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Ask John Gildred About Indrema And Linux Gaming
You've been hearing about it (and hearing about it) for months -- the Linux-based gaming console in the works from a company called Indrema. Now you can ask the questions that are on your mind about it (like when it will really and truly arrive, in the hooked-up-and-running-Quake sense, say) and get answers from company founder and CEO John Gildred. (More below.)
Post below your questions for Gildred; you may want to check out previous articles here on Slashdot (#1, #2, #3, #4 (the one Hemos just posted)), as well as other recent interviews with Gildred at womengamers.com and GamesFirst and LinuxGames.com, or even the Indrema Web site, to find previous answers you'd like Gildred to qualify, clarify or expand on as well. No sense asking the obvious, after all -- but I'd sure like to know "When?", "When?!", and "When?!" I'd hoped to have pre-ordered one of these machines already, but the introduction date has been revised a few times, and always in the wrong direction. Hopefully, though, a longer wait means a cooler console.
What I really want to know is how good of a DVD player this thing will be. I plan on buying a new one, and a machine that can do more than play movies is appealing (I like getting more for my money). This is part of the appeal of the Sony Playstation 2. Sure it can play games, but it can also play movies. Now I want a new DVD player that can do progressive scan via component outputs -- you mention support for the 480p and 720p signals, as well as HDTV support at 1080i. I also want to be able to ouput DTS/DTS-es/Dolby 5.1/6.1, etc. to my sound system. All of this functionality is at best hinted at and at worst not mentioned at all on your website. So will all this be available?
TiVo doesn't build the boxes, Sony and Philips do. Sony and Philips have paid TiVo for a license to build the boxes, and you pay TiVo to use the service. So, TiVo doesn't really care what you do with the unit (bigger hard drive, network interface for your TiVo Beowulf cluster, etc.), as long as you fork over your monthly service charge. Sony and Philips on the other hand...
It meets the GL spec in all the areas that matters and it's a decent software implementation. It happens that what I think you're talking about is accelerated MesaGL- which is a different beast altogether. And, yes, without better acceleration support, there's not going to be a future. Thing is, there is a future- DRI is coming. For those that can't wait and have select accelerators, there's Utah-GLX.
Workstations only for work? De facto nature of Linux? I think you might want to take those blinders off. Windows98 and W2k are "workstation" OSes as well (Well, Microsoft calls them that!) and they are used as such. That's the de facto nature of them- but yet, look at all the games for those OSes. Take all the preconcieved notions of what an OS is supposed to be used for and throw them clean out the window. And as for it being "fun" without a high-speed internet connection; you're not trying hard enough.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Look at all the consoles out there. Of them, which is the only one out there that will have anything resembling it? You guessed it- the X-Box. Of the console choices out there, which one is vaporware? Again, the X-Box (if it's not shipping yet, it's still vapor!). Now, if the console companies seem (and they do at that!) to be doing well for themselves without DirectX, why on this Earth would it be an issue for this machine?
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
DirectX is not a magic bullet. DirectX is not a way to make Linux popular as a platform for gaming.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
DRI's the answer to that. You're NOT going to go through X with it. And, it seems that with the current RagePRO GLX support through Utah-GLX, that I've got a visually correct display and slightly higher frame rates in many of my games than in Windows. That's through all those layers of indirection that X presents.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Give the size constraints of the Indrema, you might not be able to leave lots of empty space for future expansion. But how much hardware modification will be possible, for those inclined toward such things? Will it be possible to buy a unit with a smaller hard drive, then upgrade later with an off-the-shelf unit? (Corollary: We will be able to download OS patches, right? :)
Some of the advantages of a console from a game developers point of view have to do with the licensing model, and the stability of hardware.
My understanding of your current plans indicates that you have made the licensing model more open. Game developers don't like this as the market will be flooded with low-quality games. Their games will have a hard time getting notice, and consumers will be turned off to the platform because of quality of games.
You also plan on providing an upgrade mechanism for several components of the machine. How do you plan to do this without bringing along all of the headache game developers have on the PC platform? Compatibility is a pain. Most game developers would rather write to a slower piece of hardware that was unchanging and known, then a faster piece of hardware that was changing.
So, without a stable hardware platfrom, and a closed licensing model, you have removed the primary reason game developers like consoles. What reason is there left to develop for your system and not a PC?
--Tom Stanis
Are Loki games the only games your console will have at release? Will I be able to use mods for these games as well?
Will this be another linux set-top box like AOL-Gateway and dozens of others that allows TV and networking?
Can you use it as a basic linux system as well?
Even though you seem to have some reasonably impressive technical specs for your machine, a console is nothing without a good lineup of games. How do you expect to be able to get enough developer support whne you've got competition from the likes of Nintendo, Sony, Sega and Microsoft? Microsoft alone will apparently be spending half a billion dollars on marketing XBox, and all the other companies have a record of making games consoles, and are well known by the public.
For a game devloper to be able to make their money back, they need to sell a large number of units of their game, which isn't going to happen unless you've got a large user base. I just can't see how you're going to out-market the giants...
cheers,
Tim
Surely you aren't suggesting that the constant realm crashing of bnet, the lag-kill inducing level caching system, the after-thought synchronization pulse, or the perspective-warping graphics engine were the result of pitiful programmers?
