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Microsoft vs. "Naked PCs"
alecto writes: "The Naked PC page directed at independent computer shops compares selling PC's without an operating system with "selling a house without a roof." It also implies that the dealer knows "full well" the buyer's just going to install an infringing copy of Windows -- and that they should "politely decline" to sell a machine without an OS. The just-below-the-surface message is that dealers could be liable for infringement if a customer buys a "naked" machine from them and subsequently installs an infringing copy of Windows. (Nowhere in the text is the possibility that the customer might want to install a legal, free operating system mentioned.)" It's very much a salesmen type help piece, but it's a pretty funny read. The most amusing comment is that they say "tell them that you're best equipped to install the OS." I'm kinda curious, who keeps the default install? I mean, even if it's Windows, I always had to reinstall just to make it functional anyway. Maybe that's changed, but I still hear that solution in a context that makes it sound like conventional wisdom.
That is blatantly wrong. The license is for one computer. So if you delete the old copy then you can *super legally* install it on another. No where in the article does it say that is illegal. No where in the terms of agreemement is that wrong. What Microsoft doesn't want you doing is installing Win98 on both machines concurrently. If one is a Linux box then things are "A" OK. So in the endearing words of programmers everywhere... RTFM!
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
That's a typo. They stole my car.
Cats are for fags.
-The Reverend (I am not a Nazi nor a Troll)
-The Reverend (I am not a Nazi nor a Troll)
=(.\')=
This would have been my interpretation as well, but now I wonder. Why can't you have more than one copy installed, if the only issue in installing and running a copy is that it creates some sort of derivative copy (on the hard disk or in memory respectively)? If copyright law allows me to create all the copies of the Windows CD contents I like so long as I don't distribute them, how is it any different when I install it onto multiple hard drives, or simultaneously boot several computers with it? The latter can perhaps be covered by the shaky shrinkwrap/clickwrap EULA's contractual licence, but what of the former case of mere multiple installation? I see no "distribution" there.
Not that I've ever bought a copy of Windows, of course - or ever will. That's what Unix and the Mac OS are for.
-- Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly. ~ Robert Doisneau
In the Windows case I think it's like selling a house without the spark plugs... or the surf board... or the jello... or the chromatograph... or the rusk... or the shoulder-straps... or the dromedary.... or the Gulf of Bothnia... or the finalist... or the still-born... or the pharynx... or the goad... or the space shuttle... or the human methylglutaryl coenzyme A-reductase... or the asparagus... or the demigod... or the shirt-sleeve... or the suffragan... or the oil-tanker... or the Cretaceous... or the representative democracy... or the Hottentot... or the pole-vault...
.- -.. .. --- -....- .- -.- - .. ...- .. - .-.- - ...-.-
.-.
Help savingAmigaOS and a free PowerPC market
from what I hear, speaking English is illegal in France.
.
Then again, lot's of things in France are naughty. .
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Or like being lectured on the dangers of drugs by GW Bush.
Not to mention the fact a car taken apart and put back together runs.
A hard disk may be wiped because MICROSOFT VISUAL JAVA TECH PREVIEW requires a REFORMAT when UPGRADING to FULL RELEASE.
Says so in the docs. Then WHAT DO YOU DO?
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
"If Microsoft wants to charge for their operating systems, let them. If I don't want to buy it, I won't"
I think the people that all software should be free are a fairly tiny minority here. I get the impression that most people here don't mind the idea of charging money for software (many here make their living from doing software development.) Most people aren't complaining about Microsoft *because* they charge money for their software, but because of the poor quality of most of their software (e.g. Windows95, their biggest product) and the way they do business (namely, their many many monopoly abuses, that have been dragging down the amount of competition and the level of quality in the entire software industry for many years.
When I worked in a local computer store near a huge college, we did the same thing. We routinly sold systems with no OS, and were very friendly to Linux people (ok, I was, but I was the sales rep everyone got referred to when they said "linux")
Bottom line, if the computer store isn't willing to give you what you want (ie computer without windows) then don't give them your business. Too many of the stores that will follow this article's advice exist only to fleece people and prey on the computer illiterate anyway. Look for the store that caters to the 'computer savvy' crowd.
Finkployd
and the really sad part is that after all your work and all your upgrades, it was still only a windows machine. Don't the words "The new version is supposed to be a lot better" start to ring false after a while?
"Nothing was broken, and it's been fixed." -- Jon Carroll
It's like buying a house with pink flamingos...
Actually, I never paid for my copy of Windows 2000, but I never pirated it: it is a true, holographic-covered, "Not for Retail or OEM Distribution," copy of Windows 2000. However, I don't believe in Microsoft's doctrine of licensing media. For WMA, the entire file's on there, just use UnF&@K to, well, you know, unf&@k it. As for ASF, ASFRecorder is great. You aren't even detected; it looks just like Media Player to the server.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
It's possible that the original MB is no longer available, and they'll have to give me one that may accept more CPUs, have a faster IDE controller, better video, etc. This is rare but certainly could happen with the little "screwdriver shops" that use off the shelf parts.
Having worked tech support for three years for a major OEM (think cow spots), I can tell you that this DOES happen and it's NOT rare.
Thanks to the 14th amendment, that is.
-bugg
Obliging OEMs to pay for a MS liscence, regardless of wether or not an MS OS is needed, is illegal in the US. Misrosoft paid $155 million to find that one out. (Caldera vs MS 1996)
Interesting question wether its OK to just ask. This kind of thing, combined with Microsoft's "Innovation" campaign, show just how much they've lost their way. No, buying Hotmail, DOS, Explorer, PowerPoint, and ASP is hardly innovative. Nor is defending a monopoly. How many first rate coders do they have now?
Morality is a flexible thing, and can be applied to software piracy only by those with a vested interest in the object in question.
Software piracy is not moral or immoral; it is amoral. Comparing theft of property to the copying of a copy is at best specious. I do not feel the least bit conflicted when the opportunity presents itself.
I suppose that makes me a bad person, but, as a tax-paying citizen, I'm already responsible for the deaths of thousands, so I'll just live with it.
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."--Tacitus, The Histories
wait, what is "the system" then, 'legally'?
;)
the processor? the hard drive? the (dynamic) memory? the monitor?
seriously, though, where does it end? If i just upgrade my GeeWhiz processor with a faster one, is it the same machine? what about replacing my graphics card? (more common)?
I think, that OEM or not, a copy of windows is a copy of windows is a copy of...
just one copy on one machine at a time.
semantics are everything!
You could try this:
You: I'd like a computer. Full tower case, dual 1Ghz Intel Xeon processors, Four 72-gig disks, two pairs both in a mirrored RAID on an Adaptec controller, Gigabyte MX-2TS motherboard, 1Gb RAM, SB Live platinum sound card and a Creative 3D blaster GeForce GTS II video card.
Them: Okay, $10,000 so far. Do you want Windows with that?
You: Is it free?
Them: No, but we're best equipped to install and OS for you!
You: Ah, so I should take the components home, build a computer, bring it in here, pay you to install an OS I don't want, go back home and reformat the hard disk?
Them: Well, uh...
You: The shop down the street offered me the same parts for $8,000.
Or alternatively, you could take this approach:
You: I'd like a computer.
Them: Do you want Windows 98 with that?
You: Why would I want Windows 98? Windows Millenium Edition will be out in a few weeks anyway, I may as well wait. We both know the upgrade will be outragously expensive.
Or another option would be:
You: I want a computer.
Them: Do you want Windows 98?
You: If I do, I'll install it myself.
Them: But we are highly experienced! We know all about how best to install Windows for you!
You: I see. Which card games do I not want installed?
Them: Um... Solitaire?
You: No, hearts and Freecell.
Or...
You: I'd like to buy a computer, please.
Them: That'll be $3,500 plus $70 for a copy of Windows 98.
You: If I want Windows, I'll install it myself, thaks.
Them: But we are highly experienced and knowledgable about computer-related matters!
You: Can you convert the binary 1011 into hex in your head?
Them: No, can you?
You: Sure. You multiply the first digit by 8, giving you 8, then the second by 4 giving you 0 and the third by 2 giving you 2 and the fourth by 1, giving you 1. Add them all together and you have eleven decimal, which we all know converts to B in hexadecimal. Doesn't everyone know that?
Them: Um...
I'm sure you can think of a few alternatives too.
Michael
...another comment from Michael Tandy.
"Goodness me, how unlike the FBI to abuse the trust of the American public." -- The Onion
This is a scheme to make it corporate policy for various OEMs to sell MS OSes on their machines to prevent piracy
Duncan Watson
Duncan Watson
Naked PC's, eh? Is this in any way related to the Quickies story from yesterday about Geek Porn?
:)
Just curious.
we are building a religion
a limited edition
we are now accepting callers
for these pendant key chains
if being naked makes you easier to be raped then installing windows is anogalous to the actual execution of the crime
I can remember laughing at this a year or two ago; the "naked PC" page is ancient, and certainly predates the no-OEM-CD policy. That's why they don't agree - 'nuf said.
Of course, that doesn't excuse the blatant proganda, the no-CD policy, or the overall absurdity of "you have to buy this from us to buy a PC, only we're not even willing to actually sell it to you because we're afraid of what you might do with it". But what do you seriously expect from this company? The elevator doesn't go all the way to the top.
-- Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly. ~ Robert Doisneau
Thanks for the clue. I already have Linux installed and configured, so it will be painful (but possible) to follow your instructions now. I always love finding out that no matter how screwed up MS et. al. try to make the world, there is some clever Linux hack to get arround it. Thanks :-)
This is the second or third post I've seen implying that one of the strengths of Windows is how easy it is to install for end users. NT is easy to install, server or workstation, takes a few minutes and the prompts are obvious. But your average home user is not going to have NT. Windows 95/98 is an absolute *bitch* to reinstall. I've never had everything reinstaleld and working again in less than 2 days. Windows 9x is only easy if you buy it preinstalled, never add any addityional software or hardware to your configuration, and your installation never goes foobar. Otherwise, it's an absolute nightmare...
makes it sound as though MS considers doing so to be contributory infringement if the user subsequently installs an illegal copy of Windows
IANAL of course, but it would seem like this would be difficult to uphold in court. This would be similar to holding a dealer of a fast car responsible for a customer who speeds or gets in a deadly accident. I'm not exactly sure if microsoft could hold the vender of the computer responsible for what happens to the computer after it's sold. I would hope they are refering to something along the lines of extra support calls or maybe less satisfaction because the hardware didn't work properly with a different operating system or something to that effect.
You are right that it does sound like a threat, however there is nothing that says what will happen, but I guess it's just in there to make people think about what _could_ happen. It just sounds like more fud to me to make people think "oh, maybe we shouldn't do that".
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
How can you say that software should be licensed to users, but not content? They are both creations of people or corporations, transmitted in digital format, illegal to distribute, and easy to reproduce digitally. It amounts to proclaiming that the works of programmers are somehow inherently more valuable than the works of musicians, movie directors, composers, and artists.
If you think that circumventing copy protection on movie files is justified, then why does it matter whether or not your copy of Windows 2000 is licensed or not?
Free music from Jack Merlot.
Uh, just order them from Dell without an OS. They'll do it. I know, I ordered about 50 Optiplexs last year with no OS. Our company has a "covers just about everything" license from M$ and I don't need the OS. So they come in with just a formatted drive and I Ghost them. No problems.
"False modesty is the refuge of the incompetent." - The Stainless Steel Rat
> Still, if M$ actually had a monopole then they wouldn't need to mess
(I'll bite) Well, I know for sure that Bill Gates alone has a couple tens of kilograms worth of (electric) monopoles, that is protons and electrons.
(Side note, is it a marginal phonomenon or is the general "Slashdot community" trying to piss off all the non American/non native english speaker in there with spelling and related stuff?)
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
Auctually you gotta payfor the full BeOS.
--- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
If you've ever been on a sensitive military post, you'd know -- the signs all along the fenceline and at the gate telling you that by entering the installation you are consenting to search of your person and bags by the government at any time. These signs are posted on just about every military installation overseas in English and the host nation language.
Under normal circumstances, there would be a difference.
But nowadays, the corporations are all trying to get the legal system to play along. Thus, we have things like the DMCA, which bans copy-protection-circumvention devices based on presumption of guilt (never mind the many legitimate uses of such devices).
----------
Nearly any vendor will sell you a system without an OS if you ask for it. And if you don't want to look, just contact me. I deal in sales as well. I'll sell you anything you want, OS or not. =-]
jX [ Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. - Einstein ]
I don't know about HP. I've got a Vectra that works just fine with RH7
DB
Open sourcing Windows would cause a degradation of standards. Judging on how many programmers regard Microsoft, the entire Win32 standard would crumble due to 1337 h4x0rs tweaking KERNEL32.DLL and the TCP/IP stack just so they can DDoS servers faster.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Since when is the Win98 CD I got with my computer "promotional"? Besides, a company can't override the law of first sale with disclaimers like that. The court case over the $1 book ("this book is not to be resold for less than $1...") proved that.
One case has enforced a shrink-wrap agreement, ProCD v Zeidenburg, but I think the case is plain wrong on the issues of contract formation, and many other courts have refused to enforce the agreements.
Another obstacle to enforcement of these license terms is provision in the UCC on adhesion contracts, and an adhesion contract is almost certainly what the license agreement amounts to in the context of the consumer retail computer purchases to which I've been a party.
UCITA changes this, and would prevent the application of sales law to the formation of such "license" agreements and would allow these terms to be enforced. In Maryland, by the way, the first state implementation of UCITA just went into effect on October First. I look forward to the cases. I anticipate some copyright preemption problems for the enforcement of certain common "license" terms, especially with regard to those which purport to take away fair use and first sale rights. Ed
The 9th Circuit District court ruled that once a manufacture sells a product, they lose the right to vend or control a product. Micrsoft doesn't write the laws, congress does. The text "To be sold only with a a new PC" is an agreement Microsoft has the the company or person buying it from them. That is all. They will come back and sue your ass -using other means i.e. trademark, Lehman Act and others. I have been through the Microsoft legal process and it is not pretty, I will be paying them until next year.
Your experience must be pretty limited.
I work in a company where we have a fleet of developers, and we have NT4, Win2K, and any choice of Linux you would like, and yes, we support them all. It all has to do with the configuration of the operating system. Much like Linux, if you do it diligantly the first time, NT4 is stable as any Linux OS. Win2K is having some problems, but they are few and far between on my system
Linux around here crashes just as often, because it's not ready for the enterprise, and may never be.
You know very well that the only reason that people would want to buy self-service gas is so they can use illegal slave labor to fill their tanks.
Have all computers have linux installed by default! It's free, fast, stable.........
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
--
I sometimes upgrade my system, without buying a new copy of windoze. That's legal, right? Since Linux runs better on less hardware, it goes on the older systems.
You'd think Microsoft would like your pc naked, just makes it easier for them to rape you.
Microsoft is too big for itself, but you know this. If they had clue one, they might realize that some people already own MS Windows 9x, and are, in fact, replacing an older computer that they no longer want or use.
Go Lakers!
The interesting thing to think about here is the mindframe Microsoft seems to be exibiting.
I mean, damn, exactly how anti-competative do you have to be to think that every PC will end up with your product on it???
This isn't even smart megalomania, and that's the sad part...
--
Feminism is the wild notion that women are human beings.
If we didn't know better, we'd almost think that
Microsoft was just being clueless here as
opposed to trying to make Linux/BSD users pay
for Windows..
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
I'm wondering about Beon machines; those are pretty chic systems, but do they deserve the derisive term, "Pee-on"? Or are they Linux friendly?
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Most people cannot separate the monitor from the computer. Ask them what kind of computer they have and they're just as likely to give you the brand name of the monitor. They have no awareness of the box below it (or if they have a tower, the one at their feet). They call the big box with all the hardware in it the "hard drive" if they're tech savvy. If they're really tech savvy, they call it the "CPU." The cup-holder joke may be an urban myth, but for crying out loud it just isn't that far from the truth.
of course I've also noticed a large portion of the population doesn't seem to be aware that there is a third dimension . . .
Go to Dell's web site and price out a PowerEdge server as if you were an educational institute. It's actually cheaper to get Windows 2000 Academic with 5 CALs than it is to get Red Hat 6.2 (without printed documentation!). Wow. I mean I know it's the educational discount, but how the fuck can it be cheaper than FREE ?!?
actually, it would seem to me that *windows* users would be at higher risk of OSTDs..I mean, how many linux virii have you seen, recently?
I find this Insightful as well as Funny, because it's just another example of the myth that Microsoft is good at marketing. They're not - in fact they're abysmally bad at it, and the only things they've been good at are bullying and impossible chutzpah (even that could probably have been done more competently).
It seems that people want to believe that Microsoft are good at *something*, because otherwise why would they have all that money and sales? The truth, that they've been blindly lucky in a chaotic market environment that they don't understand at all, is harder to stomach.
-- Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly. ~ Robert Doisneau
What if some of us don't want your Free OS installed on there? Maybe we want BeOS? Maybe we want Windows 2000?
Here's a silly question, how many major Linux based computer companies sell Linux for free with their systems? Last time I checked, a lot of companies bundled retail Redhat boxes with their systems, which means your OS isn't so "Free"
You can sign up right behind the lawyers, doctors, engineers, plumbers and all the other people earning an honest living. Get there first and you might establish yourself. Get there later and you can still make a good living, even get rich, but don't expect to screw the world like Bill Gates did.
I doubt it. I've been buying os-less computers from egghead's clearance bin - TPC clones - for friends and relations without an OS for years.
If they haven't noticed onsale/egghead for two years, then they won't notice much smaller outfits.
The clones are last year's model, but plenty powerful enough enough to run Linux on. e.g. a Duron equipped box with 64mb ram and 2GB hd for $588 minus monitor and os.
No gods, no masters
This is the discussion that goes: Is a person with an artificial heart still a person? Is a person with an artificial limb still a person? Artificial kidney (dialysis)? Artificial eye? Brain?
In my mind I've been using the same "computer" for ten years. I never replace more than 5% of the computer at a time, so it never becomes a new computer. I distinguish my computer from other computers by its "personality": directory structure, user names, UI skins, shell scripts, etc.
I don't expect MS or laywers to recognize this sentimental/philosophical point. As computing resources become more swappable and more portable, the philosophy is going to start edging into the business world. Licensing software for "one computer" is a wierd concept in a world where a computer is a collection of flash rams, URL's for resources stored on the net, pluggable IO devices, etc. If you use a laptop, 50% of your computer's hardware is probably modular: you can remove the CD/DVD drive, battery, USB external keyboard and mouse, external monitor, PCMCIA cards, and flash rams. With more people moving towards regular permanant storage of data on the web (ie. all of my e-mail sits in a web mail account and many of my files on a university server) and computers becoming completely modular (my Mac and PC share all of their USB devices), I'm not so sure a computer is something you can point at, pick up, and lug down the stairs. It is more of a concept.
-m
My first PC type machine was one of the old generic CompUSA 386SX 16 boxes. I've replaced everything except the power cord from that machine so I still tell my wife I haven't really bought a new computer. It's just an upgrade.
The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer. - Edward R. Murrow
Customer to dealer: "Not so quick, what are you trying to pull pal? I don't see the fine print legalese License Agreement here. What do you think, I was born yesterday?"
When i ordered my compaq it told them leave it blank. They charged me $230 extra for a OS i din't ask for. I asked for my $230 back and got it.
The first thing i did was load Slackware 7 on it.
There's two possible motives for that... covering their butt in a legal sense, or actually trying to protect the consumer. Which one do you think it is?
--
Dude, i can back up juri's claims, i work at the same company. Since he is telling the truth about the brand part, ever seen a compaq? Some brands might give good stuff, but most of all you pay too much for the hardware.
Make a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
hey, bud.. got a few modems you'd like to give me? ;)
I'm on a road shaped like a figure eight; I'm going nowhere but I'm guaranteed to be late.
The keyword here being 'rational', which fun liscencing agreements are not.
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
1. OEM *techs* might (even that's arguable in some cases) -- OEM management likely won't.
Or: Have you ever worked as a tech in a small computer store? Or in a large computer store? I've done both. I doubt anyone outside the tech area at the large store had half a clue about anything (I saw the *store manager* assure a customer a black and white printer would print color once). The smaller stores' management was generally more clued, but I'm not sure they were clued enough to see through this piece of FUD.
2. Perhaps. But if I say 'buy my product because such and such's product will blow up, fsck your mom and take your daughter hostage' I'd be lying and that's wrong (and not legal) -- in this case, MS is lying (though they couch it with enough language that it probably wouldn't hold up in court as such) to folks who may not be savvy enough to realize it. Say what you will about legality, that's also *wrong*.
3. they're willing to lie about it (see point 2) that is..interesting..news.
When a company buys a site license for x copies of an MS OS, do they expect the purchase of another x copies of an MS OS with the hardware?
[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.
They may be using Word directly as their email client - Exchange client used to let you choose Word as your email client.
Wait til the poor guy sees how much the hard drives will cost him.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Can you please clarify something for me please? I am quite confused by this entire thread. Does this mean that this nifty cool green CD I have labeled "w2k advanced server" isn't legal?
The best way to accelerate a windows box is at 9.8 meters per second square.
I'm going to go buy a 'naked' PC right now and then pirate a copy of Linux to... oh, wait... damn, seems like M$ didn't quite think this one through.
For home PC users MS License agreements don't really matter. I mean, who in the world is going to catch you? No one. Rest assured your safe. And if you feel bad about lying when you hit 'yes' to agreeing to the license agreement you should not feel bad about lying to MS(I won't go into why but if you ask I'm sure a lot of people here would be happy to tell you :~)
Now I'm not saying you can just dupe the hell out of it and sell it at a flea market. Not like I really like MS but that is totally illegal.
But if I have a few computers at home, who gives a rat's ass if you dupe it for your own machines. Especially if you are the only one using them. Even if your whole family uses them or even if you have a small home office with like 5 people Microsoft's License Agreement is totally irrelivant.
KidSock
they're talking as if there is no other OS except Windoze. Then again, if I were at M$, I would tell everyone there was no other choice except Windoze...
scary thing is that I own 3 copies of Windows 95 and one of 98. 1 of the 95's came preloaded on my PC, 1 came with VirtualPC for my Mac, and one I bought from the store to put on the PC that replaced the first one. Both PCs and the mac have since met their maker, meaning I have 3 friggin copies of the OS. :). Win95 was about $24 at the time since Win98 had just been released, and I needed my crack (er, games).
