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Windows 7 Starter Edition — 3 Apps Only
CrustyFace writes "Cybernit reports that the Starter Edition version of Windows 7 will only allow the user to run 3 applications at once. Targeted at notebooks, this doesn't seem like such a bad limitation, however it is a bold move from Microsoft, and it will be interesting to see how the operating system sells."
In response to the announcement of Microsoft's innovative 3-application limit, Apple corporation has said it will release a version of OS X that will allow only one application to run at a time, but in a more friendly and artistically enhanced environment than Windows Reduced Vista(tm.) Apple announced the special version late Sunday evening, at a special event entitled "You're the One." Steve Jobs emerged from his semi-retirement to explain how Apple's invention of this one-to-one relationship between users and applications would "revolutionize computing." Jobs stated that the new OS would also herald a return to the one-button mouse, single monitors, and Apple's new "One-at-a-time" network stream technologies.
Overnight, the Linux community, leveraging its well known security advantages and high speed development based upon open source and developers active in all time zones at once, has released a beta of "Linux Zero", which they claim is the most secure operating system in the world, and the least confusing, by virtue of its enforcement of zero applications running. Linux authority Linus Torvalds said "if an application can't run, it can't bring worms or viruses into the system. In addition, user interaction is now limited to pressing the power button." Waxing optimistic, he went on to say that "We think even Windows users can learn to do this." He told this reporter "In fact, the price is zero, too!"
An unconfirmed rumor also developed this weekend of an OS that is so carefully and explicitly restricted that consumers interaction with it is limited to attempting to install it; as the rumor goes, completing the installation requires permissions that users simply do not have available to them. Such an operating system would provide the ultimate consumer safety net. When asked to comment, both Jobs and Torvalds derided the rumor as being propaganda. Both OS mavens insisted that technology wasn't up to such a challenge yet. The rumor, however, persists.
When contacted by the press for comments on these new developments, Intel explained that multi-core processors were designed specifically for reduced application counts. It is only now that the leading OS manufacturers are revealing their deep strategies for the decade of 2010 that Intel is able to comment on the real rationale for multiple cores. Technical Leader Sanji Ramahasmiran" laid out several reasons why systems with few- or single-application loads would benefit directly from multiple cores. He said "Our new 8-core dies will allow switching the same single task cyclically from one core to another, thus reducing the activity levels to 1/8th that of single-core designs and operating in a greener fashion, contributing less to global warming, and simplifying programmer APIs in any properly designed operating system."
Simply as a personal observation, I always enjoy seeing how competition ensures that corporations compete for the marketplace by leveraging their core competencies and working to out-do one another. The end users always benefit. No matter who your favorite OS manufacturer is, the industry finds a way to work to bring you the latest developments. Isn't technology wonderful?
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Artificial limitations like this seem to me to be an invitation for problems and end user frustration.
What is an application?
Are tool tray apps possible, or allowed?
What about apps that launch other apps as part of their functionality?
Would Chrome be limited to two tabs? (One for the host window, two and three for the first two tabs.)
I would say this is an invitation for piracy, but if it really is intended for netbooks, most consumers would find it very hard to install a new OS on a computer with no cd drive. It will make users angry, although potentially limit things on machines with small amounts of RAM.
If it's intended for developing countries, I suspect piracy (or Linux) will win out.
Soccer Goal Plans
Sadly, I cannot follow the link from here at work: but my first question is "what's an app?" Make it too broad and your anti-virus and IM client leave you with only one. Make it to narrow and it's an easy to circumvent limitation
This is not new, this version was announced pre-beta when MS first unveiled the different versions that were coming down the pipe.
should be enough for any Dell.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
This is pretty blatantly defective by design. I can see a lot of people (especially less sophisticated users) being caught out by this when they discover that they can't run outlook, internet explorer, media player -and- messenger all at the same time. Or will Windows apps that are 'part of the os' going to be excluded from those three programs? I think MS's gun is pointed firmly at its downward.
Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
This is the most useless thing I ever heard of... It's like selling an incomplete OS...
Why are they deliberately fucking up their OS? Don't they have enough competition? If so, bring in the anti-trust people, or fire the department responsible for this kind of brain-damage.
one of them will be the System Idle process. Naturally. That's the one that hogs 98% almost all the time.
Todos mis movimientos están friamente calculados
Most users wouldn't actually see this as a problem. Certainly the people I know that aren't much into computers are very happy once their MSN and browser with facebook and hotmail is running.
"If anyone needs me, I'm in the angry dome."
Outlook, MSN Messenger, Media Player and Internet Explorer is very much a basic minimum, and on top of that you need what ever apps are required for the work you are doing.
If the three app limit includes things like virus scanners and cellphone connection managers, then it is even more limited.
Really, nowadays you can do practically everything with just your browser. It's the new emacs.
This isn't newsworthy. Starter Edition, ever since its inception, has had a 3 app limit.
Why are we wasting time on this again?
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
Apple corporation has said it will release a version of OS X that will allow only one application to run at a time
Apple already released such an operating system in 2007. I think it's called "iPhone OS".
VMware with 3 more versions of Windows 7. AH-HA! Beat you at your own game Micro$oft!
3 is way too small; even for just web browsing and IM:-
1. Windows Explorer.
2. (web browser of choice)
3. Java VM
4. Anti-Virus
5. IM
--- Users are like bacteria -> Each one causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally gives up and dies.
http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/09/1348255&from=rss
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
They must be trying to push their virtualization stuff.
Does explorer.exe count? and if not, then what about, say, msword.exe? Are you really limited to 3 Apps, or is it 3 non-microsoft apps? If it survives, this can only get uglier.
Dupe and lie.
Chapeau bas, slashdot.
What is an app?
antivirus
firewall
explorer
Those are the three apps you get to load. All done
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
First, this isn't news, and it's been discussed at length for months. Second, it's being flogged to OEMs, so it's not actually going to get any "sales". Third, it was supposedly targetted at netbooks, not notebooks. Fourth, it's aimed at PCs that would ship Windows-free in general, not netbooks, anyway. Fifth, you linked to someone's stupid ad-strewn site which tells us F-all about it.
"That's a pretty nice computer you got there. Be a shame if someone was to cripple it. By the way, have you seen the shiny upgrades we got nowadays?"
Would Chrome be limited to two tabs? (One for the host window, two and three for the first two tabs.)
Chrome and Firefox count as 4 applications each, and thus can't run.
I like this new term "crippleware" the article uses.
What word can't you append to the front of -ware to create a fun new phrase?!
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." - Pablo Picasso
are enough for anyone.
Good people go to bed earlier.
"You can have the friking useless edition for 40$. Or, you can be a premium user of the Shiny Platinum Standard Edition VIP for 150$.
Yes, we understand it's a bit expensive, but you're buying the PSS Edition VIP, what did you expect?".
svchost.exe
svchost.exe
svchost.exe
There, you've used up your allotment of three apps.
You'll get people here saying 3 apps is enough for any one (is enough for any one should raise alarms) but if Microsoft is banking on this limited OS against Linux, ARM CPUs and any cost and power advantages they offer in the market I see problems for them.
Cause Microsoft fanbois still think this is a myth.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
Because, in the world of Windows, Windows doesn't really know what an application is. It has processes and windows and that's it. You can and will have a single process with multiple root windows, so, if you go by that, you screw the users - indeed, with Office actually.
If you go by processes, a very fundamental design difference between Windows and Linux begins to show. In Windows, processes do not have parents. If one process spawns another, they are always peers. So, while in Linux, once could theoretically make a graph of an "application", and do an "application limit" count, in Windows, you really can't.
A simple case in point would be if you have a browser and an EXE associated with it, or, launch a browser from an EXE via ShellExecute...
It's just a dumb idea. Microsoft is going the route of GM. They used to be aggressive and innovative, for the people that liked them, and now, every time they do something cool, they do something stupid twice over.
PS. I'm still bitter about SVG not being in Internet Explorer.
This is my sig.
This article is basically a two paragraph summary of something I would expect to hear from a hysterical spitting nerd who hadn't showered for three days standing outside of a Gamestop. (Or in a Digg summary)
"Windows Home Basic OMG! Such shite! Install linux!"
I'm actually kind of offended it got posted. Plus also, it's already been discussed ad nauseam.
Send me to troll hell, but you know it's true.
Platform advocacy is like choosing a favorite severely developmentally disabled child.
Now I'm not an M$ fanboy so save your trolling, but TFA is clearly biased and written badly. Thankfully there's a link to a better article hidden in there somewhere, and I suggest people read it before they post or judge.
You can advertise in this sig from as little as £99.99 a month!
So that makes it bound to sell super well.
"Sorry. Windows Limited Edition has exceeded the number of allowed programs. To unlock Windows Home Premium Bloat Edition enter your credit card number and press [Enter]."
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
As much fun as it is to predict consumer outrage, and assume Linux wins as default. The reality is that OEM's are just as smart as we are. They won't put this on any mainstream mass produced hardware. They'll threaten to switch back to Linux on netbooks, in order to keep the price they pay for a fully functional version of windows down.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Who wants to bet that Microsoft applications don't count towards the limit?
Seriously, though, someone below mentioned Windows Explorer. Since "explorer.exe" is always running anyway (except when it crashes and you lose the start menu), I don't see how that can count. And iexplore is quite similar, and used internally.
They can't possibly equate "applications" with processes, since average Windows systems will have 40 to 60 processes at a given time.
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
Im no windows fan but I'd love to put this on a couple of my clients workstations. At least once a day I get a call saying how "slow" their computer and network are. They are too cheap to spring for more memory or faster machines but want 50 windows opened at a time.
Wouldn't this be illegal?
I remember a while ago NVIDIA had two models of graphics cards, One would work average and the other would go super-superfast. The difference between the two (apart from about $1,900) was that the super-superfast card and the normal card had the same hardware chip by chip, but the slower card had a line of code on firmware that said "Don't go faster then X speed"
Isn't this the exact same scenario? "Don't open more then 3 programs"?
Most of these question are answered in an article that this (poorly written and biased) one links to. I suggest you check it out. It's the zdnet.com one about half way down the page.
You can advertise in this sig from as little as £99.99 a month!
I'm guessing that a new 3rd party shell will be released within a month of Windows 7 that defeats this. Anyone want to take a wager on when or how this will be cracked?
moox. for a new generation.
lorem ipsum and all that jazz.
