Your freedom infringes mine
on
Scour is Dead
·
· Score: 2
May scour rest in peace. The capitialists just chalked up a kill. Odds are more will follow before they get shut down, if they ever do. Free file sharing is at stake here, and the freedom side doesnt have the backing to do anything about it at the moment.
What about the freedom of people to charge for what they spend time and money and sweat to produce? Ever consider THAT freedom?
I'm a partner in a film company. We're just getting started. I'd like to have the opportunity to recoup some of my investment at some point in the future -- cameras, lighting, actors pay, film stock, script writing, editing rooms, post production, audio dubbing, getting permission for music and/or scoring music, special effects, props, locations, film licenses (try filming on a street without it), etc etc etc cost MUCHO money. So if I'm willing to put the cash that I spend months, even years building up into making a movie, why should you get it for free whether I want you to or not?
Yeah, and here's the HTML code that they generate for "about:mozilla":
Well, I'm sure that a piddly little easter egg like that went through years and years of extensive quality control, because - as we all know - the ability to type "about:mozilla" is an essential part of using ANY kind of browser.
The funny thing was that I was pushing Linux and open-source software and he was bashing it. That is until he actually had to install Corel Linux on a machine (can't remember the reason) and he (not too happily) had to admit that it was extremely easy to install and configure when he did it.
Funny... when I tried to install Corel Linux, it repeatedly gave me the finger. Literally.
Nice splash screen. Installs a bit. Ejects CD tray, pulls tray back in, reboots. Nice splash screen. Installs (same bit). Ejects CD tray, pulls back tray back in (I grabbed the disk that time). Reboots. Nice splash screen. Installs same thing *again*, pulls tray back in, reboots.
It's just my opinion of course, but I think a command line shell is just a better idea, it gives them the right mental image. That snippet of code you posted (I'm assuming slashdot stripped out the stdio.h after #include)
Yup
would work on both systems, but the program would be a lot more bloated on windows.
IIRC, it takes about 2Kb of space when compiled -- and that's including the linker relocation symbols.
Where is the code that defines the window geometry?
It's not a part of console apps; they just pop up -- like an xterm -- and the app writes to the stream. If you need a curses style environment, you can grab the console handle and write directly to a text-buffer -- but it's not necessary.
I'm assuming MS just adds it to the executable, but what happens when we want them to code in a more complex environment? If you hold their hand too much they won't learn the basics, and we'll just have a generation of programmers who only know "visual" languages.
Nope - about the only wrapping that MS does for a console app is to (a) create a console, (b) bind STDIN, STDOUT and STDERR to the correct streams, and parse the commandline before passing it into the app.
One thing 'we' do that Microsoft doesn't is make the Unix programming tools available to anyone who wants them for free. (Ms's academic licences for VIsual Studio is $249 for the complete package, $99 for individual components)
Sorry, but that's wrong. The full price version is $249 (professional). Last time I looked at buying an educational copy of VC++, it was $25-$35 depending on where you looked.
For beginning programming, I'd think UNIX would be a lot friendlier than any MS platform; they should be learning the basics, not API calls and cafeteria-style programming.
So what are the basics?
Assembly language?
Functions and variables?
Classes and objects?
Command line programming?
GUI programming?
Define the basics, and you'll find that your definition doesn't match everyone's.
For 'beginning' programming (presumably by which everyone here seems to mean command-line C apps), UNIX is no friendlier than MS's platform -- if not more unfriendly (this may change when the KDE IDE is finished) -- text-based debugging sucks ass.
For example:
Open MS VC++
Create a "Win32 Console App" project.
Enter:
#include
int main(char[][] argv, int argc) {
printf("Hello world\r\n");
}
Then hit run.
Hey presto! It works. Wow. That looks real different to Unix programming, doesn't it?
So what's the difference? Learning how to fork? socket programming? (not something that most people will hit until they're a bit more experienced)? What?
Or is it just that UNIX isn't Microsoft? Sounds like it to me.
