, but they were not.
War is sweet for those who haven't experienced it. While Chinese actions are an act of war, I'm not ready to nuke Beijing over it. I do note, however, that the hill I live on should form a blast shadow for me if they hit Seattle. On the other hand, China should be made to pay a very, very, large price for this action. I think that is where this is headed.
Why are you being so childish?
Do you have ANY clue what you write about? The P-3 is the air equivalent of the big yellow school bus. It's slow, noisy, and well-known among naval pilots for making unseasoned crew members lose their lunch. The MIG that you seem to think was the innocent victim is more like a Mustang. Small, fast, not that sturdy and much more maneuverable. You're basically suggesting that if a school bus is driving around in a deserted parking lot and two mustangs are circling it, trying to touch bumpers, that it's the school bus at fault when one of the Mustangs ends up as a Car-B-QUE.
You have virtually no experience with the Navy's air programs, no experience with international politics and therefore NO right to suggest you have any idea whatsoever who is at fault.
Asshole. Go thump the Geek Pride bible a bit more. At least you're marginally good at that.
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Just lurking, thanks!
Additionally, it should be conisdered that China has previously used the military strategy of "we have more people than you have bullets", it's a dangerous idea to even hint at accepting responsibility for an incident that wasn't the US's fault. Not to be cynical, but I don't imagine that Beijing would have any great issue with making it procedure to ram every P3 that flew by their coast.
It's a horrible game, and everybody loses. Unfortunately, once somebody starts playing it, there's no obvious way to stop.
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"Don't trolls get tired?"
CHINA IS AN OPEN EMAIL RELAY, WAITING FOR SPAMMERS TO RAPE IT REPEATEDLY
Go to Google's Groups (the old Deja news archive) and check out news.admin.net-abuse.email and news.admin.net-abuse.sightings. Look for China, and it's domain ".cn". Look at all the spam being bounced from it. Look at all the attempts to clue in China. Sysadmins and spam fighters have to imitate "freeing Taiwan" messages "erronously sent" to China's government just to shut them down or secure them.
With the continued cluelessness of China, a wall is being built, brick by brick, system by system, blocking any email comming from China. Eventually, a majority of it will be filled by the MAPS RSS and RBL -- filled in concrete. When it is complete, it will be the Greatest Virtual Wall of China ever completed.
Why should we apologize to China for it's lack of security as they "blunder" into the technological age? We want to help, but they continue to loose face over the Internet for being ignorant.
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WolfSkunks for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.keenspace.com";
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
The political system which you advocate had no difficulty in engaging in the most vicious slaughter of the 90s. Occidental culture still has not forgotten the profound insult of this purge, which was by no means limited to Tienamen, and caused a mass import of troops from outside regions because many in the Chinese army refused to fire upon thier own.
In the final analysis, totalitarianism is not a workable form of government, which has been proved in many nations other than China, and which will be proved in China in due course. It is hoped that China will make gradual alterations to their government as economic prosperity deepens, but this is by no means the only avenue of change.
The Chinese decided, for whatever reason, that they wanted this particular plane. Perhaps it observed something that it was not meant to see, and perhaps it was taken simply to demonstrate resolve. In any case, it was taken illegally, and it stresses China's qualities as a rogue nation, inobservant of the rule of law.
I believe that the Bush administration should offer any appology that might cause the release of the hostages; I do not feel that the situation is being handled appropriately. These are Americans and members of the US, and I do not feel that Bush is doing enough to safeguard his own.
To the Chinese, who will not tolerate our "spy" missions, I say return all copies of the plans to the W88 nuclear device which you stole from the US. Your claims that you are the innocent victim of espionage fall upon the deaf ears of the world.
We didn't capture any Russian ships or airplanes in the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Russian Missiles were there in Cuba to offset American Missiles in Turkey. The Russian UN and US Ambassitors were asked privately and publicly if there were missiles in Cuba and they said no.
Then it became a poltical game.
Go see Thirteen Days and you might understand better.
The deal is, the evil globalist conspiracy has been plotting for a way to get the US and China to war for decades now. Starting with Korea. When the US and China war, the outcome will be a much lower population (more elbow room to grow), and a strengthened economy (big corps selling lots of bombs).
The efforts have been stepped up in recent years with the Taiwan flap, missiles, National Missile Defense, Missile and Nuclear Weapons technology falling into Chinese hands (war won't do anyone any good if lots and lots of people aren't killed, we proved that with Iraq, we were so overwhelmingly superior, that we couldn't get a clean moral judgement out of a full-on victory, so we have this BS political stalemate. - so China has to have their technological force built up so they are a more even match for the US, to justify the US really thoroughly pounding the commies. this is the final battle, communism's last stand. After this, there will be nothing to stand in the way of global corporatism taking over the entire earth.
The spy plane flap is NOT about the pilots, or about whose fault it is. It's about the Chinese dragging this out long enough to get as many secrets out of that plane as possible.
If you believe that it's at all about figuring whose fault it is and getting an apology, then riddle me this;
why the fuck hasn't anyone looked at the flight recorders from BOTH planes, and figured out exactly who veered into whom?
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I've also read speculation that the E3 contained a "magnetic pulse" weapon, which may have been used to "discourage interception" by enemy fighters, and might have been a little TOO effective.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
The US owned plane involved in this collision was a spy plane. At the time of the collision, it was at best a military vehicle trespassing in foriegn airspace. Likely, it was invading the privacy of the chinese citizens it was spying on. Had this incident occured over international waters, one could argue that the usual rule of "larger vessels have the right of way" applied and that the operator of the smaller jet operated improperly. Such an argument doesn't apply here because the larger jet should not have been present at all.
If the United States were allowed to place the blame for this crash with China, it would be just like a peeping tom blaming a bad fall on unsafe tree conditions in the yard of the person whom they were peering in on. We don't allow such an argument in civilian space, and we certainly shouldn't allow it in military space. Sure, it is prudent to keep dead branches pruned, but the weak branches would not be an issue if a trespasser were not illegally climbing the tree to perform an illegal invasion of privacy in the first place.
That's interesting that you say "poor showing in the debates", because the Media was painting it as if Bush had won the debates clearly.
Honestly, I was not a big proponent of Gore at first. But I had an opportunity to see how he handled himself while on campus at Microsoft after the April court decision. It was televised on C-Span, and I was amazed at just how well he handled such a delicate and tough situation.
He would have been a far better choice than President-by-default that we have today.
But ohwell.
As far as Corruption in the Clinton administration. This is difficult to say. The majority of all charges that had been thrown up against Clinton failed to stick because they were untrue. But that didn't stop Republicans from continuing to throw charges.
Personally I think there was an ulterior motive, not so much to take down Clinton but as to wipe out the long image of Corruption which had charecterized the Reagan/Bush administration of the past.
As much as one might dislike Clinton for being self-absorbed and corrupt, the Reagan/Bush administrations were far far worse and blatantly public about it.
We even see that today with the new Bush administration, he's rolled over on many issues solely based on who funded his campaign.
Ahh, more Republican lies.
The newspaper looked at the votes, and if they had been counted the way the Republicans wanted them to be, Gore won by 1 vote.
Unfortunately there is a lot more to the story than that.
That's what distinguishes the men from the Canadians.
I think us canadians don't need your type of men.
Besides, we have Jean Chrétien. No diplomat would ever want to face off our premier's wife with her deadly frying pan.
Karma karma karma karma karmeleon: it comes and goes, it comes and goes.
We're spending billions of dollars (a big chunk of our GDP) on national defense. And we never even use it!
:)
We did use it. The Strategic Defense Inititative (SDI aka Star Wars) finished off the USSR. Their military tried to match it, and spent itself into oblivion. Plus, SDI helped me get through college as well (defense jobs)
So now we've got China to deal with. Funny how we're talking about missile defense again. It worked once....
I'm sorry that a Chinese fighter pilot was outmaneuvered by an American autopilot.
I'm sorry that Taiwan feels so threatened by SEVERAL HUNDRED CHINESE BALLISTIC MISSILES POINTED AT THEM that they want to buy a few Aegis cruisers so they'll have half a prayer of defending themselves. (Time for a variant of the "zero option" that Reagan proposed to the former Soviet Union?)
I'm sorry that China took a wrong left turn last century after America helped bail them out of Imperial Japanese occupation (Flying Tigers volunteers, etc).
I'm sorry that the ICBM technology the Chinese Communist Party bought/stole from America will be rendered largely irrelevant by the antiballistic missile systems we're going to build now that there's a Republican in the White House.
I'm sorry that the Chinese Communist Party lost their investment in the American Democratic Party.
I'm sorry that most of the smart Chinese have hauled ass out of mainland China, or there might be someone left to tell the Chinese government and military how F------ STUPID they look to the rest of the world. "Don't shoot the messenger" really is good advice. And don't send them to labor camps, either.
(Append "NOT!" as appropriate.)
Like the U.S. would be stupid enough to actually let the Chinese even get that close...
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You gotta get up real early around here if you want to get outta bed... (Groucho Marx)
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
I know it's a joke, but I'm gonna use it make a point.
Look at how WW2 pulled us out of the Depression. And look at how much more expensive modern equipment is. More expenses mean more contribution to our economy and our GDP. That means more funding for the military. It's a positive feedback loop.
I hear this all the time -- it's a little disingenuous. To say that war is good for a country's economy is to not count the opportunity cost of all those men and material killed and destroyed by war. It's not as simple as "war is good for an economy".
"Beware by whom you are called sane."
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Don't get me wrong -- I like idealism, as I'm one myself, only a Libertarian (and libertarian) idealist. I wish I had the answer.
However, the best answer I've ever come up with is "Let people live their lives as they see fit, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else, and don't let a minority of people gain power over the majority". It won't be perfect, nor pain and anguish-free, but it's the best we've been able to come up with thus far.
"Beware by whom you are called sane."
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Sure, McDonalds pushes to get into other countries, but the McDonalds corporation does not go out and force people at gunpoint to line up outside the Moscow Mickie D's.
The Moscovites were so anxious to throw off the loving, benevolent, fair, friend-of-the-earth, hug-a-bear Communist regime that any form of Western culture they could get their hands on was adopted and adored immediately
I've been to a McDonalds in the heart of Italy. It was just as packed as the one in New York City, and Ronald McDonald was not herding kids at gunpoint into the building to buy Happy Meals.
"Beware by whom you are called sane."
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Not everything's a cultural gesture, Jon. In this case, it's an attempt at using a mixture of threats and actual military force to annex some of the most valuable and heavily traveled sea lanes on earth.
--
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
If by "they're nice" you mean "they appreciate and value the US and wish it no ill will", they have two choices: take steps to remove their current government which patently disagrees with them (good luck!), or defect.
Consenting to an illegitimate or malicious government is a far worse crime than establishing one.
Personally, I'm still waiting for the Chinese to apologize for stealing nuclear weapons technologies or interfering illegally with our electoral process by way of massive financial contributions to a particular political party who shall go unnamed.
Dear Mr. Katz, I'm afraid I don't care to spend too much time critiquing your work any more. I used to get all worked up and interested. "Nations operate like software"??? Oversimplification. "They should get on IRC"??? Do you even use IRC? If so, which channel? I'd love to come and flame you. "Identity economy"? What's that? I don't understand you anymore... -nate
Jon,
I think you are forgetting two issues when dealing with China:
1. China by its historic cultural norms tend to be quite xenophobic. After all, the literal translation of the Chinese phrase for their own country means Middle Kingdom--which means they feel they are the center of the world. And their xenophobia has been enforced by the Mongol invasion, the divviing up of China by the European colonial powers, and the Japanese invasion of World War II. That's why they tend to deal with outsiders suspiciously.
2. China's massive government bureaucracy takes a while to respond to almost anything--especially diplomacy. After all, you are talking a government that needs to rule a population six times that of the USA population. Also, I personally think there is much behind-the-scenes infighting between the Chinese military and the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party on how to resolve this mess. Remember, the Chinese want to hold the Summer Olympic Games in 2008, and this incident is NOT going to help things on the international front.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
The problem with the failure oi diplomacy is that people die in extremely unplesant ways.
If you want the US (300M people) and China (+1,000M people) to slug it out, over an apology, may I suggest an orifice you should apply your lips to.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Was the pilot at least offered political asylum? For it's sure that after that stunt, he'd end up in the G.O.U.L.A.G...
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Correction. Mc Donald and Watchamacallit records marketing directors are making their damnest to **SHOVE** Madonna & Mc Donald's down the throats of other countries who normally wouldn't give a shit about that. The rest of americans **ONLY** want to have a good time on Saturday night.
--
If I'm not mistaken, Communism is an European invention. And Mao used Communism to better the life of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of peasants. So what is your point?
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That's because the american media is pro-israeli and is thus able to make public opinion believe that israel is good whilst the arabs are bad. Thus, no anti-israeli politican ever gets elected (they get weeded-out pretty fast) and so, the official US policy is to back israel.
In fact, the arabs are quite stupid in that matter; if they were any intelligent, they'd make peace with the jews, and then, deprived of an ennemy, the jews would kill each other...
--
Words that can only come from a citizen of an imperialist nation. You would not say that if your nation was dominated by another one whose values are quite alien to yours, and forced to follow alien rules.
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And can you blame them, when in the USA, the pityfully small movie and recording industry demands that the much bigger computer industry includes compulsory copy protection in storage devices, to insure that it's wares aren't fairly used???
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They also been around for 20 times longer than the U.S.
How about Dubya's plans to open up Alaska for oil drilling?
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Those 24 people (as well as the one who died) are **SOLDIERS**, who are, by definition **EXPENDABLE**. It's even part of their JOB DESCRIPTION.
And the true face of capitalism wants to send people to jail for copying songs or movies.
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Note to infonaut : Mongolia used to rule China.
--
Watch this:
Wow!
221 years ***BEFORE*** Jesus H. Fucking Christ (yeah, the dude who got nailed 1968 years ago) !
Beats the shit outta 1776!!!!
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I didn't know that the FAA had jurisdiction over International airspace, or over Chinese airspace, for that matter...
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KAL has a long history of having planes straying over soviet airspace. In the late 1970's, a KAL Boeing 707 was shot down over the Soviet-Union and was able to do an emergency landing on a frozen lake. Turns out that it was a gross navigational error where the crew mistook the geographic north pole with the magnetic north pole; the plane turned changed almost 180 near the pole; when they were shot down, they were damn sure they were over Canada...
As for KAL-007 (what a number!), there were american spyplanes in the vicinity when it got shot down.
--
Like, for example, what would happen if Taiwan were to declare their independence? It's no longer outside the realm of possibilities that China could immediately invade Taiwan. The fact that the US has said that we'll defend Taiwan is no longer as big a deterrent as it might have been. And that could mean the lives of US soldiers and sailors, even if not civilians back at home.
That said, the papers you cited are good reading, too, and helps to at least ameliorate any fears of a direct Nuclear confrontation (which I never personally harbored, anyway).
I guess what I'm getting at is that China poses as much a threat now as the Soviet Union used to. That is to say, though they have no intentions of invading us, and they're just as afraid of us as we are of them, they're also convinced that they're right and are willing to fight to the death to protect their interests. I'm just concerned that most of the US isn't sufficiently aware of this, and thinks of China more as a source of cheap electronics and toys than as a true Superpower to be reckoned with.
but I also happen to realize that a simple "I'm sorry" would have our crew home within hours
What makes you say that? They have yet to actually say our hostages will be released if we say "I'm sorry" (which we have) and admit complete guilt for this incident (which we haven't). They still have yet to come out and officially say what conditions have to be met for the crew to return home. They claim to be doing an official investigation and will not return the crew until it is over.
Finkployd
I stand corrected. Appearently a simple apology WAS all they wanted. If they had just said that and stopped this whole "US must bear full responsibility for collision" garbage this could have been over long ago.
Finkployd
I've heard this several times now, and only question it because we hadn't heard anything about it before. You have to remember that we had full radio communication with this plane until after it had landed, and I'm SURE that the pilot would have said something if he had been forced to land. The pilots own words, however, indicated that he chose that airfield because of its proximity, and nothing else.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
Hmmm build DEFENSIVE systems to use in ATTACKING...
I was using the "1984 speak" that we've all adopted.
Didja ever notice that the War department was renamed the defense department?
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
no one was calling China an "enemy" until January 20th,
I disagree. The Chinese leaders have been philosophically opposed to the US for a very long time. They have made every effort to get the upper hand in every way.
