I spent a large perportion of my childhood playing Iron Ox and LORE on two local BBS's. The first modem I used ran at 1200bps.
My first two OS's were Minix, and DOS 3.2 My first games were animal, and ttt, on Minix, and Space Quest on DOS. The computer this all ran on was a 12Mhz 286 with 2MB of RAM. (The next computer was a 486 DX2/66 with 8MB RAM. Next was a P3/500 with 128MB RAM. Now I have my own computer... Duron 1.2Ghz:-)
I never actually used dBase, but knew the name Ashton was used in it because my father used dBase, and I had read the intro's of some books for it.
BTW My father had nothing to do with my name. If he had his way I would have been named after one of many car model/brands. His first choice was Austin. My mother got my name from a character in a very religious novel.
Here. I ripped this wholesale another persons post.
---- A mutation can be a point mutation (change of information at one point within the genome), a deletion (loss of a nucleotide) or insertion (increase of information by one nucleotide). Any of these changes will change the nature of the sequence of the expressed protein, and may lead to loss of function, change of function or increase in efficiency of function. Mutations provide the de novo alteration of the genome. But not necessarily an increase in information, unlike the example I will discuss below
A well documented phenomenon in biology is that of "unequal crossing over' during meiosis. During meosis (the process whereby germ cells such as eggs and sperm as formed), the chromosomes are duplicated and four haploid cells emerge (each with a half genome). When these recombine with another haploid (ie sperm + egg) we get a fertilized egg. During meosis, the chromosomes undergo a shuffling, which is called recombination. During this recombination, the genome is shuffled with (ideally) each chromosome getting a new combination of old alleles. However, in some cases there is unequal recombination, and one chromosome ends up with both copies of a particular gene, and the other chromosome with no copies. When these gametes go their separate ways one of them (missing a vital gene) may eventually die, whereas the other has N+1 copies of the allele. This extra allele may then be subject to less constraint during subsequent mitotic/meotic duplication. If errors occur because of point, insertion or deletion mutation and it is not a burden on the cell, that extra new information is carried in the genome. Further selection may change the sequence of the gene slightly if the new sequence confers a slightly altered novel function for the expressed protein. We see evidence of this in what are called gene families. It is called "Duplication and Divergence". For example many of the genes in the globin family (protein that carries O2 and CO2 in blood) are obviously altered copies of each other, similarly, in rodents there are multi-gene families of serine proteinase inhibitors (proteins that regulate proteolysis). In humans there are not gene families of serpins, but all serpins (such as antithrombin, antichymotrypsin, plasminogen activator inhibitor I, II and III) are related to the archetype (alpha 1-proteinase inhibitor). Further some genes for human serpins are located close to pseudogenes. Pseudogenes are duplicated genes which did not get selected for on the basis of a change of function, are non-functional ie not expressed, but are not enough of a burden on the genome to disappear. Chimps and Hominids share some pseudogenes, suggesting that the unequal crossing over event took place before chimps and hominods split from their ancestor. Thus unequal crossing over provides an increase in genetic information in a subset of cells that go on to survive and reproduce.
Further, it has long been known that some plants are polyploid ie they contain entire genome duplications, mots common food crops are polyploid. The phenomenon is documented also for some frogs. Recent evidence is showing that major changes in evolution occur as a result of entire genome duplication (the theory was put forward in the 60's by a Japanese Scientist whose name escapes me, but a search at "Science' should bring up a recent article on the subject). Genome sequencing efforts of a variety of species have revealed the tell-tale trail of genome duplication.
Now obviously, duplicating a gene or a genome results in a net increase in genetic information.
(See the discussion in P. Gingerich et al, "Hind Limbs of Eocene Basilosaurus: Evidence of Feet in Whales," Science 249, July 13, 1990, p. 154).
Why would an animal be born with traces of legs when it currently has no use for legs? That the vestigial stumps have no functional purpose in modern whales is obvious. How, then, are we to explain the case of the whale's vestigial structures in a logical manner?
No, creationists are the ones claiming you can get something out of nothing. (A god appeared out of nothing, and created universe out of nothing more than a few words).
Evolutionist say that you can have a complex entity form from a less complex entity, or visa-versa
Now please define information, and please define an increase in information.
You have not given any real counter-evidence. You may be right that super germs are not an example of recent spontaneous mutations, but they are an excellent example of natural selection.
