GeForce 8800 release the first C-compiler environment for the GPU;
One more step toward GPU Raytracing. We're already pushing rediculous numbers of polygons, with less and less return for our efforts. The future lies in projects like OpenRT. With any luck, we'll start being able to blow holes through levels rather than having to run the rat-maze.;)
For once, I agree with dada21. Leave the internet alone. All this Net Neutrality flap is doing is ensuring that we'll be screwed one way or another. i.e. Senator Stevens will tell you that he's pro-Net Neutrality when his bill is actually anti-Net Neutrality. On the other hand, if you pass a law, you may make it impossible for ISPs to properly support time-sensitive services like VoIP. (VoIP being the use that Internet Tiering was originally designed for.)
The FCC is already regulating the situation, and will slap down any provider who improperly abuses their tiering abilities. So leave it the heck alone. Anytime Congress gets involved, we merely end up with the opposite of progress.
everywhere between those two extremes it gets pretty murky.
Unfortunately, it takes a judge to work out which case is fair use and which case isn't. If the song was performed for financial gain, for example, a judge might look at it as infringement rather than fair use. On the other hand, if Johnny "cutely" puts out a tip hat for his recital, a judge might still view that as fair use. In the end, it's all up to the common sense of the judge.
Of course, this entire story might still turn up to be another Onion story picked up by the mainstream press. (Because they check their facts so well.)
I have the same problem. My "Chief Lizard Wrangler" gag is visible from my list of posts, but is mislinked to a blank parent. Something weird is going on.
The IT industry does tend to overuse the term "engineer" a bit too much.
Funny thing, though. Software Engineering is a real discipline that doesn't get much attention. Instead, we abuse the crap out of Computer Scientist when the engineers aren't even close to real Computer Scientists. That one had me confused for quite a while. I kept wondering why there seemed to be two completely different types of Computer Scientist, except that one had more to do with mathematics and pie in the sky research rather than with writing code. (I've leave you to figure out which was which.)
Don't get me started on the difference between a "Computer Programmer" and Software Engineer.
Again incorrect, and more quoting from fansites rather than accurate sources.
In that case, fix your own damn fansite: "However, even with this initial success, the console did not fair well."
You're spreading disinformation, Mr. Site Director.
The Magnavox Odyssey sold about 375,000 units in its US release alone,
Neither Mr. Baer or PongStory have upped their esitmates from 350,000 units. If you have new information, you might want to share with them so that they're not spreading disinformation from their "fan sites".
That's hardly a "failure", and in fact is considered high sales for a pioneering product.
A pioneering product? Yes. A market success? I see no visible signs of that. 350,000 units is not too bad, but it's not great either. If you want to say that it was a success for a pinoeering product then that's a different thing all together. That doesn't make either of us "wrong", it means we have different perspectives. A perspective you apparently shared at one point, according to your "fan site".
And that is simply not true about not finding stores wanting to carry it because of the Odyssey (which was *only* carried in Magnavox stores and sellers), that's more heresy. They were initially looking for someone to sell the design to and none of the established arcade game companies wanted to enter the consumer market. So they went to the toy show that year in hopes of finding a toy company to OEM through and had no luck (once again, because it was considered a fad).
So which is it? Did the companies want to carry the product or not? Was their decision impacted by the sale of the Odyssey or not? Tune in next week for absolutely no conclusion at all!
Actual historians actually refer to Atari as I stated - creating the video arcade indistry and jumpstarting the home console industry.
Indeed. They had such a profound effect on the market that you could almost say they created the home console industry.:-/
He was one of several who "ran the company", which initially was a small engineering firm (with a partner) and by the time of the 2600 had a full executive board and middle management that approved and dissaproved projects.
So what you're saying is, founders should shoulder all the blame when something goes wrong, but receive none of the credit when things go right? Remember, I was responding to attempts to pin responsibility for the 5200, ET, and the Jaguar on him. He could not have been responsible for those failures, because he was not at the company. However, the 2600 did happen under his watch, making him partly responsible for it. I did not give him complete credit for the 2600, nor does he deserve it. But apparently, you wish to put those words in my mouth.
It is *completely* relevant because of those details, which you self admittedly "left out". The show your "less detailed" claim to be irrelevant.
No, it is not relevant. Again, I gave a two paragraph summary of events that described Bushnell's reign. I'm sorry if not everyone wants to write a book on the subject so that they can ensure that every little detail is communicated.
please call it what it is: 8-bit *personal computer* hardware
The common name for the collection of 8-Bit computers from Atari are collectively known as the "Atari 8-bits". Complaining about that is disingenuous. You know exactly what's being discussed, as does anyone else who knows what the 5200 and 8-Bit computer lines were.