I remember when I went to the "training seminar" [a misnomer, it was a marketing pitch] for
Visual InterDev 1.0 in Pittsburgh, the Microsoft speaker swore up and down that activex, MTS, and ASP support was "just around the corner" for solaris, linux and macintosh....
Abortion isn't the answer you stupid piece of shit. If you are going to kill someone you should do it because they deserve it. If you kill someone and you deserve to die, you SHOULD die! You should have time to show the world you deserve to live, not kill you will in utero. You sick ass wipe. Stupid whores and sluts that get pregnant shouldn't be let off the hook. They should be FORCED to give up the baby for adoption and let ethical people raise the child.
Like you? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahah!
No scrollable buffer. Honestly, I can't figure out why someone would use telnet.exe when they have HyperTerminal on their system. (Except for the NTLM authentication.)
No, it has a scrollable buffer.
Start Menu->Run: telnet xxx.xx.xxx.xxx
Click the Icon (top right of window), select Properties from the Menu.
Select the Layout tab.
Change Screen Buffer - Height to however long you want it to be. The default is 300 lines.
Unfortunately, Microsoft's telnet client continues to suck rocks through a straw. Try running "pine" using MS Telnet. You'll be hitting ctrl-L a lot. I actually use VNC to connect to an X session on my linux gateway to use telnet.
You're not running Win2K though, are you?
telnet xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
[login]
^]
unset LOCAL_ECHO
set TERM VT100
^M
set term=vt100
pine
... works great for me. What problems are you seeing?
I don't see any Word screenshots... not that I have any reason to doubt the WINE developers, but it sure would be nice to be able to show the NT bigots in my acquaintance, just to rub salt in their wounds a little...
Heck, check those scrollbars on that screenshot of Excel. I don't think anyone on the Linux side of things is going to be rubbing salt into any NT user's wounds any time now.
How many? How many programmers are there worldwide? Do you think that all of them could find jobs working on products that will be effectively given away for free?
Well, I'm making a shitload of money writing free software.
Oh... hang on a minute... sorry... I'm making a SHITLOAD of money selling crack. The software is just a sideline.
See the difference? RMS forces you to nothing. If you don`t like him or otherwise disagree with him, you have the freedom to go away but still use software he wrote. The only thing you aren`t allowed to do is make his software proprietary. He only tries to convince you. Now compare that to Microsoft... ever read a Microsoft standard EULA?
No, he forces you not to make his software proprietary. EULA == GPL; they've just got different purposes. One is to protect the rights of the software authors; the other is to spread like a virus throughout the software community until nothing is left.
Sure, CDs aren't as important as food or shelter -- but they mean to people than you'd think. Everyone has a favorite song they identify with. Music is part of culture; should we deprive some people of the right to have a culture simply because they "cannot afford it"?
Heck, this is exactly the same as some of the crap I saw when I lived in DC. A "poor" neighborhood was one where people only had two television sets, or only one car.
Back home, a "poor" neighborhood was one where people didn't have a television. They didn't have a radio. They didn't have a car. They didn't have a phone.
No-one has a "right" to CDs. If they want music, they can make their own. It's easy -- get some strings and a block of wood.
Fucking mollycoddled pussies. You wouldn't know a dose of reality if it hit you.
Remember that, at one point, you could just as easily say "voting rights are held by all those Americans permitted by law to vote", and exclude women, the non-landed, minorities, some religious sects, etc.
Just as you can exclude voting rights today from H1B workers who pay 35% of their wages in taxes.
Taxes are a fee for services rendered. Enforced insurance, sort of. But most of the governments services are the sort you never want to need. Like the cop, the ambulance, the medical research, etc.
Then... as an H1B non-resident alien.. why do I have to pay taxes to the IRS? Surely if my taxes are paying to keep the INS going, I should have my greencard in no time instead of this interminable wait?
The states sued separately from the U.S. Gov. Why should they have any effect on how much the US Gov gets to say? Am I missing something?
Well, the states wanted in on the DOJ's case, filed briefs in the original case, and forced Microsoft to settle with *them* and the DOJ -- not just the DOJ.
