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Trolltech Spills Beans On Qt 3.0
Gord.ca writes: "Linuxprogramming has
a
preview of Qt 3.0. New goodies include database integration,
multiple monitor, 64-bit support, their own component model an improved Qt Designer & international text display. Doesn't seem to be any reference to 3.0 on the Trolltech website, nor guestimates of release date." Update: 04/09 11:18 PM by T : Here's something on the Trolltech site about the new release -- sounds nice.
lowest UID troll?
> Why the heck should I choose KDE? Both Sun and
> HP have announced the replacement of CDE with
> Gnome. RedHat (the largest distributor, at least
> in the US??) favors Gnome as well, though they
> do ship KDE.
In general KDE gives you an environment in which you can be more productive, both as a user as well as a developer. A lot of people find that important and that's one of the reasons they use KDE.
I have no idea why companies like Sun, HP and RedHat favor gnome, I do know that RedHat lost a lot of its customers to Mandrake in the time they didn't include KDE in their distro.
Due to market pressure they started to include KDE despite their previous claims that they couldn't do that. I guess HP and Sun currently lack that kind of pressure (why else would they be able to sell CDE for so many years?)
Cheers,
Waldo
Wait a sec...
How are database integration and 64-bit support supposed to make my pr0n files smaller and better quality?
Oh...we're not talking about the same QT, are we?
Well, it will let the average user run the new nice database-using applications in his local language, on his 64-bit computer, diplsyaing on his several monitors.
As for the other comments:
Why does QT need to access databases, instead of programs doing it themselves?
Perhaps for the embedded people.
X does multi-monitor. Tell me why QT needs to
For the embedded people.
No, you're definitely right on this one. Add support for .0001 % of the linux population so they can run X a little quicker. Good usage of time
Actually I think it's called future-proofing. You might want to look into it. Cleaning up the code and ensuring it works on 64 bit platforms is a good thing to do.
I can see this more then the others, but I still believe it can be implemented outside of QT.
As another poster already stated, the toolkit needs to know about this for obvious reasons. Every international-ready toolkit I can think of has this.
Anyway I can see exactly why they're doing SQL and further distancing themselves from X. As an embedded programmer I'd love for QT to be able to give me a backend-independent SQL interface. DBI rox muh sox but Perl is a pig. That's important when your processor gets a whole 4 bogoMIPS.
I always figured it came down to C or C++ Qt/KDE is C++ where as Gnome supports C. The last I saw, some while back, Gnome had C++ wrappers but they were a long ways off from being documented as well as Qt.
So, if you want to write in C, use Gnome, if you want C++ the choice is yours.
Personally I like the C++ route with Qt.
-- Many men would appreciate a woman's mind more if they could fondle it
Why the heck should I choose KDE? Both Sun and HP have announced the replacement of CDE with Gnome
:-)
They were using CDE for crying out loud! That should be warning enough to not follow their lead!
Personally I use KDE2 because it actually works and adds value to my desktop. I've tried GNOME dozens of time, only to remove it from my X session the next day. KDE is much more integrated, or at least, it feels like it's more integrated. And it seems to be improving at a much faster rate than GNOME. Part of GNOME's handicap is perhaps the fact that it's based on a toolkit where designing a new widget requires copying an existing widget's source and modifying it, duplicating much of the mechanisms you get for free, in an object oriented language.
-adnans
"In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people." --Linus Torvalds
Because of glade! Glade enabled me to get an interface going quickly without messing too much with gtk+. And at the time Qt was not free enough. I'm working on abstracting the GUI though since the current interface is pathetic :-)
-adnans
"In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people." --Linus Torvalds
Please demonstrate :)
"In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people." --Linus Torvalds
I think I can take a stab at this by saying that they're possibly trying to compete with, or fill the diminishing market of, RogueWave DBTools. Before STL was a big part of C++, RogueWave was one of the primary distributors of 'STL-like' libraries and classes for C++. One of the packages they sell is DBTools, which provides a uniform interface to arbitrary SQL databses. It is a very helpful tool.
Ok, so KDE has some of this stuff in it. Not every user of Qt uses KDE. On my SPARC Solaris box, I don't use KDE, but I do have a few Qt apps.
--
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
I like the idea of the database-aware widgets and using an API supporting ODBC, but there really needs to be more native-mode drivers. Leaving out a few biggies like MS SQL Server and DB2 will really slow down adoption of Qt3.0 in companies using those environments. I'm sure that if they worked with IBM, they'd get a DB2 drivers PDQ. As for Microsoft, *somebody* needs to write it. There are so many people out there running SQL Server it's just not funny, and being able to drop in a Qt-based desktop environment in a primarily Microsoft shop would really help establish an outpost to prepare for invasion of Microsoft's turf. I don't know if they have any plans for it, but supporting SOAP would be great, too. The more MS protocols that are supported, the better, allowing nearly 'Drag & Drop' replacement of MS Desktops with more acceptable ones.