You may see this as "the way of the world" but I see it as a country that would very much like to abolish the freedoms that we have in this country.
The Chinese government is as much our enemy as the USSR ever was.
It takes about 5 minutes to target a missile.
My understanding is that the guidance computers in those systems are sufficiently primitive that it requires a substantive effort to reprogram them They are programmed with targets because it is assumed that there would not be time to meaningfully program them in the event of a nuclear war.
they are not being used. So chill out.
Are you familiar with the term "mutually assured destruction?"
A theory of deterrence based on NOT using missiles!
Even if they are not in flight at this time, they are a threat to us.
some of the money we get from our economic ties with them end up in our defense systems The imbalance of trade is such that effectively zero dollars from the Chinese economy goes toward defense, and the entirety of their defense budget is paid by our purchases.
When you buy that cooling fan, or dog's chew toy, or baby stroller, you're effectively giving that money directly to their military so they can build more missles to point at us.
a simple "I'm sorry" would have our crew home within hours,
I'm immediately reminded of Neville Chamberlain:
"We, the German Führer and Chancellor, and the British Prime Minister, have had a further meeting today and are agreed in recognizing that the question of Anglo-German relations is of the first importance for our two countries and for Europe. We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again. We are resolved that the method of consultation shall be the method adopted to deal with any other questions that may concern our two countries, and we are determined to continue our efforts to remove possible sources of difference, and thus to contribute to assure the peace of Europe." Chamberlain read the above statement in front of 10 Downing St. and said: "My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time... Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."
You're right. "Sorry China. We're afraid of you and want to kiss up to you in spite of the fact that you blew it." It is a game. We both played by the rules, edging toward the limits of the rules and they fell over the line. When that happens, the one who fell apologizes. Period. Now lets have their apology and be done with it.
After the NATO screw-up, Mr. Clinton apologized like crazy, and this was their response:
"They were so indifferent. They simply said, 'Well, we're sorry.' Then they shrugged their shoulders and walked away," said Li Zhaoxing, China's ambassador to Washington.
It's just not that simple, as much as I'd like it to be that simple. In this case, their desire to save face is conflicting with the need to apologize.
I hope that the crew was really able to destroy the OS and data on the systems on the plane before it was captured.
I want them home, too. My heart goes out to them, but they are players in the big game of international relations, and the other side has captured our pawns.
Stinks to be them.
I'm praying for them.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
So you think War is fun?
Absolutely NOT!
War is awful, brutal, and horrible. War is not like Rambo, and that is abundantly clear.
There are times when it is unavoidable.
I'm not saying that we should go to war with the Chinese. I'm just saying that it offends me to think that the Chinese government should expect us to cowtow to their demands.
We are not to blame for this incident. Our people should be home.
Now.
They need to let them go, and give us our plane back.
FWIW, I don't think that God is a great fan of war, but I think that He knows sometimes you must stand up to evil.
Anomaly
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
normally I don't respond to ACs, but this one emailed me privately after posting this to the discussion, so I thought I'd post my response publicly after sending it directly to him.
> Where do you think our nuke missiles point?
Do you think we have nukes pointed at people who don't have nukes pointed at us? That's the deal. If they spin down their birds, we spin ours down.
> Where do you think a big chunk of OUR tax dollars go into? Military.
As they should. We have lots of interests to protect.
> For what? When's the last time the Chinese had bombed a US Embassy?
When's the last time they stole our nuke sub secrets, or our navy secrets, or our army secrets?
> When's the last time we've bombed THEIR'S?
That was a NATO accident. We were wrong. And we apologized.
> You are naive to think that the US doesn't spy on the Chinese.
> Hell, we consider the recon flight *ROUTINE*.
I never said that we don't. Of course we do. But we do it within the rules of fieldcraft. In this incident, they broke the rules, one of
their people died, and now they are holding our citizens hostage.
> Those weren't US citizens,
Sure they are. you can't be in the military unless you're a citizen.
> those were SOLDIERS on a MILTIARY aircraft,
Right.
> they landed in a country they were SPYING on,
> and they are being DETAINED and treated WELL.
Oh thank you thank you thank you for taking care of our people,
why what do we owe you for providing for the needs of our
people?
They landed in China because they were attacked by a Chinese warplane
and the alternatives were to crash in the ocean and die or land in
China. If China had not attacked a plane over int'l waters doing what
was legal by int'l law to do, they would not be there. Period
> Hostage implies a threat of force, there is none here.
With the Chinese government, there is always the threat of force.
> Hell, what would you do if I stand accross the street from you,
> and watch your wife strip and shower?
1. Close the blinds
2. Call the police and report a "peeping tom"
3. Ask my wife to perform step 1 before her next shower
> I'm not on your property, right? Now what if I
> dropped my binocs over your fence and climbed it to retrieve it?
Then I'd tell you to get off my property, tresspasser.
I might call the police, too. Let's say that you were standing on
stilts outside my fence. What I would NOT do is whack you over the head
from behind so that you fell over my fenceinto my yard, and hold you
under armed guard for an indeterminate period of time until you
apoligized for falling into my yard.
If what we were doing was illegal, what China should have done is
complain to the UN. It was not illegal, so they have no reason to
complain. They need to suck it up and apoligize for whacking us over
the head from behind.
Regards,
Anomaly
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
Give me a break!
Katz' article is a troll.
My post should be modded "YHBT YHL"
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
The Chinese government is our enemy.
They have nuclear missles targeted on our cities RIGHT NOW!
They take the monies we pay them to make our kids toys and computer parts and use them to build defensive systems to use in attacking us! The money that flows from US purchases more than funds all of their military infrastructure, in spite of the 18% budget increase given to the military this year.
They have bribed unscrupulous US citizens into stealing military secrets in a campaign of espionage against us.
Just recently they attempted to purchase a building overlooking the Pentagon so they could advance their spy efforts.
This is one of the many reasons that I make every effort to avoid buying Chinese made products.
OF COURSE WE SPY ON THEM!
With respect to this incident, we were flying a slow plane on autopilot over international waters to listen to their emissions.
They were playing chicken with us, and messed up big-time. They collided with us while they were trying to intimidate us, and THEY caused this incident.
They are now holding 24 US citizens hostage, as well as scouring the plane for military secrets, and _WE_ should say "sorry?"
I'm simply incredulous.
Anomaly
PS - God loves you and longs for relationship with you. If you would like to know more about this, please contact me at tom_cooper at bigfoot dot com
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
I'm sure those people were on the payroll of the NSA, but they are in the military and that's the rules everyone agreed
Why would they be on the payroll of the NSA? They're already paid by the military -- do you really think the US payroll is so bloated we'll voluntarily pay people twice for the same job? These are just pilots and techs, not cryptographers...
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Umm, china would completely turn the US into a pile of jell-o almost instantly. in a ground war, they can just give the army hammers and they would wipe out our army in a second or two.
I hope the average chinese infantryman is a damn good swimmer, 'cause that's a long way to go without a strong navy.
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
we had full radio communication with this plane until after it had landed, and I'm SURE that the pilot would have said something if he had been forced to land
Yes, but the "we" in that sentence is the US military command, NOT CNN. So even if "we" heard they were shot at, the white house might not be advertising the fact in hopes of avoiding a full-scale war. Once the US personell get home, I'm sure we'll hear many more details that were forgotten for the sake of diplomacy...
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Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
I spend hundereds a year on my car insurance. And I have never used it. Maybe it's time for a small accident?
:) "hell, I'm paying for insurance, I might as well leave the doors unlocked in this ghetto and see if I can't get a new car!"
The scary thing is I know people who actually DO that kind of stupid shit!
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
My surprise is that a question about China's MFN status hasn't yet come up in the budget negotiations (or have I just not been paying attention). I certainly wouldn't think of them as acting friendly. At least my friends don't act that way.
.. but this would be in combination with Bangladesh, Pakistan, and either Thailand or Afganistan. I don't really see China as being plausible. Still, it's hard to argue that they wouldn't (don't), though I rate them behind Brasil in probability.
Also: yes. I, too, predict that the most powerful nation will switch during the next century. My best estimate for the most likely contender is Japan, followed by Siberia. Then Europe. India is an outside possibility
But I really feel that this has more to do with internal politics than with anything else. Which doesn't, of course, make it easy to solve.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Was this because it was a game they were playing, or simply because nobody knew how to put it back together?
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
One thing no one seems to have mentioned is the black box. Sure the plane didn't crash, but it would have the flight conversations of the pilots. This being the case, surely the tape could be played back to hear the reactions fo the pilots and deduce from that what happened?
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
My totally uninformed guess is that "Wrong Way" Wang Wei was attempting a maneuver to disrupt the airflow over the EP-3E's wing. He did this by flying his fighter within feet of the EP-3E, and getting his wing underneath the P-3's wing. This kind of maneuver has been known to throw planes into stalls and spins. For those who aren't clued in at this point, this kind of flying is extremely dangerous and very reckless. Sure enough, the airflow over the EP-3E's wing was disrupted, the wing stalled, and crashed down right on top of Wang's fighter. This would explain why the EP-3E allegedly appeared to make a sudden turn right into Wang's fighter. It also places the blame directly on Wrong Way Wang for flying way too close to the American plane, and attempting a maneuver that was extremely dangerous both to himself and the Americans.
Any aviation experts or ex-fighter-jocks care to confirm or refute this?
Meldroc, Waster of Electrons
Actually, they're on the payroll of the US Navy. But as they're crew of an electronic reconnaissance aircraft, and some of the crew are cryptographers, I'm sure they work pretty closely with the NSA - that's their area of expertise.
Meldroc, Waster of Electrons
Neville Chamberlain felt exactly the same way. Remember that whole "Peace in our time" schtick?
When was the last time that a bully stopped being a bully because they got what they wanted? You might argue that the United States is a bully, but I'll take US foreign and domestic policy (particularly the latter) over China's any day of the week.
China and the US need have no conversations about airspace. The US has recognized a zone (12 miles, if I remember correctly) which, I believe, is codified in international law. The USSR has always claimed a much larger zone, but nobody else paid any attention to THEM. In any case, holding materiel and uniformed personnel hostage is not the way to get people to apologize to you. It's a great way to start a war, though.
When you get down to the power politics, China needs the US much worse than the US needs China. China would be wise to remember that.
Froma military perspective, China would also be wise to remember what happened the last time an Eastern power decided to get imperialistic in the Pacific ocean. Want to wake up a sleeping tiger? Watch a foreign power try to invade the Phillippines. Or Midway. Or Hawaii. The US will very swiftly mobilize to make that power sorry they woke up that morning. Never get involved in a land war in Asia, sure, but never get involved in an air/sea war with the US Navy. That's a great way to have a very very rough afternoon. The US seaborne conventional forces are the equal of any armed force on Earth, and I don't think China is near foolish enough to try to go nuclear.
Dear God, I hope not anyway...
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
"...bankrupt, outmoded practices of the nation-state..."
Obviously, world leaders haven't gotten a copy of Katz's manifesto that says "Hey! We've got an Internet! It's all good now! Beat thy swords into plowshares and love thy neighbor!"
War is part of human nature. Strife is hard-wired. China is itching for a fight. They're eager to demonstrate their power in the Eastern sphere of influence, and they're looking for any even remotely defensible excuse to do it.
Just because we've got the bloody Internet doesn't mean that all the people who think they can profit by upsetting the geopolitical apple cart are just going to start collecting Beanie Babies on ebay. History demonstrates that war is inevitable. Since the dawn of recorded history, all governments (with the possible exception of Tibet) have at one time or another extended their reach through trade and combat. Why is 2001 so different? It's a dangerous world out there, people.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
No way... your Google search clearly collided aggressively with my gratuitous assertion. I demand that you return my lame metaphor immediately.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
There are plenty of rational reasons not to like any president, but with Clinton, and even more so Bush, there seems to be a lot of _hate_. I think Clinton was a corrupt, self-absorbed fool who worried more about his pecker than his country, but I don't _hate_ him. I was perfectly willing to give him credit when he made a decision I thought was good.
After Bush's relatively poor showing in the debates (after which I had a lot of doubts about him, but no doubts about not wanting to see Gore win), I started noticing a lot of ad hominem attacks rather than legitimate criticism. Like Quayle, he's got the "stupid" label put on him and he could solve world peace, the energy crisis and invent a potion of immortality and there are still a lot of people who would say he's stupid.
In Clinton's case, he was just much better at presenting himself, much more smooth and comfortable with public speaking and much more able to speak (and lie) on the fly. I think in many cases in politics, the delivery counts for more than the message.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
You know, you could try Google. That's what "looking it up" means. It appears that I was wrong. It doesn't look like we have a treaty with Taiwan regarding defnese.
i fi ndex.html
Treaties in Force
A List of Treaties and Other International Agreements
of the United States in Force
as of January 1, 2000
http://www.state.gov/www/global/legal_affairs/t
http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/easr98/
an excerpt:
The United States maintains robust but unofficial relations with the people on Taiwan, governed by the Taiwan Relations Act (TRA) and guided by the three U.S.-PRC joint communiques. We have consistently held that the Taiwan issue is a matter for the Chinese people on both sides of the Taiwan Strait to resolve. The United States has an abiding interest that any resolution be peaceful. In accordance with the TRA and consistent with the three U.S.-PRC communiques, the United States sells defensive arms to Taiwan to enable it to maintain a sufficient self-defense capability. Our limited arms sales have contributed to maintaining peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait and to creating an atmosphere conducive to the improvement of cross-Strait relations, including dialogue.
Rick
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
Having watched the debates, I would generally concede the first two to Gore, although I have severe philosophical differences with him, so there were many places I think Bush won (as far I was concerned because I agreed with him, and not his presentation, and this is the whole purpose of the debates). By the third debate Bush was hitting his stride and his message was coming through better. Gore was clearly arrogant and seemed peeved at having to sit in the same room with Dubya, but despite wandering off into some seriously dull meanderings, I think he gave a pretty good presentation. The problem with "rating" the debates as to who won or lost, the opinion of the listener matters a lot. If you decided to vote for Bush based on his debate, then he won as far as you're concerned. If you voted for Gore, then he won. The only thing everyone can argue objectively is technique, and whether facts (as opposed to philosophies) are correct.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
Hear! Hear! At least there is somebody who understands the situation. It's people like Katz who were "appeasing" Hitler in the late 30's and we all know where that led.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
An apology in diplomatic matters such as these is the same as pleading guilty to a criminal offense. By apologizing, Bush would be proclaiming to the world that the spy plane should not be there in the first place, that the fighter pilot had the right to be buzzing an American plane in international air-space, and that China would have free go to continue such behavior in the future.
Very true, people should realize apologizing in this situation not like saying you are sorry when you bump into someone; which is just common courtesy. But it comes closest to apologizing after a fender bender. Unless you feel that the accident was entirely your fault and are about to agree to have your insurance cover everything you don't start out by apologizing to the other driver because that can be taken as an admission of fault and can be used by them or their lawyer to force you to pay for everything even if it was a situation where both parties were equally at fault, or even a case where the other driver appeared to be at fault.
This type of formal apology carries with it the implication of responsibility and it is by no means clear that the US is primarily responsible for this accident. No apology should be given.
Fighter jets are one seater planes with exception of some two seater planes.
There where 24 people in this plane for which the pilot was responsible for. I don't believe that any of the passangers and crew would of tolerated any 'lessons' being taught at their risk, nor the pilot would of believed he could get away with it.
--------------------
Would you like a Python based alternative to PHP/ASP/JSP?
If you can read German, the following article in German news magazine Der Spiegel might be interesting. It's pretty neutral and very insightful, IMHO: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,127191,00.htm l.
It describes among other things how the hardliners on both sides want to increase tension. There seems to be a history of the Chinese making very hasty accusations (without knowing facts) which then cannot be taken back without losing face.
What strikes me most is how little factual information we have. Nonetheless everybody seems to have an opinion...
I'm not familiar with proper pronounciation of pinyin. How do you pronounce Wong? How is it different from Wang? Does this have something to do with the 4 pitches for pronouncing syllables?
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
I usually don't comment on Jon Katz's stuff -- sometimes he makes good points, sometimes he makes bad ones -- but extending an international incident into the death of globalization is a bit of a reach.
