If the reason is cultural, how come before 1800s, i.e. before British took over India, India had been either the richest country in the world, or the second richest from 1CE to 1800s? Here are the numbers in various centuries from The World Economy: A Millennial Perspective by economic historian Angus Maddison Country GDP($millions)1CE 1000 1600 1700 World 102536 116790 329417 371369 India 33750 33750 74250 90750 China 26820 26550 96000 82800 M. East 16470 16470 36725 40567 W. Europe 11115 13723 43000 45000
Don't blame ills of a socialist economy on cluture
Puting myself in shoes of an company in India, here is what I would be thinking right now -- Please, Oh! please unionize. Increase your costs further so that the software we make gets comparably even cheaper India and and we can take over the world....
For the blind, you simply allow them to post/edit after a one time signup and verification of email id. Once they log in they don't hav eto go through image verification system
What about using random image based spam control lik the one yahoo uses on its new mail signup? So, every time you edit/post comment, you would be presented with an image with a random distorted text, which you will have to type in to be able to edit/post. That should take care of automated systems.
For those who can't access the site because it is/.ed or do not want to read the site in the ususal/. tradition, here is a summary of major features 1. Runs Linux 2. Can connect to Internet though a regular phone line or CDMA cellphone 3. Has 2 USB ports built in 4. Has a inbuilt voice recorder 5. Aslo works as a MP3 and movie player(combine with the USB storage and...you get the idea) 6. Has lots of inbuilt apps including internet browser, email, accounting and a panchanga ( Indian calender system used to figure out auspicious inauspicious days) etc. 7. Can wrie in multiple languages using a "bhasha" notebook software inbuilt and a special keyboard. 8. Gesture input using a inbuilt accelerometer
Other benefits http://amidasimputer.com/benefits/ And you can buy it from here: http://www.amidasimputer.com/buy
I guess you need to check this Indian embassy web site
http://www.indianembassy.org/consular/visa_guide .h tm EMPLOYMENT VISA: An appointment letter, contract letter, applicant's resume and proof that the organization is registered in India are required. Duration of visa would depend on the period of the contract.
You seem to be a chinese origin person, so whatever you say about china may be right, and I will not argue.
But, puhleese, don't spout ignorant statements about India like roaming tigers on streets in cities.
Another thing to remember is that India already is a mixed race society, with all shades of the color variations and features from north to south. So, being a puralistic democracy who does not suppress its citizens, are used to living with "different" looking people, free press etc. westereners will have a easier time adjusting.
Indian Culture is much different from the American one. Such migration might not help at all.. considering that the Americans will have tough time adjusting to the culture in the first place
Remember Indian's face the exactly same cultural problems when moving to US, only in reverse.
who says they don't? when was the last time you went to bangalore? You will be surprised to see the number of non-Indians working there. The only thing is that they don't work at entery level, because the salary at entery level at about $300/month is too low.
Reminds me of what Mahatma Gandhi said "First they laugh at you, then ten they ignore you, then they fight you and then you win" First they laugh at you --- Linux 0.** huh? that's funny. then they ignore you -- Linux 1.** Who cares it is only for geeks, and it is only replacing othe unix then they fight you -- Linux 2.** We can prove that windoze is better they you win -- Linux 3.**???
For a) The reason for unemployment is mainly the bust and not outsourcing. Outsourcing is allowing some of the American companies to survive where they would not have because of the bust.
For b) I guess you did not understand me. US companies pay the offshored programmers in dollars. The dollars go into the foreign govt. reserves, but finally they have to be spent someday, and then the dollars have to come back as they have to be spent/invested in the US finally. For example of the $100 billion that Indian govt. holds, $57billion has been invested back in US treasury bills.
c) is relevant, because this implies that if US companies do not use offshore model, the products that are made here won't be able to sompete with the cheaper ones in India, resulting in even lesser jobs.
Whenever this issue comes up I always see somebody or the other clamoring for legislation or other forms of protectionism. But in doing this they make some serious assumptions, that are wrong -- a)American companies can be better off without any offshore development...
