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NCR Claims Palm Infringes As "Personal Terminal"
Davis King writes: "NCR is claiming that two patents it received in 1987, for a 'portable personal terminal for use in a system for handling transactions' cover the palm pilot; it's suing Palm and Handspring for patent infringement. Yet another company trying to get ahead with lawyers instead of with engineers." According to the article, "NCR asked for a jury trial on its demands that Palm and Handspring be blocked from making any more of the products, and that NCR be awarded compensatory and actual damages." What about my patent for a "medium-sized length of rope for use in jumping"?
They aren't going after them because their patent covers the device, not the software that runs on it. Take a Reading for Comprehension course or something.
MICROSOFT MAKE THE OPERATING SYSTEM, NOT THE DEVICE
which makes it difficult for NCR to sue them, considering their patent covers only the device. I realize that the karma whore recipe of the day generally requires some type of MS bashing but it really isn't appropriate here.
Also, I am tired of correcting you morons.
Damn! I'll have to cancel the order for that new ATM machine I was gunna put in my bedroom.
The aim of the patent law is to protect the investments a company makes in R&D into new products. This should give the companies the incentive to make new stuff, that will benefit the society as a whole. BUT, the law falls short. I think two things should be added to the patent law. First of all the patent law should work more like the trademark law, meaning that it should demand that the company actively defends it's patent, and dont wait x years before suing. If it doesn't the patent should be cancelled just like it happens with trademarks. Second, it should demand that the company actively uses the patent in a meaningfull way (that would mean producing something, doing further research or stuff like that with whatever is patented). This would mean that a patent is cancelled if the company just file the patent and never uses it. It would then work moe like an option to utilize a patent within a given period. If the company cant find anything to do with the patent, then other companies should be given the chance to make something meaningfull with it.
Dude, doesn't anyone here follow Palm. The most noise Palm has been making lately has been about using Palm devices to make financial ***transactions***. Remember that news release about the coloboration between Palm and VISA/Mastercard? Who do you think currently makes most of these point of sale terminals. Hmmm... can you spell NCR. Who do you think currently makes the portable devices that work with a lot of these terminals. Hmmm... can you spell NCR. This is a very valid patent. My belief is that NCR wanted too much, either in terms of control or money, from Palm. Therefore the resulting lawsuit. While I don't expect NCR to lose this case, I fully expect the outcome to be NCR becoming an *investor* in Palm.
So I guess they'll be going after Microshaft next huh? Could be the first time it's worth having them throw their weight around.
I swear. People are stupid.
Oh wait... I forgot, they don't make anything anymore...
MY BAD!
--
"Don't trolls get tired?"
- A.P.
--
* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
If only it had a power function...
I've noticed that. I've had to buy 3 in the last 8 years. (Every time the darn plastic hinge cracked and there was no way to reattach the wrist band.) The first two were identical, and the 3rd added a prominent "Light" button and a metal wrist band (but still a cheap plastic housing that will probably crack in another year.)
Yep, and you know they're hoping to get OJ's jury.
Geoff
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Pablo Picasso
Stop the insanity!
I think the plummeting economy has got people all riled up with nothing better to do than to come up with, and sue over - stupid shit like this.
not to mention the fact that these would only seem to apply to a palm with specific software to handle transactions . . .
ANd even if that were so, tricorders are real
while I'm at it, this patent is running out of time, anyway . . .
I thought the reality of tricorders was common knowledge . . . why else whould Spock use them so openly?
I wish I'd kept the link for the ping-pong balls . . .
Federal rules require a jury to be demanded at every stage, or it is waived. This doesn't mean that they want a jury, just that they aren't ready to be precluded from the possibility.
hawk, esq.
As amusing as this is, I have to ask: If you're "not making this up", you must have a reference you can site for this "definition", right?
Feel free to break /. tradition and back up your statement by siting your source. I won't tell on you.
--
If your map and the terrain differ,
trust the terrain.
Yeah, it is. I suck. What can I say.
--
If your map and the terrain differ,
trust the terrain.
uh, no.
The founders of Palm did leave to start Handspring, though. That might be what you're thinking of.
--
If your map and the terrain differ,
trust the terrain.
They do make devices as well. Heard of the Palm Vx, Palm IIIxe, Palm M100, or Palm VIIx? In fact they also OEM devices for IBM. No really. They do. Honest. I have one right here.
They also made the OS, and license it to Sony, Handspring, Symbol, TRG, etc.
--
If your map and the terrain differ,
trust the terrain.
If they were seriously after patent infringers, what about Microsoft and their gang of WinCE/PocketPC manufacturers?
Sounds like a moribund company trying to steal some free PR and possibly some settlement money, while staying away from antagonizing fish that are big enough to bite back...
Actually, i believe it was the more apt: "Welcome to the desert of the Real."
:: "I am non-refutable." --Enik the Altrusian ::
> What about Psion who made the Psion Organizer as early as 1986
1984. But did anyone ever run financial transaction software on one?
--
rant
These patents mention a lot of stuff about a 'valid user'. I'm not a Palm owner (I'll take the pen and paper method anyday), I've never seen a Palm try to validate the user... You just switch it on. This alone would invalidate a large number of the claims.
