The author of the virus is Benny/29A. This is based on the text within the virus and the virus company report. I did a quick search on google.com and came up with this persons background and an interview.
Interview is at ? http://vx.netlux.org/lib/iv001.html
ONEPOINT
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Off-tipic but might be relivent
on
NSA Inside?
·
· Score: 1
Is there not a branch of the governement that combine loans then resells them. The loads are student loans and home loans, FmHA ( farming loans ), Fannie mae and other simular to this ?
I think that the govenrment might be able to take there own inhouse designed equipment and offer it to the public, they might have to get a royalty or they might offer it via the GPO. which ever way you look at it the government would make money off of it.
ONEPOINT
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working along those lines, you are 100% correct. With so many eyes looking at code ( don't forget the other governments ), the Linux code will be reviewed over and over and... The chance of them slipping by that one "back door" is going to be close to nill.
Just thinking of a secure OS might just break the hold that $MS has. I would think that everyone that has applications working on the internet would recode just to have that selling point. I would love to have my speadsheets up on the net knowing that they are secure and could not be gotten by a cracker. This just might be the lucky break that all programmers have been waiting for. I know the first 3 groups that will impliment it, Banks ( and thier releated parties), brokerage houses, and insurance companies.
Now on the other hand, it is still up to the programmer of the application to make thier code just as tight.
ONEPOINT
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>>I'm not sure where you get off thinking you are smart enough to second-guess a multi-billion dollar corporation with thousands of other employees exactly like you.
Second nature I guess, the value of a firm has nothing to do with the thinking process ( just look at the history of IBM and their think about PC's ). I would have thought that this person had spoken to the "mother" could verify the fact that it was the kids mother.
Now I can see your views very clearly, the risk to the firm is not worth the reward, and that's fine for the shareholders. For me, I would have dropped a dime, out side of the office to the local authorities. Might have saved the kid or atleast the kid would have learded to tell his parents that he was going out.
Sometimes the hard road might be the road that can cost you the most.
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I've got to admit. This brought up a topic my dad and me spoke about when I was a kid. The difference in speaking numbers. I would argue the american system and dad would argue the europe system. I never remmember who won that fight. But know I know " father knows best ".
In regards to large numbers. I can not remember when it became common to use larger units but it had to happen about the 70's. Prior to that, I do not see how your arguement is valid.
The search for precise fractions is where I think your argument might be correct. I can recall reading about thing with a width or half life of of a 1 millionth of an xyz or 1 billionth of an xyz.
Now the question comes does a billionth of xyz =.000000001 or would the british system apply.
I don't know the answer so don't flaim me.
ONEPOINT
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As funny as your statement is, It could hold up in court. I have seen recently the non-compete agreement is also signed with a non-disclosure agreement. So any tech-advancements that you created might also belong to the dead dot com. Giving the dead dot come another avenue of assest to exploit.
ONEPOINT
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The last paragraph is where I think the guy went wrong. What he should have done ( as in the armed forces there can be moral obligation ), is using the other parties profile. Gotten the Phone #. Walked out of the building to a payphone. Made the call to that party and tell him he's documented. Plain and simple. Instead he quits because he did not want to think about it.
Now, AOL could have fired him, in return he could have called a press conference and caused a bigger problem for AOL. Most likely causing AOL stock to suffer and HUGE lawsuits.
The power of the media is very strong and if there is kids around then it's even stronger.
ONEPOINT
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Not knowing certain parts of the first transmission (pgp encoded text)I'll asume the worst.
1) I know your name ( user name )
2) I know where ( ip address and most likely geo. location ) and when you normaly log into (home or office).
3) I know where you surf to
4) I know what you like
What can I do with this information.
Cross link with other databases about you.
How do I make money with this.
on the user:
1) Super targeted net advertising
2) direct mailers
3) promotional give-a-ways ( with the mailers )
For the firm
1) competitive web site info. I've gathered the viewing habits of my users, maybe I can get a simular site working to add to my portal.
2) can offer "super targeted net adverting" for many $
3) can save on bandwidth cost by knowing what might be the best way to certain sites or even cache those sites to my server and host my own advertising.
that is most likely the basics.
please don't kill me about my spelling.
thank you
ONEPOINT
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I recall that all conversation that are electronic ( telephone / fax / email )... are recorded if they involve the president. Some records might be kept secret if they involve national security otherwise it's all avalible. All mail is kept and filed away ( where and how I don't know ).