Well, I develop GNOME applications and I have no idea what he's talking about. KDE is a very nice desktop with a very nice API (it leaves GNOME behind in many regards -- as does GNOME in other areas do the reverse). All I heard from both your post and the parent was: "Whine whine whine whine. Whine whine, Windows, whine.". Sorry, but this is open source, and if you want to change something then feel free to do so.
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
Is it Moron Day on Slashdot? Should we change the name to "Slashdot: News for Whiners. Stuff for the clueless". Go read C-NET if you want to hear about how coddled you'll be with the next release of consumption-ware goodies from people who want your money. I won't even bother addressing your post because it's beyond help; if you can't see the benefits for what they are then please spare us the public display of ignorance.
Have a nice day.
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
International text display: If I am not mistaken...not everyone reads/writes English...
Well, I think work wouldn't care much for me asking "sure, I'm running a 'rogue' operating system, but could you please get me more RAM so I can run my bloated desktop-of-choice?"
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
I like KDE because of the look and feel of it. It just feels right to me.
--fatboy
I was under the impression that you just needed to license Qt if you were developing non-free software. I don't think sun would have to pay a license fee for every copy of the OS shipped.
It is a per-developer license, not per end user.
-- Thrakkerzog
a whole slew of stable, fast and good wordprocessor will become available for UNIX
A slew? I'd settle for Kword not crashing every 5 minutes. Koffice has a great design (lifted straight from M$, but hey, go with what works), and in terms of control over layout and embedding pictures, graphs or tables, kword is lightyears ahead of Abiword, but it's just not stable enough.
0 1 - just my two bits
Hope this helps.
ObJectBridge (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.
Finding God in a Dog
Because Qt is a cross-platform library! There isn't necessarily X underneath.
No, you're definitely right on this one. Add support for .0001 % of the linux population so they can run X a little quicker. Good usage of time
You know, instead of being a prick just because someone adds a software feature you don't need, try writing some software of your own.
All in all, you seem to believe Qt == KDE == Linux. Go play with sharp objects instead of trying to understand anything.
If you're a student and cannot afford a BMW then tell me how can you afford a Caddy or a Vette? Last time I've checked they were selling for about the same amount of dough...
And dunno why, but in terms of reliability I tend to trust a bimmer more than any american car. (don't get me wrong, I own a Cougar... and I could have afforded an entry level bimmer, but they just don't appeal to me aesthetically -- matter of taste)
If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
I did not mean to say that Sun would make a commercial product out of KDE...obviously that would violate the GPL
What I meant was that they could now ship KDE with thier commercial product, (Solaris). This of course assumes that they follow the conditions of the GPL and provide source, etc.
Before ranting, maybe try to understand a comment before assuming it is just wrong.
While database API encapsulation is usefull and welcomed, another attempt to integrate GUI and database will surely fail. I love Borland Delphi to death, but data-aware controls suck even there. It looked like a good idea, but I wish it would just die. Problem with them is that they buy you some productivity upfront, but then you just gonna hit the wall of limitations, with no way out. And at this point you are stuck too deep in a project to change every QtDbWhatever to QtWhatever.
My advice to TrollTech: if you are going to do something simular to Delphi, don't even bother!
Glad you cleared the matter :)
The 'American Balanced Purity' is some fat fuck stuffing a Big Mac in his greasy hole.
You obviously have zero knowledge of design, and you're also a fucking idiot.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
> Trolltech is in Norway. I don't think it is fair to pick on English,
OK, I forgive them. I don't forgive the journalists who cut&pasted thier press-release without proofreading it.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
Shouldn't that be Automatic? Is this some nuance of American English that I was unaware of, or are the widgets synchronised by little volvos? Or does no one in the place know how to use English.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
I disagree!
Having read the fine print at trolltech, my guess is that Qt can use the funtionalities of the underlying architecture. Don't forget that Qt is cross-platform and while multi-head (for example) might be available for X, it might not be for MacOS. I guess that's the biggest challenge for the Trolls: keep everything consistent on every platform.
Cheers,
Matt
News about the Kettle Open Source project: on my blog
If you like pizza, eat it.
Why would anyone eat pizza? It so incredibly lame, not to mention it's frequent stability problems! People that eat pizza obviously do not want any real food.
I prefer hamburgers. If you haven't tried one lately, I suggest you go get yesterday's or today's version. Very nice!
--
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
You must smoke some serious crack! QT looks like windows widgets, not GTK. GTK looks nothing like windows, so how the hell can it feel like a broken windows machine? QT feels that way to me, because it's so windows like.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Nowhere in the GPL does it state you cannot make a commercial product with GPL'd software. The GPL simply says that if you ship binaries of your software, you must also make the source readily available if someone asks for it.
