Not sure what information you have that leads to this conclusion. Improper landing configuration (flaps not set, gear not down) sounds a warning that cannot be silenced. The cause will be determined in due time. There may well have been pilot error, but there are parallels between this and BA38 in LHR that was attributed to fuel freezing in the fuel control.
Indeed, there's something even better than that for me: Known Crewmember checkpoints. However, not all airports have these. TSA PreCheck is for passengers/ticketholders. I'm speaking as a badged, background-checked, finger-printed pilot that is annoyed by the fact that I must pass through security screening to make sure my nail clippers are legal, and I'm not carrying pepper spray. Were I to wish ill to my passengers, I would not need a weapon. Some pilots enroll as an FFDO and carry weapons just to avoid this annoyance.
BTW, just saying "I don't need a weapon" to a TSA agent will require additional screening and perhaps result in arrest. It has happened.
They had attitude information, but no air data (altitude, airspeed, vertical speed). They were also, for a time, making dual and contrary inputs to the flight controls (sticks are independent and dual inputs are added together, one full up and one full down equals zero). Without air data, avoiding stall and recovering was made significantly more difficult.
However, they did recognize stall. They just failed to execute a proper recovery. They needed to hold the nose down for much longer to build airspeed before pulling up again. They ended up in stall after stall and ran out of time.
Great idea. Its called secondary barriers. And currently, ALPA is exerting great effort on the legislative front to mandate installation in commercial aircraft. IATA and Airlines for America (A4A) (is that not the stupidest name you ever heard?), are busy fighting this. Like most safety features, it costs money, which eats into profits. Gotta keep those ticket prices at historic lows...
Terrorists could be threatening to slaughter the passengers like sheep, but the pilots aren't informed.
Sorry to inform you, you are on your own back there. You will have to go postal on them yourselves. Nothing, absolutely nothing, will get that door open if there is any threat in the cabin. But just in case a bad guy (or any uninvited person for that matter) gets into the cockpit, he may well be looking down the barrel of an H&K as a hollow point exits at supersonic speed. Next time you get a chance, note the warning placards posted on the cockpit doors.
You must have very little faith in your fellow humans. I think it would be a rare person who wouldn't be motivated to save the lives of hundreds of people who were entrusted in his care.
This is an example of why having pilots pass through TSA security is unneeded- a constant irritation for me. A proper in-depth background check is all that is necessary, accompanied by ongoing review.
The autopilot was flying the plane. At least until it lost needed data to do so. Then as programed, it relinquished control to the only known entity that could cope- human pilots. The error was in flying into the storm in the first place. Thereafter, with conflicting data, the pilots made numerous further errors which aggravated their distress to the point of stall. In large swept wing aircraft, stall recovery is a long process and requires patience and often thousands of feet of altitude loss, while operating in alternate or direct flight control laws (not particularly easy). The rapid descent and threat of impact with the ground did not foster patience and the flight crew was inadequately trained in stall recovery, making the outcome more certain.
As a result, and to my dismay as an Airbus pilot, Airbus have modified their stall recovery procedure to retard thrust to idle- contrary to every thing pilots are taught from the very first stall.
With the current retirement age already at 65, and efforts to raise it again to 67, I think we are already where you suggest- old guys in ice cream suits. When I got hired at age 32, I was excited, but soon realized I would have to do this for a long time (age 60) before I retired. I wondered if my body or mind would give out before then- radiation exposure, embolisms, poor diet, working during WOCL, physical inactivity. As if it hasn't already...
Every pilot starts out with two buckets. One is filled with luck, the other empty of experience. Fill the experience bucket before the luck bucket runs out.
Your points mentioned above are valid except I'd argue this one is not fully considered:
AI can be integrated, or even replace the pilots without much of a change....
The abstraction of real time data given to a remote pilot is a real cost to be considered, given that many aspects of flight are dynamic and unpredictable. For example: routing through weather, mountain wave, multiple system failures, OCF (out of control flight), avoidance of traffic, sequence and separation, wake turbulence, are just a few issues that are diminished by remote piloting. And AI would need to come a long way to even approach the capacity humans possess to react to these types of variables.
