Goodness gracious.... Here's a post that only the brave dare answer.:)
Ok, I'll take a shot and everyone else can dogpile me for all the stuff I leave out and get wrong.
If you could get a complete distribution in a single file, it would be a pretty huge file. You can probably get a disk image via FTP of most distributions (Red Hat, Debian, Slackware, etc.) Burn the image to CD-ROMs or copy it to an NFS mount and you're set.
If I Remember Correctly, in many cases it's also possible to boot off an install floppy and do your install via FTP from the distributor's site.
I suspect this post may result in several, "just buy/order CDs" responses. Honestly, I have to agree. A CD distro is a cheap/fast/easy way to get started. At the very least, it gets you a working OS quickly. It also comes in handy when a friend wants to install Linux, too.;)
Personally, I usually install a scratch system from CDs, recompile the kernel with my networking and hardware options, then start downloading the latest kernel, utilities, etc. This way, I'm able to work with the system while I'm updating it.
This advice is solely based on my humble experience, so take it for what it's worth. Do have fun, though.
I really like the idea of more critical software consumers. I want to see people actually READING their license agreements. It would put the biggest grin on my face to see someone read an agreement and say, "No way am I agreeing to that. Back to the store you go."
I would also love to see more people actively looking for better software. "Better" is a subjective term, though. Ease-of-use might be the most important thing to someone while reliablity might be more important to someone else. Either way, anything is an improvement over the current "take what they give you" mentality. It will be a great day when more computer users say, "Ok XYZProgram, you have crashed on me for the last time. I'm going to find something better."
I question the author's points about ease-of-use. Granted, there is always room for improvement here, but computers have become REAL easy to use these days. Some of the people who complain that their computer isn't as easy to use as their toaster seem to forget that the computer does a lot more than the toaster. Perhaps this is why some pundits are predicting the rise of set-tops and special-purpose embedded systems -- systems that trade flexibility for simplicity.
The article says that they evaluated several different operating systems. Also, it would seem that developing a flight simulator would be a costly proposition. I think the cost of OS licensing would be a fairly small percentage of the whole.
I'm really not trying to stand up and say, "See how great Linux is?" I titled the post "Impressive" because, well, _I_ was impressed when I read the article. (It was also a nod to Darth Vader in ESB)
No, I don't know the first thing about commercial flight simulators. All of my assumptions could be completely wrong. I would love for someone who knows something about this stuff to correct me, so I'll know if this really IS impressive.
Finally, despite what one moderator thinks, this was not meant as a troll. I was genuinely impressed that Linux would be chosen for such a task. I understand that probably no one else is interested in whether or not I'm impressed. I'm also sure that slashdot would be no worse off if I kept my little opinions and comments to myself.
I apologize if the original post was troll-like, but I promise that it was not my intent. You can tell when I'm trolling, because I'll log in as Anonymous Coward.;)
Here is a company that probably could/would use ANY operating system they wanted. They apparently did some real comparisons and chose a free operating system.
-- This part of my post left blank for note-taking --
An Active X component is really just a library. You must specifically reference an Active X component in the code of the calling program. There is no standalone entry point that allows execution of an Active X component (no main() ).
I can _possibly_ see an Active X Gecko component being released under an LGPL. I suspect, though, that the Gecko Active X component is the Gecko code with the required Active X entry points added. If the internal Gecko code is already GPL, I don't think you can release such a component under LGPL.
FWIW, I think a Gecko component is one of the coolest ideas I've heard in a while.
Overall, I don't have a problem with third-party clean-room Java VMs and compilers.
What I DO worry about is compatibility. It's bad enough now that people joke about "write once, test everywhere". Introducing a bunch of "mostly" compatible VMs negates a big reason for using Java. I fear a support nightmare for developers trying to write Java applications ("Ok, it works fine under the Sun and Blackdown VMs, but it barfs on the HP").