You said specifically one of the reasons he quit because they wanted to release computers and he didn't want to.
Who told you that? The Wiimote is $39.99 and the Nunchuck is $19.99. Together, they're ~$60.00. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either lying or trying to rip you off.
If you look a bit lower in the thread, a couple of people have found the info on the bundle. I did a cost breakdown on the Wii bundle, so I figure it's only fair to do the same on the PS3.
Presumably, the "12 Month Product Replacement" thing would actually cost money, so it's safe to estimate a similar bundle as costing between $1200 and $1300.
That's +5 Funny material there. "We don't know, but our website does!":P
Okay, now for some figures:
Nintendo Wii Console: $250 SD 1GB: ~$20 Additional Wii Remote Controller: $40 ($60 if they throw in the Nunchuck) 6 Games: $50 x 6 = $300 12 Month Product Replacement Plan: Worthless Game Informer Gift Subscription: $19.98
A Wii with an extra 3 WiiMotes and Nunchucks would cost you $430. Add in the Classic Controller, the Lightgun attachment, and a few games, and you're at $700 in no time flat.
Like most of the next-gen systems, the Wii will nickel and dime you to death on accessories and connectivity. (The latter being things like classic games in the case of the Wii.) The difference is that the Wii has a lower base price, so the nickel and diming doesn't get quite as costly as the 360 or PS3.
Sorry, missed this part when I was sorting through your previous post:
Likewise, the controllers did not "fail within hours of use", you're missquoting again (taken from the comment on Curt's site "the rubber around the base would turn into tatters after only a few hours"). The rubber base was the poor man's "auto-centering" of the analog joysticks, and once these went it effected the games that required that sort of precision.
It is not incorrect, it is a simplification. I do not have all day to rant on about the oxydization of the membrane keys, the POTs not being clipped down (the POTs would often pop out, causing another failure in a very short period of time), the lack of springs, or the variety of other little issues that stopped the 5200 controllers from being decent. They could have been good controllers, but they weren't. For a one-sentence explanation, "failed within hours of use" is accurate; albeit not precise.
BTW, is that you Martin? You're being waaaay too nitpicky.
Actually, he's the guy who *co-founded* Atari and jumpstarted the video game industry.
Whatever happened to Dabney, anyway?
He did not "single-handedly create the Video Game Industry".
Ralph Baer single-handedly created video games. The Magnavox Odyssey was a complete failure, making Atari responsible for creating the Video Game industry.
PONG arcade sales simply helped sales of the Magnavox Odyssey
If that were true, then the Odyssey wouldn't have failed. (It was released to the market the same year as Pong.) Yet it failed. Utterly. Thanks to the Odyssey's failure, when Atari tried to market a home Pong, they couldn't find any stores that wanted to carry it! Atari eventually found an outlet for Pong through the sports section of Sears. It was a hit, thus creating the home console industry. Magnavox later released several other "Odyssey" (e.g. Odyssey 200, 1000, etc.) units that were merely Pong clones.
Actually, he was responsible for none of those save Space War and partiall PONG.
He ran the company. He made the decisions. Ergo, he was responsible for what the company did.
As reported by Alan in Steve Kent's book, if anything people had to *ignore* Nolan than listen to him or go to him for direction because he was often looking over people's shoulders and contradicting himself in his directions.
This is true. But this is way more detail than I got into above. It's also completely irrelevant to the topic.
No, 5200 was a much later system (are you assuming that was the proposed console because of hindsite?) and that's incorrect about the computers (probably just repeating stuff on fan sites).
Incorrect. The Atari 8-Bit hardware was intended as the next generation of game console hardware. Warner forced it to be used for the 8-bit computers, and started the 10-bit Stella project for the next game console. When the "Super-Stella" (aka Sylvia) project failed, the 5200 was born out of the 8-bit hardware.
The 2600 was intended for a short lifespan to create a more cost effective method of delivering Atari's then (1975-1976) popular arcade games to the home. It was only supposed to be on the market for a few years and replaced by a more capable console (and the design shows this).
Precisely. It was going to be replaced by the Atari 8-Bit hardware. That hardware was co-opted for the computer line, and the Sylvia project was started in its place.
Warner management didn't want to simply throw away the 2600 and wanted to extend its life. So they changed the project to a regular low end "gaming computer" and a higher end "business" computer which became known as the Atari 400 and 800 PCS's respectively
So now you're agreeing with me?
Unfortunately, the technology for the next console failed to work out, causing Atari to repackage an 8-Bit computer as a game console. (The 5200.) At that point, however, the 5200 was late to the market, overbuilt for being a game console, and had these poor analog controllers which failed within hours of use.
