Yes you are probably right since Gnome 2. Gnome 1.x had a setting in the controlcenter though to switch between windowmanagers and there wasn't really a "default" one, while KDE centers heavily around KWin.
That's not such a bad thing though IMO because KWin is just as cool as Metacity. One of the things that frustrated me a little with Gnome 1.x was, that it didn't have such a fast and lightweight default WM.:) I love the new Gnome policy of "just doing the right thing". It's a good start, although I can't really work with it yet...
Actually, Gnome is mostly libraries so it can't really be bloated. The full desktop is bloated of course. But this is what I did with my old P133: echo "exec sawfish & gnome-panel" >.xinitrc startx Replace sawfish with your favorite lightweight window manager (I would suggest metacity). Now you get the nice gnome panel and a nice windowmanager with even less bloat than IceWM.:) You probably want to run some other tasks though, at least one to set the background and one to choose the mouse speed (you can do that with "xset m 4 2" if I recall correctly, where 4 and 2 are threshhold and acceleration or the other way round). You can also load the appropriate gnomecc tasks so you can still use gnomecc for configuration but I forgot the names.
It's because they can read a text, than scroll to another position to compare something and quickly return to the place they stopped reading.
Might be quite convenient... I first thought it would be a bug, too.;) I'm pretty sure that there would be better and more intuitive ways to do it than to look on the mouse cursor all the time.:)
They work on a C++ Framework for Gtk. I guess it's called "inti" or something like that.
I'm sure you will be able to do some Gtk C++ coding really soon.;)
On the other side, how good is C support for Qt?
I could also say "it will be a problem for Qt that there is no good python support".:)
I don't think, that everybody will be using only C++ in the next years. ---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
To answer your "minor question":
I was thinking more of app rewrites, that already exists. For example they wrote a new Windowmanager instead of using an existing one. They wrote a new rendering engine instead of using mozilla (ok, KHTML has it's good place), and so on. Of course what they want to write those apps new, because they want to do it better (like arts). But it sill has it's disadvantages. ---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
I know apps.kde.org very good. I even posted my own Qt app there a while ago (netraider).
I know that there are many Qt applications, but I have the impression, that most applications for KDE aren't very finished yet or doesn't do anything important. Like frontends for small console applications. I asked for some suggestions of KDE applications, which I could REALLY need. I would look at them and see, if there is an equal or better Gtk alternative.
Here are some Gtk examples. Are there equal or better KDE alternatives? I'm not sure:
The Gimp
sodipodi
xmms (Ok, mp3players are a matter of taste. But xmms is still running on most of the KDE screenshots I see;))
Evolution (it's quite finished, aethera is not)
Gnapster (I'm not sure if Knapster has become so much better since my last look at it)
Gabber
Galeon
Downloader 4 X (the best I ever saw)
Abiword (Ok, Kword soon but but not yet)
xchat
all the graphical Progeny Debian configuration stuff
end others
well, KDevelop is something, that KDE has ahead. Developing small applications may be much more easy with KDE.
I think a strength of Gtk/Gnome is, that applications can be written in Gtk only (NOT Gnome dependent) and still look very conistens to other Gnome or Gtk apps.
This isn't possible with Qt, cause they don't share one theme. Qt and KDE apps can look quite different and inconsistent. I'm sure that is the reason why there are not much Qt applications. So Gtk hast the advantage of being used by almost everyone, not only by Gnome folks.
Well, I used KDE for several month (or years, not sure). I EVER used some Gtk apps. Now since the day I use Gtk/Gnome, I don't even have the need to have Qt installed on my system. There is no application, that could be interesting for me. Maybe you can proof me wrong.;)
Or course this can be different if you really need KDevelop or Konqueror. I don't. ---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
I just found out what I'm doing wrong... I shouldn't send this as HTML formatted. Didn't know, that it wouldn't use my linebreaks, sorry. This is quite unreadable.;) ---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
> My impression of the differences from an end-user perspective (note:based entirely on hearsay, posts on Slashdot, voices in my head, and other incredibly reliable sources!) is that KDE has a more "tightly 'integrated'" feel than Gnome does
I think that's true. KDE feels much more like "one piece" of Software. Everything looks and feels the same and works very good together.
But it has also two disadvantages:
1. It can be boring after a while
2. Because KDE apps are always complete rewrite or ports, there are not as many KDE apps as Gnome/Gtk apps. At least not as much important applications. I figured, that there is no KDE Version of a program, for which there wouldn't be an even or better Gtk application. Maybe I'm wrong, feel free to suggest KDE applications which _I_ really need and I will try to figure, if there is a Gtk alternative.:) Konqueror is of course something special, but I like Galeon and Nautilus much more. Subjective of course.:)
> I also get the impression(again, just an impression) that Galeon isn't yet as "polished" as Konqueror is [this may or may not still be true).