I don't have much faith in the market weeding out incompatible VMs in this case. It seems more likely that the work will fall on the developers to make sure that their code runs even on bad VMs. It's too easy to say, "Well, PCBonehead Magazine says the Caffeine Overdose Java VM is the fastest. If your stuff doesn't work on it, that's YOUR problem."
IMHO, forums like slashdot are BETTER than journalism:
1) They allow relatively unfiltered feedback from the readers (vs. a few select letters that make it to the OpEd section of the newspaper).
2) There is no pretense that slashdot is unbiased. To me, this is preferable to supposedly unbiased journalism that subtlely reflects the journalist's own opinions. Selective reporting and coloring of facts is more insidious than simply saying, "Hey, we like *BSD and Linux around here."
3) Generally, the people delivering and commenting on the information know what they are talking about. In the slashdot forum, disinformation and marketing BS are usually caught quickly. More than once, slashdot posters have pointed out inaccurate and misleading info that most journalists would miss (*cough* *Mindcraft* *cough*).
Yes, there is a fair amount of noise, flamage, and immaturity. That comes with having an open forum. I'll take that over polished, edited, and filtered slickness any day. Heck, I read those -1 posts.
If you've already formed an opinion about Word Perfect on Linux, ignore this. If you're curious about one Joe User's experience, here it is.
I've used both ApplixWare and StarOffice. 99% of my need for an office productivity suite is the word processor. Accurate importing of MS Word docs is nice because it saves me having to use my spouse's PC.
ApplixWare and StarOffice both have fine word processors which meet most of my needs. For me, though, ApplixWord seems to have a few bugs in the MS Word import. StarOffice works a little better, but it's just too much. IMHO, StarOffice comes close to being an operating system all by itself. This is totally subjective, but I'm not looking for an office suite on Linux that makes it feel like I'm using Windows (a "start" button?).
I downloaded Corel's Word Perfect for Linux and found that it's a perfect fit. It's very intuitive. It has everything I want in a word processor with minimal feature bloat (no talking paperclip). So far, it has done a good job of reading/writing MS-format documents.
For me, at least, Corel's free WP trial has worked perfectly. I'm ordering the CD.
BTW -- I like vim too for code/HTML/text editing. It's just that WYSIWYG is easier when I'm creating invoices, proposals, and other "business" documents. Maybe someday I'll be able to pay someone to do that stuff for me.:)
Yes, I'm serious (for once). Someone else on this topic pointed out that copying the "Intel Inside" slogan might not be a great idea. It might seem unoriginal.
So what about, "GNU in Use" or "GNU Used Here"? Try them out loud. Seems pretty catchy and (shudder) marketable, IMHO.
I've had bad experiences with Netscape's Java VM on SuSE 6.0. The problems seemed to start when I went to the 4.5 version of Communicator. I've just downloaded 4.6 and I get the same problems.
I usually get a complete lock-up on pages with applets. A tiny alert dialog appears (you have to look for it). The few times I've been able to resize the dialog and read it's contents, it had "xlib: unexpected async reply" over and over.
Worst of all, Netscape keeps popping up these nearly-invisible dialogs until you're able to close it. I usually end up doing a kill -9 on the process.
I've downloaded Mozilla (M5, I think) and I'll be trying it. I guess I can also install glibc2 and see what the latest XFree version is.
BTW -- I don't think it's J++. I've compiled applets with the Blackdown JDK, and they run fine in every browser except Netscape for Linux.
Thanks for chiming in on this. If anyone finds a fix, please e-mail me (donkpunch@maiermedia.com). I would like to post the fix on my company's site.
Somebody please help me out here, because I evidently just don't get it.
Why is SPEED the overwhelming issue? IMHO, there is so much more involved in choosing a server OS. Do we really need to measure the number of milliseconds it takes to rename a file on the server? Isn't that a little silly?
Picking a hardware/operating system configuration is not a drag race. You care about cost. You care about uptime. You care about security. You care about support.
