I want to play along with your hypothetical scenario and tried to make assumptions to make the two situations more similar, but it's pointless, they're just too different.
They're really not. The formula is the same Country A has law. Country B doesn't recognize that law. Someone from Country B breaks a Country A law while in Country B. What makes it a law according to your argument above is that they used Service C and Service C is from Country A.
That's the formula. Service C can be a bank or an ISP. You wouldn't approve if the tables are turned and simply using a Chinese "Service C" such as an ISP threw you in the slammer.
So let's do something more like a direct script-flipping: Suppose China has sanctions against, say, Iceland, and I,
It doesn't matter the country. If you are in country B and you are working for a company in country B you're not beholden to country A rules. Laws in one country have no jurisdiction over rules in another country. They can only police what happens on their own soil.
You might've read that Huawei's CFO radically changed her travel patterns to avoid the US leading up to the arrest so she must've had some suspicion that there could be a warrant for her arrest. Odd thing to do if you're legally in the clear.
Of course she did, she's not stupid. I wouldn't go a country that has a politically fueled warrant for my arrest either. There are Turkish protesters in the US that are avoiding Turkey because of the trumped up charges against them in Turkey- they're not being treated as guilty because we recognize Erdogan as (potentially) having made the whole thing up for political reasons. It's not automatic admission of guilt for them to be avoiding Turkey.
Let's use another example: If I was a Romanian, and from Romania, I hacked some American's computer, stole his credit card number, and bought stuff with it, if I were identified would I not risk arrest if I traveled to the US? It's another financial crime performed at a distance, just a simpler one.
If a Romanian stole a credit card from an American in Hungary that would be up to Hungarian police to tackle the issue, not American, and America would have no right to extradite.
Europe isn't a country, it is a region. When they decide to become a single country, then they'll be one.
When you look at the populations involved (about 500 mill for EU vs US 325 mill) it makes a lot more useful comparison rather than say the average European country (under 20 mill) since the US is over 16 times more populous than the average European country and landmass US is similar size to Europe. The UK (itself primarily made of four countries) for comparison is the size of the Carolinas.
I think that you can rest assured that the United States is still the dominant power in world affairs, both now and for the foreseeable future.
It's not as clear cut as it was 4 years ago though. When people outside the US refer to the leader of the free world now they're talking about Merkel, not the President of the US. US has lost it's leadership role in the US, it has pushed it's allies aside and now many of America's former allies view the US with distrust and even as a rival rather than a reliable friend.
The world has changed very much from how it was 1945 up until a few years ago. The US stands more alone than before and although the single biggest player for world-affairs, by itself, it can't dominate the world without support from other countries like it used to.
I just hope that it's not China taking over. Because if you thought US capitalism was evil and crazy, you haven't seen Chinese capitalism. They out-capitalist the US in the worst way. And are also a regime,
If we continue on the same trajectory for long, it is inevitable China will take over as the world's most powerful country, and get to bully the world as the US has in recent generations. And you're right- unless they change, it will be far worse. China won't have to make up excuses like "WMD" or "extraditing people for pretend-breaking US sanctions", they will just do whatever the hell they want to do because they're not a democracy. They don't have to try to look good for their population- what the government says is automatically right and correct thing to do.
America has been held back from some of the worst atrocities because they've had to try and make it look like they were doing things legally.
When you cross the border into the US there is a sign that says "Welcome to The United States of America", the small print underneath says "Made in China".
Yes, Canada does have a difficult decision as to whether to kowtow to a foreign government that runs ethnic re-education camps and rolled tanks over its own protesting citizens.
China has done many terrible things and is wrong on so many issues; but that's kind of irrelevant, you can't just make examples of Chinese citizens and illegally try to have them extradited just because the Chinese government has done some terrible things.
Would it be illegal for a Chinese citizen working for a Chinese company within China to fool a US bank into working with Iran?
OK, so let's reverse the scenario. Your ISP is purchased by a Chinese company and you make a post saying "Xi Jinping looks like Winnie The Pooh". Does China now have the right to extradite you to China and send you to a re-education camp. What if you used a TOR browser and a VPN to post it (and fool them/hide your identity) By what you're saying above (that she used an American bank she is subject to American rules) one would have to assume that you using a Chinese owned ISP would make you have to abide by Chinese rules- even if you're not in China.