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Let's not forget that Lances (exceptional pikes) don't get dropped because of errors in the data file (really sucks for Spearazons on Hell mode).
Also, in a wonderful display of anti-software-engineering practices, there's so much duplicated code that your stats are rarely what's displayed on the character window.
And then there's the fact that certain death conditions will leave your single-user character files open, such that they exist in the filesystem but cannot be accessed. Fortunately, Window's scandisk fixed that.
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If you read some of the links mentioned above, your question will be answered.
Does the Indrema console support the Amiga / Tao Virtual Environment for development? I ask mainly because that would mean that any developers could be assured that their game would run on a variety of systems, and since RedHat bundles the new Amiga SDK.
Choice of masters is not freedom.
How will it measure up to the X-box in terms of price & performance?
Will third parties be releasing games for it?
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Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
I like MesaGL right now. Esp. the pre-3.3 Mesa in Soldier of Fortune. I can see through doors and some walls ;) great help in on-line gaming...
I could fix this by upgrading, but why would i?
What is DVI?
is it the 1.5Gb HDTV serial interface or is it a firewire like connection?
I believe their business plan was drafted during the 3-week period when having Linux as a keyword in your press release meant doubling your IPO price. The actual business model was secondary. So you saw press releases like "Our new eLintRemover is poised to revolutionize the lint-removing industry. Linux MP3s warez Britney Pokemon."
What is Indrema's relationship with Loki? Are you planning some cooperation or something? It's kinda strang that the biggest publisher of Linux games and a console based on Linux don't have a relationship.
No discernable, qualitative economical difference exists between a console and a personal computer. Both consist of computer hardware and software and the marketshare of both is largely (if not entirely) a function of the available add-on titles. For each exception to this rule (the no qualitative difference rule) that exists on side of the equation, an equivalent exception exists on the other side.
The differences between consoles and personal computers is almost entirely functional, not economical. Consoles are typically single function devices (one plays games on them) while personal computers are typically general pupose machines (one plays games, does the taxes, writes codes, etc.).
Even this difference is fading. Consoles are quickly becoming general purpose devices. For example, Sony's PS 2 also plays movies and browses the web. We are entering the dreaded buzz word era: digital convergence.
Consider the new PDA's such as the iPaq. These are "computer appliances" and as such are close cousins to the gaming console. But wait, they are quickly becoming general purpose machines as well.
No developer needs to develop Indrema only games in order for Indrema to be successful. Rather, enough developers need to also support Indrema with their titles. Evidently, you have not read Gildred's other interviews linked at the top of this article. Gildred already addressed his market plan. It is the market plan of a console, not of a general purpose computer.
Now, whether Indrema has done enough research into their target market (Linux Power Gamers) to make the venture more than a 1 in a million crap shoot is another question altogether.
This is the first sensible thing you've said and it is quite correct. The success of Linux in the market is entirely due to grass roots marketing, not, as many people like to believe, its alleged technological superiority over Windows. Linux may or may not be superior to its competitors (it is higly likely that the grass roots marketing behind Linux is because of actual superiority, but this is not necessarily the case). In fact, whether Linux is superior or not doesn't matter. What does matter is that Linux is grabbing developer and data center mindshare at a phenomenal rate. Indrema is gambling that grass roots marketing will make for a profitable console . It will be interesting to see if Indrema's gamble pays off...
So says the conventional wisdom. Personally I disbelieve that this is always the case or even predominantly the case. Do you have any support for the conventional wisdom?
[1] This may be due to many Linux gamers buying the Windows version which often includes a license for the Linux version and/or Linux titles typically coming to market weeks or months after the Windows version and/or the release of multi-platform disks that get counted as "Windows" sales. AFAIK, no one has yet sought to do a serious enough analysis of the situation to say one way or the other.
NO! About the worst thing I can imagine is having to "pay per hour" or similar! It's just like when I had to use dialup for internet access. Every time I had played for a while I would think "Oh, no! This will get expensive!". I like to know that after I buy a game, I won't have to pay any more for it ever.
/Emil
Maybe a monthly fee for Online RPG:s or something like that, but even that is pushing it.
check out www.indrema.com and www.xbox.com.. their spec pages state that both these devices will include ethernet. read a little before asking questions.
It seems to me that the only chance that a small console company has in the fight with the two biggest and badest boys on the block is to do exactly what they will never do, and make the it a Free (as in speech) and open platform that caters to the users rather than to corporate interests and profite motives of control.
Yet, from what I read of the audio interview transcripts the other day, you seem to be taking the opposite approach, and are going to play the same game of attempting to control and enslave the console user as they do. Certainly going out of your way to lock off the ability of hackers to tweak and change the machine is a step in that direction, and the quote that could only be interpreted as that you would not allow certain kinds of applications (Napster type) on your platform would seem to be a confirmation.
Openess and the ability to run those incredibly popular applications that Microsoft and Sony, being in bed with the "intellectual property" maffia, will never allow on their closed platforms would be fantastic. A machine that is not only a console, but that works for the users and not against them (like the MS and Sony machines will in many ways) could be something major, while another attempt to build a PC with Freedom and Openess removed is doomed to soon be forgotten.
Which road are you taking, and if you truly intend to criple your machine and it's users to suit the desires of the music and movie industries, how do you defend that to us as potential customers?