The president gives up the right to his personal communications in exchange for the power of the presidency. So this way he can not make a private deal without public knowledge.
I do not know if the first family is subject to these terms.
ONEPOINT
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As simple as you make it sound, there is a lot more to it. I happen to be in the camp that agrees with the idea of: copyright holders should paid for their work.
Now with that out of the way. Alot of people don't know how many layers of hands might be in a song. at any given time there might be 5 to 25 layers (percentage takers ) in a song. for example :
singer, producer, engineer, backup vocals, song righter, hook righter, hook musician, album producer, agent, lable, and this list can go on and on. Each one of those parties eat a certain percentage ( or $ depending on the contract ).
Now what is very freightening is that the RIAA wants to back out of their contract. And they might win.
In most record lable contracts, there are different right's. MP3's might not be covered, the only digital media covered right now is the cd and dat ( I think there might be another but I can not recall ). It's new to the industry ( mp3's) so you can imagine what it might look like.
So the record industry knowing that MP3's might not be covered can ( with some good lawyers ) back out of paying MP3 distribution. ( contract does not cover it so it belongs to the holders of the master tape, otherwise you could argue that you hold a cd and the first digital broadcast of the MP3 would belong to you )
ONEPOINT
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Well I recall back in 1984 - 1985 using a laptop (well more like portable pc ) to make orders entries and submit them to a BBS in which someone took my order and sent the product to the customers.
Would this be prior work ? if so I bet I still have the books somewhere.
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your idea is a good one.. shared hosting of resources, but your going to need a central system and that can't be shared to much, that's where is see the expense.
ONEPOINT
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Some of the history of the internet tells us that there was a time when everyone shared their resources. But that is no longer the case. So In reply I submit the following as a rebuttal ( pls ignore the spelling )
> If I buy your house for $250K, and turn around that day and sell it to someone else for $325K, have I stolen anything from you?
Yes you have, You have stolen my time and resources to fight a legal battle with someone else that has a title to the property
>If I fake your IP address and use it to download free mpegs while you are offline, have I stolen anything from you?
Again you have taken my assigned resource, used it for your own pleasure, and have me marked as a user of another persons resource. You now might subject me to spammers, ip blocking ( if the other party did not want those Mpegs downloaded).
>If I shoulder-surf your password to a mailserver, and don't do anything with it, have I stolen anything from you?
You have now become a risk and since you have access to the "mail server", you have access to restricted information that you can sell later on.
Could you imagine that you got the heads of yahoo's e-mail, that information a lone could be worth thousands to the right party.
>If I encode stolen credit card numbers into a bogus napster file, have I stolen anything from any napster users?
Release of stolen credit cards and thier information is a crime. Placing it in the napster file and broadcasting it might be again considered a crime, and a waste of someones resources.
>Are they receiving stolen propery?
yes they are, and if they they know that it is realy a credit card then they are subject to criminal law
> Is property theft?
I don't know what type of theft, so I'll leave it open
> Is intellectual property law insane?
No, If I'm first to market an idea and I get the legal rights to it, It's mine. If I work for XYZ company and I create something while I'm at there firm I might loose my rights to own that.
Documentation is the key to IP rights and doing that research away from the XYZ corp. resources. It does not mater that you have a contract with xyz corp. They can not take something away from you that you do at home. the burden of proof falls on them for the theft.
Also it would help alot if you talk to the VC or the "money guy " of your firm, when you have a new idea. most of the time, they will give you sponsorship if they believe your project could better the firm ( or their walets ).
>Are the answers to any of these questions really as obvious as they appear?
I would think that they are.
ONEPOINT
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>I think you're pretty much dead-on with toning down the html--I've worked on bandwidth challenged sites where that has made a world of difference, especially on frequently hit pages.
Your right, the better your content and the better you edit your code, the less babndwidth you'll use.
>As for DSLing your own personal web server, why not take it a step further--have a bunch of people DSLing your own personal web server
This will last about 1 year before your contract with the service provider changes terms ( I've read before on/. that there are some SP that already limit bandwidth ). Could you imagine the amount of people hosting their own system, just one needs to be popular like/. and boom there goes the free ride.
IMO no mater how much I look at the problem, avalible Bandwidth will have to level off within the next few years. and at that point bandwidth price should increase.
