There's no such thing as universal bytecode. Every system is a set of compromises. For instance, the Java bytecode system involves things like identifier scoping, integer sizes, FP formats, package scoping, exception handling, etc. Smart it up and you've got something impossibly complex. Dumb it down and you've got, well, a RISC instruction set.
Also, not every language would translate to a bytecode format... a language where data = code, like LISP, would be very unhappy trapped in bytecode.
And don't tell me about standard libraries... we can make a reasonably full-featured socket library, sure... but everyone wants their own tweaked widget library, that's why there's 1,000 different ones out there.
We still can't agree on how big an integer should be -- don't expect a universal instruction set anytime soon:)
I don't think Java's problem is so much execution speed now that we have HotSpot -- it's the *lack* of libraries. Apps are getting much more connected to different APIs, and with Java you have to make a JNI wrapper for each API you want to support. The world speaks in C, C++ and COM, unfortunately. Of course, Java has other problems, like Sun...
I digress.. this guy says his VM has a speed advantage without needing a JIT?! A speed advantage over what... Applesoft?! Yeah, game developers will flock to this platform...
So what's the point of portability nowadays anyway? Seriously? Commercial software will be developed for Windows, open-source software will be eventually ported to Linux no matter what platform it starts on, and Mac users will... complain about cracks in their cube. Anyway, the format of the binary code is inconsequential... the libraries, as you say, are the thing. And things like OpenGL drivers are notoriously dissimilar across platforms, so there goes yer portability.
I too have a vision of a big box with a funnel on top, and I just throw in any number of different CPUs when I want to add horsepower. But thanks to our current chip & OS monopoly, we have no economic need for such a device.
You laugh... but after Apollo 13, Grumman (the makers of the LM) sent North American Rockwell (the makers of the CM/SM) an invoice for $400,000 in towing fees. I don't know if was ever paid, but it sets an interesting precedent:)
21. Slashdot Effect. An extremely popular story directs 1/3 of the population to www.microsoft.com, who registers the flux of traffic as a major DOS attack. It responds by automatically activating a little known feature in MS Word, which causes the paperclip to resurface and begin chanting the lyrics to "In A Gadda Da Vida" in a shrill monotone. Humanity goes berzerk, Napster fills up with Barry Manilow covers, Apache benchmarks fall below IIS, and collapse of civilization follows.
I built one of these in my Real-Time Systems class. Everyone else in the class used Ada on 386 machines, but the prof said it was OK if I used Borland Pascal and assembler. It was a piece of cake!
Yes, RedHat is evil (in this circumstance). Releasing snapshots of absolutely-critical components of an OS is evil. Whatever their technical/marketing reasons for the inclusion, it was irresponsible. Free software should enjoy the same respect of version control as do commercial products. To do otherwise weakens the notion of free software products as being stable, manageable entities, and will lead people to choose products that noone ever got fired for choosing (VC++ 6.0, for example).
It's a matter of whether you believe "the ends justifies the means". Sure, Linux is all about practicality, but I would also like a little discipline in my commercial distro. (that's why I run FreeBSD)
Is it illegal to leave tape recorders on your desk? It might catch on, and then the prof would be lecturing to a bunch of tape recorders sitting on desks. HA! That sounds like a good scene for a movie. It would be even funnier if it starred Val Kilmer.
Hmm, doesn't seem like the nano did any on-orbit maneuvering, just detached itself from its booster and took a picture. It's not hard to make a satellite that'll last 10 minutes in space and performs 1 function. If it actually performed the rendezvous using its own propellant, i'd be more impressed.
Anyway this looks like an anti-sat weapon in disguise -- oops, sorry, we just sprayed black paint on your recon satellite's solar panels!:)
Re:Query for "Bloom County" fans! ... (NOT O-T)
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I got a SINGLE GESTURE for Amazon.com right HEEERE:)
I don't think it's legal to gather people in a computing-related context without a Windows machine present. If you do, they give you a donut and tell you to stick closer to church-oriented activities.
I believe their business plan was drafted during the 3-week period when having Linux as a keyword in your press release meant doubling your IPO price. The actual business model was secondary. So you saw press releases like "Our new eLintRemover is poised to revolutionize the lint-removing industry. Linux MP3s warez Britney Pokemon."