I admit, the first PCs was because I tried to overclock it, but the other PC and the mac had a power supply and motherboard fail, respectively. I purchased an old Pentium I and bought a copy of Win95 to make it until I could afford to replace my original mac and PC. I probably would have just used one of my OEM (just what machine is the OEM copy of VirtualPC licensed to, anyway?) copies, but I had just moved and had no idea which box they were in (found 'em just last week - 2 years after I moved in
According to us law. a verbal aggrement is legally binding if it is for less than $10,000.
{he wouldn't have been sleeping with Nicole Brown to begin with
}
else
{OJ got to sleep with nicole brown
}
Read my plan to save the Bengals
Merely finding OSTDs at a (significantly) higher rate in the Linux group would establish a correlative link, but not a causational one. Kudos for the circular logic FUD use of "high-risk group" at the end of the first paragraph, though - just like a real press release in the statistical social sciences.
-- Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly. ~ Robert Doisneau
Hey - typo in your sig. it should be "victim".
I'm on a road shaped like a figure eight; I'm going nowhere but I'm guaranteed to be late.
I bought my PC from Gateway three years ago. So the experience for a new buyer might be different. But my experience dealing with sales and service were great. They had it shipped to a friend in WI to avoid the sales tax in MN. They made me a damn-near custom machine with a SCSI hd, SCSI CD, low-end processor, and no monitor for no added cost. They upgraded a graphics card that didn't have a Linux driver available and paid ME since the price of the system had gone down (my sales guy alerted me to this). They replaced the CD three times until I got one that worked. And they replaced my hd by sending me a new one overnight. They did everything I asked and more.
The hardware failures were just bad luck and I don't blame Gateway. And even though it took some time on the phone, they allways came through. And they weren't fazed by my having Linux installed (remember that was three years ago).
I'll buy there again, which is about as much praise as you can give to an OEM.
However, I think the biggest problem with a system made by the local geek is support. (No, seriously, wait on the flames.) If all of a sudden the computer decides not to boot, is it the RAM, the HD, the motherboard, or the processor? It's up to the geek to figure out, if he returns your calls at all. With a Gateway, I can just send the whole baby back to the company and let them worry about it. I know someone this happened to.... it IS a consideration.
grep -ri 'should work'
Why shouldn't we expect them to admit that? Why should consumers, or in this case, computer sellers, be threatened by Microsoft because Microsoft's marketing (and management) people are deluded?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Ok so what if it's not legal?? How in heavens' name could they catch you anyway!? Some places (mainly notebook computer manufacturers) preinstall windowz and also provide a shrink-wrapped copy of the OS as well (with licensing agreement). I can then go and use this piece of software on another computer. Are the two copies of the software treated as two seperate programs with two seperate licenses, or one program with the one license agreement for both copies?
...this is getting out of hand
I've read a few posts on /. so far about this story, and I'm glad to see that not a lot of people has problem with that. I mean, I understand MS. Ok sure, the people who will benefit most of this is MS, but still, it still seems normal that a vendor should encourage a buyer to buy windows ( or red hat, or suse, or whatever ) when buying a computer. Anyway, it's a software you're going to use everyday for 3 or 4 years, so come to think of it, 1460 days of windows use, at about 10 cents a day. It's not that bad. Sure it's not as good as the linux deal, where you get everything thing for free, bt still. Okay, so maybe this was a bit extreme exemple, but still, I think's it's normal that sellers encourage people to buy their OS. And the ones who are installing pirated version should be closed down. Forcing users tough would be bad, since I don't see why I should buy Windows98SE again since I already have legally bought it elsewhere.
No, but it doesn't mention that the customer might want to cover themselves in lemon curd either does it?
More to the point, it doesn't say that you should only sell Microsoft operating systems preinstalled. Just a "licensed, preinstalled operating system" which in my book includes free ones too.
Now where did i put that jar...
Your argument overlooked a BIG factor - a store is a "public accomodation" and its business license requires the owner to make certain compromises. No compromise, no business license.
The easiest way to illustrate this is to play "Guess who's coming to dinner." An individual, in his own home, may refuse to allow a guest to enter on the basis of race, ethnic origin, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc.
But a restaurant owner *can't* refuse to allow a guest to dine in his restaurant, legally a "public accomodation," on the basis of some or all of those criteria. (The exact list varies with local laws.) He may only refuse a patron for legitimate reasons, e.g., the restaurant is full, the patron will disrupt others with his actions or odor, the patron is unsanitary (no shoes, no shirt, etc.)
Likewise a private home owner can refuse to allow someone to stay overnight for any reason - or no reason at all. A hotel can't. A private car owner can refuse to give someone a lift, a public car (taxi, limo) can't. A privately funded school can refuse to educate people, a publicly funded one can't. (Again, all subject to "common-sense" exceptions like the facility being filled, legitimate perception of threat to staff or others, etc.)
I'm still undecided whether this is a Good Thing or a Bad Thing (it depends on how much is shoe-horned in through the back door), but no matter what you think about it this invalidates the argument that Constitutional protections only protect you from the government. They also apply, to a surprising extent, to any business entity which doesn't employ you.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
For your work in enlightened posts I knight you Sir Magic,
Rise, Sir Magic.
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
It's amusing to me that one of Microsoft's biggest (or possibly just the most vocal) fans on Slashdot, AFCArchvile, is also one of the biggest proponents of pirating their content. Hypocritical? Naaaaahhhh......
Free music from Jack Merlot.
What the Dell salesperson you spoke to meant to say was this:
The model you were ordering was part of a line that includes Windows. Dell pays a license fee for EVERY laptop from that model line, whether or not they load Windows on it (thank you, consent decree of 1994, for NOTHING). You would need to purchase a model from a Dell product line that does NOT include Windows.
The salesperson didn't offer to sell you a laptop from a non-Windows product line for one of two reasons:
1. Dell doesn't have any non-Windows laptops
2. Dell does have non-Windows laptops, but ordering one would be too much of a hassle for the salesperson, and processing the order would not be worth his time. This would be the case if, for example, in the time it takes him to sell you one laptop without Windows (filling out paperwork, requesting a non-standard software load, etc), he could sell two laptops WITH Windows to two other customers. Since he's working on a commission basis, he'd rather sell you NO laptop and get on to easier customers than make you happy with Dell.
You mean like blood evidence, DNA, shoe prints? OJ walked because he had great lawyers and a stupid criminal prosecution team starting with the cops.
Sometimes it doesn't completely crash (no blue screen of death), but it won't be functioning right, and will require a reboot. Other times the simple act of trying to play an mp3 in Winamp, or any random movie file, will cause the system to freeze.
If it hasn't crashed on you yet, just wait. Its time will come.
Why does being a racist bastard mean that your testimony is invalid?
It doesn't necessarily. It can hurt your credibility if you don't have quite a bit of corroborating evidence though. People aren't likely to accept the word of a known racist bastard testifying against a member of a minority race without something substantial to back it up.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Actually, you can buy the tresses for a roof prefabricated at a lumberyard/building supply. Likewise for the panels that form the body of a roof. Not exactly the same as buying the roof in toto but certainly good enough for my skill-free carpentry and my in-laws' guest cottage :).
This might be analogous to buying a computer without an OS. Four walls, no roof, is only marginally useful. A computer, no OS, is only marginally useful (space-heater?). However, they imply that the only roof worth putting on a PC is Windows - which, while not a flagrant antitrust violation, does fly in the face of all the windy claims they made about competition in the PC market and free markets and so on, so forth, in court.
Were it not for that astounding piece of hypocrisy this would be nothing but standard marketing boilerplate. With the context, of course, it becomes, if not scandalous, at least amusing.
--
--
There is no premature anti-fascism. -Ernest Hemingway
It gets better some of the restore disks will not work if you flash/upgrade the bios, the video card, get a new hardrive and the list goes on....
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
A Dick and a Bush .. You know somebody's gonna get screwed.
War is necrophilia.
>from what I hear, speaking English is illegal in France.
The moron who told you that was probably drunk
or under the influence of some strange substance
or perhaps he was a brit.
I don't know who John_Prophet is, whether his cat or car was actually stolen, or why someone would be imitating him, but seeing such an inflammatory statement posted by someone who had sounded perfectly reasonable in the parent comment kinda tipped me off that something was weird.
--
No more e-mail address game - see my user info. Time for revenge.
Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
...makes calls to the win 3.1 GUI libraries. It won't run unless the box has win 3.1 on it. (Well, it may work with another older version of windows, I've never had one to try)
I've done this *alot*. Always annoyed me to have to install DOS, then Win 3.1, then Win95. Now the win98 upgrade will let you install if you just insert the win95 CD briefly as a license check.
This whole naked PC annoys me. I have *never* purchased a PC with a preinstalled OS. back when I only had on PC, I always ran it as a dual-boot Windows/Linux system anyway, why would I want Windows only preinstalled?
If some computer manufacturer tried to get me get preinstalled Windows because they're more qualifed to install it, I'd feel insulted.
-Wintermute, and before I get tarred with the piracy brush, I have *legal* copies of Windows 95, 98, NT Workstation, and 2K Professional right now. And *none* of them are on more than one computer.
...with a CD-RW. After I upgraded from Win98 to Win2K, I went to hp's site for new drivers. Only to find the only way to get the CD-RW to work was to first run a firmware upgrade (that didn't even work in Win2K, I had to temporarily transfer the CD-RW to my roomate's Win98 box to run it) and then order a new software CD from HP for $9.95. Umm, I don't even *want* the software, just the damn driver! Bunch 'o thieves I say....
-Wintermute
Install SuSE 7.0 professional and your struggle
will be to find room on your 30G hard drive
to fit everything and still leave room for
making CDs.
Instead of making ridiculous remarks on things
you don't know about, why don't you do some
research before making an ass of yoursef?
I could see them doing this in order to hit people with a double-whammy...
Pay for the copy of windows that you don't get a CD for, and pay again when you need the CD because you changed something in the control panel, or if you need to flat-out reinstall the OS.
---
Where can the word be found, where can the word resound? Not here, there is not enough silence.
"Where shall the word be found, where will the word resound? Not here, there is not enough silence." -T.S. Eliot
It's also a nice piece of psychology. By talking as though there is no other option than Windows they encourage that view in the vendor's minds.
If it does NOT clearly say that it is to be used with the hardware sold with the copy then anything that they might want to enforce is un-enforceable.
Basically - you are bound to the EULA at the time you accept it. they cannot change it at whim after your agreement unless that is written into the EULA.
if it dont sat it, then they cant do a damn thing about it.
Basically, install linux. or BSD, or BeOS, or some real O/S. This legaleeze bullsheep that the lawyer scum come up with (Yes lawyers are scum! and we really need to start making them illegal! Wouldn't that be a hoot!) is designed to screw everyone that is not the client that they are writing it for. I still really wonder if a non-signed agreement is binding. I really wish that someone with a hellish amount of money would challenge it in court. Imagine if it was ruled that a non signed agreement was un-enforceable! the software world would collapse! People getting software for free? No company can survive that way..... oh, wait, nevermind......
What do I do? exactly what I want. just dont leave any evidence for them to find.
(NOTE: i lived in Muskegon,MI which is the home of the software piracy cop group - shareware software professional whatever morons (i forget) I went to a seminar of theirs, and talked to their group. they are pretty dumb technical wise.)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Not only are the PCs I buy "naked", they're not even assembled. I guess you could say they are dis/un-membered.
When I buy a system I order the mobo, ram, drives, network and gfx cards etc exactly as I want them, and needless to say a Windows OS (or any other) is not in my list of required parts.
Windows is shit.
This silly analogy pisses me off! Selling a computer without the cover is like selling a house without a roof. Selling it without an OS would be like a house without furniture. And who the fuck wants her / his house to be pre-installed without furniture? Especially furniture that breaks down when you use it and that can't be moved around if you don't like it!
Sorry, M$ never fails to piss me off!
The guy's probably 27 years old.
--------
Life is a race condition: your success or failure depends on whether you get the work done on time.
But if I want a machine to put Linux on - without getting MS Windows anywhere near it, why should I be obliged to buy MS Windows? If I tell a vendor I'd like a PC without an operating system, I expect not to be forced to buy MS Windows "because I might pirate it otherwise". Am I all of a sudden guilty until proven innocent?
Perhaps all machines should come pre-installed with Solaris too, to prevent piracy of Solaris...
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
This is NOT bad for software developers anymore than open laws are bad for laywers. The same thing can be said for any other proffesional group, doctors, engineers, consultants. The product is not a shiny binary, but the knowledge of how it works, how to fix it, and how to get things done. This is best done with open, hopefully free, source. The whole MS nightmare is comming to an end fast. When it comes to source, sharing is just going to be better for everyone. No one is going to keep you from charging $200/hour to make everything work right, and it will work when you are finished.
Microsoft's strong arm tactics are an abomination that infringes on all of us. Bill Gates just about invented software copyrights to close people out of the source he stole from dumpsters and got other people to write. The "naked PC" page is an attempt to maintain revenue for his broken bloat code/advert package and stem the tide of defectors. Dealers know full well that they will be blamed is some warez dude goes and pirates the Win2000 they sold. This page is to remind them to pay up or get beat up. The whole philosophy is just wrong and I'm glad it's about to eat a dusty death. I fart in their general direction!
Poster has no desire to infringe on MS software, and MS should be very concerned about that.
There are those restore CD that are tied to a
particular bios and motherboard. Your motherboard
died and you're fucked.
Ummmm..... no, they no longer get the original CD, remember, Bill?
Wonder if you could point out this page to your OEM dealer when they refuse to provide anything other than a machine-specific restore disk. Nah. Redmond has never been required to make sense or be consistent before, why start now?
Edith Keeler Must Die
I recently bought a 'Naked PC' (one without an Operating system) and installed several OSes on it (FreeBSD, two flavors of linux [Vector and
Redhat 6.2 -- Redhat will probably come off as soon as I come up with a better build environment for my customer's binaries], and your own
Windows 95). Three of these OSes are free, and the fourth is legal (I have the orginal CD and certificate of Authenticity to prove it). The
machine it was orginally installed on is long dead, and the hard drive recycled into an incense stick holder (well, what do *you* do with dead
hard drives?). Because of this, and innumerable other possible examples, I feel that your article is unfair and misleading. I understand your
wish that people not pirate your software so that you can receive fair payment for your work, however, to imply that PC sellers should not sell
computers without OSes because the only thing that these computers can be used for is piracy is wrong. It is entirely possible that a customer
already has a legal copy of a Microsoft OS (otherwise why would you sell all of your OSes in boxes, as well as preinstalled?) or a legal copy of a non-Microsoft OS (Linux, SCO, *BSD, BeOS, etc). To imply to PC sellers that 'Naked PCs' are only piracy risks, with no mention of the other
reasons customers might want such a box is irresponsible. I hope you will take these points into consideration and alter your article
appropriately.
Thank you,
(signature deleted)
Yes, I sent it. I'll post the response, if any.
Are any of these stupid 'recoverly only' pre-installs effective at all at curbing piracy? It might stop Joe Bloe from copying his CD for a friend, but it punishes the legitimate uesrs of Windows without any real pay off. In fact, it encourages piracy; why deal with this bullshit when you can just warez a copy and do what you like? Maybe the idea is to get the end users mad at pirates, but I think the only people they're getting mad at is Microsoft.
That's been my experience with any sort of tech support. They *especially* don't want to hear, "hey, I got this [pos-hardware] working under Linux; any ideas on getting it to work under Windows with your official drivers?" (yeah, I know, wording the question like that is an invitation to hostile behavior.)
Totally offtopic, but I just logged out of my Netaddress account, and here's the cute message I just got:
Error Occurred While Processing Request
Error Diagnostic Information
Server busy or unable to fulfill request. The server is unable to fulfill your request due to extremely high traffic or an unexpected internal
error. Please attempt your request again (if you are repeatedly unsuccessful you should notify the site administrator). (Location Code:
25)
Please inform the site administrator that this error has occurred (be sure to include the contents of this page in your message to the
administrator).
Yay, Microsoft!
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Not only do they do double talk, but they dont follow the terms of their own license.
Doesnt the license say that if I dont agree with it, I can return it for a full refund? I know there was a Windows refund day and all that but how many people actually got their refund?
If they dont follow such an integral part of their license, then why should I follow it? After all this behemoth of a company has just charged me $200 for something I dont want.
Of course this is only if you buy from an OEM and not if you build your PC yourself.
When Microsoft starts giving out refunds for copies that ppl dont want, I myself have 2 machines which dont have Windows on it and have paid for windoze and can return 2 OEM copies still in shrinkwrap.
Sometimes you just have to use what they use at work for at least one machine. Besides, my beloved Id shoot-em-ups only recently became available on other platforms.
dont you have to use DPMI to access BIOS int calls in nasm? I am just learning it right now, so I am not really sure about protected mode yet...
mov ax, 13h
int 10h
mov ax, 13h
int 10h
Actually, since the OEM did the replacing, it is the same computer, at least as far as licensing goes.
I think the direction it will go in is not "installing software on one computer" but "installing software on one mass storage device" (aka hard drive)
Consider yourself lucky they didn't want you to send it in to service. God forbid they actually have to fucking fix something!
Bite my yammer.
as far as i can understand this is correct. I was reading a copy of the OEM instalation guide for windoze me today and saw that OEM's can now protect thier copy of the software from getting ported by placing code in the flash rom bios chip that windoze will not load without. In fact it is not an option but a requirement, thank you M$.
For the Luddites of the world who resist computers, consider using computers to resist.
Not true - OEM installs are available to any one who sets themselves up as such. I used to resell PCs and I bought these from a small OEM supplier who built them to my specs. The windows install supplied was an OEM only variety (very handy would work as an upgrade or a full install without requiring entry of the product id until the user logged on).
The same supplier would also happily sell me either naked machines or machines with linux/bsd pre-installed. They charged $5 for a linux pre-install and supplied a 3 disc set with it - and this was 4 years ago.
.sig
I just visited one of your posts on being a consultant in the 80's and 90's. I would think that you would like free software as much as you like being a consultant.
I overheard a salesguy at CompUSA tell someone that the modem worked faster if it was installed internally.
Did you try intalling it in him?
.sig
I think they might also be including those (often horrible, sometimes completely non-functional) "restore discs." If the manufacturers are such experts, you'd think they could do those right. (I'm thinking of the one that came with a Toshiba Equiuum at work...never could get the thing to install properly. But of course, the PQ Drive Image disc that my supervisors assistant put together worked just fine)
What if I assemble my apps on another machine from scratch, and run them off the floppy disk (starting from the boot sector)? Surely I don't need an OS, then.
--------
Life is a race condition: your success or failure depends on whether you get the work done on time.
Do you really think Kde 2 and Gnome 1.4 will make any difference? Who will use these desktops? Nerds. The same people who are already using a unix like OS.
Mac OS X will allow Apple to hold its ground and perhaps grow a little. Although based on BSD, most Mac users won't know that or care. They will just know that it runs smoother and networks better and runs their same old Mac apps just fine.
Where is Linux preinstalled in mass market retail outlets? Nowhere. You have to order special order Linux preinstalled and pay MORE, not less.
So, people are happy to pay the Windows tax. You made fun of MS when Win 2000 sales were not up to the projected level, but now Win ME sales are skyrocketing. Win ME is preinstalled on almost EVERY PC sold to consumers and on almost EVERY new corporate desktop PC as well. Not only do consumers get Win ME preinstalled, but most PC retail outlets are offering a $400 discount for a 3 year MSN subscription, a lockin for .NET. People are taking the discount and paying later without a second thought - by the tens of millions.
Linux - you can't give it away. MS - folks are willng to pay! Kde - bah. Gnome - humbug. Scroodge still owns the shop, and he ain't giving away no freebies to suckers this Christmas.
Have a nice day!
Actually they haven't. They only admitted that it is time consuming for their customers to install from scratch on their own. It is a good start, though...
My other computer runs FreeBSD too.
My reply to Microsoft is below:
I can only wonder if I'll get anything aside from a canned reply. Somehow, I think not.
--
Don't trust your Government. (Update:
*kerchunk* *beep* "...Operator."
Dell does ship naked PCs, at least in their server lines. The Poweredge 1300 (FreeBSD) I have sitting here was delivered to me 'naked' after I selected the option "No OS installed." on the order form. I got a nice formatted HD, and didn't even have to waste my time formatting it again; plug it in, boot the FreeBSD CD, Done. I may really dislike Dell's workstations, but I love their servers.
Matt
Don't take life so seriously; it isn't permanent.
Doh, I meant to say:
I didn't even have to waste my time formatting it again to delete Windows(TM).
I need to start using the Preview button.
Don't take life so seriously; it isn't permanent.
Unix will never surpass windows in the marketplace until it becomes as easy to install and use as Windows
Windows isn't easy to install (part of the reason MS would prefer OEM installs over simply selling the thing) nor is it easy to use, many people have huge difficulties using it. Compounded by Windows insisting that end users carry out system admin tasks.
Linux is not a consumer-level OS, students, grandmothers, sales guys, and secretaries don't understand it on one sitting.
What on earth makes you think Windows is "consumer lead" it's Marketing Lead. A major part of it is to force people to upgrade every 18 months or so.
Goto:
https:/ /oe mpub.microsoft.com/scripts/oemapps/tools/feedback/ feedback.asp
and post your disgust. I did.
As did I:
--
lizardb0y
Home of the Lizard
lizardb0y
http://www.vintage8bit.com/
The way it works is that Microsoft gives the OEM (Dell in this case) a steep discount, if the OEM does certain things to 'restrict' piracy. One of those things is to refuse to sell OS-less machines, which makes sense becuase (face it) lots of people would just stick a pirated copy of Windows on it if they could save $50.
What sucks is that Dell will *only* give you the stupid BIOS locked OEM licenced Windows.
You can't ask to pay $100 more and get real Windows licence that you can transfer between machines.
What's even worse is that even if you have a full freight Windows 2000 site licence and all the correct paperwork and even ILOVEMS licence plates, Dell will still charge you for that copy of Windows 98. This isn't just about screwing over home users or guys who resell 98 CDs at computer shows -- Microsoft is forcing their own customers to double pay.
When I hear the word 'innovation', I reach for my pistol.
Why shouldn't we expect them to admit that?
Because they're marketing people. Their whole purpose is to insist that there is no other OS but MS. Ideally the effect should be countereacted by a large number of competitors saying "We have an OS, and no others are better". Since Microsoft is significantly larger than all other vendors put together, the counter arguments are drowned out a bit, but in theory its a good system.
Honesty and objectivity guidlines for marketing people would be interesting of course, but I don't think its ever going to happen.