It should be noted, though, that US government servers are currently under attack by chinese hackers. I work for a government contractor, and we've had a couple important (but non-classified) boxes compromised in the past few days. I'm sure that this is just enthusiastic kids in China venting by attacking Evil Uncle Sam, but it's still something to pay attention to.
But regardless of the rhetoric, the diplomatic wrangling, and the internet subterfuge that's going on, *we are not at war*. And if we're able to argue without actual violence -- ignoring network violence, which is not comparable -- that's a *hopeful* omen for future cooperation. By arguing in these ways, we learn about each other, and learn how to stay on each other's good side.
As long as diplomatic relations remain secure between US and China, this incident is a good thing for future globalization. It will prove that although incidents can happen, diplomats will detect the damage, route around it, and learn from the experience.
Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
Incidentally, I live in the UK and the UK is probably the strongest ally the US has politically. Not even the UK government or the UK press have given Bush any support.
Huh? I watch the BBC news every night (they broadcast it on PBS in America), and they've been very harsh on the Chinese. According to the BBC, the international community -- Britain included -- are siding with the US.
Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
--
tagline
... hi bingo
Don't accuse me of patriotism. I never said anything about the legitimacy of the US government. My comments were directed solely to the "government" of China.
Please don't put words in my mouth.
-Steve
Democracy is a poor substitute for liberty.
'Judge not, lest ye be judged'
That is a bullshit cop-out. It should be, "Judge, and prepare to be judged."
Hey, I never said that the US, or any other government for that matter, is legitimate. I merely pointed out that China is controlled by a particularly awful band of brutes.
-Steve
Democracy is a poor substitute for liberty.
The President of the United States warned that China's continued detention of 24 US Navy personnel "could" harm relations between the two governments. It damned-well should. This is a hostage situation, and our government appears to be primarily concerned about how this might somehow affect US corporate interests. The problem is that the President is thinking about the "government" of China in the wrong terms. The President's problem is likely that when he thinks of the "government" of China, he is thinking, "sovereign". He should be thinking, "thugs."
The "government" of China is no more legitimate than the Gambino crime family . I say this realizing that the comparison is extreme and unfair. The Gambino crime family, of course, has not murdered anywhere near as many people as the "government" of China. I apologize in advance to the Gambino crime family for any offense created by my comparison of them to the "government" of China -- none was intended. However, even though the magnitude of the crimes is, different, I think it is useful to use the familiar concept of organized crime when trying to assess the "government" of China. Organized crime, after all, is what the "government" of China is all about.
In any other situation, how would one characterize a group which seizes control of a geographic area (their "turf"), intimidating not only the inhabitants but also nearby neighbors who refuse to knuckle under? These thugs loot the wealth from the area, under the hollow pretext of "protecting" the victims. It is not primarily the detention of the 24 US Navy personnel that should outrage any decent person (although clearly it should), but the detention, torture and murder of the people of China and Tibet.
The watchword of the day is "diplomacy." Is there no limit to the monsters who can be legitimized by the constant intonation of the word "diplomacy" by those willing to play "make believe." Yasser Arafat . The IRA. The "government" of China. Perhaps if Hitler had lived, we could have simply tarted him up with the gaudy trappings of enough "diplomacy" to give him a legitimacy makeover. The question, of course is, why would we do such a thing? Why would we pretend that any of these people should be treated more like a dignitary than a mass murderer? The only reason I can begin to see is political expediency. This is pragmatism at its worst.
Honesty is still worth something. Murder is still the worst crime one can commit against another. Locking people up and torturing them for expressing their views is wrong. Cultural relativism doesn't bring back the dead or missing. The President should learn to call the "government" of China what it is: criminal.
-Steve
Democracy is a poor substitute for liberty.
There are notible exceptions such as main battle field rifle were the soviet AKs are better because of their renowned durability.
Not quite. The AK's effective range is only around 300m, whereas US Marines must qualify with their service rifle on 500m courses. An AK can, in fact, jam, although you've got to give it lots of abuse. The advantage of the AK for the Soviet economy, and for the Third World, was that it was an extremely cheap rifle to produce and required very little technical skill to maintain.
The US M-16A2 is as reliable as the AK is, surprisingly enough. The abysmal track record of the original M-16 in Vietnam stemmed from the fact that (a) the Army didn't follow the designer's recommendations on ammunition, and (b) the Army didn't procure anywhere near enough cleaning kits. The first led to greatly increased powder fouling, and the second led to the troops believing the M-16 was a self-cleaning rifle, "because otherwise we'd have been issued cleaning kits, right?"
Ranger LRRPs in Vietnam which were issued cleaning kits and took proper care of their weapons reported no significant reliability problems, although there was a lot of grousing about excessive fouling.
Insofar as whichever one is "better"... whichever one you happen to have in your hands when you need it is automatically the best weapon on Earth, because every other weapon is not in your hands, and thus totally worthless.
You and I, right now, can have this conversation. We could stand in front of the White House and point out all of these flaws to everyone that comes by, we can publish articles and books exposing them, and we can work with our elected representatives to try and change the system. In short, we can openly criticize the hell out of the system, as much as we want. Try that in China.
The US is not perfect by a long shot. But since we can talk about and admit our mistakes, we can change them. We had slavery once, but no longer, even though it took a damn long time. I certainly hope that the War on Some Drugs and the ridiculous incarceration route go that way too. But can you imagine the US trying to do, _today_, the sorts of things it did to American Indians in the past, or even to Asian americans in WWII? It would be unthinkable; the public outcry would be tremendous. We're not perfect, but we're learning.
If you're referring to this incident, there was no issue of holding the pilot hostage -- he was defecting, not being forced down.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Sometimes it's an advantage to be old enough to remember when that happened.
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Yes, I know about KAL 007. It was in USSR airspace, and thus liable to shootdown under the "rules". Unfortunately the "rules" did not consider civilian aircraft with bad navigation. Especially civilian aircraft on courses that looked like penetration courses and which looked, on radar, like military recon aircraft. The USSR pilots did get a visual before firing, and knew it was a civilian. But fired anyway. After that, the "rules" changed.
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IIRC (it's been a while since this happened) the 747 had a computer navigation system (or possibly the autopilot?) and it was thought that the pilots had entered the wrong numbers into it. Personally, I don't think that civilian airliners would have been used to test air defense networks, that's what we have e3p aircraft for. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence" applies here.
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I'm sorry, but the Chinese have blown this way out of proportion. There was a mid-air accident of unknown origin and they lost a pilot. We lose pilots every month just testing systems like the Osprey.
So what do they do in response? They forcibly imprison 24 of our people. 24 people denied their freedom and separated from their friends, coworkers, and family.
This is the true face of Communism.
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"We're sorry, but the website you're trying to reach has been disconnected."
Look, China doesn't like it that we spy on them, and we don't like it that while spying on them one of their fighters crashed into our spy plane. I don't see it as unreasonable for both parties to apologize for the respective actions. That doesn't mean that either side will stop, nor say anything about my opinion in the matter. If a Japanese fighter smashed into a Chinese spy plane it'd be the same deal.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Oh, ok, it's called "surveillance"...I'll tell that to the raving horde of slashdotters next time an article about government "surveillance" of citezenry comes up. I'll just tell em "there's not a thing in the world wrong with that". Peeping toms should agree too.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
How about *we* apologize for spying, and *they* apologize for crashing a fighter into our spy plane?
Seems fair to me.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Nationalism is outdated, and rather illogical in the first place. And that's what this all boils down to. A few leaders that need to stroke their egos, and the egos of those people still sounding like five-year-old children crying "my country is better than your country".
It's not about honor, like some people suggest. Honor isn't about remaining steadfast and refusing to admit to a mistake at whatever cost.
Both countries made mistakes. The US military was just doing what it loves to do, find any way to push the limits, to get to the edge of what's legal and forget about the intent. That's why the spy planes so close to China's borders. China, on the other hand, sent a pilot who was known to cause trouble, to push things too close, while escorting and harassing the spy plane.
I find these "I'd rather do it my way than the right way" ideas to be downright pathetic. Sadly, they seem to be common. The voters who put people into office here in the US still have this belief that we should be fiercly defending the country, that we should be loyal to the flag no matter what. Therefore we have leaders that also follow such blind nationalism. Heck, it is any wonder that so many people find a piece of cloth more important than the freedoms it's supposed to stand for?
The whole crisis makes me sick. It's a huge game of chicken to satisfy a few male egos, with no regard or concern for what the result is. The real crisis should be for the citizens of both countries, with the realization of how poor and clueless their leaders really are.
---
"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
To borrow another analogy, yes, pedestrians have the right of way, but if you hop into the crosswalk directly in front of a bus on a rainy day, you're "dead right" - as in "roadkill".
When it comes to insurance claims for auto accidents - where the goal is to sue the bejeezus out of your opponent in front of a sympathetic jury, your argument works. The consequences of any given mistake are usually a fender-bender, maybe a couple of injuries, once in a while, a fatality, but on balance, the system works.
When it comes to airmanship - where the goal is to not let the mistake happen again, it doesn't. The consequences of screwing up in the air almost always result in the deaths of everyone involved, and Not Letting It Happen Again becomes paramount.
As a society, we tolerate an astonishing amount of clueless behavior on the roads, and we don't train our drivers well enough to understand the consequences of their actions. The same is not true of pilots. (American or Chinese). During peacetime, it's their job not to put themselves, or other aircraft, in harm's way.
War with China means the nukes are probably coming out. Nukes are a likely end state to our civilization. That should be unacceptable to everyone who has the foresight to realize that.
It scares me that there might be a sizeable amount of people in our country who think as you do and continue to blame everything on liberals.
Well, duh. Let me make this as simple as possible: It...Was...Not...Our...Fault. No government is in the habit of apologizing for acts it did not commit. The Chinese military, whether through incompetence or malice, are responsible for this incident. In fact recent reports suggest that the Navy plane may have been fired upon, which would be an act of war by the government you seem determined to kneel before.
I am far from a flag-waving nationalist; I have strongly criticized the US government on many occasions. But this time, the US is right, China is wrong, and it is that simple.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Well, the media had spent weeks portraying Gore as a master statesman and Bush as a buffoon, so when Bush failed to screw up too badly they were naturally surprised. By my scoring the debates were roughly a draw (maybe a slight edge to Bush because of how obnoxious Gore came off), but Bush benefitted a lot from the low expectations.
As far as Corruption in the Clinton administration. This is difficult to say. The majority of all charges that had been thrown up against Clinton failed to stick because they were untrue.
Or they failed to stick because evidence mysteriously vanished, or witnesses refused to testify, or because Congress saw fit to spend time on vital issues like exactly how often he boinked interns rather than irrelevant actions like accepting campaign funds from the Chinese military.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
I'm sorry, but what i don't understand about the issue is: Why does it have to be the chinese governments fault? It could only be the chinese governments fault if they specifically ordered the pilot to crash that plane. While this is what might have happened noone is asking them to admit that. So there was a nice way out of the whole thing, by blaming it on the crews of one or both of the planes. But the Chinese decided not to go that way, they saw that by keeping the American crew hostage they could leverage some pressure and decided to play a game of chicken with the US government.
Now they knew that it wouldn't be easy to coax an apology out of the USA. If they applied their own rules it would be virtually impossible, but they also have plenty of foreign affairs analysts who could have told them. The whole thing only makes sense, if the chinese government win something by an apology. Else why risk to loose face by demanding an apology the USA might refuse? Now the Chinese Govt. brought themselves into a position it can't easily back out, but that in itself is no reason for the US to help them out. (The fact that the american crew might want home is, though).
I mean, if we allow argumentation like "Well ok we shouldn't have started it, but now we can't do anything about it anyway, so now it's your turn to offer everyone an easy way out." it'd make things a little too easy to screw oneself out of options and let the other side sort out the diplomatic mess.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
It's a game out there - nobody plays nice if they can get away with it.
Wah!
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
Although at the moment it looks like both China and the US are going to be headed for some kind of economic mussle-flexing (like the US Congress revoking MFN status or even setting up a boycott) there is some substantial precedence in the US for going to war under these conditions.
In particular, the Spanish-American War was started by "the sinking of the USS Maine", and then whipped up by the US news media, particularly William Randolph Hearst and the newspapers he owned. Indeed, the differences between a US battleship sitting in a foriegn port and a military airplane flying close to a "hostile" country are very similiar.
One difference between the two is that the people of the United States are not really trying to get a major war started, even though I can see US-China relations potentially going back to policies similar to what they were like before President Nixon. It does concern me, however, that the Chinese government is stiring up support of its own people, to the point that war may be the only option. And most American's won't sit idle and tolerate actions by the Chinese Army like what happened to both Russia and Vietnam, where China and those respective countries bumped up against each other and had a few thousand casualties before they settled their differences.
The economic impact is very real, and right now the company I work for is looking for alternative supplies for parts currently made in China.
Historically spy planes have not been very stealthy. The U2 and the SR-71 were simply high / fast flyers that would evade missiles. Missile attacks obviously suggests being spotted. However these planes were not capable of carrying much load, so they were very costly relative to the amount of information they gathered.
During peace times, however, "reconnaissance" missions can afford to be less defensive, since being shot down would cause an international incident.. Thus these air-ships are loaded to the gills with equipment capturing many orders of magnitude as much info as the simple camera mounted high fliers (which, by the way have been replaced by satilites).
Given that a "spy" insinuates secrecy, a spy-plane or satalites is anything but. Perhaps when the U2 was first invented, there was an element of surprize, but not in the modern day. In fact, I'm not even aware of any modern airplanes that could act in a "spying" mode. The stealth fighters and bomber are hardly suited for effective spying. The former are again too small to do much other than picture taking, and the latter are too big and expensive to risk using for anything other than bombing.
My take is that we've culturally merged the two words, and the net effect is the same.. Gathering intelligence.
-Michael
-Michael
They are still a nation because the US gives them billions of dollars a year
True I suppose, but another element of survival is the friends/contacts you make. However, Israel does have a good infrastructure. Virtually everyone is literate, and I believe most males are required to serve in the military. The other oil bearing Arab nations get plenty of money, yet their military is with mixed capabilities due to many factors.
-Michael
-Michael
A war between nations is incomprable to a scuffle between individuals.
/assert yourself, or are conquored. Standing up to a bully can give you a bloody nose or get suspended from school; possibly altering your future. If you're in a bad part of town, the bully might be a gang with little concern for your life.
I don't see how.. If a neighboring country covets your land, it's not unlike a bully liking your watch. You either defend
And as you allude to the situation in israel, do you think the people there on either side prefer the current state of war to the previous of peace?
What peace ever existed between these nations? Since Israel's inception there have been skirmishes and wars.
And moreso, in the current age, where any large scale war immediately becomes a question of total annihilation, do you really think that desirable?
Well, the cold war potentially saved hundreds of millions of lives (if not billions of lives) since we never -actually- went to war.. It was the mutual respect due to assertiveness and demonstrability of the intention to use force that allowed rational thinking and eventually MAD (mutually assured destruction). If you know you can't win, then there's no point in playing the game.
Likewise, if you've demonstrated to a bully that you can kick his but, and you already know that he's going to ruin your day, then the two of you will not litely engage in squabbles.
Whether or not you agree with the logic, if you are a passifistic government no protected by an aggressive government, then you will be fodder for the "bully countries"; UN or no.
-Michael
-Michael
I agree, but further wanted to add that we were not allowed to apply intelligent warefare against the north. We were limited in the amount of bombing we were allowed to do; We couldn't enter their zones for political reasons.
The problem was that we didn't want to insite the Chinese or Russians. By merely helping defend the south, we were not being agressive. However, If we were determined to take the north, we probably wouldn't have suffered any more than we did, but would have come away with more pride. But this would have been at the expensive of possibly triggering an all out war.
Its sad that so few americans (Im from the UK) actually spend some time learning the full history of the vietnam conflict.
I agree in principle, but would like to argue that almost all "history" is squeezed into 4 yeras of American High School.. Most anything in elementary school is prepreatory / culturally based. History is by no means a requirement in College. In that time, obviously American and European history takes great precidence, and then there's the desire for politics. Finally the rest of the world is grouped together at the whims of a given teacher.
