That wretched little bird you continue to foist upon Slashdot is an insult to the American Eagle and everything it, and the Eagle of our Comrades south of the border, stands for. And it adds little to the deplorable stream of commentary originating from your venue.
"Microsoft beat Novell, with shittier products, shittier security, shittier everything. This what decision makers see."
True enough. And whose decision(s) caused this to happen?
I am a shitty writer. I meant the decision makers see only the "Microsoft beat Novell" part, and then, just buy Microsoft.
"...unfortunately has nothing to do with being a leader in the market space you operate in.
Then what does?
Marketing skill and persistence, I think. Your technology does not have to be as good as your marketing skill and persistence for the America to buy it repeatedly.
I Don't know who you are It would be of little interest
but I do know this your arguments should carry their own weight and they don't.
Novell is an outstanding organization technologically, but they are not doing that well in the marketplace, respect-wise or dollar-wise. They are embracing Linux to try to get back in the game, which may work, but still remains to be seen.
These are facts which carry their own weight and are worthy of discussion in light of the SuSE acquisition.
These are not Novell technologies, nor are they perceived as such. These are things Novell just bought, and everybody knows it.
Technically, they haven't even bought SuSE yet, so why are you listing this.
There is water that must pass under the bridge with the Ximian developers community. Will Novell make it happen positively. Will it succeed? Make money?
Excuse me while I remove the helmet and asbestos suit..
That was my thought too. SuSE owns the zSeries s/390 space these days. I've never seen anything other than SuSE 7 or 8 installed on the dozen systems I've got to work with.
You got to work on these??!! Awesome, need any help? wink wink!!
I heard there are some serious contracts in the works for server consolidation using the s390. But the details of these are seldom public, and I guess these are pretty much all IBM contracts.
Like you say SuSE has it covered. Their 64bit AMD platform is going to just kick ASS.
SuSE however has been abysmally bad at marketing itself to America. I've been an ardent supporter since 5.x, buying every pro version as it appeared and rolling it out where ever I could. Remember when they had shit in their manuals like "if hacker takes over your box we cannot feel responsible" man the translations were hilarious.
OT your last sentence was a twist on was it a.. Chinese curse? "May you live in uniteresting times." ?
Having excellent engineering, being first to market with this or that, having a superior implementation of directory services, etc, etc, etc, unfortunately has nothing to do with being a leader in the market space you operate in.
Microsoft beat Novell, with shittier products, shittier security, shittier everything. This what decision makers see. The first question they're going to ask are: "What does Novell know about Linux" and "shouldn't we go with a proven leader in Linux?" (read IBM or RHat).
What you fail to realize is they have no new sales, only support for exisiting installations, and that's not gonna make it. Companies using eDirectory now cannot migrate away from it even if they wanted to.
You haven't used much netware have you ? I worked on earth's largest NDS tree, Citibank, for two years. I admin'ed Netware 3.12 servers in five US cities before that. Backed up Netware volumes across the WAN using Linux at the time. Don't be fucking insulting when you don't know who you're talking to.
I can't think of any working server that compares with netware for uptime
You haven't used much Unix, have you?
What Novell is known for is reliability What Novell was known for is reliability. How reliable is a company whose server market share went from upper double digits to ONE PERCENT?
This is a tremendous push forward for Linux in general. This is a tremendous push to confuse Corporate CIOs. The first question they're going to ask is: "What does Novell know about Linux?"
The Corp IT public doesn't trust you all that much, and you've already got a lot of explaining to do.
Novell is regarded by Corporate IT as a pretty confused (although formerly mighty) company. But definitely regarded as one who let their flagship server platform kind of... die. They let their flagship directory services get overly complex and.. die. They bought several other companies that they also kind of let.. die. So Novell is respected, but not trusted. What Novell product would you roll out today? I can't think of one.
Now two years ago a sudden interest in becoming part of the Linux movement, "enabling" people.
I am sorry to see that SuSE did not try for the American market on their own - I think they could have made it - they have great engineering and commitment - everyone knows their support of KDE but does everyone here know that between 1995-1997 they supported XFree creation of video drivers with lots of time and money - when this process was in its infancy - I'm talking about the days here when you had to have one of 5 or 6 specific cards to run X decently?