ROFL, Microbytes! I have more friends that work in their various stores than I can count. I'd never do it myself though.
(Yes, I live in Montreal)
Matt
Don't take life so seriously; it isn't permanent.
True, but at least if you're building yourself, you know you're getting good parts and not whatever sh*t the OEM could get at a price that enabled him to meet a price target. It's a sure-fire method to avoid WinHardware, Piece-o'-Sh^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HPC Chips motherboards, processors from companIes that waNt To gEt a Lock on the market, etc. If you're so inclined, it also enables you to avoid the "Windows tax" that many OEMs try to impose (with Microsoft's encouragement, it would seem).
The first machine I built, way back in the day, was a 286-12 on which I installed DR DOS 6.0. That, I think, is the only OS for which I've ever paid money. I picked up OS/2 Warp 3 at the IBM booth at Fall Comdex '94, Microsoft provided me with NFRs of both Win95 and Win98 (since I was working for Best Buy at the time those came out), and Linux is free from any FTP site. (I paid for the boxed SuSE 5.3 once...I guess that means DR DOS isn't the only OS for which I've paid money. :-) )
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
That WAS a good laugh. I mean, I've never read better piece of M$ FUD... I propose we vote this as FUD of the Year.
<flamebait>
As for having preinstalled software, c'mon! I've been around quite a few of them (from friends, I build my own systems) and the software installed was simply pathetic.
Lets see what you typically end up with:
- Win9x
- MS Word 97 or WordPerfect (bliaaaah) or some Lotus applications (I've been around many such installs)
- Outlook (gee whiz)
- AOL internet
and the following less-than-needed software:...which, personally, I think is rather annoying, if not offensive.
OK, maybe some of you will think I'm having a weird day by that last sentence, but I need to have the choice NOT to have my PC loaded with all that cr@p.
Finally, because many of my friends who happen to be less computer-literate also get annoyed by these gismos most of the times, they often call me to make a clean install of the OS anyway... So at least this way the manufacturers could spare me/us the time of formatting etc.
</flamebait>
off for another beer... @%-)
Trian
I'm no longer fed up with MS Windows: I go rid of them
So that pretty much sums it as buying a house with furniture already kept inside.
.. it is late and I must sleeep!!!!
And if you have your own furniture, no more home owners insurance for you and the builder wont agree to sell the house without the furniture.
BLAH !!
For one exactly how is the slackware file system different then any other llinux file system.
For another he can not get 70% of software installed on a linux system and his record on a bas system is only 40%. What kind of BOZO keeps using systems when he can not even load software on it!.
This guy is a clueless wonder and should be using a mac. I got my 72 year old dad a mac and his compile percentage is 0%. I would recommend a mac for this xonix7 luser too. that way he does not have to compile anything at all.
Most people are ashamed of their ignorance and don't flaunt their failures but this guy seems to want to trumpet to the rest of the world that he is incapable of compiling a program under linux. This is a opposite of insightful get it?
A Dick and a Bush .. You know somebody's gonna get screwed.
War is necrophilia.
"Fair Use" applies only to copyright... because the software is "licensed" under original strict terms that you agreed with before you ever first used it, the concept of "fair use" is no longer applicable as you've already waived any rights you might have had under fair use doctrine.
Nice try. Book publishers tried to do the very same thing in the early part of this century. They printed notices that the book was licensed, not sold and attempted to control the price at which copies were sold to the public.
There was a landmark Supreme Court case (210 U.S. 339) which said that attempts to restrict the sale of a copy of a copyrighted work with a license which impermissably expanded the right of the copyright holder beyond those granted by the copyright statute.
Now, I'm not aware of any case which has tried to apply this SC precedent to software sales, but the legal theory still stands. The sale of a copy of software is still the sale of a copy. You have rights stemming from Federal Copyright Law. The license "agreement" can not take those away.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
Microsoft marketing department, hard at work.
I especially liked implication that the only alternative to shipping a legal copy of Windows is for customers to steal an OS--all goes back to BillG's paranoid outlook on software, no?
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
those companies who use the Microsoft Open License Agreement or other license arrangements from Microsoft. Getting a preloaded system means they have to pay for Windows twice!
People shape laws. Not the other way around.
This last bit here is what's really troubling to me. The rest of the comments are at least vaguely reasonable from a business standpoint: computer builders should offer to install the OS for their users for a variety of good reasons. The last line, though, strikes me as being a threat. When they ask what the seller is leaving his customers and himself open to by selling a naked PC, it makes it sound as though MS considers doing so to be contributory infringement if the user subsequently installs an illegal copy of Windows. They are admittedly showing some subtlety by putting it down at the very bottom like that, but it still suggests that the seller may get himself into legal trouble by doing so.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
Also, once you leave the store, that's it, the security guard loses any ability to detain you. They have to contact the police and leave you to your own devices.
Rich
How a pirated copy of Windows is any more or less succeptable to viruses. They should explain that on the page.
It's a claim Microsoft make quite frequently, additional FUD. Though AFAIK the only virused MS software known to exist was some beta stuff put out by Microsoft themselves.
I just don't understand how this case is not open-shut. It is just another example of how frustrating the United States is. Forget marijuana laws which make no sense, lax penalties on convicted violent offenders, the tax bracket system, and the electoral college, wtf is up with this? This should have taken ONE AFTERNOON of a court's time. Instead millions of taxpayer dollars go toward fighting this case. Wtf, I ask you America, wtf?
Or about 5 minutes if you put it on the "Judge Judy" television show.
When will people get it thru their THICK skulls that installing an OS (BE it Linux, or Windows) is NOT THAT HARD!!!! Just RTFM!
Remember that manuals are a (chargable) extra with Windows. Whilst a boxed Linux distribution will come with a comprehensive manual all you get with a boxed Windows distribution is a thin book with virtually no useful information in.
So let's say you buy a computer now. After an year a friend wants to buy that computer from you, but he is going to install Linux on it and doesn't want the Windows license and your brand new 2GHz AMD computer needs Windows.
How can you move that license to your new computer without trashing it?
MS keeps double talking. They wont even send Windoze with pre-installed machines, but they dont want it any other way.
snowulf.com
You may own the physical CD, but you do not own teh software on the CD, that is owned by Microsoft. They basically give you the CD for free, and charge you for a license to use the software on it, according to their own contract that they specify. ie if you use it, you abide by it, unless you can show that it was not a legal contract in a court.
You can quite happily resell the CD as that is yours, but the person you sell it to would have to buy a license to use Windows off microsoft.
However, I want to know how this fits in to selling second-hand pcs...if i buy one do i have to relicense everything? i don;t think so, as its all on the same machine...
hmm, ramble on.
== Perl generally does the right thing, unless you want it to do something else ==
Does it not boil down to quantitative advantage(s)? Think of a PC, as a product-mix: Hardware + Software -separating the two, and leaving the option in customers hands, is conducive to more competition, and resultant better quality and better price.
It sure leaves the onus of making a technical decision( choice of OS) in the customer's hands. I think most of the people can do that now.
The un-initiated ones will be , like always, left at the mercy of the big-company-with-big-marketing-dollars, or to blade of the salesman standing at the counter.
yes, "naked" PC is better.
Voltaire, " God is dead",
God, " Voltaire is dead".
- i;d like to buy a nice computer that talks - sorry sir, all we've got is this slug
- does it talk?
- yes sir
- I'll take it!
not that i have anything against slugs...they;re lovely in a slimy not lovely sort of way...
== Perl generally does the right thing, unless you want it to do something else ==
I sometimes upgrade my system, without buying a new copy of windoze. That's legal, right?
More likely it's laying stunned in a coffin whilst big business lobbiests stand with hammers passing out the nails. (Or at least this appears to be the case in the US, in the EU it appears to still be alive and kicking but building up lactic acid.)
So... Microsoft says that they are not a Monopoly.. but... They seem to think... that they are the only operating system... but... they're not a monopoly.... Damn... and I thought I was doing OK in Econ 101... hmm...
"On the Internet, everyone is an equal until they prove themselves to be a moron." - Emmanuel Goldstein
They're simply extremely lazy people and don't want to work, so I have to pay for them.
THanks for being alert. In answer to your question, I have apparently been singled out by at least one moderately annoying (and mildly retarded) troll. His latest escalation seems to be that he's going to post as my alter-ego (John_Profit) and attempt to be even more annoying than he was when he started calling me a nazi.
I wonder if he'll ever get really clever?
-The Reverend (I am not a Nazi nor a Troll)
-The Reverend (I am not a Nazi nor a Troll)
=(.\')=
Book publishers tried to do the very same thing in the early part of this century. They printed notices that the book was licensed, not sold and attempted to control the price at which copies were sold to the public.
Many books still do contain a condition about resale, except that it is self nullifying and meaningless.
Doesn't SuSE 7 use Reiser by default? (journaling).
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
It's probably best to buy a full new copy of Windows everytime you make any changes to the hardware of your original OEM'd system or else you may be in violation of copyright law as determined by Microsoft.
You mean "best for Microsoft". It isn't a matter of coyright law, copyright law is quite unambiguious on the issue, since it controls copying not usage. (Software produces have deliberatly tried to imply that "usage implies copying", if book or CDROM producess used an argument like, "it's copied to a image on the retina" or "it's copied into sound waves" they'd be laughed at. Even though this is the same argument as "it gets copied into memory".)
The issue here is the validity (if any) of shrink wrapped software licences.
Otherwise, who knows what you're leaving your customers--and yourself-- open to?
Thanks for the note - I hadn't thought of that, and though it would still be difficult because of the lack of alternate boot devices on most PC notebooks (unlike, say Powerbooks with SCSI or Firewire), I can see that it would work as long as the package database wasn't also destroyed (which isn't guaranteed in this case, the damage was pretty scattershot). Since I don't have a Redhat CD, I think I'm still going to put FreeBSD on it (which actually doesn't track the main distribution's files via the package system, but will replace everything but packages, /etc, and /usr/local via the binary upgrade procedure, from one statically-linked app (sysinstall)).
;)
Fortunately the machine didn't have any important unbacked-up data on it - but it's supposed to be my on-loan backup while my other machine is down due to a hardware failure! I hate when lightning strikes twice.
Finally I must point out that rpm is likely underrated because it's just so incredibly obtuse; I don't know what those people were smoking when they dreamed up the command-line structure, but I want some.
-- Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly. ~ Robert Doisneau
Your argument overlooked a BIG factor - a store is a "public accomodation" and its business license requires the owner to make certain compromises.
... on the basis of ... race, ethnic origin, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc.
Of which the US Constitution says precisely zip.
Can your city, county, state, or federal legislature enact laws granting us additional rights? Even rights protecting us from each other? Sure they can. In fact, that is their primary purpose. But the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights have nothing to do with it.
But a restaurant owner *can't* refuse to allow a guest to dine in his restaurant
Of which, I might point out, "wearing a backpack" is noticeably absent. As it is from the Constituion.
The exact list varies with local laws.
Hell, you even agree with me. Local laws. Maybe my town has a law saying that I cannot discriminate who gets access to my store based on choice of footware. In that case, I cannot kick someone out because they are wearing sandals. But this is a local ordinance, and has nothing to do with the protections against unreasonable search and seizure in the Fourth Amendment.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
No offense, does the average "I just want to check my email" user really have a use for learning how to use the command line?
that Windows is time consuming, expensive and troublesome!
Most stores lower their markup when you purchase over a certain ammount.
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
What the enterprise customer does is set up an initial install with the OS and application and then clone it to new PCs with Norton Ghost. (I recently used the personal edition for $99 to back up a freshly installed dual-boot windows system and I think it's just dandy; now comprehends linux ext2 filesystems).
The problem is that if the enterprise customer bought the PC from a tradition Microsoft OEM, it will come preinstalled with Windows, and they'll be required to pay twice for it, as discussed at Paying Twice for Windows and Microsoft licensing deals confuse customers, study says.
Eventually Microsoft yielded somewhat, but only for the largest customers, as discussed in Commentary: Microsoft hasn't totally reversed its policy on fees.
This is a problem because traditional Microsoft OEMs are contractually obligated by Microsoft to install some operating system on every machine they sell. Microsoft claims that this is to cut down on piracy, but it has the added effect of discouraging people from trying out other operating systems.
The solution? Encourage the enterprise customers to purchase hardware with no operating system at all installed on it from OEMs that have no relationship with Microsoft. Then the customer can do their Ghost cloning without any worry about double license fees. This will work well both for the large enterprise customers that may have been helped by the minor adjustment in Microsoft's policy, as well as the smaller enterprise that were no helped out.
If you work for one of the traditional linux hardware vendors, I'd like to suggest to you that you view Microsoft Windows enterprise customers as a new market opportunity, not just to sell Linux to, but just to sell naked hardware to. If the hardware has no OS installed at all, there's no OS support issues to be concerned with, as there might be if you put some Linux distro on it.
Consider also that although trying to sell a machine bundled with Linux might meet resistance from a company that really does need its Windows applications to do business, selling naked hardware and emphasizing savings on Windows license fees is an easy foot in the door. Once you establish a rapport with the customer you'll have a better chance to upsell them to Linux.
Also consider that if Microsoft OEMs start losing significant hardware sells to folks like VA Linux Systems, Penguin Computing, Tuxtops and the screwdriver shops, they'll be a little more aggressive about getting Microsoft to back down on requiring an OS to be installed.
Of course, an alternative to the traditional OEM vendors is to just preinstall Debian and include a clause in the contract stating that the preinstall OS software is not supported by anyone. That just pretty much screws Microsoft up the Yin-Yang.
-- Could you use my software consulting serv
I'm so glad I live in a country where all CDs (OS or apps) cost the same $4.
The Professional version does, the Personal version still uses ext2.
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
This poster had a valid point which he was expressing through sarcasm. Few people here would argue that the Free Software Foundation's rules should be broken. Both the FSF and Microsoft distribute a contract (or copyleft or EULA or whatever you want to call it) with the software which you are expected to follow. If you don't like the contract, you don't use the software.
The FSF's GNU General Public License is vastly different from a clickwrap or shrinkwrap license like the Microsoft EULA. You don't have to accept the terms GNU General Public License in order to use the software covered by it that you've lawfully aquired. You only need to accept the license if you wish to avail yourself of the special privilages it grants above and beyond what your normal first sale and fair use rights would allow. Microsoft, however, contends that you can't use the software at all, nor avail yourself of your first sale or fair use rights without accepting their license first.
It's a legal fallacy that users are bound by clickwrap or shrinkwrap licenses in all of the world. Even within the United States depending on your jusisdiction, precedent and/or laws are either in favor of shrinkwrap licenses, against them, or non-existant. Thus, it's very well possible that many people are not bound by the EULA and therefore are free to sell or reuse their OEM copies of Windows provided they haven't agreed in any other contracts not to do so. Note that there is currently a precedent in the US against shrink wrap licenses on books: you can safely ignore wrappers that say boxed sets of novels can only be sold together and labels stating that a book may not be resold below a certain price. I see no reason why this precedent might not be applied to software in the future.
It is also unclear whether a person has accepted the terms of the GPL. After all, it is neither a signed and witnessed contract nor a physical barrier from installing the software on one's computer. However, even one does not accept the terms of the GPL, they are still free to use the software. The Free Software Foundation does not contend this fact. However, if the person is engaging in practices that would otherwise be copyright infringement (such as making and selling copies of the software) then they have two and only two choices: either they're infringing copyright, or they've accepted the terms of the GPL.
If Linux crashes "just as often", does this mean that the other OS you're comparing it to, because it also crashes "just as often" is not ready for enterprise and may never be?
I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
MS currently interpret the OEM license to be attached to the CPU rather than any other bit.
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
This is on Red Hat 6.2
This is how I treat things. I have an old PC at home that has a restore CD. The Win95 image on that CD is a complete joke -- every installed driver is a Win3.x version. When I last revived that machine I used a copy of Win95c from work, even though that sacrificed MS Works. I think the OEM code from my Windows licence even worked in it. I consider what I have done is fair by all parties involved. If it's illegal then the law needs a serious look at.
Get real. This is one reason why I won't purchase a system (unless I can buy a virgin/naked one)..
UPS Sucks
before this scrolls off into oblivion -
The NakedPC page is pure marketing - notice the image mongering: You buy a PC w/o PRODUCT - your naked, cold, in the dark, alone and friendless, exposed to the elements w/o a roof over your head. But buy a PC with PRODUCT and you've got the warm fuzzies, your cozy and sheltered, protected from the storm w/ friends to turn to for help. Pure advertising fluff that has nothing to do with, say, a new USB scanner that does not work with W2K.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
What is actually illegal is selling products with a documentation (or specs or whatever) that aren't written in French.
Since France is the #1 touristic destination in the world, tourists would have a hard time if they weren't allowed to speak English (or whatever language they happen to speak at home).
Of course the French will never admit to being able to speak English in front of foreigners, but that's just because we love listening at Americans trying to speak French. :)
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
Basically - you are bound to the EULA at the time you accept it. they cannot change it at whim after your agreement unless that is written into the EULA.
Not quite, such agreements are governed by the "law of the land". If appropriate statute and case law gives a person an "unaliable right" to negotiate a contract. Then at best any clause in a contract stating that they can't is invalid, at worst the whole contract is void. (Hence such licences typically containing a clause to the effect that all clauses must be treated as independant entities.)
Now, if you're talking about the snippy remarks about Dubya getting elected and imposing a national operating system, that was an admittedly sick joke, and nobody would be happier than I to see it remain entirely fantasy (or nightmare). However, I wouldn't rule it out that easily- the idea was, 'Here's an outlandish, nightmare projection that I HOPE can't possibly happen!', hence the 'I'm picturing Dubya getting elected' rather than 'This is going to happen! The sky is falling, we're all going to DIE!' It's a combination joke/scare tactic and shouldn't be written off _too_ easily: remember how badly Microsoft wants to in effect impose a Microsoft Tax on everyone and not have to do any more work, just do new icons and count money. You shouldn't be so quick to assume they can't get paid a tax administered by the government- haven't you heard of corporate welfare? Dubya's just the sort to rubberstamp such a proposal, too.
Sorry- you strike out ;) you have no argument but ridicule and you're asking people to stop thinking. I'm not making these arguments because of karma troll bonus points, but because the situation both alarms and fascinates me, and I want to put the same evidence in front of people and see if they reach the same conclusion. In this case, I am taking Bill Parish's figures on the breakdown of MS income (I believe he got this from their annual reports and renamed the pie pieces?) for the argument that they're making more in the stock market than they are selling products, I'm assuming the top MS people are _not_ stupid idiots, and with regard to cutting projects I don't think I really need to remind slashdotters of the list of abandoned 'strategic' MS projects that tied up competition's resources for long enough to take care of the threat through further MS expansion. The difference is that I'm suggesting there is no MS project that couldn't be abandoned or defunded if PR activities would return greater profits through stock manipulation. That said, canning Office would _hurt_ the stock price not help it, and you'll not see them admitting to such a thing. On the other hand, Farenheit/COOL/C#/.NET and on and on- which will be the next to quietly fade off the radar, and do you think these fade-offs happen because someone at MS _lost_ _track_ of the project? They're killed because new products are not the most profitable thing MS could be doing, and they're killed quietly so it doesn't hurt the stock price- which _is_ the most profitable thing MS is doing.
You may now post "*yawn*" in the classic tradition of lazy-ass Usenet trolls ;)
Don't they realize that all the linux geeks who get windows bundled with their computers will return the cd's unopened for a refund? Or does that no longer work?
On another note, why is piracy suddenly such a big worry for Microsoft?
on canvas with acrylic paint :-) Am I violating the licensing terms? I gotta do something with that OEM copy of Windoze now that I have Linux loaded on my machine. Is it ok if I break the CD into several pieces making it totally unusable before applying to canvas and painting? You know representing the forthcoming (?) MS break-up. Anyone want an original acrylic artwork that includes MS Win95SR2 and other M$ software?
"Open code, in other words, can be a check on state power." -Lawrence Lessig
Who said I am gonna leave it without one? I just don't want the stuff you wish me to install.
Whose time does it save? When that poor OEM will discover that they lost half an hour to Ghost Windows on my new hard disk, and I simply fdisk'ed and newfs'ed the hell out of it, in order to install FreeBSD, they will probably think that they lost time, instead of saving any of it.
Not to sound like I do not respect the time and effort that OEM vendors have taken to learn how to use and administer Windows machines. But I have yet to find one vendor with expertise in FreeBSD or Linux. And `Windows expertise' is not valuable to me. At all.
What I am trying to say until now is that, every single sentence of that article in Microsoft's site--every single part of it--can be contradicted or found in error.
The subject of my posting is however about the fact that I still do not believe that I have already shown this article to my manager and he found everything said by Microsoft reasonable.
Oops! Something wrong here...
---
My other computer runs FreeBSD too.
I'm not sure what's worse -- the idea that anybody buying a PC with no OS will be pirating Windows, or the fact that the whole page implies that it's the dealer's responsibility to install an OS on the PC so that the buyer won't be tempted to break the law and pirate software.
Next they'll be getting upset when a customer says "I'll have 10, with Windows, just the certificates please, since it's a waste of both our times for you to put that bog standard OEM setup on."
There is a world of difference between a court presuming you are guilty of something and MS putting up a web page saying something. MS can't put you in jail etc.
By all rights it's MS who should be being put in jail. but you can't jail corporations. (Whilst still maintaining a legal fiction that they are "people".)
1) OEM's sell more then hardware (normally). They also are selling a bunch of preinstalled software that has been tested (hopefully) together on the specific hardware they are selling. They pay less for the software they install for generally three reasons. Bulk selling, crippleware, and/or taking over the support side of the software. The larger the OEM the more inflexible the support part of the package is. The OEM copy of windows is legally tied to the machine for all three reasons. The bulk selling part has been more restricted by the early DOJ stuff (pre anittrust). The crippleware has to do with the license, the OEM windows can't be transferred (and neither is most OEM software). The support side is the biggest part. The OEM filters are the "basic" stuff out and any real issues are fed to ms by the OEM.
2) The bigger OEM's support people expect a certain environment to debug; modify things too much (repartition, reinstall, etc) and they can't follow the little scripts they are given to debug issues. This is a small part why OEM's didn't latch on to the free beos offer, it was a complete unknown support wise. There is a real investment in picking up and selling an OS.
People should understand what they are buying into with the OEM they go with, it's not just hardware. If you plan on doing things with your computer that isn't the OEM setup, make sure you understand your OEM's policy on it. I think there is a small market for a naked pc OEM that is completely OS agnostic when it comes to support (they only support hardware) and does no preloading.