The biggest problem is that very few people actually understand Vietnam.. Even after studying it, I don't really understand it intelligently enough. With people squabbling over the "whys" and results, it's difficult to formulate a "chapter" in American or world history on the subject, as you would World War I or II.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if our shame prevents us from bringing the topic up at all. Children of the 70's and 80's would be taught about the "baby killers", and other such outrages. Being a conservative teacher, it would be difficult to reconsile such topics in class. I recently heard on TV how the Japanese made it illegal to refer to certain massacres they committed during World War II. It's omitted from their text books, etc.
It's not surprising that a 3'rd party would have a larger point of view on the topic of Vietnam.
-Michael
-Michael
And most important, they think the Communist Party is doing a pretty good job, all things considered.
Ever read 1984? The biggest job of a government is to convince its subjects that it's doing a good job. This in and of itself is not a measure of greatness. Not to mention the homogeneity of the Chinese people is in stark contrast with China against virtually any other nation.
England was unable to maintain civility between the Hindu people and the Islamic people. How can anyone believe that in this day and age, the entire world can fall under a single rule of law?
No imperialist power could maintain a stranglehold on the entire world today. It would take the entire Chinese population to act as a police force for the rest of the world (1 in every 4). (Hey, it would get them out of agriculture).
-Michael
-Michael
its 1.2 billion people, 80% of whom are still farmers (compare 2% in developed countries.)
Interesting thought exercize. What happens if more of the Chinese switch from farming to more industrial forms of labor?
Well, one thing definately happens, labor supply goes up and food production goes down. In a free-market economy, this would mean wages would go through the floor while the supply of food deminishes. (cost of food escalates) Thus workers wouldn't be able to earn enough to buy the same foods that they were previously growing... Thus, people would predominantly stick with farming.
In pure communism, theoretically everyone gets paid the same (and only bonuses are applied as incentives), thus the government's role is to employ people so as to best offset the cost of their salary. Well this requires the creation of new industries (even if there isn't sufficient demand). Well, with the decimation of the farming labor, the industrialization of agriculture would have to happen so as to feed everyone. Ok, that might balance, but now what about the actual industrialization. Surely the Chinese would require massive imports (as any other modern nation). Which means they'd have to export something valuable. But now we enter the realm of free-markets; something Communism doesn't work well with. One need only look at Russia to see how industry plagued with communisitic innefficiencies can stiffle development.
I'm not personally worried about China dominating the world economy (and thereby positioning itself for world domination).
If China grows more powerful, it will be due to some natural phenomina, not just a beurocratic manipulation of vast land and labor resources. There is no such thing as Utopia; in any system, there are resistive feed-backs that will prevent perpetual growth.
Additionally, I do not believe China would benifit from war. Any major nation that they might come to war with would incite world war III. If it leads to nuclear war, then everyone dies, and obviously nobody wins. If everyone sticks to traditional warfare, then the only advantage China has is manpower (essentially as Russia had durring WW II). It is unlikely that they could mount a sea attack against the US, since they'd have to ferry troops on ships which could easily be sunk. Thus they'd be more advantaged to attack Asian nations. Which ultimately means either Europe or Russia. But attacking Russia would probably mean facing all major world powers. And at that point, they're outnumbered at least 1.1 to one.
If they found Russia to be an ally, then they'd possibly succeed, but that's a whole new problem.
-Michael
Explain why the US Government was so reluctant to join the war earlier then?
Did ANYBODY watch the Transformers Generation 2 series? It was, after all modeled after the Americans in WW2. The Quntisons were a "peaceful" race. At least in the sence that they never fought. Sure they had gladitory areans for foreigners, but that's just an ancient form of boxing right?
Anyway, the point is that we were well into the war before a single American died. Our industry and exports were _enormous_ due to the sale of arms to European Allies. We were supplying the Chinese with airplanes, the British with tanks and guns, while at the same time, building our own infrastructure.
It wasn't the war that empowered us, it was the demand for industrial products that spawned exports and full employment.
Given this view, it should make sence WHY we wanted to stay out of it. We had everything to gain. Allow the Europeans to decimate their natural resources, and man-power, while staying safe in our natural barrier; getting richer all the while. By the time we joined the war, any remaining unemployment was obsorbed through a dramatic population reduction.
The idea that war itself invigorates the economy is misleading. In the "Battle tech" saga, war-torn lands had their factories distroyed regularly, their raw minerals either consumed, or destoryed (due to scored earth policies), their brightest minds assasinated, their bravest men slaughtered. When all is said and done, all that is left are the cowards that knew to run and hide, and the small time farmers.. Essentially, a giant leap backwards. You might proclaim "innovation", but if your experimental factories are constantly being destroyed and every penny you have is being devoted towards basic guns, you simply don't have the resources to devote towards experimentation.
Again, the only reason WWII provided such innovation was because research was able to be carried on in remote, protected regions. Germany quickly established a safe inner land, and the US mainland obviously was never touched. It would be rather difficult to hold large experiments in the often bombed british isles, especially with much of their money going to the US and other nations.
-Michael
-Michael
That being said, war sucks and should be avoided- because they can be no winners.
Not true. The best way to handle a bully is to stand up to them.. Otherwise they'll walk all over you.. Best advice you can give a geek: Be willing to take a few bruises, since the Bully will think twice before harrasing you (since there's now a cost to each encounter).
If a nation simply appeases at each standoff, then the smaller wolves will gain some bravery. Look at Israel and it's neighbors.. They've gone to war numerous times to assert themselves in the bullied area. Sure they don't play nicely either, but they're still here as a nation because they have the means and the resolve to confront bullies.
In fact, it's very natural to war. Those passive animals that only flee don't get the water hole when times are bad, and eventually die off.
-Michael
-Michael
that the economic/trade impact of this entire stand-off will probably over-rule anything else. It'll be something stupid like "here's your people, but we blew-up your plane"... now, about the trade agreement.....
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
(3) the fallout this will have on Favored Nations trading status for China. The Congress could still wimp out and give MFN again, but I'm hoping they'll stop kowtowing to the Great Bear here.
1. There is no "giving MFN again" anymore. Under Clinton, China was granted Permenant Normal Trading Relations. There is no more annual vote in congress.
2. The "Great Bear" is Russia, not China. China is (if you care to make such references) the Dragon.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Does a supersonic jet "Mach 2.20 at 36,090 ft" get kicked out of the air by a slow "Maximum speed at 15,000 ft 380 knots true air speed" P3?
Seems as if the Chinese pilot was a little close for this to happen. For the accident to happen the Chinese pilot had to be closer then 1 second "normal reaction time" this would put him within 640 feet or less then 1/8 mile. He could have avoided the accident otherwise.
Note this still requires the P3 to have a absolute change in velocity to the direction of the Chinese jet in less then 1 second, so he was allot closer then the 1/8 mile.
Get a free ipod.
An unarmed US prop plane destroys a slightly-less-than-state-of-the-art yet armed-to-the-teeth and kick-ass-in-its-own-right Chinese military jet. That same prop plane lands on Chinese soil and (I assume) all that tasty spy gear has been destroyed and the crew more-or-less unharmed (sorry, I'm having a hyphen problem today).
Now, if one of our Tomcats was knocked down by a Chinese propeller plane, you can rest assured that the Pentagon would be called on the carpet. The press would have a field day. Heads would roll.
Now, if I remember my Asian psychology correctly, multiply the above paragraph by 100. the Chinese military is gonna be insane. Big Loss of Prestiege by people who are not used to eating crow. They don't have to justify anything to the West, they have to recover whatever face they can for their own survival.
"If god did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him" --Voltaire
80% of those people are still farmers, will remain farmers, will never have a higher quality of life, and will never care because of ignorance.
You really love your fellow man, don't you?
Nothing is good about Communism.
Nothing is good about the Democrats or Replubicans, either...
The world won't ever be free until we're all Libertarian and can truely care about peace and goodwill without having to fall back on pitiful excuses such as God, Country, or Self-Interest.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
Interesting=2, Informative=1, Funny=1, Total=4
What that means is that only 1/4th of the people who moderated this post realized it was meant to be a joke.
Either that or 3 of the 4 moderators are Chinese, which sort of does figure in with world population numbers.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
I find this whole incident hilarious, yes, you read that correctly, HILARIOUS
Mommy! China wrecked my spy plane! Make them say they're sorry!
Mommy! US crashed our plane and killed the pilot! Make them say they're sorry!
Really, no one should be apologizing to anyone here! China should give our plane back, and the crew and be done with it. They should have done this from day one and this story never would have made it to press.
I heard a DJ make an interesting comment this morning. He said something about how the Chinese were just stalling so they could check out our spy plane, and when they are done they won't care about apologizing, they'll just give the plane back. He then went on to say that he was more worried about the crew than the plane. Well, to tell the truth, I'm more worried about that plane than the crew. I think our crew will be returned unharmed. If they aren't then China will have a lot of trouble and not just from the US. The plane on the other hand, is fair game. It poses a national security threat. Who knows what kind of technology is on that thing.
Sorry, this was meant to be a rant, not a troll.
Let's count how many ways you're wrong.
1. Both the U.S. and China recognize 12 miles as being the limit to territorial waters.
2. The plane is not spying. It is a marked U.S. military plane monitoring electronic signals over international water. Nothing spying there.
3. They fly in a loop and anyway if they do this then China should know it and anticipate it.
4. The Chinese refused to allow the U.S. to help rescue the pilot. It is possible he is still alive and being used for PR purposes. And the 24 members of the Navy are not spies. They were in international space in a marked Navy plane, and are all uniformed. Therefore nothing near being a spy.
5. All media distort facts.
6. They kidnapped 24 U.S. citizens. I don't know exactly what treaties they have signed, but they are morally wrong.
7. This is why we need to force the Chinese to give up. I doubt they would risk, war, international sanctions or anything like that if they refuse to released the kidnapped Americans.
Nascantur in Admiratione. (Let them be born in Wonder)
Now from a conservative stance. They are communist. The whole execution thing still applies as does the penal code. Fifteen years for jaywalking in a military run prison is overkill. Religion is outlawed. Look what they did to all the Buddhists and Catholics. What about their actions against Taiwan? Why not just go talk to Harry Wu about his experiences in China? Harry Wu. Conservative or Liberal, China is a threat to our Constitutional Republic and all the world's FREE democracies.
The state is hyperreal -- it operates like software. It seems stable enough while the power is on and it hasn't run into any major bugs, but interrupt the power supply or corrupt it, and the state falls apart.
This is probably the worst analogy I've heard in a while. You don't have to mention 'software' or 'linux' to get geeks to understand something that's outside those realms. Don't try to make everything fit into those categories.
Software is a set of instructions, and the machine follows those instructions. Politics and sovereign diplomacy are comprised of thousands or millions of different people who each have their own agendas. If you pull the plug on a computer, it STOPS. If you corrupt a government, it STILL has thousands or millions of different people who each have their own agendas; the agendas are just that much more recklessly out of tune.
[
Thanks on the correction re: symbols.
As for MFN, I thought that was on the block but barely missed-- I had heard discussions that some in Congress were quite relieved that we left it at annual review in face of this. Got a link? Always glad to be corrected.
[
"The US plane was in international airspace on autopilot"
Perhaps from an American point of view. As far as the Chinese are concerned, that is their airspace, and the Americans are only allowed to fly there until the Chinese finally take back Taiwan and all the ocean inbetween. Things are not as black and white as your silly little mind would like them to be.
Katz presents a vision of the standoff that is far too simple. Given, the standoff is not the only point of the article, but there is enough involved for it to be a pain in the ass.
The Chinese want more than a simple apology from the US in order to free the crew of the American plane. They also want the US to end all flights off the coast of China, specifically in the South China sea, beyond that, all flights around Taiwan.
Demands like this are presented on behalf of the Chinese military, which has been growing in power as the Chinese grow dissatisfied with their opressive, corrupt, and generally worlthless unelected leaders. China's military also wants to "take back" Taiwan. If they can get the US to apoligize for activities relating to US espionage off the China coast, they get a great power boost. If they can use it to forward their machinations against Taiwan, all the better. While military subversion of the Chinese government might be good at breaking down their terribly mismanaged communist system, a military government in China might be even worse.
Jiang Zemin and his corhorts, of course, see this and must stand up and make simlar demands, so that they are not seen as an enemy of the military, and so that the military can not say that he is backing down to the US like he was percieved to have done when the US accidentally bombed a Chinese embassy in the balkan conflicts.
Last of all, comes the US. Our leaders muyst show a strong front against the Chinese, so that we can continue to support the Taiwanese. Taiwan is an invaluable trade partner, and if China were to conquer Taiwan, it would drastically raise prices on many goods, especailly compter parts, that come into the US. Such things would have a disasterous affect on the US economy given its present shaken state. It would also lead to a terrible loss of life for the Taiwanese, many of whom would resist a Chinese takeoever to their deaths.
So what it all comes down to is far more than a simple apology for a midair accident. In the greater scheme of things, the lives of the airmen involved mean nothing. What matters here is the freedom, wealth, and lives of billions of people, Chinese, Taiwanese, and Americans.
He did? I thought Mao used Communism to force tens of millions of people from the cities into the countryside, where they died like flies. Oh yeah, and to consolidate the absolute power of him & his Communist cronies over the entire country.
Too bad that most of the major powers who label themselves "Communist" don't even remotely resemble the utopias envisioned in the texts where that label originated...
The problem with this whole issue is that Americans want to rule the world by being friends with everyone while the Chinese know that the real way to rule is to manipulate people and maintain opressive control
It's obvious that we don't want to rule the world. How's that you say? Japan still exists as a country, as does Germany and Italy. We could have been like the Soviets and just not left after WWII. We could have annexed Japan and most of western europe if we were truly an expanionist country.
Do the same to any Chinese military crafts near the US air border.
Send an empty aircraft on autopilot, crash with it. Kill the pilot. And ask the Chinese government to claim total responsibility for the "death" of a non-existent US pilot.
Apologizing once can bring up so many opportunities. Think about it.
In this postmodern|global|technocentric|connected|whatever age that we live in, there is a notion that changes in the manner in which people communicate as well as changes in commerce are eroding the traditional roles of nation-states. Katz is arguing the opposite: that states are becoming hyperreal. Take that word literally. Physical barriers to identity (borders, geography, sheer distance) are becoming irrelevant. The reaction to this is to boost the nation-state's role as the bounding entity of identity and ideology.
Katz thinks that the current crisis with China illustrates this. The idea is that the crux of the crisis are two conflicting cultural imperatives (China: You must apologize. U.S.: Never say sorry.) And, just like that, "real" (read: pragmatic) considerations are demoted.
Now, given that, 1) this is about apologies. Note that, depending on what point you're trying to make, what this is about will vary. "Political manoevering to use as a bargaining chip in any forthcoming negotiations?" Maybe. Without any supporting statements, it's not a very useful statement. 2) Right, the internet will not democratize China. It also won't revolutionize grassroots activism. It won't decentralize government. It won't create an enlightened, vibrant mass culture. It won't make shopping easier than ever before. It won't make me rich. But none of those points were Katz's point in this article.
You hit on chinas big problem breifly: it has no money.
None at all. Some overwhelming majority of china is in poverty. The majority of china is agrarian.
Later you say that its "unlikely" for china to launch a sea attack against the US ? They can't launch a sea attack against taiwan!! China has been holding its cards forever w.r.t. taiwan because they know there is a good chance of them giving it their all and not succeeding. Then how do they look ? If china can't even handle taiwan, then chinas legitimacy as anything more than a big farm goes out the door immediately.
At the same time, they can't afford to _not_ make a lot of noise towards taiwan.. else they seem powerless.
China has the military capability to make life in taiwan really shitty for a while, but not to launch a full scale successful amphibious assault. amphibious assult needs lots and lots of people (chinas got that), lots and lots of special equipment (china probably doesn't ahve that). Taiwan is by default in the strong position. _Especially_ since taiwan is _made_ of money and can buy all the national defense they want!!
There is absolutely no capacity for china to launch a relevant assault against the US. The only risk is a long range nuclear strike, and even then, the biggest fear is that they've figured out the technology stolen from US labs and how to use it on their aging fleet of sovet-era military hardware.
as far as your interesting thought excercize...
only a few of the "asian tigers" have been able to successfully turn from agrarian poverty stricken societies into relevant economies. S korea, taiwan, and perhaps malaysia. S korea was able to do so with debt financed capital and controlling governments. Taiwan was able to do so with precisely controlled elections and intelligent fiscal policy. Malaysia was able to do so iirc with its lucky supply of relevant natural resources.