Best Slashdot Co
Vista Home Basic is the new "developing countries" OS. Vista Starter is the version that's going to be given out essentially free to OEMs worldwide to avoid them shipping cheap PCs (netbook or not) with Linux. It'll be upgradable by the user from there to "full" Windows which is of course what MS expects everyone to do. MS has argued for a long time that Win7 is scalable and there's nothing except cost to stop OEMs providing it on Netbooks.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
It probably won't, at least not to consumers. The questions is how will the netbooks equipped with it sell. And the answer to that is about as well as any windows netbook as once this is out, XP will probably not be offered. And as most people only use one or two apps at a time because of the nature and limitations of netbooks, the limit won't likely even be noticed.
Indeed. What advantage would Windows 7 starter offer over Ubuntu Netbook Remix?
Also, about installing an OS from a flash drive, remember the advances we have seen in OS install programs in the last 10 years.
I am pretty sure there could be a program to sell cheap 1GB drives with different flavors of Linux preinstalled...
No sig for the moment.
I am using beta Windows 7 CXP (Crippled Experience) so applications are defined by items in taskbar. I can't tell more because they also limited per app keystro
839*929
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=844
Here are some selected quotes:
"you can open as many windows as you want from a single program. So if you want to open 15 tabs in your browser, six images in your photo-editing program, and a couple of instant messenger windows, you can do it."
"Windows Explorer windows don't count."
"Basic Windows tools don't trigger the limit. You can run a Command Prompt window or open Task Manager"
"Antivirus programs that run as a system service don't count."
"In short, when I used this system as a netbook, it worked just fine. On a netbook, most of the tasks you're likely to tackle are going to take place in a browser window anyway."
"If I tried to use this system as a conventional notebook, running multiple Microsoft Office or OpenOffice aps, playing music in iTunes or Windows Media Player, and using third-party IM programs, I would probably be incredibly frustrated with the limitations of Starter Edition."
FORWARD! INTO THE PAST!!!
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Err, I mean "Win7 Home Basic" and "Win7 Starter".
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
What is an application?
Are tool tray apps possible, or allowed?
It's not a bug, it's a security feature. By keeping 3 applications running all the time (web browser, email, word processor), you prevent any other application from running and pwning your computer!
All it means that there will be even more pirated versions of a 'proper' Windows 7 going around...
Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
Again, i wonder what their definition of 'application' is? I would think one could create an 'application' that is able to spawn threads running any other application the users chooses. Just create a 'jump panel' listing all the program you'd like to run and just spawn the processes to start those applications from within one process. The netbooks are only single core so performance will take a hit, but at the same time it's a netbook. It's not meant to do anything incredibly useful other than read PDF books, check the internet, or whatever have you. Considering IE8 spawns off a new thread for each tab open as does Chrome and others i'd assume my suggestion would be possible.
Or, something that most Slashdotters conviently ignore, is that people won't want this, and that the netbook sellers will sell different editions of Windows 7 on their netbook, or make it easy to upgrade. Considering Vista supported in-place upgrade, I'm sure it'll be available to go from Starter to Premium or whatever in 7.
Doesn't Chrome count as one task per "tab"?
And doesn't IE do this too?
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Since a new PC comes with 20 application running in the background and after 1 week of playing around you have 20 more. I guess allowing users to use only 3 at the same time seems like an excellent idea.
LOL
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
The outrage! I'm not sure why I'm mad, all I know is that slashdot posted another MS article and my natural reaction is to be pissed! I will not read TFA or actually research for an informed opinion, as it may extinguish my righteous indignation and as a result my day will be far less interesting. I will rant on about Microsoft crippling their software which is intended for poor and developing nations at a fraction of the cost of a standard license. I will make the assumption that it is intended for mass consumption, or that it will be available for purchase off the shelf. I am a tool. I am a slashdot drone.
Similes are like metaphors
subject line
posted on /. a while ago. It's also up to OEM's if they offer this or or Windows 7 Home Premium. How many times will this story be posted to Slashdot? The last one was in February. Editors, surely you would have known something like this was posted before, with a better article.
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
The news is that, at least potentially, we'll be seeing the crippled edition shipping on first-world netbooks. You pretty much had to go on safari to find XP starter edition.
If the price is bargain low I could see myself grabing a licence. I only use windows for gaming anyway. A game + web browser would be enough for me.
Taken from Microsoft(TM) Dictionary:
start-er [stahr-ter]
-adjective
1. constituting an intentionally limited or crippled version of something
Synonyms:
1: demo, trial, evaluation
There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
I only need one application - Fdisk!
I wonder how long this will last when Microsoft finds out that users are only running one app--the browser--and using gmail, Google docs, etc to run all of their stuff. I can't see this sticking if it has the effect of driving users away from the other MS cash cow: Office.
Application 1: Sandbox VMWare. Ah... so, run everything again.
Here is a review of using the Starter Edition. Including some things that don't count against the app count.
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
whooosh...
In that case they should definitely ditch that darn blue screen application.
Um, where are you getting that? TFA explicitly states that it's targeted at developing nations--places where XP Starter with the same 3-app limit have been sold for years. Microsoft never said that Starter was intended for netbooks, either--that was mostly just speculation by the media.
I hope that windows releases start edition on every new pc/notebook. Just imagine all the tech support issues: "I can't browse the web AND listen to music at the same time?"
linux would be adopted so fast that my head would swirl.
the same time, how much would it cost to run three at the same time?
You know what the best part about this is? I DON'T CARE ONE BIT.
When I first read the title my instinct was to get angry. Then suddenly I felt a wave of calm come over me as I realized that I haven't relied on windows for 5 years now.
I simply just don't care any more.
Faith is a willingness to accept something w/o complete proof and to act on it. Reason allows you to correct that faith.
Why so much controversy about the limitation to 3 apps ? This is perfect for a typical Windows user who needs an anti-virus, a firewall, and a pop-up blocker. There you have it !
I guess the real question is how many spyware apps can you run at once?
I am using beta Windows 7 CXP (Crippled Experience) so applications are defined by items in taskbar. I can't tell more because they also limited per app keystro
What about using programs like TrayIt which removes it from the taskbar to the system tray.
Linux could only dream of the sales numbers this "POS" will have. P is punky, not piece.
It doesn't matter really if the buyer puts win7 warez edition on after he buys it since MS already got $25 from him. This also, and perhaps primarily, gets the OEMs to not even consider Linux on the OEM's bottom-tier line.
because they're allowing it in the US now.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
He said piracy first, the Linux was just wishful thinking.
People will just pirate the hell out of the full version of W7.
Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
Honestly I'm not sure OEMs are actually going to go for it as a product. Whenever a new version of Windows launches they fall over themselves to sell behind-the-curve PCs "supporting" feature X, Y, and Z simply because those features have been added to the OS, and Win7 Starter denies them that opportunity.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
This is an absolute farce.
MS is now in such a dominant position that it is now artificially limiting features to introduce competition and introduce artificial price points. It's aimed at the hardware vendors, and at the price of other operating systems to drive them out of the market.
It's still anti-competitive. It's still MS.
ws
So does Anonymous Coward have good karma?
I thought they simply arranged to be paid by hostages -er, I mean OEMs. Not exactly a regular marketplace, more like protection money. Selling involves making product that offers users something useful for which they willingly pay. In the absence of meaningful competition (numerically speaking) MS hasn't "competed" for a very long time. They simply expect to be paid. Oddly enough, it shows.
This just tsrikes me as stupid, the limitations on Home XP vs. XP pro are bad enough, now Microsoft is just going to piss of anyone who buys something w/ "Win7 Starter" installed, it may be easy to upgrade, but you'll have to pay extra for it, and so it loses MS the advantage of hiding the operating system cost from the user.
3 Apps at a time. I think that Microsoft should allow this version of the OS to be downloadable for free. It would probably do their PR and marketing some good -- more people to try it out certainly, and would create good will for allowing the product to be free for users who don't really need the power of Windows but still want to buy Microsoft applications.
Pisses me off that the cheaper electronic devices get, the higher per-unit cost the Microsoft tax becomes. The net effect for consumers is they end up with less hardware for their dollar and netbook manufacturers get less profit.
I really hope the netbook manufacturers band together and just tell Microsoft this is a terrible idea and hold their ground. Microsoft may not bow to consumer demand, but they might to a unified OEM response.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
What counts and doesn't count was clearly stated out in a better article: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=844 In short, a lot of things don't count towards the limit: services, Explorer, tray apps, command prompts, etc. TFA appears to just be a bad (and very incomplete) rip of the piece at zdnet... (which seems increasingly common on /.--quoting from "articles" or blogs that are often incomplete and poor rips of an original article)
Does this seem like a blatant attempt to get people to buy the more expensive versions by making the cheap ones purposefully suck? They can say Windows 7 starts at $50 or $99 or whatever, but you really end up paying $299, because that's where the price starts for any OS anyone would actually want to use. And what value you're getting for that little bit of extra money (the upgrade to the $150 version is only a little, but the upgrade to the $200 version is only a little more from there... etc).
"We'll also continue to offer Windows Starter edition, which will only be offered pre-installed by an OEM. Windows Starter edition will now be available worldwide. This edition is available only in the OEM channel on new PCs limited to specific types of hardware."
From Microsoft's press release.
That three-app limit isnâ(TM)t as cut and dried as it sounds ... Windows Explorer windows donâ(TM)t count ... basic Windows tools donâ(TM)t trigger the limit ... Desktop gadgets are free ... some system utilities get to bypass the three-app limit
So, basically, the three app limit is there to hinder the end user's use of products that compete with Windows' own components that are unhindered. Can't run Firefox, Thunderbird, Pidgin, and Openoffice all at the same time? No problem, just supplant one of those with a Windows component and buy a little of your freedom back with a little bit of soul crushing submission.
perl -e "eval pack(q{H*},join q{},qw{70 72696e74207061636b28717b482a7d2c717b343 637323635363534323533343430617d293b})"
I think you are confusing Applications and Processes. See Windows Task Manager (Ctrl+Alt+Del) for clarification. I still think the only price they can sell that crippleware for is free. Oh, and I pray they are too stupid to do that. Imagine what free handicapped version of Windows would do to desktop Linux as a cost reduction measure.