No, it's not true anymore. Galeon has become an outstanding application in an impressive short amount of time. I never saw a browser with so much _usefull_ new features. And it can do everything, that other Browsers like Konqueror can do. At least I think so. Only Konqueror's "custom frame splitting" isn't supported by Galeon. But I'm not sure, if it's THAT important.;) I like combined tabbed browing/new windows much more.
Of course the embedded Mozilla thing needs still some polish, but Mozilla is really close to 1.0 and it's getting awesome great (and even fast).
> Yet another possibly unfounded impression - I get the feeling that KDE development is moving faster than Gnome development at the moment, though I gather that Gnome development is still clicking along quite well.
That's just an impression.:) KDE had their great days when releasing KDE2. They shipped enhancement to KDE2 really soon. But where is the new technologie now? You cannot release such outstanding software every few weeks. Now it's Gnome time with Bonobo, Evolution, Nautilus, Galeon, Gnome 1.4, Red Carpet, etc, etc.
I guess both projects are VERY active.
> In the end, honestly, I think it's as much a "look and feel"
Yeah. Qt and Gtk look&feel is very differnt. Qt feels much like win32 widgets. I liked it when I was new to Linux, but I was bored after a while.:)
The default Gtk theme also looks ugly, but there are a lot of great Gtk-Engines. They are fast and beautyfull. Just look at those gems as Raleigh, Crux, Xenophilia (especially Xenophilia-Progeny) and others. But Qt is still a nice Toolkit, I just cannot stand it's look and feel anymore. It's annoying, that you can't define a theme for all Qt applications (only KDE can do that), and there are almost none good themes. And I like none of those almost none.:(
It's worse a try. KDE is especially impressive at first sight. And it's fun to use, either for a short while, or for a long while.
I used KDE for many month. I never liked Gnome... than I got sick of KDE, but I still didn't like Gnome. I used IceWM most of the time, tried blackbox and new Windowmanagers... than I found Gnome and now I use one of those "big, ugly, unneccessary" desktop environments again.;)
And worst of all, I even like it.
Btw, the major reason why I like Gnome is it's flexibility. I really look to have total control of what I want to see, use, load. Gnome/Gtk is very flexible, I could even use blackbox tomorrow with all my Gnome and Gtk apps. I wouldn't see any difference. That's why I miss a shared Theme for all Qt applications. And I found KDE applications to load incredible slow if not started in KDE (and they start a lot of KDE background processes). ---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
I already switched from potato to woody, back to potato and to progeny. There was no problem. Also I always mix unstable packages with progeny. And third party packages. Currently I do a dist-upgrade to Progeny 1.0. Well, I never had problems. And if I have, it takes seconds to fix it. Well, seconds of work but hours of downloading, so I try to avoid problems.;) But it's not much of a problem, cause I do most of my downloading stuff while I'm working with the system. It never really broke.
If my system is too unstable, because of too much unstable packages, I sometimes do a apt-get remove libgtk and install everything again... this is also nice to set up a new gnome version (for example, if I want to try out Ximian or whatever). Of course it's a waste of time, but it's fun and it's soooooo damn easy to do.:) I try to finde the most stable packages, cause sometimes those packages in "unstable" are much more stable than those in "stable"... ---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
Thx, I was looking for this line.:)
There should be more info about the apt-get lines on their website. ---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
> If I wanted cutesy easy crap, I'd stick with Red Hat or Windows. I don't and I won't.
So what is the problem? You can still use Debian. Progeny is for people that like those functionality and ease of use. It doesn't pretend to be for everybody. But why do you have problem with a distribution you are NOT forced to use?
A lot of people will like it and that is a good thing. Bitching about that is braindead. ---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
I think you are wrong. The secret of makeing money with GPL Software is to NOT rely on boxes sale. They rely on support and extra services (like their premier product "Linux NOW", which they will be develop soon). For those widespread use of their system is much more important than sold boxes. And that is why they encourage everyone to get their distribution for free, even if they don't make money with it. It will make them popular and well-known. THAT is the key to be successfull with GPL Software. Use the software as advertising and show the world what you can do.
Just look at Linus Thorvalds. He never sold Linux, but he already states that he makes more money with Linux, than with his job. Popularity is the key to success. The funny thing is, that most companys already know that, cause they pay millions for advertising. But they don't understand that a successfull and widely used free software product, is the best possible advertising. ---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
Exactly. The Kernel is of course as stable as in every other Distro. To argue about this is just stupid.