Is the advertising model dead yet... I don't think so. On my web site, I have a bandwidth usage tool that notifies me when i've consumed 75% of my monthly allocation. When I hit that number, I reduce the amount of postings per page. This way atleast I will be able to generate more revenue because a new page will load and an ad will post.
God I wish I could get the High $ that/. gets ( they have to be way above the $ 40.00 per cpm ).
What will most likely happen is that very specialized portal will come around, those site will not have mega hits, but they will have such a nitched market that the advertising on them will be worth a lot $.
Would you not agree that if there was a killer site about servers, the value of an ad on that site would worth $50.00/cpm to a server company than the 5.00/cpm on a general computer site.
ONEPOINT
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Does the ruling cover sorting algorithms (sp?). I would think that the inventor of faster sort deserves some sort of money for all the work he did to create it.
As for your point "This would exclude any other individual or business from "thinking" the same way", it would make me look at the problem and do it differently, maybe even better.
Ranting:
We will are getting into way many problems if this rule keeps going on.
Now if this ruling stays into effect, I have a funny feeling that a trade war will start. What's to stop anybody from stealing the code (software).
ONEPOINT
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Hardly useful? I would think that a public display of something like this get's the "big automakers" pissed of to a new level.
Ford and Diamler-Chrysler have been working on fuel cells for years ( they are sharing information ) and here come's this guy "blowing the whole ball of wax". Could you amagine the buzz this creates... It must drive them insane at the dealers
Customer : I wan't one of those 4.1 sec. 0-60 mph cars
Honda : well... errr.. hmmm I think those are out of stock... why don't you try this electric / gas type.. it does 0 - 60 in..oh... about 7 seconds.. Doesn't stall much...
Customer : WHAT!
ONEPOINT
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Does it seem to me that the big names out there are shrinking... Yahoo and Google dominate ( directory / search engine )
You need massive bandwidth just to get into the game. Google had + 1400 computers last I knew ( somebody said 6000 but I don't have those facts ) Yahoo had + 100 sub portals. The scale is huge.
It looks to me like a shakeout of the auto manufactures during 1930's- 1940's
Could 10 people produce a yahoo or a google. If 10 people had 10 grand each. Then had some good friends with some high hit portals ( 1,000,000 per day in the market you need ) whom would offer adspace for equity then maybe you would have a top 1000 within 6 months otherwise you could not catch up.
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Maritime law is very common sense rules and regulations, Just about anybody with a law degree or a good logical sense could understand it.
the problem mentioned was abour the 6 mile rule and the right of the search.
When a vessel declairs it's flag ( nation of registry ) it also will abide by the governing conventions of that flag. And when a vessel is declaired unflagged or not known by the flag state that they have declaired, it's an open target for ANY government to search and even inpound.
Would you like a leaky oil tanker trading in the USA. Certain flag states have such lax rules that Life and Limb can be at risk for the sailors.
To let trading with lax flag countries continue, USA, Great Britain, Germany... inspect all these vessels as they come into their home waters. If the vessel does not pass inspection, it is held until the repairs are done. This little trick acts like a filter. The toughest laws are from Germany, Canada and the USA. ( Great Britain remade there laws (late 80's) after certain enviromental problems ).
Maritime laws can be traced all the way to the time of GREECE, some laws like General average, are from that time or even older ( it a very basic law that states... if a vessel is saved by throwing overboard someones cargo, everyone else's cargo is subject to put up some money to recoup that persons loss. ) Still used today and a very effective tool in covering/sharing certain risks.
ONEPOINT
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the dog market:
border Collies have the skills for herding, and you have to interact with you border collie all the time to keep his mind up to shape ( this dog is not for everyone ). This would be the perfect toy for them, 10 projectiles shoot out and they form a tiny herd afterward the dog will guild them into the "ranger" for another round of herding.
Put me on the list when it's completed
ONEPONY
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Slashdot Mirror
The author of the virus is Benny/29A. This is based on the text within the virus and the virus company report. I did a quick search on google.com and came up with this persons background and an interview.