From the Indrema FAQ:
Q: Can a developer release freeware for IES?
A: Yes, there will be an Indrema Certification program for freeware. Freeware certification will not require a per unit certification fee.
Don't be fooled by the techonology here. What this thing depends on is the willingness of people to develop for it, and that is determined by the market realities, not the technology. No developer is going to risk their ass to produce an Idrema-specific game.
I remember people saying the same thing about the Playstation. "Sony? Making a console? But nobody's going to risk developing for Sony when they can just develop for the already-proven Sega and Nintendo...". OK, Sony had more money. But the Indrema has the advantage of open, already proven APIs, like OpenGL. There is already a ton of developers out there with experience with these resources, and the barrier to entry is a hell of a lot lower, since you don't have to shell out just to develop.
So, Idrema consoles will, for the most part, be running games that were developed for the wider PC market, and which happen to also run on Idrema. In other words, economically, it's a PC that you can't do much with, not a console.
I was making the distinction between a PC and a console primarily because of the silly idea that supporting diverse hardware would be critical to their success. This is true for a gaming OS for PCs, but not for a console. As far as being "a PC that you can't do much with", have you taken a look at the specs for every major console lately? They're all like that. Sure, Sega has Sonic, and Nintendo has Mario, but they also have "PC" games (not sure I see a big difference myself). The FAQ says they will have ~30 titles at launch, which isn't bad. Plus, you have to remember that this is more than just a gaming machine. Things like DVD playing and web surfing.
I'd rather pay for open software than get closed software for free.
This is silly; you clearly don't mean what you're saying here.
Please don't tell me what I mean.
In order for the software to be "open", you have to have the option of getting it for free. So why would you pay for it?
I'm saying I value open software more than closed software. I'm saying that I'll pay more for something of higher value. Neither of these points change just because open software is usually available at no cost.
And, knowing this, why would any games developer make the software open in the first place.
I'm not saying they should. But if you want a reason, then how about a simple observation. Virtually all games fit into a small number of categories, and the main thing that makes them different to one another is the levels, artwork, and things like that. The content. The engines themselves aren't that important, as long as they do their job (would you buy a game with awful content just because the engine was good?). It would make sense to have a few open engines that could be shared and improved by the various companies that make games using those engines. The cost for developing those engines would be shared across multiple companies, at the price of competition.
Even Eric Raymond knows that the Open Source model isn't appropriate for games until they've passed the end of their commercial life.
Wow! Even Eric Raymond knows it? I'll have to change my opinion accordingly, then. </sarcasm>
What is your attitude on hackers tearing apart an affordable system to add new functionality and features? Will your company encourage hacking of your game consoles to add functionality, or will you fire off Cease and Desist letters?
When, not if, your cool new console gets hackish add-ons, what would be the coolest features you would like to see? Will you incorporate the best hacks into new games for those who have them? Will you come out with non-game features or applications for those who want to re-use their hardware for other things like controlling robots or network management?
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
HOWEVER, Linux is missing (or semi-missing) several pieces to make it an excellent gaming platform: easy to install/configure high-end graphics and, of course, DVD.
:-)
Why do you need to configure on your gaming platform? What is there to install? As for configuration, anything they may need to let you configure they can give you a nice simple menu for. My grandmother just bought a TiVo (which also runs linux) and had it set up and working in half an hour! This coming from someone who doesn't understand a thing about her computer. I would hope a gaming console would abstract 99.9% of what's underneath the hood from the user in the same way.
As for high-end graphics, from what I've seen it does high end graphics just as well as Windows, but I'm no expert, so I'll just avoid this one...
And last, DVD. Linux can read from DVD's and can even play the video from them, the only problem right now is getting around CSS (their encryption/scrambling system) Other than that DVD's are just a huge CD, and manufacturers have been putting games on CD's for years. This should be no different
At a recent Xbox technical presentation that was held at my school (Purdue) a Microsoft representative said their chief completion was Sony and to a lesser extent Nintendo. When asked about the Indrema he merely laughed pointing out that he thought the project would never get off the ground with out $2bil pumped into it (ie. Xbox..). Which raises the question, Your company is definitely the underdog in shear resources how do you plan to compete commercially with the likes of Microsoft and Sony?
Is Linux really your primary angle or is that simply what Linux zealots are reading into it? I ask because OS choice is not even in the top ten reasons why someone would pick one game console over another, yet every article about Indrema fixates on Linux being the focus of the console.
But OpenGL in Quake III Arena still rocks anything Direct3D puts out. And yes, John "Fucking" Carmack is a god. :)
To make this slightly on-topic: if nothing else, this gaming console will make Linux as a consumer platform seem more viable. There are already binaries for both Quake III Arena and Unreal Tournament, in addition to many other games.
With PS2 (Sony), X-BOX (MS), and the GameCube (Nintendo) out or coming out next year, how are you going to compete againt the "big boys" ?
It's a known fact that consoles (hardware) sells for a loss, and make it up on licensing the games (software). What game developers do you have lined up?
As a game programmer I'd be interested in getting a dev kit. The registration page doesn't have any info on price, or hardware specs. Could you give us any of those?
Thx
Are you guys NUTS? Do you really think that you have even a snowball's chance in Hell of selling even a *few* of these things in a market which Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, and Sega are determined to dominate?