Again, not true. The technology did not fail to work out, it was developed. The problem was that the game developers complained
And again, you disagree with me while agreeing with me in the same breath. Whatever.
P.S. AtariMuseum is run by Curt Vendel. He's the creator of the Atari Flashback 2 system, and a bonafide Atari Historian. His site is not "some fan site", and I resent your implication that it is.
The real answer is that through the years Mr. Bushnell has founded over a dozen companies related to video games. In most cases, he was quite successful. Just because he no longer develops for the mainstream console market doesn't mean that his opinion is worthless.
What an interesting thread. The number of inaccuracies and outright falsehoods is amazing. For example:
Is this guy like the Dvorak of video games or something?
No, he's the guy who founded Atari, and single-handedly created the Video Game industry.
That said, I don't really care what some random asshat says about a yet-to-be-released console. What? Will slashdot start posting articles about my opinions?
Depends, did you invent the Video Game Industry? No? Then STFU.
Funny coming from a guy that works at one of the biggest failures in console hardware
Busnell was responsible for Atari's early arcade games, their Pong machines, and the Atari 2600. Save for the poor showing of the Space War arcade game, none of those were abject failures.
Not sure if I'd trust a person whose company was responsible for multiple failed consoles (Jaguar, 5200, ET the game, to name a few).
Bushnell left Atari in 1978, partly because of a disagreement over the 5200 strategy. Warner wanted to branch out into computers (the Atari 400/800) while Bushnell wanted to keep the 8-bit technology for the next game console. Warner effectively pushed him out of the company, at which point he went on to dedicate his energies to the highly successful Pizza Time restaurant. (Known today as "Chuck E. Cheeses".)
Warner continued with their 8-bit computer plans, while developing new technology for the next console. Unfortunately, the technology for the next console failed to work out, causing Atari to repackage an 8-Bit computer as a game console. (The 5200.) At that point, however, the 5200 was late to the market, overbuilt for being a game console, and had these poor analog controllers which failed within hours of use. It was absolutely nothing like the original vision for the console, and failed from a combination of consumer pushback and Atari's own failure to support it.
E.T. was a rush job to get an E.T. licensed game out for Christmas 1982. That was another Warner/Atari failure. The video game crash caused the company to be sold to Jack Tramiel (of Commodore fame) who gutted the company. Tramiel's legacy was the poorly supported Atari 7800, the Atari Lynx, and the Atari Jaguar.
Actually, from a business perspective, he was quite successful. He sold Atari to Warner Brothers. He wasn't around when Atari was burying E.T. game cartridges into a landfill.
I realize that the seemingly correct thing to do is to stay at home. But all that does is ensure the tyranny of those with an agenda. This stuff isn't rocket science. There are not that many candidates to choose from, and you're chosing the lesser of two evils anyway.
Get Informed. Get to the Ballot. Get your vote counted.
Slashdot Mirror
One more step toward GPU Raytracing. We're already pushing rediculous numbers of polygons, with less and less return for our efforts. The future lies in projects like OpenRT. With any luck, we'll start being able to blow holes through levels rather than having to run the rat-maze.
For once, I agree with dada21. Leave the internet alone. All this Net Neutrality flap is doing is ensuring that we'll be screwed one way or another. i.e. Senator Stevens will tell you that he's pro-Net Neutrality when his bill is actually anti-Net Neutrality. On the other hand, if you pass a law, you may make it impossible for ISPs to properly support time-sensitive services like VoIP. (VoIP being the use that Internet Tiering was originally designed for.)
The FCC is already regulating the situation, and will slap down any provider who improperly abuses their tiering abilities. So leave it the heck alone. Anytime Congress gets involved, we merely end up with the opposite of progress.
Unfortunately, it takes a judge to work out which case is fair use and which case isn't. If the song was performed for financial gain, for example, a judge might look at it as infringement rather than fair use. On the other hand, if Johnny "cutely" puts out a tip hat for his recital, a judge might still view that as fair use. In the end, it's all up to the common sense of the judge.
Of course, this entire story might still turn up to be another Onion story picked up by the mainstream press. (Because they check their facts so well.)
In response to this post
I have the same problem. My "Chief Lizard Wrangler" gag is visible from my list of posts, but is mislinked to a blank parent. Something weird is going on.
I have the same problem. My "Chief Lizard Wrangler" gag is visible from my list of posts, but is mislinked to a blank parent. Something weird is going on.
(Let's hope you see this!)