According to my sources, and public statements from the DOJ, Posner and Microsoft, if the States hadn't been there, a settlement *would* have been reached.
However, they were there, and because of that, they're part of the DOJ's 'team'. So their briefs become a part of the DOJ's brief.
Okay, now hold up a minute here. I recall a whole bunch of articles just a few months ago about how Microsoft was No Longer allowing major OEM's to ship Windows CD-ROMs[*] anymore. This was, as I recall, to help stop piracy
Yes indeedy. So they ship system-restore CDs instead, which have a system image on them -- aka Windows. But they're targetted to that model of machine only, and you get all the OEM stuff.
You should probably go re-read your naval history. The naval enigma machine that the story in U-571 is based on was, in fact, captured by the RN in 1941. That much is correct. However, in 1944, the USS Guadalcanal battle group captured the U-505, including its code books and naval enigma. The U-505 is currently on display in front of the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry. Not sure where the U-505's engima wound up, but if I had to guess, it's probably at the NSA museum.
IIRC, it's right in front of the exit of the Sub, on the left, in the museum.
Slashdot Mirror
May scour rest in peace. The capitialists just chalked up a kill. Odds are more will follow before they get shut down, if they ever do. Free file sharing is at stake here, and the freedom side doesnt have the backing to do anything about it at the moment.
What about the freedom of people to charge for what they spend time and money and sweat to produce? Ever consider THAT freedom?
I'm a partner in a film company. We're just getting started. I'd like to have the opportunity to recoup some of my investment at some point in the future -- cameras, lighting, actors pay, film stock, script writing, editing rooms, post production, audio dubbing, getting permission for music and/or scoring music, special effects, props, locations, film licenses (try filming on a street without it), etc etc etc cost MUCHO money. So if I'm willing to put the cash that I spend months, even years building up into making a movie, why should you get it for free whether I want you to or not?
Simon
Yeah, and here's the HTML code that they generate for "about:mozilla":
Well, I'm sure that a piddly little easter egg like that went through years and years of extensive quality control, because - as we all know - the ability to type "about:mozilla" is an essential part of using ANY kind of browser.
Simon
By what standard? Grow up asshole.
By the Windows standards. There's a reason they pass in a ShowWindow parameter which says how the window should display.
Si
That's a Win 98 specific problem. Any of the DOS-based Windows will do that.
Only if:
(a) you don't release GDI handles when you're done with them.
(b) you have badly written DLLs that are terminated incorrectly
(c) you incorrectly terminate threads
They're probably not doing a DeleteObject() somewhere.
Simon
The funny thing was that I was pushing Linux and open-source software and he was bashing it. That is until he actually had to install Corel Linux on a machine (can't remember the reason) and he (not too happily) had to admit that it was extremely easy to install and configure when he did it.
Funny... when I tried to install Corel Linux, it repeatedly gave me the finger. Literally.
Nice splash screen. Installs a bit. Ejects CD tray, pulls tray back in, reboots. Nice splash screen. Installs (same bit). Ejects CD tray, pulls back tray back in (I grabbed the disk that time). Reboots. Nice splash screen. Installs same thing *again*, pulls tray back in, reboots.
AGHHHHHH!!!!!!
Si
*grins* I've been using way too much java recently. :) Swapping languages makes you go crosseyed.
Simon
It's just my opinion of course, but I think a command line shell is just a better idea, it gives them the right mental image. That snippet of code you posted (I'm assuming slashdot stripped out the stdio.h after #include)
Yup
would work on both systems, but the program would be a lot more bloated on windows.
IIRC, it takes about 2Kb of space when compiled -- and that's including the linker relocation symbols.
Where is the code that defines the window geometry?
It's not a part of console apps; they just pop up -- like an xterm -- and the app writes to the stream. If you need a curses style environment, you can grab the console handle and write directly to a text-buffer -- but it's not necessary.
I'm assuming MS just adds it to the executable, but what happens when we want them to code in a more complex environment? If you hold their hand too much they won't learn the basics, and we'll just have a generation of programmers who only know "visual" languages.