That's pretty much it. No, no more. All the rest of it is legal embellishment to classify what software falls under what jurisdiction, etc. Also, (because this is a major peeve of mine) commercial software does not mean "closed source"! Get that through your heads people. QT is commercial software, Linux distros are commercial software, Eazel is/will be commercial software. Any software that brings in money is by definition "commercial software". Nowhere in the definition of commercial does it say you cannot release your source, or that if you do, you cease to become commercial. Just like it doesn't state in the GPL that if you sell open source software, it ceases to be open source.
-----
"People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them"
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
I did not mean to say that Sun would make a commercial product out of KDE...obviously that would violate the GPL
No it wouldn't. God I hate it when people say this. See my other post in this thread.
-----
"People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them"
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
Why the heck should I choose KDE?
The neat thing is that you don't have to. KDE apps will run fine in a Gnome environment (and vice versa). As long as you have all the proper libraries, they coexist quite nicely. So if you're hooked on Gnome but find a KDE app you can't live without, you don't have to abandon Gnome.
Yet Another Web Site
Don't be stupid. QT is a portable GUI toolkit. It's not part of the KDE project and it's use is not limited to KDE. You could have saved yourself a lot of time by simply noting that most users of Qt aren't from the KDE camp and that Qt should not be saddled by its increasing popularity because of KDE. Arguing that a cross-platform GUI toolkit should be restricted in its functionality by the existence of similar tools provided by a platform-specific client of the library is inherently flawed and incalculably short-sighted.
If a corporation is a personhood, is owning stock slavery?
Pretty much off topic. But I have over the last week I've been writing, in python using pyGTK, python-gnome and libglade a little application for leeching files from FTP sites (getting only one file from a site at once, delaying between retries, getting recursive directory listings for selecting the files you want), it's multi-threaded but otherwise a fairly simple program.
:-))), but it would have been much simpler with some even basic documentation about how to write a nice OO way for using libglade in python.
:-)
Now, I hadn't coded Python at all before this, and similarly I hadn't coded GTK in any language before either.
Learning Python was a snap - nice language by the way. But working out how to use pyGTK, python-gnome and libglade in a nice OO way - what a joke !
There is basically no documentation on how to do this, the documentation that came with pyGTK et all basically said "look in the examples", but the examples were non-oo basically using the C gtk functions. If I was using an OO language I wanted to code in an OO way - it would make things simpler from my multi-threaded perspective anyway.
I ended up doing a search through the net to find a starting point for using libglade with python in a more OO way and using some posts I found to a mailing list converted that method to being truely OO (so I make classes that contain initialisation code to load up the XML, display the appropriate widgets, connect up the signals to handlers defined within the class (within the object instance) an anything else specific to that class, then when I want to make a `mainWindow' I can just do myMainWindow = mainWindow() and I have a self contained mainWindow object.
Even now I still have a guess half the time at what calling format I should be using for functions - which you have to `translate' from the GTK C reference documentation.
Now that I know roughly what I am doing, it is pretty straightforward (even if I am just hacking it togethor (design ?! who needs that
NB : the reason I wanted to code in pyGTK/python-gnome was that TkInter didn't have the widgets that I wanted, whereas GTK does, and as a nice advantage it looks nice on my desktop
---
James Sleeman
NZ Electronics Enthusiasts: Check out my Trade Me Listings
I'll bite.
Okay, so they seem to have cloned some of the capabilities of KDevelop and others. My question is WHY? So they can sell it to windows users?: have you fired up KDevelop? It actually uses this tollkit allready. They must have made some improvements--which is good for everyone. I think the big advantage to having a gui builder is being able to play with your UI while you're figuring it out. It's important to get right, and difficult to do from the source.
I agree that http and SQL support don't really belong in QT, and are probably better fit for KDE. However, remember Trolltech's market is people who want to write platform-indepent apps, and since KDE doesn't exist on Windows, this move makes sense for them.
Maybe that's what's really upseting you: Trolltech's trying to make it easy to write cross-platform apps, and they're encroaching on KDE's current territory. But, I don't believe they can port KDE to windows without GPLing QT/windows. To do this the `right way' without duplicating KDE's efforts, they would have to coordinate with KDE, and maybe even GPL some more code.
Remember, KDE doesn't have to use QT 3.0's extra features if it doesn't want them. Also, thanks to the GPL, anyone is free to branch development at any time.
> Non-english speaking Linux users? Nah
hmm, most of the world doesn't have english as native language.
You should really check this baby out.
(Please browse at -1 to read this comment.)