As far as this page, it's the ms "be legal" program. Which is a marketing and ad campaign. A number of small to medium size companies use how easy it is to just copy software to avoid paying (I can think of three real fast that I've had dealings with. It does happen, which is funny since it's the exact opposite of "double" license problem with big companies). One part of the ad campaign is to reduce the naked pc market, but geez the ads are saying that you should install windows or anything.
If your favorite OEM is convinced by the adverts then
1) Ask them to support the OS you want
2) Find a new OEM that does meet your needs.
I overheard a salesguy at CompUSA tell someone that the modem worked faster if it was installed internally. Enough said.
It doesn't work with Netscape 4.75 either. And I don't have IE. (RH 7.0)
Read the liscense punk. On WinME it states that the OS belongs to the hardware, and under no circumstances can it be used on different hardware. Of course, that was on a 'Restoration CD'... I just want to know why a restore cd has an EULA attached to it. Its not like it will run on any different hardware- even upgrades kill it (actually had to buy a copy of windows because of that problem last week)- so you aren't going to pirate it. I guess being abusive is just good for profits.
-Elendale (and fair use is dead)IANAT (I Am Not A Troll)
-Elendale
IANAT (I Am Not A Troll)
> OEM copies are illegal to distribute without a computer BUT it doesn't limit fair use
You say that as if "Fair Use" even exists anymore.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
True, but you can't force people to enter your store (as you aknowledged). What M$ is doing is equivalent to running a grocery store and then requiring anyone who wants to by groceries to buy from your store first, which also requires you to enter the store.
-ElendaleIANAT (I Am Not A Troll)
> Didn't MS stop shipping system with CDs for the very same reason?
Did you make this up yourself or do you just believe everything some zealots tell you?
1) Microsoft doesn't ship PC's.
2) MS is very insistent that the CD ship with a machine as an anti-piracy measure.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
> I had no problems leaving the store without being searched :)
They tried that at CompUSA. I told 'em that I wouldn't be searched and they didn't have the legal authority to detain me. They called the cop standing outside the store (not a rent-a-cop, in uniform). I decided I didn't have time for it and let them open my bag anyway. After which I walked up to the service desk and asked for a refund, walked over to Best Buy across the street, and bought the same game. I still go to CompUSA to buy games if BestBuy doesn't have it. When you have no car or no plastic, you don't really get a lot of choices.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
Me: I want configuration Foo. No OS on it, plz.
-Elendale (next time...)Fry's Hardware Idiot: Erm... I can't do that- you need windows to use your computer.
Me: No i don't, i'm going to install my own OS on it.
FHI: Pirating your operating system is bad... blah blah blah...
Me: No you idiot, i'm going to use an OS i already own.
FHI: You can't use a current copy of windows with a new pc...
Me: I'm not going to use windows! I'm going to use a real OS made by people who don't treat me like shit!
FHI: We should install the OS for you, its easier and faster and safer, plus you'll get this shiny 'authentic' thingy.
Me: You'll install it for me? Great! I want QNX and Slackware installed, i'll draw up a partition table for you.
FHI: wha...???
IANAT (I Am Not A Troll)
If I have a valid license for a piece of software and the media is defective, is it piracy to remedy the defective media by using non-defective media? If that is so, I would suspect that the incidence of 'piracy' spirals out of control. If it is not piracy, what is illegal about providing proper media, i.e. not locked into a restore disk?
IANAL and all but it seems as if this is untenable on MS' part.
DB
Lovely... let's just accept and condone corporations lying to us because it could be to their benefit. This is the attitude that let's them get away with such things as UCITA and the DMCA.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Ah, yes, the Great Redmond Riots of 2010
But is anyone really stupid enough to believe advertising? Well, yeah they are aren't they. I still think its easier to train people to deal with lies than to train advertising people not to lie. I'm a believer in the school of hard knocks.
Besides, everyone seems happy to accept that corporations lie. Its a sucky system that sort of works. Unless someones got some idea of a way to enforce honesty with no exageration, and no biased opinions in marketing.
LOL!
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
I think it would even be more effective and less time consuming to install OpenDOS. It is an operating system, it would eliminate the NakedPC lawyer lala, and minimize the cost impact on the sellers at risk. Personally I question the implication that a licensed copy of software has to run on the 'original machine'. Heh, anyone who has ever tried to keep billysoft failware running knows that monthly (or more frequent for those who load applications) reloads are required to keep it running anyways. I think what we have here is a monopoly that is running scared, and it should be. I don't owe Microsoft jack except if I choose to run their lame OS, which I don't, Naked PC or not. I prefer Solaris, FreeBSD, and Linux on Intel platforms. Almondo
"Troll"??
.- -.. .. --- -....- .- -.- - .. ...- .. - .-.- - ...-.-
Would somebody please take the responsible moderator out behind the shed and shoot him?
Before he is shot I'll explain my post to him: The stuff I listed are things that aren't needed or desired to be included in the purchase of a house. The article was about the forced inclusion of Windows when buying hardware. Get it, mongoloid?
.-.
Help savingAmigaOS and a free PowerPC market
yeah... I don't wanna change it though. It would ruin my style...
mov ax, 13h
int 10h
mov ax, 13h
int 10h
If you read the agreement, you will see that if you dont agree to it you can actually send it back to M$ for a refund (i think)... i know that you are supposed to send the windows back if u dont agree with the license, and im pretty sure you get a refund as well... so long as it is still sealed on its shrink wrap
When I first made a partition for Windows 95 back in the day, I had an upgrade copy. I didn't have a, ahem, legal copy of Win 3.11, but I had a copy of OS/2 to "upgrade" from (yeah right)". It said it couldn't find any qualifying products on the disk, whereupon I inserted the OS/2 Installation Diskette and install proceeded. Maybe this was changed later for some reason.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
More like selling a house without furniture bolted to the floor.
(Original analogy stolen from RMS, I believe)
Remember, you're not allowed to resell the 'furniture' (or Windows CD) at a yard sale. You're not even allowed to stick it in the microwave without the consent of Microsoft.
Because it's an OEM install, you can't take the 'furniture' to your next home when you move or the house burns down.
While the Linux / BSD crowd will have plenty to say about this page, it's actually a well written bit of advise to the average PC sales shop. Let's face it most PC's bought today are bought with some flavor of windows, and this is REALLY what the customer wanted. If you want to install Linux on your new computer you will probably HAVE to do it yourself, or buy the computer from one of the few mail order firms that sell Linux configured machines (hey, the list is growing even IBM and Dell will do this for you now --- don't know about Gateway). And there ARE many 'Tiwan Row' computer shops selling Naked PC's or will install a Pirate copy of windows. That's who this piece is aimed at (not that they will see it though).
Seriously, this is the sort of stuff that the Justice Dept. needs to continue to look at. Is there a unwritten (and they usually are) understanding that if you don't sell the pc with the os installed, m$ will make it tough for you in the future? If so, then this is again a restraint of trade and illegal.
And what about a nice big fat rebate to those of us raped by microsoft when they where forcing most manufacturers to ship OEM OS with their pcs? I got the proof in my friggin desk, all these shrink wrapped copies of win95.
Everyone who *might* buy another copy of their product who ends up not doing so is stealing from them.
About 6 years ago I talked to this guy who used to run a small computer shop and he didn't sell naked machines. I think his motive was greed. I ended up not buying any machines from him because I had a perfectly good copy of DOS that I could use legally.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
on a machine with a "rebuilt" NT OS. Do they ever stop.
I don't think that you can use press articles as evidence that way. If you could, Hunter S. Thompson would've been jailed after his first article...
Besides, they don't actually say 'windows' they say 'an operating system'; we know what they're implying, but implying isn't stating.
--Parity
--Parity
'Card carrying' member of the EFF.
Since "naked" will get blocked by all of the U.S. Government-mandated filtering software
:-)
Just couldn't resist....
Don't pick up the pho*(@)$*@&@!@ NO CARRIER
Sounds an awful lot like what MS is requiring now, with their disk-less distrobution practices... So can Microsoft pirate their own software?
If I could only live my life with my threshold at 4...
I recently built a new computer (from scratch - motherboard/tower to sound card to video card to etc. and so on) and then I installed DOS 6.22 (MS) onto it. I upgraded to Win98 with the upgrade edition (had to put in the win95 cd, also ironically an upgrade) and then upgrade to Win98SE with a "bonus disc" ($20 from MS, though I think I stole my copy from a friend.) Also - what about the possibility of somebody buying a copy of Windows (or Mandrake, or Debian, or Slackware..) along /with/ the "naked PC"? (To the Linux fanboys - I installed Mandrake dual-booted with Win98 before I had to reformat said computer, Mandrake apparently got rid of my hda1 partition. Guess I'll get a new HD before I try that again.)
Oh well. We'll put an infinite amount of monkeys in front of an infinite amount of terminals and see if one of them can code up a half-decent operating system.
I'm on a road shaped like a figure eight; I'm going nowhere but I'm guaranteed to be late.
They imply that the PC buyer will both want a naked PC, and not know enough to realize that the PC has no OS. They say that you're protecting them from technical troubles by not ALLOWING them to buy a naked PC. Well, Mr. G, if I wanted a naked PC, and I told Dell not to put an OS on my PC, then wouldn't you expect me to know that I WANTED a naked pc, and that I would know full well what to do with a "naked PC"??? Why do you protect me from myself??? It's not like I can accidentally trip and buy a naked PC! If I was spending that much money on a computer, I would be sure it had the OS I wanted on it. If I didn't want an os, I would say that. If I said that, I'd know what I said, and what I meant. I would not expect OS support for an OS I didn't purchase from the PC vendor. You Microsofties must really think I'm dumb! Is that it? Are you insulting me? Wow, now I'm really not going to ever use windows!!!
-------
Oh shit! I forgot to click "Post Anonymously"...
I would pay good money to see the following:
"Hi there. I'd like to buy a PC."
"Very well sir, would you like Windows ME or Windows 2000 with that?"
"Actually, you can just leave off the operating system."
"Sir, I can assure you that we are best equipped to install your operating system."
"OK, in that case, do dual boot Debian/OpenBSD install with this hard drive partitioning that I'm going to write down..."
fearbush.com
Finding God in a Dog
"Nobody would buy a house without Windows, a PC without Windows is just as bad."
Who ever wrote this isn't really thinking very clearly and isn't acting for the benefit of the end user (surprise, it's microsoft). They're acting for the 'benifit' of the average computer user, but the average computer user doesn't order a naked pc.
:). I know I personally like troubleshooting computer problems. And the owner probably has a legal copy of the operating system they want to install (usually a free operating system). However, I'm sure there are a few cases of people wanted to use unlicensed copies of software.
:). I doubt the average Joe Normal User will order a naked pc, but if Joe Power User wants one, they they should be able to get one without a hassel.
1. Highlight the fact that the PC will not work without an operating system. Mention that preinstalling the operating system on the new PC saves considerable time, expense and trouble. After all, your expertise is valuable. You install system software day in, day out, so there is little question you're best equipped to do it well.
The person ordering this probably knows more than the average person about computers and will know what they are doing. And it doesn't really save that much time anyways, because the person ordering this will probably just blow it away and reinstall anyways. It has nothing to do with saying that the vendor has no expertise, but different users have different needs and abilities and some just like to install their own stuff.
2. Warn customers that acquiring the PC "naked" and subsequently pirating the software is never a good option. Explain the risks: technical troubles, upgrade problems, viruses and the law. Politely decline to expose your buyers or their businesses to such troubles.
As I said before, the person ordering a naked pc knows what they're doing and will most likely be able to work out any technical troubles on their own and will probably enjoy doing so
3. Point out the benefits of a legally licensed, preinstalled operating system. Customers have the original CD so they can reload the software. They also have a manual for everyday troubleshooting, and a Certificate of Authenticity that proves the software is legal. In short, protect your customer and your good name. Sell your PCs fully equipped with legally licensed operating systems preinstalled. Otherwise, who knows what you're leaving your customers-and yourself-open to?
If someone asked for a computer without an operating system they obviously know what they're doing and more than likely, they want to install a copy of a free operating system on it. And in some cases they will want to install a *CLEAN* version of windows and not the standard default install crap that I've seen most vendors ship with.
In short, selling naked pc's is aimed at a completely different market than the typical computer user and is geared more towards the power users who know what they're doing. Often this market is also of people who want to give a little money to microsoft as possible
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
What? No mention of the shops that routinely sell a Windows machine, fully installed, with the same pirated disc that they've used over and over and over again? Oh wait, that never happens.
Never argue with a man carrying a water buffalo
Are you trying to preposition me?
I just purchased a computer for my office, where I need to run NT. Again, I bought a naked PC. I'm not about to install an illegal copy of Windows. Why? Because my department has a site license (or similar such thing) for NT Client.
That seems to be an even more annoying aspect to this attitude of "you must buy Windows with a PC" idea. Those in institutions and large companies who's techs bought a site license to "save money", or even better (for MS, anyway), to "standardize" on an MS OS, will actually end up paying twice for every workstation.
Greg
Nah. it doesn't matter how nice of a desktop environment Gnome and Kde provide if Microsoft office forever stays Windows and Mac only...
Just TRY to buy a 'naked' apple PC. chances are it won't happen.
:)
Why? the OS is bundled with the hardware. Has been for years. but they'll gladly sell you an OS X upgrade for $29.99
They're not. That just happens to be the default.
Well, considering it is a microsoft.com page, I think that it is entirely correct to attribute the author's intentions as malice (or at least intentional misinformation). I do agree on your last point however.
I don't see how a pricing agreement between Microsoft and an OEM has any bearing on my rights to resell the software. Price is immaterial to the discussion at hand - it's not my job to make sure that Microsoft or an OEM don't lose money due to their under-the-counter deals.
Microsoft might have something if they had a click-wrap license on the PC and if you accepted it and if click-wrap licenses are legal, but assuming you never boot the computer into Windows, never agree to any of Microsoft's licensing agreements, and resell every single bit of windows that was sold to you, you should be free and clear.
Of course, if MS has "locked" your install of Windows to your particular hardware somehow, you might not find any buyers...
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
All Windows has proved is that it is unstable buggy and expensive while Linux has proved to be stable free and open source! Bill can suck this one down
The Beaver The Best Things In Life Are Free And So Is Linux!
I used to have a computer business on the side building machines (evolved out of everyone asking me to put together/fix machines for them). The presumption of guilt really sucks but I found it true.
People see the $100ish (my cost) price tag on purchasing an OS with the system and choke... suddenly they don't need one. I just tell them I won't setup the machine for them at all so just don't tell me what you are doing. These are people who don't know the difference between RAM and Hard Drive so there is *no* way they are loading Linux or BSD (and they asked for Windows in the first place). I warned them that if they don't buy a copy of the OS they are committing a crime and there can be stiff penalties if enforced/caught.
The *only* exception to the OS piracy that I know of is the handful of companies who paid me to setup Linux servers for them.
Brian Macy
I sometimes upgrade my system, without buying a new copy of windoze. That's legal, right? Since Linux runs better on less hardware, it goes on the older systems.
Let's say, for instance, that back in 1999 you bought that super cool, multimedia-ready "GeeWhiz 2000" PC with a Celeron 400 processor and it came with an OEM edition of Windows 98 on it. Lucky you, for that OEM install cdrom of Windows was not one of those deliberately crippled "system restore ONLY" types, but just happened to be a real install cdrom with a real setup.exe program that only wants you to type in that 8-mile long product ID key to run.
Now that the year 2000 has come and almost gone, that little old Celery 400 just doesn't jazz your 'nads any more, but will make a fine Linux box so you go to the local computer flea market and buy a whole shopping cart full of enough parts to build your own uber-fast hotrod AMD Gigahertz Thunderbird gaming rocketship dream machine. You get home and assemble all the stuff and justify your next couple of actions(since the "network is the computer", according to Scott McNealy... and all your collective hardware is your "system" (as in singular) because you network it all together with a cheezy little 5-port 10/100 hub). You install your favorite Linux distro onto the old machine (maybe all its innards in a new case) and are not surprised at all to find that it runs beautifully great at 400MHz, even with only a 66MHz FSB. You then pop that oem Windows 98 cdrom into your new assemblage of "upgrade parts" and proceed to commit software piracy.
That's right, that oem copy of Win98 is legally valid only for the original pile of parts that it was purchased with. Even if you kept the same old "GeeWhiz 2000" case, with its serial number, because you installed a new "system" into it, it is now in the eyes of MS, the SPA, and whatever other gestapo,... a different "computer", and hence illegal upon which to install that oem copy of Windows that came with the original PC.
In the past, they assumed that you were buying a copy of Windows. ISTR they had a per computer sold licence, which means that you were forced to buy it.
There is no way that the MS marketing department will admit to believing that you can have an OS written by people other than MS, and I'm not sure if we should expect them to.
It depends; If it is an OEM version of Win9X, then the license follows the machine. Even a large hardware upgrade, like new motherboard and harddisk, may be illigal to do with a OEM license.
However, _you_ can (still) buy a non-OEM version of Win9x. The licence costs twice as much, but you are entitled to move this license to any new machine.
I sometimes upgrade my system, without buying a new copy of windoze. That's legal, right? Since Linux runs better on less hardware, it goes on the older systems.
Of course, nowadays systems often ship with an OEM BIOS-locked Windows disc image on CD. This means that even if you just upgrade your computer, you can forget about using that OEM Windows copy to 'repair' your Windows installation at the 6-month instability fixing session. Nice one. Not that it causes me any lost sleep, since Loki started the Linux gaming scene rolling along I haven't had to worry about booting up Windows for anything other than printing (Canon BJC5100 - paperweight under Linux ...).
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
If ALL machines come pre-installed, you'll have to agree to that licence to buy the PC at all. there is NO WAY I'll agree to that.
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
<FONT COLOR='#FFFFFF'>microsoft.com Home/FONT>
Surely written on a system with fully licensed software.
I would browse the Myst cd and look for a directx directory. Then just run the directx setup again and one of the options should be "restore drivers" which should restore your old drivers. ALternately look for a directx folder under \Program Files. There should be a dxdiag program that will list the dlls and whether a driver is certified for dirextx. I hope this points you in the right direction.
Sig?
The EULA doesn't prohibit you from using the Windows disc as a coaster, does it? No. You can sneeze on it, for all that Microsoft cares. Consider it a bonus; you can always rip the media files from the disc (remember, unf**k.exe for WMA and ASFRecorder for ASF!)
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Hasn't anybody thought, that Microsoft might be trolling us?
Joutsa
- pre-install free Linux distro or any other free OS on every new computer.
- provide the option to install Windows with an extra cost of about $200.
- sell an optional a year or two of Linux or Windows service supports.
- advise customers not to install Windows, illegally or before calling Microsoft.
- lobby congress to eliminate "naked computers" and to make free OS the default OS on any new computer.
- politely decline to install free Microsoft Windows or free Microsoft Internet Explorer.
And remember, don't leave your customers in the cold!
Microsoft destroyed any and all competition, and now the only alternative to pre-installed windoze is pre-installed NOTHING, even if I want a PC with those other superior OS's.
Who said buying a how without furniture was a bad thing?
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
You have probly the best point here. Microsoft is very aware that a word processor can only do so many things, and are constantly changing little annoying things in new versions(like the whole .doc format) so that if their new products are bought by any large ammount of people the users of the older version create chaos. In fact i get nothing useful from Word that i get from WordPad which come with the OS.
Besides, we are all suckers to new and shiny things, thanks to wonderful marketing. No matter that something several years old can get a job done just as well as the new shiny one, we'll still buy the new shiny one.
The new software upgrade cycle is a necessity in many fields, as almost all technology worth developing can always get better, but what is wrong is minimal changes but being forced to pay a hefty fee for new versions. How many ways can you improve a word processor? I don't want to buy another one until i sit there and think and it writes what i think! (oh wait, i use GVIM, thats close enough and FREE)
mordain bravely lurking
Teamwork is a bunch of people doing what I tell them.
Every time you change the hardware. "Windows has detected hardware that was not bundled with this machine. Please upgrade your License to support the new hardware."
T. M. Pederson
"...and so the moral of the story is: Always Make Backups."
T. M. Pederson
"Lies, Damn Lies, and Documentation"
I rarely wipe the original Windows installation, even if I'm not going to use it. 1: the vendor may have been privy to hardware settings that are not documented, and I may need later 2: often, all of the software needed for a re-install is not included. One or more "special" drivers may be included, and a re-install may result in a flaky system.
I never trust a set of Windows install media (usually just verify that all of the extra drivers are on disk, in case I need them, and then throw out the CD).
Of course, I use Windows only to run those games and broken pieces of work software which cannot run elsewhere. Both reasons are rapidly declining to 0.
Naked PCs are not useless to me, but hardly 100% useful. I would want Linux or FreeBSD pre-installed instead.
This may be a stupid question, but when I bought my very first pc it came with windows 95. I guess I haven't read the entire EULA, but shouldn't I be able to put the same copy of windows 95 on multiple PCs that I own?
If so, then why should I be forced to buy another copy of windoze when I already have a perfectly legal copy I can use?(other than the fact that M$ will lose some money)
Sometimes I feel like a nut... Ok so it's most of the time
Naked PC's are totally indecent! They need to cover their shame with Microsoft Windows (TM). Society is simply not ready for these nudist machines.
This kills me. I just purchased a Compaq Presario Laptop for use at the office. I shelled out the extra $100 to upgrade from Windows ME to Win2000. My plan was to install Linux, then VMWare with Win2000 under VMWare for the MS-only stuff I might encounter in the office (like that damn MS Visual Source Safe, as if CVS doens't kick VSS's ass any day of the week, but I digress...). It turns out that the copy of Windows 2000 you get is only a Restore CD, not an installable copy. It does an fdisk and reformat before reimaging your system back to "a known good state". Since VMWare fakes out a BIOS, the restore CD won't install, since you are not installing "on the original machine". So I wasted $100 trying to be legal. I have turned to a semi-legal copy, and am soothing my morals by telling myself that I really do own a copy of Windows 2000 (I even have the much touted "Certificate of Authenticity"). I would have been better off buying the machine Naked and then buying a shrinkwrap copy of the MS software I needed.
In point #1 they point out that they are best equipped to install the OS, but then in point #3 they talk about how if they install it you would have the original CD so you can reinstall.
So, as a consumer, I'm qualified to reinstall but not to install?
--
Anyone notice the broken HTML on the page up in the top right corner? Nice work Microsoft! :) Keep up with the shitty HTML - it sure impresses people when the company that makes web authoring tools can't even properly design their own pages!
if I was forced to buy a PC with the OEM version of win98 installed and I immediately overwrite it with linux and never use the shrinkwrapped win98 cd or license aren't I within my 'first sale' rights to resell that unused/unregistered copy?