Indrema is Doomed with a capital 'D'. A Linux-based console isn't a bad idea, but without MAJOR funding, a new console can never, ever take off. It's all about marketing.
Sega, Sony, and Nintendo all have entrenched markets in the console industry. While it isn't impossible to break into the market, what strategy do you have for competing with these three titans? What is it about Indrema that sets it apart from the rest of the crowd?
A related question: key to the success of any platform is developer support. What developers have pledged to code for the Indrema system? At the projected release date, how many games will there be, and what kind of games are you going after?
Console sales are largely dictated by the quality and quantity of game titles available. Today there are far more technically superior platforms than the Sony Playstation, yet the quantity and (mostly) excellent quality of the titles available keep this outdated hardware selling.
I believe an open console is a fantastic idea (from a developers p.o.v) but am interested to hear how Indrema intend to control the quality of titles available for your platform. I ask because most console gamers are consumers rather than coders.
Will Indrema offer some kind of official licensed product scheme? Will Indrema be developing their own games in-house or with third party developers? Are you expecting to 'license' independently developed games of sufficient quality?
Probably the main thing that has kept the current crop of video game manufacturers alive over the years has been their ability to sign key game developers along the way.
What kinds of alliances have you been striking with game development companies, or are you planning on relying on the normal development of PC games for Linux?
...Linux is missing (or semi-missing) several pieces to make it an excellent gaming platform: easy to install/configure high-end graphics
Well, I guess that the little `Use 3D Acceleration' checkbox wasn't there when I installed SuSE 6.4, on several different machines with different graphics cards, in the past week. And booting from the CD was _really_ tough too (/sarcasm)
I'd assume that the other major distro's are up to that standard of easy to install/configure now, if not then better.
Btw, IANASE (I Am Not A SuSE Employee)
One thing that I've noticed in the past about consoles is that they have traditionally required much more efficient coding, because the programmers are dealing with a very limited amount of memory. While systems like the X-Box might change this a bit, I think that consoles will still have this limitation to a degree. Since I'm sure the same will be true for a Linux based console, do you think that the code developed in the making of a console system could someday lead us to a more efficient, less bloated GUI for Linux that would replace X?
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Actually, Open Source doesn't mean you can't make money selling it. Witness Red Hat; a company that has taken an Open Source product, wrapped it up in a way that the average person can use, and made money selling it. You would conceivably get the same effect with open source games; sure, most "hard-core" Linux users who grab this thing will scour the net, compile our own binaries, and not pay a cent. However, if this truly catches on in the console market, then you're going to have a whole-bunch of Nintendo kiddies who have no clue or desire to compile and configure their own games. They'll buy the nicely wrapped versions provided at market.
Well, they could always say to the developers "Hey, we've got this great distribution method in place already that'll triple the number of people who buy your game. Don't waste your time coming up with your own distribution scheme, just let us handle it and we'll split the profits on every game sold". That'd be one way to get revenues on each title sold, provided enough developers opt in on it. Of course, they're not going to make nearly as much as Sony, who can force every developer to pay regardless, but they may be able to at least turn a profit. I'd be interested in hearing what Indrema actually intends, though, of course :)
You're not really counting solely on superior hardware to make this thing work, are you? This kind of bet has failed so many times in the past it would be hard to ennumerate them all here. Obviously you're going to have to grab enough of a user-base that developers are going to jump at the chance to support your console. So what is the killer feature that will be so irresistible to gamers and developers alike that we're going to take a chance on an unknown console instead of putting our money down on a tried-and-true PlayStation 2?
You can get cigaretta lighter adapters from any travel store, that work with anything that has a plug. Extremely useful for a laptop, altho I'm not sure why you'd want a non portable videogame system and a tv in your car.
My biggest gripe about consoles, and the reason that I do not own one, is that when you buy a game for one that is all you get. Many PC games have huge modding communities with independantly-created models, characters, and even add-on games--not to mention the mods. To what extent will the Indrema support mods for those few games with Linux support, if at all?
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
No, open source doesn't mean you can't make money selling it. But what it does mean is that you can't charge a software tax on sales of software made by third parties. Sony makes money on every single PlayStation game sold, by every single publisher. That model won't work here. So, question is, how do they make money?
Whichever way you slice it, they are shutting themselves off from the primary revenue stream that Sony et al. have, and they don't seem to have any alternatives that aren't also open to those companies. So, I'll say it again: why do they think they'll be able to make money?
How are you planning to break even? The traditional console business model is to sell the console itself at a loss, and make money in the form of a 'tax' on the software. With a truly open system, this won't be possible. Unless I've missed something, that leaves you with a profit margin on the console itself as your source of revenue - but to turn a profit on the console would mean charging far more for it than your competitors will charge for their machines.
I wonder if the games will work on both the console and my linux box? Linux in general still needs a lot more games. One of the main reasons why I still keep my Windoze98 partition around is exclusively for games. The day I can play Starcraft, AoE2 and Tiberian Sun on my Linux box is the day Windoze leaves my life forever.