While drones have been operating for quite some time, they have lost quite a few to exactly these issues.
Believe me when I say this is already happening. These constant competitive pressures to reduce costs resulted in Colgan 3407 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407, where inexperience and fatigue resulted in lost lives. And another example is Qantas' efforts to start an Asian subsidiary to subvert Australian pilot jobs as a cost saving measure.
I would hope the flying public considers safety rather than only seek the lowest price.
As an example, consider AF447 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447. While the outcome of this mishap was largely due to mistakes by the pilots prior to penetrating the weather and afterward by misapplication of controls during stall, it is highly doubtful that a remote pilot could ever have effected a recovery, even if he was not responsible for getting into this situation in the first place. The abstraction of kenesthetic data might someday be improved enough to make a recovery like this possible, but What's the point?
Going to all this trouble to remove, that is move, the pilot from the cockpit to a remote location gains what exactly while eliminating all that is made possible by manning the flight with trained and experienced flightcrew.
Re:I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied...
on
Was That A Tsunami?
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· Score: 1
I've now lived long enough to see Tool covered on/.
Not my experience at all. Had one since it came out in late 2010 and never had any problems with it- works great. Not so sure that the InfiniTV6 won't work in MythTV. Is this a Ceton driver limitation or MythTV limitation. Card differ only by number of tuners.
I've had the InfiniTV4 since it was introduced and can't say anything negative about it. Four to six tuners with an M-card and works under Media Center and has unsupported driver source for Linux. PCIe and USB flavors avaiable, networkable tuners. XBOX 360 functions as a Media Center Extender (no copy flagged media will only play on extenders). They also have the Echo but its pricy for an extender. No requirement for cable but it does support SDV if your cable company uses this. No subscription fees for database. Why TiVO when you can build your own?
Quickly, to add on to your discussion: I was stationed at NAS Moffett during the early '90's and recall a great deal of research at that time on the topic of augmented lift in STOL/VSTOL fixed wing aircraft. NASA had a number of unusual experimental planes that were able to fly at very slow relative wind speeds by bathing the wing in jet thrust or prop wash. It was very striking to watch these aircraft virtually float to a landing at about 40KTS.
Coupling this with the _1_ security measure that actually improved airline safety, putting locks on the cockpit doors (which does nothing if they don't actually lock them of course)
While I prefer hiding behind the locked Kevlar door (it's on the pushback checklist), don't forget some of us are armed with Heckler & Koch's and instructions to shoot to kill...
What is it about the airline industry that has made every decision maker involved utterly stupid?
I suppose, the desire to eke out a profit in what is now a highly competitive pricing environment. But I agree the nickle and dime-ing is annoying. They never ask me what I think of their ideas when they come up with stupid shit. They tell me to shut up and fly the plane.
The only aspect of air travel I can think of that doesn't operate in a wrong-headed way are the mechanics who keep the planes from falling out of the sky.
From my perspective (and the view is terrific), I always thought I did a pretty good job of keeping the plane from falling out of the sky, though I must admit I've had a few hard landings.
I'm a commercial pilot with an ATP rating (and 13000+ hours) and I have a few observations on your comments. Drones will continue to expand their roles in aviation, but will not likely replace pilots in people transport. It's less a matter of convincing the flying public than the insurance industry. We simply have not and likely will not achieve an artificial intelligence that can replace an experienced pilots judgement. Same could be said for miliary pilots but in the business of war, there are still "acceptable" levels of "collateral damage".
commercial pilots have a hand on the stick only during takeoffs and landings, but all modern heavies can land and take off under autopilot, and have been able to for about thirty years.
As for that, I've never heard of any transport category aircraft that can take off on its own but, yes, they are capable (not better at) landing on their own. And that requires a great deal of training, preparation, and qualififcation- typically employed when there is a near complete lack of visual reference (RVRs of less than 500 or 1/8th mile visibility). Some aircraft carrier catapult launches are hands off, but just to prevent PIOs until sufficiently airborne.