But the Debianpackages are of a very high Quality, even in unstable. I know several SuSE versions, Mandrake 7.2 and several Debian versions and can say, that Debian packages are usually very stable.
Yes, Progeny is Gnomecentric. They choose to provide a great default GNOME desktop and their configuration tools are all written for GNOME.
They don't really support KDE, they put only the packages on the CD for people, that want to see it. What's the problem? This is exactly, what SuSE is doing with KDE. Did you ever try the Gnoem Distribution, included with SuSE? I did. And prefered KDE a long time, just because I thought GNOME would be as ugly as shown in SuSE or Mandrake.
It's absolutely ok, to concentrate on ONE desktop and make this one really great. If you don't like GNOME, you should probaly not choose Progeny.
And you should probaly not choose SuSE, if you don't like KDE. Be happy, that you still have to power to choose if you know what you want.
yes and it is important.
just imagine you would have to choose AOL Email oder Microsoft Email and every public mail server would be owned by AOL or Microsoft.
what a great scenario.
IM is just the next step in internet communications, but it will never be really usefull, until it is free like email, irc, etc.
jabber is the only way to go.
it's not X.
i compiled it for X and it uses less memory than opera and is even faster (startup time).
so i guess KDE is the dog.
just compare 5mb of memory usage for this non-kde konqueror with 15mb memory usage for a kde konqueror (+ several running kdeinit processes)
yeah, konq/embedded will be 10 times smaller:)
i'm just working on making it something useable for me, it's not that hard.
i guess we will see a quite impressive non-kde konqueror REALLY soon!
i write this using konqueror and icewm.
this kdeinit processes are indeed nasty and konqueror together with this processes is not much less memory hungry than any other browser.
but it's still fast and clean, so i prefer it to any other browser at the moment.
btw, someone said to me that they already included a counter for the kdeinit processes in current cvs, so that they will quit if konqueror is terminated. this is a nice step forward, but it's still a waste of memory:(
Slashdot Mirror
Yes you are probably right since Gnome 2.
:) I love the new Gnome policy of "just doing the right thing". It's a good start, although I can't really work with it yet...
Gnome 1.x had a setting in the controlcenter though to switch between windowmanagers and there wasn't really a "default" one, while KDE centers heavily around KWin.
That's not such a bad thing though IMO because KWin is just as cool as Metacity. One of the things that frustrated me a little with Gnome 1.x was, that it didn't have such a fast and lightweight default WM.
Actually, Gnome is mostly libraries so it can't really be bloated. The full desktop is bloated of course. But this is what I did with my old P133: .xinitrc :) You probably want to run some other tasks though, at least one to set the background and one to choose the mouse speed (you can do that with "xset m 4 2" if I recall correctly, where 4 and 2 are threshhold and acceleration or the other way round). You can also load the appropriate gnomecc tasks so you can still use gnomecc for configuration but I forgot the names.
echo "exec sawfish & gnome-panel" >
startx
Replace sawfish with your favorite lightweight window manager (I would suggest metacity).
Now you get the nice gnome panel and a nice windowmanager with even less bloat than IceWM.
It's because they can read a text, than scroll to another position to compare something and quickly return to the place they stopped reading. ;) I'm pretty sure that there would be better and more intuitive ways to do it than to look on the mouse cursor all the time. :)
Might be quite convenient... I first thought it would be a bug, too.
They work on a C++ Framework for Gtk. I guess it's called "inti" or something like that. ;)
:)
I'm sure you will be able to do some Gtk C++ coding really soon.
On the other side, how good is C support for Qt?
I could also say "it will be a problem for Qt that there is no good python support".
I don't think, that everybody will be using only C++ in the next years.
---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
To answer your "minor question":
I was thinking more of app rewrites, that already exists. For example they wrote a new Windowmanager instead of using an existing one. They wrote a new rendering engine instead of using mozilla (ok, KHTML has it's good place), and so on. Of course what they want to write those apps new, because they want to do it better (like arts). But it sill has it's disadvantages.