If you look at china on the otherhand, historically the largest scale national works projects have been water control. The national mobilization of the people to a specific aim you see in other (smaller) asian nations has not really been acheived in china to any other aim besides keeping millinos of people from dying from yearly flooding. The way you farm today is largely unchanged from the way you farmed 4000 years ago.
Additionally, in S Korea, taiwan, and malaysia you've got governments who's only real means towards legitimacy was a cocktail of economic growth and psuedo government tranquility. Apart from mongol rule (who were shortly assimilated into chinese culture anyway) and breif british colonialism, china has been a soverign nation for thousands of years. The current regime does not seem to have evolved out of the "we must suppress the people to remain legitimate" fallacy that in effect stifles all societal progress. Only with careful use of policing the poeple offset by measurable GDP gains have the other asian nations been able to grow GDP and bridge into modern society.
Until the majority of chinas labor force isn't concentrated on feeding chinas labor force, dont expect much from china in terms of international power.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
First, software doesn't adapt itself and change without reprogramming. Software doesn't have to make decisions that it's not programmed to process.
Ultimately, software is binary and cannot craft solutions that incorporate the tremendous variety of influences that human beings (yes, Virginia, the State Department is still run by humans) have to deal with every day.
Is China "crashing" right now? Is the US "buggy" right now over this spy plane issue? No. They're both acting in their own self-interests.
China wants to roll back US spying to the degree that it can. It wants to extend its own terrority further into international waters wherever possible. It wants to keep US hubris in check and show that it means business in defending its own interests.
The US wants to continue the tradition of spying from international waters. It wants to maintain existing definitions of territory. It wants to show China that it sees changes in the status quo as aggressive moves.
Note to Katz: go to Mongolia. Don't bring any techno-gizmos at all. Remain unwired for a month. Watch the traders and tribesmen. See how they interact. Come back and report to Slashdot with your observations. Do not use any words that include the following: hyper, techno, uber, ultra, quasi, multi, digital, electronic, net, or web.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Case in point: the Korean War.
The US put out a list of nations it would defend with force against Communist attack. South Korea was not on that list. China and North Korea took this as tacit understanding that South Korea was not an area the US was willing to spill blood over.
The result is pretty well-known, even to today's undereducated American populace. North Korea attacked, the Korean War was started, the US and many other countries lost a lot of men and women in a contest that could have been avoided had the US communicated its intentions better.
Language is extremely powerful, and in the diplomatic arena those who don't wield it well are doomed to failure. To think of these words being exchanged as "mere posturing" is to expose a fundamental misunderstanding about how humans interact. Communicate weakness, and that perceived weakness will be acted upon. Communicate strength, and that perceived strength will be acted upon.
I'd certainly rather have a harsh exchange of words, a lot of tension, and ultimately a resolution that doesn't weaken America's position with China than an immediate backing down and apology for something that doesn't deserve it. The Chinese would certainly see such an apology as an admission by the US that when bullied, we'll acquiesce.
An apology over a downed plane is far from a Chamberlain-style cave-in, but not as far as we might think.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
It seems to me the China can only win here. They KNOW that any U.S. president who got elected to office owes U.S. corporations BIG TIME, and in knowing this, they know that Nike and all of the other corporations that manufacture over there, DO NOT WANT TO MOVE. That would hurt their bottom line and screw up their production schedules.
I truly don't think that China benefits much from U.S. corporations manufacturing over there. It's the corporations that benefit the most.
Say nothing of the fact that they still have our guys and gals over there.
Since China knows this, and they know that the corporations would pressure Bush to do whatever it takes, I suspect at the end of the day we will be apologizing.
Rich...
Ignore Alien Orders
that the U.S. should just ask the Chinese to let a neutral 3rd party investigate and lay blame on the responsible party if they can find one.
IHO the Chinese will never agree, the chinese military are self evidently trying evade their responsibility for this. Detaining the US pilots is all about witholding their evidence/accounts than directly blackmail the US into accepting responsibility.
Everybody knows they WILL be released eventually.
First, since we have neither talked to our crewmen nor examined our airplane, we cannot know who was at fault. It would be inappropriate to apologise in such a situation.
Second, this is not about egos. It isn't about detainees. Let's call these guys what they are - hostages. China is holding our servicemen and women hostage. And for what?
Third, we were operating in international airspace. Notice the bolded word in that sentence - international. If you catch a spy inside your country, you can jail or expel him. However, it's a commonly accepted practice to spy on countries from outside their borders. There's nothing wrong with it!
Fourth, you don't use a semi-truck to knock a Porsche off the road. Similarly, to think that our klunky, large P3 (the semi) would run into their highly maneuverable, high-speed fighter jet (the Porsche) is ridiculous. There are reports that their fighter jet came to within three feet of our plane twice before the two collided.
Fifth, there's no reason to think that the Chinese will willingly and safely return our men and women, were we to offer some sort of ludicrious apology. Anyone who thinks China is our ally hasn't been paying attention.
You people who get your news from CNN or the major networks need to retune your TV sets and web browsers to FOX News Channel.
US: O Chinese government, we apologize.
CHINA: It is a good apology. But we have decided that the apology is not enough. Next you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forest... with... a herring! [dramatic chord]
steveha (apologies to Monty Python)
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Uh ... No.
KAL 007's flight path ran from Seoul up to Anchorage and the pilots had (probably unofficial) permission/encouragement to edge over the line into Soviet airspace. IIRC, the USSR warned the planes on more than one occaision, and when the warnings were ignored, decided to take a stand and fire.
There were (to the best of my recollection) unsubstantiated claims by the Soviets that KAL 007's planes had spy-gear on them.
I recall this because I've flown on that flight, on that route, about a year before the flight that was shot down.
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
So Linus, what are we going to do tonight?
The same thing we do every night Tux. Try to take over the world!
Nothing could be futher from the truth. China is a xenophobic, imperialist, racist nation. Only the most xenophobic people on earth could have come up with the Great Wall of China. China has always shunned the outside world, even when the ideas from the outside world would better their society. That is why the nation that 1000 years ago was the greatest nation on earth no longer is the greatest nation on earth. They cannot learn from the outside world.
The USA, on the other hand, is a melting pot of people's and ideas from all over the globe. That is why America is the greatest nation on earth today. And while it will remain such for a while still.
America did not send a spy plane over China. It sent one into international airspace outside China. China would do the same if it had the technical capabilities to do so.
I am getting really angered at the american peoples overriding desire to support everyone in the world. If you are so damn supportive of the chinese you should move your butts over there and start working in thier factories. 14 hours a day for a few bowls of rice will teach you how bad you had it living in the terrible United States of American.
Yes this is a troll but you just get pissed of reading post after post saying "America should just apologize and get it over with." and "America is obviously wrong because they are bigger." and "Why is the US govt being so MEAN to the chinise."
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
There are rules as to how interceptions of aircraft are to be conducted. These rules are part of the ICAO treaty (International Civil Aeronautics Organization) China has signed this treaty. It is the responsibility of the intercepting aircraft (the Chinese fighters) to stay clear of the intercepted aircraft (the Navy plane) Also flying two aircraft in close vertical proximity is extremely dangerous due to the the interrelated aerodynamic forces (THEY GET SUCKED TOGETHER AND COLLIDE!) Once again, it is the responsibility of the interceptor to stay clear of the intercepted.
"3. International law and treaty (which China is a party to) hold that ALL nations have an obligation to give safe harbor and lend assistance to a disabled aircraft. Back in the 1980's, a Soviet spy plane had trouble and was allowed to land in Alaska. After it was repaired, the crew was allowed to leave, completely unmollested."
Turns out this only applies to civilian planes. Military planes are SOL.
Peace,
Amit
ICQ 77863057
[o]_O
Ring... Ring...
...well.. you seen one of our pilots, he was flying a plane near your border, and well... he got into a little scuffle with one of your fighter pilots.. just a little ... scuffle..
.. and you see our plane hit your plane, and your pilot seems to have crashed into the ocean, and our plane landed on your Island...
... now wait Jiang... hear me out now...
... listen Jiang... this isn't the time to be getting hysterical about a thing like this..
.. Look, I'm just calling to tell you something terrible has happened and ...
.. well of course I like to say hello.
.. not just now, but anytime Jiang.. it's just that now something terrible has happend and...
.. well you see, we want to give your air defense the flight path of our plane, so we can help you find the plane on that island of yours..
.. well yes I know they're our boys..
.. Yes, well I'm sorry...
.. of course I'm sorry...
... well, how do you think I feel about this...
... So you're sorry and I'm sorry... ok...
... we're both sorry...
GW: Hello Jiang, this is George... yes George Bush, President of the United States.
GW: Listen Jiang, would you mind terribly, turning down the music a little..
GW: Thanks... there.. that's better..
GW: How are you Jiang...
GW: Fine... Yes I'm fine too...
GW: So you're fine and I'm fine...
GW: Yes I agree... it's great to be fine..
GW: Now Jiang.. the reason for my call...
GW:
GW:
GW:
GW:
GW:
GW:
GW:
GW:
GW: Ok so who do we have to call.... yes.. the People's Central Air Defence Headquarters...
GW: Yes and where are they? In Shanghai.. ok
GW:
GW: Listen Jiang, you'll call them first will you.
GW:
Gw:
GW:
GW: Of course I'm sorry..
GW: Well, don't say that you're more sorry, cause I'm capable of being just as sorry as you are..
GW:
GW:
Up to this point, we(the US) have been uttering statements of "regret", with translates to "yihan" in Chinese, with is nowhere near a statement of apology, nor regret. They have been urging for a "dao quin", or a verbal kow tow. "dao quin" means "to say sorry". If Bush knew someone who was fluent in Chinese, he might try "bao quin" or "to hold sorry". It's more of a reflection of regret in Chinese, but none of the face-losing reverberations of a "dao quin".
Couldn't Bush just trade that EP-3 with China for Jon Katz? I'm sure the international community would approve that move. Send him in a work camp!
--
Je t'aime Stéphanie
All very well, but if the tables were turned, what would have happened?
What would the USA do if the chinese kept flying planes up the cost of California, just outside the territorial boundaries? What would they do if one of these planes came down at an American air-base?
That being said, the Chinese should have released the air crew within 24 hours, and I would assume (hope?) that they would have destroyed any codes or sensitive data before allowing anyone on board.
At absolute best(giving every benefit of every doubt) it was a poorly phrased attempt at satire or political commentary.
/., as such a humorous (controversial?) post obviously deserves to be at +5 (just witness the 30+ replies).
Ah, yes, the usual excuse. Huge numbers of people are taking the post seriously, not realizing it's a joke. Then at some point, everyone realizes it's a joke. Well, they can't admit they're stupid. So instead, they all say, "oh, well, it's a BAD joke.".
Now you're saying Jonathan Swift wouldn't deserve to be at +4, but rather, -1. Other people who are just starting to get the joke are saying "oh, well, Swift was funny, I KNEW that was satire" (because they were told it was satire in Lit class). And of course, there is the large contingent that will never realize it was a joke, because they fire off their stupid, knee-jerk, stereotypical anti-American responses (oh you Americans are all the same, at least all us non-Americans are all different-- "we're all different!" "I'm not"), and then move on to bitch about the next article that actually has the nerve to be about some neat bit of technology rather than an AIDS cure.
As for the original post being +4, and all of these staying in the 2 or lower dungeon-- it appears the mod system is the LEAST broken thing about
Maybe I'm just the eternal optimist, but I think that a lot of the "insightful" mods were done in the mood of the post-- i.e., in keeping with the satire. If you're about to read a bit of satire, and right at the top it says "THIS IS SATIRE", it's not very funny. However, if you go into it reading it as "+5, Insightful", it's really funny.
Am I giving the moderators too much credit? I'd prefer to isolate the stupid people to just the flamebait mods, it'd keep my world view a bit higher.
On a side note-- I see Overrated mods all over, but I've never once Metamodded one. What's the deal?
Oh, and don't forget the power that the Chinese now have over the AEgis destroyer arms deal with Taiwan.
--
Wooden armaments to battle your imaginary foes!
So does China not abide by international law? And what if the fighter had not crashed? Would China still be requested an apology from the United States for flying in their "200 mile" airspace? I think not.
--
Wooden armaments to battle your imaginary foes!
That being said, war sucks and should be avoided- because they can be no winners.
And as you allude to the situation in israel, do you think the people there on either side prefer the current state of war to the previous of peace?
And moreso, in the current age, where any large scale war immediately becomes a question of total annihilation, do you really think that desirable?
Sorry Jon, but I'm not sure you can call this an obvious accident. The US has been leaking information that leads us to believe that the Chinese escorts were dive bombing around it, while the Chinese are saying that the large, propeller driven plane suddenly swerved into the Chinese fighter jets. Until we actually know what happened, this whole thing is an exercise in diplomacy.
It's hard to assess blame in an unknown situation by those who are not intimate with the details.
I would have thought that it would be harder to compare International Politics to software, but I guess that's possible. :)
No, no, no. The pilot's name is 'Wang Wei' (as in Wrong Way in case some of you have yet to have the caffeine kick in) which is even worse.
BigCat79
BigCat79
"The dead have risen and are voting Republican!" --Bart Simpson
- U-2s are spy planes
- SR-71s are spy planes
P-3s are NOT spy planes. They're Patrol aircraft, designed for long-time loitering over water looking for submarines. This one had been fitted with radio receivers so that it could record transmissions. If anything, it could be called a surveillance plane, but not a spy plane.Well, thats what we're saying. If you read a Chinese Newspaper, they say very different things. The Chinese state that we were in their airspace, and that we made a sharp turn off course to hit their plane.
If you buy what our people are saying, we appear to be in the right. If the Chinese are telling the truth, obviously we owe them an apology.
I find both stories somewhat hard to believe. Do you really think we would be on autopilot flying so close to another plane? I find that very hard to believe. Likewise the pilot of the Chinese plane was said to be a daredevil who frequently performed stunts of various sorts to rile foreign pilots.
The likely story - both sides were playing a dangerous game of chicken in the air and collided. That's something that is embarassing to both sides, and I don't expect either to admit it.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
Ummm, honey, in a word, NO. First, the US plane was in International airspace, not Chinese. So, I suppose that the US does not have a right to fly in International airspace? Secondly, the Chinese have spyplanes which do the same exact mission, except that little fact isn't reported by the media. Third, the intent of the spyplane was to intercept communications. If the Chinese (or anyone) else doesn't want their communications which can be intercepted by planes in International airspace then the Chinese should invest in encryption technologies, shouldn't they?
Also, the penis does not unite cultures. I'm doubting that this crisis is being perpetuated by "male egos". This is a clash of East/West political realities.
This is another view of the world.
2. The plane is not spying. It is a marked U.S. military plane monitoring electronic signals over international water. Nothing spying there.
The hell they weren't spying. It was an electronic surveillance job... that plane was doing something like sniffing out Chinese air-search radars, so we could learn to defeat them better. Of listening for encoded military transmissions, so we could crack 'em and learn what the Chinese are up to. It's spying for sure, even if it is called "surveillance." We do the same kind of stuff from satellites. The Rhyolite SIGINT spy bird has some gigantic antenna array, and it can suck up a lot of transmissions from the target area.
That said I agree with the rest of your post. We WERE spying, but it was being done in a legal fashion, and I regard our crew as hostages now too.
... is Thomas Friedman of the New York Times, one of the mainstream journalists who "gets" the big picture of the internet and always has. Read his column today for a more balanced view of the motivations behind the current standoff.
"Luck is the residue of design" --Branch Rickey
Maybe our government is lying to us. Maybe we really were at fault. Maybe we invaded China. Maybe the two governments just fabricated this story to create a stronger sense of nationalism. Maybe China doesn't really exist, I mean, I've never been there. Maybe I'm trapped inside The Matrix and I just don't know it. Maybe none of you really exist and I'm the sole sentient being in the universe, but if that's the case, then who created this elaborate scheme to make it seem so real? Maybe I was just created mere moments ago, but I was given all of these memories so that it would seem like I'd been here.
If it's not so, then prove it.
Is that there are countries who still hold ill-will towards the US. And I'm not talking about the companies in the US, or about the economic superiority of the US. I'm talking about countries who would like nothing more than to see the US gone from the map of the Earth.
