There was no "kablooey" in the sense of something exploding into space. There was no space. The universe didn't come from nothing, it came from everything. Then it changed state.
I use it a lot to share design info. But there should a way to work offline while the "cloud" sorts itself out. Of course, synchronizing after is going to be a nightmare. Eh, better just let it be inaccessible for a while.
There isn't one. Physics, chemistry and engineering show that we'll never go there, and they'll never get here. Just getting a signal across the gulf of space is hard enough.
The IC used in the AGC was a NOR RTL gate commercially available at the time.
In the early 1960s there was at least one hobby magazine of the "Mechanics Illustrated" variety that showed how to build your own solid-state radio out of one of these RTL logic gates. This means these gates weren't the exotic parts you think they were.
A RTL gate is basically a pre-biased network of bipolar transistors and can be used in the linear mode... You can still get these today at digikey, look for what they confusingly call a digital transistor.
They picked an IC that was already available in large quantities! They say so themselves! I mean what else can I do to convince you? NASA used EXISTING OFF THE SHELF COMMERCIAL PARTS THAT ALREADY EXISTED. And the IC was *obsolete* by the time Apollo 11 landed on the Moon! Why? Because commercial and industrial markets were already WELL underway on the digital computer path, without NASA, and without space!
Yes, I think a big problem when discussing subjects is defining the terms of the discussion. I believe that computers existed in the 1960s and were used to assist the design process. I also believe NASA didn't invent computers as computers already existed before, and even in the early 1960s there was already a private sector computer industry that had nothing to do with space. NASA did use many computers, yes, a lot of them were commercial machines of the 360 variety.
Good, all I ever said was that is was a certain subset. We agree. As for the mythology, it usually reduces to "NASA invented everything because we went to the Moon". Most people don't think it through that far, but yes, there is a TREMENDOUS amount of mythology around NASA and the Moon landings. Not that they happened, they obviously did, but to put it simply: many people think going to the Moon led to all kinds of technologies.
The way I see it is that all kinds of technologies LET us go to the Moon. Everything was there in embryonic form, whether it was from WWII progress, or just the normal course of human development through curiosity, talent and business needs, BEFORE.
Look at the company called BBN. They pioneered a lot of early computer work, but judging by what people are saying here, they never used computers. Look, someone had to be first, and you can't expect it to be at the same level as now, but if you are using computers to solve equations, even if you are just entering the problem in punch cards and the program runs overnight as a batch process, and you get the result back as a ASCII printout, it's still computer assisted design.
OK, so NASA got to spread tons of money around to other companies to develop technologies. Sure, NASA even invented a few new things here and there. But to think that people before were just stupid and no one was using computers is just foolish. Plenty of computer work was being done in the 1960s without NASA.
Absolutely false, every one of your statements. YOU should go grab a book about the 1960s. Just because clerks and people still had paper bank books doesn't mean computers weren't used to crunch numbers... I had paper bank books in the 1980s, does that mean banks had no computers in the '80s? The first hard drive in the 1950s was called RAMAC. You know why?
Random Access Method of Accounting and Control
IN 1956.
First of all, we need to define what I mean by designing parts on a computer. Were they sitting in front of personal computers with a mouse, color graphics, stereo sound and brazilian tranny porn? No. But are you claiming they never ever used computers to run numerical simulations for critical parts?
You ever hear of Messier Dowty? This is a company in Quebec that built the landing gear for the LEM. Guess what they used to help design them? Early computers and software at the Polytechnique.
If you ask a computer to solve an equation that's needed to help guide the design of a part, what is that but computer aided design? So sorry it was all on punch cards. Still a computer.
"So, everybody that's ever used a calculator to design something qualifies for "computer aided design"?"
When no one else had calculators, yes.
"I don't think adding numbers is the minimum, or even close to the minimum for CAD. "
Then what is? Why were computers developed before they had color displays and stereo sound? Did companies do their payroll on computers for the kicks? For the sound the printer made? What else than to add numbers?
"When you think of CAD, no one thinks of what they used to design the F1 engines. Were computers used? Absolutely. Were computers used in a capacity to qualify this as a computer aided design? Not even close."
Then what else for? Send company wide emails about the company lunch? Early computers did nothing ELSE but numerical stuff.
Yes, it amazes me that the same people who go around spreading all kinds of myths about NASA inventing every technology on Earth are able to turn around on a quark and say we went to the Moon with the barest of technologies.