- kk
you aren't allowed to unecrypt (watch) dvd without an approved dvd player.
it has to be approved by the dvd consortium and not by the person who owns the copyright to the content.
because the dvd consortium owns your soul.
except in germany where it is perfectly legal to do watch your dvd's how ever you please. that's where the livid progect is hosted. (the project that uses decss to view movies under linux and started this whole mess).
linuxvideo.org
In the past the price of games consoles has been heavily subsidised by the revenues from selling the games that run on the hardware (havn't they?). Do you think that with Indrema you'll be able to price the hardware competitively without people buying your hardware as a cheap-PC and not buying your games and software? Or perhaps will the Indrema hardware be more expensive (compared to PS2, DC etc) but benefit from having more cheap (or free!) games available?
Will anyone be able to download code compiled on a PC based host to a normal L600 for testing, or will special development kits be necessary?
To what extent will Java be supported?
Will patches have to be certified individually?
Could you please expand upon the notion of "certified" and uncertified games, what the system will and will not play, and the open sourcing of your internal API's used for game development (the ones contained on the developer kits) which apparently will be closed source?
and I want to make a game. So I go out and learn c, I learn a little graphics theory, so now I want to make a cool game for my open source console. I don't care about marketing or whatnot, I just want to code something for the console. Can I do this without going bankrupt?
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Peace,
Lord Omlette
ICQ# 77863057
[o]_O
I grant you, until he says _which_ 30 games, it's still vapour. But if only 1 new game is written specifically for the Indrema and is a success, they'll get a hit. For instance, Sonic was a killer app in the console world, not for advertising but bcos it was good and original - get something like that and you're away. In the early 90's, Doom was a killer app for PCs - there wasn't anything like it around, consoles were all ancient and looked shite, and as a bonus you could do work on PCs too, so kiddies could persuade their parents that they wanted them for that. :-)
Consoles aren't just about marketing, they're about quality too. If there's better games available on another console, all the marketing in the world won't save you. Their approach may actually work in that they're going out and saying, "OK, we're not going to waste our money telling you how good we are, we're going to _show_ you", which has a certain element of originality after the media max-out of Sony, etc. Of course, they're only as good as their games, so they'd better be pretty damn hot! Consoles are largely aimed at kids, and kids have just about THE best network around cos they're all into the "who's got the best" thing.
I don't actually remember Indrema saying that their games were going to be open-source - all they say is that the specs of their machine are open so anyone can develop for it, as opposed to Sony, Nintendo, etc who charge $$$ for licensing. And it makes the field open to hardware hackers and add-on merchants, who can add all sorts of custome goodies to it.
Grab.
Go on, I'll bite. I'm skimming this thread. What's DAEHTHIS?
The other question I have would be ... do you plan on having someone scream Indrema in your commercials ... because I can be that guy :-)
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
The biggest complaint I've heard from game companies about linux users is that they don't want to pay for games... that they want the games to be open source.
...or will you do something dastardly/proprietary to thwart that?
Does that even apply to a console system as a problem? Since it may not be targetted at linux users per se. Are you afraid of increased piracy?
Can the proposed games for the console system be used on a regular linux system?
BlackNova Traders
Crashes every hour? Linux-N, Windows-N, Mac-Y
.88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
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I'd love to argue the deep point with you, but you're struggling with the shallowest of the concepts that would come up.
.88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
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That comment is 5 years out of date. The games industry has been moaning for the last 5 years about the good old days when the best games came from small, independent dev teams. But it can't happen now, not unless your idea of "the best games" means "Tetris clones". The small independent developers now are running multi-million-dollar budgets, to deal with the complexity and the mass of content that's required to compete in today's market.
.88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
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Why did you choose Linux as the operating system for this console? Linux is best known as a robust, multi-tasking, multi-user host, while games are single-user, single-tasking applications. Won't the games suffer an unecessary performance hit due to Linux's paging and protection mechanisms, or do you disable these and have a "streamlined" Linux which does only what it absolutely necessary?
.88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
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PS2 and GameCube are going to do just fine without DirectX sapping 5%-10% (less MS-friendly estimates go up to 25%) of their performance. I'm sure this console will too.
.88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
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what companies are goning to write games for it
lose != loose
Windows had some games, but they weren't as powerful or as fun as DOS games. But they were slightly easier to write, since they didn't need sound drivers and graphics drivers to be written for the game itself.
Then came Windows 95. Windows 95's APIs were slightly faster than Windows 3.1, and Window-based games were possible. But DOS games still ruled.
MS wasn't stupid - they knew that ease of access to hardware is what made DOS the OS of choice for games. So they did the intelligent thing - they made it possible to access the hardware through an abstraction layer, called DirectX. The first real DirectX games were made based on DirectX 3 (what's it with MS and getting things right the third version?).
Since then, this "Direct X" beast has been what allowed people to make video games that run on a vast number of hardware.
Consoles skip that problem handily. All the hardware is the same, always! (Well, sorta. Sony added some new stuff when they created the Dual Shock. But it became standardized because - well, Sony did it first and marketed it, and since they made the console....)
Because the hardware is known on a console, you can use assembly and write really fast routines for the hardware. You don't need to rely on abstraction layers that know which registers exist on the GPU for this card and what to do to access the DSP for the sound card. It's all known.