Way back when, I had an Intel AboveBoard with 3 1/2 MB of very very slow RAM (it mounted in a 8-bit slot, if that's any indication). I had 1 MB ram in my 486, so I hacked a Linux kernel to map the memory above 1 MB as a ramdisk. It was fun, but not really worth the effort:)
>look
You are in a texture-mapped, shadow-mapped, Bezier curved hallway. There are obviously a lot of polygons being pushed here. Through the volumetric fog you see a pink monster.
>i
You are carrying:
a brass lantern
a shotgun
a pile of junk mail
The pink monster attacks!
>kill monster with all
brass lantern: The pink monster howls with pain!
shotgun: The pink monster howls with pain!
pile of junk mail: Your thrust is blocked, and the pile of junk mail breaks in two!
>hi, monster
The pink monster tips his hat to you.
The pink monster emits a hideous scream, and ends your life with one fell swoop of his gigantic claw!
Does anyone remember the 1995 game "Stunt Island"? It was the first real film-directing game I'd ever seen. The theme of the game was to fly stunt planes for points, but the business end of it was the movie studio -- you set up cameras, scripted events, place props, and film, then edit the footage into a finished movie. It was quite well done, esp. for 1995. You can still find people publishing movies for it on the Net.
Unfortunately there's been nothing like it since -- but I suppose completely scriptable engines like Quake fill that void.
OK, it's 2000 and I don't even have a robot dog that can vacuum red plush carpet, or even a manned visit to Mars. So I expect the computer of 2010 will run Windows Naught-Seven, and the revolutionary feature of computers in that year will be leopard-skin cases.
I shouldn't add to this Thread from Hell, but I cannot resist...
I am currently working on a 3D game/simulator written in Java, using 1.3 + Hotspot + OpenGL. So far it is performing excellently. I see no garbage collection pauses, no memory thrashing (yet), and get 40-50 FPS without *any* optimization. In fact, the current code base commits several crimes against nature, and uses some incredibly hairly floating-point algorithms. Java chugs right through them.
I am not fond of a lot of Java's *libraries* -- like AWT, Swing, Java3D -- I fault Swing for being too complicated and monolithic, and Java3D for not being OpenGL. Therefore I don't use them. But the language is clean and nice, and now it's fast too. Sure, there is some overhead compared to optimized C++, but I am not competing in the FPS-junkie market.
Some benefits: Supporting the game will be much easier when my users can give me a stack trace + line numbers where the program failed. No need for a separate scripting language. Users can extend w/ their own classes. Patches can be on a class-by-class basis. And so on.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm scared as hell about releasing a Java game and the market accepting it, and trusting Hotspot not to have any show-stopping bugs. But right now, the only way you can tell it's written in Java is the little coffee cup in the upper-left of the window. I think if you don't have to be cognisant of the fact that it's in Java, you won't mind when you find out.
Anyway, my backup plan is... translate to C++.:-p Should only take a couple of months...
BTW you can read my Tech File on flipcode.com if you want to read about my progress.
For those who haven't seen it, check out globalwarming.org. It's not a pro-environment site -- it's an industry-sponsored coalition spreading the "don't worry be happy" message. They say that mild warming will be "beneficial for the planet", making for nice mild winters in Northern Siberia. Mmmm, get your beach towels.
I'm not saying there are easy solutions, or practical alternatives to fossil fuels -- no matter what you do, you'll be destroying ecosystems, risking radioactive disaster, or blasting CO2 everywhere -- but industry isn't making it easier by spreading such heavily-biased information.
Not that Greens are doing any better -- some of the rabid activism turns people off (like myself) that realize that change is slow and compromise is neccessary. Terrorism just isn't the best way to facilitate a dialogue.
Anyway, we only have 100 years or so of liquid petroleum, after that we're back to coal-burning stoves... by then hopefully we'll be able to export our consciousness to XML and transmit ourselves to another poor innocent Class M world.
Slashdot Mirror
There's no such thing as universal bytecode. Every system is a set of compromises. For instance, the Java bytecode system involves things like identifier scoping, integer sizes, FP formats, package scoping, exception handling, etc. Smart it up and you've got something impossibly complex. Dumb it down and you've got, well, a RISC instruction set.
... we can make a reasonably full-featured socket library, sure ... but everyone wants their own tweaked widget library, that's why there's 1,000 different ones out there.