Okay. Like you said, let's define terms. Here is a good definition of evolution: '"Evolution," in the context most biologists intend to use it, is correctly defined simply as "descent with modification."' (Robert Moss)
New lets look for some evidence. Hmm. Don't suppose you have ever heard of a study on the beaks of finches in the Galapagos? I an not talking about what Darwin saw, but what a more recent investigation led by Peter Grant found. His work is a great example of natural selection, a major part of evolution.
Now you are saying... 'that is only natural selection... we have no more species than before, no information gain.'
So now we get to the second half of evolution, change/mutation of genes. Much of an organism is defined by its genes. There is little argument about this, even from creationists. Forgetting natural selection, let's think about the reproduction of simple lifeforms. 'Either there is variation (mutation) or the cells copy themselves perfectly, every single generation, with absolutely no mistakes. Given entropy, that's just not possible! Mistakes are inevitable.' (Robert Moss). Mutations do occur. But as you said, in the case of resistant bacteria, these are not information gaining mutations. Mutations never gain information. That isn't how it works. Mutations are about changing information.
So how does a genome gain information? Let's imagine a hypothetical organism with one gene in a resource rich world. It reproduces constantly. Those organisms that have fatally deleterious mutations never breed. Those with other mutations breed at different rates, but since this is a resource rich world, all survive, and share their mutations with their neighbors. There is no speciation occurring, just one species with a single gene that constantly changing. They are a pretty homogeneous group. Let's suppose this group got split in two. We have two separate colonies quickly becoming different species. But still we have single gene organisms. This goes on for a while, the two different species become adept at two different ways for getting energy out of the resources available. Suddenly the colonies join again. The organisms are not so different that they can't still exchange genetic information, but are different enough that their genes cannot merge into a single hybrid gene. There is now some organisms with two genes. Both these genes have different methods of turning available resources into energy. All these bacteria have been growing exponentially for sometime now. We have different species because this is a big world and the resources vary, and some of those species now have multiple genes. Suddenly we find that they have taken up all available area, and now must compete. Natural really kicks in, and many of the weaker variations of the major species disappear. This world now has many distinctly different species, and some of these species have more genetic information than others. All the processes that I have described continue to occur. Sometimes there is a major event that knocks out most of the life, allowing new species to come to dominance. There is constant variation in the environment of this world, creating niches for organisms to specialize in. At some period a species develops the ability to join with others and becomes multi-cellular. This species finds it survives especially well in some niches. Et cetera, et cetera, until today, where all this evolution has resulted in todays world. Sorry, I forgot to include individual genes growing in size/complexity. I am tired.
We have established that change and natural selection both happen. I have also demonstrated a method to gain new genes. Evolution doesn't make any claims about the origin of life, just how life became to be a diverse as it is today.
We have reached the moon, but apathy overtook us when we realised that now Russia has been beaten there was no prestigious reason to return time and time again.
The best reason to go to the moon is redundancy. Some major catastrophe happens on earth, and we will still survive.
What do you mean 'whether or not evolution really happened'?
It is still happening. You can watch it happen in our hospitals right this very moment. Take a look at those people with drug resistant bacterial infections... some of these bacteria simply didn't exist 10 years ago. They are all descendants of older non resistant bacteria's.
Evolution never stopped, and cannot be stopped.
I place people who don't believe in evolution with people who think the world is flat in the the same group... stubbornly blind followers of dogma.
I can show you evidence of evolution... now can you show me evidence of creation, or a god?
If every Aussie is angry at the ISP, it's a wide open door for a new ISP with no capping to come in and make a lot of money
Do you have any idea how much it would cost to lay out a new network in Australia, then connect it to the world?
We are not talking a few billion here.
When anyone spends the money to lay this wire down, and then connections to the US, do you think they'll be charging a nice low price.
There are only a few companies in Australia that have physical infrastructure (mainly Telstra and Optus), and everyone else buys from them.
You started cheating after dying for the 6th time?
When I introduced nethack (in the falconseye variant) to my brother, he had dies over 40 times and gotten to level 16 before he went searching for cheats. Then he found out about debug mode and the wonders it allowed. He only stayed interested for another week.
He hasn't played it for about 2 months now, but with this new versions, I'm going to compile it myself, with every cheating method disabled.