That being said, you really don't need much of a kernel for your OS. (Besides, a RR scheduler on a gaming machine? Ugh.) All you need to provide are services to access the media, services to use the network (if provided), and that's basically it. You probably don't want to make hardware drivers in the OS - let people optimize their game for the single set of hardware. That's what "next generation" games do - the first generation of games are trying out a console, as time goes on, people learn how to use the hardware in the best possible way for what they wish to do.
The bottom line is that Windows got game because it was easier to access computer hardware to write fast games on it. When it got > 75% of the market share, it became a sure-thing to write for. Macs aren't a real target platform because of the small market. Same for Linux.
Consoles have the same market share problem, to a degree. Once a console's hardware is a restriction on the games, developers will be more likely to move to a newer console simply to take advantage of the newer, nicer hardware. Hardware is a factor, market penetration is more. Accessing the hardware is the biggest hurdle using an OS, and Windows would be the worst if it wasn't for DirectX providing a standard way to do it.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Sound like this thing might be costly to produce. Traditionally, console manufacturers have a high initial price when demand is high and have high margins which makes them most of their money. Then, once demand slacks off a bit, they start lowering the price to what is a much smaller margin.
So, the question is, how far can you lower the price once the "early adopters" buy your console. I see the Dreamcast selling for 149.99 on amazon.com. I think the Indrema potentially has more features that justify a higher price, but how low can you go?
I think everyone here wants you to make a healthy profit, if you are truly creating a good machine that does 95% of what you say it will do, but a game is not as fun unless you can share it with others and I want my non linux-nut friends to be able to buy these boxes a year from now at a cheaper price.
The licensing / certification business model that you are operating under is a sound one. I heard somewhere that 50% (or some astronomical number) of sonys income is from Playstation game licensing. However, it requires a critical mass installed base to work. How do you plan to get that installed base when Sony and Nintendo own the market?
Pulling lots of geek features into a box is cool, but that doesn't really speak to the average pre-teen gamer. What about the box is going to make kids ask for one for x-mas?
Do you have a Killer Game or app unique to your box that's going make it a must-have (for non-geeks)?
Me personally I'd much rather shell out a couple of bucks a month to a game network server than shell out $60 (or whatever) for a game "package" in a store. I want my money to go to the developers of the software, not the store that sells it, or the distributors that distribute it, or the publishers that publish it.
Let the developers make some web sites where I can rent access to their game service. Like an ASP for games, except the idea doesn't suck, and it's cheap, and the developer gets to make some dough.
--
NO TOUCH MONKEY!
Being that Linux is primarily an open source OS, are there any plans to release the code for the console and games?
Dirty Pirate Hooker
Will you shun emulators of the console, such as 'Bleem!'??
Most of the gaming industry claims that the best games come from small, independent, 'garage-type' developing teams with little money. Are you going to encourage this type of company to produce games for your console? Will you help them market their games?
-- "Microsoft can never die! They make the best damn joysticks around!"
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
My apologies for skimming and not reading. Dunno why I keep getting moderated up...
-- "Microsoft can never die! They make the best damn joysticks around!"
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
The X-Box, PS2, Dreamcase have all mentioned having a 56k Modem. The N-Cube claims to have an ethernet port for those with broadband. What kind of online capabilities will this machine have? Seeing as how quickly broadband is growing, I'd like to heavily encourage having an ethernet port :-)
Keep in mind, that online gaming is the future...
-- "Microsoft can never die! They make the best damn joysticks around!"
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
What are you going to do about the lack of DirectX support?
-- the most controversial site on the Web
I'd rather pay for open software than get closed software for free.
This is silly; you clearly don't mean what you're saying here. In order for the software to be "open", you have to have the option of getting it for free. So why would you pay for it? And, knowing this, why would any games developer make the software open in the first place. Even Eric Raymond knows that the Open Source model isn't appropriate for games until they've passed the end of their commercial life.
Consoles are about marketing, not technology. Don't bring your server mentality to the mass market and expect anything other than a sound ass-whipping.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
I am a freshman studing computer science at the university of utah. I am planning on making games for linux once get out of collgege. would the indremea be a good start for me to practise making games on before I enter the real market? how difficult is programing for the indremia versus programing for a normal pc? will there be tutorials to help me program for it?
From the FAQ on their site:
Q: Will IES support DVD?
A: Yes, the IES platform will support DVD playback in some models. The details of DVD support in the L600 will be announced later.
The recent interview on WomenGamers.com includes the anwser to the target audience question. (Question 15.)
From Indrema's FAQ:
Q: Will the IES support cable and DSL modem Internet connections?
A: Yes, connectivity to cable modem and DSL modem is available via the 10/100Mbps Ethernet port.
Even Eric Raymond knows that the Open Source model isn't appropriate for games until they've passed the end of their commercial life.
I guess it is too bad for Peter Molyneax that he didn't get the message.
Eric Raymond has reasons for believing that Open Source wouldn't be as beneficial for some games as for other products, but that reasoning doesn't apply to all games. For instance, most sports games have new versions every year, and IMO could be done better open source. The problem with those is of course licensing from the appropriate league.
With the release of Diablo II, I'm beginning to think Open Source really does make sense for games, at least games by companies with pitiful programmers, like Blizzard North.
the only problem right now is getting around CSS (their encryption/scrambling system)
I've been wondering this for a while, what could be made against building DeCSS into a DVD player? It wouldn't help pirates copy things, and it would allow fair use. I'm guessing the bad guys wouldn't see things this way, but does anyone have any idea what arguments they could use?