Nope - about the only wrapping that MS does for a console app is to (a) create a console, (b) bind STDIN, STDOUT and STDERR to the correct streams, and parse the commandline before passing it into the app.
That's it.
Simon
Relying on debuggers is a bad habit, and it is didactically bad for systems like Visual C++ to make it so easy.
Depends... most people will work on maintaining old code (which sucks, but is the meat of a programming career, unless you're very fortunate).
While I agree about Assertions, a good debugger can be *invaluable* when you're dealing with old, sloppily written code that you have to maintain.
Simon
You're not locked in to any particular browser (though Micros~1 makes it hard for you to switch).
No they don't. My machine here runs Netscape 4.7, Opera and IE.
So what's the hard part?
Simon
Umm... how do you do graphical debugging as opposed to text-based?
Go to line of code.
Insert breakpoint (rightmouse in border/hit toolbar/hit F8 - take your pick).
Hit Go (F5)
Mouse over variable. Hey! It's the value of the variable.
Open the callstack! Hey! It's onscreen with my code.
Open the register list -- hey they're onscreen too!
Look at the disassembly -- with source in the window next to it.
Add a watch... hey! I've got this tree of the objects in the structure I'm looking at, and I can expand the bits that I need/close the bits I don't.
It's the difference between this:
KDBG screenshot, and this:
a sample GDB session
Simon
One thing 'we' do that Microsoft doesn't is make the Unix programming tools available to anyone who wants them for free. (Ms's academic licences for VIsual Studio is $249 for the complete package, $99 for individual components)
Sorry, but that's wrong. The full price version is $249 (professional). Last time I looked at buying an educational copy of VC++, it was $25-$35 depending on where you looked.
Simon
For beginning programming, I'd think UNIX would be a lot friendlier than any MS platform; they should be learning the basics, not API calls and cafeteria-style programming.
So what are the basics?
Assembly language?
Functions and variables?
Classes and objects?
Command line programming?
GUI programming?
Define the basics, and you'll find that your definition doesn't match everyone's.
For 'beginning' programming (presumably by which everyone here seems to mean command-line C apps), UNIX is no friendlier than MS's platform -- if not more unfriendly (this may change when the KDE IDE is finished) -- text-based debugging sucks ass.
For example:
Open MS VC++
Create a "Win32 Console App" project.
Enter:
#include
int main(char[][] argv, int argc) {
printf("Hello world\r\n");
}
Then hit run.
Hey presto! It works. Wow. That looks real different to Unix programming, doesn't it?
So what's the difference? Learning how to fork? socket programming? (not something that most people will hit until they're a bit more experienced)? What?
Or is it just that UNIX isn't Microsoft? Sounds like it to me.
I remember when I went to the "training seminar" [a misnomer, it was a marketing pitch] for
Visual InterDev 1.0 in Pittsburgh, the Microsoft speaker swore up and down that activex, MTS, and ASP support was "just around the corner" for solaris, linux and macintosh....
http://www.chilisoft.com/
Try that out.
Simon
Abortion isn't the answer you stupid piece of shit. If you are going to kill someone you should do it because they deserve it. If you kill someone and you deserve to die, you SHOULD die! You should have time to show the world you deserve to live, not kill you will in utero. You sick ass wipe. Stupid whores and sluts that get pregnant shouldn't be let off the hook. They should be FORCED to give up the baby for adoption and let ethical people raise the child.
h ahahahahah!
Like you? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
You crack me up.
No scrollable buffer. Honestly, I can't figure out why someone would use telnet.exe when they have HyperTerminal on their system. (Except for the NTLM authentication.)
No, it has a scrollable buffer.
Start Menu->Run: telnet xxx.xx.xxx.xxx
Click the Icon (top right of window), select Properties from the Menu.
Select the Layout tab.
Change Screen Buffer - Height to however long you want it to be. The default is 300 lines.
Use the scrollbar then to scroll.
Simon
Unfortunately, Microsoft's telnet client continues to suck rocks through a straw. Try running "pine" using MS Telnet. You'll be hitting ctrl-L a lot. I actually use VNC to connect to an X session on my linux gateway to use telnet.