Regards,
-Jeremy
Palms do have the ability to require a password from the user. My guess is this would suffice.
Just junk food for thought...
it took quite a bit of time for NCR to realize this.. Trying to pull a fast one here.
I don't really know, but it seems to me that if they really were worried about infrigement they should have filed this a while back. What do I know though?
Umm. What transactions are being handled with the Palm or Handspring?
They wanted to wait until the patent was almost expired to allow the companies to grow as large as possible. Kinda like fattening up the pig, before you kill it.
..that?"
I wonder how these decisions get made...
Meeting Starts.
"Who brought the pot?"
"Here."
Multiple joint lit...
"Wheee, this is GOOD stuff."
"OK, onto business... Our revenues are down. We need a new income stream..."
"Dude, what's...
"Oh, i'm just playing Solitare on my Palm."
"They made millions with those little computers, man."
"Yeah, it would be cool if we made then."
"Maybe we did, man.... Maybe we did. Hey look, I can see through my hand, man. Way cool."
Yo! And sue those scumbags Osborne and KayPro who each put out a ``portable personal terminal for use in a system for handling transactions'' in 1980! I know they did it because I personally wrote an MBASIC data-acquisition program that ran on these impertinant clones of fabulous ideas! And those Husky Hunters! ``Portable personal terminals'' that you could park a car on without damage... oh, the cheek of it!
And, oh, uhhh... you say that the patent was granted in 1987... Ooh, um, err...
I think I'd better hurry off and write an xterm that has a beep in the prompt to tell you it's ready for input, before NCR patent the idea. Anyone remember those? Nothing like a roomfull of students using an NCR machine that's so slow it has to wake you up when it wants input...
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Right. And does that mean I can start sending invoices to the men who ended up marrying my ex-girlfriends? After all, without my spectacular crash-and-burns, how would they have known what to avoid? Think of it as an inverse patent -- I come up with a way to do something badly, and then go around suing people who figured out how to do it right. That would be like Edison getting sued by the developers of gaslights.
(I am, of course, making an exception for the poor schmuck who ended up with Angela. But he paid dearly enough for emulating my bad business model.)
--
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
The one missing company in all of this is Sony. Did NCR not name them because they're so big, or because Sony licensed those patents ?
I don't think NCR will sue Microsoft. After all, Microsoft has several cross-licensing deals with NCR, and that may include Personal Digital Assistants (PDA's). That's how come MS could develop Windows CE for PDA's without being sued by NCR.
Also, NCR will not sue Apple, either. Given Apple's views in regards to patent and copyright laws, I'm sure Apple may be gotten a license on the NCR patent before developing the Newton PDA in the early 1990's.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
This patent shit is patently foolish. Of course to a lawyer, the definition of better is as good as (I'm not making this up folks!) so you have no idea what barbarisms they've committed and will continue to commit in the pursuit of legal fees.
We're talking intellectually, morally and ethically bankrupt individuals with no justification for their continued consumption of oxygen.
This suit against Palm & HandSpring is about as stupid as I can imagine but since they patent software and business methods in this country (but blessedly nowhere else on this planet,) the lawyers crawl out from behind the fridges in poor neighbourhoods and will scurry and flourish until somebody turns on the kitchen light and spray's 'em with RAID!
I think we going to have to kill a few of these civil law suits to straighten out the asses of the survivors.
And while you're up, ask Dubya if you'll have to sell (no rent) your daughter's ass to pay for your late father's credit card debts.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
You'll find it. (My old man was a marketing manager for a drug firm which is how I found out.)
Remember that there weren't any direct comparison ads on TV when you were a kid. Then that all changed when some lawyer mangled the english lanuage to come up with this piece of logic.
Now you know how come company A can't sue the ass off of company B when they company says their can of crap is better than A's can of crap.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Lets see how much damage they can do to their rep with this piece of immoral and ultimately hopeless litigation. I'd like to just have *5 minutes* with the pointy haired bosses that came up with this business strategy.
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
I don't know how relevant this is, but NCR seems to have been a little late getting into the game. As if this idea is non-obvious anyway.
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Gee, strangely enough, Apple didn't feel the need to sue Palm over it. And I think they're hurting for cash a little more than NCR is.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
Just for the record, NCR isn't National Cash Register anymore. It stopped being that when AT&T bought the company and turned National Cash Register into AT&T GIS. When AT&T let NCR be it's own company again in 1997 it became NCR again, but no where is it called National Cash Register.
I think it would be fun if they changed it to NCR Causes Recursion.
Oh, and for an old-school company that can't keep up, NCR sure employs a lot of people here in Dayton Ohio, my hometown.
NCR would have a seemingly much stronger claim against the people who make software for the Palm that can be used for financial transactions and/or inventory control. My Palm doesn't have a PIN, or a financial account access application.