The skills of your existing personnel are important too. If you have a staff of freshly-certified MSCEs, it's very unlikely that you will use a Unix-like system. OTOH, if your network admins love Unix, they will want to work in a familiar environment.
In the end, speed is not really the same thing as "performance". Benchmarks like these provide nice soundbites for the winner (whoever it may be). They also improve magazine sales and web traffic for the publications. If you choose to commit your organization to an operating system based on them, however, then maybe you deserve what you get.
As my mom used to say, "When that lawnmower cuts off your feet, don't come running to me."
You make an excellent point. The wording seems to characterize "The Linux Community" as a competing corporation
"The Linux Community, Inc." -- trademark it and reserve the domain now!
Peace and Harmony and all that
on
BSD vs GPL
·
· Score: 5
(Putting flamethrower away) Let's talk.
First of all, my personal opinion is that a person (or entity) who writes code has the right to determine the terms of how that code is distributed. When I write a program, I can release it under public domain, BSD-style license, GPL, or whatever. Heck, I can create a license that forces people to "subscribe" to my program and send me money every year or it shuts down. Nobody is obligated to use my software if they don't like my license.
In fact, I believe that terms of use are a feature of software -- just like speed, ease-of-use, and reliablility. I only wish we had software consumers who were more educated about EULAs and what clicking that "Next" button during the install really means.
I'm very leery of an interpretation of the GPL from someone whom I don't believe is a lawyer. The use of terms like "communist" and "viral" is simply inflammatory.
I do understand why people who favor a BSD-style license are concerned about developers using GPL without considering a BSD license. Thanks to the attention focused on Linux, there's a certain "trendiness" to releasing code under the GPL today. In some cases, a BSD license may be more appropriate and beneficial.
Developing Free Software is often a labor of love. For some, it's their art. I sympathize with a developer who worries that their work will be "embraced and extended" by a corporate entity and they'll never see what happens to it. The GPL prevents this (even for developers who might find the license's introduction a little heavy-handed).
Finally, I think the LAST thing that GPL and *BSD users should be doing is fighting each other. I'm sure there are people growing interested in *BSD as a result of "Linux hype". I'm sure there are people who use both. I'm sure there are people who switched to *BSD after using Linux. I saw yesterday's news about AOL's interest in a *BSD-powered set-top as proof that the attention is benefitting everyone.
Those who favor GPL and those who favor *BSD have more in common than not. They also have bigger opponents than each other.
From the article: "A byte can store about one character of text." I'm glad they tell me these things.:)
/* TODO: Insert witty Unicode reference here. */
It was only a few years ago I saw an article about 10 gig IBM drives. The article said that the drives could hold the equivalent of "six pickup trucks of printed information".
We spent a lot of time wondering what model truck, whether the information was printed on both sides of the page, what size font was used, etc.
Really. I posted some brand-new code yesterday and... Hey... Who are you guys? Wait a minute! I have the right to remain silent? What are you talking about? Mmmph....
BeBoxer pointed out rightly yesterday that "source code == protected speech" has the greatest implications for Free/Open Source developers.
Possible scenario -- Mozilla with 128-bit encryption is allowed to be distributed in source code form worldwide. Binary-only browsers are subject to the current restrictions.
Other possibilities -- American companies specializing in crypto software or using strong-crypto technology choose to release source code because it's the only way they can export their products. They can still restrict modification, redistribution, etc. so it's not really Free Software, but maybe it will lead to that.
As others have mentioned, the ruling itself is fairly narrow in scope. Still, it will be interesting to see where this goes.
Slashdot Mirror
Goodness gracious.... Here's a post that only the brave dare answer. :)
;)
Ok, I'll take a shot and everyone else can dogpile me for all the stuff I leave out and get wrong.
If you could get a complete distribution in a single file, it would be a pretty huge file. You can probably get a disk image via FTP of most distributions (Red Hat, Debian, Slackware, etc.) Burn the image to CD-ROMs or copy it to an NFS mount and you're set.