Yes. This is the infamous "viral" nature of the GPL. GPLed software may not be distributed as a composite work with non-GPLed software without a special exception being written into the license. That's where the "But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License," come into play. Since the core of KDE, including Qt, is distributed as a coherent unit (and simply breaking Qt off into a separate tarball isn't enough) then the whole needs to be GPLed. As an alternative, though, you may include a special exception saying that it's OK to distribute the GPLed stuff with this specific non-GPLed stuff- and RMS did say that he felt that this was implied by the original authors distributing it that way- but that only applies if you have the right to change the licensing terms, i.e. you own the copyright. If you've incorporated somebody else's GPLed code, you'll have to get their permission to add the permission to distribute with the non-GPLed stuff. Of course this is now rather academic, since Qt is now available under the GPL.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
Always. Think about commercial products like RedHat, Mandrake, etc. They're selling GPLed code and nobody even blinks. The GPL specifies only that source must be made available for the program and derived works. IOW, as long Sun, HP, etc. are willing to send the source, they're free to redistribute Gnome or KDE, and charge whatever they damn well feel like for it, to their hearts' content.
My general impression is that the big limitation is when you talk about linking to a shared library. If the library is narrowly enough shared that it must be distributed with the program that depends on it, then the program must be GPLed if the library is. If the library is LGPLed, though, then programs that depend on it and are distributed with it can be released under any license. There's some uncertainty, though, primarily as a result of this bit of section 2 of the GPL:
There's obviously some wriggle room there, but my general impression is that this means that the whole core of Gnome or KDE must be licensed under the GPL if any part of it is; this is why RMS had problems with the GPLed KDE depending on a non-GPLed Qt. OTOH, other packages that are not distributed as part of the core but assume that it's already running on your machine need not be GPLed. This is a big win for a company like Sun or HP, since it means that they can distribute separate optional commercial software packages that depend on GPLed packages that are part of the base OS (like GTK or Qt). Equally important is this other bit of section 2:
IOW, it's perfectly OK to put a GPLed program onto a CD containing Solaris, HPUX, etc. so long as it's clearly a separate program and you offer the source. There's no need to distribute GPLed chunks of your code separately from non-GPLed sections, just so long as it's clear what things fall under which license.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
While some things sound nice.... Shouldn't things like multi-head monitor support be in X. Any why is ODBC like functionality now in my GUI toolkit????? Quick someone get the Midol to relieve the bloat.
Enjoy having 2 good things around. I don't think "one desktop environment" world domination whould be fun. A Gnome Monopoly. Ridiculous. A KDE monopoly, sounds even weirder :)
Do you talk about dev versions of 0.17? Did you read http://www.ca.us.rasterman.com/pages/e.html ? Enligthenment has kept its habbits of improving :)
Well what's your point? "We don't need advanced features"? It's good to have them around.
self promoted
with what?
====
Crudely Drawn Games
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
While you are quick to point out that a Dodge Neon and win95 are american, you're also forgetting that so are:
intel
Corvettes
cadiallacs
*BSD
So, your 'pro-european' claim of superiority is rather short sided. What hardware has europe produced lately? What kind of cars have they produced that *I* can afford (I'm a college student on a limited budget, I cant afford a BMW or Benz, sorry). You're assuming that the most expensive (cost, and effort) is always the best, when that's not necessarily the case. Windows takes NO work to use, that makes it GREAT for older people who havent been using computers their whole lives, and young people who dont know how to hack shell scripts to make their lives easier.
There is nothing wrong with something being 'american,' the overall appearance can help familiarize a new program to smooth out the learning curve. Your pro-Euro, pro-linux zealot behavior isnt needed. Go hang out in kuro5hin.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
I agree with you for the most part, but I take issue in the fact that KDE is significantly more stable than Gnome. I feel for the most part, the instablilities in Gnome come from the applications used by individuals. Most of the Gnome crashes I have endured have come when running BETA quality third party apps, and very rarely do I have problems when running final releases.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
How about you SHUT THE FUCK UP?
Yes, Sun, HP and others are rushing to dump the CDE (which they developed and mismanaged) to back development of GNOME. I'm not scared that they'll do to GNOME what they did to CDE, are you? So indeed. Why use KDE? :)
Yes, I'm sure you'll never use the text translation abilities of Qt. But then the Chinese guy who tries to port your app over will appreciate it. Linux is not US/English central. It's mulicultural, and it's nice that some people are keeping ease of coding for everyone in mind.
This is funny, because it sounds like the old "Why use Linux, b/c the major players have gone with XYZ ?" argument.
The answer is because it does what you want it to do, because you like it.
Why do I keep typing pythong?
Thank you, ink
------
C'mon, flame me!
No sig for the moment.