Anyway, why didn't you just read the help files and use the 'explore' mode.
The real fun is in the challenges, like seeing how far in the game you can get without food. Or without ever fighting with a weapon.
The dependency and dependency resolution system- dpkg has the most advanced dependency system known to unix. No dobut to that... To solve these dependencies, dpkg goes to it's list of package locations (complete with http and ftp locations, cdroms, etc.. if necessary) and grabs the required packages from the net (the user is prompted on this, of course)
Umm, apt that does all that.
(note: debian isn't updated often, so this is generally unappreciated)
Debian is being constantly updated. If you are refering to the 'potato/stable' branch, then it in rarely updated. But 'woody' and 'sid' are being updated very often.
I'm not sure what else there is that makes it good. But RPM certainly doesn't have these features.
There is a version of apt-get for rpms that had recently been released. Not quite at the debian level, but still better than nothing.
It's buggy as hell - it's easier then signing up for aol to nuke your system this way (in other words, it happens quite often by accident)
I've never experienced any bug's in either apt or dpkg, though I've never used the sid/unstable branch. (And if I had used sid/unstable, I would have no right to complain about bugs, just to report them on bugs.debian.org).
No good front-ends - There is no good program to browse available packages, install them, enter configuration information (more on that in a sec) and remove them. You should enter the package you want to install. a wizard is displayed, it grabs the package from a mirror or local source, solves dependecies, installs it and any dependent packages, configures it, and exits.
Aptitude, Deity? What is wrong with them? (Make sure you get them from woody)
Configuration - dpkg has a system that allows the package to prompt for a few options before it is installed. this is a good thing, but the packages usually don't ask enough. users need full customization (nothing nitpicky. big stuff... so you dont have do manually edit configuration files by hand
If every package asked many questions then you would never finish an install. Anyway, debian lets you choose the amount and importance of the questions you are asked. Thats what debconf is all about. And compare it to redhat, where you aren't asked any package specific questions during install.
Available packages - this is where dpkg falls flat on it's face. 95% of unix packages are rpms. that never helps. a unified packaging system needs to be put into place.
Woody has 8602 packages atm. Debian does have a unified packaging system. All packages use the same package format, are found, retrieved, and installed using the same applications, and are kept together in a central location ( ftp.debian.org - and its mirrors). Nothing else compares.
i dunno what i forgot?
I dunno, what other debian fallacies can you think up.
Hrmm. That description sounds like usage behaviours of people from all countries.
An example; How many American's are interested in looking at Danish news sites, or Australian news sites, or Indian news sites? (and do so regularly). Few, most of them read local American news, usually owned and controlled by huge media corporations.
Of course the Chinese mostly read their local news, and other local sites. The last Chinese exchange student I had board at our house used the Internet just to look at games.sina.com.cn He rarely left the sina domains.
Why should we assume that the Chinese are interested in our news. How many western people do you know of who are interested in China's stamp tax changes, or of the mass tree planting in Beijing?
I must have fallen asleep, because I'm sure that last time I checked, China had approx 1.269 billion, and America had approx 277 million.
This is in a world with approx 6,273,000,000 people.
Here are a few other high population countries.
1001 million for India
216 million for Indonesia
172 million for Brazil
152 million for Pakistan
147 million for Russia
127 million for Bangladesh
127 million for Japan
114 million for Nigeria
100 million for Mexico
I think that is all the countries with over 100 million people
Easy to say.
Making ozone may be simple, but how do you recommend getting it to the correct altitude (it breaks down quickly at various altitudes below, and above, the actual ozone layer) and how do you disperse it thinly over 30 million sqaure killometers?
Slashdot Mirror
Linux has no Outlook, Microsoft Windows has no AIGLX, and Mac OSX has no Rhythmbox!
It's old news now: http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoo m/0,,51_104_543~110899,00.html
2007
archive.org might be a good site for such a collection.
Sorry, it really is easy to use.
Try telling that to my mother.
Or two-thirds of the users on my network.
Windows is NOT easy to use (or learn), especially for normal people with serious jobs to do.
Seconded. Mod the parent up.
Don't slashdot readers pay any attention to world affairs? GE crops are not the real issue here.
Or folding proteins. (Need a faily fast computer to be useful. ie. >500Mhz)
Folding@Home
:P I knew where the reference came from.