Indrema is Doomed with a capital 'D'.
Wow! With id's next game being made for the system, it's sure to be a hit!
On Indrema's web site there is a blurb describing how great it is for Hotels and Resorts. Has anyone expressed interest in this? How aggresively are you marketing to this group? Do hotels or resorts currently have any consoles or set-top boxes?
I know it's fun to think of this as a David vs Goliath situation, in this case Linux gamers with an inferiority complex (as far as gaming goes, anyway) vs big bad Microsoft, Sony, Sega and Nintendo.
But, therein lies the problem. A little company, with a tiny budget, is barely going to be a blip on the radar to those companies. Their customer base? Inconsequential. The only people who will likely buy this system are people that run Linux already. Developers realise this, so why bother wasting resources on a platform that will generate no returns for them? People like Linux because it's free and open. Do you think the games will be free -or- open? Maybe, just maybe, an established developer will decide it's a cool idea, but even then, do you suppose the publisher will push a free/open game?
Anyone who already owns consoles won't waste their money, since they KNOW the Playstation 2 or Dreamcast (and even the DC is in rough waters) will get the games they want to play, and anyone wanting computer games get Win98 PC's with the NVIDIAs or the 3DFXs, because they KNOW the games they want to play will come out for their systems.
Let's face it, developers and/or publishers are already weary of releasing anything for the current Linux gamers, and being that it's doubtful 100% of those gamers will buy the Indrema, why would anyone think that it might be worthwhile releasing games to a fraction of a market the gaming industry doesn't care about already?
I think games are just a bi-product though. Ever since the IBM-PC was reverse engineered and clones came about, PC's were cheaper than macs so everyone bought them. In turn, companies focused more on developing applications (and yes, games!) for the PC. Although i think you do bring up a valid point about games.
Imagine that.. Does this mean if the games are released open sourcelike and all, we could actually go in and alter the code in terms of cheating, or difficulty?
All in all, I was originally excited about this project but more and more ..what with content controls, etc, etc... it sounds like 'Just Another Console' (but from a company that can't afford $5 billion on the marketing push).
Oh well.
How much hardware support will you contribute to? What I mean is, I have a Microsoft force-feedback joystick. Will I be able to use it with your unit? How about other force feedback devices from other manufacturers? Many of these devices are USB; USB is just starting to gain ground with Linux. What effort will you be putting in to help support such devices.
Wrong, consoles typically sell at a loss, profits are made from the game royalties. Try buying a PC that can keep up with PS2 or X-Box for less than $300.
Will it support AC3 so I can hook up my stereo?
Will it support DVI so I can hook a digital monitor or digital projector?
And, of course will it let me play my DVD's?
My first question is about possible connectivity of the indrema to an existing linux box. Will there be a way to interface to the box to an existing linux box to increase the storage capacity, ala exporting a drive off to the indrema using kerberos or nfs? How about firing up a terminal on the indrema?
The second question is obvious...the web site made no mention of an existing linux box being capable of running the indrema software. Will existing linux boxen with proper hardware reqs be able to play these games?
^D
<EOT>
Okay, so maybe that's a bit harsh, but it seems like you're risking a lot of money on a product which will give only minimal returns. Linux is simply not viable as a gaming platform at the moment, and indeed for the forseeable future. Like it or loathe it, DirectX support would go a long way to making Linux more popular with the kind of trigger-happy moron who enjoys playing Quake.
And then there's the fact that within a week of launch some hacker spouting Stallmanist rhetoric will have hacked into the box and posted instructions on how to do so onto the net for all and sundry to read. Hell, Taco'll probably help them out by posting a story on /. about it.
So my question is, where exactly is the market for this box and how will you generate a profit? It all seems like a pipe-dream to me.
Then I can tell you.
Respond to s
I remember when you could play a 3d game without the need for an external 3d graphics card on a 486 and get by (I have the game in question on CD). I am wondering with the use of consoles based on linux are we ever going to see the really, really efficient games.
Also I have interest in the quality of the games in question. Most of the open source games have very little plot and in fact seem to be knock offs of really old (and quite frankly not that fun) games from the 80's and earlier. What would be nice is to see something with a Final Fantasy level of story and in depth plot to work with.
Respond to s
If you really want to get linux accepted by the public, slap it onto an open console.
Consoles don't need resource-hogging GUIs.
With consoles, you know what hardware you've got to work with.
think about it
TODAY: Gore promises prescriptions for the elderly, Kal-Kan for the young
www.ridiculopathy.com
That's why I feel that Linux gaming will go nowhere; because it goes against the de facto nature of Linux.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Didn't you see? I said >20K/sec, not >20kbps. I mean transfer rate; 56kbps actually transfers at 4K/sec. That's wicked slow; god forbid you ever try to upload a core dump.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Will this thing have a segmentation fault every time I try to do something in a specific game? There is an unspoken law that game consoles should never crash. How will this system hold up to that?
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
For the longest time I have held the belief that what decides the prominant System and OSis, more than anything else, gaming. Look at the big three OS's: Linux, Windows, Mac.
Word Processors?
Linux- Yes, Windows- Yes, Mac-Yes
Databases?
Linux- Y, Windows- Y, Mac- Y
Spreadsheets?