No. The reason that distributors' copies of windows cost 1/4 to 1/2 the price we'd pay in stores is because the copy of windows they supply is only licensed to run on the machine it originally came installed on. If you bought the full version, then you can resell that, but then you would have had to buy that voluntarily...
What about if you have a copy of Windows from your last machine and the motherboard fried (along with the video card and everything, so you get a whole new box).
What about me? I don't run Linux, but I work for an MCSP (M$ certified solution provider). We get license of client OS for development. I can use it (legitimately) at home. I don't NEED an OS license.
---
DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
blee, testing, ignore, troll it, whatever
assert(expired(knowledge));
So basically Microsoft is saying "The only OS worth installing, the only OS you are going to install, the only OS you can install, is our Windows OS, so why not just buy it with the computer already?"
Umm, should someone forward this article over to the DOJ? Microsoft claims it doesn't have a monoply of the market, but when you want to buy a PC without their OS, they are claim they are the ONLY OS worth wild, Hrmm. So which is it?
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
then you could make a big Beowulf Cluster with the machines!
puh-leez!!
I agree. Also, the FSF has no business telling me that I can't sell compiled GPL'd software without the source code. I am entitled to sell my forked binaries to anybody who wants them. Why the hell should I follow THEIR RULES?
I especially like the instructions on how to report competitors who you believe are selling PC's with illegal software!
--
Your Servant, B. Baggins
I dunno. To me a "naked PC" is one with the cover off, not one without an OS. Maybe I'm just wierd.
As far as I know, stores that ask to see your bags or hold them etc are attempting what amounts to illegal search and seizure. you are directly protected against this, and everytime I've been asked that (at best buy, compusa, other retail stores) I always tell them that I will not submit to illegal search and seizure. I haven't had a problem yet!
EOM
I recently bought a Compaq 5100 series machine that, of course, came with a legal copy of Microsoft Windows 98. I wiped the disk and installed Linux on it; it didn't work too well due to poor driver support, so I installed BeOS too. That was a little better, but not much.
Then I decided I'd really be better off selling the machine, since it performed poorly with both Linux and BeOS - I had an interested buyer, even - so I booted the recovery CD to reinstall Windows.
THE RECOVERY CD DID NOT CONTAIN A COPY OF WINDOWS. Instead, it contained references to a partition on my hard drive in which Windows was supposed to be hiding. Without this partition, no install.
Technical support had to send me a real Windows CD, which I haven't gotten around to installing yet (my sale fell through, since the buyer needed the machine right away). To be fair, the CD arrived promptly, even though they told me it would take two weeks. But that didn't erase the truly wretched experience.
Now, our friends at Microsoft might say that it serves me right for installing an alien operating system of evil on my system. At the same time, though, even if I was the world's biggest Windows fan, I would feel profoundly uneasy about this; what if the hard drive breaks down, for instance? What if I'd really like the gigabyte or so of space they're wasting on my hard drive back?
No, friends, this policy is profoundly consumer hostile. The "naked operating system page" is profoundly dishonest since it appears to be offering products that Microsoft is not actually selling.
Shameful.
D
----
Why should mom and pop shops have to spend the extra time doing that? I'm sure its a ploy to get mom and pop shops to buy Ghost (which used to be worth a damn back when it was just GhostSoft, but Norton, I don't trust that guy at all). I fully support the mom and pop shops. They typically give good trade ins (or else you dump it at the local goodwill computer shop) and they have great service if you get a mb or hdd that goes bad. As for the comments about the dell factory installs, yup, that's correct - might as well, format and reinstall the entire os to make it peachy clean.
www.buymeaferrari.com
This is a bad troll but I'll respond anyway. One sensationalist article about them (and scores of other companies) not paying corporate tax doesn't make "bad press". Maybe you should read the article and the comments from Slashdotters on the link you pointed to.
"the fact that both KDE2 and GNOME1.4 will be providing as good as, if not better, GUI environment for PCs and Macs"
I'll let this statement stand in solitary ridicule by itself. Hmm.. when was the last time I heard that this was happening? As far as I remember the Naked-PC page has been up there forever. What are you, a complete moron?
Mmmm.. Donuts
It's unconstitutional for our legal system to presume someone guilty of a crime until proven innocent, so why should it be legal for corporations to do so?
I've done some checking into this. If turns out that murder is also illegal, but if you have money and fame like, ooh, OJ Simpson for instance, you won't be punished for your actions anyway.
Call me cynical, but laws are just there to keep arrest figures high.
Michael
...another comment from Michael Tandy.
"Goodness me, how unlike the FBI to abuse the trust of the American public." -- The Onion
I love how so many of the sentances on that webpage weren't even complete sentances. Just the way to get down to the level of the common man, I guess....
~Chris
I used to work for a large OEM and almost every week at our technical meeting there would be questions about Microsoft licensing, often this issue in particular. I spoke to Microsoft about this on one occasion, and their line was basically
"You're on the Microsoft select program, we let you press your own Windows CDs and give you licenses for next to nothing, if you wish things to say this way then don't ship systems without an OS".
Unfortunately I didn't have the authority and the MD didn't have the courage to do anything about the situation.
-- Piracy is a vicitmless crime, like punching someone in the dark.
Blaming GW Bush for the Iraq war is like blaming Ronald McDonald for the poor quality of food.
I disagree. It's more like selling a house without the termites.
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
Today, medical researchers demonstrated that there is a strong causational link between users of the free "Linux" operating system and the use of other software not approved by Microsoft. According to the report, these Operating System-Transmitted Diseases (OSTDs) were found at a much higher rate in the high-risk group of Linux users than in the Microsoft crony group.
"We here at Microsoft," said the chief researcher, "don't blame the Linux users. The social stigma associated with Linux use is unfair -- but the evidence that these people are at higher risk of acquiring pirated software and using non-Windows software is staggering."
--
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
"They also have a manual for everyday troubleshooting"
All God does is watch us and kill us when we get boring. We must never, ever be boring.
ummm, no... i don't think so.
the burden of proof is clearly on the prosecution. the prosecution has to show *beyond a reasonable doubt* that the accused is guilty.
what you are saying is that someone is guilty until proven innocent, which ain't the case.
you also couldn't have picked a worse case to demonstrate your view, because OJ was clearly guilty, however the defense raised enough doubt (for those jurors, anyway) to acquit(sp?) him...
They are plainly and openly committing extorsion and continuing their monopoly practises? Just read the link. They actually threaten PC vendors by vague legal piracy implications if they try to ship a PC without Windows installed on it. Why oh why and how oh how does it take so long for the legal department to do something? Based solely on this one URL alone there is enough of a case to be open and shut. What exactly could Microsoft possibly say? Well, I suppose they could say they are 'protecting the consumer' from straying from the 'one true OS'. But then they are openly a monopoly. Open-shut. I just don't understand how this case is not open-shut. It is just another example of how frustrating the United States is. Forget marijuana laws which make no sense, lax penalties on convicted violent offenders, the tax bracket system, and the electoral college, wtf is up with this? This should have taken ONE AFTERNOON of a court's time. Instead millions of taxpayer dollars go toward fighting this case. Wtf, I ask you America, wtf? In summation, I think Microsoft has the right to innovate and do all kinds of things, but not extort PC vendors. It is all too obvious, and has been for so many years, that they are are not only a monopoly, they are a predatorial, vindictive monopoly, with absolutely no regard whatsoever for their customers. We argue that the RIAA should change, that the MPAA should change. Microsoft had better change its tune, the time for 'One world, one reich, one fuhrer' is over. If I were a stockholder in Microsoft I would wonder wtf they are doing, also. Why aren't they moving into the obviously growing markets, why aren't they reducing their risks of even harsher antitrust penalties? Are they out to screw Joe Stockholder, too? Anyway, I've ranted for too long for no good reason... -my opinions do not reflect my employer's, yada yada yada
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
MS can't put you in jail etc
...yet
-matt
Er.. what is this guy saying that the front page doesn't already say? So why is this a 5?
>It's unconstitutional for our legal system to presume someone guilty of a crime until proven innocent, so why should it be legal for corporations to do so?
Because corporations are individual entities and they only have so much power. They can't impose fines nor imprison people.
Get a grip. Its a SALES piece. Apple/Oracle/Sun/Proctor&Gamble do the same thing.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
A European with a pretty bad grasp of English grammar, too.
Really? You represent more than three corporations as their tech support liaison from your desk in the GNUCave? Pretty amazing for a mere human.
So what about the Dell Optiplex and PowerEdge? The Micron ClientPro and NetFRAME? Do you still say that they are inferior as well, despite their acceptance by Linux distros and large corporations worldwide? One product line does not a corporation make, young Obi-Wan.
Perhaps you should try bludgeoning your head, then. It certainly would make this world a more peaceful place. Mentalities like yours are responsible for starting wars all over the world. Do the world a favor, and have a heart.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
This is a troll, and a bad one at that, but I'll respond to it.
OJ was presumed innocent until prosecutors provided a mountain of evidence. OJ didn't have to provide a mountain of evidence that he was innocent. He just had to introduce reasonable doubt. He did. The jury bought it. He's free.
Where's the problem?
that a few years ago MICROS~1 persuaded the Customs Service to block the import of Taiwanese PCs which didn't have Windows installed. The grounds cited were that the only possible use of these machines was installation of pirated copies of MS software, and thus their importation was contributory to copyright infringment.
Anyone have a cite on that?
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Correct. Buying a computer with a preinstalled, OEM MS operating system means you will not get an original CD. This hold true for any mfg out there. More MS double speak, blech...
--------
-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
[OEMs] install system software day in, day out, so there is little question [they are] best equipped to do it well.
.), while the second part is clearly (to me) an attempt to avoid leaving the thought "but if we OEM windows, we own the suport FOREVER."
Customers have the original CD so they can reload the software.
I used to work for an OEM, and there is a subtle implication in the second part. The reason that "OEM" versions of MS software are so cheap is that the OEM takes on the support costs.
The subtlty is this, the first part implies that customers are not qualified to install Windows (which, in itself, is interesting, since one of MS arguments against non-MS OSes is that they are too hard for users to install . .
Piracy aside, it strikes me that small shops could sell retail Windows at cost (installed) and save money in the end. In fact they could use it as a selling point, "We give you the 'shiny box' version of Windows, which comes with support DIRECTLY FROM MICROSOFT."
That is a bigger nightmare for MS than wide-spread piracy. Pirated copies of Windows don't cost MS anything, on the other hand, retail copies can end up costing them quite a bit in support costs.
Except, of course for the fact that Windows has no bugs
-Peter
1. If one company doesn't sell you they way you want it, another will. Move on.
2. Isn't it clear that the its the RETAILERS fault and not Microsofts?
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
There is NO SUCH THING as UNJUSTIFIED Micro$oft bashing. They deserve every last little bit of it!!!
Teen Angel - a Ghost Story
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I AM, therefore I THINK!
Which is running QNX and Linux, nothing else...
I thought about returning the Windows part, until I opened the box on my laptop (a Toshiba) to read the sticker that says that by having purchased the computer, I've implicitly bought the Windows operating system too and that I have no rights to a refund on said product. You got $90 of my money for something I don't use. I hope you choke on it.
I was going to return the computer, but the 10% restocking fee on the PC would have cost even more.
You don't want naked PCs, Microsoft, then start a refunds division, cause I'm making sure Janet Reno gets a photocopy of that notice that came in the box, covering the computer. With any luck that tactic'll cost you a few billion at the hands of the DOJ, and you'll be forced to sell ONE and ONLY ONE copy of your software to people. Ramp it up. It'll be busy.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
Every time I hear some new stupid licensing restriction or some new way that Micros~1 is fucking over the consumers, it makes me feel less bad about pirating every one of their OS's since dos 2.11
They *really* care about *me*. I mean, these days it is *so* hard to distinguish legal copies of windows from illegal copies.... I mean, my neighbor giving me a burned copy of windows ? is that legal ? all these so-called 'warez' sites ? are they legal ? copies you buy in pc stores ? legal or not ? Man this world is just *so* confusing. Thanks to MS, now it's all a lot easier. No more dodgy pc vendors refusing to install a legal copy of an os.
it is my guess that if you buy a pc in say thailand or russia with a preinstalled copy of windows, that it will be an illegal copy... This saves the customer the trouble of finding a copy. Now how's that for customer relations ?
I think ms should just make windows embedded software and make windows a cartridge, solves all their problems....
-whatever you do will be more fun - (ring a bell ?)
Now, you may rave around in madness of Microsofts business practices (I generally do), but I don't believe anyone would say the same thing if this article was found on e.g. Apple's or Sun's website (both companies' have competing operating systems running on their hardware).
So, in summary, Microsoft is bad, this article isn't necesseary that bad. If you want something to rave about, do it about something that matters.
KDE2 and GNOME 1.4 will be providing as good as, if not better, GUI environment for PCs and Macs
I'll believe that when I see it.
Not bloody likely it'll matter anyway, because app support will still be bad enough to give people a reason to use Windows or Mac...
--K
---
the fact is, in the 'olden days' where the oem cd was NOT node-locked (to a particular bios checksum, etc), that cd distro was for 'the original pc' that came shipped with that o/s. defining a pc is legally problematic (any lawyers out there care to define what IS a 'pc' in legal terms?). if I change a video card, is it the same pc? if I upgrade a motherboard, is it the same pc? if I move to a new hard drive (using a hard drive clone util, like what maxtor ships with their retail drives, sort of a cheap Ghost util) is THAT the same pc?
its all nonsense. the intent (which does make sense) is that one machine runs one licensed/keyed copy of windows. if I run 2 machines on that same key I'm in violation. but I should be able to run exactly one license on the machine of my choice.
no where in that EULA (afaik) does it prohibit -giving- the oem copy away. so if I sell a hard drive to you and give you the only copy of win98 I have (and I'm not using it and its not installed at my site) I cannot see what's wrong with this.
and to my point, M$ flexing their muscles and forcing ebay to cancel ads is way beyond tolerable! if M$ wants to sue individuals, let them. but strongarming ebay is in very poor taste. at least there is a funny loophole that ebay users can use to get around this strongarming.
--
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
What's with the slashdot editors? The Naked-PC page has been up for as long as I remember. Does Slashdot have a quota of Microsoft-related posts they have to make in order to get advertising revenue?
Mmmm.. Donuts
Still, it's a weak point, since even with a pirated copy, the user ends up with a "copy" of the OS on CD...
(Duhhh...)
--
Your Servant, B. Baggins
Then stop buying from Dell! There are plenty of small local shops that will be more than happy to custom build a PC for you with whatever the heck you want in them.
Heck, at the place I used to work at we even installed a few digi-boards and industrial controller cards for customers that needed it.
I'm sure the local place would be happy to make similar accomodations for you.
In the case of most of the people here, its like selling a house without the tacky plastic/ simulated elephant hide/chintz furniture. Not to stretch the analogy of course.
Thanks for the idea, though.
"I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."
This kind of thing really pisses me off. The last several computers I've bought have been without an OS. They are running just fine with a Microsoft-free operating system. For them to threaten vendors who cater to the free software community is reprehensible. Why should we have to pay a Microsoft tax if we don't intend to use their silly bloatware?
"All right, then." - Karl
Better yet, not just any DOS, but FreeDOS.
I don't subscribe to RMS's GNUtopian vision.
Gorkman
For "Most Completely Asinine Attempt at Assaulting the Intelligence of Consumers" by a mega corporation. Marketing through FEAR. Your customers will NOT LIKE YOU if you sell them HARDWARE without a Microsoft OS on it. This is freaking hilarious. Bill Gates, are you aware of the high degree of idiocy your marketing people are exhibiting? Or was this your bright idea? Linux is clearly posing more of a threat than ever to the megacorp. Go kick their asses, Tux.
-= jester =-
Gateway isn't more receptive now. While they sell a 'network appliance' that runs on Linux, they are still very, very, EXTREMELY unfreindly towards any mention of running Linux on a PC or server.
While I was still working there they had been talking about allowing servers to be sold with Linux, but any time I talk to a salesperson I am told that servers are only sold with Win2K or NT 4. When I ask if it is possible to purchase without an OS (so I can install Linux myself) I am flat out told that they will not support pirating of Windows products. They will not even admit that it is possible to install anything other than Windows on a server. And don't even get me started on what their phone techs said when I told them I was running Linux on a gateway laptop. You would have thought I just told them I was fscking their mothers!
"Until you install Windows on your computer, we cannot help you with your problem."
Well, it's a little hard to do that when you can't get any video display (turned out to be a loose connection to the LCD).
Bite my yammer.
I find it difficult to believe that vendors could
be liable for what their customers do. Even with
preinstalled software - what if a customer later
illegaly installs another OS - eg, Solaris, SCO, etc. Is the vendor still liable then?
worldmobilenet.com -- World Prepaid Wireless Internet plans
I did a quick browse at level 1 and didn't see this already pointed out. Not only were free operating systems left out (Linux, *BSD, FreeDOS, etc), but so were less free (BeOS, not considered "Free" to purists) and not at all free, like OS/2 or SCO. Perhaps it would be useful to remember those that Microsoft have already mostly eliminated through tactics similar to this one.
It's much more like buying a new house without furniture, which is a given.
Thus you're allowed a few moments to scream in the empty rooms and hear the echo coming back at you :
"Fuck off, Gates." (bis)
The way it works is, if they force you to leave something behind before entering, they are responsible for it.
Sign up for @watch service and we'll let you know when your website is down!
To offer more to the customer, shops should pre-install an operating system - and Linux should be a choice. That way the customer would know that their hardware works when they buy it. The thing is, some companies charge the same amount as windows to install linux - probably because if you install it, you're the one they come to for questions.
Heck, if I were to get a system with Linux pre-installed, I would probably re-install it to make sure I knew what the configuration options were.
I wonder how many people purchase a computer with the intent of installing linux on it? I tend to build my own desktop machines, but I bought my Sony VAIO laptop expressly to install linux.
Microsoft states "Naked PCs are those sold without operating systems preinstalled. Machines are useless until customers install system software themselves. It's like selling a house without a roof. And, in the end, it leaves your customer just as exposed." I dont know who they have writing this stuff but he should look into another department. This analogy is totally bunk. Selling a computer without os is NOT like a house without a roof. Its more like: An Apartment unfurnished vs. a furnished apartment. Because some people already have furnishings. Why pay extra for a furnished apartment when you already have furnishings. Your just going to throw away or store the furnishings provided, in replacement with your own. Likewise. Why buy a computer with an OS when Your just going to wipe it out and put your own on.
Use Source Offsite. They have a linux client, which I haven't used, but their Windows client kicks ass. Even on a local network it is faster than VSS. They have command line clients too, which are great for scripting.
Still though, it ain't cheap, and is no substitute for CVS.
--
At the same time, however, they get more from flooding the world with stock options and MS stock than they do from their actual products (not an exxageration!). In this sense, protecting mindshare is substantially more important than protecting retail sales of the products. They cannot be simply a product sold at the store- they must be 'what you use when you have a computer' or the stock pyramid will collapse sooner. (It's going to collapse sooner or later, but MSFT wishes it to be later.)
Conclusion: Microsoft are fully and consciously aware of their situation balancing product sales against stock market valuation, and are choosing in full awareness to abandon their own products wherever necessary to prop up the pyramid of their stock valuation, which is essentially valuable solely because it is valuable (price/earnings ratio is flatly delusional, even if you don't count the fact that MSFT increasingly operates at a loss and papers this over with issuing of options- 'printing money' to hide the problem). A page like this one _cannot_ come from an organisation that considers its OSes to be a product sold in stores alongside other ones.
I think this has disturbing implications. It suggests that they understand their true situation all too well and embrace it- that they would literally cut the budget for things like bug-fixing and developing stable technology, in order to pay for attempts to persuade the world that there is literally no choice but to use Microsoft for everything. This is not to sell more products- the product is no longer important to them at all, they make more money on stock valuation than they do on products and are apparently sharp enough to have figured this out.
Things could get interesting- especially with the Presidential election. I'm personally voting for Nader, unhesitatingly- and I almost hope Dubya wins as a result of this, because then the situation could get so appalling as to _force_ public reaction. I'm picturing Dubya passing legislation making Doze the Official State Operating System and issuing every citizen a yearly license to use it, paid for out of taxes. Meanwhile MS quietly scraps all technical development and puts the budgets towards lobbying... this would be a very interesting situation because, when you do crazy things like that, who will enforce it? Taxation going directly to Microsoft is the best bet. Doing things like criminalising Linux or whatever (surely tempting- call it a hacker OS) is much less reliable, because who's going to enforce it? There's the prospect of 'blue laws' around computer issues if companies like MS get to put through whatever legislation they like.
What interesting times we live in...
How a pirated copy of Windows is any more or less succeptable to viruses. They should explain that on the page.
2. Warn customers that acquiring the PC "naked" and
:P) with a licenced copy. Politely decline to expose your buyers or their businesses to such troubles? "Sir, may I recommend an alternative OS with your PC?"
subsequently pirating the software is never a good option.
Explain the risks: technical troubles, upgrade problems,
viruses and the law. Politely decline to expose your buyers or
their businesses to such troubles.
As if you WON'T have techinical troubles, upgrade problems and viruses (and maybe even legal trouble too
From the article "...subsequently pirating the software is never a good option. Explain the risks: technical troubles, upgrade problems, viruses and the law."
Technical troubles, upgrade problems, viruses... I would say that eliminates all vendors to pirate from BUT Microsoft.
i've been looking to buy a laptop for a while and, being a poor student and all, trying to get the lowest price possible. I called up IBM the other day and talked to one of their managers who very much informed me that they will NOT sell a thinkpad without an operating system, or with Linux. Now, maybe it's just me but you'd think it would be easier for them to sell an affordable laptop and put up a pricing for it without an OS so John Q Student, like me, can buy it without the $200 Windoze license, since I was just going to reformat and install Linux ANYWAYS. I am also curious if Microsoft simply "neglects" those that buy their Windows system separately... if I bought the Windows 95 OS at my favorite store and didn't install it on anything, saving it for when I buy a new machine and install it then. The savings are nearly indisputable, but M$ seems more interested in the licensing $$$ they get, rather than giving the consumer the best deal for their money.
http://www.nakedandfree.com
Your customers are idiots. You know it, we know it, hell everyone knows it with the possible exception of your customer, and that's only because, well, they're idiots.