Now try not to think of all the millions of people in the world using Chinese made phones and thus subject to Chinese laws and all the hundreds of thousands of people we need to send to Chinese labour camps by your interpretation of the laws.
The bank used to facilitate the deal was a company operating and registered in the US that she directly acted to defraud (possibly while physically in the US). This link may help explain it:
Also at some point SkyCom sold US-made equipment to Iran.
She doesn't work for the US bank though, she works for a Chinese company. What SkyCom did in the past is irrelevant. It may be illegal for the US bank to operate with Iran- but it is not illegal for a Chinese citizen working for a Chinese company within China to work with Iran.
I'd bet Canada finds a reason not to extradite her to the US to get the Canadian back from China.
Canada has a difficult decision here. Either extradite her to the US and be seen as an untrustable state that will pander to the US politically rather than follow international law OR anger their biggest trading partner, close ally and defensive partner. Upsetting the US with Trump in charge is probably going to lead to some silly tariff or trick to try and harm the Canadian economy; however complying means Canada will lose the respect of the rest of the world and will no longer be able to claim a moral high-route. Canada is seen as "clean" and trustworthy by most foreign nations, do they lose that image, or upset their underpants?
So you think that foreigners should be free to perpetrate fraud against American companies without facing any potential consequences from American law enforcement, interesting. Does it matter if she was physically in the US when she perpetrated the frauds? She may have been, it isn't clear, just wondering.
I think foreigners working for foreign companies whilst in foreign companies and dealing with other foreign companies should not face any potential consequences from American law enforcements, yes. In fact, that seems a pretty logical conclusion that almost anyone would make. America has no jurisdiction over China, or Hong Kong, or even Iran, the three countries involved with this dealing.
If she were American, or in America, or working for an American company, or if this had ANYTHING to do with America besides the banks used to facilitate a deal, I could see a case; but this is just about scoring one over the Chinese and is 100% about politics- this isn't a law enforcement issue; this is about trying to bully foreign countries to back America's treaty-breaking sanctions: it's laughable to even pretend it is otherwise.
The US is the pariah state this time and the ones breaking the rules.
Skycom = Hong Kong company. Hong Kong ruled by China. China has no sanctions against Iran. If American banks were involved and didn't do due process to realize funds were coming or going from Iran then the banks are at fault.
This is 100% about politics and 0% to do with her breaking any laws.
That's a suckers' bet. Almost guaranteed she buggers off back to China immediately. If not then the Chinese government will be hanging her out to dry. Even if she does jump bail and go back to China, even odds she's never heard from again, dropped in a deep hole somewhere, for embarassing the communist Chinese government by fucking up and getting caught.
She's much more likely to be treated as a hero or a martyr in China- an example of Western aggression. Someone who suffered for Mother China.
it didn't happen just because she was a Chinese national, even a prominent one, but because she evaded sanctions on Iran, which is a pretty serious crime.
The clue to the flaw in your argument is in plain sight. She is a Chinese national working for a Chinese company. China does not have sanctions against Iran in place. She has not broken the law.
And is it a serious crime? The sanctions themselves are breaking a signed treaty by this country. I don't normally defend China- but in this case the US is clearly the bad guy and Canada, who I normally respect, are abetting.
China minds their own business for the most part. They don't go around starting wars like the US does.
I can't remember the exact quote but Sun Tzu says something like "don't fight a war you can't win." China are biding their time and strengthening themselves before they flex their military might. They know they're not yet competition for the US and the US is going to get involved if they do anything too brazen.
Already China is taking land from neighbours in the South China sea and strengthening their borders. Once they're stronger- then the threat of military intervention elsewhere is real.
Getting away from Republicans... oh wait, I see your point about cockroaches. nvm.
Obviously you're joking... but... you can't get away from them that easily. Studies have shown that lottery winners usually go on to become right wing politically after winning money regardless of their political affiliation before winning the lottery. The reason is probably obvious, if you have a lot of money you're more likely to want to protect it, rather than live in an egalitarian society.