Again, replacing pilots (and their experience and judgement) in the cockpit is a long way off if ever. Issues like weather, mechanical abnormalities, interaction with other traffic, etc. necessitates human pilots (IMHO).
More on topic, all of my "training" is done in simulators. The initial operating experience is done with passengers on board.
While I can't vouch for the account given by the AC (my aircraft had a service ceiling of 29,000ft), I can attest to having flown an aircraft with a "P-chute". This is a lot like an airlock in that one can fill the chute and close the door, then eject the contents without having to depressurize. Mostly used for special buoys and excrement.
Odd, because my best friend from my college years and his wife seemed to have no problems. Sure, you may wait a couple hours for a flight, but they go everywhere. Free. It's pretty easy to find out which flights are booked solid and which aren't. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. They don't care, they had a list of places they wanted to go, and they'd fly to one of them (whichever) was the least solid booked flight. Of course, they were with United out of Chicago, perhaps that makes it a bit easier since they have a ton of flights going everywhere.
My guess is they're young and childless. With kids in school, working wife, etc., it's nearly impossible to hit those popular destinations when we are all available. OTOH, if I don't care where or when, sure I can find some place to go- maybe even a nice place if it's off season. Flexibility is the key and I don't have enough to make pass travel an attractive benefit. BTW, I'm Chicago based too. Is your college friend a crew member? No names necessary, just curious.
My sympathies to you.
You're kind to offer sympathies. I was bitter, but have come to accept it. However, due to how they went about terminating my pension, I will forever mistrust them, and my sense of loyalty and desire to "pull on the same end of the rope" are significantly diminished. I have learned it's just business to them and they do not value employee morale in any way- just cogs in the wheel.
Their captains max out at a minimum of more than $200,000 a year.
So are we talking typical or upper end? Your post was of a general nature and makes it sound like all or most flight attendants and pilots are all rolling cigars with $50 notes. Yeah, Southwest employees are doing well- particularly those at the top end. And so is Southwest for that matter. Perhaps because Southwest treats their employees well or their management is more talented. The typical airline crew employee is not so fortunate, particularly at the contract carriers (feeders). The relevant statistic is the average- just as all CEOs aren't paid like John H. Hammergren. BTW, take a look at how much their management compensation compares to the rest of this industry: Airline CEO Compensation Roundup (dated, I know but things haven't changed all that much). Odd how my company wants to use Southwest as a benchmark for PRASM, CASM and other operating costs- EXCEPT when the cost of compensation of the employees is at hand. Then it's apples and oranges...
I'm on a personal campaign to educate anyone and everyone about the myths of pilot pay. Pilots are perceived as on the same level as doctors and lawyers, but that's not the case anymore. Please pardon my passion, and thanks for being civil- hard to find on slashdot these days...
not if you want that $48K: More like 10 days off...
free travel for you and your family:
There's never any "space available" for those pesky employees. It's nothing but an enormous waste of time to even try.
big discounts on rental cars and hotels
You get the same thing we do...
per diem of $3k-$5k per year:
What? Do you think dining on the road is cheap- you must not travel much. That doesn't even cover it. Take a look next time, most of them carry a cooler full of food with them.
tuition reimbursement, matching 401k:
YGTBSM. Maybe at Southwest, but even with them 401K's are the only retirement.
pensions:
GONE, GONE, GONE. After telling us to take MASSIVE paycuts to save them- tremendous bait and switch. We were totally suckered. Live and learn...