Funny thing, though. Software Engineering is a real discipline that doesn't get much attention. Instead, we abuse the crap out of Computer Scientist when the engineers aren't even close to real Computer Scientists. That one had me confused for quite a while. I kept wondering why there seemed to be two completely different types of Computer Scientist, except that one had more to do with mathematics and pie in the sky research rather than with writing code. (I've leave you to figure out which was which.)
Don't get me started on the difference between a "Computer Programmer" and Software Engineer.
I'm partial to "Chief Lizard Wrangler" myself.
For the record, I'm not trying to be negative. Just stating the facts ma'am... er... sir! :P
In that case, fix your own damn fansite: "However, even with this initial success, the console did not fair well."
You're spreading disinformation, Mr. Site Director.
Neither Mr. Baer or PongStory have upped their esitmates from 350,000 units. If you have new information, you might want to share with them so that they're not spreading disinformation from their "fan sites".
A pioneering product? Yes. A market success? I see no visible signs of that. 350,000 units is not too bad, but it's not great either. If you want to say that it was a success for a pinoeering product then that's a different thing all together. That doesn't make either of us "wrong", it means we have different perspectives. A perspective you apparently shared at one point, according to your "fan site".
So which is it? Did the companies want to carry the product or not? Was their decision impacted by the sale of the Odyssey or not? Tune in next week for absolutely no conclusion at all!
Indeed. They had such a profound effect on the market that you could almost say they created the home console industry. :-/
So what you're saying is, founders should shoulder all the blame when something goes wrong, but receive none of the credit when things go right? Remember, I was responding to attempts to pin responsibility for the 5200, ET, and the Jaguar on him. He could not have been responsible for those failures, because he was not at the company. However, the 2600 did happen under his watch, making him partly responsible for it. I did not give him complete credit for the 2600, nor does he deserve it. But apparently, you wish to put those words in my mouth.
No, it is not relevant. Again, I gave a two paragraph summary of events that described Bushnell's reign. I'm sorry if not everyone wants to write a book on the subject so that they can ensure that every little detail is communicated.
The common name for the collection of 8-Bit computers from Atari are collectively known as the "Atari 8-bits". Complaining about that is disingenuous. You know exactly what's being discussed, as does anyone else who knows what the 5200 and 8-Bit computer lines were.
Actually, I never said that he did
Who told you that? The Wiimote is $39.99 and the Nunchuck is $19.99. Together, they're ~$60.00. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either lying or trying to rip you off.
PS3 Premium System: $600
==No Expansion Storage Necessary==
Additional PS3 Sixaxis Controller: $50
6 Games: $80 x 6 = $480
12 Month Product Replacement Plan: Still Worthless
Game Informer Subscription: $19.98
Add it up:Presumably, the "12 Month Product Replacement" thing would actually cost money, so it's safe to estimate a similar bundle as costing between $1200 and $1300.
Okay, now for some figures:
Nintendo Wii Console: $250
SD 1GB: ~$20
Additional Wii Remote Controller: $40 ($60 if they throw in the Nunchuck)
6 Games: $50 x 6 = $300
12 Month Product Replacement Plan: Worthless
Game Informer Gift Subscription: $19.98
Add it up:If you assume that the "12 Month Warranty" costs $70.00, then you're up to $700 without the extra Nunchuck.
A Wii with an extra 3 WiiMotes and Nunchucks would cost you $430. Add in the Classic Controller, the Lightgun attachment, and a few games, and you're at $700 in no time flat.
Like most of the next-gen systems, the Wii will nickel and dime you to death on accessories and connectivity. (The latter being things like classic games in the case of the Wii.) The difference is that the Wii has a lower base price, so the nickel and diming doesn't get quite as costly as the 360 or PS3.
It is not incorrect, it is a simplification. I do not have all day to rant on about the oxydization of the membrane keys, the POTs not being clipped down (the POTs would often pop out, causing another failure in a very short period of time), the lack of springs, or the variety of other little issues that stopped the 5200 controllers from being decent. They could have been good controllers, but they weren't. For a one-sentence explanation, "failed within hours of use" is accurate; albeit not precise.
BTW, is that you Martin? You're being waaaay too nitpicky.
Whatever happened to Dabney, anyway?
Ralph Baer single-handedly created video games. The Magnavox Odyssey was a complete failure, making Atari responsible for creating the Video Game industry.
If that were true, then the Odyssey wouldn't have failed. (It was released to the market the same year as Pong.) Yet it failed. Utterly. Thanks to the Odyssey's failure, when Atari tried to market a home Pong, they couldn't find any stores that wanted to carry it! Atari eventually found an outlet for Pong through the sports section of Sears. It was a hit, thus creating the home console industry. Magnavox later released several other "Odyssey" (e.g. Odyssey 200, 1000, etc.) units that were merely Pong clones.