The study only showed lottery winners, (it's easier to track them than the population at large), but it would suggest that having money can change your political stance and make you want to protect it. Any trip to another planet even if you sent all Republicans or all Democrats would eventually end up with a mix of political beliefs as long as there was a way for some people to have more wealth than another.
As long as you have some people with more wealth than others- you're always going to have conservatives wanting to protect that wealth. As long as you have some people with less wealth than others you're always going to have liberals wanting an equal share of the pie. It's human nature. Obviously not all rich people are conservative or poor people liberal; I'm not making that claim. A large portion of conservatives are poor but dream of being rich.
Man, authoritarians on all sides. Sucks to be a normal person who just wants to be free.
Freedom has been taken for granted many places in the world for a few generations. We're probably overdue our cheque. The bill will probably be another generation of young people losing their lives.
Or they can simply modify the edition the Chinese get. IIRC, Bungie had to make modifications to Myth for the European market, because some countries had a thing against blood in games, so they made the blood green
They, can, and short term they will... but really the battle from the Chinese government is not just against specific video games, the current government is against video games in general.
That social worth score that they have where you're give a score by the government to say how good a citizen you are, it is impacted by video games. The more hours of video games you play, the more points you lose. Playing a lot of video games can mean you're banned from staying at certain hotels, getting some jobs, and visiting some shops. Granted, you probably have to waste your life away playing games for it to be significant, but they've already got a bias against video games built in.
Slashdot Mirror
I want to play along with your hypothetical scenario and tried to make assumptions to make the two situations more similar, but it's pointless, they're just too different.
They're really not. The formula is the same Country A has law. Country B doesn't recognize that law. Someone from Country B breaks a Country A law while in Country B. What makes it a law according to your argument above is that they used Service C and Service C is from Country A.
That's the formula. Service C can be a bank or an ISP. You wouldn't approve if the tables are turned and simply using a Chinese "Service C" such as an ISP threw you in the slammer.
So let's do something more like a direct script-flipping: Suppose China has sanctions against, say, Iceland, and I,
It doesn't matter the country. If you are in country B and you are working for a company in country B you're not beholden to country A rules. Laws in one country have no jurisdiction over rules in another country. They can only police what happens on their own soil.
You might've read that Huawei's CFO radically changed her travel patterns to avoid the US leading up to the arrest so she must've had some suspicion that there could be a warrant for her arrest. Odd thing to do if you're legally in the clear.
Of course she did, she's not stupid. I wouldn't go a country that has a politically fueled warrant for my arrest either. There are Turkish protesters in the US that are avoiding Turkey because of the trumped up charges against them in Turkey- they're not being treated as guilty because we recognize Erdogan as (potentially) having made the whole thing up for political reasons. It's not automatic admission of guilt for them to be avoiding Turkey.
Let's use another example: If I was a Romanian, and from Romania, I hacked some American's computer, stole his credit card number, and bought stuff with it, if I were identified would I not risk arrest if I traveled to the US? It's another financial crime performed at a distance, just a simpler one.
If a Romanian stole a credit card from an American in Hungary that would be up to Hungarian police to tackle the issue, not American, and America would have no right to extradite.
Europe isn't a country, it is a region. When they decide to become a single country, then they'll be one.
When you look at the populations involved (about 500 mill for EU vs US 325 mill) it makes a lot more useful comparison rather than say the average European country (under 20 mill) since the US is over 16 times more populous than the average European country and landmass US is similar size to Europe. The UK (itself primarily made of four countries) for comparison is the size of the Carolinas.
I think that you can rest assured that the United States is still the dominant power in world affairs, both now and for the foreseeable future.
It's not as clear cut as it was 4 years ago though. When people outside the US refer to the leader of the free world now they're talking about Merkel, not the President of the US. US has lost it's leadership role in the US, it has pushed it's allies aside and now many of America's former allies view the US with distrust and even as a rival rather than a reliable friend.
The world has changed very much from how it was 1945 up until a few years ago. The US stands more alone than before and although the single biggest player for world-affairs, by itself, it can't dominate the world without support from other countries like it used to.