But adding a few numbers together to help along a design, that never happened? The military was happily using computers to help design parts for the B-58, but NASA was running around with crates of envelopes from Staples?
SPICE was a combination of earlier programs... So, you think they didn't use computers to solve numerical problems in 60s? Problems related to design? Is this what you are claiming?
"For the Apollo space mission, NASA required a portable, self-contained drill capable of extracting core samples from below the lunar surface. Black & Decker was tasked with the job, and developed a computer program to optimize the design of the drill’s motor and ensure minimal power consumption. That computer program led to the development of a cordless miniature vacuum cleaner called the Dustbuster.[14]"
So Black and Decker were able to use computers to design a small permanent magnet motor, but NASA itself was using what for the F-1? Was NASA ordering envelopes by the carton for their back-of-the-envelope calculations?
This also shows that all NASA did was spread money around to let companies create without having to make a profit in the next quarter. We didn't actually have to go to the Moon to make these motors. All the technology was already there before, all you needed was a bit of money to spread around. Nothing like a grandiose government funded stunt to help that along.
They needed them smaller, but banks and businesses needed them cheaper and more reliable. How can NASA be a "driver" for ICs when they were using generic commercial ICs????
The comment you're responding to was about computer design tools--CAD--not about numerically-controlled milling machines."
They designed the parts on computers. They fabricated the parts as part of a computer-driven process. And that comment about the F-1 being hand built... I got news for you kids, how do you think jet turbines are built these days? By hand, one by one.
What does saving files have to do with anything? What do you think Pro/e does internally except process lists of numbers added together? What do you think a CPU does basically? They had 32 bit mainframes in the '60s, you know. They could process lists of numbers and then use them as part of a fabrication process. Would you like me to link you to early videos of automated IC place and routing? And the resulting layout being plotted on a giant plotter before being photoshrunk for the IC fab process? That's the 1960s at *university* level, never mind "money no object government contracts".
Go read some Sideris books. What they were doing the '60s counts as computer aided design. It was all there. Put in the hands of much more competent people than today.
I've only heard that myth a few times myself but when I did I thought I was in a Twilight Zone episode. The usual conclusion to the myth is that since going to the Moon included computers as a spinoff, we should go to the Moon again because who knows what spinoffs will come from it?
History shows it was a mix of mathematics, war and business, industrial and scientific needs that drove computer development. Banks were among the earliest commercial users of computers. Maybe we should open a few more banks and see what kind of computers they order?
Slashdot Mirror
Don't forget the overt homo-eroticism in both.
Yeah, in space.
"Guys, I work with light and solar irradiance/insolation all day long. You won't win this argument."
Go back to school. Charm school too while you're at it.
I can answer that. Never.
Coffiest. Yum!
I already don't have kids. And?
There was no "kablooey" in the sense of something exploding into space. There was no space. The universe didn't come from nothing, it came from everything. Then it changed state.
I use it a lot to share design info. But there should a way to work offline while the "cloud" sorts itself out. Of course, synchronizing after is going to be a nightmare. Eh, better just let it be inaccessible for a while.
LOL, the Moon is our living room. Seriously, think it over.
There isn't one. Physics, chemistry and engineering show that we'll never go there, and they'll never get here. Just getting a signal across the gulf of space is hard enough.
You got me. So who *was* the supplier of NASA's envelopes?
Yes, books written in 2006 and not specifically about computer use in the 1960s are the best you can do? Weak sauce, man.
In the early 1960s there was at least one hobby magazine of the "Mechanics Illustrated" variety that showed how to build your own solid-state radio out of one of these RTL logic gates. This means these gates weren't the exotic parts you think they were.
A RTL gate is basically a pre-biased network of bipolar transistors and can be used in the linear mode... You can still get these today at digikey, look for what they confusingly call a digital transistor.
I mean, you people would argue with NASA itself.
http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/hrst/archive/1716.pdf
They picked an IC that was already available in large quantities! They say so themselves! I mean what else can I do to convince you? NASA used EXISTING OFF THE SHELF COMMERCIAL PARTS THAT ALREADY EXISTED. And the IC was *obsolete* by the time Apollo 11 landed on the Moon! Why? Because commercial and industrial markets were already WELL underway on the digital computer path, without NASA, and without space!