Although it's not related to that specific example, Heinlein did come up with the idea of a waterbed in fiction ten years before someone actually invented one and tried to patent it. Because Heinlein had already come up with the idea and placed it in the public domain by writing it into a story, the inventor was unable to get a patent. For the specifics, go to the Heinlein FAQ and text-search on "waterbed".
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Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
I suspect the people you're talking about would be Symbol Technologies, who have for years made portable bar-code readers for use in retail and other outlets. For instance, the Toys'R'Us where I used to work and the K-mart where I work now both use gun-shaped bar-code reader/data terminals with UPC readers and keypads. At one point, I even watched a manager process a K-Mart credit card application through one, on the spot!
The really interesting thing is that Symbol makes a line of bar-code-reading devices that are essentially Palm IIIs (or VIIs?) with bar-code scanners attached. It's interesting that they apparently aren't named in the suit--could it be that they do license the NCR patent technology?
--
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
Sir,
This post is to inform you that you are in direct violation of my patent on posts that mention posts that attempt to pre-empt other lame attempts at humorous posts regarding patents.
-freq
"Tension is the great integrity" -- R. Buckminster Fuller
The classic case of this is the waterbed. Someone tried to patent it in the 1960's. However, Robert Heinlein described a waterbed in "Stranger in a Strange Land", which placed it in the public domain. The patent was tossed.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Late 80s?
Pentops were allready on the market in the mid 80s.
Originally used by larg busnesses they were around for a number of years before they entered the mass market.
Late 80s early 90s... sounds like NCRs entry into the market is a late entry repeating the mistakes allready made many times over.
As inovative as any copycat....
I don't actually exist.
I doput any of them even knew such patents existed.
At one time everyone and his brother was making a pentop. Nobody got sued.
I don't actually exist.
The actual claims in the patent don't mention "Credit card sized". Actually they don't mention any dimentions at all.
Laptop computers
Apple Newtons
Sharp Wizards
Sharp Zauruses (Zauri?)
PCS Cellphones
Commodore SX-64 (the lugable one)
Original Compaq 'portable' computers
Franklin electronic organizers
etc...
All of these fit into NCRs incredibly vague definition.
Listed on delphion here. It talks about a "Credit-Card sized" terminal. Well my visor is certainly bigger than a credit card. Also, I guess they are only enforcing it now because only recently pamltops have been able to connect to the internet because the patent also talks about that the terminal must be connected online.
Sig Under Construction. Please Come Back Later.
But then, Palm could just use the Chewbacca Defense. What a great idea!
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Unisys has a patent on LZW, the compression scheme used in GIF. Compuserve didn't know (or care) that LZW was patented when they created the GIF format. Unisys found out about this (or waited until, you choose) GIF was well established before they started collecting licensing fees for LZW use. Now, if you want to read or write GIFs, you have to pay Unisys (not Compuserve).
Compuserve just didn't research well enough.
-c
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof which this margin is too small to contain.
The second is patent number 4,689,478 August 25, 1987. It mentions the other patent but I can't wade through the pronouns...I think this is an interface module which would be used for transactions, whether standalone or mounted on an ATM. There's a lot of references to interfaces, a modem and a light shield to control the link to the pocket device described by the first patent.
The first one appears not to apply. The general claims are very broad, and would cover pretty much every portable device, as has been said elsewhere in this topic. The description, however, clearly describes a credit-card-sized device that plugs into the handheld for the purposes of user authentication, i.e. the handheld is not carried around with you like a palmtop, it is more like the PINpads at a checkout, only IR-connected rather than whatever goofy serial port they're using this week.
--
--
E_NOSIG
You don't have to sell something to infringe on a patent.
-- Virtual Windows Project
You were not talking about Despair.Inc., were you?
Well they were most likely running a patent review
and came across this one and said look my Palm III
does this. Let's get them.
It is said that a child learns wisdom from the parent,
but the truly wise parent learns joy from the child
The article mentions that they aren't going after WindowsCE machines. I suspect that it is because they don't think they can handle Microsoft without a precedent under their belt. However, they will most likely lose this case, so why don't they waste Microsoft's money instead of Palm's.
I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person that I'm preaching to.
It's not their fault so many are stupid and humorless enough to believe it...
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
The problem is the "Pay your money up front" part.
Big looser corporations have cash and spare employees to file speculative patents all day until a tired, underpaid patent clerk lets one slip through.
--
Will Dyson
Will Dyson
"We can't stop here
>> The Casio Databank Watch is the greatest watch on earth I agree. No real geek should be walking around without one of these bad boys on their wrist. Just today, I amazed somebody by pulling a number out of my Data Bank. It's about time for them to get an upgrade, though. They don't seem to have changed much in the past half-decade.
My interpretation....
I would guess what has changed is that Palm
have been demonstrating using the device to
beam payments via infra-red. This has been a high profile PR exercise by Palm and Visa to work
with Point of Sale terminals.
NCR (national cash registers) are all about POS
they already thought of this 'idea' but obviously
didn't succeed back then.
Just enough to hang yourself with you mean? ;)
-Omar
...I have a patent on 'claiming stupid patents on widespread, every day things as a way to point out the shortcomings in logic in the lawsuit to which the article refers.' So if you try to jest by claiming you've patented air, cuttlery or reproduction, I'll see you in court!