I just hope that it's not China taking over. Because if you thought US capitalism was evil and crazy, you haven't seen Chinese capitalism. They out-capitalist the US in the worst way. And are also a regime,
If we continue on the same trajectory for long, it is inevitable China will take over as the world's most powerful country, and get to bully the world as the US has in recent generations. And you're right- unless they change, it will be far worse. China won't have to make up excuses like "WMD" or "extraditing people for pretend-breaking US sanctions", they will just do whatever the hell they want to do because they're not a democracy. They don't have to try to look good for their population- what the government says is automatically right and correct thing to do.
America has been held back from some of the worst atrocities because they've had to try and make it look like they were doing things legally.
Is the GPS tracker made by Huawei?
When you cross the border into the US there is a sign that says "Welcome to The United States of America", the small print underneath says "Made in China".
Yes, Canada does have a difficult decision as to whether to kowtow to a foreign government that runs ethnic re-education camps and rolled tanks over its own protesting citizens.
China has done many terrible things and is wrong on so many issues; but that's kind of irrelevant, you can't just make examples of Chinese citizens and illegally try to have them extradited just because the Chinese government has done some terrible things.
Would it be illegal for a Chinese citizen working for a Chinese company within China to fool a US bank into working with Iran?
OK, so let's reverse the scenario. Your ISP is purchased by a Chinese company and you make a post saying "Xi Jinping looks like Winnie The Pooh". Does China now have the right to extradite you to China and send you to a re-education camp. What if you used a TOR browser and a VPN to post it (and fool them/hide your identity) By what you're saying above (that she used an American bank she is subject to American rules) one would have to assume that you using a Chinese owned ISP would make you have to abide by Chinese rules- even if you're not in China.
Now try not to think of all the millions of people in the world using Chinese made phones and thus subject to Chinese laws and all the hundreds of thousands of people we need to send to Chinese labour camps by your interpretation of the laws.
The bank used to facilitate the deal was a company operating and registered in the US that she directly acted to defraud (possibly while physically in the US). This link may help explain it:
https://law.stackexchange.com/...
Also at some point SkyCom sold US-made equipment to Iran.
She doesn't work for the US bank though, she works for a Chinese company. What SkyCom did in the past is irrelevant. It may be illegal for the US bank to operate with Iran- but it is not illegal for a Chinese citizen working for a Chinese company within China to work with Iran.
I'd bet Canada finds a reason not to extradite her to the US to get the Canadian back from China.
Canada has a difficult decision here. Either extradite her to the US and be seen as an untrustable state that will pander to the US politically rather than follow international law OR anger their biggest trading partner, close ally and defensive partner. Upsetting the US with Trump in charge is probably going to lead to some silly tariff or trick to try and harm the Canadian economy; however complying means Canada will lose the respect of the rest of the world and will no longer be able to claim a moral high-route. Canada is seen as "clean" and trustworthy by most foreign nations, do they lose that image, or upset their underpants?
Assange needs a massage.
Sadly I hope these events don't end in worsening tensions. What we need is a happy ending.
So you think that foreigners should be free to perpetrate fraud against American companies without facing any potential consequences from American law enforcement, interesting. Does it matter if she was physically in the US when she perpetrated the frauds? She may have been, it isn't clear, just wondering.
I think foreigners working for foreign companies whilst in foreign companies and dealing with other foreign companies should not face any potential consequences from American law enforcements, yes. In fact, that seems a pretty logical conclusion that almost anyone would make. America has no jurisdiction over China, or Hong Kong, or even Iran, the three countries involved with this dealing.
If she were American, or in America, or working for an American company, or if this had ANYTHING to do with America besides the banks used to facilitate a deal, I could see a case; but this is just about scoring one over the Chinese and is 100% about politics- this isn't a law enforcement issue; this is about trying to bully foreign countries to back America's treaty-breaking sanctions: it's laughable to even pretend it is otherwise.
The US is the pariah state this time and the ones breaking the rules.
It's free. If it was paid it would likely be called PaidBSD.