Because they're idiots, they depend on YOU to tell them to use Windows. Otherwise, they might make the mistake of not using Windows, and so be liable to legal action by Microsoft's huge cadre of well paid, extremely rabid lawyers. Grrrrr...
So do yourself a big favor, pal. Force the schmucks to buy a new copy of Windows today, even if they already own one. After all, that copy is only good on the PC it was originally sold with.
Wise up. The profit you save may be ours.
Thanks - The MS Marketroid Team
"...they may harpoon us, but they ain't gonna pick us up on no radar screen!"
I hope the voices of reason and/or MS apologists here will at least allow me to mock them for the bad HTML. Mock, mock, mock ...
--
Microsoft is actually the most common consumer operating system out there. So you should know that even though you want to buy a "naked" PC doesn't mean that it's good for most people. I could never see any thing in the article saying you should never sell a "naked" PC, and I for one would probably be happy to buy a PC with Linux or FreeBSD preinstalled.
The article simply states that you as a dealer should be aware of piracy, and you should advice your customers of this fact. I cannot see that a dealer selling "naked" PCs to customers aware of these issues (as almost anyone wanting to buy a "naked" PC is anyway) would be going against the tone of this article...
Why you ask:
I've helped friends and relatives to this, and saved them a lot of money.
Dom
Say you go to contest a speeding ticket in traffic court. Right then and there, every clerk, bailiff, and judge looks at you with disdain. You are a drag on their daily lives, as well as the enemy of the state of the minute, despite your petty violation of the law. That is what I mean when I use the terms "judicial quota system" and "presumed guilty until proven innocent."
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Why not ship good old DOS with the box? It's gotta be cheap -- it's moderately usefull (you can at least use it to rawrite boot floppies), and would not subject the manufactures/vendor to any undue support issue like shipping a linux distro would.
To tout Windows on the company's web site is not a sin. Windows is perhaps the most copyright-infringed software series in the world. I've had close to a hundred different burned copies slip through my hands over the course of the years, and for a company whose employees profit off of software sales, this is not a good thing.
On a side rant, this notion that "all software should be free" really bothers me. Ever since the earliest days of bartering, people have imbued prices on goods they deemed as having value. Should I work for years on a OS and then release it for free like Linus did? Isn't that a waste of time and resources?
Granted, I'm not riding along the idealistic viewpoint here. But enough is enough. If Microsoft wants to charge for their operating systems, let them. If I don't want to buy it, I won't. If I do want to buy it for a myriad group of reasons, like having a standardized system that game developers work on and support for a majority of the hardware out there, I will.
Personally, I think Windows 2000 closes the gap to Linux/FreeBSD farther than any MS operating system before it. It really is quite good, and I haven't managed to crash my Windows 2000 box in the months I have used it.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Then I decided I'd really be better off selling the machine, since it performed poorly with both Linux and BeOS - I had an interested buyer, even - so I booted the recovery CD to reinstall Windows.
THE RECOVERY CD DID NOT CONTAIN A COPY OF WINDOWS. Instead, it contained references to a partition on my hard drive in which Windows was supposed to be hiding. Without this partition, no install.
Technical support had to send me a real Windows CD!
This I believe is the KEY! Order a system, wipe it and then call tech support DEMANDING you get your Win98 disk!
I like this.
>MS has a monopole
I don't think so. I know there are some pretty bright people working for M$, and monopoles are possible according to some theories of magnetic forces. Still, if M$ actually had a monopole then they wouldn't need to mess with software to make megabucks. I'm sure they could sell that significant bit of technology all over the world.
You never really know how close to the edge you can go until you fall off.
Forget the discussion. I want to know what you were searching for that turned up a page entitled "Naked PC".
I mean, I'm broad minded, but some people...
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
I've seen a store in Montréal where computers
come bundled with Linux and you add $120 to
get winblows 98 instead.
A naked PC saves us the expense of useless
CDs when we allready have our OS. I prefer
to buy my OS from CompUSA or www.chumbo.com.
I can understand that dogs may like the
frisbees but think about those of us who
don't have a dog.
What the hell do you think we can do with the
frisbees that we have to buy with the PC?
My cats like balls, not frisbees.
thx :)
mov ax, 13h
int 10h
mov ax, 13h
int 10h
Of course they probably aren't going to mention other specific operating systems. Especially since the retailer or OEM whom the web page is intended for is probably already selling systems with Windows pre-installed on them. This web page is directed at retailers selling PCs with windows on them, and why they should not sell them without Windows (or any operating system) on them. Oddly enough, as already mentioned, the fact that a lot of people buy systems and use RETAIL versions of software they already own and install that is ignored.
On another interesting point.. wouldn't this make the sale of retail versions of windows pointless? Unless they are hoping that the people who do buy their systems without an operating system installed will decide to buy windows, rather than using a version they already have, a different operating system (whether or not it is free), or a pirated version.
On the note of pirated software in use, piracy of all sorts has always existed. I can't think of a single consumer being charged with pirating software or something similar. A few retailers have been, but not really consumers. Sort of like all my old Vanilla Ice cassette bootlegs and what not. It's going to happen, but it doesn't really matter.
What?
Now all we need is to wait for MS to publish this on their French site and sue them :)
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
It's three years since I started doing this. Every time I come to a shop to buy a new computer or HDD I precisely state the following:
... and the HDD WITHOUT any OS. I want WANT an HDD clean, virgin and NAKED. Using the same clothes we wear when we get born. DO YOU GET IT? No Windows, no DOS no other OS crap. DID YOU REALLY GET IT?..."
Because I use the OS that I don't need to pay taxes for: Linux.
On what concerns Microsoft's well hearted intentions... Hey Redmonders you owe us US $3000-7000. We asked several machines with Windows NT installed not 95/98. Why the Hell we should pay for ANOTHER copy of your crap? Why I should return the machines to the supplier if I don't want your Win95/98 copies? (that's what IBM people told me...) Why I should pay for a copy of NT for each machine? Why I should pay for that Win95/98 if I even have Linux installed on them? Why do you direct me to IBM when your licensing terms indicate that I can refuse to install and get a refund for it. And why you make agreements with IBM that force this corporation to ask for the return of these machines if I refuse your damn EULA???? Even if an IBM representative well sees that these machines work with LINUX ONLY?
NakedPCs? My consumer right. And it is not your damn business what runs on them if it not Microsoft.
even when it does come pre installed, the install ususally blows because it includes crap I don't want on it like INTERNET SERVICES and all the other addware/USE MICROSOFT INTERNET SERVICES crap that I don't care about. Granted the delete key gets rid of most of this, but i am happier when its not installed in the first place, so I don't have to keep deleting stuff. E-machines are horrible for this because they come with so much pre-installed stuff its not even funny. And the CD they give you dumps all this back on the HD if you re-install.
mov ax, 13h
int 10h
mov ax, 13h
int 10h
Oh agreed -- I wouldn't recommend to Dell or Gateway or Compaq to start shipping Naked PCs as an option: they'd only increase their tech support costs from clueless morons.
But what about smaller outfits like Alienware? People who buy from them are all experienced hardware hackers of some sort or other, and usually run some type of *NIX anyhow.
Microsoft has no business hinting that people buying naked PCs are pirating systems. Nor should they be telling PC vendors to hint to their customers that they are buying Naked PCs only to do something illegal.
This only goes further to show just how full of shit Microsoft is, and only seems to reassert the need for punishment.
Is this referring to PCs without a case?
Good, because I hate that.
So now Microsoft has finally gotten in on the presumption-of-guilt game? Notice in the article that they claim everyone buying a "naked PC" will just install a pirated copy of one operating system or another (with strong implications that it'll be Windows, of course).
You know, someone really needs to find a way to put a stop to that kind of crap. It's unconstitutional for our legal system to presume someone guilty of a crime until proven innocent, so why should it be legal for corporations to do so?
----------
Will get you a web response page.... Try to be as nice as I was.
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
I am always amazed at how many on slashdot read the Microsoft web pages! I am under the impresion that most here don't use their products (like myself) and so why are so many reading MS's web pages. I am Curious... is it to keep an eye on the enemy?
I miss the Karma Whores.
Customers have the original CD so they can reload the software.
Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't Microsoft stopped OEMs from giving the buyer the OS CD. Instead they just give them that "recovery" CD.
On top of everything else, they're liars? Oh, heavens.
Seems more like selling a house without the furniture to me.
Ok, the picture on that page looks like some woman who's just had her head bashed into the shower tiles. She's obviously dead, given that blissful-but-unmoving gaze. Microsoft supports domestic violence against women and murder? Er...
I always build my own computer systems these days. That way, I get just the hardware I need, with just the OS I want, and I don't pay no Windoze tax.
I only pay for Windoze when it's actually going to be used on a machine.
Just be sure to wear the gold uniform when you beam down -- you know what happens when you wear the red one.
If they did not get a lesson from their EULA stupidity and the Windows Refund Day, just too bad for them.
:)
MS will see another horde of users showing up in Redmond to get their refund
Ok, here's my edit:
Point out the benefits of a legally licensed, preinstalled operating system. Customers have the original CD so they can reload the software. They also have a manual for everyday troubleshooting, and a GPL/BSD style license proves the software is legal. In short, protect your customer and your good name. Sell your PCs fully equipped with legally licensed operating systems preinstalled. Otherwise, who knows what you're leaving your customers-and yourself-open to?
Ah, much better...
Sig? What sig? Do I have to have a sig!?!?
Antitrust person: Then why do you presume that if someone buys a PC without an OS, they will just pirate Windows?
Microsoft: That's just it, we compete against piracy!
Antitrust person: So people have a choice between buying your OS with a machine and pirating it and that is completition?
Microsoft: Yes, and we compete against other network appliances and handhelds.
Antitrust person: You mean like WebTV and PocketPC's?
Microsoft: Don't forget the Palm Pilot!
Antitrust person: Doesn't that require a PC to have functionality?
Microsoft: Yes, but if it has a pirated version of Windows....
Good Grief.
Burn Hollywood Burn
Truthfully, I feel that Microsoft is finally on a downward slide. The recent press about their Tax Situation and the fact the both KDE2 and GNOME 1.4 will be providing as good as, if not better, GUI environment for PCs and Macs may well be good reason for Microsoft to be bullying their way. They are probably running scared, just trying to figure out a way to compete against something that is free, stable, easy, and more efficient. I wouldn't be surprised at anything they try to do over the next year or two.
These opinions are my own, and not those of my alternate personalities...
Deven Phillips, CISSP
Network Architect
Viata Online, Inc.
Wherever you go, there I am...
So people who decide to buy an unclothed PC are "at risk of acquiring" pirated OSes? i.e. they're "at risk of acquiring Windows"?
Here I am thinking that people are "at risk" to acquire things like Herpes, the Flu, pneumonia, etc...
I guess Windows is a disease... Maybe we should tell people not to catch it!
***Are you at risk? Get tested at
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
...but what the hey, I'm bored.
No matter how you look at them, Naked PCs are bad for your customers.
And bad for our bottom line and ability to inflate user numbers.
Which means they are also bad for you.
Man, tell me if that doesn't read like a not-so-thinly-veiled threat. When can I expect "the boys" to hit the computer shops about ten blocks away from me?
Politely decline to expose your buyers or their businesses to such troubles.
So M$ is encouraging OEMs and indie shops to refuse to sell bare computers to anyone who doesn't want to pay the M$ tax. This is probably the most laughable statement in the whole thing; M$ blatantly telling computer-retailer business owners how to run their business.
Sell your PCs fully equipped with legally licensed operating systems preinstalled.
You mean like this one?
I don't suppose the DoJ can bring up new evidence in the appeal case, because this looks like a rather pointed warning to OEMs and other computer sellers to install Windows and pay the tax or else. How else do you say 'smoking gun"?
And the part I don't get...or else what? Since when did it become illegal to sell a computer without an OS? Will MS start going after those who sell "naked PCs" as "accessories to piracy" now? I hope they do and prove once and for all how much they really care for competition.
-------------
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Ensign Kim I'm picking up something on sensors.
Tuvok On Screen
Janeway Oh no! It's the Kayzon! They've come to take our ad revenue.
Tuvok It's only one ship. We may be able fight them off.
Janeway What do you have in mind?
Tuvok Ensign Kim, arm the quickies. Include that pornographic link that Belona installed yesterday.
Janeway You may fire when ready.
Tuvok Fire... Direct hit. No damage, but their shields are down to 50%.
Janeway Evasive maneuver Intel-4!!!
Tuvok It's no use. Captain, might I suggest...
Janeway I know what your thinking, but I hate to do it.
Tuvok Hate is illogical. It is our only course of action.
Janeway Very well then. Arm the Microsoft article...
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
How is anyone here surprised at this? This is a page on "microsoft.com". Are they really going to say- make sure they don't pirate our OS but let them do what they want? Why would they promote Linux or BSD? Would redhat.com promote Windows 2000? I would think not.
They should take the extra 1/2 hour to dump linux onto the machines. Its free and will only take up a 1/2 hour of time to do it per machine (faster if they make all the machines the same). And it'll keep microsoft off their asses...
.sigs??
-- Don't you hate it when people comment on other people's
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
The scheme now is called "cliff pricing", which ultimately has the same effect.
I'd really like to see some of the MS apologists on slashdot defend this practice, besides parroting that OEMs don't have to sign the agreement (because it's quite obvious they do in order to stay competitive).
----------
Stupid sexy Flanders.
it appears that the oem copy of win98 is 'only for distribution with a pc'. what is a pc, then? apparently its either a drive or a motherboard. so folks are selling broken/old motherboards and/or drives just to meet the 'license' requirement and to keep M$ from requesting (yeah, right) that ebay cancel their ad.
anyone else feel that M$ has NO BUSINESS telling ebay what to cancel and what not to? if I was forced to buy a PC with the OEM version of win98 installed and I immediately overwrite it with linux and never use the shrinkwrapped win98 cd or license key, aren't I within my 'first sale' rights to resell that unused/unregistered copy?
--
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I imagine that just like in the my.mp3.com case, the fact that you can copy your own CD doesn't mean you can copy somebody else's CD, even if that CD is for all rational intents and purposes identical to yours (copies of it are totally indistinguishable from copies of your own).
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
I recently had a customer talk to me as I fixed her database application on her Windows pc, and she asked me if I used Windows 98, ME, or 2000. I said I didn't use Windows at all. She asked if I had an Apple. I told her I had a normal pc that didn't run Windows. (I run Slackware Linux)
She was _flabbergasted_ ! What did I mean I didn't run Windows, everyone runs Windows! Computers ARE Windows !
This is what Microsoft has done, pull the blinds over the eyes of the consumers.
Lars -
Hey, the French sued Yahoo because its yahoo.com site allowed french people to access Nazi auctions. So, hey, they should be able to sue MS, too.
Last year, I bought 3 PC's from a company...and I asked that there would not be any OS on 2 of them....I was planning on loading the same Windows 95 or whatever that I had previously installed on my older computer. I won't mention the name of the company...*coughCheapPC.com*cough* but, the computers came with Windows 98, already preloaded...so..I saved 75 bucks, and I also got and upgrade from windows 95....interesting way to do things...but..I wasn't too upset. =)
The anti-salmon
Point out the benefits of a legally licensed, preinstalled operating system. Customers have the original CD so they can reload the software. They also have a manual for everyday troubleshooting, ...
This are particularly important considerations with M$ OSes..
-- The Funk, The Whole Funk, And Nothing But The Funk
It almost sounds like if the OEM doesn't install an OS, MS thinks thats encouraging pirating an OS. I wonder if they will try and sue based on that. It would be interesting. Its almost like car makers sueing hardware stores for selling crowbars. As someone else pointed out, its more likly the customer already has a copy of windows, and will not be using the old PC anymore, or simply wants to install an OS not offered by the OEM. I wonder how many companies will actually believe this.
A European with a pretty bad grasp of English grammar, too.
That's correct, I do tech-support on the phone and e-mail in German, Dutch, French and what do you know? English.
Really? You represent more than three corporations as their tech support liaison from your desk in the GNUCave? Pretty amazing for a mere human.
GNUCave? I've never touched a GNU box in my life. Right now I am representing 9 companies at the same time. Those are my personal skills, not all the companies our company works for.
So what about the Dell Optiplex and PowerEdge? The Micron ClientPro and NetFRAME? Do you still say that they are inferior as well, despite their acceptance by Linux distros and large corporations worldwide? One product line does not a corporation make, young Obi-Wan.
Stupiditiy leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Anger is the way of the dark side.
Perhaps you should try bludgeoning your head, then. It certainly would make this world a more peaceful place. Mentalities like yours are responsible for starting wars all over the world. Do the world a favor, and have a heart.
I tried that as well. Any suggestions that do make sense?
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
3. Point out the benefits of a legally licensed, preinstalled operating system. Customers have the original CD so they can reload the software. They also have a manual for everyday troubleshooting, and a Certificate of Authenticity that proves the software is legal. In short, protect your customer and your good name. Sell your PCs fully equipped with legally licensed operating systems preinstalled. Otherwise, who knows what you're leaving your customers--and yourself--open to?
Didn't MS stop shipping system with CDs for the very same reason?
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
Yes, but if a customer specifically asks for it (which is what this ad is talking about), then why ask them lots of questions?
As much as I hate to admit it, from a business standpoint, there are even a couple GOOD ideas. Warn customers that acquiring the PC "naked" and subsequently pirating the software is never a good option.
Businesses tend to not want to be the enforcers/educators of the law, because that makes people think less of them. Think of the things you've bought that could be used in dangerous ways... do the vedors usually warn you not to do anything dangerous with them? No... you're a grown-up.
If you specifically ask for a naked PC and don't sound like a clueless newbie, then why should they say anything?
--
I agree with everything you said, except for one thing:
I would argue that the chaos was created by either a) the adopters of the new version; or b) Microsoft. I know of no other field where the staus quo represents chaos.
1. Build your own PC and put whatever OS you want on it.
2. Purchase a computer from a reputable local shop. You will most likely get a higher quality machine, more hardware configuration options, *and* your choice of OS's. Not to mention you're supporting the growth of local commerce and small mom and pop shops
-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.
"First, I'm an European."
g rammar routine...
A European with a pretty bad grasp of English grammar, too.
Ahhh, the ever popular I-don't-have-a-comeback-so-I'll-just-insult-your-
Long signatures suck.
So even if you do purchase a "naked" PC and install linux, a chunk of your purchase price still goes to MS.
(Monopoly? Of course not!)
Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who its friends are.
Some computer stores don't even know their own hardware much less an operating system. I had trouble getting a computer built with the bare bones hardware minus the OS, for an an OpenBSD machine I was building. I was hounded by the store that they would not sell it without an operating system (basically the same reasons MS gave at their page). So later that afternoon I brought them OpenBSD disk and told them to put it on themselves if they felt compelled to install an OS, including my specifications. I got a call the next day asking to pick up my uninstalled machine and the BSD CD I left them with. Pity, I was looking forward to a little more free time. ;P
When I was your age we didn't have music file sharing utilities. We had to go out to a store and shoplift the CD.
From Microsoft's page:
Okay, now hold up a minute here. I recall a whole bunch of articles just a few months ago about how Microsoft was No Longer allowing major OEM's to ship Windows CD-ROMs[*] anymore. This was, as I recall, to help stop piracy.
First OEM's are no longer allowed to ship Windows CD's, and now this is one of the benefits customers get when they buy a computer with a pre-installed Microsoft Operating System?
Someone help me out here, I'm feeling confused. It doesn't quite make sense, there, does it? Is that not something of a contradiction? Perhaps I'm just not able to completely understand Microsoft's double talk, but this misinformation annoys me.
[*] InfoWorld Article 1, Article 2, Slashdot Editorial
--
Toph
Topher
I wonder if they're liable under UK law for ...
false advertising. After all, I read their
website from the UK
Is it just me, or does the guy in that picture look like he just stepped on a nude beach, saw a really beautiful naked woman, sported some wood and then averted his eyes in an attempt to kill his raging hard-on?
Probably just me.
Brandt
"Point out the benefits of a legally licensed, preinstalled operating system. Customers have the original CD so they can reload the software. They also have a manual for everyday troubleshooting, and a Certificate of Authenticity that proves the software is legal. " - a piece of paper!
cause you know, its impossible to aquire an OS LEGALLY from anywhere else. all those expensive copies of windows and linux i see in CompuUSA and Microcenter must be pirated. when will MS go reallize that if you want to stop piracy you have to go after the pushers!
-- Hail Eris
The poster is probably stuck buying from Dell due to corporate supidity. We had to replace all our functional VT320 terminals with PCs that were always crashing and locking up. And all we ran on them was a terminal emulator the pretended to be a VT320.
The new computers took more power, more space, and did not work nearly as well. So why did we have them? There was a contract to replace all terminals, ignoring the fact that we did not NEED the ability to use a word processor next to the CT scanner.
This is a great excuse for having some fun with Micro$oft. Try calling up their 800 number (free call for you, but not for them) and complaining about someone Hard Disk Loading a copy of Micro$oft Linux. "Honest! I saw them load your Microsoft Linux disk into three machines and they installed the same software on all three of them!" "But Micro$oft doesn't make Linux? I'm sure that's what I saw... Micro$oft Linux! L - I - N - U - X. Linux. Don't you know about Linux? I'm sure it was Micro$oft Linux. It even had the flying flag startup screen!" See how long you can keep them on the phone (remember: their dime, not yours) and pretend you're just a typical Micro$oft user trying to help them out. You can go a long way with this! Call 1-800-RU-LEGIT today to report your observed misuse of the Micro$oft Linux disk today! Call 1-800-785-3448 TODAY!!
I'm sure this has been said already...
How many people out there don't buy computers but build them? I work in an office full of folks who wouldn't own anything but their own custom built machines.
I guess I better warn all my friends about this, we wouldn't want to accidently install an illegal copy of windows on one of our machines, I know I have to watch myself so I don't accidently put that CD in and format my drive and put windows on.
My other big beef is this: How many people know at least one person with a CD writer? Enough said...
Silly slashdot, sigs are for kids!
I always buy the parts and build the machine myself. Unless they start putting Windows on hard drives as they come off the assembly line, my machines will always start "naked."
mov ax,13h int 10h
Operating System:
... /*insert every other free OS here*/
[] Linux free
[] OpenBSD free
[] FreeBSD free
[] iBSD free
[] NetBSD free
[] FreeDOS free
[] DOS 6.22 add $22.50
[] Windows NT Enterprise Server unlimited seat license add $30,000.00
[] No operating system
Installation:
[] Pre-installed
[] Since I can now tie my own shoelaces and cross the street on my own, I will throw caution to the wind and attempt my own installation.