If I Remember Correctly, in many cases it's also possible to boot off an install floppy and do your install via FTP from the distributor's site.
I suspect this post may result in several, "just buy/order CDs" responses. Honestly, I have to agree. A CD distro is a cheap/fast/easy way to get started. At the very least, it gets you a working OS quickly. It also comes in handy when a friend wants to install Linux, too.
Personally, I usually install a scratch system from CDs, recompile the kernel with my networking and hardware options, then start downloading the latest kernel, utilities, etc. This way, I'm able to work with the system while I'm updating it.
This advice is solely based on my humble experience, so take it for what it's worth. Do have fun, though.
Maybe it's l33t?
BTW -- Does this stuff give anyone else a headache?
#define COMMENT_TONE HUMOROUS
Why in the world is a slashdotter browsing jobs on the Microsoft web site? Hmmmmmmm?
I really like the idea of more critical software consumers. I want to see people actually READING their license agreements. It would put the biggest grin on my face to see someone read an agreement and say, "No way am I agreeing to that. Back to the store you go."
I would also love to see more people actively looking for better software. "Better" is a subjective term, though. Ease-of-use might be the most important thing to someone while reliablity might be more important to someone else. Either way, anything is an improvement over the current "take what they give you" mentality. It will be a great day when more computer users say, "Ok XYZProgram, you have crashed on me for the last time. I'm going to find something better."
I question the author's points about ease-of-use. Granted, there is always room for improvement here, but computers have become REAL easy to use these days. Some of the people who complain that their computer isn't as easy to use as their toaster seem to forget that the computer does a lot more than the toaster. Perhaps this is why some pundits are predicting the rise of set-tops and special-purpose embedded systems -- systems that trade flexibility for simplicity.
"Today, Linus Torvalds, respected computer effer and Kimberly, gave a short speech...."
(shrug) Heck, why not?
The article says that they evaluated several different operating systems. Also, it would seem that developing a flight simulator would be a costly proposition. I think the cost of OS licensing would be a fairly small percentage of the whole.
;)
I'm really not trying to stand up and say, "See how great Linux is?" I titled the post "Impressive" because, well, _I_ was impressed when I read the article. (It was also a nod to Darth Vader in ESB)
No, I don't know the first thing about commercial flight simulators. All of my assumptions could be completely wrong. I would love for someone who knows something about this stuff to correct me, so I'll know if this really IS impressive.
Finally, despite what one moderator thinks, this was not meant as a troll. I was genuinely impressed that Linux would be chosen for such a task. I understand that probably no one else is interested in whether or not I'm impressed. I'm also sure that slashdot would be no worse off if I kept my little opinions and comments to myself.
I apologize if the original post was troll-like, but I promise that it was not my intent. You can tell when I'm trolling, because I'll log in as Anonymous Coward.
Here is a company that probably could/would use ANY operating system they wanted. They apparently did some real comparisons and chose a free operating system.
-- This part of my post left blank for note-taking --
An Active X component is really just a library. You must specifically reference an Active X component in the code of the calling program. There is no standalone entry point that allows execution of an Active X component (no main() ).
I can _possibly_ see an Active X Gecko component being released under an LGPL. I suspect, though, that the Gecko Active X component is the Gecko code with the required Active X entry points added. If the internal Gecko code is already GPL, I don't think you can release such a component under LGPL.
FWIW, I think a Gecko component is one of the coolest ideas I've heard in a while.
Overall, I don't have a problem with third-party clean-room Java VMs and compilers.
What I DO worry about is compatibility. It's bad enough now that people joke about "write once, test everywhere". Introducing a bunch of "mostly" compatible VMs negates a big reason for using Java. I fear a support nightmare for developers trying to write Java applications ("Ok, it works fine under the Sun and Blackdown VMs, but it barfs on the HP").