Yes, that's the point of my bad joke!
Your dignity
I have no dignity, it must be free!
She committed crimes in the US involving a US company:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/1...
How has she not broken the law?
Skycom = Hong Kong company. Hong Kong ruled by China. China has no sanctions against Iran. If American banks were involved and didn't do due process to realize funds were coming or going from Iran then the banks are at fault.
This is 100% about politics and 0% to do with her breaking any laws.
FreeBSD sounds great! How much does it cost?
According to your classification, France is a fascist/nazi country.
France is world famous for having a terrible legal system.
Canadian expat here.
Dear Americans, we love you. But
Stop right there! America still hasn't forgiven Canada for Justin Bieber... get back in the dog house.
That's a suckers' bet. Almost guaranteed she buggers off back to China immediately. If not then the Chinese government will be hanging her out to dry. Even if she does jump bail and go back to China, even odds she's never heard from again, dropped in a deep hole somewhere, for embarassing the communist Chinese government by fucking up and getting caught.
She's much more likely to be treated as a hero or a martyr in China- an example of Western aggression. Someone who suffered for Mother China.
it didn't happen just because she was a Chinese national, even a prominent one, but because she evaded sanctions on Iran, which is a pretty serious crime.
The clue to the flaw in your argument is in plain sight. She is a Chinese national working for a Chinese company. China does not have sanctions against Iran in place. She has not broken the law.
And is it a serious crime? The sanctions themselves are breaking a signed treaty by this country. I don't normally defend China- but in this case the US is clearly the bad guy and Canada, who I normally respect, are abetting.
China minds their own business for the most part. They don't go around starting wars like the US does.
I can't remember the exact quote but Sun Tzu says something like "don't fight a war you can't win." China are biding their time and strengthening themselves before they flex their military might. They know they're not yet competition for the US and the US is going to get involved if they do anything too brazen.
Already China is taking land from neighbours in the South China sea and strengthening their borders. Once they're stronger- then the threat of military intervention elsewhere is real.
China has already retaliated:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politi...
Of course they have. You poke the beast by arresting one of their executives on Trump-ed up charges, of course they will do the same.
When Musk makes his colony on Mars you will have to use Paypal to pay for your Mars Tesla and to use the Hyperloop.
Is he still involved in Paypal? I thought he was no longer involved in that business.
> otherwise what's the point of leaving earth
Getting away from Republicans... oh wait, I see your point about cockroaches. nvm.
Obviously you're joking... but... you can't get away from them that easily. Studies have shown that lottery winners usually go on to become right wing politically after winning money regardless of their political affiliation before winning the lottery. The reason is probably obvious, if you have a lot of money you're more likely to want to protect it, rather than live in an egalitarian society.
The study only showed lottery winners, (it's easier to track them than the population at large), but it would suggest that having money can change your political stance and make you want to protect it. Any trip to another planet even if you sent all Republicans or all Democrats would eventually end up with a mix of political beliefs as long as there was a way for some people to have more wealth than another.
As long as you have some people with more wealth than others- you're always going to have conservatives wanting to protect that wealth. As long as you have some people with less wealth than others you're always going to have liberals wanting an equal share of the pie. It's human nature. Obviously not all rich people are conservative or poor people liberal; I'm not making that claim. A large portion of conservatives are poor but dream of being rich.
Man, authoritarians on all sides. Sucks to be a normal person who just wants to be free.
Freedom has been taken for granted many places in the world for a few generations. We're probably overdue our cheque. The bill will probably be another generation of young people losing their lives.
Or they can simply modify the edition the Chinese get. IIRC, Bungie had to make modifications to Myth for the European market, because some countries had a thing against blood in games, so they made the blood green
They, can, and short term they will... but really the battle from the Chinese government is not just against specific video games, the current government is against video games in general.
That social worth score that they have where you're give a score by the government to say how good a citizen you are, it is impacted by video games. The more hours of video games you play, the more points you lose. Playing a lot of video games can mean you're banned from staying at certain hotels, getting some jobs, and visiting some shops. Granted, you probably have to waste your life away playing games for it to be significant, but they've already got a bias against video games built in.