How 'bout an Abacus?
AdFuel
All the barcode 'readers' which are small transaction terminals that 'sync' to their host.
There are probably more of these in existence than Palm Pilots and WinCE devices combined.
It has a built-in terminal program, so it sounds like it could meet the terms of the patent, assuming you were telnetting into some database server somewhere.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Does anyone have the actual links to the patents? I forget where to find those things.
If its as vague as the news implies, and assuming terminal means 'electronic', then any laptop with some financial software falls into this category.
AFAIK the glorious Apple IIc predated 1987 by a good number of years.
------ Warning! You are too close!
Don't forget Atari.
"You are only young once, but you can be immature forever." -www.animemusicvideos.org
Look here or here and here or here
Cell phones don't have "touch panels". Nor do they have "light-operated" I/O. In fact, most (all?) cell phones don't have any I/O at all. I've never seen a cell phone I could plug into my computer and, for example, edit the phone number memory.
(The only connection available is to use the phone as a modem or interface a modem to it.)
As for the "containing a MODEM" part... I would have to say it doesn't contain a modem; it is a modem. But then, those digital phones that "act as a modem" aren't technically modems... the signal remains digital. (Well, as digital as everything else the phone does.)
They are laptops. They aren't "of a size enabling it to fit into a hand of said user".
Additionaly, they generally fail the "touch screen" aspect of the patent.
To Quote 4,689,478...
said sensor and transmitting areas being light-operated;
My Palm Pilot doesn't have any "light-operated" I/O. Modern unit do -- hell, they (can) have CDPD for that matter.
Ok, so when were the first HP calculators (with IR ports) available?
Apple?
Casio?
Franklin?
NEC?
IBM?
Sony?
HP?
TRG?
Phillips?
Compaq?
whoever it is who is making the YOPY?
The difference between Theory and Practice is greater in Practice than in Theory.
At least it beats running the suckers on SNA over Multi-Drop Private Line, and the less that can be said about running UUCP over SNA over Multi-Drop to implement service monitoring, the better
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Would a "working prototype" for a business model require that you run the system in a manner that *actually* *makes* *profits* before you could get a patent? That'd cut out most business model patents from the dot-com years....
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I have an old IBM Convertible (circa 86?)...
that's a portable terminal. I'm typing this on
a Dell laptop... are they next!?!
So we're going to have the UNISYS/GIF patent issue all over again? Look how popular UNISYS was for doing that. I would think that NCR has better things to do than go after people on a patent infringement lawsuit that has no merit.
Oh, wait.. I remember their last attempt at making computers... maybe they don't...!
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
Well, you can set it to ask for a password before letting you use it.
- Apple Computer......proudly going out of business for over twenty years.
Don't forget that NCR invented the idea of a palmtop "pen" computer in the late eighties and early ninties.
NCR, and later Apple, threw a lot of money at pen computing before Palm got it right. Did Palm learn from NCR's mistakes, or would they have gotten everything right on the first try?
I'd better make sure to hide my Casio Databank Watch, it stores all kinds of information, names, phone numbers, it's even got a calculator.
They can take away my life, but can't take away my Casio!
Hello in there? Get at least 1 clue about what a patent is. If you haven't read the patent, how would you know what it covers? You obviously haven't...
What claim does etcha sketch infringe? An etcha-sketch doesn't have a touchscreen!
How would that fall under one of the patents? It's not even electronic...
Why would transactions matter? Doesn't it violate claim 1 of the "Portable Personal Devices [...]" patent without transactions ever being involved?
What are you, dense? They're suing Palm for SELLING the products! UPS and FedEx don't sell those hand-held signature thingies, they just USE them. Jesus Christ.
Sorry if I'm a bit upset but that was one of the dumbest posts I'd read in a long time.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
So what is all this button talk in the patent? Sounds like a different device from a Palm.
They also need to sue every single maker of laptop computers, as well. Oh, and PCs, too... I've packed up my PC and hauled it over to a friend's place... I guess that makes it 'portable', right?
March on DC!
When was the last public geek political rally anyhow?
We can use the fresh air.
I should grab a patent on BB-sized "transaction devices" before some other patent squatter does.
BTW, is Dick Tracy "prior art" here?
Table-ized A.I.
It's called Science Fiction, but they don't get any monopolies on ideas and implementations. Or do you mean the ramblings on the patents of these credit-card sized wireless devices? I'd say society would be benefited more if they just kept it proprietary. It's better to reverse-engineer it or simply come up with something yourself, than reading that garbage.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
All your pants are belong to us!!
;-)
(Sorry, I quite agree
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
To be fair, recording inventory is not a transaction.
-no broken link
I seem to have missed the 'flamebait' nature of this comment. Perhaps the moderators of this post have never dealt with patent disputes directly. The opinions expressed above are valid ones, and in many cases, not far from the truth.
-Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
Sure they do. Quoting from the first patent (4,634,845):
17. The device as claimed in claim 16 in which said device is of a size substantially equal to that of a credit card,
You need to be careful in reading patents; they're structured documents and you need to worry about dependencies. If you follow the links, claim 17 is ultimately dependent on claim 1, which does NOT require a size.
Claim 17 was included by their suits in case the examiner didn't allow claim 1. They'd in essence get claim 1, but with an added requirement of small size. Since they did allow claim 1, no size requirement.
I read the second patent similarly. Although claim 11 requires a size, the preceding claims don't. As long as those claims stand, they don't have a specific size requirement.
Give us the money or we shut down your company, is going to have far more of an impact on the executives of Palm than it is on Mr. Gates. As such, it's more likely that Palm is going to go for a settlement.
--
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Add to that those people who walk around grocery stores with their portable price/inventory recording devices.
To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
Sure they do. Quoting from the first patent (4,634,845):
Quoting from the second patent (4,689,478 ):
I think that the entire case will come down to this statement (of course... I am a master of the obvious). But I think it will be shot down very simply because it is way too vague. If you look at this, they have patented not only PDA's, but also laptop computers (they are portable as well) and pretty much any device that is capable of handling a transaction and isn't tied down physically for some reason or another. (for that matter, a normal old PC could be considered that as you can technically port it around)
On a further note, if NCR wins this little legal battle, they will be in a good strategic position to start collecting on any use of wireless technology. Well, not all wireless technology, but pretty much everything that deals with small, portable devices that connect to a central system.
You know, look at is this way. NCR can gain nothing from this patent anymore, and they may have some spare cash sitting around. What do they have to lose by starting this lawsuit? Nothing really besides lawyers fees and bad PR.... and what do they have to gain? Well, they have the possibility of gaining a prior patent on one of the fastest growing sectors in technology. This could be viewed almost completely as a strategic move on their part... really crappy and pathetic, but strategic...
13 years from the moment of the patent to the lawsuit -
Yeah, this was a major priority for them.
A pointy haired boss came up with this one. This is so Dilbert, it's pathetic. - A whole new way to make money off the internet...Just sue your way into the industry.
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ah honey, we're all resplendent - Bill Mallonee
Those grocery store devices have been around for a long time. I used one for inventory ordering in 1979...even transmitted the grocery order over the phone to the supplier.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
I have a visor, and I have never performed a 'transaction'. I have never connected it to a communication device Other then the base to perform a backup/restore Or use the IR port to beam software. It seems this would only apply to the products that use commuincation devices such as cellphones or wireless, but even then you should have to show that a transaction occurs. Server push isnt a transaction.. several other things are not transactions. Even if they could prove they are infringing its not as wide spread as NCR would like, I also have a feeling prior art may be possible.
Prior Art: good point, how about an early Compaq luggable (~30 lbs.), running visicalc?
They make 'transactions' when he trades Pokemon across the link cable with his friends!
I wonder if this also covers my cell phone/pager combo.
WORST PATENT INFRINGEMENT LAWSUIT EVER!
The problem is the difference between new products (real or vaporous, in NCR's case) and intended uses are so vague now... they cross paths so often. I use my cell phone to store addresses and my Palm to page people. Go figure. So NCR is using this to go after the biggest fish it can attach to. *Throws up in disgust*
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
I meant for you to laugh at my really bad pokemon reference. I didn't even bother looking at the patent because I'd rather jump off a bridge then be exposed to the bullshit.
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
What about Inspector Gadget (the cartoons from the early 80's, not the MB movie)? Doesn't Penny's little computer/e-book device count as prior art? It functioned something like a PDA. I don't think you need an actual device for prior art, just the description of a device, so that should count.
The article is light on details, but wouldn't cell phones be covered by this patent as well?
As if it isn't obvious enough already that this is another lawyers-as-money-trees scheme, NCR wants a jury trial. Everyone knows, if you want a huge settlement and an easier case, you ask for a jury. It should be patently obvious (pardon me) that the jury will be wholly and permanently unqualified to render judgement on this one. (NCR isn't going to sit around and let any qualified people sit, are they?)
I'm quite sure that NCR's blood-sucking lawyers made sure that they stayed two-steps removed from the legal definition of blackmail, but the fact that they're asking for a jury trial and to have Palm and Handspring essentially blocked from doing anything to generate revenue is as plain as a "voluntary" confession at gunpoint.
(What makes me sick is that there's no legal way for us to get rid of the lawyers, and that will never change, since the lawyers make the laws.)
(sorry, for those who dont know, the hitchhikers guide featured a pocket pc type thing which i dont seem to be able to find a picture of anywhere on the net, but you get the idea - a book containing lots of info)
Im thinking of getting a psion revo plus, if i can convince myself that i need one, or that its a justified luxury! but thats got infra red, plays games (speccy emulator, c64 emulator, Emame, plus a bunch of games for Epoc (its os) etc.
That was written in 1977-78!!! Eat that!
portable personal terminal for use in a system for handling transactions
It's called a checkbook
Ask BountyQuest to send me $10K
--
Je t'aime Stéphanie
Who could forget the Rex? You know, that crappy little credit card sized thingy that no one (I know of) ever bought?
Not to mention my length patent
Portable document creator..hmmmmm A pad of paper and a pencil. As Billy Shakespeare said, "first, kill all the lawyers."
Translation: an LCD display. Made of pixels.
Translation: a keyboard Where do these people learn to write this way?
SuperDuG
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
It's just stupid to allow a patent on a concept like "small portable computing and note-taking device" - sh_t, I could write that and I'm not an engineer... Now if Palm and Visor stole their specific designs, they'd have a case, regardless of their reasons for bringing it up at this time.
Freedom: "I won't!"
The patents are actually pretty specific about what they cover, and they cover Palm and Handspring devices pretty well.
Read them here and here.
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...or am I missing something?
No. Etcha sketch came first! They should sue NCR.
samsung for the Yoppy (since last news)
I kind of agree that the case will boil down to this statement, but not because it's too vague. Since patents are granted only for specific solutions to specific problems (at least in theory), it's likely that the courts will find that PDAs are not covered by this patent. The patents clearly identify handling financial transactions as what the cliamed device does. PDAs are not devices for handling financial transactions, but rather, general purpose computers, so the the patent should not apply.
For example, if you had a patent on a hammer (a deviced for banging in nails), and I produce general purpose borg cubes of cast iron which may be used for many things, including banging in nails, I have not violated your patent. But then again, I'm no lawyer.
According to this site, the HP 48SX was introduced in 1990.
Somebody please, tell this machine I'm not a machine.
Damn! There's patent on buttons laid out in a matrix?
Well, I guess it's back to the old drawing board for me then.
KFG
Any other remotely related patent will be considered prior art just because of the vast amount of money involved. These things aren't all technical, people--especially in a juried trial. Even that solution doesn't make any sense--NCR is obviously after some royalties, right? Shouldn't they be suing HP, Compaq, etc., too? This is destined for the same place as BT's patents of hyperlinking or whatever it was.
Enforcing this patent may just reduce the number of companies/number of people who actually produce/purchase these devices, thereby harming Microsoft's WinCE.
While Microsoft might not be a defendant, I'm sure their lawyers would be more than happy to provide amicus briefs against NCR's position. Or help out defending - should Compaq or any of the other WinCE-based device makers get named.
And your hostility does nothing to improve your argument.
Which infriges on my copyright of the knot used to tie the noose.
BigCat79
BigCat79
"The dead have risen and are voting Republican!" --Bart Simpson
I still own the Model 200, and it still works. Talk about fast, 24K, built in 300 buad modem. Hell this was made before '87 as well.
I'm starting to wonder where NCR gets their crack at.
A few hours grace before the madness begins again.
However, with the number of people making them couldn't it be argued that this was simply a progression and that a novice would have thought of it.
The newton was 1993 good idea though I had to do a google search to verify.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Star Wars not being real was of course not really prior art and I can't think of any handhelp computers in it. But what about tricorders (sp?) or anything else handheld or portable from pre 1986 SF. If not prior art this would prove that it was and is a *very* obvious idea. Which is what I think you meant in any case.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Really I would like to see a link on that one. In any case I did point out that it would prove that it was obvious and to to top it off I have another one Neuromancer was published in 1984 and if decks don't prove that this is an obvious idea then I don't know what would.
Yet another reason to love William Gibson.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
In 1982 I worked for Nolan Bushnell (previously of Atari) at a company called Axlon on a product just like the one described in the patent.
That's 5 years before this patent.
I'm pretty sure those were Gameboys issued by Vader before he turned to the Dark Side.
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
I used something like this back in 1981-1983. It was called the TRS-80 POCKET COMPUTER. It was programmable in BASIC, stored data and had an input/output port that could hook up to a tape recorder or a printer. While it certainly didn't hook up to a mainframe, the device probably could have. This device certainly predated these patents....
Maybe TANDY should sue NCR!!!!!
Actually it seems any cell phone fits this and they were around before 1987. Seems to me everytime I make a call on my cell it is a transaction between me and Cingular and my Nokia is pretty portable.
"We were half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold."
-- Hunter S. Tolkien
What about Psion who made the Psion Organizer as early as 1986, predating their patent?
NCR has a patent alright, but Palm doesn't violate it, because Palm isn't "credit card size" by any stretch of the imagination.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
If I'm not mistaken, some of the Imperial administrative-types had little hand-held touch-screen datapads.
Dammit, Timothy, I'll sue! I will!
-aardvarko
webmaster at aardvarko dot com
And, of course, before the Palm Pilot, there was the Apple Newton. Before that, all kinds of "portables," laptops, and notebook computers. Before those -- well how about the Osborne 1 back in 1981/82. That was "portable."
Star Wars not being real was of course not really prior art and I can't think of any handhelp computers in it.(emphasis mine)
Hmmm. This contradiction here got me wondering. Why is it called prior art? Does it has to be artistic in any way, or at all? And does it has to be real to be successfully used against a proposed patent?
Now that I'm typing this, it sounds a bit funny, but I saw a post up there that said something about waterbeds not being patentable due to Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land". So, if any scientist invents, let's say, a Warp Drive, will it not be patentable due to all the Star Trek series and movies?
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
Learning to fly, Pink Floyd.
"Worse, it's too general"
:)
"too general" == oxymoron, when it comes to patents.
That's how you play the game: write the patent as broadly as possible to stake out as much intellectual 'property' as possible.
As Morpheus said to Neo, "Welcome to the real world."
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D. Fischer
ShoutingMan.com
They (NCR) didn't give a crap about their patent until they realized they could possibly grift Handspring and Palm. I can just see the meeting that inspired this lawsuit (it probably involved some suit jotting a note on his PalmIII and saying "hey, wait a second guys!" NCR's really pushing it here.
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
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A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I hope they are thrown out of court in much the same manner as Xerox and Apple were for waiting too damn long to try enforcing a patent (in this case the GUI interface like most of you are looking at)
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A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
At a former company we had scan-guns which had LCD-displays and button key pads, they could communicate IR, RF, or direct link, and could be hooked to small bar-code printers. They weren't NCR products, but the broad expanse of this old patent would appear to have been infringed upon many ways by that device, as well.
Now hold both Palm I and this scan-gun in your hand and you'd think, "hell, these aren't the same at all." and you'd be 90% right. It seems the 10% is where NCR's claim lies. My old TI-81 calculator would also appear to infringe as it's got memory, a display, buttons and could actually do more than just plot graphs, however, I'd expect TI and HP have that ground pretty well covered and nobody much cares anymore.
What this is, in the big picture, is Mining Old Patents & Copyrights for dollars. Considering the amount of time passed before they attempted to defend their Intellectual Property, don't expect it to go very far.
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A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
your post violates my patent #325233 on "making a redundant attepmt at a joke and posting it to an internet bulliten board."
you may make a check out for US $100.. contact sucker@stupidpatents.net for billing info.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
Add to that those people who walk around grocery stores with their portable price/inventory recording devices.
:0)
No shit!!! Did you know that US Gov't reps use something similar to calculate certain elements of Inflation. They monitor the prices of certain things like cereal and cooking oil and some other stuff that almost everyone buys on a regular basis and keep stats on it over a long period of time to see how far our buck goes now compared to then. Imagine if they try to sue the gov't...
I couldnt find their balance sheet but this might be helpfull. It's a five year graph of their stock value. Now, IANASB(stock broker) but in my amateur opinion they seem to be doing pretty well. I'm of course assuming that stock value has a correlation with corporate health. Which leads to the question, Where can I get some of what they're smokin????
"Me Ted"
BOSTON SUCKS!
I won't say MS, that's been done to death. BUT hows about UPS and FedEx, they have "portable personal terminals for use in a system for handling transactions". Come to think of it, so does ConEd and BUG (Con Edison, Brooklyn Union Gas: gas providers in NYC, they read the gas meters on the sides of our houses and have similar devices to the UPS guys).
Now that I think about it, I've been seeing a lot more IBM cash registers around then NCRs. However NCR is a huge manufacturer of ATM machines, I know that much. I'm gonna look for their balance sheet and post it up as a reply and see what their profit margins look like. Maybe we can figure out their motives.
"Me Ted"
BOSTON SUCKS!
I can see it now...NCR's lawyers will dismiss anyone who owns a Palm or Handspring, while Palm/Handspring try to keep those same people in the jury. That's if some judge decides to hear the trial. NCR may be a little late with this one, even with trial by jury it's going to be hard to get the jury to side with them (or not laugh at them.)
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
Ooops. Had cookies turned off while posting. That was me if you really want to email me.
Eris
through ingeniuty, finding opportunities and building for them, or improving upon ideas? Good lord, this is friggin' ridiculous! Seems like lawyers must have a secret society that infiltrates the board rooms of all companies not wildly succeeding, constantly pushing for litigation. The blood sucking scum.
And that's my $0.32 (adjusted for inflation).
Apple has patented the design of flowers, spots, and certain colors. They are suing God, forcing him to stop making flora and fauna, spotted animals, and to prevent Him from displaying certain colors in rainbows. Steve Jobs is reported as saying "I'll have His ass!"
And that's my $0.32 (adjusted for inflation).
Unfortunately, they can sort of do that, provided they notify Palm.
If I make a contract with a tenant that says he must pay his rent by the second day of each month and I let him get away with paying on the tenth, he is legally entitled to keep paying on the tenth. However, if I notify him that our unwritten alteration of the contract has changed and that the rent is now due on the second, he has to pay on the second or risk being sued.
It's called the "doctrine of laches." If a contract creator does not assert his rights, he may lose them - but he may gain them back if he gives notice.
It works that way in patent law also. It's sad, really, that it does, but there you go.
I got my Linux laptop at System76.
Way to go, NCR! Nice business model! Sue the shit out of people to get revenue! Nice innovation! I mean, with all the NCR "portable personal terminals" out there in use, how could Palm and Handspring be so dumb?
And never mind WindowsCE devices, they're not made for transactions, per se. And not going after Microsoft has *nothing* to do with the fact that MS's lawyers would beat NCR's lawyers to a pulp.