:-)
I spent a large perportion of my childhood playing Iron Ox and LORE on two local BBS's. The first modem I used ran at 1200bps.
My first two OS's were Minix, and DOS 3.2
My first games were animal, and ttt, on Minix, and Space Quest on DOS.
The computer this all ran on was a 12Mhz 286 with 2MB of RAM. (The next computer was a 486 DX2/66 with 8MB RAM. Next was a P3/500 with 128MB RAM. Now I have my own computer... Duron 1.2Ghz
I never actually used dBase, but knew the name Ashton was used in it because my father used dBase, and I had read the intro's of some books for it.
BTW My father had nothing to do with my name. If he had his way I would have been named after one of many car model/brands. His first choice was Austin.
My mother got my name from a character in a very religious novel.
Don't forget all time wasted swapping those bloated libraries in and out of memory to make room for some actual data.
My computer rarely, if ever, swaps. And I've only got 256MB ram.
What is geeky about the name Ashton?
Here. I ripped this wholesale another persons post.
----
A mutation can be a point mutation (change of information at one point within the genome), a deletion (loss of a nucleotide) or insertion (increase of information by one nucleotide). Any of these changes will change the nature of the sequence of the expressed protein, and may lead to loss of function, change of function or increase in efficiency of function. Mutations provide the de novo alteration of the genome. But not necessarily an increase in information, unlike the example I will discuss below
A well documented phenomenon in biology is that of "unequal crossing over' during meiosis. During meosis (the process whereby germ cells such as eggs and sperm as formed), the chromosomes are duplicated and four haploid cells emerge (each with a half genome). When these recombine with another haploid (ie sperm + egg) we get a fertilized egg. During meosis, the chromosomes undergo a shuffling, which is called recombination. During this recombination, the genome is shuffled with (ideally) each chromosome getting a new combination of old alleles. However, in some cases there is unequal recombination, and one chromosome ends up with both copies of a particular gene, and the other chromosome with no copies. When these gametes go their separate ways one of them (missing a vital gene) may eventually die, whereas the other has N+1 copies of the allele. This extra allele may then be subject to less constraint during subsequent mitotic/meotic duplication. If errors occur because of point, insertion or deletion mutation and it is not a burden on the cell, that extra new information is carried in the genome. Further selection may change the sequence of the gene slightly if the new sequence confers a slightly altered novel function for the expressed protein. We see evidence of this in what are called gene families. It is called "Duplication and Divergence". For example many of the genes in the globin family (protein that carries O2 and CO2 in blood) are obviously altered copies of each other, similarly, in rodents there are multi-gene families of serine proteinase inhibitors (proteins that regulate proteolysis). In humans there are not gene families of serpins, but all serpins (such as antithrombin, antichymotrypsin, plasminogen activator inhibitor I, II and III) are related to the archetype (alpha 1-proteinase inhibitor). Further some genes for human serpins are located close to pseudogenes. Pseudogenes are duplicated genes which did not get selected for on the basis of a change of function, are non-functional ie not expressed, but are not enough of a burden on the genome to disappear. Chimps and Hominids share some pseudogenes, suggesting that the unequal crossing over event took place before chimps and hominods split from their ancestor. Thus unequal crossing over provides an increase in genetic information in a subset of cells that go on to survive and reproduce.
Further, it has long been known that some plants are polyploid ie they contain entire genome duplications, mots common food crops are polyploid. The phenomenon is documented also for some frogs. Recent evidence is showing that major changes in evolution occur as a result of entire genome duplication (the theory was put forward in the 60's by a Japanese Scientist whose name escapes me, but a search at "Science' should bring up a recent article on the subject). Genome sequencing efforts of a variety of species have revealed the tell-tale trail of genome duplication.
Now obviously, duplicating a gene or a genome results in a net increase in genetic information.
No-one can argue with that, can they?
----
Thanx Steen
(See the discussion in P. Gingerich et al, "Hind Limbs of Eocene Basilosaurus: Evidence of Feet in Whales," Science 249, July 13, 1990, p. 154).
Why would an animal be born with traces of legs when it currently has no use for legs?
That the vestigial stumps have no functional purpose in modern whales is obvious.
How, then, are we to explain the case of the whale's vestigial structures in a logical manner?
No, creationists are the ones claiming you can get something out of nothing.