Of course, airline pilots making up to $200k per year and all the above is a pretty good deal too.:
Not as bad as you think.:
"2012 - Special items
Labor Agreement Costs: On Aug. 3, 2012, the company announced it had reached an agreement in principle with respect to a new joint collective
bargaining agreement with the Air Line Pilots Association, representing pilots at United and Continental. The company recorded $454 million of
expense in the third quarter associated with lump sum cash payments that would be made in conjunction with the ratification of the contract and the
completion of the integrated pilot seniority list. This charge also includes costs associated with changes to existing pilot disability plans negotiated in
connection with the agreement in principle. The lump sum payments are not in lieu of future pay increases and were accrued in the third quarter as a
result of the payments becoming probable, primarily due to reaching the agreement in principle. The agreement in principle is subject to definitive
documentation, and any such definitive documentation is subject to approvals by each of the United and Continental ALPA master executive councils and
ratification by the company's pilots. The company currently expects to make cash payments of approximately $250 million in late 2012 or early 2013
relating to these charges and the balance in subsequent periods."
That turns out to be about what the profit was for the quarter. It appears that they have finally agreed to pay us, though not nearly enough after 10 years of bankruptcy wages and work rules...
It should likely be closer to $1B so as not to reward them for dragging out the negotiations past the amendable date. OTOH, from what I hear, it might not even pass the ratification vote.
I see his point, but he absolutely needs to refine it to complete the delivery. His "victims" need to see the other surveillance cameras that are viewing them at that moment. And he needs to reduce his focus on pissing off the victim and intensify the illustration of the point of his irritating actions.
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Not sure what information you have that leads to this conclusion. Improper landing configuration (flaps not set, gear not down) sounds a warning that cannot be silenced. The cause will be determined in due time. There may well have been pilot error, but there are parallels between this and BA38 in LHR that was attributed to fuel freezing in the fuel control.
BTW, just saying "I don't need a weapon" to a TSA agent will require additional screening and perhaps result in arrest. It has happened.
However, they did recognize stall. They just failed to execute a proper recovery. They needed to hold the nose down for much longer to build airspeed before pulling up again. They ended up in stall after stall and ran out of time.
Terrorists could be threatening to slaughter the passengers like sheep, but the pilots aren't informed.
Sorry to inform you, you are on your own back there. You will have to go postal on them yourselves. Nothing, absolutely nothing, will get that door open if there is any threat in the cabin. But just in case a bad guy (or any uninvited person for that matter) gets into the cockpit, he may well be looking down the barrel of an H&K as a hollow point exits at supersonic speed. Next time you get a chance, note the warning placards posted on the cockpit doors.
You must have very little faith in your fellow humans. I think it would be a rare person who wouldn't be motivated to save the lives of hundreds of people who were entrusted in his care.
OTOH, the unthinkable has happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990
This is an example of why having pilots pass through TSA security is unneeded- a constant irritation for me. A proper in-depth background check is all that is necessary, accompanied by ongoing review.
As a result, and to my dismay as an Airbus pilot, Airbus have modified their stall recovery procedure to retard thrust to idle- contrary to every thing pilots are taught from the very first stall.
The final mishap report makes very interesting reading (as do most reports): http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601.en/pdf/f-cp090601.en.pdf
Every pilot starts out with two buckets. One is filled with luck, the other empty of experience. Fill the experience bucket before the luck bucket runs out.
AI can be integrated, or even replace the pilots without much of a change. ...
The abstraction of real time data given to a remote pilot is a real cost to be considered, given that many aspects of flight are dynamic and unpredictable. For example: routing through weather, mountain wave, multiple system failures, OCF (out of control flight), avoidance of traffic, sequence and separation, wake turbulence, are just a few issues that are diminished by remote piloting. And AI would need to come a long way to even approach the capacity humans possess to react to these types of variables.
While drones have been operating for quite some time, they have lost quite a few to exactly these issues.
I would hope the flying public considers safety rather than only seek the lowest price.
Going to all this trouble to remove, that is move, the pilot from the cockpit to a remote location gains what exactly while eliminating all that is made possible by manning the flight with trained and experienced flightcrew.
I've now lived long enough to see Tool covered on /.
Not my experience at all. Had one since it came out in late 2010 and never had any problems with it- works great. Not so sure that the InfiniTV6 won't work in MythTV. Is this a Ceton driver limitation or MythTV limitation. Card differ only by number of tuners.