No. Reason 1... Not enough americans are getting into the engineering disciplines, and those that are do not get the grad degrees etc. Have you seen the university graduate school departments for Masters/Phd. lately? How many americans do you see? India already produces vastly larger number of Engineers/computer science degrees then USA. It had at the last count about 1200-1500 engineering schools. Reason 2: Offshore/onshore combination development is a model that Indian companies have perfected as an art form, with the result that companies like Wipro, Infosys etc. are directly bidding for the contracts that US companies were outsourcing to them, because of lower costs. In fact IBM lists the Indian company Wipro as one of its most formidable competiters in future for its core services business. So, either US companies need to perfect the model, or start loosing contracts especially internationally b) Stoping outsourcing for govt. contracts using legislation will help. False
It would probably slow things down, but it would only mean taxing the common citizen more to pay another US citizen, i.e. redistribution of wealth, and not any creation of wealth. On the other hand outsourcing means more dollars in the hands of Indians, and what do they do with those dollars? they can do only one of the 2 things, i.e. either buy US products or invest back in US, and they do both. At the same time more wealth is created in US, because some customers save money,and the money that went out, came back again and bought more products creating even more jobs.
c) Indian companies are not creating any products.
False. Subsidiaries of US companies in India are creating complete products. See previous stories in slashdot. But even besides that India has been getting the largest amount of VC capital in Asia for last couple of years, and you will se products out soon. Some products are already there. For e.g.
iflexIn FY03, International Banking Systems (IBS) has ranked Flexcube as the number one selling universal banking solution in the world. Represented in over 50 countries through more than 30 corporate business partners, i-flex has gained the recognition of the first company in the world to cross the 100-installations mark for its product in less than 5 years. And there are other success stories.
And, by the way I don't know here you had the Rs 450 mocha, because the Starbucks equivalent in India, i.e. Caffe Coffee day the biggest caffee chain in India, sells mocha for only Rs 15, i.e. about 30 cents.
That is as I said for the experienced programmers only, because they are in short supply in India, and hence can demand a very high premium above the per capita today. But, guess what the fresh out of college programmers still get about 10,000-15,000 Rs which is about $300 at Rs45/$ while about 7 years ago, they used to get about Rs.8000 at Rs 36/$ which would again be about $300.
As the supply of experience programmers is increasing so is the pay increase is coming down. It has already happened wit anybody with less then 3 years of ecxperience, it will happen soon with others higher up the chain.
You are right to some extent about the experience programmer. But, with per capita income in India a fraction of US, and the purchasing power parity factor of 10, even if you want to maintain the exact same lifestyle as here, it will cost 1/10th. Though India is right now the 4th largest economy after US,china and Japan, in Per capita income terms, it will be a very very long time(>50 years) until either China or India catch up with US in per capita income.
P.S. for those who are confused about purchasing power parity, it roughly implies how much further would a dollar go in India. so, a factor of 10 implies that a dollar would be worth $10 out there.
If done right, it can be worth it, but as we've seen, many firms haven't been up to that challenge.
That is exactly right. Indian companies themselves have this figured out pat down with their experience in the ofshore-model as they call it. For this very reason they are now directly bidding for US contract, competing and winnig against companies like IBM, who are still trying to really figure out the model, and so have higher costs. In fact IBM lists Indian company Wipro as one of its most formidable compititer in its core service business in future. So, either US companies need to figure out the ousource/offshore model in a hurry, or they will start loosing the IT contracts in US and especially internationally to Indian companies.
... in the normal sense of the term. Outsourcing implies farming out the job to some other company. On the other hand the examples that the article gives about Hewlett-Packard and Oracle employing the programmers in India as in-house employees. So, the capacity to innovate still remains within the company, though it moves outside the US. So, I don't see how the argument works for most of the bigger companies like HP, Oracle, IBM, GE, TI etc. etc. who run their own operations in India, and do not outsource to other companies as much.
For example of innovations in subsidarys outside US see http://www.iht.com/articles/121488.htm and the slashdot story http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/12/21 /043220 0&mode=thread&tid=187&tid=98&tid=9 9
you are right. But, at the same time you must remember, that if the private company does not provide value, they will not make money. There is no govt. subsidy here.
And, believe me Indian farmer(for that matter small farmers everywhere even in USA) knows the value of money.
Re:what's the use of internet with an empty belly?
on
Joining the Global Village
·
· Score: 1, Insightful
Ah another post modded insightful, when it is obvious that the poster did not read the article.