(A god appeared out of nothing, and created universe out of nothing more than a few words).
Evolutionist say that you can have a complex entity form from a less complex entity, or visa-versa
Now please define information, and please define an increase in information.
You have not given any real counter-evidence. You may be right that super germs are not an example of recent spontaneous mutations, but they are an excellent example of natural selection.
Okay. Like you said, let's define terms. Here is a good definition of evolution:
'"Evolution," in the context most biologists intend to use it, is correctly defined simply as "descent with modification."' (Robert Moss)
New lets look for some evidence. Hmm. Don't suppose you have ever heard of a study on the beaks of finches in the Galapagos? I an not talking about what Darwin saw, but what a more recent investigation led by Peter Grant found.
His work is a great example of natural selection, a major part of evolution.
Now you are saying... 'that is only natural selection... we have no more species than before, no information gain.'
So now we get to the second half of evolution, change/mutation of genes.
Much of an organism is defined by its genes. There is little argument about this, even from creationists.
Forgetting natural selection, let's think about the reproduction of simple lifeforms. 'Either there is variation (mutation) or the cells copy themselves perfectly, every single generation, with absolutely no mistakes. Given entropy, that's just not possible! Mistakes are inevitable.' (Robert Moss).
Mutations do occur. But as you said, in the case of resistant bacteria, these are not information gaining mutations. Mutations never gain information. That isn't how it works. Mutations are about changing information.
So how does a genome gain information?
Let's imagine a hypothetical organism with one gene in a resource rich world. It reproduces constantly. Those organisms that have fatally deleterious mutations never breed. Those with other mutations breed at different rates, but since this is a resource rich world, all survive, and share their mutations with their neighbors. There is no speciation occurring, just one species with a single gene that constantly changing. They are a pretty homogeneous group.
Let's suppose this group got split in two. We have two separate colonies quickly becoming different species. But still we have single gene organisms. This goes on for a while, the two different species become adept at two different ways for getting energy out of the resources available.
Suddenly the colonies join again. The organisms are not so different that they can't still exchange genetic information, but are different enough that their genes cannot merge into a single hybrid gene. There is now some organisms with two genes. Both these genes have different methods of turning available resources into energy.
All these bacteria have been growing exponentially for sometime now. We have different species because this is a big world and the resources vary, and some of those species now have multiple genes. Suddenly we find that they have taken up all available area, and now must compete. Natural really kicks in, and many of the weaker variations of the major species disappear.
This world now has many distinctly different species, and some of these species have more genetic information than others. All the processes that I have described continue to occur. Sometimes there is a major event that knocks out most of the life, allowing new species to come to dominance. There is constant variation in the environment of this world, creating niches for organisms to specialize in. At some period a species develops the ability to join with others and becomes multi-cellular. This species finds it survives especially well in some niches. Et cetera, et cetera, until today, where all this evolution has resulted in todays world.
Sorry, I forgot to include individual genes growing in size/complexity. I am tired.
We have established that change and natural selection both happen. I have also demonstrated a method to gain new genes.
Evolution doesn't make any claims about the origin of life, just how life became to be a diverse as it is today.
We have reached the moon, but apathy overtook us when we realised that now Russia has been beaten there was no prestigious reason to return time and time again.
The best reason to go to the moon is redundancy. Some major catastrophe happens on earth, and we will still survive.
What do you mean 'whether or not evolution really happened'?
It is still happening. You can watch it happen in our hospitals right this very moment. Take a look at those people with drug resistant bacterial infections... some of these bacteria simply didn't exist 10 years ago. They are all descendants of older non resistant bacteria's.
Evolution never stopped, and cannot be stopped.
I place people who don't believe in evolution with people who think the world is flat in the the same group... stubbornly blind followers of dogma.
I can show you evidence of evolution... now can you show me evidence of creation, or a god?
Telstra made a AU$4Billion profit last year...
Optus is own by SingTel...
These are not poor companies.
If every Aussie is angry at the ISP, it's a wide open door for a new ISP with no capping to come in and make a lot of money
Do you have any idea how much it would cost to lay out a new network in Australia, then connect it to the world?
We are not talking a few billion here.
When anyone spends the money to lay this wire down, and then connections to the US, do you think they'll be charging a nice low price.