:)
Also, not every language would translate to a bytecode format... a language where data = code, like LISP, would be very unhappy trapped in bytecode.
And don't tell me about standard libraries
We still can't agree on how big an integer should be -- don't expect a universal instruction set anytime soon
I don't think Java's problem is so much execution speed now that we have HotSpot -- it's the *lack* of libraries. Apps are getting much more connected to different APIs, and with Java you have to make a JNI wrapper for each API you want to support. The world speaks in C, C++ and COM, unfortunately. Of course, Java has other problems, like Sun...
... Applesoft?! Yeah, game developers will flock to this platform...
... complain about cracks in their cube. Anyway, the format of the binary code is inconsequential... the libraries, as you say, are the thing. And things like OpenGL drivers are notoriously dissimilar across platforms, so there goes yer portability.
I digress.. this guy says his VM has a speed advantage without needing a JIT?! A speed advantage over what
So what's the point of portability nowadays anyway? Seriously? Commercial software will be developed for Windows, open-source software will be eventually ported to Linux no matter what platform it starts on, and Mac users will
I too have a vision of a big box with a funnel on top, and I just throw in any number of different CPUs when I want to add horsepower. But thanks to our current chip & OS monopoly, we have no economic need for such a device.
Wake me when they have a model with automatically-activating lap restraints. Darn those pesky intertial dampeners... :)
You laugh... but after Apollo 13, Grumman (the makers of the LM) sent North American Rockwell (the makers of the CM/SM) an invoice for $400,000 in towing fees. I don't know if was ever paid, but it sets an interesting precedent :)
Hadden, the old rich guy from "Contact", buys deja.com ... "Why buy one floundering web site when you can have two at twice the price?" :)
21. Slashdot Effect. An extremely popular story directs 1/3 of the population to www.microsoft.com, who registers the flux of traffic as a major DOS attack. It responds by automatically activating a little known feature in MS Word, which causes the paperclip to resurface and begin chanting the lyrics to "In A Gadda Da Vida" in a shrill monotone. Humanity goes berzerk, Napster fills up with Barry Manilow covers, Apache benchmarks fall below IIS, and collapse of civilization follows.
I built one of these in my Real-Time Systems class. Everyone else in the class used Ada on 386 machines, but the prof said it was OK if I used Borland Pascal and assembler. It was a piece of cake!
And, Windows NT has the GUI built into the kernel, so it's totally optimized for server-side apps! :)
:)
I know this is getting old... I'm just mad because my fonts are so ugly on that page. Darn it MS, fix my damn xfstt!
Yes, RedHat is evil (in this circumstance). Releasing snapshots of absolutely-critical components of an OS is evil. Whatever their technical/marketing reasons for the inclusion, it was irresponsible. Free software should enjoy the same respect of version control as do commercial products. To do otherwise weakens the notion of free software products as being stable, manageable entities, and will lead people to choose products that noone ever got fired for choosing (VC++ 6.0, for example).
It's a matter of whether you believe "the ends justifies the means". Sure, Linux is all about practicality, but I would also like a little discipline in my commercial distro. (that's why I run FreeBSD)
Is it illegal to leave tape recorders on your desk? It might catch on, and then the prof would be lecturing to a bunch of tape recorders sitting on desks. HA! That sounds like a good scene for a movie. It would be even funnier if it starred Val Kilmer.
Hmm, doesn't seem like the nano did any on-orbit maneuvering, just detached itself from its booster and took a picture. It's not hard to make a satellite that'll last 10 minutes in space and performs 1 function. If it actually performed the rendezvous using its own propellant, i'd be more impressed.
:)
Anyway this looks like an anti-sat weapon in disguise -- oops, sorry, we just sprayed black paint on your recon satellite's solar panels!
I got a SINGLE GESTURE for Amazon.com right HEEERE :)
I don't think it's legal to gather people in a computing-related context without a Windows machine present. If you do, they give you a donut and tell you to stick closer to church-oriented activities.
No, virtual communities are only about dorks who try to get first posts :)
I believe their business plan was drafted during the 3-week period when having Linux as a keyword in your press release meant doubling your IPO price. The actual business model was secondary. So you saw press releases like "Our new eLintRemover is poised to revolutionize the lint-removing industry. Linux MP3s warez Britney Pokemon."