China is not a friend. They have proven this. We should end economic aid to them (Can you believe we're giving these dogs money?) We should end trade with them. We should throw out there diplomats and any other chinese nationals (including students). We should make holding those American citizens (All 24+1 of them) as painful as possible, and not let up until they apologize to us.
I demand a million helicopters and a DOLLAR!
An apology won't get anyone home, that has never been promised. It is likely to do the following:
-Open the door for further demands (no more flights near China, etc.).
-Embarrass the US ("The US will admit to anything if you grab a few people and make demands."), especially when it is obvious that China is more at fault in this case.
-Create (or increase) strong anti-American feelings in China ("See? The American scum admits to murdering our pilot!").
-Put the pilot and possibly some of the crew on trial for murder in a Chinese court ("How can you deny that you are responsible when your own government says that you are?").
This is why the US should not give in to China's demands. The Chinese government has demonstrated that it does not want to play nice with the rest of the world. It's time to let them sulk in the corner while the rest of us get on with our lives.
You say that as if no Americans or Soviets were ever accidentally killed during the cold war. Some of us are old enough to remember that the USSR/US relationship during that period was FAR MORE hostile than the current one between the US and China.
These are the facts:
1. China is (and wants to remain) a trade partner of the US. Continued trade is in the best interest of both countries
2. China has been a political rival of the US ever since Chairman Mao took over.
3. Political rivals spy on each other.
4. To avoid cold wars turning into hot wars, international rules and guidelines have been established for handling these situations.
5. China has chosen to ignore these guidelines, by damaging a US plane in international waters, forcing it to land in China, taking the crew hostage, and salvaging the plane for whatever secrets they can find. All of these actions ignore established treaties and protocols, none of the US actions can be faulted at this point.
As for the embassy bombing... We accidentally took out a French embassy in the 80's when we were bombing Lybia. Then, as now, we apologized for the incident, stating (quite truthfully) that any time you bomb an enemy, you risk damaging surrounding buildings which may belong to people you do not intend to attack. France has yet to take Americans hostage in the wake of that incident.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
We are not right because we are Americans, we are right because we did nothing wrong.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Yes.
One that throws its weight around at the UN to get the UN to serve its needs (bugger everyone else), and yet fails to pay its UN fees. Oh... you mean like the former Soviet Union. Or France? Or China? The UN is an institution which is mostly of Europeans, for Europeans, and of Europeans. We provide most of the UN's armed forces, but have very little say over where they are deployed (no more say that China has, for example).
Oh, so they have ICBM's targeted at your cities... oh thats really bad, I feel so sorry for you. Maybe its because you have ICBM's targetted at them?
Yes. I did not say they lacked the right to have their missiles targeted at us. I was pointing out that ANY country would be insane not to monitor a rival nation who has nuclear attack capability. That includes us, and them.
As for the last few lines of what you wrote, how about reading them and realising you are exibiting the same childish nonsense that the US as a country does.
It was meant to be funny. Shop around and see if you can afford to get a sense of humor.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Because of security reasons, etc. Military aircraft generally do NOT have black boxes.
Even if the hardware is all busted up and the drives been wiped. There is still alot you can do in data recovery with a government level budget and a lot of time.
Personally, I would have hoped that they were tossing things out the door into the ocean. Salt water is wonderful for electronics
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Sadly Chinese interests do have control in places like the San Diego shipyards, the Panama Canel, and even in the Bahamas. Given that and covert operations, the potential is there for things to get messy.
Some people speculate that the Chinese military wants a war with the US in a few years, just as a way to grab power and to short circuit certain internal problems due to poor planning of infra structure. Heck the military may want to get nuked just to help handle excess population, crule as that sounds.
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
That might be believable if the P-3 was a small, nimble plane. It's not. Please try again.
The Chinese are reacting to a zelous White House that spend the first 100 days to project an image of national toughness at the expense of China ( such an image would help Bush to run ahead with his runaway pro-corporate agenda, it will also directly justify more military pork). The problem is that China has a similar internal political dynamics, and it was just a matter of time until they reacted. The accident came in the right moment for them. It is used now by factions inside China to weaken the architects of economic reform.
-- look, cheese ahoy!
The *REST* of the planet is trying their damndest to get Madonna and McDonalds in their countries as fast as they can. The LEADERS in other countries have a ton of ideas about how the world should be run -- all of them bad. American doesn't want to rule the world, they just want to have a good time on Saturday night.
Which is better -- people who just want to have their Big Macs and Budweisers, or people who want to control the lives of every other person in the world for an idealized goal only definable by a handful of people?
Ill tell your friend, i have alot of capable and wise retorts for your arguments... but im too snapped on HoneyBrown & Keiths to bother. But your points above are very salient and interesting. Basically: I dont know. I dont propose to have the answers to all(most/some) of the answers, i believe i would like to be apart of the solution... whatever it may be. I have no problem suppporting "It".
If you have a good idea to provide for the happiness/welfare of *EVERYONE* im willing to die for it.... but lets get on with it, im tired of all this suffering. Im sad that others people are sick, hungry and angry. clal me an idealist but im really interested in peace, love and understanding. "No" im not kidding - dont you ever get upset about the futility and anger you have to deal with everyh day?
The US plane was in international airspace on autopilot, the Chinese fighter pilot got cocky and accidentally hit the US plane.
The China has said that the plane had entered their airspace - and the US plane suddenly changed course striking the fighter.
Who is telling the truth? I dont know (dont care*) but get off the high horse and try and be objective, 'officials' from China and US are acting bold, intolerant and stupid. The public will never *really* know what happened - we will just stick to whichever dogma we are pre-disposed to believe.
That is what makes Katz's article true; nation states and this fierce nationalistic dogma is absurd. And you have demonstrated it nicely.
The whole incident should never have happened - why the hell the Chinese and Yankees growling at one another? Who the hell gives them the mandate to waste resources, time and effort on acting like children - Ill tell you it isnt me, it isnt my mirror sitting in China now - its the Plutocrats, Warmongers and CEOs who seek keep us separated and always in conflict.
If you ask me, i think both sides are acting terribly - where is the connection to reality? Instead we get this bullshit pageant played out for jingoists the world over. Im tired of it - when the hell are we going to grow up/wake up and remove these idiots from office? What are the 'goals' of these people if this is the kind of way they act after an accident? Why wont the *f*ing media be responsible and present the issues in an effort to educate, inform and facilitate understanding and communication versus the "Our International Power (Dick) is Bigger than Yours" bullshit? This whole mess disgusts me.
* I do care that someone has had to die in this pointless cockup. Maybe we should resolve to 'protect ourselves' by not playing 'asshole of the monent' with high priced armaments... just an idea. crazy isnt it: lets dissolve all nationally controlled military forces and fund a UN Peacekeeping force instead. It would end conflicts regardless of who/how it serves specific interests. Because 'this' hasnt been done simply illustrates the true purpose of the military. This idea ought to get the Freeper types all in a tizzy, because they are the shitheads who lap up all this national posturing bullshit - and actually believe that the US military is meant to 'keep peace', its really meant to be the muscle behind the Plutocrats who run the country, and prop up their imperialism.
we should go back to the USSR and show those guys what we're made of
Oh man, we're too late for this one -- the USSR doesn't exist. I guess we'll just have to declare war on China twice, instead, huh?
-- dR.fuZZo
Your point that neither the American nor the Chinese statements represent the full truth is probably accurate.
However, the rest of your post is filled by pure speculation on your part. It seems there are at least four sides to this story: the American one, the Chinese one, mks113's unsupported speculations, and the truth. (And no, I don't pretend to have the truth.)
The American plane was flying in an area that the Americans claim is International airspace. The Chinese claim that it was Chinese airspace.
Even the Chinese ambassador to the U.S. admits that the incident took place in international airspace, according to this report.
Never take moderation advice from sigs, including this one.
No, even China's ambassador admits the collision took place in international airspace.
Never take moderation advice from sigs, including this one.
Look at it from the average Chinese person's point of view
Would that be the view before or after the tank rolls over the top of you for participating in a pro-democracy rally?
I do not have a signature
RE: I'm Canadian, and have had enough international experience to know
i cans trip.
Translation: I went hostelling in Europe once, but being Canadian, I'm a goddamned know-it-all.
We all know that China and the socialist Canadian government are in cahoots. The present PM is a disciple of Trudeau, who was a card-carrying member of the Communist party. Canadians are taught since birth to avoid conflict at all costs and capitulate to any unreasonable demand. I wouldn't trust Canada to have an objective view of this given Chretien's big crowing success speech on selling nuclear secrets to China on a "Team Canada" let's-get-business-in-Asia-cause-we-hate-the-amer
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
Not even economists are so cold-hearted as to base a decision to go to war solely on whether or not it will be profitable.
No relation to Happy Monkey
Dude, Where's My Spy Plane?
Sometimes The Hardest Word is "Sorry"
Enjoy.
Similar scenario: My wife's finishing up the laundry and I ask "is there anything I can do to help?" Of couse not and she knows it.
Does Jackson actually expect Bush to ask for his help? Of course not. But offering (or demanding) to help is a much better PR choice than letting the media continue to rip your reputation assunder.
Some cynical observers have wondered aloud whether Jackson is merely trying to repair his reputation and make another run for the coveted Father of the Year Award.
ridiculopathy.com
Uhh, Jon, that's the entire freaking point. China is using hostages to cause the US to lose face in East Asia. The audience for this whole mess is government officials in Vietnam and Taiwan, not whiny Americans who can't understand why we don't just kiss and make up.
I'm no Bush fan but at least he and his crew seem to be getting what the crucial issue is here. I shudder to think what would have happened with Clinton in power. By the way, anyone with the slightest clue about aviation knows who hit whom.
Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.
So why not apologize? Several international law experts have speculated that a formal, official U.S. acceptance of responsibility might give the Chinese a legal basis to stop the flights. This is somewhat more concrete than any notion of cultural pride, and it is an important consideration.
And it is true, the virtual state will continue to be a myth until the real states start to find common ground. Rogue states will be rogue states, Internet or not.
-db
Aside from that, I suspect that, as in other incidents of this nature, neither side is telling the whole truth. Maybe we should both apologize and go home.
*whup* "Get along, little electrons. Heeyah!"
Let's look at the big picture, apologise and get those soldiers home.
I love the smell of Karma in the morning
Knowing the kind of AA missiles (Alamos, Apex...) used by the Soviet Air Force at that time (Frontonava Avyatisha or something quite close), the pilot fired using a missile lauched from the "6 o-clock" position. That is, the soviet fighter got behind the airplane, saw the image of the 747 in the IFR viewer and launched the missile at 5 nm or less.
With IFR devices (thermal viewers) you can see the "bulged fusselage" of a 747 quite well. There's no other airplane like it.
Said that, I'm quite sure that the pilot really saw a 747, reported the 747 to the base and then he was ordered to fire. On a fighter, you are pretty much a puppet from ground control. Also, Soviet Rules and Tactics for missions were no flexible at all. So if the airpplane went there to launch a missile, it would launch the missile for sure. Whatever the airplane type was there. Even if there was no airplane at all.
Regards,
OpKool
According to articles here, here and here, it doesn't sound like the Chinese will be knocking on our door (with nuclear warheads or troops) any time soon. Given the current Chinese disputes with Russia, Japan, Malaysia and the Philippines (over islands) as well as mounting tensions with Taiwan, China is in no mood (or ability) to go to war. There will be plently of posturing, but this dispute is purely politics.
China has a lot to sort out internally before they are any sort of major military threat. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be regional conflicts that escalate (after all, that is how WW I got started), it only means that conflict between our two nations is unlikely. Do a little reading at Janes or other sites before rattling sabres. China has a long history of spying and tough talk (like the USSR, USA, et. al.), but they currently pose little threat.
If you want something to really worry about, start paying more attention to the escalation in the Middle East.
We have a turboprop plane at least 5 times the size of a fighter with waaay less power.
And then we have a fighter plane... light, built for manueverability and control for dogfights.
Tell me, who's the one who is responsible for hitting the other plane? The guys in the yacht cruising along nice and even like, or the guy in the fast little jet ski out hotshotting around?
It don't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
"You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas"
Sen. Davy Crocket to US Congress, Nov. 1, 1835
The same applies here. Assuming our gov't is telling the truth and the plane was in international airspace, since we've been um 'wrong' about that before :)
But seriously, some hot dog pilot brings down our plane and the Chinese decide to strip it? That's a $36 million piece of hardware. The Chinese caused this mess, they can pay for it. And they aren't gonna get a freaking apology - their pilot caused the crash (I mean how does a slow prop plane crash INTO a speedy fighter and lose its nose cone unless the fighter pilot pulled into the plane's path.)
I'm also tired of the US playing wimp. Screw the CHinese. Shut down our market to them. Period. Ban all imports from China and see how they like that. I don't care if I have to pay more for my kids toys. I'm tired of dealing with nations who sell goods to use hand over fist but block our products at everyturn.
The arrogance of the Chinese and blatant propaganda is a joke. To hell with them!
And I have a major beef with Jon's editorial. I'm tired of people always saying that the US is always pushing their vlaues on other countries. Why is it during times of crisis, we're expected to be the world's policeman, but during relative calm we're expected to butt out. Make up your mind. Either we worry only about ourselves and leave the rest of you to fight for yourselves or you get our help under certain conditions. DEAL WITH IT!
--
Top Most Bizarre/Disturbing Error Messages
I have heard no mention of the acceptability of the spying mission.
What's there to say about it? It was spying. We do it, they do it, even the birds and the trees...wait a minnit.
Every major nation's government has spies. They all spy on each other. They even spy on their allies. It's no biggie. The trick is to try to limit the amount of spying that someone can do on you without actually hurting anyone.
Just a few weeks ago the US expelled a dozen or so Russian spies. The Russians kicked out an equal number of US spies. Nobody gets hurt. Nobody gets held hostage. Everyone says, "Yep, nice caatch." And the next week another dozen Russian spies took the place of the deported ones here in the US (and vice versa). It's just part of the game.
The United States seems not to comprehend a tradition that places an enormous premium on honor, face, and responsibility.
Honor, Face and Responsibility are the basis of the US refusal to apologize!!!
Only in a posture of weakness would the US apologize for this Chinese caused incident. To maintain honor, and to NOT become subject to the whims of ANY terrorist state, the US must not kneel to blatent arm-twisting and whining.
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
The way he talkes, it sounds like he's on IRC all the time.
Bringing us to the point: What does all this have to do with the nature of virtual community and the effect of the extended communications capabilities on international politics and nationalism? Fuck all. Katz takes a complicated situation, spins it in a simplistic manner, and draws a dubious conclusion from the resulting mess. Nations exist because the human race controls vast and frightening powers of production, destruction, and health, and anyone not represented by a big gun is going to find themselves bowing to the barrel of someone else's. International disputes occur over issues of resources and power, and ideology is merely a distraction that dupes like Katz fall for because they're too lazy to do a little research. If ideas and a dozen lives were the only thing at stake in this little dispute it would already be resolved: nations are quick to abandon ideology when pragmatic concerns are at stake.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
With Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff
For the story behind the story...
Monday, April 9, 2001 11:46 p.m. EDT Pentagon Official: Chicom Pilot's Dangerous Manuever No Accident
Pentagon officials now believe that a Communist Chinese fighter pilot who crashed into the South China Sea after colliding with a U.S. reconnaissance plane nine days ago deliberately tried to disrupt the American plane's airflow, a manuever that could have sent the larger aircraft into a potentially fatal tailspin.
"It happened before," a senior Pentagon official told New York's Newsday on Sunday. In recent encounters, Finback fighter pilot Wang Wei "would get his wing close enough - his wingtip under our wingtip - to disrupt the airflow over our plane's wings."
The unidentified Pentagon official explained that the loss of airflow can lead a plane to "stall, twist or drop."
U.S. officials familiar with the surveillance operation, code named "Big Look," said the midair collision between Wang's plane and the EP-3E reconnaissance aircraft flown by Lt. Shane Osborne was likely caused "by Wang having stolen Osborne's airflow."
Instead of sending the U.S. plane into a tailspin, Osborne compensated for Wang's manuever by dropping his wing to regain airflow. In the process, the EP-3's wing hit the Chinese fighter, sending Wang plummeting toward the sea.
Navy investigators can't be 100 percent sure of the "disrupted airflow" theory until Osborne and his crew are released and can speak freely.