I've had the InfiniTV4 since it was introduced and can't say anything negative about it. Four to six tuners with an M-card and works under Media Center and has unsupported driver source for Linux. PCIe and USB flavors avaiable, networkable tuners. XBOX 360 functions as a Media Center Extender (no copy flagged media will only play on extenders). They also have the Echo but its pricy for an extender. No requirement for cable but it does support SDV if your cable company uses this. No subscription fees for database. Why TiVO when you can build your own?
Also the two of you are apparently dancing around the powerplant known as unducted fans
Quickly, to add on to your discussion: I was stationed at NAS Moffett during the early '90's and recall a great deal of research at that time on the topic of augmented lift in STOL/VSTOL fixed wing aircraft. NASA had a number of unusual experimental planes that were able to fly at very slow relative wind speeds by bathing the wing in jet thrust or prop wash. It was very striking to watch these aircraft virtually float to a landing at about 40KTS.
Coupling this with the _1_ security measure that actually improved airline safety, putting locks on the cockpit doors (which does nothing if they don't actually lock them of course)
While I prefer hiding behind the locked Kevlar door (it's on the pushback checklist), don't forget some of us are armed with Heckler & Koch's and instructions to shoot to kill...
People will be so relieved by the small concessions that they forget the larger liberties that they no longer enjoy.
Yeah! Like the liberty to be killed by well armed suicidal terrorists who've hijacked my airplane...
What is it about the airline industry that has made every decision maker involved utterly stupid?
I suppose, the desire to eke out a profit in what is now a highly competitive pricing environment. But I agree the nickle and dime-ing is annoying. They never ask me what I think of their ideas when they come up with stupid shit. They tell me to shut up and fly the plane.
The only aspect of air travel I can think of that doesn't operate in a wrong-headed way are the mechanics who keep the planes from falling out of the sky.
From my perspective (and the view is terrific), I always thought I did a pretty good job of keeping the plane from falling out of the sky, though I must admit I've had a few hard landings.
commercial pilots have a hand on the stick only during takeoffs and landings, but all modern heavies can land and take off under autopilot, and have been able to for about thirty years.
As for that, I've never heard of any transport category aircraft that can take off on its own but, yes, they are capable (not better at) landing on their own. And that requires a great deal of training, preparation, and qualififcation- typically employed when there is a near complete lack of visual reference (RVRs of less than 500 or 1/8th mile visibility). Some aircraft carrier catapult launches are hands off, but just to prevent PIOs until sufficiently airborne.
Again, replacing pilots (and their experience and judgement) in the cockpit is a long way off if ever. Issues like weather, mechanical abnormalities, interaction with other traffic, etc. necessitates human pilots (IMHO).
More on topic, all of my "training" is done in simulators. The initial operating experience is done with passengers on board.
While I can't vouch for the account given by the AC (my aircraft had a service ceiling of 29,000ft), I can attest to having flown an aircraft with a "P-chute". This is a lot like an airlock in that one can fill the chute and close the door, then eject the contents without having to depressurize. Mostly used for special buoys and excrement.
Odd, because my best friend from my college years and his wife seemed to have no problems. Sure, you may wait a couple hours for a flight, but they go everywhere. Free. It's pretty easy to find out which flights are booked solid and which aren't. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. They don't care, they had a list of places they wanted to go, and they'd fly to one of them (whichever) was the least solid booked flight. Of course, they were with United out of Chicago, perhaps that makes it a bit easier since they have a ton of flights going everywhere.
My guess is they're young and childless. With kids in school, working wife, etc., it's nearly impossible to hit those popular destinations when we are all available. OTOH, if I don't care where or when, sure I can find some place to go- maybe even a nice place if it's off season. Flexibility is the key and I don't have enough to make pass travel an attractive benefit. BTW, I'm Chicago based too. Is your college friend a crew member? No names necessary, just curious.
My sympathies to you.
You're kind to offer sympathies. I was bitter, but have come to accept it. However, due to how they went about terminating my pension, I will forever mistrust them, and my sense of loyalty and desire to "pull on the same end of the rope" are significantly diminished. I have learned it's just business to them and they do not value employee morale in any way- just cogs in the wheel.