---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
I know apps.kde.org very good. I even posted my own Qt app there a while ago (netraider). I know that there are many Qt applications, but I have the impression, that most applications for KDE aren't very finished yet or doesn't do anything important. Like frontends for small console applications. I asked for some suggestions of KDE applications, which I could REALLY need. I would look at them and see, if there is an equal or better Gtk alternative. Here are some Gtk examples. Are there equal or better KDE alternatives? I'm not sure: The Gimp sodipodi xmms (Ok, mp3players are a matter of taste. But xmms is still running on most of the KDE screenshots I see ;))
Evolution (it's quite finished, aethera is not)
Gnapster (I'm not sure if Knapster has become so much better since my last look at it)
Gabber
Galeon
Downloader 4 X (the best I ever saw)
Abiword (Ok, Kword soon but but not yet)
xchat
all the graphical Progeny Debian configuration stuff
end others
well, KDevelop is something, that KDE has ahead. Developing small applications may be much more easy with KDE.
I think a strength of Gtk/Gnome is, that applications can be written in Gtk only (NOT Gnome dependent) and still look very conistens to other Gnome or Gtk apps.
This isn't possible with Qt, cause they don't share one theme. Qt and KDE apps can look quite different and inconsistent. I'm sure that is the reason why there are not much Qt applications. So Gtk hast the advantage of being used by almost everyone, not only by Gnome folks.
Well, I used KDE for several month (or years, not sure). I EVER used some Gtk apps. Now since the day I use Gtk/Gnome, I don't even have the need to have Qt installed on my system. There is no application, that could be interesting for me. Maybe you can proof me wrong. ;)
Or course this can be different if you really need KDevelop or Konqueror. I don't.
---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
I just found out what I'm doing wrong... I shouldn't send this as HTML formatted. Didn't know, that it wouldn't use my linebreaks, sorry. This is quite unreadable. ;)
---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
> My impression of the differences from an end-user perspective (note:based entirely on hearsay, posts on Slashdot, voices in my head, and other incredibly reliable sources!) is that KDE has a more "tightly 'integrated'" feel than Gnome does
:) Konqueror is of course something special, but I like Galeon and Nautilus much more. Subjective of course. :)
> I also get the impression(again, just an impression) that Galeon isn't yet as "polished" as Konqueror is [this may or may not still be true).
No, it's not true anymore. Galeon has become an outstanding application in an impressive short amount of time. I never saw a browser with so much _usefull_ new features. And it can do everything, that other Browsers like Konqueror can do. At least I think so. Only Konqueror's "custom frame splitting" isn't supported by Galeon. But I'm not sure, if it's THAT important. ;) I like combined tabbed browing/new windows much more.
Of course the embedded Mozilla thing needs still some polish, but Mozilla is really close to 1.0 and it's getting awesome great (and even fast).
> Yet another possibly unfounded impression - I get the feeling that KDE development is moving faster than Gnome development at the moment, though I gather that Gnome development is still clicking along quite well.
That's just an impression. :) KDE had their great days when releasing KDE2. They shipped enhancement to KDE2 really soon. But where is the new technologie now? You cannot release such outstanding software every few weeks. Now it's Gnome time with Bonobo, Evolution, Nautilus, Galeon, Gnome 1.4, Red Carpet, etc, etc.
I guess both projects are VERY active.
> In the end, honestly, I think it's as much a "look and feel"
Yeah. Qt and Gtk look&feel is very differnt. Qt feels much like win32 widgets. I liked it when I was new to Linux, but I was bored after a while. :)
The default Gtk theme also looks ugly, but there are a lot of great Gtk-Engines. They are fast and beautyfull. Just look at those gems as Raleigh, Crux, Xenophilia (especially Xenophilia-Progeny) and others. But Qt is still a nice Toolkit, I just cannot stand it's look and feel anymore. It's annoying, that you can't define a theme for all Qt applications (only KDE can do that), and there are almost none good themes. And I like none of those almost none. :(
It's worse a try. KDE is especially impressive at first sight. And it's fun to use, either for a short while, or for a long while.
I used KDE for many month. I never liked Gnome... than I got sick of KDE, but I still didn't like Gnome. I used IceWM most of the time, tried blackbox and new Windowmanagers... than I found Gnome and now I use one of those "big, ugly, unneccessary" desktop environments again. ;)
And worst of all, I even like it.
Btw, the major reason why I like Gnome is it's flexibility. I really look to have total control of what I want to see, use, load. Gnome/Gtk is very flexible, I could even use blackbox tomorrow with all my Gnome and Gtk apps. I wouldn't see any difference. That's why I miss a shared Theme for all Qt applications. And I found KDE applications to load incredible slow if not started in KDE (and they start a lot of KDE background processes).
I think that's true. KDE feels much more like "one piece" of Software. Everything looks and feels the same and works very good together. But it has also two disadvantages: 1. It can be boring after a while 2. Because KDE apps are always complete rewrite or ports, there are not as many KDE apps as Gnome/Gtk apps. At least not as much important applications. I figured, that there is no KDE Version of a program, for which there wouldn't be an even or better Gtk application. Maybe I'm wrong, feel free to suggest KDE applications which _I_ really need and I will try to figure, if there is a Gtk alternative.