I am guessing that SuSE thinks Novell can help them into the American market because of their contacts and longevity. I think SuSE could have done better - I don't get it - they are already working with IBM on s390 platform!!
Netware Linux is an oxymoron and it smells. I am sorry to see that SuSE has done this, and could not go it alone in the U.S. market. Novell has been looking for a way to stay alive now for over three years, and has jumped on the Linux bandwagon pretending they were part of the team from way back which is -bullshit- they're just opportunists..
I've been a SuSE user since 5.2, buying the Pro version every release. If SuSE does get bought by Netware, it will change their culture, Americanize it. And for this I'm sorry.
I'm familiar... I've followed this stuff for a long while. I don't use Gnome either, not for the dCOM reasons you discuss, but because there seems to be a certain layer of confusion surrounding its development, and frankly it felt wierd and amateurish, though I'm sure that's just me. Development progress was slow. Mixing Enlightenment in makes it complicated. And, Linus Torvalds doesn't like it. I never bothered to install it more than just casually in the past.
And even though KDE is architecturally cool, and of course, it isn't really LIKE windows like you say, its freekin widgets get in the way of my productivity. Something's wrong if you're always wanting to get menus, toolbars and pop up shit out of the way:) So I use windowmaker and blackbox.
I always thought it was "Mono" as in "singular", but now I can see it's "mono" the Spanish word for monkey. Is there a message in that?
I do not understand Miguel de Icaza's thinking - I've read interviews last year where he explains what he's doing and why. I guess it boils down to he believes the.NET architecture is fantastic, allowing the platform-independent road into the future for all of us. The part I don't understand is that.NET is Microsoft, he knows that, and Microsoft is the devil, so he's working with the devil, hoping the devil plays ball for a while, and when looking at the devil's track record the first thing you notice is the devil has fucked the little guy every single time.
Even if that shit was fantastic, I don't want a monkey OR a footprint on my desktop. Besides, M$ may just eat Ximian later by purchasing it, obviating their technology, and winning the customers Ximian worked so hard to get. And their VC investors would love that all the way to the bank.
The public is becoming somewhat aware. I remember the seeing topic on TV nightly news recently, and Oct 31 CBS news covered it, Diebold was mentioned..
Why, sure it does - Browser doubling as a file manager, start button, task bar, system drive icons on the desktop, you can drag a URL string from the browser or file manager somewhere else like onto the desktop to create a link (or dare I say SHORTCUT). Out of the box it looks like Windows, unless you re-theme it. Ok, right, not the underlying architecture using QT - we weren't really talking about the underlying architecture - discussion was more about end-user adoption.. I agree the QT choice was excellent.
Hey - the Gnome stuff I didn't know was so similar to COM. Suspicious, suspicious..
I actually read your second post earlier, and agree about the time sink part of figuring out all these desktop environments... which is why I use Windowmaker. It's super fast to install, replace, configure, and theme (this took not too much time).
Linux on the desktop exists as an entity, because it's marketed as one Only by C/NET, Gartner, ziff davis, and the other sheep of the IT press and analysts. When Linux people talk about "Linux on the desktop" I've always understood it to mean the state of the desktop environments/window managers I mentioned before. If someone said "Mac on the desktop" they'd get called on the distinctions - it's not a semantics argument - the facts do matter here.
If you ask Red Hat or SuSE if there is Linux on the desktop, they'll say it's what they sell. As for SuSE- they bundle many "desktop" options in the X section of the distro. If you want to buy a ready made solution they have the SuSE Desktop, but if you don't buy that, they certainly are not pushing any one "Linux desktop" on you.. RedHat chose Gnome, but neither company is forcing the desktop down your throat. You don't have to install the default distro, at least on SuSE it's easy to make your own install.
DRM as it presently works does not prevent you from playing MP3 files Maybe you were thinking of another thread, I didn't say that. The DRM stuff in the resale of music and other content as implemented by MS and Apple, is something to remain watchful of, because it is crossing the line of fair use without a full disclosure to the consumer. The situation is just about to get out of hand and being watched by eff fair_use_and_drm.
I can't sneak Macs into my company because they are so expensive,... This is true even though I experience the PC's crummy TCO every day.... the Mac will always be a minority because it's more expensive than the cheapest PCs. Cheap PCs may not be the best ones, but they're the ones that sell.
The Mac "sell" on the part of its advocates in the corporate/office environment has always failed. In the past, I've supported Mac groups at Citibank New York, 25 G4 based developers in a New York dot com, while simultaneously supporting and deploying Windows*. The windows platform always turns out to be/extremely/ expensive to maintain - dollars, time, loss of productivity, and wasted emotional energy. We'd see more Macs around if Mac proponents were able to use these facts to good effect.
Linux has given IBM flexibility to deliver on multiple platforms. I heard the IBM 10,000 new hires figure about 2 weeks ago - my first thought was most of these bodies will be used to convert IBM clients to Websphere (running on Linux) here in the U.S. This means sales, PMs, design, engineers, support, you name it. And I'm hearing this from folks who IBM is selling to.
Offshore hiring usually has centered around software development projects and outsourcing of support desks (as opposed to direct server/middleware sales to US corporations)
I thought Intel was the one who last proclaimed moving a couple thousand US jobs to another country...
Linux on the desktop seems to have done its best to imitate Windows on the desktop
Another poster tried, but let me clarify.
KDE looks and acts like Windows. This is the reason a lot of Linux people don't like it or use it, myself included.
Gnome also looks like Windows at first, but less so. Lots of cool things going on in Gnome, all not very Windows-like.
XFCE, Blackbox, ICEWM, and Windowmaker look nothing like windows nor do they act like it.
"a pale imitation of Microsoft" would be inaccurate when describing these projects.
We should not speak of "Linux on the desktop," because no such single entity exists. There are, instead, many different projects providing desktop environments supported across not only Linux but the BSD family. And these vary from simple GUI+little functionality to full enviroments with internal protocols, etc.
While the visible desktop portion of MacOSX is very inviting from both aesthetics and functionality viewpoints, OSX has other problems which I believe will slow its adoption by the general user base (the not-so-technical who are beginning to care about issues like privacy+computers, years of Microsoft security failings, the DMCA, and notice that some countries are adopting Open Source Software as a mandate):
-Large portions of OSX is proprietary software. Fine: but so often it's touted as an open platform.
-The DRM architecture in iTunes is really no different than M$ DRM (more eloquently stated in another post )
I remember reading that Bitkeeper was chosen since a lot of the Linux kernel contributors raved about it. From what I understood, Linus T. was somewhat indifferent about release engineering methodologies, and was open to using what everyone else wanted.. hence the question was more: what functionality does it offer (as opposed to is it OSS or not).
IIRC the earliest reference to this issue is ESR's letter to Linus wherein he accused him of using his Inbox as a patch-queue.
I had the same thought, but I would imagine the working setup would be a little more secure than I believe you meant:
-Student would be logged in at a station, and submit a job which, if approved, would be sent off to another machine and queued for processing at the master node.
-Job results would end up at the user's home directory, or users will mount their job directory on a rendering NAS where the finished jobs end up. Of course it would be more complex than this -- but the user should be able to log off after submitting the job, and pick it up later as desired. Abandoned jobs are just removed after n days..
I think this is a tremendous gift, the students will go farther than they could have earlier, it fosters creativity. Also a great way to re-use this hardware.
If some of the ideas in the post you linked struck a nerve with you, and it sounds like they might have, why don't you log in under a real name and say what's on your mind?
I just read the link you posted to the "webmin" comment.
Although my heart goes out to the original poster, bless his soul, it's the moderators I'm worried about. Everyone who moderated that post either Interesting or Informative should have their testicles removed to ensure that the disease goes no further. Actually I think Ashcroft's working on a USA PATRIOT Act improvement addressing this very issue. That way we wouldn't need a warrant. Just go in, castrate, ask questions later.
Slashdot Mirror
That wretched little bird you continue to foist upon Slashdot is an insult to the American Eagle and everything it, and the Eagle of our Comrades south of the border, stands for. And it adds little to the deplorable stream of commentary originating from your venue.
uh sorry, Tourettes. The bird is cool.
...you have a company a with ~5% OS marketshare writing software for another OS...
and trying to remove "another OS"'s user's choice in music applications by disabling software already installed and configured on that user's system.
The only software Apple should be replacing on a Microsoft (or any other OS) install is previously installed Apple software.
Apple is perhaps more evil than Microsoft; they just don't have the market share yet.
"Microsoft beat Novell, with shittier products, shittier security, shittier everything. This what decision makers see."
True enough. And whose decision(s) caused this to happen?
I am a shitty writer. I meant the decision makers see only the "Microsoft beat Novell" part, and then, just buy Microsoft.
"...unfortunately has nothing to do with being a leader in the market space you operate in.
Then what does?
Marketing skill and persistence, I think. Your technology does not have to be as good as your marketing skill and persistence for the America to buy it repeatedly.
Microsoft has gotten the Ed. crowd the way Apple did years ago.
Holy God man do you want to get yourself completely kicked off of Slashdot??
Seriously, this situation has been pissing me off for years
I Don't know who you are
It would be of little interest
but I do know this your arguments should carry their own weight and they don't.
Novell is an outstanding organization technologically, but they are not doing that well in the marketplace, respect-wise or dollar-wise. They are embracing Linux to try to get back in the game, which may work, but still remains to be seen.
These are facts which carry their own weight and are worthy of discussion in light of the SuSE acquisition.
SuSE, Ximian Desktop, Evolution, and Red Carpet?
These are not Novell technologies, nor are they perceived as such. These are things Novell just bought, and everybody knows it.
Technically, they haven't even bought SuSE yet, so why are you listing this.
There is water that must pass under the bridge with the Ximian developers community. Will Novell make it happen positively. Will it succeed? Make money?
Excuse me while I remove the helmet and asbestos suit..
.. Chinese curse? "May you live in uniteresting times." ?
That was my thought too. SuSE owns the zSeries s/390 space these days. I've never seen anything other than SuSE 7 or 8 installed on the dozen systems I've got to work with.
You got to work on these??!! Awesome, need any help? wink wink!!
I heard there are some serious contracts in the works for server consolidation using the s390. But the details of these are seldom public, and I guess these are pretty much all IBM contracts.
Like you say SuSE has it covered. Their 64bit AMD platform is going to just kick ASS.
SuSE however has been abysmally bad at marketing itself to America. I've been an ardent supporter since 5.x, buying every pro version as it appeared and rolling it out where ever I could. Remember when they had shit in their manuals like "if hacker takes over your box we cannot feel responsible" man the translations were hilarious.
OT your last sentence was a twist on was it a
Having excellent engineering, being first to market with this or that, having a superior implementation of directory services, etc, etc, etc, unfortunately has nothing to do with being a leader in the market space you operate in.
Microsoft beat Novell, with shittier products, shittier security, shittier everything. This what decision makers see. The first question they're going to ask are: "What does Novell know about Linux" and "shouldn't we go with a proven leader in Linux?" (read IBM or RHat).
I am not being rude, I am being realistic.
I must have helped four separate corps in Manhattan migrate away from Novell in 2003. I don't think I was alone..
What you fail to realize is they have no new sales, only support for exisiting installations, and that's not gonna make it. Companies using eDirectory now cannot migrate away from it even if they wanted to.
You haven't used much netware have you ?
I worked on earth's largest NDS tree, Citibank, for two years. I admin'ed Netware 3.12 servers in five US cities before that. Backed up Netware volumes across the WAN using Linux at the time. Don't be fucking insulting when you don't know who you're talking to.
I can't think of any working server that compares with netware for uptime
You haven't used much Unix, have you?
What Novell is known for is reliability
What Novell was known for is reliability. How reliable is a company whose server market share went from upper double digits to ONE PERCENT?
This is a tremendous push forward for Linux in general.
This is a tremendous push to confuse Corporate CIOs. The first question they're going to ask is: "What does Novell know about Linux?"
The Corp IT public doesn't trust you all that much, and you've already got a lot of explaining to do.
... die. They let their flagship directory services get overly complex and .. die. They bought several other companies that they also kind of let .. die. So Novell is respected, but not trusted. What Novell product would you roll out today? I can't think of one.
Novell is regarded by Corporate IT as a pretty confused (although formerly mighty) company. But definitely regarded as one who let their flagship server platform kind of
Now two years ago a sudden interest in becoming part of the Linux movement, "enabling" people.
I am sorry to see that SuSE did not try for the American market on their own - I think they could have made it - they have great engineering and commitment - everyone knows their support of KDE but does everyone here know that between 1995-1997 they supported XFree creation of video drivers with lots of time and money - when this process was in its infancy - I'm talking about the days here when you had to have one of 5 or 6 specific cards to run X decently?
I am guessing that SuSE thinks Novell can help them into the American market because of their contacts and longevity. I think SuSE could have done better - I don't get it - they are already working with IBM on s390 platform!!
Netware Linux is an oxymoron and it smells. I am sorry to see that SuSE has done this, and could not go it alone in the U.S. market. Novell has been looking for a way to stay alive now for over three years, and has jumped on the Linux bandwagon pretending they were part of the team from way back which is -bullshit- they're just opportunists..
I've been a SuSE user since 5.2, buying the Pro version every release. If SuSE does get bought by Netware, it will change their culture, Americanize it. And for this I'm sorry.
Ahhhh. Maybe because you're an editor here...
...called Mono."
.NET architecture is fantastic, allowing the platform-independent road into the future for all of us. The part I don't understand is that .NET is Microsoft, he knows that, and Microsoft is the devil, so he's working with the devil, hoping the devil plays ball for a while, and when looking at the devil's track record the first thing you notice is the devil has fucked the little guy every single time.
I'm familiar... I've followed this stuff for a long while. I don't use Gnome either, not for the dCOM reasons you discuss, but because there seems to be a certain layer of confusion surrounding its development, and frankly it felt wierd and amateurish, though I'm sure that's just me. Development progress was slow. Mixing Enlightenment in makes it complicated. And, Linus Torvalds doesn't like it. I never bothered to install it more than just casually in the past.
And even though KDE is architecturally cool, and of course, it isn't really LIKE windows like you say, its freekin widgets get in the way of my productivity. Something's wrong if you're always wanting to get menus, toolbars and pop up shit out of the way:) So I use windowmaker and blackbox.
I always thought it was "Mono" as in "singular", but now I can see it's "mono" the Spanish word for monkey. Is there a message in that?
I do not understand Miguel de Icaza's thinking - I've read interviews last year where he explains what he's doing and why. I guess it boils down to he believes the
Even if that shit was fantastic, I don't want a monkey OR a footprint on my desktop. Besides, M$ may just eat Ximian later by purchasing it, obviating their technology, and winning the customers Ximian worked so hard to get. And their VC investors would love that all the way to the bank.
The public is becoming somewhat aware. I remember the seeing topic on TV nightly news recently, and Oct 31 CBS news covered it, Diebold was mentioned..
CBSnews.com link ---
On Edge Over E-Voting
KDE neither looks nor acts like Windows.
Why, sure it does - Browser doubling as a file manager, start button, task bar, system drive icons on the desktop, you can drag a URL string from the browser or file manager somewhere else like onto the desktop to create a link (or dare I say SHORTCUT). Out of the box it looks like Windows, unless you re-theme it. Ok, right, not the underlying architecture using QT - we weren't really talking about the underlying architecture - discussion was more about end-user adoption.. I agree the QT choice was excellent.
Hey - the Gnome stuff I didn't know was so similar to COM. Suspicious, suspicious..
I actually read your second post earlier, and agree about the time sink part of figuring out all these desktop environments... which is why I use Windowmaker. It's super fast to install, replace, configure, and theme (this took not too much time).
... This is true even though I experience the PC's crummy TCO every day. ... the Mac will always be a minority because it's more expensive than the cheapest PCs. Cheap PCs may not be the best ones, but they're the ones that sell.
/extremely/ expensive to maintain - dollars, time, loss of productivity, and wasted emotional energy. We'd see more Macs around if Mac proponents were able to use these facts to good effect.
Linux on the desktop exists as an entity, because it's marketed as one
Only by C/NET, Gartner, ziff davis, and the other sheep of the IT press and analysts. When Linux people talk about "Linux on the desktop" I've always understood it to mean the state of the desktop environments/window managers I mentioned before. If someone said "Mac on the desktop" they'd get called on the distinctions - it's not a semantics argument - the facts do matter here.
If you ask Red Hat or SuSE if there is Linux on the desktop, they'll say it's what they sell.
As for SuSE- they bundle many "desktop" options in the X section of the distro. If you want to buy a ready made solution they have the SuSE Desktop, but if you don't buy that, they certainly are not pushing any one "Linux desktop" on you.. RedHat chose Gnome, but neither company is forcing the desktop down your throat. You don't have to install the default distro, at least on SuSE it's easy to make your own install.
DRM as it presently works does not prevent you from playing MP3 files
Maybe you were thinking of another thread, I didn't say that. The DRM stuff in the resale of music and other content as implemented by MS and Apple, is something to remain watchful of, because it is crossing the line of fair use without a full disclosure to the consumer. The situation is just about to get out of hand and being watched by eff fair_use_and_drm.
I can't sneak Macs into my company because they are so expensive,
The Mac "sell" on the part of its advocates in the corporate/office environment has always failed. In the past, I've supported Mac groups at Citibank New York, 25 G4 based developers in a New York dot com, while simultaneously supporting and deploying Windows*. The windows platform always turns out to be
*(I don't do this anymore, just unix).
I misread the thread - my apologies!!
Linux has given IBM flexibility to deliver on multiple platforms. I heard the IBM 10,000 new hires figure about 2 weeks ago - my first thought was most of these bodies will be used to convert IBM clients to Websphere (running on Linux) here in the U.S. This means sales, PMs, design, engineers, support, you name it. And I'm hearing this from folks who IBM is selling to.
Offshore hiring usually has centered around software development projects and outsourcing of support desks (as opposed to direct server/middleware sales to US corporations)
I thought Intel was the one who last proclaimed moving a couple thousand US jobs to another country...
Hi,
Linux on the desktop seems to have done its best to imitate Windows on the desktop
Another poster tried, but let me clarify.
KDE looks and acts like Windows. This is the reason a lot of Linux people don't like it or use it, myself included.
Gnome also looks like Windows at first, but less so. Lots of cool things going on in Gnome, all not very Windows-like.
XFCE, Blackbox, ICEWM, and Windowmaker look nothing like windows nor do they act like it.
"a pale imitation of Microsoft" would be inaccurate when describing these projects.
We should not speak of "Linux on the desktop," because no such single entity exists. There are, instead, many different projects providing desktop environments supported across not only Linux but the BSD family. And these vary from simple GUI+little functionality to full enviroments with internal protocols, etc.
While the visible desktop portion of MacOSX is very inviting from both aesthetics and functionality viewpoints, OSX has other problems which I believe will slow its adoption by the general user base (the not-so-technical who are beginning to care about issues like privacy+computers, years of Microsoft security failings, the DMCA, and notice that some countries are adopting Open Source Software as a mandate):
-Large portions of OSX is proprietary software. Fine: but so often it's touted as an open platform.
-The DRM architecture in iTunes is really no different than M$ DRM (more eloquently stated in another post )
-Cost.
>since Torvalds has begun using Bitkeeper
I don't see anyone mentioned this yet.
I remember reading that Bitkeeper was chosen since a lot of the Linux kernel contributors raved about it. From what I understood, Linus T. was somewhat indifferent about release engineering methodologies, and was open to using what everyone else wanted.. hence the question was more: what functionality does it offer (as opposed to is it OSS or not).
IIRC the earliest reference to this issue is ESR's letter to Linus wherein he accused him of using his Inbox as a patch-queue.
I had the same thought, but I would imagine the working setup would be a little more secure than I believe you meant:
-Student would be logged in at a station, and submit a job which, if approved, would be sent off to another machine and queued for processing at the master node.
-Job results would end up at the user's home directory, or users will mount their job directory on a rendering NAS where the finished jobs end up. Of course it would be more complex than this -- but the user should be able to log off after submitting the job, and pick it up later as desired. Abandoned jobs are just removed after n days..
I think this is a tremendous gift, the students will go farther than they could have earlier, it fosters creativity. Also a great way to re-use this hardware.
If some of the ideas in the post you linked struck a nerve with you, and it sounds like they might have, why don't you log in under a real name and say what's on your mind?
I just read the link you posted to the "webmin" comment.
Although my heart goes out to the original poster, bless his soul, it's the moderators I'm worried about. Everyone who moderated that post either Interesting or Informative should have their testicles removed to ensure that the disease goes no further. Actually I think Ashcroft's working on a USA PATRIOT Act improvement addressing this very issue. That way we wouldn't need a warrant. Just go in, castrate, ask questions later.