Interview is at ? http://vx.netlux.org/lib/iv001.html
ONEPOINT
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Is there not a branch of the governement that combine loans then resells them. The loads are student loans and home loans, FmHA ( farming loans ), Fannie mae and other simular to this ? I think that the govenrment might be able to take there own inhouse designed equipment and offer it to the public, they might have to get a royalty or they might offer it via the GPO. which ever way you look at it the government would make money off of it. ONEPOINT
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working along those lines, you are 100% correct. With so many eyes looking at code ( don't forget the other governments ), the Linux code will be reviewed over and over and ... The chance of them slipping by that one "back door" is going to be close to nill.
Just thinking of a secure OS might just break the hold that $MS has. I would think that everyone that has applications working on the internet would recode just to have that selling point. I would love to have my speadsheets up on the net knowing that they are secure and could not be gotten by a cracker. This just might be the lucky break that all programmers have been waiting for. I know the first 3 groups that will impliment it, Banks ( and thier releated parties), brokerage houses, and insurance companies.
Now on the other hand, it is still up to the programmer of the application to make thier code just as tight.
ONEPOINT
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>>I'm not sure where you get off thinking you are smart enough to second-guess a multi-billion dollar corporation with thousands of other employees exactly like you. Second nature I guess, the value of a firm has nothing to do with the thinking process ( just look at the history of IBM and their think about PC's ). I would have thought that this person had spoken to the "mother" could verify the fact that it was the kids mother. Now I can see your views very clearly, the risk to the firm is not worth the reward, and that's fine for the shareholders. For me, I would have dropped a dime, out side of the office to the local authorities. Might have saved the kid or atleast the kid would have learded to tell his parents that he was going out. Sometimes the hard road might be the road that can cost you the most.
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I've got to admit. This brought up a topic my dad and me spoke about when I was a kid. The difference in speaking numbers. I would argue the american system and dad would argue the europe system. I never remmember who won that fight. But know I know " father knows best ".
.000000001 or would the british system apply.
In regards to large numbers. I can not remember when it became common to use larger units but it had to happen about the 70's. Prior to that, I do not see how your arguement is valid.
The search for precise fractions is where I think your argument might be correct. I can recall reading about thing with a width or half life of of a 1 millionth of an xyz or 1 billionth of an xyz.
Now the question comes does a billionth of xyz =
I don't know the answer so don't flaim me.
ONEPOINT
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As funny as your statement is, It could hold up in court. I have seen recently the non-compete agreement is also signed with a non-disclosure agreement. So any tech-advancements that you created might also belong to the dead dot com. Giving the dead dot come another avenue of assest to exploit.
ONEPOINT
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Did not look at it that way. Very good point.
So I stand corrected.
But somehow I feel that he should have taken some sort of action that would have been positive to both parties.
I hope that this issue does not stick to his mind for the rest of his life.
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The last paragraph is where I think the guy went wrong. What he should have done ( as in the armed forces there can be moral obligation ), is using the other parties profile. Gotten the Phone #. Walked out of the building to a payphone. Made the call to that party and tell him he's documented. Plain and simple. Instead he quits because he did not want to think about it.
Now, AOL could have fired him, in return he could have called a press conference and caused a bigger problem for AOL. Most likely causing AOL stock to suffer and HUGE lawsuits.
The power of the media is very strong and if there is kids around then it's even stronger.
ONEPOINT
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Well, I think I can see part of the issue here.
Not knowing certain parts of the first transmission (pgp encoded text)I'll asume the worst.
1) I know your name ( user name )
2) I know where ( ip address and most likely geo. location ) and when you normaly log into (home or office).
3) I know where you surf to
4) I know what you like
What can I do with this information.
Cross link with other databases about you.
How do I make money with this.
on the user:
1) Super targeted net advertising
2) direct mailers
3) promotional give-a-ways ( with the mailers )
For the firm
1) competitive web site info. I've gathered the viewing habits of my users, maybe I can get a simular site working to add to my portal.
2) can offer "super targeted net adverting" for many $
3) can save on bandwidth cost by knowing what might be the best way to certain sites or even cache those sites to my server and host my own advertising.
that is most likely the basics.
please don't kill me about my spelling.
thank you
ONEPOINT
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I recall that all conversation that are electronic ( telephone / fax / email ) ... are recorded if they involve the president. Some records might be kept secret if they involve national security otherwise it's all avalible. All mail is kept and filed away ( where and how I don't know ).
The president gives up the right to his personal communications in exchange for the power of the presidency. So this way he can not make a private deal without public knowledge.
I do not know if the first family is subject to these terms.