"it will be interesting to see how the operating system sells"
That edition won't sell on the main consumer markets, at least not in the richer countries such as the US and EU, and isn't intended to. My guess is that it will mainly be targeted as a cheap option for OEMs to include on low spec devices such as "netbooks" where most non-techie users will run just a web browser most of the time, perhaps a web browser and a basic word processor or maybe a simple game.
I'm guessing that multiple instances of a web browser will count as a single application, rather than each process counting, otherwise Firefox (which always runs a single process for all windows and tabs) would have an advantage over IE which (certainly IE6 and IE7 under XP, though for all I currently know this may differ for IE8 on Windows 7) sometimes starts new processes for new windows depending how it is launched
It will also be targeted at OEMs and end users in poorer countries too no doubt, so they don't have to cut the price of the other editions so much to get legitimate sales. It may be sold for educational uses too (your average kid in a classroom isn't going to be expected to be running many programs at once) and the makers of kiosk-type machines (cash registers, tourist attraction info stations, ...) where there is usually only ever one program running.
It will be interesting to see how the operating system fails.
This starter edition is a class-action waiting to happen.
It's crippled. It's not missing features, it's missing functionality.
Millions will be livid when the find out the truth about it's lack of capabilities.
Microsoft will lose their ass on this again. It's a really bad idea.
They're using their grammar skills there.
I think this is Microsoft's main problem. They've re-used the naming convention for Vista/XP Starter Edition which was intended for developing countries even though this OS has a completely different target market and completely different rationale behind its limit. It's for netbooks and it's so they can attempt to ensure a certain minimum performance level on such low power hardware without stripping the OS's features as much.
Whether you agree with their solution or not, their reasons are of a purely technical nature and not an economical or, some would claim, malicious one. At least not *this* time.
Or it could be they re-used the name because they intend to use the same build for both purposes.
Windows 7 twitter edition?
All documents limited to 140 characters.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
If I try to run more than 3 apps under Vista, I run out of memory.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Now I can make money for my Vista shell application that executes processes as threads... MWAHAHA
Learn something new.
Three apps at once...guess that seems all well and good, but what counts as an application?
I presume opening explorer windows would not, as that is part of the GUI shell, but what about Internet Explorer? Would each window be an app, or each tab? I would consider that unreasonable, as a lot of even basic users could commonly have 3 tabs or windows open. But, if they did not limit the number of IE windows or tabs open, that would give AJAX-based apps a leg up right? I mean, open as many Google docs of any type up as you want in IE vs. being limited with Office.
What about software that runs as a service, and offers interactive users a GUI through the "system tray"? Would my anti-virus use up one of my 3 applications? Our company makes an application that can run as a service, or run as an application. Does it not count as an app if it is in "service mode"? What about instant messaging? Like anti-virus it is really a "service" more than a full on app, and users would really demand that it be able to run in the background without overly limiting usability. Do these services become apps as soon as they open GUI windows? How nasty would it be if you couldn't read an IM until you closed your browser because you had 3 windows open?
A lot of these oddities/complexities in today's PC environment could be used to get around the spirit of the 3-app-at-once imposed limit on Starter Edition. However, if MSFT cracked down on developers for skirting their newest DRM offering would that not unreasonably hamper usability of the product in addition to alienating developers?
Also, has it occurred to MSFT yet that their business model is uncomfortably similar to organised crime? I'm seriously not trying to make a joke.
First off, MSFT conducts licensing audits of businesses--and even non-profits and school boards and such, invariably finding some degree of non-compliance because of what can be confusing EULAs for naive employees/teachers/volunteers/students. MSFT offers amnesty in the form of payment without litigation--even special rates on "software assurance" contracts. Does this not sound like a mobster coming into a store, having his goons trash a display of merchandise and saying "nice store--it'd be a shame if something happened to it..."?
Then MSFT starts flexing it's patent portfolio, and starts shaking down competitors, either by signing a "cross-licensing" agreement (a la Novell) or throwing lawsuits at them (Tom Tom). For a matter of a "small" amount of money MSFT will not cause further stress or anguish and the products offered by the victims will be allowed on the marketplace. Sounds like more "protection money"
Now we have this further promotion of crippleware--targeted at entry-level users, primarily in developing nations no less. Just when you thought MSFT had stooped as low as it could by behaving like Mafia men, it now acts like the gangster punk selling crack to street people--get them hooked on something cheap and hope they form a dependency on your goods to the point they "need more" to get by. When I think about how increasingly disruptive a 3-app limit would become as users became more sophisticated I can see the parallels.
I know that the seriousness of the REAL organised crime problems around the world are many orders of magnitude larger and more important than the marketing tactics on MSFT. I hope nobody is offended by my comparison thinking i'm trivialising the crime problem, however I think it is important to point out how the tactics used in such criminal activity parallel MSFT's business model. I would hope that MSFT would see this, because though what MSFT is doing is perfectly legal, they are still engaging in exploitive tactics with their customers. If customers feel like their being exploited to much, for too long, competitors who treat them better will inevitably take their place.
I used site:microsoft.com just to get it right from the horse's mouth...
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2009/feb09/02-03netbooksqa.mspx
For OEMs that build lower-cost small notebook PCs, Windows 7 Starter will now be available in developed markets.
I wonder if VirtualPC running Linux running Wine running a bunch of apps counts as 1 app or a bunch?
Just asking.
Besides, for "Web Terminals" or "Remote Desktop Terminals" 3 apps is doable:
Web Browser or Remote Desktop.
Notepad for quickly copy and pasting snippets of stuff to your thumb drive.
Solitaire, because lets be honest, that's all anyone ever uses Windows for anyways.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
but you're buying the PSS Edition
PSS? Piece of Shit Software? /Pass
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
-- The Doctor, "Doctor
This will likely be the most secure and stable version yet. Running only 3 apps will reduce opportunities for BSOD. If trojans, malware, and viruses are considered applications, then they can't run due to the 3 app rule. Sounds like a stroke of genious!
"You can't really dust for vomit" --Nigel Tufnel
Comment removed based on user account deletion
You left out malware. Does malware count as an app? If so, three pieces of malware can prevent you from using any apps.
If regedit.exe counts as an app, you won't be able to clean out the malware either. I think I'll stick with Jaunty.
"Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?"
1, AV
2, Anti spyware
3, Firewall
Now you can't be owned, because the OS won't run the malware...
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
....does that include the virus?
And even then there are a few risks... This probably isn't a commercial option, though.
"we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
I like your qoute, but it's Larry Flynt, not Flint.
According the article on ZDnet, background services and basic windows apps don't count, so you can basically can open Firefox, Thunderbird and say Winamp at once.
It depends on how much it will cost.
If Windows 7 Starter will be priced at $1 - $5, it will be well worth it.
so what happens when an app crashes, and zombies exist. I can't wait to hear about gramma not being able to open ANY applications because all 3 games she played last night are zombified and not showing on the task bar.
is spyware exempt? that will be a huge factor in people not being able to start any application. if 3 spyware apps are open, can they start McAfee to clean them? or would that go over the limit?
this could be fun. like watching those staged building demolitions in Vegas.
You can find the answer to most of your questions from the people who have tested the thing: Living with the limits of Windows 7 Starter Edition
Wasn't this the plot of some Dilbert strip?
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
Targeted at developing nations... But in developing nations, people simply don't care about licenses, so the "Professional" edition is quickly installed and no one ever uses starter edition. In fact, it happened to the Home edition some laptops came with. This is a lame attempt to stop selling of machines with free software alternatives (gnu/linux, freedos, etc).
At this time, people wipe Vista and struggle hard to make XP work, as some brands decided to stop providing XP drivers, ppl start searching for chipsets, etc to find a suitable driver; anything but vista; and there some Ubuntu installs have been doing great :)
Quite simply Mircrosoft wants control, and we want freedom.
Artix
Your Linux, your init.
Yeah, we know this... ..as we know nobody uses it. I never spotted a single copy of it.
... Or the 1 app you'll run is XP in a VM.
It means that I'll never have more than three spyware apps on my computer at one time.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
The Wall Street Journal has more thoughtful writeup of why MS is doing rather than the "Windoze is shiat. Install Linux. Be a haxxor!" dribble. The problem is three fold:
One option that MS has (other than continuing to support XP) is to get Windows 7 to run with fewer resources; however, netbooks have even smaller margins than regular desktops which means that most manufacturers will not pay for a regular OEM license. So MS has to make Win 7 cheaper. The only way to do that is to make it more limited. The only other option is to concede the market to Linux which they will never do.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Vista had a starter edition as well with similar limiitations. Microsoft releases these smaller editions to reach a larger market share. If all you use your computer for is e-mail, it is hard to rationalize paying $200+ dollars for an OS. Microsoft gets critisized for it's complicated licensing models, but from a business perspective, it makes sense. Consumers and businesses simply do not want to pay for things they will never use.
If it is significantly cheaper, it will make buying Windows for my children much simpler. We only play one game at a time.
http://www.gigaslax.com/
What advantage would Windows 7 starter offer over Ubuntu Netbook Remix?
Familiarity. More applications designed for Windows with which users are already familiar run under Windows 7 than under Wine, albeit not at the same time. In a lot of vertical markets, there often just isn't an equivalent Linux app.
If I well remember, there are ways to get a maximum of 3 processes in several other OS as well:
in VMS: set MAXPROCESSCNT to 5 (obviously);
in some old version of Linux (pre 2.4): set NR_TASKS to a suitable small number [I guess 10-something should work; there were not that may kernel threads back then]
To set the limits on v6 for the pdp11, just look at line 0144 on Lions' book:
#define NPROC 4
should do the trick, hopefully.
As such, I blame once more this product for its utter failure to innovate!
All this will do is evoke the wrath of the people who actually purchase the starter version as I'm sure most people who do purchase it, will do so because it's cheaper that the other versions.
It's amazing to me that considering how intelligent these guys are supposed to be, yet they make boneheaded decisions on a daily basis.
To more accurately reflect the scope of this release, they should rename it the Apple and Linux Booster Version.
Well, you completely missed the joke there, but I'll try to make helpful response. Chrome uses one process per tab. IE8 uses a single process and separates tabs into threads of the process. It seems that Starter Edition is basing this on the number of "applications" based on what shows up under "Applications" tab in Task Manager. So Chrome and IE should each only be counted as a single application toward the limit.
Someone else mentioned using tray apps that hide applications in the system tray instead of in the task bar to circumvent the limitation. I suspect that might work if it also removes it from the "Applications" tab of Task Manager.