If no operating system, please choose one of the following options:
[]I have legally obtain an operating system and intend to install it myself.
[]I have every intention of screwing poor, starving, innocent OS manufacturers of their hard earned earnings. I am a bad person. I will report myself immediately to my local law-enforcement authorities.
Isn't this kind of like trying to sue someone selling hard drives because Windows isn't installed on them?
"What possible use could someone have with a NAKED hard drive! By Gods! What is this, some crazy Linux cult?!!?"
Yeah...
"You are a pack of booger chewin' morons, and our fees are a tax which you must pay as many times as possible."
Considering where the data came from, and considering the composition of the Supreme Court, three courses of action recommend themselves. One, hope that overconsumption of MacDonald's mystery-meat causes cancer and heart disease even faster than is generally believed*, two, run linux, and three, vomit.
*Guess what B.G. is reputed to have eaten exclusively during a stay in Beijing.
To mail me, remove the 'mailno' from my email addy.
To mail me, remove the 'mailno' from my email addy.
"Yeah. It smells, too..."
(from the article)
3. Point out the benefits of a legally licensed, preinstalled operating system. Customers have the original CD so they can reload the software. They also have a manual for everyday troubleshooting, and a Certificate of Authenticity that proves the software is legal. In short, protect your customer and your good name. Sell your PCs fully equipped with legally licensed operating systems preinstalled. Otherwise, who knows what you're leaving your customers--and yourself--open to?
Gee... if that was so important then MicroSoft should let the PC retailers actually ship a copy of that Operating System CD to the customer, instead of a BIOS locked coaster that is mostly useless. Otherwise they are forcing people "in the know" to buy a 'naked PC's and install the OS themselves... even if its Windows.
If anything this is hurting their credibility (is that even possible anymore?)
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
stores that ask to see your bags or hold them etc are attempting what amounts to illegal search and seizure
*sigh* When are people going to learn? The Bill of Rights and similar documents restrict what the government can do, not private entities like people and corporations. Ever notice how the Bill of Rights uses the phrase "Congress shall make no law" a lot? That's right, it prevents Congress from passing laws. It does not say one damn thing about what I'm allowed to do to you.
If I'm a store owner, I can make it a condition that, in order to enter my store -- which is my own property -- you have to submit yourself to search. You are in no way obligated to submit yourself to said search, but I am also in no way obligated to serve you. It's my store; I can tell you to get out if I want.
(Now, you could make the case that, since you never signed a contract, I cannot hold you to the agreement, but you would have to bring it before a court of law claiming damages or something. Hardly worth the effort. Just go to another store.)
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
So I kept the windows partition on my spanking new Thinkpad just to play Myst. Myst installed DirectX 6, and since then the computer has been silent. I've uninstalled and reinstalled the sound driver, done this in safe mode, done this with virgin copies of the drivers downloaded from IBM, used the saved configuration from ConfigSafe - still no sound.
Not much experience with windows - is this one of those cases where I have to reinstall the system? Or can I actually figure out if any DLLs got "upgraded" and need to be reverted? I last used a PC back in the days of Windows 3.1 and MSDOS so this is all a mystery to me - they call *this* easy to use? Give me Solaris (or Linux or even AIX) any day...
Anyway, any ideas appreciated.
"I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."
It was a parody on dumbentia, but this Microsoft page really LOOKS like it!
http://www.dumbentia.com/pdflib/scared.pdf
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Huh, nice piece of FUD - using a generic plural thereby implying that any operating system not pre-installed is illegal. And we all know what operating systems come pre-installed....
No mention of Windows/2K anywhere in the article.
Classic FUD posing as helpful advice.
"shop smart:shop s-mart" ash
"Selling" is a gerund, not a verb.
"Compares," though, was a verb, last I checked.
----------
I bought a naked PC. Told my wholesaler I didn't want an O/S and he didn't include one. I mean I already have copies of all the NT's, 2000's, Win 9x's and a couple of Linux's, as well as Solaris 8 that I have aquired in the process of performing my duties (for evaluation and testing purposes only of course ;-)). I don't understand what the big hassle is, I had no trouble stipulating that I didn't want to give MS money for something I didn't want to buy (read pay for) in the first place.
You're using her as bait, Master!
That page is directed to OEM selling to small businesses or individuals. The funny thing is that Microsoft is talking as if the is no way to get a working PC without getting pirated software. That is what I funny about that article.
3.Point out the benefits of a legally licensed, preinstalled operating system. Customers have the original CD so they can reload the software.
So what "technical" skills are required for "installing" the OS that are different from those required for "re-installing" the OS?
--brian
I just tried to by a Dell a couple of weeks ago sans OS, and they told me that they didn't want to expose me to the trouble that would cause me. So I went elsewhere. Problem solved.
Nate Baxley
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
I woulld attribute this page of "suggestions" not to malice but to mere stupidity and shortsitedness of the author. Of course he didn't consider a free OS to be installed by the customer of the "naked PC". The author is simply an idiot.
I think it is very likely that anyone who asks for a "naked PC" knows what they are doing, and are fully aware of how to install an operating system. I buy all my PCs without an operating system (in fact, I buy a collection of parts and assemble them). If a vendor gives me the Microsoft-sanctioned spiel, I'll just have to politely tell him not to patronize me.
Or is it just a scheme to make Linux users pay for a MICROS~1 operating system each time they upgrade their machine?
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Hooray! I only submitted this story LAST YEAR...
slightly over a year ago actually.
You are assuming, as are most of the other posters here, that you are buying a copy of the software.
You are not.
You are purchasing the right to keep and use a copy of the software under certain circumstances, as detailed in you EULA.
This is a completely different thing.
There are limits and restrictions on what you can do with the software. Now, I have not read a Microsoft EULA for a long, long time (strictly penguin-ware at home) but it would seem to me that, once you accept the idea of buying this rather neboulous concept of a "licence" [and I, personally, don't think contract law should allow it], then it is quite reasonable that any contractually binding restrictrions can be imposed.
It would seems to be entirely reasonable -- within this framework -- to limit your use to a single computer. I don't know if Microsoft actually does this, but I can't see why they wouldn't? Seems as reasonable as the whole EULA concept [i.e. not at all...]
It fits well with Microsoft's policy of shipping versions of Windows that is "crippled" to a particular hardware configuration.
<rant>
If you value your freedom, then by all means buy and pay good money for a copy of some useful or interesting software. Even if you don't get a copy of the source. But don't sell yourself to lifetime bondage [*] for a copy of edlin.
</rant>
([*] I checked a Microsoft EULA once: your obligations did not end if you returned or destroyed all copied of the software. Even death didn't free you: your estate would still be liable.)
Hi!
No, it's just amusing. Microsoft is almost 20,000 people; it isn't too shocking if some guy in marketing writes ad copy that doesn't track perfectly with what the company is doing wiht OEM licensing.
It does open them wide up for complaints about that evil new OEM licensing policy: "Your own web page points out why the customer should always get a system CD!"
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
No, the retailer has done Microsoft's part. The retailers part is to make money selling computers, and that would be better served by selling the bloody computer, naked if that is what the customer wants.
Besides, if all "naked" Pc-buyers are pirates by default, who are supposed to buy the boxed Windows sets?
In Murphy We Turst
ooooo, now I've been trolled by an AC with such deep insights. But was "trollboy" the best you could come up with? I mean, at least get some offensive language in there, maybe a racial slur or two?
--------
-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
They're not the only ones that can politely decline. If they refuse to do that (not install a OS) for me... The shop down the street might. They'res plenty of shops, and you could even build your own. If they politely decline, politely take your money elsewhere.
When abusing the +1 posting bonus, it should be required to attach some sort of label (like with moderation) to one's own post. That way the above poster can clearly label his/her post as "Troll" so that the rest of us won't waste our energy countering the obviously inflammatory and ignorant statements.
I do not have a signature
Hey, wanna be safe?
... You get the idea.
:-)
Buy any machine built around the PowerPC or Sparc or MIPS or Alpha or ia64 or Cray or S390 or
M$ has nothing that can run on those.
Give Bill the finger.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
They think I'm gonna $180 for their WinME or $500-1000 for Windows2K? haha! sorry! I will continue to pirate their OS. Why should I pay them to use Windows? I am not using it for commercial purposes. How is it hurting them? I am not stealing from them.
Okay, say I never used Windows in my life. Does it affect them in any way, when I pirate their software? No. Who determines the prices on these things anyway? They are completely arbitrary. How come one OS costs $180 while another costs $80.
Okay, I'm gonna make a piece of software that says "Hello World". I will put it up on my site, and charge $400 to use it. It will even say, you must pay $400 or this is illegal to use. This fucker is stealing from me!!!
Okay, what happens when I take the image off their cd, change a couple of bytes, and zip it. Is it still theirs? no way! Its mine now!! I zipped it up, now the bits are arranged in a totally different order, just like when they compiled their software, their c code (er, then again, maybe they used vb to make windows) was compiled into executable code. I just compiled my own zip file! yay! its mine now.
Microsoft calls themselves Innovators. They keep bitching about their right to Innovate. Yea right! I challenge you to name one thing they've done that hasn't already been done before.
Blah, whatever. Feel free to flame me. I'm only human, so what if my views are a little fucked up compared to yours.
I can sell a used CD.
No Garth Brooks I'm not paying you more than once. Wait I don't listen to Garth Brooks.
To parse that you'd have to know the RIAA tried shut down used sales.
I can put new tires on my old car and my old tires elsewhere on a swing.
Am I infringing on the dealers tire rights?
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
The computer and the Operating systems are two different entities what if I want to install DOS 4.0 on my machine, or 6.2, or even windows 3.11 to run something like ccMail, no computer store is going to sell that to me, why should I pay for an OS that I'm not going to need?
I've purchased machines just to run OS/2 to do SNA gateways for work. Find me a computer store that is more qualified than I am to install OS/2...
I'm an AIX Systems administrator, and yes I do cry myself to sleep at night....
Not so sure. OEM copies are illegal to distribute without a computer BUT it doesn't limit fair use. In other words the manufacturer of that Celeron in your example cannot distribute his relatively cheap license without a computer BUT you as the consumer can use it as you wish. Again one use at a time. Now MS and others may disagree since they want to shape license agreements in the most favorable light for MS. But fair use is not yet dead though the lobbiests stand above its body with sharpened knives.
"Fair Use" applies only to copyright... because the software is "licensed" under original strict terms that you agreed with before you ever first used it, the concept of "fair use" is no longer applicable as you've already waived any rights you might have had under fair use doctrine.
What about all those millions of copies of Windoze [insert year here] we see on the shelves of the major software stores? If this is MS policy, why do they sell boxed, non OEM versions of their software?
What happens if you're upgrading a machine that you no longer plan to use anymore, and want to transfer your license (probably breaks license agreement anyway)? What about ghost installs in corporations with multi-user licenses?
What a joke. MS alienates their customers again, suprise suprise. They are extremely paranoid.
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
But didn't we just read on /. a couple of months ago how Micro$oft is no longer supplying the install CD's to user's who buy a computer with a pre-installed OS? So the answer is "Even if I wanted to put Windows on my computer it's better to buy a naked computer and then purchase Windows separatly so I can have the CD." What happens when I hit a web page that says "Flash is required to view this web page. Please place your Window NT Workstation CD#1 into the CD drive now."
And, of course, isn't this an example of Microsoft saying "The only reason for a user to buy a 'naked' computer is to pirate our OS." Which really means "Because of our monopoly we do not see any legit reason for any user to want any OS that is not produced by Microsoft."
Isn't this a blatent admission of their own monopoly?
So the bottom line is a PC needs Windows to run. If that isn't the most anticompetive presumption I've ever heard, I don't know what is. Did it ever occur to them that there might be people who want to put other OSes on a computer? Or that they already have valid liscenses and want to install Windows themselves from scratch, free from any of the crappy software that comes with it? Paired with the growing practise of recovery disk images, this isn't an option anymore. This is definitely a good idea for anyone who makes their own disk images for multiple computers. The truth is, though, it did occur to them, and this is one more step to making evading the Windows tax a criminal offense.
Me: HI! I would like to buy a computer
,man command>, may I'll read the FAQ, and if all else fails ask a question in #debian!
Salesman: Ok, we sell all kinds of computers! What would you like?
Me: I would like a AMB Athlon at 1ghz on an Abit KT7, with two 256 megs DIMM's, five 40 gig IBM drives, a DvD and a 48x CD-ROM, a voodoo 5500, a netgear 312tx, and a Sound Blaster Platnium 5.1 in I want it all it crammed into Enlight 7 bay server case.
Sellman: Ok, that comes to $3,538.53.
Me: But in your ad, the parts comes up to $2,986.98. With tax, that's 3,176.45. Where does the other come from?
Sellman: Windows 2000
Me: Hold on, did I say I want Windows?
Sellman: Your PC will not work without an operating system. Preinstalling the operating system on the your new PC saves considerable time, expense and trouble. After all, my expertise is top notch. I install system software day in, day out, so there is little question I'm best equipped to do it well.
Me: I want to run Debian.
Sellman: That won't without windows. It's not a good idea to acquiring a PC "naked" and subsequently pirating the software. It's simple never a good option
Me: Debian is NOT PIRATED SOFTWARE. Also Debian doesn't run in windows!! It's Linux.
Sellman: Oh! Linux! We sell that. Here. (puts a Red Hat 7.0 box on the counter)
Me: GOOD GOD MAN!! Are you crazy?
Sellman: What? You ask for Linux. This is Linux.
Me: THAT'S NOT LINUX!! That's some corprate trash riddle with bugs. I wouldn't run that if you paid me a million dollars. I quit jobs becuase I had to use that crap.
Sellman: I thought you wanted to run Debian?
Me: Debian is an os. It's Linux.
Sellman: Hmmm, (looks arounds)
Me: What are you doing?
Sellman: Seeing how much Debian costs.
Me: Debian is free!! You download it from the debian mirror site, I have my own, and apt-get updates by ftp.
Sellman: I have to point of the benefits of a legally licensed, preinstalled operating system. You'll have the original CD and you can reload the software.
Me: DEBIAN IS FREE AND I HATE CDS!!
Sellman: If you buy this(points to RedHat 7.0 box) You'll have a manual for everyday troubleshooting, and a Certificate of Authenticity that proves the software is legal.
Me: What? If I ever need to check something about Debian, I would do
Sellman: I'm just trying to protect your and my good name. That's why I sell PCs fully equipped with legally licensed operating systems preinstalled. Otherwise, who knows what I'm levaing you and myself-open to.
Me: Protect my good name? What's wrong with my name? Are you saying there is something wrong with me becuase I run debian?
Sellman: You said you downloaded it from the internet. It's ether pirated or shitware.
Me: Debian is the best damn Linux distro on this green Earth!! Look, I'll forget that you're a moron, just sell me the system, I'll walk out of here and I'll never ask you another question.
Sellman: I can't, I have to sell you an OS.
Me: Forget it, I'll buy the parts online.
MarNuke
Is it your implication that the quoted sentance, in fact, has no verb?
I would point you to the word "compares"
subject: "The Nakes PC page"
Verb: compares
It is badly worded and breaks common grammar rules (not that there is anything wrong with that - grammar is afterall more a statment of how language is used than rules that language is created from) - but it does so for completely
different reasons than "not having a verb", as it has 2 ("directed").
It would better be written as:
"The Naked PC page, which is directed at independant computer shops, compares selling PC's without an operating system with "selling a house without a roof"
-Steve
who just couldn't resist
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
The incredible cheek of these people!
Regards, Ralph.
The thing is, those who want a 'naked' PC plan on isntalling their own choice of operating system. Why ask for a naked PC? Since then they aren't relying on the dealer/oem to install one they don't want and certainly don't want to pay for.
In the current consumer market it may make sense to use WinMe or Win2000 as the default -- for those who *want* Windows. If someone doesn't want Windows, why make them pay for it? Thus the request for a 'naked' PC. Won't/Can't sell a 'naked' PC? Fine, put any free OS (Linux, BSD, even FreeDOS, etc.) on it and it isn't naked.. and the customer can keep the OS or wipe it and not be out the "Windows tax." Microsoft should be free to make money -- providing they make it *honestly*. If a customer wants Windows, sell it to him or her. If not, don't go mugging him and forcing him to pay for Windows anyway. 'tain't ethical.
It's a matter of not screwing the customer. I don't agree that *all* machines should run Linux. For many, that'd be a problem. But do let the customer have a choice. What happened to "the customer is always right"? A seller may *advise* a customer -- but should not dictate.
Think the customer is wrong? Suggest, but don't dictate. The customer is free to be wrong. And some value that freedom more than being forced to be someone else's version of "right."
I don't subscribe to RMS's GNUtopian vision.
I just bought myself a new machine, and it had the option for 'no OS, just format hard drive', as well as Win98, Win2K and WinME. (No Linux installs, interestingly enough - but there's also no Linux drivers for the Radeon yet that I know of.)
Now, what, they're going to demand that all hard drives come with a copy of Windows, because installing a hard drive might cause an installation of an infringing copy of Windows? I think that WD and Maxtor will display the Half Peace Sign to Microsoft in that situation - they don't roll over very much that I've seen.
What IS an 'infringement' anyway? If I take the HD out of my P2-266 running Win98 in a partition and ghost it over to that partition on my new HD, is that an infringement if the P2-266 no longer is running? Or, according to MicroSoftDoubleThink(1), should I have gone to get a totally completely brand new copy of Win98 and gotten on my knees and thanked Bill Gates for the glory of his taking my money from me?
I invite Bill Gates to bite my wide pale white-boy ass.
(1) MicroSoftDoubleThink is a trademark of Microsoft Corporation. What Do You Want To Think Today? We'll Tell You. Don't Worry. Be Happy. Love Big Brother Bill.
----
Brazil has decided you're cute.
It's not like selling a house without a roof, its like selling a house without furniture.
-- "Perceptions create reality. By changing your perceptions you change your reality."
I loved this:
If I buy a naked PC, how exactly am I "at risk" of acquiring an unauthorized OS? Will I walk down the street with my new PC and a copy of Windows will jump in from an alley? This is just silly. People who choose to use an unlicensed copy did so willingly. There is no risk, the buyer either will or will not.
This also implies that if the OEM installs an operating system, that the customer is safe from the "legal risks." If the customer takes his happy little WindowsME box, downloads a copy of Windows 2000 and installs it, he's most certainly at legal risk.
I'm also fond of the repeated implications that an OEM who sells naked PCs might be liable for some sort of damage. There are plenty of valid reasons to get a naked box (My business has a site license for Windows or I'm installing a different operating system). No sane person would find an OEM guilty of copyright infringement. (If the OEM sold or gave away unauthorized copies of Windows, or actively encouraged people to get such copies, that would be a very different story.)
Bah, typical Microsoft FUD. There are good reasons to sell naked PCs.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
Seriously speaking, though, I've gone through enough shitty pre-built machines that I only purchase parts piecemeal. A mobo here, a case there... and a brand-spanking-new HD that came directly from the wholesaler to me, shrink-wrapped and all.
Five tons of flax.
0
$
I don't see a single mentioning of "Windows" in there.
lca.c: In function `main':
lca.c:5: warning: return type of `main' is not `int'
.
Forcing a vendor to put Windows on a PC is like putting used Firestones on Explorer...... Your just waiting for a crash to happen.
Apparently Bill likes the Taliban's thinking on religious freedom and wants to apply it to the software markets.
hmm...perhaps that's the reasoning behind this statement?
(Yeah, this piece of stunning MS prose implies a whole lot, but that's a different piece of cake altogether.
From an OEM standpoint, this makes sense (though any OEM or retailer that doesn't already know this stuff shouldn't be in the business). Buying a computer without an OS is, for many (most?) customers, kinda useless. Then again, any biz worthy of the name should know about Linux and BeOS and *BSD and all those other toys anyway.
As much as I hate to admit it, from a business standpoint, there are even a couple GOOD ideas.
Sound practice, that. If the customer says, "No, I'm not pirating anything, I'm putting Linux on that machine," the retailer has done their part. They've done just about everything they can legally do, short of refusing the sale. And if they won't sell you a so-called naked PC, the guy down the street probably will...(The whole discussion of whether it's a retailer's job to act as unpaid agents for the anti-piracy faction is better left elsewhere.)
I couldn't resist making a slight change to their text. Read on:
SELL YOUR CUSTOMER A SOLUTION, NOT A PROBLEM?
Your customers depend on you. Trouble is, if you act on your customers' willingness to buy Windows PCs--knowing full well they are at risk of acquiring free operating systems elsewhere--you expose them to legal risks, viruses, and frustrating technical troubles. Hardly the stuff of great business relationships, particularly when they come back to you for help. And even if your customer manages to acquire and install free operating systems elsewhere, it still costs them far more time and money than they bargained for. No matter how you look at them, Windows PCs are bad for your customers. Which means they are also bad for you.
Hmm....sounds good to me. :-)
cya
Ethelred
Everyone wants to be Ethelred. Even I want to be Ethelred.
So if i buy all the components to build my own computer, should i be forced to buy a copy of windows as well?
What about if i buy a bigger hard drive? If i'm doing that i'll have to wipe that illegal copy of windows off the old one.
How about the people who are buying prepackaged systems to install (gasp) NT on them? Why should they pay for a copy of 95 (or 98 or ME)?
if i didn't know any better i'd say microsoft feels threatened by the sliver of competition that has sprung up
--
There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
Frankly I find Microsoft's suggestions as to what salespeople should point out to me as a customer anywhere from insulting to... well, horribly insulting. My likely responses to said salesman:
Why don't they recommend that the dealer keep the Windows CD, because the customer will probably just give it to a friend? Plus, the customer can't possibly be capable of installing the OS him/herself, so why should they even have this?
As a longtime proud builder of "Naked PCs" for myself and my friends, this REALLY pissed me off. Thank you, Redmond.
That'll teach 'em. I bet they are scrambling to find and fire the idiot who put that up there. While your at it, tell them to get rid of those clouds already...
This is not as big of an issue as you would like to make it out to be. You are being neither rational, nor helpful to the OSS cause. The only OEMs that would even consider the "Naked PC" page as helpful are ones who would only offer M$ products in the first place.
Choose your battles, young jedi.
jc
>This isn't really 100% true (Perhaps with the
>exception of Slackware). From my experiences, the
>default Linux filesystem is extermely finicky and
>anything other than a careful shutdown
>( ctrl-alt-del or "shutdown" or "reboot" ) will
>end up in a serious FS problem, which at least
>will require a fsck -f to fix and at worst will
>trash the filesystem completely.