This is an initiative by a private company, with the aim of making money, and they are making it. If it was a waste of money, they would not do it. They are using this e-choupal as a place to allow people to get information, and increase customer(read farmer) footfall, so they can sell them seeds, tractors etc.Even the providing of information part is run as a business in the franchise model.
As, for the benefits(if you would have read the article you would not need to ask this) -- a couple of actual examples should suffice. A farmer find from the Internet that the market about 200 miles away is paing Rs 5/kg higher price then his local market, rents a truck, sells his stuff at a higher price, and makes extra money. A soyabean farmer looks at the futures market in chicago to decide how much soyabean to sow, and how much of the land to use for patatoes.
Please did you read the article? It is being run by a private sector company with the aim of making money. Do you think that they would do it if it was a waste of money? I know it is in/. tradition to comment without reading the article, but at least the moderators should read it before modding a post insightful. But I guess that is too much to ask for.
This a great idea in principle but who's paying for it? In the great/. tradition, neither you nor the moderator who modded you insightful read the article.
This is not a govt. initiative. This is an initiative by a private company who wants to become the wall-mart of India for the rural areas. So, they figure they will open something call "e-choupal", which will serve as an information center and get the "customers" to visit. Of course they run it like a franchise model, they provide the equipment, train a local person to operate the computer, and then that trained person now can charge money for the services. So, this becomes a money making enterprise.
Of course after this they start getting customer ( read farmer) footfalls in the e-choupals and now they can sell stuff like seeds, tractors etc.
P.S. Just wanted to add this because some people have been claiming lack of tractors in India, which is totally false. India is the world's largest tractor market, with the largest tractor company in India, and 4th largest in the world Mahindra holding a significant share of USA tractor market
See here, where I have quoted from--
link
Please, don't perpetuate ignorant data. Tractors are very much in use in India and in very large numbers --
Infact India is the world's largest tractor market, with the largest tractor company in India, and 4th largest in the world Mahindra holding a significant share of USA tractor market
See here, where I have quoted from-- http://www.mahindraworld.com/mahindras/far m_equipm ent/farm_profile.htm
Slashdot Mirror
If the reason is cultural, how come before 1800s, i.e. before British took over India, India had been either the richest country in the world, or the second richest from 1CE to 1800s?
Here are the numbers in various centuries from The World Economy: A Millennial Perspective by economic historian Angus Maddison
Country GDP($millions)1CE 1000 1600 1700
World 102536 116790 329417 371369
India 33750 33750 74250 90750
China 26820 26550 96000 82800
M. East 16470 16470 36725 40567
W. Europe 11115 13723 43000 45000
Don't blame ills of a socialist economy on cluture
Puting myself in shoes of an company in India, here is what I would be thinking right now --
Please, Oh! please unionize. Increase your costs further so that the software we make gets comparably even cheaper India and and we can take over the world....
For the blind, you simply allow them to post/edit after a one time signup and verification of email id. Once they log in they don't hav eto go through image verification system
What about using random image based spam control lik the one yahoo uses on its new mail signup?
So, every time you edit/post comment, you would be presented with an image with a random distorted text, which you will have to type in to be able to edit/post. That should take care of automated systems.
For those who can't access the site because it is /.ed or do not want to read the site in the ususal /. tradition, here is a summary of major features ...you get the idea)
1. Runs Linux
2. Can connect to Internet though a regular phone line or CDMA cellphone
3. Has 2 USB ports built in
4. Has a inbuilt voice recorder
5. Aslo works as a MP3 and movie player(combine with the USB storage and
6. Has lots of inbuilt apps including internet browser, email, accounting and a panchanga ( Indian calender system used to figure out auspicious inauspicious days) etc.
7. Can wrie in multiple languages using a "bhasha" notebook software inbuilt and a special keyboard.
8. Gesture input using a inbuilt accelerometer
Other benefits
http://amidasimputer.com/benefits/
And you can buy it from here:
http://www.amidasimputer.com/buy
I guess you need to check this Indian embassy web site
e .h tm
http://www.indianembassy.org/consular/visa_guid
EMPLOYMENT VISA: An appointment letter, contract letter, applicant's resume and proof that the organization is registered in India are required. Duration of visa would depend on the period of the contract.
And, do you sincerely believe that foreigners can just walk into US for a job without a job offer and a H1B?
Ofcourse I am not counting the illegal border crossing, but for programming jobs that is irrelevant.