Said, "It's just like dice but it's got more sides And it tells me who lives and who dies"
I hope not, because surely no one will ever need more, just as they will never need more than 3 processes.
Seriously-- really love these restrictions. They will just continue to drive people away from Windows. And I'm sorry, but even "starter" users will notice this. Windows users always have a million of those stupid little apps running in their tray like "Weather Bug" and the like. I wonder how they measure this? Does it affect programs that run as browser plugins (but still separate processes) like Java or Adobe Reader?
"Windows has detected that you are not rich enough to run this program." Give us more money if you want to browse, chat, listen to music, AND open that photo you just received.
It's funny that this "starter user" segment is one of the two that Linux targets so well--extreme beginners, and advanced users. It's those damn middle users who *think* they know what they are doing but refuse to actually learn that cause us so much trouble.
I can still compile and run unix apps written 20 years ago on linux today. Can you say that for running a win32 app on Windows 3.0?
No , didn't think so.
Some people are already finding all they need to access everything they want is already available in a single window - Firefox connected to all the web apps they need. If a starter edition of Windows were widely adopted, it would push more and more developers to derive solutions that don't consume one of those running applications - the result will be more web applications. I don't think this is what Microsoft really wants. Sure they have all those Live apps, but they are apps. They don't run in the browser... Once you can live with just 3 applications, how is Windows relevant anymore?
"however it is a bold move from Microsoft, and it will be interesting to see how the operating system sells."
Yeah, it's a bold move, like the scene from the movie "Dodgeball" where the team from "Average Joe's" is about to forfeit in the dodgeball tournament, and the brain-fried "color" guy says "It's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see how it works out."
http://www.moviewavs.com/php/sounds/?id=gog&media=MP3S&type=Movies&movie=Dodgeball_A_True_Underdog_Story"e=boldstrategy.txt&file=boldstrategy.mp3
No, it's not...
Your available resources control how much you can run. An arbitrary limit on number of apps is stupid, what if you want to run 4 very small programs that don't use many resources?
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Indeed. What advantage would Windows 7 starter offer over Ubuntu Netbook Remix?
Also, about installing an OS from a flash drive, remember the advances we have seen in OS install programs in the last 10 years. I am pretty sure there could be a program to sell cheap 1GB drives with different flavors of Linux preinstalled...
Like the Universal Netbook Installer? Plug in your thumb drive, select a linux distro, and the program downloads the image, and copies it to your usb stick. Reboot your computer, and install.
"3 Applications ought to be enough for anybody!"
My home "notebook" is far more powerful than my work desktop computer. Why should "notebooks" be limited to three programs...as if they were second class citizens to desktops? Perhaps the summary meant "netbooks"?
In any case, this demonstrates that Microsoft just doesn't get it. If they want to make the OS "easy", why not just offer one version like that other OS?
It seems that netbooks are the primary excuse for pushing this - "most people won't need to run more than 3 apps on a netbook" - or something to that effect. In many cases, the only significant difference between today's 'netbooks' and my 6-year-old laptop is size and weight. I can tell you that I regularly run more than 3 apps on my old laptop.
Granted, I wouldn't want to be writing code or documents on the tiny screen & keyboard of a netbook. However, I don't think it's reasonable to dictate what I can do with my computer based on it's physical dimensions. I could easily find 4 things for my computer to do that don't require lots of typing/reading.
Just my $0.02. I won't be affected by this anyway, since I just wouldn't buy a machine with that version of Windows (or of course I'd just install Linux).
"Why are they deliberately fucking up their OS?" - by Jurily (900488) on Tuesday April 21, @10:58AM (#27660585)
Per my subject-line? Agreed, 110%, & wondering WHY on that note, myself.. especially in regards to these 2 issues in Windows VISTA, Server 2008, & yes, Windows 7:
----
1.) The issue with HOSTS files involves EFFICIENCY more than security though!
See - in removing (after the 12/2009 Patch Tuesday update) the ability to use 0 as a valid blocking IP address in a HOSTS file (vs. the larger & slower 0.0.0.0, & worse still the default 127.0.0.1 loopback adapter address)? MS made a blunder on disk, & made things less efficient in HOSTS files, since the filemass is now larger & WILL be slower to read thru, as well as not being able to 'pack' as many entries into a tinier filespace to read them up from.
(THUS, MS is contributing to inefficiency & yes, "bloat", in doing this latter one...)
AND, FOR ANOTHER?
2.) THE REMOVAL OF THE PORT FILTERING GUI FRONT-END CONTROLS in VISTA &/or Windows 7, for one thing - Port filtering functions perfectly operating simultaneously alongside software firewalls, & IP Security Policies
(All 3 security "filters" for IP here, run FINE together, even w/ a NAT true stateful packet inspecting "firewalling" router, for example)
They do so in a layered security manner, just like door handle locks (firewall), deadbolt locks (port filters), & chain locks (IP Security policies) do...
(I.E.-> Take 1 of those 3 layers down (which is what many malware seek to do, right away)? The others are STILL IN THE WAY, since they all operate via diff. drivers on DIFF. LEVELS of the IP stack...!)
Thus, SPECIFICALLY on this latter point of contention?
Well, I'll now note how:
----
1.) TCP/IP packet processing paths differences between in how Windows 2000/XP/Server 2003 did it (via IPSEC.SYS (IP Security Policies), IPNAT.SYS (Windows Firewall), IPFLTDRV.SYS (Port Filtering), & TCPIP.SYS (base IP driver) worked, in a "zone defense/phalanx" like defense)...
2.) AND, how VISTA/Server 2008/Windows 7 do it now currently, using a SINGLE layer (WFP)...
----
First off, Here is HOW it worked in Windows 2000/XP/Server 2003 - using 3 discrete & different drivers AND LEVELS/LAYERS of the packet processing path they worked in:
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb878072.aspx
The Cable Guy - June 2005: TCP/IP Packet Processing Paths
====
The following components process IP packets:
IP forwarding Determines the next-hop interface and address for packets being sent or forwarded.
TCP/IP filtering Allows you to specify by IP protocol, TCP port, or UDP port, the types of traffic that are acceptable for incoming local host traffic (packets destined for the host). You can configure TCP/IP filtering on the Options tab from the advanced properties of the Internet Protocol (TCP/IP) component in the Network Connections folder.
Filter-hook driver A Windows component that uses the filter-hook API to filter incoming and outgoing IP packets. On a computer running Windows Server 2003, the filter-hook driver is Ipfltdrv.sys, a component of Routing and Remote Access. When enabled, Routing and Remote Access allows you to configure separate inbound and outbound IP packet filters for each interface using the Routing and Remote Access snap-in. Ipfltdrv.sys examines both local host and transit IP traffic (packets not destined for the host).
Firewall-hook driver A Windows component that uses the firewall-hook API to examine incoming and outgoing packets. On a computer running Windows XP, the firewall-hook driver is Ipnat.sys, which is shared by both Internet Connection Sharing
Probably someone made this obvious call already.
I can't believe how stupid some people are at Microsoft to think that any customer would put up with this.
This is truly innovative product development from Microsoft: they have managed to invent the "socialist" edition of Windows.
While investors on CNBC are crying day and night how Obama is ending capitalism by "socialist banks", "socialist healthcare", Microsoft brings in the "socialist OS".
"Where do you want to go today?" Mr. Ballmer is truly desperate or lust touch with reality. How long can he run the company with this mindset?
The anti-MS crowd is panicking big time over Windows 7. Quite funny to watch actually.
I'm sure some Windows default applications won't get counted...
I smell exploit... or lawsuit:)
What happens on quadcores, when everybody will have them ?
If you have a limit of 3 applications, it will just be very upsetting.
This isn't simply targeted at Notebooks, Its targeted at Notebooks in emerging markets. You will not be able to buy this in the "first world" most of the slashdot crowd will never see this edition.
It is designed specificaly for less robust machines that are more common in the emerging world to allow them to keep pace with the newer OS Developments from MS w/o having to invest too much in additional hardware.
I hate to be a MS Apologist on Slashdot, It feels like being Jack Thompson at E3...
But the facts are the facts, and I MS would be foolish to ignore that market.
As to whats considered a program? I imagine that it would mean items that would currently show up on the Applications Tab in Taskmangler, rather than the Processes tab. I also predict that a number of software makers are already considering hiding their application as a process.
retardation - lack of normal development of intellectual capacities
So all a developer needs to do is make it such that its a backgrounded process that still has a window (not sure how possible this is btw) and you've worked around the limit and can sell/give away apps that will run...
My Babylon
Will IE count as basic Windows tool? This will inherently give them advantage over any other browser.
Can someone confirm?
The point of an operating system is to be the thing between the applications and the hardware. Plain and simple. An OS needs to be as transparent as possible. Adding limitations to the OS as ridiculous as application limits is not only annoying, but also the OS making a nuisance of itself.
The game.
I estimate about 2 hours of the application crippling after release, then someone will post a freely downloadable hack to remove it.
Sorry, you really only get one app because your antivirus and antispyware app are the other 2. I think this will go a lot like this.
"Sorry you are running too many applications, please close an application and try again."
"Task is not responding, force quit?"
"Taskmanager can not run because you are running too many applications, please close an application and try again."
How does limiting simultaneous apps reduce the codebase or price of the OS?
If anything, it will require another layer of checks on top of a fully functional OS to artificially limit apps.
So MS has to make Win 7 cheaper. The only way to do that is to make it more limited. The only other option is to concede the market to Linux which they will never do.
They can make Win 7 cheaper by just deciding to price it cheaper. It's software and the distribution CD's don't cost that much.
The real reason they feel that they need to squeeze so much money per license is because they have a lot of divisions that are hemorrhaging money. If they jetisoned those divisions and focused on their OS and Office apps, they could afford to charge a fraction of the current rate. This isn't mearly speculation either, they managed to become so large by letting companies and OEM's lisence the OS for peanuts for years and all it did was help them grow their market share and their cash reserves. They tacitly encouraged pirating of their OS if it kept the competition down. Now that they are the only proprietary OS available to OEM's they are free to charge what they wan't.
This is just their way of trying to appear price competitive without cannibalizing their high margins.
Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
I expect that there will be several OEMs who choose not to offer the more limited editions. If people really dislike the limits, those OEMs will benefit nicely.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
As the product page explains, it is intended for the developing markets. It has the same limitations.
The new Xbox-360 2000MP will only allow you to run games that cost 2000 Microsoft Points or less!