You asked for it:
Word UpBy: Cameo
Ow
Ow
Yo, pretty ladies around the world
Got a weird thing to show you so tell all the boys and girls
Tell your brother, your sister and your mama too
'Cause we're about to go down and you know just what to do
Wave your hands in the air like you don't care
Glide by the people as they start to look and stare
Do your dance, do your dance, do your dance quick, mama
Come on baby, tell me what's the word
Word up (up, up), everybody say
When you hear the call you've got to get it underway
Word up (up, up), it's the code word
No matter where you say it you know that you'll be heard
Now all you sucker DJ's who think you're fly
There's got to be a reason and we know the reason why
You try to put on those airs and act real cool
But you got to realize that you're acting like fools
If there's music we can use it, we're free to dance
We don't have the time for psychological romance
No romance, no romance, no romance for me, mama
Come on baby, tell me what's the word
Word up (up, up), everybody say
When you hear the call you've got to get it
underway, ow
Ow
Dial L for love
Ah... hey hey
Ah hey hey
Now just come on, all you people say
(W-O-R-D up, W-O-R-D up) ah ah ah ah ah
(W-O-R-D up, W-O-R-D up) wooh
(W-O-R-D up) hey hey
(W-O-R-D up) he-hey
Hey hey hey, yeah
Hey hey, no no no no no no no
Yeah, ooh ooh ooh, woh
Tell me like that, like that
Say it like that, now now yeah
That's the word, everybody's got to know the word
Like that, come on
Ow
Take me real low
Bingo Foo
---
taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
Better not let Travolta know.
Bingo Foo
---
taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
Why the heck should I choose KDE? Both Sun and HP have announced the replacement of CDE with Gnome. RedHat (the largest distributor, at least in the US??) favors Gnome as well, though they do ship KDE.
Personally, I don't see Gnome as all that unstable. It's not like it ever crashes (and I usually run semi-bleeding edge). So anti-aliased fonts aside, what's the justification for KDE when it seems like major players in the Unix world are going to Gnome? Has anyone announced a similar migration to KDE that I just missed?
there are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots
I'm an average user, I suppose, but I find myself trying to read things in other languages that use non-roman alphabets. Try reading hebrew, arabic, hindi, chinese, or russian on a computer without international text display. Better yet, try typing them. I, for example, have tried to read Arabic newspapers online(I'm taking the language in college and would like to improve my reading. Many, MANY 'average users' would attempt such a thing), but its damn near impossible(at least, on Win98...bleh) due to my OS's lack of international text display.
KDE requires development to be done in C++...anyone can hack Gnome code in whatever language they want - Perl, Python, C, Java, you name it. I'd be surprised if a Gtk+ Bash binding doesn't come out soon.
Freedom is very important to GNU proponents and most Linux users, and Gnome is definitely a more extensible, free-thinking enviroment. Sure, some aspects of it are not at the level of their KDE counterparts yet, but in the end, Gnome has the right key ideal, freedom....And I'm not talking about GPL vs. Whatever, I realize that KDE is GPL'd and Qt is GPL'd for free apps...I'm talking about the spirit of freedom rather than the strict definition of freedom that using the GPL bestows upon software under its banner.
KDE's draconian development enviroment, user interface and application methodology are breaking the spirit of freedom by forcing users to do things THEIR WAY and THEIR WAY only. Yes it might be more stable, and faster, but it's definitely not as free - and that's as in the spirit of freedom, not true freedom itself. Both are important, though.Cedric Balthazar Rotherwood
Sun Certified Programmer for the Java Platform +
System Admin. for Solaris
Still, KDE is a nice system and may in fact be the desktop of choice to someone who prefers the draconian Windows-like feel, such as an Executive Business User.
Cedric Balthazar Rotherwood
Sun Certified Programmer for the Java Platform +
System Admin. for Solaris
Stroustrup himself has said in his retrospective book "The Design and Evolution of C++" (p. 207), "Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling to get out. Many hackers would now add 'Yes, and it's called Java'
That pretty much sums it up. C++ is an industry standard in much the same way that Windows 9X became the industry standard desktop. In some cases this is good, but in others it's not - one language cannot rule them all, however, one language can bind them - the ultimate glue component language, Python.Cedric Balthazar Rotherwood
Sun Certified Programmer for the Java Platform +
System Admin. for Solaris
Darwin's CoreFoundation also uses COM for 'Plugins'
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>80 column hard wrapped e-mail is not a sign of intelligent
>80 column hard wrapped e-mail is not a sign of intelligent
>life
Just because you load an 'Aqua' theme or whatever doesn't mean all Qt or KDE apps will magically behave like mac apps or follow the "Aqua HI Guidelines".
What we really need is interface abstraction, but the only project close to that is GNUStep.
I mean what's the point of Qt in multiple platforms if applications won't behave like other apps on that platform? Might as well use SDL |-p
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>80 column hard wrapped e-mail is not a sign of intelligent
>80 column hard wrapped e-mail is not a sign of intelligent
>life
Exactly what do you mean by a heart and soul? Isn't comparing QT to KDE kind of like comparing General Motors with Snerple Car Seating Inc.? KDE is UNIX software. Just like Gnome. What are you talking about????????