I don't have much faith in the market weeding out incompatible VMs in this case. It seems more likely that the work will fall on the developers to make sure that their code runs even on bad VMs. It's too easy to say, "Well, PCBonehead Magazine says the Caffeine Overdose Java VM is the fastest. If your stuff doesn't work on it, that's YOUR problem."
IMHO, forums like slashdot are BETTER than journalism:
1) They allow relatively unfiltered feedback from the readers (vs. a few select letters that make it to the OpEd section of the newspaper).
2) There is no pretense that slashdot is unbiased. To me, this is preferable to supposedly unbiased journalism that subtlely reflects the journalist's own opinions. Selective reporting and coloring of facts is more insidious than simply saying, "Hey, we like *BSD and Linux around here."
3) Generally, the people delivering and commenting on the information know what they are talking about. In the slashdot forum, disinformation and marketing BS are usually caught quickly. More than once, slashdot posters have pointed out inaccurate and misleading info that most journalists would miss (*cough* *Mindcraft* *cough*).
Yes, there is a fair amount of noise, flamage, and immaturity. That comes with having an open forum. I'll take that over polished, edited, and filtered slickness any day. Heck, I read those -1 posts.
If you've already formed an opinion about Word Perfect on Linux, ignore this. If you're curious about one Joe User's experience, here it is.
:)
I've used both ApplixWare and StarOffice. 99% of my need for an office productivity suite is the word processor. Accurate importing of MS Word docs is nice because it saves me having to use my spouse's PC.
ApplixWare and StarOffice both have fine word processors which meet most of my needs. For me, though, ApplixWord seems to have a few bugs in the MS Word import. StarOffice works a little better, but it's just too much. IMHO, StarOffice comes close to being an operating system all by itself. This is totally subjective, but I'm not looking for an office suite on Linux that makes it feel like I'm using Windows (a "start" button?).
I downloaded Corel's Word Perfect for Linux and found that it's a perfect fit. It's very intuitive. It has everything I want in a word processor with minimal feature bloat (no talking paperclip). So far, it has done a good job of reading/writing MS-format documents.
For me, at least, Corel's free WP trial has worked perfectly. I'm ordering the CD.
BTW -- I like vim too for code/HTML/text editing. It's just that WYSIWYG is easier when I'm creating invoices, proposals, and other "business" documents. Maybe someday I'll be able to pay someone to do that stuff for me.
I was planning on starting a project to construct a Palm Pilot Beowulf cluster.
I had to drop the project. "PalmWolf" sounded too much like the title of a porn movie.
...and the computer rebooted. :)
/dev/tp."
Just imagine what kind of paper the printer would use:
"I'm out of toilet paper!"
"It's ok, just cat something to
/* Hoping the moderators tolerate my silliness */
Yes, I'm serious (for once). Someone else on this topic pointed out that copying the "Intel Inside" slogan might not be a great idea. It might seem unoriginal.
So what about, "GNU in Use" or "GNU Used Here"? Try them out loud. Seems pretty catchy and (shudder) marketable, IMHO.
I've had bad experiences with Netscape's Java VM on SuSE 6.0. The problems seemed to start when I went to the 4.5 version of Communicator. I've just downloaded 4.6 and I get the same problems.
I usually get a complete lock-up on pages with applets. A tiny alert dialog appears (you have to look for it). The few times I've been able to resize the dialog and read it's contents, it had "xlib: unexpected async reply" over and over.
Worst of all, Netscape keeps popping up these nearly-invisible dialogs until you're able to close it. I usually end up doing a kill -9 on the process.
I've downloaded Mozilla (M5, I think) and I'll be trying it. I guess I can also install glibc2 and see what the latest XFree version is.
BTW -- I don't think it's J++. I've compiled applets with the Blackdown JDK, and they run fine in every browser except Netscape for Linux.
Thanks for chiming in on this. If anyone finds a fix, please e-mail me (donkpunch@maiermedia.com). I would like to post the fix on my company's site.
Somebody please help me out here, because I evidently just don't get it.