But months before last Sunday's encounter, U.S. intelligence and military agencies had identified the Chinese pilot as "a skilled stick and rudder man who could coax his supersonic jet down to the estimated 300 mph speed of Big Look."
The Pentagon source told Newsday that Wang was "known among Big Look pilots for trying to steal their airflow."
That's why Navy brass are privately fuming over China's demand for an apology - because they believe Wang deliberately tried to bring down the U.S. plane with the dangerous maneuver that ended up costing his own life.
This is not a case of both nations being at fault. The Chinese are provoking us so that they can appear to be in the clear when they attack Taiwan and it's 'evil big-brother' the USA. If people are buying into the Chinese rhetoric bullshit, they are not thinking very clearly. George W is really wussing out on this one. And damnit, I helped vote him into office! I knew this was the one thing (his weak China policy) that would come back to bite us all in the butt.
The future as I see it seems clear to be dominated by China. It will become a 'King Khan' state, with an economy 5 times larger than that of the USA by the year 2020. However, because it will be focusing on building up its infrastructure and improving its people's quality of life, we should see the rate of technological advance in the world slow down. America is already hugely in debt to the far east, which contains the world's biggest creditor nations. All it takes is a blip for america to spiral into recession whil China steams ahead.
Many in the world will be wary of this new power, but it is well known that China is a much more outward looking nation that america historically speaking, and far less insular. It also does not have territorial ambitions, beyond claiming back its old lands, like Taiwan. Therefore life under a Chinese superpower should be relatively peaceful. The chinese do not send spyplanes over America, and ar far more relaxed and informed on world affairs.
I for one welcome our new leaders to be.
"Second to none when it comes to macho military posturing, the U.S. can't say it's sorry for the accident and bring everybody home. Various grim-faced U.S. officials, from the President and Vice-President to the Secretary of State, have been rushing around in their big black limos, and issued guarded expressions of concern and sadness, but nobody can quite bring himself to say the magic words. "
Being macho may or may not have something to do with it, but it is not the sole reason, nor even the main reason. If the U. S. were to apologize in the manner that the P. R. C. wants, not only will we be saying "I'm sorry I hit your plane," but also "I'm sorry we flew flights over your water." After all, there shouldn't be any problem in flying such flights through international water.
If the South China Sea isn't international water (which the P. R. C. has been claiming for decades), this leaves a lot of other people wide open to be "collectivized" or "assimilated" or whatever you want to call it. "You see? The U. S. even admits that it's our water, so then they also agree we own the Spratley Islands." (For those that don't know, the Spratleys are a resource-rich area of the world that's been claimed by at least five nations). This could worsen the water disputes between the P. R. C. and Vietnam (two nations that have already been to war once). This could even affect islands as far away from China as the Philippines.
Scroll to the bottom of this page for more information on the complexities of this corner of the world.
The news is focusing on the crew of the airplane, and maybe on the airplane's technology, but the big issue between the politicians is really the water the plane was flying over. If this were in the Yellow Sea (between the Korean penninsula and mainland China), this wouldn't be anywhere near as big an issue.
If you feel that we should say those "magic words" and more or less abandon that part of the world to a known oppressive and expansionist government (who's to say that they'll stop at the South China Sea? They haven't stopped with Nepal, Kashmir, Taiwan, Vietnam, and it took the Soviet nuclear arsenal to convince them not to spread north as well), then you can go ahead and play the isolationlist game. Just remember that that's exactly what the U. S. was doing at the beginning of both world wars.
US should at least apologize for not apologizing, "I'm very, very sorry, but we're not apologizing".
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
I've also read speculation that the E3 contained a "magnetic pulse" weapon, which may have been used to "discourage interception" by enemy fighters, and might have been a little TOO effective.
Yes, yes, and then there's the speculation (obviously not written by a pilot) that the Chinese pilot was attempting to spill fuel onto the EP3, and then set it off with his afterburners.
Before deciding if you want to give any creedence to speculation, you should ask a couple of questions, first of which would be:
1) Who would benefit from doing things that way?
The US wouldn't benefit from shooting down an intercepting Chinese jet unless that jet were going to fire, and if they were going to fire they'd have done so with a missle, not by playing lawn darts with an expensive airplane.
The odds are that the Chinese jet suddenly going down with complete electrical failure for no discernable reason would result in both an escalation of the crisis in progress, and some very unwanted attention after the fact, especially when the Chinese recovered their black box. If we have such a weapon (and I'm not speculating either way about that) the pilot would have to be a complete idiot to have used it in this situation.
This is especially ridiculous if you consider all the film of other similar events, which clearly show that the damn Chinese fly within meters of our airplanes every time they pull this crap, which is exactly WHY our pilots leave their planes on autopilot, so that an accidental flinch doesn't result in an international incident.
-
Whether or not you agree with either side in this situation, with regards to boundaries, spying, emergency mayday landings, or whatever, it's hard to simply look at China and say "so what."
The rhetoric that comes out of their country is largely overlooked in the US. Many of their leaders (political, social, military) have spoken openly of their expectations that the US will become a "has been" in the coming century. That China will, essentially, become the dominant force in the world -- economically, politically, socially, and militarily. They see it as their "Manifest Destiny," somewhat like we Americans saw the West as our destiny just over a hundred years ago.
Add to this mindset the fact that the political leadership took a lot of heat after their response to our accidental bombing of the Chinese embassy in the Kosovo conflict, and the fact that Bush took a lot of heat during the Florida election mess, and you've got two very powerful leaders who, honestly, can't afford to look weak.
Now I can be just a knee-jerk as anyone. I'm amazed that we haven't recalled our ambassadors, declared the crew hostages or prisoners, or tried to push a resolution through the Security Council (which, if I'm not mistaken, would be quickly vetoed by China anyway -- *there* is a useful body). Hell, I'm amazed that we haven't even scaled up our presence in the waters nearby the island. It'd be great, both from a nationalistic and idealistic standpoint, to see a team of marines airdrop on the island, rescue the crew, and airlift the plane out (just try dogging MiGs when you're hanging a spy plane from a heavy-lift helicopter). But what would that really accomplish? We could probably win a War with China. But is it worth trying?
Bottom line: As much as I want to see these guys released, yesterday, and as much as this posturing seems crazy, remember that we're dealing with a BIG powder-keg here (after all, where was gunpowder even invented?), and the Chinese are more than ready to fight back for what they believe, most likely sincerely, is unfounded US aggression.
Real bottom line: This scares me. It should scare everyone. The really scary part is that it isn't scaring people as much as it should be.
(a good reference: China Debates the Future Security Environment - US GPO (out of print) -- 600 quotations from various Chinese authors since 1994 -- Defense Dept, National Defense University)
...In his naive and simplistic view of the situation is that China is upset over Gore losing the election. Clinton, etc, were doing everything they could to give China what it wanted (not that administrations prior to his were necessarily much better). They could roll tanks over students with impunity and know that they would retain MFN trading status with the U.S. (after all, the U.S. needs cheap Adam Sandler Underoo's and Barbie Do-It-Yourself Navel Piercing Kits, etc). They could intimidate Taiwan (our sworn ally) by test firing missiles at them and know that at worst there would be a little mumbling and hand-wringing from the U.S. but no real response, since the Clinton administration's position appear to be the Taiwan belongs to China, period.
So what are they going to do? Make Bush look bad by putting him in a really tough situation and forcing him to either look (and be!) weak, by apologizing for China's incompetent fighter pilot, or looking like a warmonger by refusing to back down to clear aggression and escalating a diplomatic incident. Regardless of what he does, a large portion of the country will criticize Bush, because like Clinton, there is a large portion of the population who hates him irrationally and will never give him credit for anything.
Remember, the Iranian hostages were also referred to as "detainees" at first.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
I'm very sorry that the state of the world has come to this, but I can't trust anyone enough to base an opinion on any facts presented so far in this incident. This is exactly what the Internet was supposed to SOLVE, but instead has made worse.
I'm American, and I sympathize with American interests. I think China is very dangerous because of their immense population, their hardline political stances, and their history of human rights violations/suppression. I'm not saying we should get into a war with China, and I'm not saying China should change to adopt our culture. Rather, I'm saying that the current situation demands a VERY delicate manner when dealing with China on foreign relations, because we strongly disagree with them on many things. Now, we've basically handed them 24 American armed forces to use as leverage so that the Chinese government can gain political power. It's as simple as that.
On the other hand, the U.S. is pretty arrogant, and that clouds the issue entirely. Specifically, we don't know what the government really knows, and we don't know what the media really knows. Since they would have the most reliable sources for the happenings of this incident, we should be able to find out exactly what happened and what needs to be done from them. But we can't trust them, not only to have a realistic opinion on the issue, but also to present the facts in an unbiased and truthful manner. We may very well be entitled to say MORE than sorry.
My gut instinct says that China is more likely at fault in this particular situation than the US, but the fact that I can't trust the facts means that I can't say that I have an informed opinion. All I know for sure is that the planes actually crashed and that the Americans are being held captive for the time being.
Now, of course, the Internet was supposed to be able to help us in these cases by being an improved provider of information in a timely, honest manner. But what happened? China filters all of their Internet access, which leads me to believe that there's nothing but propaganda on their side of the network. Over here, the media, rather than wait for news to be accurate and well-developed, chooses instead to report ANYTHING the second it comes in off the news wire. The whole Dale Earndhart tragedy/autopsy situation, the presidential elections, and even the news coverage of the Oscars are perfect examples of that... we're told things in stages as they come in. But almost none of it is verified as much as it is rushed out the door, making basically every media outlet another Matt Drudge. Plus, it's like having a scrap of the newspaper delivered every five minutes as it's progressively typed. But more importantly, it's starting to have a reputation for being unreliable... not to mention biased (read some news stories about Napster and ecstacy on Yahoo! to see what kind of one-sided treatments some of these news stories get sometimes).
Of course, people have always went for cheap, flashy, and fast in this country. It baffles me that more people eat at McDonalds still than Boston Market, especially considering the price of the meals at both places is somewhat similar. The Internet is no exception... people prefer big dumb web-portals to well-organized useful information sites, even though portals go out of business because they basically don't have much of a business to start with.
Perhaps if we just bombed all of China to get those pilots back on the first day of this "incident", everyone in the US would be happy and we would have avoided this whole mess. I'm not saying it would have been the proper thing to do (far from it); it just would have kept everyone fat and happy as usual. Bush's popularity would have been way up, just like his father's was after the Gulf War. Lots of cool TV footage of bombs going off, pictures of jet planes taking off, soldiers marching in, blah blah blah. Americans love that shit. They turn out in droves for the war victory parades. They like to see fireworks. It's fucking disgraceful.
My only hope is that the youth get sick of seeing fireworks at an early age and get bored with it all... and start pursuing more sensible priorities just because they're sick of "TRL" for the millionth time. That would be great.
Some history about George Herbert Walker Bush, which may shape thoughts about his son, America's current President.
Bush the First was Envoy to China, doing what he could to avoid UN recognition of an official Peoples Republic of China, counter to Kissinger's willingness to deal with then-600,000 people as one unified-under-Communism sovereign country.
Bush Number One was the Chairman of the Republican National Committee. He asked Nixon to resign that fateful August, to spare the party a shred of dignity.
Bush Sr. then moved to Direct the CIA, mopping up the Watergate damage with trinkets, junkets, and some good old-fashioned spy-bustin'.
This should give you a clue as to where Bush #2 may be getting his opinions: the family looks out for Republicans First, and thinks China's leadership must be cracked.
That said, this is the only thing Bush Jr. and this Congress has done so far that I'd agree with. In order of importance: (1) stress the importance of the crewmembers, (2) the Chinese' failure to follow international standards in return of citizens and sovereign vehicles, (3) the fallout this will have on Favored Nations trading status for China. The Congress could still wimp out and give MFN again, but I'm hoping they'll stop kowtowing to the Great Bear here.
[
Highly unlikely. The US plane was on autopilot, which means the pilot could not make such a maneuver.
--
Lord Nimon
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
I'm a private pilot; not military.
But by FAA rules, size of aircraft is not a factor in determining right of way. For fixed wing aircraft with neither under distress, the vehicles are considered equivilent (there are distinctions drawn, but only when adding airships, gliders, etc. to the equation).
For a situation where one aircraft is overtaking another, the vehicle being overtaken has the right of way. But one could use this to draw stupid scenarios. For example, the chinese fighter could move ahead of the P-3, and then decelerate. In that case, it would be the responsibility of the P-3 to avoid the fighter (by passing to the right, if we're going to stay pedantic {8^).
See FAR 91.113.
But this is really silly. A few months ago, I was on a collision course with another aircraft. I had the right of way. But he wasn't moving (likely hadn't noticed me).
I avoided him.
I'd rather that than argue ROW rules to death.
Of course, the Chinese pilot was already violating FAA rules. Specifically, 91.111.b states that formation flying requires arrangement with each of the involved pilots.
This troll should never have been moderated so high, clearly slashdot is still highly american biased. None the less...
It's a joke, goddammit. It's Dr. Fucking Strangelove, ported to a new decade. The real problem isn't "American bias", it's ultrasensitive kneejerk-posters like you who are so concerned that someone might be serious about a point of view different from yours, that you don't even bother to read the entire post.
For all your "objectivity", you seem so hell-bent on fixing Americans' view of themselves that you're living in a completely distorted reality-- one in which the original post was alive during the war of 1812. Wow.
I am getting really angered at the American peoples overriding desire to support everyone in the world. If you are so damn supportive of the Chinese you should move your butts over there and start working in thier factories. 14 hours a day for a few bowls of rice will teach you how bad you had it living in the terrible United States of American.
Make no mistake: Its like this in China *BECAUSE* you live so well in the states. Do you think people are lying when they tell you about how absurd American Consumer culture appears to the rest of the world? how about pollution - do you think its a lie that America is the main offender when it comes to the items the Kyoto Protocol is trying to address? Do you think the rest of the world feels you are imperialist warmongers - but we are *all* wrong about it?
Make no mistake friend, America is enjoying a good position in history at this moment, but they are by no means a testament to 'good decisions' or a model of a 'good culture'. Raping the planet, using your military to defend business interests, meddling in foreign affairs coupled with the good fortune of never having a war on your own soil - this soulnessness and ruthlessness is what put your culture at the top of the 'wealth' pile... nothing more. But I believe the latter cause would teach US citizens a great deal about where their priorities should be. You'd be surprised I bet about how adamant the citizens of the country would be about universal health care, social programs and environmental/social issues if their little 'pop culture utopia' were ever destroyed by a war on US soil. USian frivolity and hubris is beyond ridiculous approaching the surreal.
US of America would be well served to find some Tolerance, Understanding and Community - when you look at your culture's 'wealth' you may be surprised to find it is actually the most bankrupt in the things that matter. The rest of the world has some very different priorities than to slave to make a few people rich (as USians seem to do) - maybe this is why the rest of us dont have as many material good - ever think that you dont need all that crap to be happy?
The only problem is that USian greed has reached the point where they must infect the rest of the planet to continue to grow/exploit - and rest assured, the *REST* of the planet has *VERY* different ideas about how the world should be run... and many USians are even beginning to agree.
The real problem here for the politico's lies in the fact that the age old practice of "villification" won't work here.
Usually in the past when confronted with a situation or crisis, we can point to specific incidents which stir the American public to believe that the other side is at fault, that they are treating Americans unfairly, and basically, make the job of standing on firm ground alot easier on them (even if its not particularly the correct position).
In this case, however, we are left with a deplorable situation where both sides made mistakes, both refuse to accept that fact, and there is no clear villan.
Was the United States spying on its trade partner and at least tenous friend, China? Yes. However, China has been guarded in its criticism of the purpose of the plane, considering their own espionage efforts against the United States.
Were the Chinese planes perhaps flying unsafely close to the American plane? Well, until a statement by the pilots is released, or flight logs seen, we wont really know. However, there has been acknowledged evidence in the past by multiple countries that China's pilots aren't exact the best in the world, and they tend to intercept at extremely close ranges.
Are the Chinese being unfair? Yes, in the fact that (at least as far as I can read), they haven't issued their apology for dangerous interception practices. However, post-incident, they have been extremely low-key and even gracious towards the situation. Their "prisoners" are being treated well by any standards and its not as if they are threating military action for this situation.