He ran the company. He made the decisions. Ergo, he was responsible for what the company did.
This is true. But this is way more detail than I got into above. It's also completely irrelevant to the topic.
Incorrect. The Atari 8-Bit hardware was intended as the next generation of game console hardware. Warner forced it to be used for the 8-bit computers, and started the 10-bit Stella project for the next game console. When the "Super-Stella" (aka Sylvia) project failed, the 5200 was born out of the 8-bit hardware.
Precisely. It was going to be replaced by the Atari 8-Bit hardware. That hardware was co-opted for the computer line, and the Sylvia project was started in its place.
So now you're agreeing with me?
And again, you disagree with me while agreeing with me in the same breath. Whatever.
P.S. AtariMuseum is run by Curt Vendel. He's the creator of the Atari Flashback 2 system, and a bonafide Atari Historian. His site is not "some fan site", and I resent your implication that it is.
Funny. I saw that same story on the apwire the other day. Now where did I find that link... ? Oh yeah! On Slashdot!
I don't think so...
I still don't think so...
Nobody buys his games anymore. They just play them.
The real answer is that through the years Mr. Bushnell has founded over a dozen companies related to video games. In most cases, he was quite successful. Just because he no longer develops for the mainstream console market doesn't mean that his opinion is worthless.
Sorry, dude. I hate to do this to someone who's friended me, but you really need to bite your tongue on this one. Especially since this was already discussed. :(
No, he's the guy who founded Atari, and single-handedly created the Video Game industry.
Depends, did you invent the Video Game Industry? No? Then STFU.
Busnell was responsible for Atari's early arcade games, their Pong machines, and the Atari 2600. Save for the poor showing of the Space War arcade game, none of those were abject failures.
Bushnell left Atari in 1978, partly because of a disagreement over the 5200 strategy. Warner wanted to branch out into computers (the Atari 400/800) while Bushnell wanted to keep the 8-bit technology for the next game console. Warner effectively pushed him out of the company, at which point he went on to dedicate his energies to the highly successful Pizza Time restaurant. (Known today as "Chuck E. Cheeses".)
Warner continued with their 8-bit computer plans, while developing new technology for the next console. Unfortunately, the technology for the next console failed to work out, causing Atari to repackage an 8-Bit computer as a game console. (The 5200.) At that point, however, the 5200 was late to the market, overbuilt for being a game console, and had these poor analog controllers which failed within hours of use. It was absolutely nothing like the original vision for the console, and failed from a combination of consumer pushback and Atari's own failure to support it.
E.T. was a rush job to get an E.T. licensed game out for Christmas 1982. That was another Warner/Atari failure. The video game crash caused the company to be sold to Jack Tramiel (of Commodore fame) who gutted the company. Tramiel's legacy was the poorly supported Atari 7800, the Atari Lynx, and the Atari Jaguar.
*sigh*
Bushnell Leaves Atari: 1978
Atari Releases 5200: 1982
Warner sells Atari: 1984
Jaguar Released: 1993
Hallelujah! Someone who actually got it right!
Bushnell left Atari in 1978. Methinks he didn't have anything to do with the Jaguar, 5200, or E.T.
Doesn't anyone pay attention to history?
Oh? Where would that be? I seem to remember that the Atari 2600 was anything but a huge failure.
So, did it take 20 minutes to copy the file through that AJAX interface? (rolls eyes)
Friends, I would like you to meet the newest Slashdot troll. The "AJAX performance is terrible!" troll.
Unless, of course, you'd like to actually provide a few examples of these "AJAX-based Webforums" that suck so much?
You have three choices:
- Get hit with a metal bat
- Get hit with a backhand slap
- Find a way to turn the tables and escape
In voting, you have three options:
- Choose Candidate A
- Choose Candidate B
- Run For Office
The reason why the options are so unappealing is because the population regularly misses that last item there.
I realize that the seemingly correct thing to do is to stay at home. But all that does is ensure the tyranny of those with an agenda. This stuff isn't rocket science. There are not that many candidates to choose from, and you're chosing the lesser of two evils anyway.
Get Informed.
Get to the Ballot.
Get your vote counted.
Period, end of story.
1. You've got #2 and #3 backwards.
2. #3 should be "For more pay!"
3. You'll do even better if you eliminate #1...
"Why yes, my name is Suresh Gauri Shah Babu Ajay Subra Dinesh Bob!"
[...]
"Bob?"
[...]
"He's the guy we outsourced to in America. There's a talent shortage, you know."