Strunk & White says in chapter V section 9: "Do not affect a breezy manner."
Way back when, I had an Intel AboveBoard with 3 1/2 MB of very very slow RAM (it mounted in a 8-bit slot, if that's any indication). I had 1 MB ram in my 486, so I hacked a Linux kernel to map the memory above 1 MB as a ramdisk. It was fun, but not really worth the effort :)
>look
You are in a texture-mapped, shadow-mapped, Bezier curved hallway. There are obviously a lot of polygons being pushed here. Through the volumetric fog you see a pink monster.
>i
You are carrying:
a brass lantern
a shotgun
a pile of junk mail
The pink monster attacks!
>kill monster with all
brass lantern: The pink monster howls with pain!
shotgun: The pink monster howls with pain!
pile of junk mail: Your thrust is blocked, and the pile of junk mail breaks in two!
>hi, monster
The pink monster tips his hat to you.
The pink monster emits a hideous scream, and ends your life with one fell swoop of his gigantic claw!
-- END OF SESSION --
Anyone remember GATTACA?!?!!
Does anyone remember the 1995 game "Stunt Island"? It was the first real film-directing game I'd ever seen. The theme of the game was to fly stunt planes for points, but the business end of it was the movie studio -- you set up cameras, scripted events, place props, and film, then edit the footage into a finished movie. It was quite well done, esp. for 1995. You can still find people publishing movies for it on the Net.
Unfortunately there's been nothing like it since -- but I suppose completely scriptable engines like Quake fill that void.
Make sure to ROT13 the dirty jokes so no one is offended.
OK, it's 2000 and I don't even have a robot dog that can vacuum red plush carpet, or even a manned visit to Mars. So I expect the computer of 2010 will run Windows Naught-Seven, and the revolutionary feature of computers in that year will be leopard-skin cases.
Now, when you change your LOOK and FEEL, you'll *REALLY* be changing your LOOK and FEEL!! Get it!?!?! Yowza yowza YOWZA!!
Sorry... feel free to -5 this post...
I shouldn't add to this Thread from Hell, but I cannot resist...
... translate to C++. :-p Should only take a couple of months...
I am currently working on a 3D game/simulator written in Java, using 1.3 + Hotspot + OpenGL. So far it is performing excellently. I see no garbage collection pauses, no memory thrashing (yet), and get 40-50 FPS without *any* optimization. In fact, the current code base commits several crimes against nature, and uses some incredibly hairly floating-point algorithms. Java chugs right through them.
I am not fond of a lot of Java's *libraries* -- like AWT, Swing, Java3D -- I fault Swing for being too complicated and monolithic, and Java3D for not being OpenGL. Therefore I don't use them. But the language is clean and nice, and now it's fast too. Sure, there is some overhead compared to optimized C++, but I am not competing in the FPS-junkie market.
Some benefits: Supporting the game will be much easier when my users can give me a stack trace + line numbers where the program failed. No need for a separate scripting language. Users can extend w/ their own classes. Patches can be on a class-by-class basis. And so on.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm scared as hell about releasing a Java game and the market accepting it, and trusting Hotspot not to have any show-stopping bugs. But right now, the only way you can tell it's written in Java is the little coffee cup in the upper-left of the window. I think if you don't have to be cognisant of the fact that it's in Java, you won't mind when you find out.
Anyway, my backup plan is
BTW you can read my Tech File on flipcode.com if you want to read about my progress.
For those who haven't seen it, check out globalwarming.org. It's not a pro-environment site -- it's an industry-sponsored coalition spreading the "don't worry be happy" message. They say that mild warming will be "beneficial for the planet", making for nice mild winters in Northern Siberia. Mmmm, get your beach towels.
I'm not saying there are easy solutions, or practical alternatives to fossil fuels -- no matter what you do, you'll be destroying ecosystems, risking radioactive disaster, or blasting CO2 everywhere -- but industry isn't making it easier by spreading such heavily-biased information.
Not that Greens are doing any better -- some of the rabid activism turns people off (like myself) that realize that change is slow and compromise is neccessary. Terrorism just isn't the best way to facilitate a dialogue.
Anyway, we only have 100 years or so of liquid petroleum, after that we're back to coal-burning stoves... by then hopefully we'll be able to export our consciousness to XML and transmit ourselves to another poor innocent Class M world.