Most commercial apps are written in C++. For GUI C++ is simply much more natural language than C ...
go ahead..take this seriously.
What ? they didn't include goatse.cx functionality yet ?
They work on a C++ Framework for Gtk. I guess it's called "inti" or something like that. ;)
:)
I'm sure you will be able to do some Gtk C++ coding really soon.
On the other side, how good is C support for Qt?
I could also say "it will be a problem for Qt that there is no good python support".
I don't think, that everybody will be using only C++ in the next years.
---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
I just found out what I'm doing wrong... I shouldn't send this as HTML formatted. Didn't know, that it wouldn't use my linebreaks, sorry. This is quite unreadable. ;)
---
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
"Ein ueberzeugter Mensch ist ein groesserer Feind der Wahrheit als ein Luegner."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
Ceci n'est pas un sig
Databases on Linux? Nah. .0001 % of the linux population so they can run X a little quicker. Good usage of time
Why does QT need to access databases, instead of programs doing it themselves?
Multi-monitor Linux boxes? Nah.
X does multi-monitor. Tell me why QT needs to
64 bit Linux platforms? Nah.
No, you're definitely right on this one. Add support for
Non-english speaking Linux users? Nah.
I can see this more then the others, but I still believe it can be implemented outside of QT.
As always people being comparing KDE and GNOME on appearance. THEY ARE BOTH CUSTOMIZEABLE. Stop whinning, this post was about the new features of QT 3, not about KDE vs GNOME, which is an impossible argument to wage as both have strengths and weeknesses, but please in future please don't claim one is better than the other on the strength of their default look and feel.
Knowledge Speaks, Wisdom Listens -- Jimi Hendrix
"Trolltech Spills Beans On Qt 3.0" :0)
Seriously made me think that this story was about JavaBeans being implemented in QT
Follow me
I like the windows-style widgets. There is something to be said for their simplisticity and ubiquitousness.
When I use GTK based environments with the GTK wigdets skin, I feel like I am using a really badly broken, klunky, and unprofessional copy of a windows95 machine.
GTK windows widgets just plain blow. They don't render correctly. What's more, no effort seems to be going into improving them. They have been locked into the Gnome never never land for two to three years, with no significant improvement.
As to merits of French design and the perils involved there, just look at Mandrake. Mandrake's whole nursery school, light blue theme is pure sh*t. DrakeConf (the X version) is the most pathetically designed application I have seen in years from a major distro.
First of all, Qt is infinitly themable so I dont see why you are talking about Windows. Regarding your comment on GTK being more American,GTK does of have a "Wholesome American" feel to it, much like the Dodge Neon and Windows 95. Qt on the other hand is very highquality much like the BMW and Linux. If you are so shallow that you believe that a GUI must have a weakness to be soulful, you have some serious problems. I just dont see why your comment got a 4.
I like meat helmets.
If Qt3 ships with richtext, a whole slew of stable, fast and good wordprocessor will become available for UNIX. NICE.
I like meat helmets.
- Will make you coffee while you decide whether to go Gnome or KDE
-
Will recheck kernel.org every 0.000231243 ms for another kernel release
- Will offer more LKM security hazards to promote security (secure your shit NOW)
- Automated emailing of new Widgets info sent to cmdrtaco via email for
/. posting
When is someone going to expand on the gold old relaible console, and add tux/daemon cursors! Now thats innovationuse the source!
360 degrees of Karma
maybe thats why it looks a little 80s like?
Theres nothing wrong with looking like windows but we know the interface rendering style can be changed so its not a point worth arguing about.
At least the win32 api is easier to use than the gtk which can be a Shit sometimes to do more complex things that are standard in windows.
Are you like retarted?
QT has to be unicode aware and handle arabic style text that is backwords or be aware of asian glyphs too.
It sounds like your not a programmer and a greedy ignorant user.
Are you so poor you cant afford a 256meg DIMM for $90 from newegg.com?
I wasn't whining in the slightest. I was merely commenting on the fact that KDE/Qt is more stable (it really is), but Gnome has a larger *gee-whiz* factor (to me, it seems "cooler" than KDE).
As a matter of fact, I really think you missed both my and the original poster's points. It's not that we were pining for Windows, it's that we both felt KDE has a certain Window-esque quality about it that can make it feel more cold and impersonal. We felt that Gnome had more originality and uniqueness (and that originality and uniqueness were very good things).
If all you heard was "Whine, Whine, etc., etc." from these posts, then I think perhaps you should go back and re-read them, because you undoubtedly misunderstood.