Vincent J. Murphy
Spandex Justice
As others have pointed out, Microsoft has announced that the Windows 7 Starter Edition will be available worldwide.
However, this is still the ultimate non-story. It's only being sold to specific makers of specific extremely low-cost, low-performance hardware. Anyone buying a "real" computer will still get the "real" Windows 7.
Microsoft is providing more options, people — and you're complaining about it, FFS.
Relevant quote from Microsoft:
These engineering investments allow small notebook PCs to run any version of Windows 7, and allow customers complete flexibility to purchase a system which meets their needs. For OEMs that build lower-cost small notebook PCs, Windows 7 Starter will now be available in developed markets. For the most enhanced, full-functioning Windows experience on small notebook PCs, however, consumers will want to go with Windows 7 Home Premium, which lets you get the most out of your digital media and easily connect with other PCs.
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
I've got a netbook, which gets used heavily as an ultraportable machine. As long as you're sensible, it's fine. It's far from unusual for it to be running: ...and I'm already over the limit while very plausibly doing a single task (albeit not a typical one for a netbook, but one that is surprisingly usable from experience). I'm working on some graphics software at present - perhaps I'm checking something in Paintshop Pro or similar. I use the Windows calculator a lot (lazy I know :-) - that would suddenly become unviable.
* Visual Studio
* OpenOffice showing some documentation or notes
* Web browser
* DB program of some description, usually SQLite Admin.
Why, why, why? Anyway, as has been pointed out, plenty of apps seem to have already found ways round this. Annoy your customers in their day-to-day use and they'll find ways to stop the annoyance - if that means you're creating a group motivated to hack your security, that's just a terrible idea.
Stay out of your users' way and let them work the way they want to. If I'm daft enough to want to try to host a commercial website or want to do serious software development on a netbook, that's my problem.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
It will be interesting to see how this is actually implemented. What's to stop me from writing a single app that serves as a launchpad for an arbitrary number of programs as subservient threads. I have to assume this will be possible since Microsoft will have a hard time selling an OS that, as you say, would be unable to launch Chrome of Firefox with too many tabs open.
It's not documented. If you go by the official Microsoft documents for Win32, there is no relationship between processes. You cannot find a process parent and you cannot know enumerate process children. Theoretically a parent process would hold the child process handle in the application but that's not the same thing as just asking the O/S what your children are.
Win32 Process Functions
If you do want to get it, you have to use an unsupported call:
http://www.codeguru.com/cpp/w-p/win32/article.php/c1437
This is my sig.
It doesn't affect how much Windows 7 will cost MS. It only affects how much MS will charge. Most netbook manufacturers will not pay the Win7 regular prices because when they sell the netbook at $300 and below, an OEM license of $50 is a big cost for the manufacturer. Either MS offers Win7 Standard at a cheaper price and cut into their profitability or offer another edition, Win7 Starter. It has the 3 app limitation but it is cheaper.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
XP Starter Edition was available in 88 countries.
Vista Starter Edition was available in around 140 countries.
There's something like 190 to 230 countries total in the world (depending on who you ask), so the jump to opening to the whole world is a small and quite logical one.
So I would definately agree that this isn't newsworthy.
If a large number of people were found using a Starter Edition, now that would be newsworthy.
1 (short ton / firkin) = 89.1432354 slugs / keg
It's about market segmentation.
Let's say a normal Windows license costs $50. XP costs $15 and they want to get rid of it. Hence Windows 7 Starter Edition.
The idea is that most netbook customers won't mind the 3 app limit. Or maybe they will and they will upgrade.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
...like other OS'es from Microsoft it will be bundled with the hardware leaving no choice for the customer.
Is the guy who did Linux Genuine Advantage still available?
One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
*Limit applies to non-Microsoft(TM) applications only. Please purchase and run all the MS stuff you desire.
Void where prohibited by European Union.
Can someone please remind me why would anyone buy 3app version if you need to have more adds running? I might understand all this whining if 3app version was only version available.
This sounds like a way to sell more expensive hardware or induce people to buy new computers when they wouldn't otherwise. I'm not sure how many people they expect to replace their existing vista install with windows 7. But if their "Which Windows is Right for Me?" tool suggests the starter edition that can only run 3 apps, people might decide to just get a new machine. At the store, the computer sales guy is going to say "this one is rated for starter edition" and start explaining about how AV and IM clients will run down the 3 application count and starter edition is a piece of crap, that's upsell right there.
I'm nowhere near the actual marketing and OS edition strategies but this sounds like something MS would do. Were the myriad editions used this way in the past?
When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
1. init
2. X server
3. KDE
no...
1. Firefox
2. Pidgin
3. Mail notifier
4. fuck.
1. Firefox
2. Seamless virtualization that only counts as one application
3. profit!
It's intended to be sold at a price point comparable to a free (cost) Linux. It's intended to be an up-sell to a bigger license. It's intended to be a lighting rod on which to blame piracy for lack of sales.
The number limited to 3 just baffles me, especially after their own developer summits found that most users have an average of between 11 & 15 applications open at any one time. On netbooks with limited hardware I do understand the concept of having only a few applications open at once, but educating customers that a netbook is NOT a little laptop is a better approach that enforcing a limit. It's even more baffling that they want to introduce it to notebooks now too, considering a notebook has no technical reasons to have enforced limits.
Personally I welcome this move by Microsoft, as I do every other dumbass one which will help tip more people over the edge and away from Microsoft. Keep fighting the good fight Mr Ballmer.
I'd hate to have to use Windows like this and be forced to choose between an anti-virus, anti-spyware and firewall application just so I could surf the web and talk on Skype at the same time. On the bright side, not having all those security services filling the gaps Microsoft leave behind would make the PC snappier....for a few minutes until it gets infected.
"Targeted at notebooks, this doesn't seem like such a bad limitation..." I'm sure this has already been pointed out, but I would just like to reiterate that you are a moron.
It turns out the real reason for the 3-application limit is that there they could only spare two bits of memory for the application count.
1 Virus
2 Root Kit
3 Spy Ware
Who needs any more apps?
Artificial limitations like this seem to me to be an invitation for problems and end user frustration.
Given that this is designed for especially low-cost (and hence low-power) small notebook PCs, it may not really be an artificial limitation, but rather a valid means of managing extremely limited resources.
What is an application?
Ed Bott took it for a test drive and answered that question...
Are tool tray apps possible, or allowed?
Yes and yes. They don't count toward the 3 app limit.
What about apps that launch other apps as part of their functionality?
If they open multiple tabs (ex. Firefox, Internet Explorer) or windows (ex. Messenger), that's fine. If they launch completely separate applications, well, those would be completely separate applications.
Would Chrome be limited to two tabs? (One for the host window, two and three for the first two tabs.)
Nope.
Some other interesting details:
All in all, according to the ZDNet writer, "when I used this system as a netbook, it worked just fine".
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=844
Other users have posted this, and it gives some good information as to what is counted and what is not. Something that runs in the tray ("notification area") does not seem to count, but may when the window is launched. An example from the article is an antivirus app that runs in the tray. While in the tray, it works fine, but if you launch the main window for the application that window counts toward the limit. This means you might be able to hide applications in the tray using TrayIt or something, but only 3 can be unhidden at a time.
Said, "It's just like dice but it's got more sides And it tells me who lives and who dies"
Ah, you said what i was wondering.
Define "application" first and then we'll talk, Mr. Microsoft...
I can't even figure out who thought the market would like this....
The truth is, most private users will do what they've done for the past 20 years, and that is one of these two options: use the version of Windows that comes with the computer, or use a pirated version. Why do you think Conficker was such a big deal? Microsoft pushed out a fix for that last year.
Selling a "Starter" version has only one purpose: trick the shareholders into thinking that Microsoft has a plan to get people who would otherwise pirate their OS on a path to buy their OS. It's not going to happen. Even casual PC users don't want to use a crippled operating system because they don't trust that it will do what they think they might need it to do.
Oh well. The only way Microsoft will get their market share back is if they essentially adopt Linux's model in regards to their operating system, and rip off Apple's "store" style system for purchasing or obtaining software. With Ballmer at the helm, fat chance. Personally, I'd like to see three or more players in the OS game running at their best in order to drive competition, but what you really have is one paranoid, xenophobic player that pointlessly handicaps itself constantly (Apple), one amorphous, disassociated player that lives in its own little world (Linux), and a rotting corpse in a business suit being propped up by greedy investors (Microsoft). For something as important as an operating system, there should be stronger players at the top than this.
Paul Thurrot made a few test a while back:
Firefox (any number of windows/tabs that derives from it) = 1 application.
Any explorer derived window (Internet Explorer included) don't count.
Many built-in apps don't count. (calculator, notepad...)
Daemons (background/taskbar apps) usually don't count.
It seems there is both a white list of "free apps" and a scheme to define if a new process is a part of an existing app.
Some manufacturer leaked that Windows XP cost around $15 per netbook. The point would be that "Windows 7, crippled edition" would be sold very cheap, so manufacturers are happy, and it's still windows, so consumers that want to run Office 2007 are happy.
Another thing to consider is that if you want to ship a netbook with Ubuntu (free) that plays videos/music, you'll (at least in europe) have to licence codecs. At the official store (http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=244) , A/V codec for Ubuntu cost $36, (only audio codec are sold for $26).
Windows XP includes those codecs (except mpeg2/h264)
Windows 7 include them all (including encoding)
So, from a manufacturer point of view, Linux may be as expensive as Windows, with the added fear that consumer will complain because they wan't install their favorite messenger.
I have a media player, an internet browser, an IM client AND my e-mail application open AT THE SAME TIME!!!!
I'M A POWER USER!!!!!!!!
Agreed. Plus, others such as Paul Thurott have played with this edition and the limit is really not a real-world barrier. Programs that come with Windows don't count against it. Services don't count. Background tasks started via the Startup folder don't count. Only non-OS foreground apps count. In the context of a netbook with 1GB memory and too-small a screen for much simultaneous window viewing, testers report they've rarely had the OS actually block them in real-world use.
..."OS X ready!"
There's no OS installed, so one could install Linux or even Windows. But that's in the smaller print in the advertisement.
As it stands, all one needs to install OS X on almost any netbook is a DVD drive, an OS X DVD and some software on a flashdrive. And if I'm not mistaken, there are now flashstick only OS X installers, with a patched/hacked version of OS X included on the stick.
As for the "limitations" of ONLY 2GB. My Mac, a 1.42GHZ G4 Dual Processor MDD/FW800 frequently has 10 or more apps running at once, with, I must say, only the slightest observable slowdown in some processor intensive apps. So this whole Windows 7 only 3 apps at a time thing is amazingly stupid.
Sure, most folks only need a few apps at a time on a netbook, but I can easily see situations where having email, browser, graphics editor, text editor, streaming audio, P2P, Skype, etc all going at once could be not at all out of the ordinary. FSM knows that's what's on my Mac right now.
Really, IMHO, the only limitation I see in a netbook is the drive capacity. If they can get 160GB SSD in a netbook capable of running OS X for approx. US$500, I think that would be a very popular and best selling computer.
Guaranteed! This comment 100% Anthrax free!
It's just Microsoft shooting itself in the foot again. Why the surprise?
So does this mean that Windows 7 is so loaded down with crap that they just don't think your 4GB of RAM and dual-core CPU can handle more than three apps at once? I might believe that argument.
I hope viruses and spyware don't count as apps though or people won't be able to use their computer. Oh yeh - most can't anyway.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Too slow for MIDs even. No cache, or very little and very primitive. No floating point. Egads! Let's just use a 386 !! Long battery life comes from more than just a 1 W processor; the total system draw is going to be 5W give or take, and 20% is not much when things run 100 plus percent slower than a lowly atom. And who builds apps for ARMs? Not many. Fringe is all this is and all it would ever be.
Mod me up! Mod me down! Put just mod meeeee!!
Then again, if you get infected, and the malware spawns 3 applications, you wont be able to run whatever application you are trying to use to fix it.
Said, "It's just like dice but it's got more sides And it tells me who lives and who dies"
Firewall, Anti-virus, Anti-spyware
Sounds just right...oh wait.....
Apple really isnt fond on copying and pasting.. Good luck doing research and typing it up at the same time. Hope you got good memory!
MS-DOS with EMM386, MSCDEX.EXE, and whatever you needed. Worked great back then.
It will be better to purchase from an owner who is a good farmer and a good builder.
Artificial limits for artificial price points
Can you imagine another company doing this?
FPS Starter Edition - 3 weapon limit
Word Processor Starter Edition - 3 page limit per document
Spreadsheet Starter Edition - 3 formula limit
UML Modeling - 3 use case limit
- - - - - - - - - - -
I am a programmer. I am paid to produce syntax not grammar. Deal with it.
"this doesn't seem like such a bad limitation"
Maybe not, but it means I'm never, ever going to buy a netbook with Windows 7 on it. Or recommend anyone else do so either.
I've already heard that anti-virus software is one of the processes getting a pass on the 3 app limit. There really is way too little attention being given to the required anti-virus software this Windows OS is going to need. Both Windows 98 and Windows XP slow down noticeably after installing anti-virus and firewalling and that's on full blown desktop computers yet nothing I've seen so far regarding Windows 7 performance on netbooks discusses this issue. And for some reason, there is very little data out there on Windows 7 performance on the netbook. Way too much Microsoft PR on it but that's mostly it.
Maybe the 3 application limit and restricted process limits are their way of getting around the anti-virus software requirement? It's tougher to run a hidden botnet process when one of the users 3 applications shuts down because of the 3 app limit.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
So I take it that they are keeping the '1GB' of RAM requirement that vista claimed? Even though it took over 600MB just to run. Vista ended up practically worthless on all of those notebooks and end-users had to wade through a plethora of online forums just to 'downgrade' to WinXP since the manufacturers all claimed that the laptops did not support that OS. WinXP was an upgrade if you ask me. Lets just hope that we don't get a bunch of 1GB Win7 laptops flooding the market. This three app limitation seems like their (terrible) answer to that issue to me.
1. Malware/Virus Removal Tool 2. Windows Updater 3. VirtualBox running Windows XP
CreateRemoteThread, for the longest time the love child of malware writers everywhere, will finally become essential for benign applications. explorer.exe can be hijacked to run more than just malware, I tell you! :)
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
What brilliance, they lock out the use of the 2nd most used browser at the same time. Those Redmond people are always coming up with good ideas. ;-)
It's really looking like Windows 7 on these little devices is really just an exercise in cramming an elephant into a VW beetle. Even if you can do it, it no longer is really good at getting you anywhere.
My guess is that like the OLPC, they are more interested in stopping the growth or interest in this market segment than they are at enabling it. Anything below the cost of a desktop PC costs them money because Linux is there for the vendors if Microsoft doesn't spend $$$ enticing them to use Windows. So now that Microsoft has purchased up a good portion of the netbook suppliers, giving customers of those devices a constricted experience will go a long way to spread the word that netbooks are limited and useless toys. At least for Windows users and that is currently the majority of the market. Again, because they purchased the preloading of Windows XP and soon Windows 7.
They have a history of destroying markets to protect their desktop market share so look for a major PR campaign in this segment. My guess is that their control of some press people will also result in some major bashing of the ARM devices soon to hit the shelves. It should prove interesting to watch.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
AND - You can't move the mouse too fast, because CPU usage will sky rocket.
TOP DSLR Cameras Reviews of the top DSLRs
This means you might be able to hide applications in the tray using TrayIt or something, but only 3 can be unhidden at a time.
Or, most likely, this feature will end up just like every other artificial limitation: random groups of highly trained and motivated people will compete to see who can fix it first. And, like always, they will succeed within a day of release.
As someone in a developing country, I can tell you, people here aren't interested in crippled software. Lacking money, they will simply pirate the full version, stick with XP or in rare cases switch to Linux. All it takes is one person with broadband, and everyone here will have the full version within weeks.
Don't know why giving crippled versions to the 3rd world makes sense to microsoft. Before, you'd import buy a laptop which includes the price of the OS and leave it at that. That is if you can afford a PC at all.
I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
Like the Universal Netbook Installer? Plug in your thumb drive, select a linux distro, and the program downloads the image, and copies it to your usb stick. Reboot your computer, and install.
This is exactly what I was talking about, thank you
No sig for the moment.
"You can open as many windows as you want from a single program. So if you want to open 15 tabs in your browser, six images in your photo-editing program, and a couple of instant messenger windows, you can do it."
In addition, some of the things youâ(TM)re likely to do every day on a netbook donâ(TM)t count against the three-app limit at all:
* Windows Explorer windows donâ(TM)t count. So you can open as many file folders as you want and even preview the contents of individual files without having any of those processes counted against your limit.
* Basic Windows tools donâ(TM)t trigger the limit. You can run a Command Prompt window or open Task Manager even if you already have three programs open.
* Most Control Panel applets donâ(TM)t count either. If you need to check your network settings or change to a different power management scheme or install a new Bluetooth device, you can do that anytime, regardless of what else is running.
* Program installers run without triggering the limit. I just used Internet Explorer to download and install Google Chrome, even with three programs already open. No problem. [Update: Although Microsoft claims installers are exempt from the three-program limit, this appears to be untrue, at least in the beta I looked at. Based on some comments, I just tried to run a dozen or so installers with three programs already open. Each one failed.]
* Desktop gadgets are free, too. Iâ(TM)ve got the Pandora playback gadget running on the Windows 7 desktop and have no trouble opening three full-featured programs as well.
* Some system utilities get to bypass the three-app limit. The ClipMate utility, for instance, starts automatically and places itself in the system tray. I was able to pop up its main window and not trigger a too-many-apps warning.
* Antivirus programs that run as a system service donâ(TM)t count. I installed Sunbelt Softwareâ(TM)s excellent VIPRE antivirus/antispyware suite on this system. The program icon showed up in the system tray and it alerted me several times about potentially suspicious events. I was able to right-click that icon and use its menu to scan the system for viruses and check for updated virus definitions without a problem, even with three programs open. (Trying to open VIPREâ(TM)s main program window, however, triggered a warning that I needed to close something else first.)
In short, when I used this system as a netbook, it worked just fine." -- Ed Bott
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=844&tag=nl.e539
Did I miss something, are notebooks getting slower? I run 5-8 apps, such as dreamweaver, photoshop, filezilla, thunderbird, IE, and firefox on my laptop all the time and it's a year old!
What's the point of this limit exactly?
The original intent of Starter Edition was to be an ultra-cheap version to combat piracy in "undeveloped" nations. Now, it is being pushed worldwide to be an ultra-cheap version for netbook computers so that manufacturers are less inclined to use linux. They may say the limits are because the hardware is weaker, but in that case they should have released a low-footprint version instead of crippling the user. Granted, a low-footprint version would not include unnecessary services and would be crippled in a sense, but the user should be able to decide how many simultaneous apps they want to run. There is some stripped down version of XP that came out a while back that was called something like "Windows Essentials for Legacy Computers". I'm pretty sure that is more in line with a low-footprint version than the "Starter Edition".
A better car analogy would be a cheap van with 10 seats but it will not allow more than 3 passengers. If you pay to upgrade(just removes the limiter[3 app limit], adds a DVD player[Media Center], and some decorations[Aero glass]), you can have as many passengers as you can fit.
Said, "It's just like dice but it's got more sides And it tells me who lives and who dies"
I thought it was because stupid people still think this is for netbooks.
Starter edition is not going to be sold in the US or anywhere else that would buy home basic.
i agree. What do they consider an app. Does this mean that antivirus and webcam software and email client would be the only thing running at once. You would have to close one to operate another.
What the hell defines a application? Windows runs tons of background apps all the time. Sounds like they are really screwing around with people.
Then again I am sure that someone will find a registry hack the second that win7 comes out to disable the 3 app limit.
MS is just plain stupid and I don't think they have a clue about what the common person really wants from a PC. If they did they would not be giving us such shit to work with.
I will admit that win7 is very nice and runs smooth. I have been on beta 7000 since it has come out and have not had any problems. I did have to eliminate some stuff still like the UAC and message boxes saying my computer isn't secure because I don't have a virus software.
Is an application an window, and single exe?
Parent process?
How is an application defined?
I am sure we can get around this legally.
The Starter Edition is for raw beginners running Windows on low end OEM systems.
It is not an OS for the geek's dream machine - the dual-core Atom netbook with 2 GB RAM and 16 GB of Flash.
Win SE has in the past been localized down to the level of native language tutorials on how to use a mouse.
You can open as many windows as you want from a single program. So if you want to open 15 tabs in your browser, six images in your photo-editing program, and a couple of instant messenger windows, you can do it.
Windows Explorer windows don't count. So you can open as many file folders as you want
Basic Windows tools don't trigger the limit. You can run a Command Prompt window or open Task Manager even if you already have three programs open.
Most Control Panel applets don't count either.
Desktop gadgets...and some system utilities get to bypass the three-app limit.
Antivirus programs that run as a system service don't count.
Living within the limits of Windows 7 Starter Edition
Multimedia messaging over the major networks, driver availability, P2P TV, not having to use try and wine every time a cool new program comes out, not having to wait for 'the repositories' to be updated to get the latest software, proper technical support from hardware/software suppliers, being able to run things like Visual Studio, using more than one sound application at a time... The list goes on.
I guess this will be the nirvana for trojan developers. People didn't get what registry is so they didn't jump to their fake registry cleaner trojans.
In starter case, everyone will get effected so it will be easy to trick them to install World's biggest impact having trojan with a simple ''Install this to have more than 3 applications running''.
MS actually looks for trouble, as usual.
People are acting as if shareware is a new concept...
"Click here to enter your credit card number and unlock the full features of this software, err, OS."
I can't wait to see all of the virus ridden websites luring people by advertising a solution to the the Windows 7 3 application "bug" when this thing is rolled out to the computer illiterate public. AWESOME.
Agree or not or hate iPhone enough to reject a free one like me, Apple's reasons to disallow multitasking on iPhone is very, very different and there is nothing there to compare to MS Starter Edition.
iPhone is a phone, running a very stripped down OS X with really minimal set of frameworks and the customer of iPhone doesn't want multi tasking, they want huge battery life and general speed. Apple claims they can't achieve it with actual multi tasking, background apps. It is their choice and whoever buys iPhone accepts it.
However, I guess some little monkey at MS had this neat idea and thought they can use iPhone as reference.
Microsoft did this with Windows XP and Windows Vista, too. These are targeted at emerging markets as a low-cost alternative to a full-blown edition of Windows. These are NOT targeted towards consumers in Western/developed markets.
It's not a bold move, it's not targeted at notebooks, and it's not new. This article is bullshit.
Screw the rules, I have green hair!
Not that standard compliant...
A miserable little pile of secrets!
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
But above post is correct. The starter edition is for netbooks and other really limited hardware where a lite OS should be used.
I would rather have a lite OS that could run as many apps as I want, well that could run on the hardware I am running. But that is my needs, not the needs of others.
I was thinking that this starter edition might make an ok windows based PVR system OS. I know people that do not want OSX or linux. A small light windows OS running on hardware of my choosing would be a good thing. I have a feeling that we in the US will not be able to get this to put on our own hardware.
Since IE is part of the OS, (like windows explorer) I guess it won't count as an app. But if you use firefox, you get -1 program you can run ?
Will we see another 10+ years lawsuit that will result with a slap on the wrist ?
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
IE is a basic windows tool.
Why do you not believe them?
Why do you believe that they don't believe themselves?
You're right about Applications but wrong about Chrome and IE8's process architecture.
Both Chrome and IE8 use one process per tab for low numbers of tabs. IE8 additionally uses a single overarching "frame" process also to coordinate it all. Chrome additionally uses a single process to run plugins.
Chrome stops creating new processes at about 20 and then round-robins between them (or maybe not round-robin but something of the sort). IE8 grows to 4 processes and then scales up based on your usage and hardware capabilities. IE8 will also do essentially a binary search (although I think it's a factor of ~5 or so rather than truly binary) when it recovers after a process crashes, spawning a bunch more processes. Both are capable of launching one more process in a different integrity level (Low vs. User) if the situation calls for it.
Which does then make it news.
This is new: Windows 7 will have a starter edition.
This creates a user incentive to use one mother-of application from Microsoft for everything possible. By dividing things up into 3 essential Apps, they could lock out third party apps completely.
Squirrel!
... has this not already been covered multiple times?
Perhaps I'm confusing slashdot with other news sites... in any case, if the starter edition is cheap enough - it isn't a bad move for people who don't do anything besides check their email, type up letters, and websurf.
Grandma and grandpa would probably be more than happy to dish out $50 - 75 for a 3-application limited OS than $200 for something that is almost as barebone and castrated.
Thanks for the info. I was basing my info for IE8 off of something I read back when it was announced that they were changing the architecture, and I distinctly remember that they said threads and not processes. Separate processes makes more sense, so I always thought it was pretty strange, but never cared enough about IE to check.
Said, "It's just like dice but it's got more sides And it tells me who lives and who dies"
I've got a netbook, which gets used heavily as an ultraportable machine. As long as you're sensible, it's fine. It's far from unusual for it to be running: ...
* Visual Studio
* OpenOffice showing some documentation or notes
* Web browser
* DB program of some description, usually SQLite Admin.
The geek frames everything in terms of his own needs and values.
Win SE is an OS for the raw beginner.
It is an OEM product for the third-world.
Localized down to native language tutorials on how to use a mouse.
It runs on the lowest of low end hardware.
We are not talking about an Atom netbook with a gig of RAM and a 160 GB HDD.
apple had the 1 app limit many years ago MultiFinder ended that.
to sum up: if it runs exclusively in the tray, it doesn't count. If it's a single app but multiple windows (i.e. 3 Word/OOo documents), it counts as a single process. Explorer windows, task manager, and Installshield/MSI/Nullsoft/Wise Installers don't count at all.
WoWmatrix
Firefox
WoW
*dusts off hands*
Crud....now I couldn't run Vent. -sigh-
What about softwares that run as a service (like AutoDesk license servers)? Does that count as an app?
Or you can use the edition that comes with your computer. Take a census of Vista users: do any of them use Home Basic? 'Course not, as it doesn't come with any computer I've ever seen. They all come with Home Premium. Similarly, most people won't buy an upgrade to Windows 7; they'll wait until it comes with their new computer. And what comes with their computer won't be Starter edition.
I would use it for my netbook that I use for my GPS and mobile internet browser. Run the GPS software while traveling. Bring up the browser to check email. Bring up word to type a letter.. etc. It's only a problem for those who are doing a lot of background processing tasks and really, you wouldn't want to do that on a netbook anyway. I rarely have more than one or two 'applications' open at a time. Everyone here seems to be focusing on the fact that you can't leave your applications idling in the background while working with another one. The more applications that I am working with at once, the less productive I become.
However, that being said, constantly opening and closing applications will have an impact on battery life. MS has done so much work with power management and hybernation tech lately, I can't help but think they are going to hurt the power consumption of the netbooks this way. So for those of you who think MS is doing this for power conservation, IMHO you are wrong.
The largest cost to any computer is the software. Hardware is dirt cheap, and really, if you are buying a specific piece of hardware for a specific purpose (read: not general use) this makes absolutely 100% sense. In the end you are getting all the advantages of closed-source without the cost. And I can live with the one disadvantage.
I'm trying to understand how this 3 app limit is any different from Vista Ultimate.
Why just the other day I tried to open a 4th app (it was actually a comment thread on /.), and I got a blue scr^NO CARRIER
"however it is a bold move from Microsoft, and it will be interesting to see how the operating system fails."
There - fixed that for you
7 minute abs. "What if someone comes out with 6 minute abs?"
7 MINUTE ABS.
This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard or seen. This will go down as one of the most inane things the MS has done, and they've done a lot.
Dibs on the hack for this coming out before 7 is released.
And what OS would you run in that? Windows 7 Home Basic, Home Premium? If you have a license for those, why run starter edition instead on installing that as the primary OS? If you are going to pirate a copy, why not just install the pirated copy as the primary OS? Running an OS inside an OS on a netbook is too much overhead for too little benefit.
Here in 2009, we have apps!
it is a bold move from Microsoft, and it will be interesting to see how the operating system fails
Fixed that for ya'.
-Nano.
The amount of ignorance in this thread is astounding. MS has had starter editions of Windows with these limitations at least as far back as XP. They're intended for emerging markets, and are not sold in the U.S. The hardware that this is intended for really doesn't support more than about 3 apps at a time (yeah yeah, i7 + 24GB of memory joke goes here). Seriously though, this shouldn't be news to anybody.
"How the operating system sells"? I'll tell you how it will sell. It will sell in keeping with the way a monopoly sells all its products. Don't be so blind as to think that the free market plays a role.
Any more than 3 apps and you'll get a blue screen.
However once you have your anti-virus software which you will need then you're really only left with 2 apps. If you have spyware software too then you're left with one app. Genius!
Or make one application that allows other programs to spawn windows inside of it. Each inner-window would have a background process thus not an *application* and the outer-window would then become you single-application window manager.
"Starter Edition version of Windows 7 will only allow the user to run 3 applications at once."
This is not news. Besides, you won't find it at your local computer store. It's intended for developing markets only, just like XP starter.
BWAHAHAHAHA!!!
When's the last time you saw ANY computer manufactures stand up to MS in any way?!?
Just my opinion and I'm sure I'll get modded down for this, but I've never found a need to keep a 3rd party app running although I'm sure there are lots of folks who might needs such flexibility. I typically launch it, do what I need to do, and close it. If the app is properly written and is the type of app that needs to retain session data, then it simply saves the state it's in and loads the state back when it's relaunched.
For typical use, I use e-mail, occasionally IM, and mostly SMS or simple phone functions. For IM it's simply forwarded to my phone via SMS which I can reply to directly or I can launch AIM if I want to conference in other folks or whatnot.
E-Mail doesn't have to be running as it checks at intervals. System apps will run in the background and are not restricted to a single app at a time. For instance my browser 'tabs' are saved so when I come back they are still there. I just don't really see the need to leave a 3rd party app running.
I get about 3-4 days of standby and about 3.5 hours of constant 'use' on the iPhone. I have no idea how that stacks up against current smart phones. Your mileage may vary...
Finally Microsoft is limiting users to only three viruses.
I can see some actual value from this. For low powered netbooks this wont be much of a concern since most net books are used for... wait for it... the internet!. Which would be your Internet Explorer(God Forbid), your Mail and your messenger. This will help users to utilize their system resources properly without biatching to tech support that their computer is slow because they have 1Gb ram, and a 5Gb page file because they never close anything.