Is the United States being hard ass? Yes, and mostly due to political climates and military attitudes than due to lack of culpability. Now, dont get me wrong. I WANT a macho armed forces. But I also want one that can admit their wrong (considering many top leaders still believe in the Vietnam effort, perhaps I'm being naive here.)
See? No clear winners and losers. That makes taking a clear stand neigh impossible. Which is uncharted waters for both countries diplomatic corps, who usually follow a political and philosophical dogma which is, at least to them, unimpeachable.
"Moving through the masses like a fish through water." syrup
Same thing for boats as well as airplanes: Big vehicle has the right of way. Period. Secondly, the average cruising speed of a MiG-21 is around 800 miles an hour, compared to the 348 MPH of the P-3 Orion based craft. WTF were they doing sooo close? Furthermore, what is this "violation of international law" that the Chinese officials keep yapping about? Other than "right of way" in international airspace, what about the "Vienna Convention on Consular Relations" (to lazy to imbed link) http://fletcher.tufts.edu/multi/texts/BH444.txt which I do beleive gives US the right to visit detained miltary personel.
Either the US or China should declare war on the other, already. I'm sick of this crap.
It used to be that countries would declare war on each other because of petty rivalries between dukes and princes. Now, it sometimes takes an act of god to get them to go at it. How stupid is that?!?!
We're spending billions of dollars (a big chunk of our GDP) on national defense. And we never even use it! We shuffle our troops from base to base, sure, and we log our mileage and tally our days in service and hang our medals. But do we ever do anything productive? Do we ever kill anyone? Of course not.
Is it because we can't anymore? Bullshit. It's because we're afraid to. It's because we've let ourselves get castrated by the liberal media and their doomsday predictions about what might happen if one nation accidentally steps on the toes of the other.
Are we the world's largest superpower or what?!?! Is Bush to big a chump or is he just a pansy?!?!
If we don't start declaring open war on countries that disrespect our sovereignty, then foreign countries will think they can get away with pissing us off. Can you imagine FDR or Eisenhower letting the Chinese hold our American soldiers hostage like this? We haven't seen crap like this since Jimmy Carter, and let me tell you, those were some pretty sad days.
We must settle for no less than outright war. They think they have the upper hand now, but wait until we give it to them old-fashioned American style. They probably don't even have all those nukes they keep whispering about. Have we ever seen them detonate one? Well have we? NO! They don't exist.
Once open war is declared, our economy will boom. It'll be the answer to our recent economic downturn. Look at how WW2 pulled us out of the Depression. And look at how much more expensive modern equipment is. More expenses mean more contribution to our economy and our GDP. That means more funding for the military. It's a positive feedback loop.
And when we're done with China, we should go back to the USSR and show those guys what we're made of. We never bombed them for the U2 incident all those years ago, so it's time we showed them what for. That's what distinguishes the men from the Canadians.
That's very true, especially considering previous incidents with the same pilot. Supposedly this isn't the first time this pilot acted like an idiot. Apparently he pulled this same stunt on another flight, getting so close to the other plane that the american pilots could read a sign he was holding up to the window with his e-mail address written on it.
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
Xinhua News Service has the official ChiCom party line on this incident and assorted other things. The site reads like an American parody of Communist "journalism". Funny as hell, in a pathetic sort of way, particularly their descriptions of the acrobatic moves our big, slow, prop-driven aircraft can do. Of course, they don't *mention* that they're big, slow, prop-driven aircraft...
Netcraft says they're running Netscape-Enterprise 4.1 on Solaris, alternating with Apache/1.3.6 on Solaris. So much for Red Flag Linux.
Anyhow, if you want to know what the Chinese people are being fed, there y'go.
The US plane was in international airspace on autopilot, the Chinese fighter pilot got cocky and accidentally hit the US plane.
The US plane was in distress and landed at the nearest airfield, which was the Chinese base.
Seems to me like the Chinese should apologize for the hot dog pilot.
later, thermo
Many people are incredulous that such a row is made over a simple apology. I'm incredulous that they could be so clueless.
An apology in diplomatic matters such as these is the same as pleading guilty to a criminal offense. By apologizing, Bush would be proclaiming to the world that the spy plane should not be there in the first place, that the fighter pilot had the right to be buzzing an American plane in international air-space, and that China would have free go to continue such behavior in the future.
Yes we want our people back, but they are soldiers. They have sworn an oath to die for their country if called upon. An apology now, even to save their lives, would make it much more dangerous for military personnel patrolling in international waters around our eastern allies. At any point in the future, China, who is reported to have growing international ambitions, could scuttle any of our vessles and just say, "Now apologize."
Bush hasn't apologized yet. He should not. He should make it clear that the US will not be bullied. He should state the case clearly that the Chinese pilot is at fault here, and make it clear that the US will continue to spy on countries around the world from international waters. He should then demand the return of the crew and reparations for the aircraft, with threats to cut off all diplomatic relations as his club.
Anything else is giving in to a bully and will only lead to more pain in the future.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
The peace between China and the US has never been one of mutual friendship; it has always been one of strained political ties in order to reap the economical benefits. Thus, America aided China in becoming more economically stable, and China provided the sweatshops for American industry.
Something you must understand, Katz (make your time!), is that Communism is the arch enemy of Commercialism, in the eyes of the US and the eyes of China (and other Communist countries). This makes the US the sworn enemy of China. You simply can't keep going around spouting your idealist slashdotist ideals - they're cultish and removed from reality. Please correct this.
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CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
On behalf of all Americans, let me say that I am sorry.
I am sorry that we dared to fly a plane in international waters without your permission. We will be sure to check with you next time.
I am sorry that we were trying to keep an eye on a communist dictatorship who has ICBM's targeted at our cities. I don't know what we were thinking.
I am also deeply sorry that we crashed into your ran into your little fighter jet with our big, lumbering 4-prop spy plane. I'm sure that the jet pilot had absolutely no chance of getting out of the way, and the accident is entirely our fault.
Oh yes, and I would like to apologize for any inconvenience caused by the trouble of holding 24 of our people. Please allow us to reimburse you for all the food that these freeloading hostages have been eating at your expense.
Lastly, let me assure you that the next time we hold a vote over Most Favored Nation status for China, and when we vote about China's admission to the WTO, and when China is considered to host the 2008 Olympics... I sincerely promise you that we will, at that time, say "fuck off and die you damned red commie bastards!"
I hope this apology makes our feelings clear.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Here is what I see:
The American plane was flying in an area that the Americans claim is International airspace. The Chinese claim that it was Chinese airspace. The conflict was not about where the plane was, but about who Really owns it.
The US plane was intercepting electronic communications originating in China, i.e. spying.
The chinese know damn well what they are doing, and don't like it, but the americans are sufficiently outside the recognized territory, that they can't do much other than make sure the american know that they know.....
The Chinese pilots shadowing the E3 were hotdogging, as fighter pilots are prone to do.
The americans decide to teach the fighter pilot a lesson and do a little wing waggle or the like to give him a scare. Nobody here has ever had the temptation to pull on their car's emergency brake while some idiot is tailgating, right?
The American public, due to cultural reasons and media induced propaganda won't stand for an apology, as it was obviously solely the responsibility of the Chinese pilot. I have heard no mention of the acceptability of the spying mission.
The Chinese public, due to cultural reasons and government induced propaganda won't accept anything less than a full apology. They hold the cards, they can push a little.
Both sides have a tremendous amount to lose by pushing this too far. It appears to me that it is stretching the governments control on the whole issue now that the population and media is getting pretty worked up. So far the American government has been trying not to inflame public opinion, which they could easily do. The Chinese government is doing their best to inflame public opinion (or so we are led to believe).
My guess is that the Fighter jock was trying to scare the bejesus out of the americans, and the americans reacted somewhat predictably.
I expect to see the Americans move closer to the apology that the Chinese want, get the crew and plane back, then launch a full fledged propaganda war, still being carefull not to damage trade too much.
An interesting situation to follow, but lets try not to get too worked up about it. Wars have started over less, and we don't need any more of those!
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If someone shot down my wang, I'd want an apology too.
I love the smell of Karma in the morning
To the great and all wise leaders of the People's Republic of China. My country, The United States of America, has done you a great harm. Since my foolish leaders have not apologized for the latest airplane incident, let me do it on behalf of the American People . . .
I'm sorry that no other country in the world recognizes that as China airspace.
I'm sorry that this particular pilot flew so close on previous occasions that our pilots could get his email address.
I'm sorry that you took no corrective action when we complained about this pilot before.
I'm sorry that you think that a turbo prop plane the size of a 737 can hit a fast, highly manueverable MIG fighter on purpose.
I'm sorry that you think that the US can give an apology without an inquiry first, by fully debriefing the crew or reading the flight recorders (black boxes) to gain an accurate picture as to what has happened.
I'm sorry that your air traffic controllers ignored the pilot calling "mayday - mayday".
I'm sorry that you are holding 24 Americans as hostage, and have violated american sovereign territory by boarding our plane.
Furthermore,
I'm sorry that you have killed millions of your own people in your cultural revolution and great leaps forward.
I'm sorry that you persecute religious minorities such as the Fulan Gong, Christians and Muslims.
I'm sorry that you feel you can impose your will on the people of Tibet and Taiwan.
I'm sorry that you regularly detain scholars who disagree with your policies.
I'm sorry that you use prison labor and export those products to my country.
Please note our sincere regrets and we humbly await your gracious forgiveness.
Make no mistake: Its like this in China *BECAUSE* you live so well in the states.
Balderdash -- it's like that in China because of the Chinese, not Americans. Bob and Martha aren't forcing the Chinese to use slave labor, but they'll take advantage of it if the Chinese make it available. As will the Russians, the Vietnamese, the Japanese, even the Kenyans.
You don't like the American consumer culture -- that's fine. In fact, I'll join you in casting dispersions on it. However, I will not allow you to make distortions of the truth.
Raping the planet, using your military to defend business interests, meddling in foreign affairs coupled with the good fortune of never having a war on your own soil.
Unmitigated nonsense -- "raping the planet" is a nice phrase, but not true. Americans make a mess, sure -- and we're the only country to clean up after ourselves. If you don't believe me, go eat some Cherynobyl vegetables or take a nice long drink out of the Volga.
Using the military to defend business -- this beats hell out of using the military to keep you and your cronies in gold lame' PJs (a la Danny Ortega).
And we had a pretty damn bad war on our soil -- the Civil War killed more Americans than any other war.
The only problem is that USian greed has reached the point where they must infect the rest of the planet to continue to grow/exploit - and rest assured, the *REST* of the planet has *VERY* different ideas about how the world should be run... and many USians are even beginning to agree.
Yep -- there's always one fox who thinks they should stop burrowing because it makes life so hard for the hounds.
The *REST* of the planet is trying their damndest to get Madonna and McDonalds in their countries as fast as they can. The LEADERS in other countries have a ton of ideas about how the world should be run -- all of them bad. American doesn't want to rule the world, they just want to have a good time on Saturday night.
Which is better -- people who just want to have their Big Macs and Budweisers, or people who want to control the lives of every other person in the world for an idealized goal only definable by a handful of people? Your answer will define you better than anything else.
"Beware by whom you are called sane."
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
The American reluctance to apologize for this incident isn't just stubbornness. There are real diplomatic reasons not to apologize here.
First and foremost is China's imperialistic stance toward the China sea. We claim the aircraft was in international airspace, but China claims it was in their airspace. The reason we disagree is because China claims the Paracel islands, which would increase their airspacea good 500 miles into the China sea. No other country in the world recognizes China's claim to those islands, and Vietnam and Indonesia also claim them. If we were to apologize, the US would be officially recognizing China's claim to these islands.
There is also the matter of blame for the accident, which in diplomatic circles carries real responsibility. The US could be forced to pay reparations for the fighter plane and the missing pilot if we apologize, regardless of whether or not we caused the incident. Failure to do so will harm the US's status at the UN, and further cement China's claim on the China sea.
This incident was an accident, and we should not apologize.
Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
Or maybe it's simpler. International diplomacies often seem to have the undercurrent of grade school recess. But the truth is, if our country appears to have weakness in the eyes of China, this could be taken as a sign of weakness, which will negatively impact future dealings. The political climate in China is complicated and (as I understand it), partially under the control of military interests.
I think the US government is aware of this, and is aware of just how important it is to deal with this situation correctly.
Sure, to those of us on the outside, it seems like an idiotic impasse. Just say you're sorry and no harm done, or is there?
While I admit our government doesn't often act in global best interests, and has become increasingly self-centered in recent years, I'm not willing to judge them on this manner. The emerging political dynamic between the US and China is extremely complex and this incident is going to be very influential in shaping our relations for years to come.
Maybe it's a sad state of affairs that countries can't just apologize and be done with it, but it's the way things are, and there are legitimate reasons that things are this way.
2) The internet will not democratise China. The internet will not democratise China. The internet will not democratise China. Say it with me again, Katz, the internet will not democratise China. There are far too many inroads into China for western culture, but the internet is the smallest and easiest controlled. Wonder where those "billions" of dollars are going on "infrastructure"? I'd bet a pound to a penny you could get a good Echelon-type system together for even one billion...
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
During the cold war, a Soviet spy plane (spying on America from International waters) had to make an emergency landing in Alaska.
How did we handle this? Did we snoop around in the plane? Detain the pilots as hostages? Demand an apology from the Russians?
No. We refueled their plane and sent them on their way.
I think that answers your question.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
What I don't understand is why so many people say that this is clearly the US's fault, and that the US should clearly apologize? From just about every news source I have read, military experts from around the world say that the chinese scenario of the EP suddently swerving into the smaller and faster chinese jet is ridiculous.
The pilot of the particular jet has even had a history of doing hotshot manuevers such as coming up from beneath the splyplanes directly in front of them, giving them a jolt--a move perfected by the soviets originally. So we have a slow lumbering jet on AUTO-PILOY! and a small, limber, and fast jet being flown by a hot-shot--where do you think the fault lies?
The US has offered to help look for the downed pilot--the offer of help has indeed been extended several times, and has been rejected several times by the Chinese government. If they really cared about the downed pilot, wouldn't they want all the help they could get--I know I would? Instead they criticize the US government being too cowardly to apologize. Apparently having the US kowtow to Beijing is more important than the life of their downed man. But of course they also work the Chinese public up to frenzy over him, thanks to the Xinhua government owned news agency and other propaganda machines.
So in short, I see no reason for the US to apologize for an accident that almost definitely wasn't their fault, and especially to a government whose actions reek of insincerity and sheer politicing as much as those of the communist chinese do.
Scott
I don't think Mr. Katz has a full understanding of the facts.
1. This incident occured over 60 MILES from Chinese territory. The international boundry by treaty is only 12 miles out from shore! So the US plane was clearly in international airspace, where it had every right to be.
2. Trying to hit a fighter jet capable of Mach 2 flight with a lumbering DC-3 like prop plane (planes like the "spyplane" were used for NY to DC air service back in the 1950's!) is rather like trying to deliberately hit a speedboat with a sailboat. It just doesn't happen, unless the pilot of the jet plane either did something foolish (which Wang Wei, the pilot in question, has a documented history of being a hot dog) or else the pilot of the jet was in such a position that the prop plane pilot could not see him or detect his location.
The very fact that this incident occured SOLELY because of the interference with the US plane by Chinese jet planes, in international territory, would lead any logical peson to the conclusion that the fault must certainly rest with the Chinese.
Just as in the laws of sea navigation, it is incumbent on a powered craft to steer clear of a sailing craft, jets have to avoid prop planes that are nowhere as fast or manuverable.
3. International law and treaty (which China is a party to) hold that ALL nations have an obligation to give safe harbor and lend assistance to a disabled aircraft. Back in the 1980's, a Soviet spy plane had trouble and was allowed to land in Alaska. After it was repaired, the crew was allowed to leave, completely unmollested.
4. China is, without any legal, ethical, or moral cause, holding 24 American servicepeople hostage, according to ANY treaty that has ever been ratified by both the US and China.
China is messing with forces that it does not understand, being that their government is incestuous, closed, autocratic in nature. They are lucky that our govenrment so far has been VERY leniant and been going out of it's way to inflame the wrath of the American people.
However, if China does not release the hostages soon, this will change, and leave the control of our own government. And China needs our markets to sell their goods to far more than we need to allow our wonderful and patriotic corporations the bility to export factories and jobs to their slave labor market.
Americans react poorly to Americans being held hostage. As well we should.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance