Mind boggling, really? For me, 300 MPH is mind boggling... my mind would absolutely boggle if I could get up to that on the freeway. Mind boggling is really not a term that belongs in a Slashdot summary. It doesn't tell us much. Our minds are sufficiently boggled by matter travelling at relativistic speeds, thank you, could you please say it that way? Oh I forgot, the editor just cut and pasted this from the original article, which was aimed at knuckledraggers.
Mind boggling, really? For me, 300 MPH is mind boggling... my mind would absolutely boggle if I could get up to that on the freeway. Mind boggling is really not a term that belongs in a Slashdot summary. It doesn't tell us much. Our minds are sufficiently boggled by matter travelling at relativistic speeds, thank you, could you please say it that way? Oh I forgot, the editor just cut and pasted this from the original article, which was aimed at knuckledraggers.
I have many words to describe Intel but incompetent is not one of them. I guess they could make a nice ARM chip but they are afraid to do it. To maintain their share price they need both a huge share of the market and a gross profit in the range of 60% as they still command in their monopoly Wintel business. Looking at the trend for Qualcomm isn't encouraging, their gross margin is trending down, currently around 55% and likely to go lower in the face of robust competition from the likes of Samsung. And it can get worse fast... what happens when some monster Chinese manufacturer introduces its own ARM offering, or Amazon? It's going to happen.
AMD could move (back) into the ARM business for the counterintuitive reason that they aren't encumbered by massive profits and therefore not as beholden to shareholders, but there is this weird dynamic where Intel holds the price of X86 parts artificially high for both of them, which tips the balance in favour of staying right where they are.
...the same one being deployed against prominent racists to limit their visibility... only conservative Republicans appear to be affected and not liberal Democrats
Hmm, any chance there could be a causal relationship?
Apple is trying to get their own chip to market so that they don't have to give money to intel or AMD. Good luck to them, though. The number of architectures has been shrinking for a reason, and that reason is that amd64 has won.
X86 has won the battle but most probably not the war. Nothing technical stops ARM from invading X86 space at increasingly high performance points. When X86 tries to invade the low power space, its complex instruction set bites hard because that big chunk of die that decodes it (don't understate this, it is a good chunk of any modern x86 chip) eats battery power and takes up space that could be used for more cores or more integrated system components. In the long run ARM is going to catch up with X86 in single core throughput and clobber it in cores per dollar, thus winning the war. X86 will be relegated to a sliver or the market in a legacy role. ARM is already roughly tie with X86 in total ops/sec already shipped and ahead by an order of magnitude in units shipped.
The most competition produced the best products and now there's no reason for anything else to exist but amd64 at the high end and arm at the bottom.
Mostly agree, but IBM shows no signs of giving up on Power arch and System Z for its big iron. Also, the high high end segment keeps getting smaller and I think we will pretty quickly hit a situation where ARM and X86 are sharing it, and only legacy effects keep ARM out of the Windows sector. Most probably, my next laptop will be ARM based, maybe a repurposed Chromebook running Linux.
And so sad for intel, they have no arms. They had strongarm->xscale, but it didn't xscale down in power consumption so it got its ass whipped by arm implementations which did and now intel has nothing but some insecure-by-design antiques that it has to rehash.
But maybe I'm wrong and apple will manage to make an arm that can compete with amd64 on highly parallel workloads. Most creative tasks are highly parallelizable, which was how Apple managed to retain their professional user base during the powerpc era. The primary processing unit in the G4 is limp even by the standards of the day, but there was a fast vector coprocessor in there, and content creation apps could be accelerated by it. It's therefore not impossible, only unlikely.
Intel's sun is starting to set, I really can't think what they should do about it. But it's setting slowly, there are still many billions to be had out of the old Wintel cartel. Intel won't get into ARMs simply because they dread cannibalizing their own x86 market. It is just not possible to command the same margin for an ARM part as Intel has become accustomed to in its monopoly segment.
So, you think that this fiasco is not because of Apple management panicking and forcing a impossibly short timeframe on engineering, so best practices practices were tossed to the wind? See, everybody else who offers Intel's 8 core part puts it in a realistic enclosure. Apple management seemed to think they could wave a magic wand and change physics.
AAPL stock is treading air for the moment by relying on sucking an ever increasing amount of money from its steadily diminishing market slice. If you want an idea what could go wrong with that, look at 2008 wheb AAPL tanked by more than half because everybody decided at the same time that they better not risk their disposable income on nonessentials.
For now, AAPL support relies on an unbroken ten year runup of the economy, that encourages diehard fans to replace their products frequently and sink a lot of money into accessories and overpriced apps they don't really need, but that could turn south any time. Then guess what happens to this graph. Are you a betting man? Want to load up on AAPL today, hoping that Trump's worldwide trade war doesn't suddenly dry up the carriage trade?
We don't need any 2008 style worldwide meltdown to trigger that scenario, just a standard recession, which is overdue.
If Apple held the parts back longer for testing, people would bitch about how Apple's offerings are behind their competition.
And people would be right in both cases. The underlying problem is, Apple management consciously decided to let the PC offerings rot because that revenue is shrinking while handset revenue is growing. However little sense that makes, that's what they did, then one day they suddenly woke up, saw they needed the PC revenue to make the next quarterlies, and panicked to the extent that best practices were thrown out the window in the rush to catch up from a place they never should have been in.
"It was actually Intel's fault. They didn't change the TDP for the 6-core CPUs."
The i9 SKU was intentionally designed to have the same TDP as the 4-core i7 SKU.
Not changing the TDP isn't a mistake, it's the entire point. None of the MacRumors articles you link to support your implication that not changing the TDP was a fault.
Not changing the TDP isn't a mistake, it's the entire point.
But the TDP did change and Intel evidently lied about it. Come on. In which universe does a 4 core part have the same TDP as an 8 core part, other things being equal?
The VRM bit is an important part of the story, but it's not the only important part. We also learn that i9 does not operate inside its published thermal envelope, otherwise no competent engineer would have wiffed the thermal design so badly. Intel lied, Apple didn't verify, marketing jumped the gun on both sides. It's a circus.
What was the chain of missteps that enabled what can only be called an engineering fiasco?
* AMD's high performing 8 core Ryzen's selling like hotcakes, Intel gets envy.
* i9 rushed to market
* The reason Intel didn't release an 8 core desktop processor in the first place: sucky thermal envelope, and no time to fix the process
* Marketing solution: lie about the power envelope in the spec sheet
* Apple getting shade for obsolete laptop lineup just as PC market showing signs of life
* Apple rushes Macbook refresh to market
* Apple engineers believe Intel's specs, design the VRM too small.
* Apple project manager telescopes the project by cutting out the QA stage
* First production units show significant issues
* QA fudges the problem resolutions for team player reasons
* Product already shipped to retail, just got to cross fingers and hope for the best
* Unhappy customers are not fooled
* Oops.
See, it starts with Intel's well known process issues then envy and hubris take it from there. Apple should pull this product and re-engineer it. Dump the remaining stock for a discount as befits the low performance. Apologize for the mistake. Next one should be AMD.
Apple isn't going to do any of that. "You're holding it wrong."
Apple's fix: replace thermal throttling by software throttling. Result is still a slow computer. But the problem is, the design just can't handle the thermal envelope. Just don't buy this defective product.
You're a PHP fan. To you, the only important measure of competency is that somebody loves or hates a computer language. Do you understand what is meant by "dogs watching television?" Nuff said.
I took a brief look through your post history and it's inconsistent. In one post you're recommending something, in the next you're saying its shit. No substance to any of your comments, just a lot of pointless, arrogant text. You are the idiot here.
I don't think you've ever been paid to write a single line of code in your life.
Wait... you don't understand any of those posts? How do you know that you are not the idiot? Consider... It's a PHP thread. You are in it. You did not understand a thing that competent developers say. Possible clue?
Working with PHP written by bad developers is a shortcut to being a better developer. You can see everything a language can do wrong, and everything a developer can do wrong, and then you learn to do the opposite.
Supposing you do become a better developer, do you intend to spend the rest of your career wallowing in bad PHP code? Didn't think so.
Slashdot Mirror
Mind boggling, really? For me, 300 MPH is mind boggling... my mind would absolutely boggle if I could get up to that on the freeway. Mind boggling is really not a term that belongs in a Slashdot summary. It doesn't tell us much. Our minds are sufficiently boggled by matter travelling at relativistic speeds, thank you, could you please say it that way? Oh I forgot, the editor just cut and pasted this from the original article, which was aimed at knuckledraggers.
Mind boggling, really? For me, 300 MPH is mind boggling... my mind would absolutely boggle if I could get up to that on the freeway. Mind boggling is really not a term that belongs in a Slashdot summary. It doesn't tell us much. Our minds are sufficiently boggled by matter travelling at relativistic speeds, thank you, could you please say it that way? Oh I forgot, the editor just cut and pasted this from the original article, which was aimed at knuckledraggers.
I have many words to describe Intel but incompetent is not one of them. I guess they could make a nice ARM chip but they are afraid to do it. To maintain their share price they need both a huge share of the market and a gross profit in the range of 60% as they still command in their monopoly Wintel business. Looking at the trend for Qualcomm isn't encouraging, their gross margin is trending down, currently around 55% and likely to go lower in the face of robust competition from the likes of Samsung. And it can get worse fast... what happens when some monster Chinese manufacturer introduces its own ARM offering, or Amazon? It's going to happen.
AMD could move (back) into the ARM business for the counterintuitive reason that they aren't encumbered by massive profits and therefore not as beholden to shareholders, but there is this weird dynamic where Intel holds the price of X86 parts artificially high for both of them, which tips the balance in favour of staying right where they are.
...the same one being deployed against prominent racists to limit their visibility... only conservative Republicans appear to be affected and not liberal Democrats
Hmm, any chance there could be a causal relationship?
Apple is trying to get their own chip to market so that they don't have to give money to intel or AMD. Good luck to them, though. The number of architectures has been shrinking for a reason, and that reason is that amd64 has won.
X86 has won the battle but most probably not the war. Nothing technical stops ARM from invading X86 space at increasingly high performance points. When X86 tries to invade the low power space, its complex instruction set bites hard because that big chunk of die that decodes it (don't understate this, it is a good chunk of any modern x86 chip) eats battery power and takes up space that could be used for more cores or more integrated system components. In the long run ARM is going to catch up with X86 in single core throughput and clobber it in cores per dollar, thus winning the war. X86 will be relegated to a sliver or the market in a legacy role. ARM is already roughly tie with X86 in total ops/sec already shipped and ahead by an order of magnitude in units shipped.
The most competition produced the best products and now there's no reason for anything else to exist but amd64 at the high end and arm at the bottom.
Mostly agree, but IBM shows no signs of giving up on Power arch and System Z for its big iron. Also, the high high end segment keeps getting smaller and I think we will pretty quickly hit a situation where ARM and X86 are sharing it, and only legacy effects keep ARM out of the Windows sector. Most probably, my next laptop will be ARM based, maybe a repurposed Chromebook running Linux.
And so sad for intel, they have no arms. They had strongarm->xscale, but it didn't xscale down in power consumption so it got its ass whipped by arm implementations which did and now intel has nothing but some insecure-by-design antiques that it has to rehash.
But maybe I'm wrong and apple will manage to make an arm that can compete with amd64 on highly parallel workloads. Most creative tasks are highly parallelizable, which was how Apple managed to retain their professional user base during the powerpc era. The primary processing unit in the G4 is limp even by the standards of the day, but there was a fast vector coprocessor in there, and content creation apps could be accelerated by it. It's therefore not impossible, only unlikely.
Intel's sun is starting to set, I really can't think what they should do about it. But it's setting slowly, there are still many billions to be had out of the old Wintel cartel. Intel won't get into ARMs simply because they dread cannibalizing their own x86 market. It is just not possible to command the same margin for an ARM part as Intel has become accustomed to in its monopoly segment.
So, you think that this fiasco is not because of Apple management panicking and forcing a impossibly short timeframe on engineering, so best practices practices were tossed to the wind? See, everybody else who offers Intel's 8 core part puts it in a realistic enclosure. Apple management seemed to think they could wave a magic wand and change physics.
I admit it, C++ didn't have a design process.
What do you call this?
Are you also going to admit that you have no working knowledge of C++?
AAPL stock is treading air for the moment by relying on sucking an ever increasing amount of money from its steadily diminishing market slice. If you want an idea what could go wrong with that, look at 2008 wheb AAPL tanked by more than half because everybody decided at the same time that they better not risk their disposable income on nonessentials.
For now, AAPL support relies on an unbroken ten year runup of the economy, that encourages diehard fans to replace their products frequently and sink a lot of money into accessories and overpriced apps they don't really need, but that could turn south any time. Then guess what happens to this graph. Are you a betting man? Want to load up on AAPL today, hoping that Trump's worldwide trade war doesn't suddenly dry up the carriage trade?
We don't need any 2008 style worldwide meltdown to trigger that scenario, just a standard recession, which is overdue.
In 2 weeks no one will even remember this and they know it.
Oh sure, how right. For example, nobody remembers "you're holding it wrong".
If Apple held the parts back longer for testing, people would bitch about how Apple's offerings are behind their competition.
And people would be right in both cases. The underlying problem is, Apple management consciously decided to let the PC offerings rot because that revenue is shrinking while handset revenue is growing. However little sense that makes, that's what they did, then one day they suddenly woke up, saw they needed the PC revenue to make the next quarterlies, and panicked to the extent that best practices were thrown out the window in the rush to catch up from a place they never should have been in.
According to this intelligent-sounding Slashdot user, there was an errata in the CPU datasheet.
https://apple.slashdot.org/com...
People are stupid. They blame Apple for EVERYthing.
Apple is blamed because Apple deserves to be blamed. Apple shipped this product without testing it and/or ignored the test results.
"It was actually Intel's fault. They didn't change the TDP for the 6-core CPUs."
The i9 SKU was intentionally designed to have the same TDP as the 4-core i7 SKU.
Not changing the TDP isn't a mistake, it's the entire point. None of the MacRumors articles you link to support your implication that not changing the TDP was a fault.
Not changing the TDP isn't a mistake, it's the entire point.
But the TDP did change and Intel evidently lied about it. Come on. In which universe does a 4 core part have the same TDP as an 8 core part, other things being equal?
OK genius, let's see your link to the benchmarks. Original problem: computer is too hot. Apple issues fix. New problem: computer is too slow.
Apple just needs to release the portable freezer accessory.
Or go with Ryzen instead of i9. Intel's 8 core desktop parts are clearly running hot.
It is clear from your comment that you do not have a working knowledge of C++, let alone any knowledge of the design process. Admit it.
The VRM bit is an important part of the story, but it's not the only important part. We also learn that i9 does not operate inside its published thermal envelope, otherwise no competent engineer would have wiffed the thermal design so badly. Intel lied, Apple didn't verify, marketing jumped the gun on both sides. It's a circus.
What was the chain of missteps that enabled what can only be called an engineering fiasco?
* AMD's high performing 8 core Ryzen's selling like hotcakes, Intel gets envy.
* i9 rushed to market
* The reason Intel didn't release an 8 core desktop processor in the first place: sucky thermal envelope, and no time to fix the process
* Marketing solution: lie about the power envelope in the spec sheet
* Apple getting shade for obsolete laptop lineup just as PC market showing signs of life
* Apple rushes Macbook refresh to market
* Apple engineers believe Intel's specs, design the VRM too small.
* Apple project manager telescopes the project by cutting out the QA stage
* First production units show significant issues
* QA fudges the problem resolutions for team player reasons
* Product already shipped to retail, just got to cross fingers and hope for the best
* Unhappy customers are not fooled
* Oops.
See, it starts with Intel's well known process issues then envy and hubris take it from there. Apple should pull this product and re-engineer it. Dump the remaining stock for a discount as befits the low performance. Apologize for the mistake. Next one should be AMD.
Apple isn't going to do any of that. "You're holding it wrong."
Apple's fix: replace thermal throttling by software throttling. Result is still a slow computer. But the problem is, the design just can't handle the thermal envelope. Just don't buy this defective product.
You're a PHP fan. To you, the only important measure of competency is that somebody loves or hates a computer language. Do you understand what is meant by "dogs watching television?" Nuff said.
COBOL has decimal numeric representation, and decimal math, so it's not really that painful to work in.
Good. You work in Cobol then, enjoy. For eternity.
I took a brief look through your post history and it's inconsistent. In one post you're recommending something, in the next you're saying its shit. No substance to any of your comments, just a lot of pointless, arrogant text. You are the idiot here.
I don't think you've ever been paid to write a single line of code in your life.
Wait... you don't understand any of those posts? How do you know that you are not the idiot? Consider... It's a PHP thread. You are in it. You did not understand a thing that competent developers say. Possible clue?
Working with PHP written by bad developers is a shortcut to being a better developer. You can see everything a language can do wrong, and everything a developer can do wrong, and then you learn to do the opposite.
Supposing you do become a better developer, do you intend to spend the rest of your career wallowing in bad PHP code? Didn't think so.
Another one seriously trying to equate Javascript with C++? Well, it's a PHP thread, so...
I’m not the parent poster, but am proficient in many languages, with a background that probably puts you to shame
That is unlikely, and if you think that PHP is ever the right tool for anything, then you are an idiot.