"I don't see many structural engineers actually welding steel, many chemists pumping gas, or many electrical engineers wiring houses."
And I don't see many CS's assembling 8 bits into bytes by hand. What I do see is structural engineers, chemists, and electrical engineers relying on computer software that incorporates their disciplines' knowledge to help them do their jobs.
"The thing about MS is that we know that they buy up the best talent in the business and still deliver garbage. MS Research exists almost entirely to stop other companies getting their hands on good CS people. I think you can attribute MS's "shoddy engineering" to malice."
Yes, I'm sure the "best talent" is so pleased at being able to brag that they work for Microsoft that they don't mind if their work ends up in the bit-bucket.
Yeah, if Berners-Lee had just followed the standards of the time and used straight ASCII we wouldn't have to worry about all this jpeg, HTML, javascript, AJAX.. stuff.
"When your boss insists on a Windows solution because he's read some article that said it's 'better' even though the task at hand could be better done another way - that's marketing."
If the article was a MS advertisement, yes that would be marketing and he should be smart enough to take the claims with a grain of salt. If it wasn't then it was just somebody's opinion that you happen to disagree with.
The whole "Microsoft is a marketing company" concept was just another attempt to explain why they're successful without admitting they produced anything of value.
I guess you can't compare them, but those with business degrees can become managers as part of the natural evolution of their careers. Those who majored in CS are nearly changing careers when they go into management.
The point is that I believe that the cost/benefit ratio is better now for business graduates than CS graduates. Of course, that doesn't take things like job satisfaction into account.
I understand what you're saying, but I've always had sympathy for IT people in a technical company. I'm glad that you appreciate them, but I think you underestimate their contribution and knowledge. Yes, your PhDs are probably smarter than your IT folks but that doesn't mean they know how to keep computers and networks running smoothly.
Sure, unnecessary tweaking and obscure code meant only to show off has always been bad thing, but there was a time when it was absolutely necessary if you wanted your application to have any practical value. Having manageable code is great but it doesn't do much good if your application sucks.
"Programmers and scientists entering these fields are aware of F/OSS and believe they can live with the market as-is."
OK, as long as you mean those "entering these fields" today understand this. You have heard that enrollments have been dropping lately though - perhaps this is part of the reason.
The question is whether the best students are interested in a potentially dead-end career.
"The bottom line is that closed source software has to step up its game with non-trivial innovations or even price cuts if they intend to stay competitive in a market where all it takes is a sufficiently motivated volunteer to produce a useable product."
Well, I'm still of the opinion that FOSS applications are still in the "me too" mode rather than doing much innovation.
Also, as I implied earlier, I think that some of the FOSS work is being done for free by people who have proprietary day jobs. If those jobs disappear and fewer people choose a software-related field, who will do the FOSS work in the future?
Slashdot Mirror
Notes was just one in a long line of supposed Wndows "killers". You were supposed to make apps in Notes and ignore Windows.
You mean because people with CS degrees are writing software?
Seriously, poorly written software has little to do with one's skill at creating algorithms. It's really more about how meticulous you are.
Thanks for the correction. You obviously know more about what I think than I do.
That's marketing talk!
Do No Evil - unless you're Apple
The parent was ahh ... some kind of Garden of Eden joke.
Do No Evil - unless your Apple
"I don't see many structural engineers actually welding steel, many chemists pumping gas, or many electrical engineers wiring houses."
And I don't see many CS's assembling 8 bits into bytes by hand. What I do see is structural engineers, chemists, and electrical engineers relying on computer software that incorporates their disciplines' knowledge to help them do their jobs.
"I continual run in to programmers and "engineers" that don't even understand how a computer subtracts binary numbers."
Given the fact that most programmers implement binary subtraction algorithms on a daily basis .. oh wait.
OK, so those with CS degrees shouldn't be working as developers. Outside of academia I don't see much economic value in "pure" CS.
I don't know about longer school years but the US has never had a shortage of racist Supreme Court Justices.
"The thing about MS is that we know that they buy up the best talent in the business and still deliver garbage. MS Research exists almost entirely to stop other companies getting their hands on good CS people. I think you can attribute MS's "shoddy engineering" to malice."
Yes, I'm sure the "best talent" is so pleased at being able to brag that they work for Microsoft that they don't mind if their work ends up in the bit-bucket.
Funny, I thought the control should rest with the authors of the site. Who elected the spec writers as decision makers?
Yeah, if Berners-Lee had just followed the standards of the time and used straight ASCII we wouldn't have to worry about all this jpeg, HTML, javascript, AJAX .. stuff.
"When your boss insists on a Windows solution because he's read some article that said it's 'better' even though the task at hand could be better done another way - that's marketing."
If the article was a MS advertisement, yes that would be marketing and he should be smart enough to take the claims with a grain of salt. If it wasn't then it was just somebody's opinion that you happen to disagree with.
"The marketing for Windows 95 was masterful."
In what way?
Microsoft has always had bad marketing.
The whole "Microsoft is a marketing company" concept was just another attempt to explain why they're successful without admitting they produced anything of value.
Funny, but too obscure for all but the most devoted Slashdotters.
Microsoft has always been poor at Marketing.
I guess you can't compare them, but those with business degrees can become managers as part of the natural evolution of their careers. Those who majored in CS are nearly changing careers when they go into management.
The point is that I believe that the cost/benefit ratio is better now for business graduates than CS graduates. Of course, that doesn't take things like job satisfaction into account.
You may be right, but by what percentage? How does a CS career pay after 20 years experience vs. a business degree?
OK, but how does it compare to the salaries of other college-educated Americans?
I understand what you're saying, but I've always had sympathy for IT people in a technical company. I'm glad that you appreciate them, but I think you underestimate their contribution and knowledge. Yes, your PhDs are probably smarter than your IT folks but that doesn't mean they know how to keep computers and networks running smoothly.
You're thinking from today's perspective.
Sure, unnecessary tweaking and obscure code meant only to show off has always been bad thing, but there was a time when it was absolutely necessary if you wanted your application to have any practical value. Having manageable code is great but it doesn't do much good if your application sucks.
I don't know and neither do you. But I note that there were plenty of "undesirable" Shia still living in Iraq at the time we occupied it.
"Programmers and scientists entering these fields are aware of F/OSS and believe they can live with the market as-is."
OK, as long as you mean those "entering these fields" today understand this. You have heard that enrollments have been dropping lately though - perhaps this is part of the reason.
The question is whether the best students are interested in a potentially dead-end career.
"The bottom line is that closed source software has to step up its game with non-trivial innovations or even price cuts if they intend to stay competitive in a market where all it takes is a sufficiently motivated volunteer to produce a useable product."
Well, I'm still of the opinion that FOSS applications are still in the "me too" mode rather than doing much innovation.
Also, as I implied earlier, I think that some of the FOSS work is being done for free by people who have proprietary day jobs. If those jobs disappear and fewer people choose a software-related field, who will do the FOSS work in the future?