Yes, I think a big problem when discussing subjects is defining the terms of the discussion. I believe that computers existed in the 1960s and were used to assist the design process. I also believe NASA didn't invent computers as computers already existed before, and even in the early 1960s there was already a private sector computer industry that had nothing to do with space. NASA did use many computers, yes, a lot of them were commercial machines of the 360 variety.
The way I see it is that all kinds of technologies LET us go to the Moon. Everything was there in embryonic form, whether it was from WWII progress, or just the normal course of human development through curiosity, talent and business needs, BEFORE.
Look at the company called BBN. They pioneered a lot of early computer work, but judging by what people are saying here, they never used computers. Look, someone had to be first, and you can't expect it to be at the same level as now, but if you are using computers to solve equations, even if you are just entering the problem in punch cards and the program runs overnight as a batch process, and you get the result back as a ASCII printout, it's still computer assisted design.
OK, so NASA got to spread tons of money around to other companies to develop technologies. Sure, NASA even invented a few new things here and there. But to think that people before were just stupid and no one was using computers is just foolish. Plenty of computer work was being done in the 1960s without NASA.
Random Access Method of Accounting and Control
IN 1956.
First of all, we need to define what I mean by designing parts on a computer. Were they sitting in front of personal computers with a mouse, color graphics, stereo sound and brazilian tranny porn? No. But are you claiming they never ever used computers to run numerical simulations for critical parts?
You ever hear of Messier Dowty? This is a company in Quebec that built the landing gear for the LEM. Guess what they used to help design them? Early computers and software at the Polytechnique.
If you ask a computer to solve an equation that's needed to help guide the design of a part, what is that but computer aided design? So sorry it was all on punch cards. Still a computer.
When no one else had calculators, yes.
"I don't think adding numbers is the minimum, or even close to the minimum for CAD. "
Then what is? Why were computers developed before they had color displays and stereo sound? Did companies do their payroll on computers for the kicks? For the sound the printer made? What else than to add numbers?
"When you think of CAD, no one thinks of what they used to design the F1 engines. Were computers used? Absolutely. Were computers used in a capacity to qualify this as a computer aided design? Not even close."
Then what else for? Send company wide emails about the company lunch? Early computers did nothing ELSE but numerical stuff.
Sure, and so did every bank or business buying a computer to do payroll.
Yes, it amazes me that the same people who go around spreading all kinds of myths about NASA inventing every technology on Earth are able to turn around on a quark and say we went to the Moon with the barest of technologies.
So they were able to use computers in the spacecraft to crunch numbers, just not on the Earth?
http://history.nasa.gov/computers/Ch1-2.html
http://history.nasa.gov/computers/contents.html
But adding a few numbers together to help along a design, that never happened? The military was happily using computers to help design parts for the B-58, but NASA was running around with crates of envelopes from Staples?
http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3022545&cid=40863753
SPICE was a combination of earlier programs... So, you think they didn't use computers to solve numerical problems in 60s? Problems related to design? Is this what you are claiming?
"For the Apollo space mission, NASA required a portable, self-contained drill capable of extracting core samples from below the lunar surface. Black & Decker was tasked with the job, and developed a computer program to optimize the design of the drill’s motor and ensure minimal power consumption. That computer program led to the development of a cordless miniature vacuum cleaner called the Dustbuster.[14]"
So Black and Decker were able to use computers to design a small permanent magnet motor, but NASA itself was using what for the F-1? Was NASA ordering envelopes by the carton for their back-of-the-envelope calculations?
This also shows that all NASA did was spread money around to let companies create without having to make a profit in the next quarter. We didn't actually have to go to the Moon to make these motors. All the technology was already there before, all you needed was a bit of money to spread around. Nothing like a grandiose government funded stunt to help that along.
The comment you're responding to was about computer design tools--CAD--not about numerically-controlled milling machines."
They designed the parts on computers. They fabricated the parts as part of a computer-driven process. And that comment about the F-1 being hand built... I got news for you kids, how do you think jet turbines are built these days? By hand, one by one.
Go read some Sideris books. What they were doing the '60s counts as computer aided design. It was all there. Put in the hands of much more competent people than today.
History shows it was a mix of mathematics, war and business, industrial and scientific needs that drove computer development. Banks were among the earliest commercial users of computers. Maybe we should open a few more banks and see what kind of computers they order?