(And with respect to me "doing" something about the code... well... Qt is not the most open-source project in the world... If you check out Trolltech's Qt Page you'll discover it has proprietary extensions called "Qt Professional/Enterprise" editions which you must license. So, no, I can't really just go in an do something about Qt looking too much like Windows... can I?)
You know, even though I am primarily a KDE user... and have had nothing but trouble with Gnome as a desktop... I really do see your point.
;) everything else out there.
;-).... But I am pining for the day when Gnome matures a bit more (sorry, the most recent Gnome release still seems lagging in stability and extensability :/ ) or when QT manages to keep its stability, while gaining the "gee-whiz" appeal of Gnome.
I mean, sure we get a great deal of stability with KDE, and it does allow for a certain degree of customization... but Gnome is without a doubt very unique and different from (almost
I use KDE because I am practical, and I really do need the stability it provides (I telecommute, and need that sort of junk
COM is not a Microsoft technology.. As usual if it's any good they got it from DEC!
oh, sorry, I just get a little orgasmic when I read a masterful troll.
--
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house"
--
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house"
-George Carlin
You guessed it.
Beans - spilled, that is.
------ 1001001
Nope. Most I can remember is Will The Real Bruce Perens Please Stand Up getting at least 46 mods (that's what it was at when I saved it to disk).
licq has several frontends, including a Gnome and a QT frontend. All the umpteen Gnome libraries, GDK, GTK and Glib loaded by the Gnome frontend take up less memory than just QT alone. Duplication of already existing database and HTTP libraries in QT doesn't help the time and thrashing it already takes to load any QT program.
Duplication of already existing database and HTTP libraries in QT doesn't help the time and thrashing it already takes to load any QT program.
.8 more seconds of start up time for the power of a rich, clean, well-designed, well-documented, object-oriented, portable Qt anyday.)
:P
I think it's nice that if my GUI will work on a machine, then I can also be sure that I can do HTTP or DB or everything else non-GUI related in Qt. It's all on the same library, so instead of requiring 8 different libraries for your app, you require 1.
As for the memory requirements, C++, in my experience, is slower/bigger than C, no doubt there. But that has not stopped pretty much EVERY commercial application (I forgot the actual numbers) from using it, because it just lends itself better to good design principles. (I think you're exaggerating anyway, but I'll trade
Awe damn, now look what I've done. I've responded to a toolkit troll with a language troll! Be gentle on me....
--
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
This way, Trolltech keeps making money off of it, but KDE can be used happily by all.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
"soulless and teutonic" whoo-boy! anywaaaay
Pretend the QT 3.0 was possible fud. (no release date whatsoever given, from a commercial company?) Who would they be fud-ding against? Just curious...
Peace,
Amit
ICQ 77863057
[o]_O
Yes, but I was talking about GTK. The GIMP Toolkit, which I think was started in the US.
Monkey sense
And about that trying to KILL KDE, GNOME would have never existed if KDE didn't make the license mistake, don't take it personal.
I agree, even though one could argue that KDE was started in Germany and GTK in the US. Though people arguing that are very short-sighted IMHO. AFAIK GTK for Windows doesn't integrate well with the rest of the system. That is because it wasn't designed to look like other toolkits. Yes, KDE is far more mature than GNOME but GNOME has much more supporters these days so I don't think that the market share will last. Not that it matters in the end, thanks to X we have a choiceMonkey sense
Now, what does it mean to be soulless AND teutonic? I am just dying to know.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
Damn man, 17 mods? Is that a record?
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
So we have a component library that is wanting to become a complete RAD tool. Well good for QT, interesting thing is, everyone of those features have been in Delphi, and Delphi has been around for 5 years. For Linux, we now have Kylix. Creating your own components, database access, and localization is exactly what made Delphi great. Kylix ueses QT so makes ya wonder if Kylix is the reason why they are doing these features. I say that becuase its one thing to make a component library, its something completly differnt to make a full RAD tool. Why the change for QT? If they do these features, I sure hope they do them right.
Are available on their FTP site. Enjoy!
Many innovations found in GNOME are direct attempts to "ape" Microsoft, from compound documents to an implementation of Visual Basic for GNOME. Not that this is (all) bad; MS came up with some pretty good software design strategies, and GNOME is smart to follow the good ones.
That having been said, I use both KDE (on my home desktop) and GNOME (at work). They're basically the same as far as I can tell, from a UI point of view. There's a couple of minor differences (it's easier to use workspaces in GNOME; it's easier to set fonts in KDE; I like Konsole better; I like GTK's look-and-feel better), but they basically do the same things as each other, and both better than Windows. Which I think is the point.
GNOME is no longer designed specifically for Linux, as GNOME now must be working on Solaris and FreeBSD before it can be released.