Where I can see the problem, and Microsoft will screw their own products royally because most applications aren't just one application. For example, Your Outlook while setup to use Word as its mail client launches two apps, Word and Outlook. If you pull up your address book this is a third app, now your stuck... Another example is Internet Explorer while browsing one tab that has a PDF and another that has Flash, or a WMV/Quicktime plug-in. These could easily be considered seperate apps if the app counter doesn't take in to account processes launched from other processes.
This will do two things that I can see, break apps that don't use proper threading and parent/child processes where by each app launched from another app is considered to be part of the first app, or force programmers to change the way they program.
Should be interesting none-the-less
Just run a Virtual Machine in seamless mode!
MS have said this is for netbooks in developed markets.
Brad Brooks, corporate VP for Windows Consumer Product Marketing said "These engineering investments allow small notebook PCs to run any version of Windows 7, and allow customers complete flexibility to purchase a system which meets their needs. For OEMs that build lower-cost small notebook PCs, Windows 7 Starter will now be available in developed markets," he added. Windows 7 Starter is a light-weight version of the OS without the fancy interface, and is also limited to having three applications open at once (perhaps in an effort to prevent the system from getting bogged down).
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/windows-7-netbooks-xp-vista,6974.html
to go on the same kind of low-end desktops Vista Basic was targeted at in the past? If so, people WILL notice the reduced functionality and M$'s demand for money to make it possible for a user to run as many apps as he could with Windows 98. The "the average user uses two apps at a time" probably refers to major applications, not low-footprint utility programs. (we can hope that this doesn't include programs continuously running in background, e.g. antivirus + malware scanner)
Entertaining would be if a user paid for the upgrade and Win7's high-end version locked up his computer.
I can afford to laugh about this, I'm running Debian and I run XP in Virtualbox when I need to. The average computer buyer next year won't find this funny at all.
I wonder how many people who know this are going to be shorting M$ stock as of when Win7 releases.
Win7 could have saved M$.
Tech Public Policy stuff
This is just to get people used to lease their computing OS.
And its not news, it was announced long ago.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
If you live in the US, it may as well be a myth. No sane manufacturer is going to install this on their machines. Imagine the number of support calls it alone would generate. Besides, netbooks are more than capable of running Windows 7 + Aero.
Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
I live in Guatemala, Central America. Vista Starter is sold here because I am in a low income market. As far as I remember last time I used Vista Starter, apps on the tray do not count. I could open OpenOffice, Firefox and Calculator at the same time, with multiple documents opened inside OO and FF. On the tray there was Avast Antivirus. I suppose only apps on the taskbar count as such.
No long before we can not mix dress from brand X and Y.
You need a specialized software to assist your daily wardrobe project.
There was an updated posted and the author found that installers can trigger the limit.
Have to wonder just how much installing a user of such a limited machine would be doing. But, Murphy obliges, so it would probably become a problem at the worst possible time. Closing applications (web browser, document viewer, etc.) that you have open to help you make the right choices in the installation would be a huge PITA.
I'd make a guess that 'compliant' installers won't trigger the limit, but the details of which installers the author tried are absent.
I believe you are confused on the difference between processes and applications. One application may spawn one or more processes.
The only problem I see is how Microsoft will combat someone from writing an ultra thin virtual machine that allows the user to run multiple applications under the vm application.
but i get java script error every time it try to use them
Error on page.
Error: 'D2' is null or not an object :(
Took me 657 comments to stop laughing. No...no I'm laughing again..
What you are predicting is, in fact, already happening. Windows XP and Vista both have 'starter editions' with a 3-application limit coming bundled on netbooks now in parts of Southeast Asia, and probably other places. A coworker recently bought one. She asked me to help her set it up, and I ran into the 3-app limitation right away while working on installing and setting up several apps at once. It will frustrate you. you're also limited to a lower resolution, and a windows watermark stays on your screen even when you have a fullscreen app running!
These versions of Windows are designed to discourage piracy in places where it is prevalent by making a legal option affordable. What actually happens, though, is that people are given the impression that actually paying for Windows will give them an inferior and frustrating product - so they promptly install a pirated version. According to wikipedia, this has actually lead to increased piracy in the areas starter editions are released. I'm shocked they are still going this direction with windows 7! ...and back to my coworker's netbook: within a month it developed a problem that caused an error message on boot that said the machine was in an 'unsupported state', and then it would restart - creating a power-cycling loop and never actually booting. I installed Fedora 10 off a liveUSB I always have handy, in the free space on their drive, so if Windows ever does get fixed, they can dual-boot. but once I set up Fedora with Compiz and made the windows dirs auto-mount so they could access them, they haven't seemed to be very interested in fixing Windows for some reason... I may download the Ubuntu netbook remix for them to try, which would be better suited for their hardware, but either way, to me this looks like the way to go. and Microsoft can dig its own grave in the OS department if they want, but netbook owners certainly have other options available.
-dan, still an anonymous coward for some reason
My specs:
1.2 Ghz Intel Celeron
512 MB RAM
32 MB Intel Onboard Graphics
Windows XP Professional
Right now I'm running Firefox, Pidgin, Winamp, Sophos Anti-virus with the CPU idling at around 5%. I can, and do, run Photoshop CS2 frequently while with these other programs running. Many of these new netbooks have much better specs than my computer, so trust me, it's not a matter of resource management. It is a concerted effort by Microsoft to squeeze as much money out of the market as possible.
What a peculiar idea; I have a hard time imgining this being well received by the public. My wife only uses Windows, bless her, and the way she uses a computer means that she opens loads of programs - to her they are all just "windows", and she doesn't really take in the fact that they represent different programs. This lack of understanding is of course something that Microsoft in particular have worked hard to produce, and I can see that coming back to haunt them now, if they go forward with this idea. People like my beloved spouse will e very upset when they find they can't keep opening new "windows" - not least because it will be very frustrating that you can open windows that are served by the same program, but not if they come from others. It will simply look like the system's behaviour is unpredictable and thus unreliable.
Are you in third world? Have you seen any Windows Starter deployed here? Pretty much the standard is WinXP Pro sp2. Unless you buy a crap laptop from HP and you discover that your vista starter experience in 512 Mb of ram it's just an agony and go back to the reseller, curse him and demand that Win XP Sp2 is installed ASAP.
It's the same as the first Linux eeePC's here, most people just demanded to the reseller to install Win XP because the "new Windows is dumber" I had to listen to that yesterday and see the Linux partition blown away by the WinXP install. WinXP = P.C. as in personal computer.
People buying Win 7 in a netbook and getting frustrated with it is just going to upgrade to XP, it's sad that Asus could not make a decent distro for the eeePC, Canonical should talk with them SOON!
People in third world also get very pissed off when they discover that they have been buying a cripple version of something, what?! do we have less neurons? Or think the damn PC is some sort of magical god send apparatus? Way to go MS! Nobody here would buy crap when they can get the real deal for under $5 USD just outside the place you bought the PC. Lol you can just buy a beer to the pirate dude and get XP installed for "free" in a near coffee shop.
What about "minimize to tray" software?
I have at least 3 normal applications minimized to tray using a 3rd party tool most of the time here.
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Just install a some VM with XP or Vista on it, and run as many programs as you want. It's just one application...
If it's intended for developing countries, I suspect piracy (or Linux) will win out.
So obviously, all we need is a pirate version of Linux to win the desktop.
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
Uhm, well, if you consider Explorer an application or the fact that Chrome has as many processes running as many tabs you have opened, there's not plenty of room for your Yahoo Messenger, for instance.
Many of these new netbooks have much better specs than my computer...
And those are not the netbooks that this edition is targeted at.
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
What about "minimize to tray" software?
I have at least 3 normal applications minimized to tray using a 3rd party tool most of the time here.
Not sure how it work with your third-party tool, but the article does say that some "minimize to tray" utilities avoid the limit (ClipMate is mentioned specifically).
Whatever the case, it sounds like you're not the target market for this edition anyway.
It's not like Microsoft is saying "everyone should only use three applications". They're saying "in addition to all the other editions of Windows 7, we also have one for people who buy really inexpensive, low-power systems to do simple tasks like write emails and surf the web".
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
I wanted to say something but I forgot after checking my other open apps...
This OS is suppose to be better than Vista? You're kidding right?
If I can't run my web browser, my email client, my music player, and half of the apps from an office suite at the same time, the computer is useless to me. Let's see... at minimum that's 4 apps - oops!
Not to mention all of the misc. crap that runs in the background on a modern machine. Microsoft - wtf?
Why is this not "such a bad limitation"? Simply because you're not expected to fully utilize a netbook?
Why would you just assume it can't do much and then limit it accordingly? This is me using my netbook, and I don't even have a swap file. http://plaza.ufl.edu/zach256/3app.png
Because we all know that by controlling the number of apps, we can control how much memory is used.
expandfairuse.org
Wow, every single one of your contrived scenarios was already considered, and according to Ed Bott (who's actually USED the thing) you are wrong on all counts. It takes a special kind of awesome to be 100% wrong all the time.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
That IS a very LONG and irrelevant POST to this SUBJECT.
WHAT the FUCK are you TALKING about?
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
"That IS a very LONG and irrelevant POST to this SUBJECT." - by Kalriath (849904) * on Wednesday April 22, @06:01PM (#27680017)
NO, it's QUITE relevant (Windows IS the topic, you know), & especially in response to the person whom I quoted, from the post parent to my own, here:
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"Why are they deliberately fucking up their OS?" - by Jurily (900488) on Tuesday April 21, @10:58AM (#27660585)
(From here -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1206409&threshold=1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=27660585 )
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AND yes - That's the parent post & statement content from it that I had responded to from it, quoted above, and I am on topic in response. This IS about Windows, you know... SO - Learn to read please (& that means people I quote's words as well)... thanks.
(To that statement of his? Sure, I agreed w/ the quoted person above, & about 2 things in Windows VISTA, Server 2008, & Windows 7 may need some revision (certainly on 1, regarding the HOSTS file, & the other may be debateable (nevertheless, still worth looking into)).
APK
what constitutes an "application"- I do audio and have a ton of plugins running that have their own executables (mainly vsti's) does this mean I can only run the host and 2 of them? what about when I am doing graphics and run bridged adobe apps? what if I am running 2 apps and suddenly need to view a help file do I need to close the app just to run a chm?
They keep doing this crap, and too many people keep buying into it, thus they continue it.
If you only use XP and do not like Vista or Windows 7, what are you going to do when it is officially discontinued?
The idea of setting price points based on limitations like this is so old school its ancient.