---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
I already switched from potato to woody, back to potato and to progeny. There was no problem. Also I always mix unstable packages with progeny. And third party packages. Currently I do a dist-upgrade to Progeny 1.0. Well, I never had problems. And if I have, it takes seconds to fix it. Well, seconds of work but hours of downloading, so I try to avoid problems. ;) But it's not much of a problem, cause I do most of my downloading stuff while I'm working with the system. It never really broke.
If my system is too unstable, because of too much unstable packages, I sometimes do a apt-get remove libgtk and install everything again... this is also nice to set up a new gnome version (for example, if I want to try out Ximian or whatever). Of course it's a waste of time, but it's fun and it's soooooo damn easy to do. :) I try to finde the most stable packages, cause sometimes those packages in "unstable" are much more stable than those in "stable" ...
---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
Thx, I was looking for this line. :)
There should be more info about the apt-get lines on their website.
---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
> If I wanted cutesy easy crap, I'd stick with Red Hat or Windows. I don't and I won't. So what is the problem? You can still use Debian. Progeny is for people that like those functionality and ease of use. It doesn't pretend to be for everybody. But why do you have problem with a distribution you are NOT forced to use? A lot of people will like it and that is a good thing. Bitching about that is braindead.
---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
I think you are wrong. The secret of makeing money with GPL Software is to NOT rely on boxes sale. They rely on support and extra services (like their premier product "Linux NOW", which they will be develop soon). For those widespread use of their system is much more important than sold boxes. And that is why they encourage everyone to get their distribution for free, even if they don't make money with it. It will make them popular and well-known. THAT is the key to be successfull with GPL Software. Use the software as advertising and show the world what you can do. Just look at Linus Thorvalds. He never sold Linux, but he already states that he makes more money with Linux, than with his job. Popularity is the key to success. The funny thing is, that most companys already know that, cause they pay millions for advertising. But they don't understand that a successfull and widely used free software product, is the best possible advertising.
---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
Exactly. The Kernel is of course as stable as in every other Distro. To argue about this is just stupid. But the Debianpackages are of a very high Quality, even in unstable. I know several SuSE versions, Mandrake 7.2 and several Debian versions and can say, that Debian packages are usually very stable.
Yes, Progeny is Gnomecentric. They choose to provide a great default GNOME desktop and their configuration tools are all written for GNOME. They don't really support KDE, they put only the packages on the CD for people, that want to see it. What's the problem? This is exactly, what SuSE is doing with KDE. Did you ever try the Gnoem Distribution, included with SuSE? I did. And prefered KDE a long time, just because I thought GNOME would be as ugly as shown in SuSE or Mandrake. It's absolutely ok, to concentrate on ONE desktop and make this one really great. If you don't like GNOME, you should probaly not choose Progeny. And you should probaly not choose SuSE, if you don't like KDE. Be happy, that you still have to power to choose if you know what you want.
i think his point was, that a lot of gnome users don't use kde apps, not that most users use gnome.
yes and it is important. just imagine you would have to choose AOL Email oder Microsoft Email and every public mail server would be owned by AOL or Microsoft. what a great scenario. IM is just the next step in internet communications, but it will never be really usefull, until it is free like email, irc, etc. jabber is the only way to go.
is this happyhacking message a bug in my browser or in slashdot? (if you don't know what i am talking about it's probaly a browser bug ;))
look at this one: http://home.wtal.de/borgmann/netraider2.png this is how a browser has to be :)
it's not X. i compiled it for X and it uses less memory than opera and is even faster (startup time). so i guess KDE is the dog. just compare 5mb of memory usage for this non-kde konqueror with 15mb memory usage for a kde konqueror (+ several running kdeinit processes)
not much. i guess it could be easily done, but who wants to pay for the qt/win license? or is it free too?
yeah, konq/embedded will be 10 times smaller :)
i'm just working on making it something useable for me, it's not that hard.
i guess we will see a quite impressive non-kde konqueror REALLY soon!
i write this using konqueror and icewm. this kdeinit processes are indeed nasty and konqueror together with this processes is not much less memory hungry than any other browser. but it's still fast and clean, so i prefer it to any other browser at the moment. btw, someone said to me that they already included a counter for the kdeinit processes in current cvs, so that they will quit if konqueror is terminated. this is a nice step forward, but it's still a waste of memory :(