Not bloody likely. In fact, one could argue that using a cross-platform environment such as Qt or wxWindows is closer to the hacker ethic of "solve the problem once." In fact, part of Python's success as a GUI building language is wxPython. I've also heard of cases where Qt/Python is used to build GUIs for software that's meant to run on Windows and UNIX, although that involves some expense...Qt is NOT GPL'd for Windows!!
OK, that's my two cents.
ObJectBridge (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.
Finding God in a Dog
I'm guessing you don't program. C++ lends itself to incoherent parameter-passing, inscrutable overloading, downright insane side-effects of innocuous looking declarations and the kind of debugability that one has come to expect of biological systems.
I have a great deal of respect for what C++ tried to do with C, but let's face it: good design principles are not what C++ lends itself to. What C++ has going for it is that it's the first language that a lot of people learned OO concepts in. Certainly, all of those concepts can be applied in other languages (e.g. Gtk+ in C), and OO has been done better elsewhere (e.g. Java, Smalltalk, Python, etc), but that's not why people use C++. They use C++ because they feel they need speed and a language that the average joe will know how to "do OO stuff" in.
I'll trade
Ignore the startup time. How much slower will your desktop be overall? Will people with last month's machine be able to run it cleanly? How embeddable is it?
- rich Every feature that I know of in Qt is supported in other widget sets
- clean Large widget sets are cleanly coded (e.g. Gtk+) or they die (e.g. Motif). It's very hard to maintain a poorly coded widget set.
- well-designed What widget set do you feel is poorly designed and has traded memory requirements for it other than Motif, which is a poorly designed pig, I'll grant.
- well-documented None of the widget sets that I know of trade memory for documentation. I think this one's a bit of a straw-man.
- object-oriented I've never seen a non-OO widget set for X or Widnows. Which ones were you thinking of?
- portable This is the one that gets me. Qt is written in C++, and thus suffers from C++'s portability problems (which is exactly why Sun was unable to choose Qt for Solaris) from the onset. It can never be as portable as something written in C (e.g. Gtk+).
All things considered, I don't think any of your points are sufficient to warrent the extra memory requirements....Awe damn, now look what I've done. I've responded to a toolkit troll with a language troll!
If you intended this as a troll, I guess you succeded, but you certainly did not succeed in laying out a case for Qt or C++. Both are deeply flawed, and those flaws are not sufficiently offset by either's merits.
Yes, we all know that the Linux community is entirely made up of "average" users. Sheesh.
Databases on Linux? Nah.
Multi-monitor Linux boxes? Nah.
64 bit Linux platforms? Nah.
Non-english speaking Linux users? Nah.
Looks like we don't need Qt3, then.
"Good people drink good beer"
From the perspective of a KDE developer (the primary users of QT fwik), I really have to wonder how much of this stuff is desirable:
"Database Programming: Qt 3.0 will include a platform- and database-independent API for accessing SQL databases": KDE already has put significant resources towards a uniform Database model, as has the GNOME project and even specific languages (DBI for perl, f.e.). Why do we need or want, yet another splinter in the market?
"Qt Designer: Qt Designer has now evolved from a dialog editor to a true GUI builder.": Okay, so they seem to have cloned some of the capabilities of KDevelop and others. My question is WHY? So they can sell it to windows users?
"Qt Assistant: Qt 3.0 features a separate application called Qt Assistant, which can be used to browse the Qt Class Documentation, as well as the Qt Designer and the Qt Linguist manuals. Qt Assistant offers index search, contents overview, bookmarks, history and search in pages. ": Again, KDevelop seems to have most if not all of this capability...
"International Text Display": Hrm... pango in a box.
"HTTP network protocol support": Proving the QT is not just a gui toolkit, they implement protocol support. What the heck for? Isn't this better implemented in the 'framework' kind of level as KDE has done? Konq obviously supports this, as does the protocol facilities in general...
"New Component model: Qt 3.0 will provide a platform-independent API for runtime loading of shared libraries and accessing of their functionality using a COM-like interface concept": WHY does QT want to develop their OWN object model? Isn't enough enough? Do they really have value add here? XPCOM is MUCH more portable than they could ever support QT with. Why would they want to add this?
Being a naive user, I have to wonder how much of this is actually useful for free software development. We seem to already have superior solutions for much of what they are providing. Some things (that I have not listed) will definately be nice (64bit portability, better unicode/localization, multiscreening, etc...) and actually seemed to be related to the core of QT: the graphics toolkit.
It seems to me that they are basically trying to reinvent what the freesoftware community has already developed in order to sell it to those less worthy (ie win32/commercial developers). Am I missing something here, or is there a reason a GUI toolkit should have its own incompatible object model?
-Chris
From Linuxprogramming.com's QT 3.0 Preview story:
Wow! Now I can put a Linux GUI in my car!
MacOS, Windows, BeOS, GNOME, KDE: they're all just Xerox copies