ONEPOINT
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Yes your correct, my bad thinking ... right = write. just sometimes I'm not thinking.
ONEPOINT
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As simple as you make it sound, there is a lot more to it. I happen to be in the camp that agrees with the idea of: copyright holders should paid for their work.
Now with that out of the way. Alot of people don't know how many layers of hands might be in a song. at any given time there might be 5 to 25 layers (percentage takers ) in a song. for example :
singer, producer, engineer, backup vocals, song righter, hook righter, hook musician, album producer, agent, lable, and this list can go on and on. Each one of those parties eat a certain percentage ( or $ depending on the contract ).
Now what is very freightening is that the RIAA wants to back out of their contract. And they might win.
In most record lable contracts, there are different right's. MP3's might not be covered, the only digital media covered right now is the cd and dat ( I think there might be another but I can not recall ). It's new to the industry ( mp3's) so you can imagine what it might look like.
So the record industry knowing that MP3's might not be covered can ( with some good lawyers ) back out of paying MP3 distribution. ( contract does not cover it so it belongs to the holders of the master tape, otherwise you could argue that you hold a cd and the first digital broadcast of the MP3 would belong to you )
ONEPOINT
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Well I recall back in 1984 - 1985 using a laptop (well more like portable pc ) to make orders entries and submit them to a BBS in which someone took my order and sent the product to the customers.
Would this be prior work ? if so I bet I still have the books somewhere.
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He's got 2 good links.
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-- perl -e 'print pack"H*","64706f6d657279406375632e6564750a68747470 3a2f2f7777772e63732e6375632e6564752f7e 64706f6d6572790a"' Good luck, spam bots!
I have been wondering for a month what this command does, If you don't mind could you fill me in ?
ONEPOINT
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your idea is a good one.. shared hosting of resources, but your going to need a central system and that can't be shared to much, that's where is see the expense.
ONEPOINT
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Some of the history of the internet tells us that there was a time when everyone shared their resources. But that is no longer the case. So In reply I submit the following as a rebuttal ( pls ignore the spelling )
> If I buy your house for $250K, and turn around that day and sell it to someone else for $325K, have I stolen anything from you?
Yes you have, You have stolen my time and resources to fight a legal battle with someone else that has a title to the property
>If I fake your IP address and use it to download free mpegs while you are offline, have I stolen anything from you?
Again you have taken my assigned resource, used it for your own pleasure, and have me marked as a user of another persons resource. You now might subject me to spammers, ip blocking ( if the other party did not want those Mpegs downloaded).
>If I shoulder-surf your password to a mailserver, and don't do anything with it, have I stolen anything from you?
You have now become a risk and since you have access to the "mail server", you have access to restricted information that you can sell later on.
Could you imagine that you got the heads of yahoo's e-mail, that information a lone could be worth thousands to the right party.
>If I encode stolen credit card numbers into a bogus napster file, have I stolen anything from any napster users?
Release of stolen credit cards and thier information is a crime. Placing it in the napster file and broadcasting it might be again considered a crime, and a waste of someones resources.
>Are they receiving stolen propery?
yes they are, and if they they know that it is realy a credit card then they are subject to criminal law
> Is property theft?
I don't know what type of theft, so I'll leave it open
> Is intellectual property law insane?
No, If I'm first to market an idea and I get the legal rights to it, It's mine. If I work for XYZ company and I create something while I'm at there firm I might loose my rights to own that.
Documentation is the key to IP rights and doing that research away from the XYZ corp. resources. It does not mater that you have a contract with xyz corp. They can not take something away from you that you do at home. the burden of proof falls on them for the theft.
Also it would help alot if you talk to the VC or the "money guy " of your firm, when you have a new idea. most of the time, they will give you sponsorship if they believe your project could better the firm ( or their walets ).
>Are the answers to any of these questions really as obvious as they appear?
I would think that they are.
ONEPOINT
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>I think you're pretty much dead-on with toning down the html--I've worked on bandwidth challenged sites where that has made a world of difference, especially on frequently hit pages.
/. that there are some SP that already limit bandwidth ). Could you imagine the amount of people hosting their own system, just one needs to be popular like /. and boom there goes the free ride.
/. gets ( they have to be way above the $ 40.00 per cpm ).
Your right, the better your content and the better you edit your code, the less babndwidth you'll use.