Southwest Airline Attendant: Up to $103k.
Their captains max out at a minimum of more than $200,000 a year.
So are we talking typical or upper end? Your post was of a general nature and makes it sound like all or most flight attendants and pilots are all rolling cigars with $50 notes. Yeah, Southwest employees are doing well- particularly those at the top end. And so is Southwest for that matter. Perhaps because Southwest treats their employees well or their management is more talented. The typical airline crew employee is not so fortunate, particularly at the contract carriers (feeders). The relevant statistic is the average- just as all CEOs aren't paid like John H. Hammergren. BTW, take a look at how much their management compensation compares to the rest of this industry: Airline CEO Compensation Roundup (dated, I know but things haven't changed all that much). Odd how my company wants to use Southwest as a benchmark for PRASM, CASM and other operating costs- EXCEPT when the cost of compensation of the employees is at hand. Then it's apples and oranges...
I'm on a personal campaign to educate anyone and everyone about the myths of pilot pay. Pilots are perceived as on the same level as doctors and lawyers, but that's not the case anymore. Please pardon my passion, and thanks for being civil- hard to find on slashdot these days...
http://www.glassdoor.com/GD/Salary/United-Airlines-Flight-Attendant-Salaries-E683_D_KO16,32.htm?filter.experienceLevel=TEN_PLUS/
$84k:
try $48K at most.
12-15 days off per month (average):
not if you want that $48K: More like 10 days off...
free travel for you and your family:
There's never any "space available" for those pesky employees. It's nothing but an enormous waste of time to even try.
big discounts on rental cars and hotels
You get the same thing we do...
per diem of $3k-$5k per year:
What? Do you think dining on the road is cheap- you must not travel much. That doesn't even cover it. Take a look next time, most of them carry a cooler full of food with them.
tuition reimbursement, matching 401k:
YGTBSM. Maybe at Southwest, but even with them 401K's are the only retirement.
pensions:
GONE, GONE, GONE. After telling us to take MASSIVE paycuts to save them- tremendous bait and switch. We were totally suckered. Live and learn...
Of course, airline pilots making up to $200k per year and all the above is a pretty good deal too.:
IAAAP (I am an airline pilot) and I don't even make half that- after 17 years. From the devil itself:http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2009/06/16/pilot-pay-want-to-know-how-much-your-captain-earns/. Not everybody gets to be Captain, and it take years to make it. Oh yeah, they keep raising the retirement age: moving the line ever so further away...
Net profit margin 0.06%
Not as bad as you think.: "2012 - Special items Labor Agreement Costs: On Aug. 3, 2012, the company announced it had reached an agreement in principle with respect to a new joint collective bargaining agreement with the Air Line Pilots Association, representing pilots at United and Continental. The company recorded $454 million of expense in the third quarter associated with lump sum cash payments that would be made in conjunction with the ratification of the contract and the completion of the integrated pilot seniority list. This charge also includes costs associated with changes to existing pilot disability plans negotiated in connection with the agreement in principle. The lump sum payments are not in lieu of future pay increases and were accrued in the third quarter as a result of the payments becoming probable, primarily due to reaching the agreement in principle. The agreement in principle is subject to definitive documentation, and any such definitive documentation is subject to approvals by each of the United and Continental ALPA master executive councils and ratification by the company's pilots. The company currently expects to make cash payments of approximately $250 million in late 2012 or early 2013 relating to these charges and the balance in subsequent periods."
That turns out to be about what the profit was for the quarter. It appears that they have finally agreed to pay us, though not nearly enough after 10 years of bankruptcy wages and work rules...
It should likely be closer to $1B so as not to reward them for dragging out the negotiations past the amendable date. OTOH, from what I hear, it might not even pass the ratification vote.
I see his point, but he absolutely needs to refine it to complete the delivery. His "victims" need to see the other surveillance cameras that are viewing them at that moment. And he needs to reduce his focus on pissing off the victim and intensify the illustration of the point of his irritating actions.