You're not running Win2K though, are you?
telnet xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
[login]
^]
unset LOCAL_ECHO
set TERM VT100
^M
set term=vt100
pine
... works great for me. What problems are you seeing?
Simon
I don't see any Word screenshots ... not that I have any reason to doubt the WINE developers, but it sure would be nice to be able to show the NT bigots in my acquaintance, just to rub salt in their wounds a little ...
Heck, check those scrollbars on that screenshot of Excel. I don't think anyone on the Linux side of things is going to be rubbing salt into any NT user's wounds any time now.
Simon
How many? How many programmers are there worldwide? Do you think that all of them could find jobs working on products that will be effectively given away for free?
Well, I'm making a shitload of money writing free software.
Oh... hang on a minute... sorry... I'm making a SHITLOAD of money selling crack. The software is just a sideline.
Simon
See the difference? RMS forces you to nothing. If you don`t like him or otherwise disagree with him, you have the freedom to go away but still use software he wrote. The only thing you aren`t allowed to do is make his software proprietary. He only tries to convince you. Now compare that to Microsoft... ever read a Microsoft standard EULA?
No, he forces you not to make his software proprietary. EULA == GPL; they've just got different purposes. One is to protect the rights of the software authors; the other is to spread like a virus throughout the software community until nothing is left.
Simon
Sure, CDs aren't as important as food or shelter -- but they mean to people than you'd think. Everyone has a favorite song they identify with. Music is part of culture; should we deprive some people of the right to have a culture simply because they "cannot afford it"?
Heck, this is exactly the same as some of the crap I saw when I lived in DC. A "poor" neighborhood was one where people only had two television sets, or only one car.
Back home, a "poor" neighborhood was one where people didn't have a television. They didn't have a radio. They didn't have a car. They didn't have a phone.
No-one has a "right" to CDs. If they want music, they can make their own. It's easy -- get some strings and a block of wood.
Fucking mollycoddled pussies. You wouldn't know a dose of reality if it hit you.
Simon
Remember that, at one point, you could just as easily say "voting rights are held by all those Americans permitted by law to vote", and exclude women, the non-landed, minorities, some religious sects, etc.
Just as you can exclude voting rights today from H1B workers who pay 35% of their wages in taxes.
Simon
Taxes are a fee for services rendered. Enforced insurance, sort of. But most of the governments services are the sort you never want to need. Like the cop, the ambulance, the medical research, etc.
Then... as an H1B non-resident alien.. why do I have to pay taxes to the IRS? Surely if my taxes are paying to keep the INS going, I should have my greencard in no time instead of this interminable wait?
Simon
The states sued separately from the U.S. Gov. Why should they have any effect on how much the US Gov gets to say? Am I missing something?
Well, the states wanted in on the DOJ's case, filed briefs in the original case, and forced Microsoft to settle with *them* and the DOJ -- not just the DOJ.
According to my sources, and public statements from the DOJ, Posner and Microsoft, if the States hadn't been there, a settlement *would* have been reached.
However, they were there, and because of that, they're part of the DOJ's 'team'. So their briefs become a part of the DOJ's brief.
Simon
Okay, now hold up a minute here. I recall a whole bunch of articles just a few months ago about how Microsoft was No Longer allowing major OEM's to ship Windows CD-ROMs[*] anymore. This was, as I recall, to help stop piracy
Yes indeedy. So they ship system-restore CDs instead, which have a system image on them -- aka Windows. But they're targetted to that model of machine only, and you get all the OEM stuff.
Simon
You should probably go re-read your naval history. The naval enigma machine that the story in U-571 is based on was, in fact, captured by the RN in 1941. That much is correct. However, in 1944, the USS Guadalcanal battle group captured the U-505, including its code books and naval enigma. The U-505 is currently on display in front of the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry. Not sure where the U-505's engima wound up, but if I had to guess, it's probably at the NSA museum.
IIRC, it's right in front of the exit of the Sub, on the left, in the museum.
Simon