>As for DSLing your own personal web server, why not take it a step further--have a bunch of people DSLing your own personal web server
This will last about 1 year before your contract with the service provider changes terms ( I've read before on
IMO no mater how much I look at the problem, avalible Bandwidth will have to level off within the next few years. and at that point bandwidth price should increase.
Is the advertising model dead yet... I don't think so. On my web site, I have a bandwidth usage tool that notifies me when i've consumed 75% of my monthly allocation. When I hit that number, I reduce the amount of postings per page. This way atleast I will be able to generate more revenue because a new page will load and an ad will post.
God I wish I could get the High $ that
What will most likely happen is that very specialized portal will come around, those site will not have mega hits, but they will have such a nitched market that the advertising on them will be worth a lot $.
Would you not agree that if there was a killer site about servers, the value of an ad on that site would worth $50.00/cpm to a server company than the 5.00/cpm on a general computer site.
ONEPOINT
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And as you say, the job market has to many programmers and the job market is level. So you can now hire at a cheaper level.
... pay him well ... that's a rare find
But when a skilled system admin comes around
ONEPOINT
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Does the ruling cover sorting algorithms (sp?). I would think that the inventor of faster sort deserves some sort of money for all the work he did to create it.
As for your point "This would exclude any other individual or business from "thinking" the same way", it would make me look at the problem and do it differently, maybe even better.
Ranting:
We will are getting into way many problems if this rule keeps going on.
Now if this ruling stays into effect, I have a funny feeling that a trade war will start. What's to stop anybody from stealing the code (software).
ONEPOINT
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Hardly useful? I would think that a public display of something like this get's the "big automakers" pissed of to a new level.
... It must drive them insane at the dealers
... why don't you try this electric / gas type .. it does 0 - 60 in ..oh ... about 7 seconds .. Doesn't stall much ...
Ford and Diamler-Chrysler have been working on fuel cells for years ( they are sharing information ) and here come's this guy "blowing the whole ball of wax". Could you amagine the buzz this creates
Customer : I wan't one of those 4.1 sec. 0-60 mph cars
Honda : well... errr.. hmmm I think those are out of stock
Customer : WHAT!
ONEPOINT
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Does it seem to me that the big names out there are shrinking... Yahoo and Google dominate ( directory / search engine )
You need massive bandwidth just to get into the game. Google had + 1400 computers last I knew ( somebody said 6000 but I don't have those facts ) Yahoo had + 100 sub portals. The scale is huge.
It looks to me like a shakeout of the auto manufactures during 1930's- 1940's
Could 10 people produce a yahoo or a google. If 10 people had 10 grand each. Then had some good friends with some high hit portals ( 1,000,000 per day in the market you need ) whom would offer adspace for equity then maybe you would have a top 1000 within 6 months otherwise you could not catch up.
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Maritime law is very common sense rules and regulations, Just about anybody with a law degree or a good logical sense could understand it.
... inspect all these vessels as they come into their home waters. If the vessel does not pass inspection, it is held until the repairs are done. This little trick acts like a filter. The toughest laws are from Germany, Canada and the USA. ( Great Britain remade there laws (late 80's) after certain enviromental problems ).
the problem mentioned was abour the 6 mile rule and the right of the search.
When a vessel declairs it's flag ( nation of registry ) it also will abide by the governing conventions of that flag. And when a vessel is declaired unflagged or not known by the flag state that they have declaired, it's an open target for ANY government to search and even inpound.
Would you like a leaky oil tanker trading in the USA. Certain flag states have such lax rules that Life and Limb can be at risk for the sailors.
To let trading with lax flag countries continue, USA, Great Britain, Germany
Maritime laws can be traced all the way to the time of GREECE, some laws like General average, are from that time or even older ( it a very basic law that states... if a vessel is saved by throwing overboard someones cargo, everyone else's cargo is subject to put up some money to recoup that persons loss. ) Still used today and a very effective tool in covering/sharing certain risks.
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Sorry about that, I was looking for animation
my-bad
Onepoint
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the dog market:
border Collies have the skills for herding, and you have to interact with you border collie all the time to keep his mind up to shape ( this dog is not for everyone ). This would be the perfect toy for them, 10 projectiles shoot out and they form a tiny herd afterward the dog will guild them into the "ranger" for another round of herding.
Put me on the list when it's completed
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