There are only a few companies in Australia that have physical infrastructure (mainly Telstra and Optus), and everyone else buys from them.
The parent post almost gives a good link, but there is a gap between the m and l in html. (I've seen this a lot on slashdot. Strange.)
Corrected link.
Oh come on... what percentage of the general public know the meaning of virus in Latin?
You started cheating after dying for the 6th time?
When I introduced nethack (in the falconseye variant) to my brother, he had dies over 40 times and gotten to level 16 before he went searching for cheats. Then he found out about debug mode and the wonders it allowed. He only stayed interested for another week.
He hasn't played it for about 2 months now, but with this new versions, I'm going to compile it myself, with every cheating method disabled.
Anyway, why didn't you just read the help files and use the 'explore' mode.
The real fun is in the challenges, like seeing how far in the game you can get without food. Or without ever fighting with a weapon.
The dependency and dependency resolution system- dpkg has the most advanced dependency system known to unix. No dobut to that... To solve these dependencies, dpkg goes to it's list of package locations (complete with http and ftp locations, cdroms, etc.. if necessary) and grabs the required packages from the net (the user is prompted on this, of course)
Umm, apt that does all that.
(note: debian isn't updated often, so this is generally unappreciated)
Debian is being constantly updated. If you are refering to the 'potato/stable' branch, then it in rarely updated. But 'woody' and 'sid' are being updated very often.
I'm not sure what else there is that makes it good. But RPM certainly doesn't have these features.
There is a version of apt-get for rpms that had recently been released. Not quite at the debian level, but still better than nothing.
It's buggy as hell - it's easier then signing up for aol to nuke your system this way (in other words, it happens quite often by accident)
I've never experienced any bug's in either apt or dpkg, though I've never used the sid/unstable branch. (And if I had used sid/unstable, I would have no right to complain about bugs, just to report them on bugs.debian.org).
No good front-ends - There is no good program to browse available packages, install them, enter configuration information (more on that in a sec) and remove them. You should enter the package you want to install. a wizard is displayed, it grabs the package from a mirror or local source, solves dependecies, installs it and any dependent packages, configures it, and exits.
Aptitude, Deity? What is wrong with them? (Make sure you get them from woody)
Configuration - dpkg has a system that allows the package to prompt for a few options before it is installed. this is a good thing, but the packages usually don't ask enough. users need full customization (nothing nitpicky. big stuff... so you dont have do manually edit configuration files by hand
If every package asked many questions then you would never finish an install. Anyway, debian lets you choose the amount and importance of the questions you are asked. Thats what debconf is all about. And compare it to redhat, where you aren't asked any package specific questions during install.
Available packages - this is where dpkg falls flat on it's face. 95% of unix packages are rpms. that never helps. a unified packaging system needs to be put into place.
Woody has 8602 packages atm. Debian does have a unified packaging system. All packages use the same package format, are found, retrieved, and installed using the same applications, and are kept together in a central location ( ftp.debian.org - and its mirrors). Nothing else compares.
i dunno what i forgot?
I dunno, what other debian fallacies can you think up.
Hrmm. That description sounds like usage behaviours of people from all countries.
An example; How many American's are interested in looking at Danish news sites, or Australian news sites, or Indian news sites? (and do so regularly). Few, most of them read local American news, usually owned and controlled by huge media corporations.
Of course the Chinese mostly read their local news, and other local sites.
The last Chinese exchange student I had board at our house used the Internet just to look at games.sina.com.cn
He rarely left the sina domains.
Why should we assume that the Chinese are interested in our news.
How many western people do you know of who are interested in China's stamp tax changes, or of the mass tree planting in Beijing?
3 billion? Half billion?
I must have fallen asleep, because I'm sure that last time I checked, China had approx 1.269 billion, and America had approx 277 million.
This is in a world with approx 6,273,000,000 people.
Here are a few other high population countries.
1001 million for India
216 million for Indonesia
172 million for Brazil
152 million for Pakistan
147 million for Russia
127 million for Bangladesh
127 million for Japan
114 million for Nigeria
100 million for Mexico
I think that is all the countries with over 100 million people
Easy to say.
Making ozone may be simple, but how do you recommend getting it to the correct altitude (it breaks down quickly at various altitudes below, and above, the actual ozone layer) and how do you disperse it thinly over 30 million sqaure killometers?