You seem to be a chinese origin person, so whatever you say about china may be right, and I will not argue.
But, puhleese, don't spout ignorant statements about India like roaming tigers on streets in cities.
Another thing to remember is that India already is a mixed race society, with all shades of the color variations and features from north to south. So, being a puralistic democracy who does not suppress its citizens, are used to living with "different" looking people, free press etc. westereners will have a easier time adjusting.
Indian Culture is much different from the American one. Such migration might not help at all.. considering that the Americans will have tough time adjusting to the culture in the first place
Remember Indian's face the exactly same cultural problems when moving to US, only in reverse.
who says they don't? when was the last time you went to bangalore? You will be surprised to see the number of non-Indians working there. The only thing is that they don't work at entery level, because the salary at entery level at about $300/month is too low.
Reminds me of what Mahatma Gandhi said
"First they laugh at you, then ten they ignore you, then they fight you and then you win"
First they laugh at you --- Linux 0.** huh? that's funny.
then they ignore you -- Linux 1.** Who cares it is only for geeks, and it is only replacing othe unix
then they fight you -- Linux 2.** We can prove that windoze is better
they you win -- Linux 3.**???
For a) The reason for unemployment is mainly the bust and not outsourcing. Outsourcing is allowing some of the American companies to survive where they would not have because of the bust.
For b) I guess you did not understand me. US companies pay the offshored programmers in dollars. The dollars go into the foreign govt. reserves, but finally they have to be spent someday, and then the dollars have to come back as they have to be spent/invested in the US finally. For example of the $100 billion that Indian govt. holds, $57billion has been invested back in US treasury bills.
c) is relevant, because this implies that if US companies do not use offshore model, the products that are made here won't be able to sompete with the cheaper ones in India, resulting in even lesser jobs.
Whenever this issue comes up I always see somebody or the other clamoring for legislation or other forms of protectionism. But in doing this they make some serious assumptions, that are wrong --
a)American companies can be better off without any offshore development... No.
Reason 1... Not enough americans are getting into the engineering disciplines, and those that are do not get the grad degrees etc. Have you seen the university graduate school departments for Masters/Phd. lately? How many americans do you see? India already produces vastly larger number of Engineers/computer science degrees then USA. It had at the last count about 1200-1500 engineering schools.
Reason 2: Offshore/onshore combination development is a model that Indian companies have perfected as an art form, with the result that companies like Wipro, Infosys etc. are directly bidding for the contracts that US companies were outsourcing to them, because of lower costs. In fact IBM lists the Indian company Wipro as one of its most formidable competiters in future for its core services business. So, either US companies need to perfect the model, or start loosing contracts especially internationally
b) Stoping outsourcing for govt. contracts using legislation will help. False It would probably slow things down, but it would only mean taxing the common citizen more to pay another US citizen, i.e. redistribution of wealth, and not any creation of wealth. On the other hand outsourcing means more dollars in the hands of Indians, and what do they do with those dollars? they can do only one of the 2 things, i.e. either buy US products or invest back in US, and they do both. At the same time more wealth is created in US, because some customers save money,and the money that went out, came back again and bought more products creating even more jobs.
c) Indian companies are not creating any products.
False. Subsidiaries of US companies in India are creating complete products. See previous stories in slashdot. But even besides that India has been getting the largest amount of VC capital in Asia for last couple of years, and you will se products out soon. Some products are already there. For e.g. iflex In FY03, International Banking Systems (IBS) has ranked Flexcube as the number one selling universal banking solution in the world. Represented in over 50 countries through more than 30 corporate business partners, i-flex has gained the recognition of the first company in the world to cross the 100-installations mark for its product in less than 5 years. And there are other success stories.
And, by the way I don't know here you had the Rs 450 mocha, because the Starbucks equivalent in India, i.e. Caffe Coffee day the biggest caffee chain in India, sells mocha for only Rs 15, i.e. about 30 cents.
http://www.coffeeday.com/xpress/menu.htm
That is as I said for the experienced programmers only, because they are in short supply in India, and hence can demand a very high premium above the per capita today. But, guess what the fresh out of college programmers still get about 10,000-15,000 Rs which is about $300 at Rs45/$ while about 7 years ago, they used to get about Rs.8000 at Rs 36/$ which would again be about $300.