========================== pipe(13) -- can you figure it out?
The "Medium sized length of rope used for jumping" patent is not valid, and actually infringes on my earlier patent:
"Medium sized length of rope used for hanging."
-- Judge Thomas Lynch
I mean, how long has the Palm been in existence? And NCR only just discovers it? IANAL, but waiting for an ungodly long amount of time before suing for patent infringement should count against the plaintiff...
That said, the NCR patent sounds to me like a completely different animal from the Amazon patent. This would've been non-obvious in 1987. I assume that NCR has a few of their proto-pilots floating around in their labs...
Of course they only care about the companies that have had "tremendous commercial success." It's not like they raised this lawsuit years ago when Palm made its first product. Wait for success, then sue... now that's a good business model.
Developers: We can use your help.
This is not a Fugazi
They should sue the creators of Etcha Sketch as well !
http://logd.programgeeks.net/referral.php?r=lordv
Wow patent suits seem to be all the rage. Thoughts on this may stem from the beating companies are now taking on stock markets worldwide, and the finances their losing by the millions.
This may be a turnkey business in the next few months as businesses are attempting to stay afloat amidst the dryout of funding, etc., so I predict a flurry of Patent Law classes in law schools getting a boost as did the Physical Therapy route few years back.
These are very broad claims, and its unfortunate the article didn't zoom in on specifics. Its (the article, in my opinion) as if an auto maker states: We're patenting an auto that runs on four rubber wheels for personal use.
How are we to know what kind of auto they meant, sedan, suv, sports car, etc., they (patent committees) should do more when assessing patent rights to ensure those in possession of the patent don't get abused, as well as protect others from being abused by the owners of the patent themselves, which to me might be the case here judging from the time it took to bring this to court, current market conditions, and the overwhelming popularity of Palm. (jealousy kills)
I don't think NCR knows the value of having a "jury of its peers" means they're likely to get a bunch of homemakers with little clues on what the heck is going on in all fairness to both companies. They'll become quickly bored and this may go against NCR altogether. (my experience dealing with computers and the legal system)
Theories in DoS
360 degrees of Karma
Well I recall back in 1984 - 1985 using a laptop (well more like portable pc ) to make orders entries and submit them to a BBS in which someone took my order and sent the product to the customers.
Would this be prior work ? if so I bet I still have the books somewhere.
spambait e-mail
my web site artistcorner.tv hip-hop news
please help me make it better
if you see me, smile and say hello.
...tender flaky golden cakey out-side...
wrap the inside in the outside what you get? darn tootin!
it's the FUCKING...
...APPLE...
NEWTOOOOOOOOOOON!
(Someone tell NCR they were beaten to it by a guy in a fig-suit.)
--Blair
I've never handled any transactions on my palm III and I'll testify to that in court if asked.
This reminds me of the type-writer sellers who try to get into selling computers (word processors).
What is pirate software? Software for inventory of stolen treasure?
Unless you live in Japan, at which point you can patent things that were invented by another civilization, while you were still poking fish with sharp sticks (i.e. the guys in Japan that tried to patent curry)...
If someone has already used that business model YOU CAN'T PATENT IT. I realise your post was a joke but please understand the subjects you are joking about. People have been sueing over patent infringement for years, maybe, just may... WAIT A MINUTE DID YOU EAT MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
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WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
unfortunatly for you I have already patented it!!!11 God, slashdot jokes are so fucking LAME.
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WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
You can't patent something that has prior art. The point of this article being posted on slashdot? Why I beleive it is so hundred's of posters can get (+5 Insightful) for saying "HAR HAR MY CHECKBOOK SI PRIOR ART!/"
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WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
Notice that the NCR did not sue them until both companies (Palm and Handspring) became popular and succesful. Right there folks, is the way to go to become rich.
Diplomacy is the art of letting people have your way
From the article: In papers filed on Wednesday in U.S. District Court in Delaware, NCR said, ``Palm and Handspring knew about the NCR patents, (but) chose not to seek licenses from NCR.'' The technology allows retail and consumer users access to and the ability to manage ``substantial'' amounts of information. The lawsuit cited two products, the Palm Pilot and Handspring Visor (news - web sites), as allegedly infringing devices that have had ''tremendous commercial success.''
Diplomacy is the art of letting people have your way
Where does that leave us? i mean i Know Handspring nand palm have GREAT reps for PA's, but ui dont know about NCR. Couldnt they also be considered as making a monopoly? (or are there other Manufacturers, im not in the market, so i dont know|)
BAH! Wave of Paw
NCR has little ground for suing. Is keeping my datebook and playing a few games considered "transactions"? I don't think so, at least not in the sense that a company called "National Cash Register" thinks. Maybe they have a shadow case now that things like the palm XII or any unit with a Minstrel wireless modem allow you to buy stuff online wirelessly, but I still think it's a stretch. On a side note, why are they just going after the two biggest Palm OS companies? Why not go after Compaq and HP and the myriad others that make WinCE based handhelds? Maybe their lawyers don't have that kind of guts :-)
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.