Linux- Y, Windows- Y, Mac- Y
Photo Editors?
Linux- Y, Windows- Y, Mac- Y
3d Graphic Suites?
Linux- Y, Windows- Y, Mac- Y
Web Browsers?
Linux- Y, Windows- Y, Mac- Y
All the coolest new games?
Linux- N, Windows- YES!!!, Mac- N
That last point is the only big difference!
I used to be a die hard Apple fan. I used (and still own) an Apple II+, IIe, IIc, and a Mac Performa. But now, I've got a PIII W98 system with a Voodoo 5 in it. Despite the fact that I despise microsoft, and I think Windows is worst, cobbled together piece-of-crap I've ever encountered. Why? Because of the games, period.
All someone has to do is create an OS specifically designed for games, but that can also provide the day-to-day functionality that the average keyboard-potato needs to survive, and get the major game publishers on the bandwagon. If that happened, I think you can kiss Windows goodbye. Games make the decision.
Anyway, enough of my $0.02. Flame away.
-Kriticism
-PARANOIA is fun. D20 is not fun. The Computer says so.
-The Computer
Will your product work only with a regular power supply or will you provide an adapter for car cigarette lighters?
Got a full tank of hot grits and a penis bird in the glove box.
56K you say...methinks you mean 56k notice the case of the 'k'. A 20K connection is 160k. On the flip side a 56k modem has a theoretical speed of 7K but that speed is limited even further by the FCC/Line noise etc.
meept!
meept!
Idealy, who is your target audience? The computer novice who want to do web browsing and play you don't know jack games on their TV? The guru who wants to play the latest and greatet 3D drivil? The geek who says "hey neat, it runs linux! I wonder what I can do to void the waranty today?" All of the above maybe?
;)
How will developers respond? Will they embrace the platform or ignore it in favor of the PSX2. What software can we expect to be available the the platform is released?
And will it have an ethernet port darnit?
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
I wanna know if we can start one of those 'my distribution is better than yours' penis size contest.... since this things running linux. We can have the redhat kids over here going 'Its redhat! games will run better! you can upgrade with an rpm bla bla bla.....' ugh. anyways. you know the deal. god people. its linux. get over it
"sex on tv is bad, you might fall off..."
I lost my concept of community when my community lost all concept of me.
Okay, we've got PS2, X-Box, and Nintendo Game Cube coming along. Why do we need another game console, even though it does run Linux? What advantage will this game console actually have over the others? As far as game consoles go, I'm not going to go buy one because it "runs linux" . . .
Linux is great for server, development and even many desktops and I use it both at work and at home exclusively. HOWEVER, Linux is missing (or semi-missing) several pieces to make it an excellent gaming platform: easy to install/configure high-end graphics and, of course, DVD. From the Linux community's point of view, it's great that Indrema will be pushing to better these--but what is the advantage from the Indrema point of view? What possible advantages could Linux have that would make you overlook the glaring flaws that Linux has as a gaming platform?
--
Non-meta-modded "Overrated" mods are killing Slashdot
(Hey Ryan! Here's your proof!)
I have an HDTV set and I'm very interested in Indrema's HDTV support. Does this box decode OTA
HDTV signals? If not, is there an expansion board
planned to add this functionality?
Here is an idea my friend and I were thinking about. I am not sure if this is in the current API or not, but I have not heard any talk about it so I'm assuming not.
I'm assuming there is a way to get the input from the controller using your api. Is there a way to designate a player as either a local player, where it would get the button presses from the controller, or a remote player, where it would get the button presses over the ethernet from the remote host?
That would be awesome to just pass a parameter in the code and it would be network enabled, instead of having to write the code over the socket ourselves.
That way developers could have a single way of getting input from the players, and it wouldn't even matter if they were network players or not.
Another good feature would be like to have graphics that are remote, or local, or remote and local. Then if we were in a game where the view was the same for both players, you really wouldn't have to do anything on the network side. The graphics layer would just send the cords to the other side and automatically display it on the screen.
It would require coding on both sides, but one person could be the server doing all the work and the other would just be playing. It wouldn't send any graphics over, because they both have the games. Just the parameters that need to be sent over.
I don't know if that's more work than nessarray because the developer could do this himself, but if others would want that feature, then it would be something too look into possibly.
I would like to know your thoughs on this subject. Thanks.
I am wondering about developing on the system. I don't want to have to develop on my low end computer, and then after I am done transfer it on CD to the machine.
Is there going to be a way, that if I have the machine on the local network, that I can do all the editing on my local machine, compile it on my machine, but instead of running it on my machine, it could send it over the network to test my changes.
I would like to know if that is possible with your hardware. I am assuming there are no development tools on the machine, so coding and compiling on the local machine is fine, but I would like to test the changes on the gaming machine and not my local machine. Is this possible?
Also, I know you can download free games from your gaming network, but what if someone can't get high speed internet access yet? Would it be possible to burn anyone, like a friend, a regular CD and allow them to play the game? I listened to the Bay Area LUG and you made it sound like the only format games can be on is either downloaded or in DVD format.
This can be tied into that if you can't test your app on the machine through a network, you could atleast burn it on a CDRW and test it that way. Sure it would be slower, but it would be better than nothing, although the ethernet would be better solution.
Thanks!