As the supply of experience programmers is increasing so is the pay increase is coming down. It has already happened wit anybody with less then 3 years of ecxperience, it will happen soon with others higher up the chain.
You are right to some extent about the experience programmer. But, with per capita income in India a fraction of US, and the purchasing power parity factor of 10, even if you want to maintain the exact same lifestyle as here, it will cost 1/10th. Though India is right now the 4th largest economy after US,china and Japan, in Per capita income terms, it will be a very very long time(>50 years) until either China or India catch up with US in per capita income.
P.S. for those who are confused about purchasing power parity, it roughly implies how much further would a dollar go in India. so, a factor of 10 implies that a dollar would be worth $10 out there.
If done right, it can be worth it, but as we've seen, many firms haven't been up to that challenge.
That is exactly right. Indian companies themselves have this figured out pat down with their experience in the ofshore-model as they call it. For this very reason they are now directly bidding for US contract, competing and winnig against companies like IBM, who are still trying to really figure out the model, and so have higher costs. In fact IBM lists Indian company Wipro as one of its most formidable compititer in its core service business in future.
So, either US companies need to figure out the ousource/offshore model in a hurry, or they will start loosing the IT contracts in US and especially internationally to Indian companies.
... in the normal sense of the term. Outsourcing implies farming out the job to some other company. On the other hand the examples that the article gives about Hewlett-Packard and Oracle employing the programmers in India as in-house employees. So, the capacity to innovate still remains within the company, though it moves outside the US. So, I don't see how the argument works for most of the bigger companies like HP, Oracle, IBM, GE, TI etc. etc. who run their own operations in India, and do not outsource to other companies as much.
1 /043220 0&mode=thread&tid=187&tid=98&tid=9 9
For example of innovations in subsidarys outside US see
http://www.iht.com/articles/121488.htm
and the slashdot story
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/12/2
Are you living in a time warp? hasn't been true since 1990.
you are right. But, at the same time you must remember, that if the private company does not provide value, they will not make money. There is no govt. subsidy here.
And, believe me Indian farmer(for that matter small farmers everywhere even in USA) knows the value of money.
Ah another post modded insightful, when it is obvious that the poster did not read the article.
This is an initiative by a private company, with the aim of making money, and they are making it. If it was a waste of money, they would not do it. They are using this e-choupal as a place to allow people to get information, and increase customer(read farmer) footfall, so they can sell them seeds, tractors etc.Even the providing of information part is run as a business in the franchise model.
As, for the benefits(if you would have read the article you would not need to ask this) -- a couple of actual examples should suffice. A farmer find from the Internet that the market about 200 miles away is paing Rs 5/kg higher price then his local market, rents a truck, sells his stuff at a higher price, and makes extra money.
A soyabean farmer looks at the futures market in chicago to decide how much soyabean to sow, and how much of the land to use for patatoes.
Please did you read the article? It is being run by a private sector company with the aim of making money. /. tradition to comment without reading the article, but at least the moderators should read it before modding a post insightful. But I guess that is too much to ask for.
Do you think that they would do it if it was a waste of money?
I know it is in
Misses ading a supporting link aboves px
http://www.mahindrausa.com/About/history.a
This a great idea in principle but who's paying for it? /. tradition, neither you nor the moderator who modded you insightful read the article.
In the great
This is not a govt. initiative. This is an initiative by a private company who wants to become the wall-mart of India for the rural areas. So, they figure they will open something call "e-choupal", which will serve as an information center and get the "customers" to visit. Of course they run it like a franchise model, they provide the equipment, train a local person to operate the computer, and then that trained person now can charge money for the services. So, this becomes a money making enterprise.
Of course after this they start getting customer ( read farmer) footfalls in the e-choupals and now they can sell stuff like seeds, tractors etc.
P.S. Just wanted to add this because some people have been claiming lack of tractors in India, which is totally false.
India is the world's largest tractor market, with the largest tractor company in India, and 4th largest in the world Mahindra holding a significant share of USA tractor market See here, where I have quoted from-- link
Please, don't perpetuate ignorant data.
r m_equipm ent/farm_profile.htm
Tractors are very much in use in India and in very large numbers --
Infact India is the world's largest tractor market, with the largest tractor company in India, and 4th largest in the world Mahindra holding a significant share of USA tractor market
See here, where I have quoted from--
http://www.mahindraworld.com/mahindras/fa