Why is SPEED the overwhelming issue? IMHO, there is so much more involved in choosing a server OS. Do we really need to measure the number of milliseconds it takes to rename a file on the server? Isn't that a little silly?
Picking a hardware/operating system configuration is not a drag race. You care about cost. You care about uptime. You care about security. You care about support.
The skills of your existing personnel are important too. If you have a staff of freshly-certified MSCEs, it's very unlikely that you will use a Unix-like system. OTOH, if your network admins love Unix, they will want to work in a familiar environment.
In the end, speed is not really the same thing as "performance". Benchmarks like these provide nice soundbites for the winner (whoever it may be). They also improve magazine sales and web traffic for the publications. If you choose to commit your organization to an operating system based on them, however, then maybe you deserve what you get.
As my mom used to say, "When that lawnmower cuts off your feet, don't come running to me."
You make an excellent point. The wording seems to characterize "The Linux Community" as a competing corporation
"The Linux Community, Inc." -- trademark it and reserve the domain now!
(Putting flamethrower away) Let's talk.
First of all, my personal opinion is that a person (or entity) who writes code has the right to determine the terms of how that code is distributed. When I write a program, I can release it under public domain, BSD-style license, GPL, or whatever. Heck, I can create a license that forces people to "subscribe" to my program and send me money every year or it shuts down. Nobody is obligated to use my software if they don't like my license.
In fact, I believe that terms of use are a feature of software -- just like speed, ease-of-use, and reliablility. I only wish we had software consumers who were more educated about EULAs and what clicking that "Next" button during the install really means.
I'm very leery of an interpretation of the GPL from someone whom I don't believe is a lawyer. The use of terms like "communist" and "viral" is simply inflammatory.
I do understand why people who favor a BSD-style license are concerned about developers using GPL without considering a BSD license. Thanks to the attention focused on Linux, there's a certain "trendiness" to releasing code under the GPL today. In some cases, a BSD license may be more appropriate and beneficial.
Developing Free Software is often a labor of love. For some, it's their art. I sympathize with a developer who worries that their work will be "embraced and extended" by a corporate entity and they'll never see what happens to it. The GPL prevents this (even for developers who might find the license's introduction a little heavy-handed).
Finally, I think the LAST thing that GPL and *BSD users should be doing is fighting each other. I'm sure there are people growing interested in *BSD as a result of "Linux hype". I'm sure there are people who use both. I'm sure there are people who switched to *BSD after using Linux. I saw yesterday's news about AOL's interest in a *BSD-powered set-top as proof that the attention is benefitting everyone.
Those who favor GPL and those who favor *BSD have more in common than not. They also have bigger opponents than each other.
From the article: :)
"A byte can store about one character of text."
I'm glad they tell me these things.
/* TODO: Insert witty Unicode reference here. */
It was only a few years ago I saw an article about 10 gig IBM drives. The article said that the drives could hold the equivalent of "six pickup trucks of printed information".
We spent a lot of time wondering what model truck, whether the information was printed on both sides of the page, what size font was used, etc.
...charged with?
"About 25 milliamps, sir."
Stop it, you two!
Both of you are grounded!
*duck*
...but it was too dark in there.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
(just a joke, folks)
Really. I posted some brand-new code yesterday and... Hey... Who are you guys? Wait a minute! I have the right to remain silent? What are you talking about? Mmmph....
:) */
/* Shamelessly stealing slashdot schtick
BeBoxer pointed out rightly yesterday that "source code == protected speech" has the greatest implications for Free/Open Source developers.
Possible scenario -- Mozilla with 128-bit encryption is allowed to be distributed in source code form worldwide. Binary-only browsers are subject to the current restrictions.
Other possibilities -- American companies specializing in crypto software or using strong-crypto technology choose to release source code because it's the only way they can export their products. They can still restrict modification, redistribution, etc. so it's not really Free Software, but maybe it will lead to that.
As others have mentioned, the ruling itself is fairly narrow in scope. Still, it will be interesting to see where this goes.