During storms which are frequent in this area
in the summer I get forced shutdowns and aside
from the long fsck I have seen no particular
problem. On winblows I had to reinstall a few
times because of unrecoverable errors. You might
think that I was not lucky but considering that it
is on the same machine I would fail to see your
point.
I use SuSE 7.0
"They also have a manual for everyday troubleshooting"
I love this, how many times have you ever found useful info in a M$ manual? Yeah you know those 15 page leaflets on how to turn on High Contrast Color.o go.gif
And I've got my money on the fact that Gates himself came up with the idea for the photoshoot of that photo at the top!
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/images/antip_npc_sbl
Also notice the 'anti' in the image name? Looks like a little more than just a friendly reminder, or what is that supposed to refer to the anti___?
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
I don't see what Taco is getting at by posting this article. Of course they want OEM's to distribute their operating system rather than leaving them open to inheriting an illegal copy. They never definitively state that it WILL have a pirated copy installed if sold "naked", but only that the possibilty exists. I know for a fact that there are some "OEMs" that actually distribute all of their PC's with the same copy of Windows.
They are trying to explain the reasons to do the "OEM-thing" with MS which is better than forcing them to distribute Windows exclusively like they have been accused of in the past. Just my $.02.
Chris
In the article, it says 'A naked PC is bad for the customer, and therefore bad for you'.
Exactly HOW is it bad for the reseller? They're not breaking any laws, because last time I checked, it wasn't a law that a PC had to come with an OS. If the customer breakes the law, how is that the reseller's fault?
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
The article NEVER claims that everyone will install pirated software. The wording is, in fact, "...knowing full well they are at risk of acquiring pirated operating systems elsewhere... ." This even leaves open the possibility of them obtaining a pirated version through ignorance.
Please, don't shoot your credibility (however little that is) by misquoting the article. It's funny enough as it is.
>K
I'm sure that everyone is excited to bash Microsoft, but use half a brain cell and realized that this is just a sales pitch.
1. Notice that its addressed to OEMs. Not consumers. OEMs know enough about technology that they know about Linux and can read contracts.
2. Its also to help computer retailers make more sales. Its just a sales pitch. Oracle/Sun/Apple also does this.
3. This is not news worthy. Microsoft wants their OS on every PC sold. Wow. Really big news.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Then the X11 vendors could get in the act: "We don't just sell Windows, we sell you a Window System. It would be akin to those somewhat unscrupulous dealers who sell "vinyl window systems" to retirees...
The independant PC vendors can just install Linux or FreeDOS or something else they know people will wipe (or maybe even want), and viola, it has an OS.
________________________________________
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
Ok Slashdot people. The /. has been loosing quality for quite some time. But still sometimes people do some good hits. Well this may sound not quite well when flaming Microsoft. But here the problem is more about consumer rights and what M$ is doing with them...
Did you well read the NakedPC article. Well read it? Ok go and read again and come back right here...
Let's open a document package for a IBM 300GL of July 1999. Well there are two plastic packages. One for IBM hardware itself. Other for Microsft docs. You open IBM pack first. Well does not follow exactly the law. But the basics are there:
-Security measures
-Instructions for installation
-Information on consultations and service
-Warranty
-Other notes
Everything is in Russian and English. There is also a note that shows that this product follows EU directive EC 89/366/EEC. Well everything almost goes according to Russian Law.
Now we open the Microsoft pack. What we see?
Microsoft Registration Card
Starting working with Windows98
The first page of "Starting Working.." shows a Certificate of Authenticity and two warnings:
-"Distributed with New Computers Only"
-"For technical support you should direct to computer reseller"
Now on the last page there are a few instructions and a mention that this product is licensed by Microsoft Licensing Inc.
Now let's go to the best of the best...
On the second page of this document there is a copyright warning that states that no part of this document can be reproduced in any form and for any purposes. Sorry Redmonders, on Russian Law I still have the right to cite it under certain restrictions. Besides my citations end here...
Now we go through every page of this beautiful document. We list every page. And we come to questions. Serious questions.
-Where is the EULA?
-Where is the Warranty?
-Why this guide talks about installing Windows on other computers? What is written in the first page?
Until now no one in Russian revoked the obligation of having a printed Warranty. That strictly follows Russian law besides. Here I still have the right to reverse engineer programs under several restrictions. Your electronic EULA that appears at computer start does not follows this btw. Besides the EULA is meaningless as nowhere in Russian Federal Law is written that "clicking here you agree to..." means a form of agreement. An agreement is only an agreement if you have purchased a product with a written license. Not an EULA or a HELL, but a written license that follows the Russian Federal Law. You don't distribute your products with such stuff.
Now let's go back to IBM's docs. Nowhere in these docs I can see anything related to Microsoft's products except a reference to trademarks. Besides IBM's warranty excludes any reference to software and strictly states that techical support extends only to hardware.
Meanwhile...
I can't know how much I exactly pay for the Microsoft product. People talk about sums raging from $50 to $100 for a Win98 copy. Everything I get is: IBM 300GL - $$$$. Officially IBM never tells me the exact cost and only mentions some "internal agreements" with Microsoft.
This is the way Microsoft defends its consumers: NakedOS. And they talk about legality of selling NakedPCs
Microsoft should just follow suit with ATT and charge everyone in the world on the grounds that even if you're not using Windoze, someone you're dealing with or purchasing from IS...
"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake."...Tyler Durden
I'd like to have a Certificate of Authenticity for my Linux installations. Does anyone know where I can download one?
:-)
Molly.
M$ can bitch until they are blue in the face about people transfering non-transferrable copies of Windows, but as far as I'm concerned it will fall on deaf ears. To me the whole idea of a non-transferable copy of Windows is just M$ finding yet another way to rape the pocketbooks of their customers, and I am NOT going to pay for a fourth copy of Windows when I already only use one out of the first three that I was forced to buy.
Well, you can look at the "sinister" side of this, but really it just says "pirating is rampant...if you know the customer is just going to install a pirated OS, don't let them leave without a copy." This isn't directed at Linux-savvy people...it's the people who you know will run Windows and warez and don't give a sh*t about where it came from. MS has to have a written stance on this kind of thing, so here it is.
Buy the PC without a harddrive, and buy the harddrive separate. I did that when I bought my laptop which of course is Micros~1 free. I didn't even have to return any CD with that legacy OS !!
RFC1925
If you purchased Windows 95 a couple years ago and are planning on installing it on your new computer, why should you pay the Windows tax again? If Word 6.0 does everything you could possibly want in a word processor, why should you have to pay to upgrade to a newer version? People are getting sick of the neverending upgrade cycle. Computers are becoming less and less novel, and people are depending on them more to do real work. People don't expect to have to buy new file cabinets every year because paper sizes change and new documents don't fit in the file cabinet. Yet they are forced to pay for new versions of Word just to be able to read new documents from other people, and buy new versions of Windows just to run applications. It's not going to last.
Isn't this quite simply stating "We have a monopoly because without Windows pre-installed you're running illegally". Isn't this evidence out of MS's own mouth that could be used against them? That really makes me want to take Windows off my machine even without all the drivers I need to run Linux or FreeBSD.
--
-- SIGFPE
My wife and I have several Windows machines at home - she's a technical writer, specializing in MS Exchange, I do Windows development. I don't believe (with the exception of my laptop) that we have any machine that isn't slated to eventually have multiple OS installations... generally some mixture of Win95, Win98, WinME, WinNT, and Win2K.
I have also set up multiple dual-boot systems for various small businesses with a dual-boot configuration of DOS 6 and Win9x... typically, DOS in order to run legacy applications that blow up under Win9x, Win9x for email and more modern apps. Never mind that we've gotten to the point where Win95 is a "legacy" OS as well... anyone yet had to install DOS, Win95 and WinME in order to support legacy apps?
When I ask a dealer for a naked system, it's not because I'm planning on pirating software; it's because the tradiational, AOL-using, consumer view of "one computer == one OS" doesn't always hold true.
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
For work, I buy quite a few machines a year (about 20-30 depending on contracts) from Dell. I then gut the machines, add my own hardware (Digiboards, Network Memory Boards, FO Ethernet, Colorgraphics boards, etc...) and my own operating system. Problem is, the only way I can buy these machines is with a modem, video card, and Winbloze ME. I have a drawer full of WinModems, video card (pretty good ones too) and Windows licenses. How much money am I wasting paying for Windows ME, that I don't need and have no use for. Of course, M$ likes it this way, since I effectily paid for two copies of Windows. The WinME that came pre-installed and the Win2000 I had to buy seperatly to put on the machine. It is a rip-off, and I would build the machines myself if it was an option.
The article makes a weak apeal, cry for help.
;)
There is nothing that M$ can do about naked PCs- they just know that it hurts their sales and they want to present a "working solution" to shareholders.
It won't make a difference anyway 'cuz vendors know they won't be liable for selling clean hardware. Unless....... did somebody already patent this idea?
Often I ask people what sort of PC they have, hoping for a reply like, "oh, a Pentium II 450". Very often I get an answer along the lines of "Huh, I don't know, it's Windows" (along with a puzzled expression on their faces.)
I think your points are precisely the reason that Microsoft's hardware products are primarily keyboards and mice. As long as the majority of users see a windows logo on their keyboard, and "microsoft" on the mouse, they keep people from making a mental distinction between the computer itself, and the operating system - to these people, it's a "Windows computer".
I always wondered to these people who keep preinstalled OS on their computers. Its like to have a hacker with full root access on your computer and let it be. The only you can do to be sure the system you have is secure is to install it yourself or get it from some image certified by some authority, but to trust some PC selling company is like to trust a hacker who claims he is White Hat!
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
- You install system software day in, day out, so there is little question you're best equipped to do it well.
- [snippit]
- Customers have the original CD so they can reload the software.
so in what sense is 'installing' different from 'reloading' ?Iwan
Warn customers that acquiring the PC "naked" and subsequently pirating the software is never a good option. Explain the risks: technical troubles, upgrade problems, viruses and the law. Politely decline to expose your buyers or their businesses to such troubles.
If I understand correctly, Microsoft implies that if I buy a fully equipped PC with Windows installed, it'd be virus and trouble free?
I guess all you guys bitchin about M$ use a pirated copy of Windows.
I bet Micro$oft is quietly lobbying Congress to pass a bill that would levy a tax against any computer sold without an operating system installed. Say a megar $200 tax to cover the cost of the Windows 2000 they didn't sell.
I have just now submitted the following to Microsoft as feedback via their feedback option on their website, let's see if I get a reply ;)
After reading your page: http://www.microsoft.com/oem/nakedPC.htm, I would like to known the answer to the following questions:
1) Why is Microsoft, really, opposed to letting the customer of computer-hardware decide what affiliation he wishes to have with any OS vendor.
> Your customers depend on you. Trouble is, if you act on your
> customers' willingness to buy Naked PCs-knowing full well they
> are at risk of acquiring pirated operating systems elsewhere-you
> expose them to legal risks, viruses, and frustrating technical troubles.
2) Why should PC-resellers's take the decision for customers who are perfectly able to choose themselves?
2.1) What places Microsoft in a situation where it is nessesary, or desireable to give advice regarding the business strategy of companies not affiliated with Microsoft?
2.2) I fail to see why users are extraordinary vulnerable to virus, or run any more of a risk of installing piracy software, because the PC is bundled with an operating system, could Microsoft please elaborate on how that could happen.
3) How can OEM's get additional tech-support problems when they have actually sold only hardware, since software (such as Microsoft Windows, or Microsoft Word) generate by far the greatest support burden for support departments?
>And even if your customer manages to illegally acquire and install
>operating systems elsewhere, it still costs them far more time and
>money than they bargained for
4) In the spirit of competition, is it not in the buyers interest to be able to buy a certain commodity where it is cheapest, not in bundles?
5) Operating systems may still be purchased seperatly, or licensed without payment, such as several free operating systems that are available gratis. Is Microsoft unaware of that?
If yes, why does Microsoft see every other operating system than Microsoft Windows as a pirate OS yields no credit to Microsoft as a fair, competitive company? ("if your customer manages to illegally acquire and
install operating systems")
6) How is selling a computer without an OS more like selling a house without a roof, than like selling a flashlight without batteries?
7) Assuming Microsoft really means that "Naked PC's" are that bad for the business of OEM, how does Microsoft explain the large sales of these.
8) In my home country, Denmark, the bundling of products, as proposed by Microsoft is illegal, if the product cannot be purchased seperatly from the same vendor for an amount not deviating to much from the bundled price, would Microsoft back a proposal to remove this law?
9) Microsofts suggested course of action hardly seems to benefit the customer, or the hardware-reseller since: the customer is unable to get what he want's from the hardware-reseller, and thus is forced take his shopping elsewhere. Would Microsoft argue that this is bad practice from the customer? Does Microsoft really believe that the customers buying "Naked PC's" will buy Microsoft Windows from resellers following the advice on the page?
SLOGEN [ http://ungdomshus.nu : Sebastian cover music]
Okay, now hold up a minute here. I recall a whole bunch of articles just a few months ago about how Microsoft was No Longer allowing major OEM's to ship Windows CD-ROMs[*] anymore. This was, as I recall, to help stop piracy
Yes indeedy. So they ship system-restore CDs instead, which have a system image on them -- aka Windows. But they're targetted to that model of machine only, and you get all the OEM stuff.
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
You are not.
It depends on what state you live in. Some jurisdictions have upheld click-wrap licenses. Others have not.
Actually, click-wrap's standing may be questionable even in jurisdicitons that rely on ProCD.
ProCD held that the EULAs were valid contracts because the customer had the option to return the software for a refund if the customer disagreed with the EULA. There was no judicial notice taken of the fact that the majority of retail stores will not give refunds if the software package has been opened.
Having read the ProCD opinion, I am under the impression, that had it been brought to the court's attention that there is no oportunity to read the EULA before paying and that both the software manufactorer and the retailer refuse to refund the money after reading the EULA, the court would have ruled differently.
Then there is also the question of fraud. According to the lawyer at Staple's headquarters, the reason Staples will not give refunds for opend software is that the manufactorers will not give them a refund for opened software.
I feel like picking a fight with everyone who thinks they are right. - Rainmakers
Not to mention the Flaming for fun and profit procedure:-)
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
This might not get noticed seeing as how this is getting to be an "old" post by recent standards :)
.CABs and etc, just no setup.exe. Use the one from the \cabs folder and you're good to go!
But from my experiences, most OEM machines DO HAVE the installable files (All from \Win98 on the OEM CD for example) in the C:\windows\options\cabs folder. The setup.exe is almost always there, you can burn that folder to CD and have a installable OEM copy right there.
Others that come with a "Companion" CD (Old practice, most don't even do that anymore) have all the
Somebody with some free time Gimp up an image of the penguin throwing a blanket on the poor Naked PC dude. That would be funny. Things in the lab to do... things in the lab to do...
I can't find the link to ESR's article from Linux Journal about the fact that Microshaft makes alot of their money by playing games with their own stock this combined with Neal Stephenson's thoughts on the importance of mindshare to M$ in ITBTWTCL makes it obvious they *have* to maintain the illusion in the average Joe's mind that Winders is *the* OS. If it ever becomes clear to users that winders is not a fundamental part of the computer in the same way the mobo is there will be a mass revolt and people will start to understand that they do in fact have choices and this will be very bad for M$.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
perhaps I should force them to let me install my copy of linux that I downloaded and burned to a cd(ooooh! net piracy) in the shop?
I'm sure they'd get pretty sick even if it was just one geek a day. Especially if you took your time to do all those special little tweaks to get your system working at max.
In the same vein as MS's argument, the gvn't today has announced a new set of regulations. Since having people run around nude is illegal, they are now requiring all doctors and potential mothers to dress their children before they are born.
A Government Spokesperson said that "Microsoft had a wonderful idea. If we dont clothe our children before they are born then there exists the possibility that they might break the law by walking around naked."
words cannot express the anger i am feeling right now. what right does microsoft have to spread this kind of inflamitory FUD?
let's put os holy wars aside for a second here. I do have a few windows using friends, and most of them prefer to build thier own system as well as install thier own copy of windows. Why? because they actually care about the legality of it. A few years back one of my friends bought a custom PC and paid for office whatever as an option. He thought he was picking up a *legal* copy. When he got the system and a PHOTOCOPIED manual he swore off getting any software preinstalled. Honestly i don't blame him.
As much as we dislike microsoft and would like to see them burn, there are honest people out there who do infact buy windows.
All in all, i definatly think this is aimed at the mom and pop PC stores. These are the people who use Windows and actually like it "Because Microsoft Said So(tm)", and will pretty much think what microsoft tells them to think because they don't know any better. We all know the type of person and probably have a few friends who are in this mind set (these are the same people who blindly bash mac os... even after microsoft stole the interface). Sigh. I've said this before and i know i'll say it again... Microsoft can pry my open source OS from my cold dead hands.
Having worked at Gateway for two years I will tell you what I tell anyone I know that is interesting in purchasing a computer:
Stay the hell away from Gateway! Having been on the inside I can honestly tell you that I have no idea how the hell they stay in business. They destroyed their service department (they didn't want educated technicians, so they took away the 'service' part of it and made it a bunch of crappy tests on an assembly line look alike. Pass the tests and there must not be anything 'really' wrong with your computer). They litterally go out of their way to get the most clueless morons they can find on the phones with customers. Plus, they pretty much piss off the few good employees they have by telling them that whatever computer experience and/or education they have doesn't matter, they aren't worth more than just above minimum wage because they are going to be assigned to a 'push the fscking button' type of job anyway.
If you want a computer, stay away from Gateway. Unless you really enjoy dealing with clueless idiots all the time. Of course, you're reading slashdot, so that could be the case.
Bite my yammer.
When I bought my notebook it came with win98SE bundled. I promptly booted it up to make sure it worked then installed Linux-Mandrake, wiping out Windows entirely. I now have a OEM windows disk and Product ID code not in use. Why shouldn't I be able to buy a naked system and not have to pay for Windows again if I was to actually want Windows on the new system? People buying Naked systems are not the type to call up for software support. These are the type of people a small computer shop wants to sell to. No troubling tech support outside of hardware malfunctions.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
So now Microsoft has finally gotten in on the presumption-of-guilt game?
:)
It is funny how this works. Consumers are assumed to be guilty, whereas the Company is assumed to be "perfect"
The other day my wife and I walked to the store to pick up some groceries. To make it easier we brought a back pack with us. When we entered the store, the doorman told us that we had to leave our pack at the front door. They have bins that you can put it in. However, right on the bin it said they were not responsible for lost or stolen packs.
I refused to leave my backpack there... I told the doorman that I could not leave it there because they are not responsible if it is stolen. I told him if he has a problem with it he can search me on the way out.
He then let me enter the store with my pack on my back, and I had no problems leaving the store without being searched
Don't let them screw you around. Stick up for your rights.
Need a website host? Try out http://WebQualityHost.net
https://oempub.microsoft.com/scripts/oemapps/tools /feedback/feedback.asp
and post your disgust. I did.
Please take down the following page:
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/nakedPC.htm
It is fundamentally misleading and therefore immoral. Have you guys been awake at all during the last 4 years and especially during your anti-trust trial?
Don't you remember during the trial how you whined about Linux being such significant competition? Linux is free. FREE TO LOAD ON NAKED PCs!
Quit acting like obnoxious bullies and start behaving like decent Americans.
I've been a Microsoft Supporter and Customer for years but you're REALLY starting to piss me off.
Alan
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
Whoever is writing these things over at MS must be screwing with his superiors or something. This can't be serious. Forget the whole infringement debate, but now users shouldn't go to a store and buy Windows at top dollar? What ever happened to Linux, OS2, and heck DOS? Does MS think all computers should come with Win98 and anyone who wants to change that is going to "obviously" install an illegal copy of an OS? The marketing and legal people don't need help, they need to stop putting out these press releases to fuck with people's heads and get them thinking that maybe there isn't anyone in charge over in Redmond.
"Life's funny sometimes." "And sometimes it isn't." --Cat's Cradle
I remember them too. I just can't remember who they were, or how to get ahold of them.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Note that the signs are usually posted where you can see them when you first come in, so that in walking in there you are entering into something akin to a shrink-wrap EULA (without as much fine print).
Are there any cases that deal with this issue? I'm wondering how binding these signs are and whether their placement is well-regulated or not. What if I go to the store without my contacts in and I don't see the sign? There's probably a hundred reasons I could think of that could prevent me from reading such a sign. I would love to know how these things work. It does sound somewhat similar to a shrink-wrap EULA, but we aren't even sure how legal those are, at least in certain states or districts.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
The irony is amazing... after regurgitating for months(years?) to the media they are not a monopoly, they have the odacity to make the claim that customers buying naked PCs must by necessity install pirated versions Windows, implicitly making the claim that there are no other options.
What more damning evidence could their be as to the outrageous lies spewing out of Redmond?
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
Yes!! :-)
I have been waiting so long for som M$ slashing.
Thanks.
--------
Microsoft is putting this site up because they are no longer legally allowed to force OEM's to sell Win with there PC's, which was the practice before 9/99, when they were forbidden to dictate what an OEM could sell. So now all they are allowed to do is suggest that OEM's always include Windows whether the customer wants it or not.
look at the header on the page:
Naked PCs - Don't Expose Yourself
this speaks volumes about the message M$ wants to send to everybody:
1. don't try to figure out how technology works (i.e. exposing the PC); trust us to take you where you want to go today
2. stay away from those so-called free operating systems; soon you will rent your software from us and you will like it
3. "unauthorized" technology is dangerous--make sure your viruses Office 2000/VB compliant
4. disobey and you will soon look like a slashdot icon
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
...that we're not even talking about free software as an alternative for a second...
If I own a valid copy of windows9X - and my old machine is kaput. (Lightning strike took it out, let's say...)
I should have to buy another license of windows??? Did it get fried by the lightning strike too?
What if I just wanted to replace my old clone system - and I just want the box... I shouldn't have to pay for another license - that's insane.
The whole argument is garbage.
BlackNova Traders
I can't wait until they start bundling Windows with mice. Because, you know, someday, someone will use that mouse with a pirated copy of windows. And you can only use this copy of windows with this mouse.
Of course, the only next logical step would be to bundle Windows with money. Not MS money but real money. Because, you know, someone will use that money to buy a mouse for a naked PC where they will of course install a pirated copy of Windows. After all, money is the #1 source of computer piracy, right? :)
Free Online Woodworking Resources Directory
I think that was a funny comment in that message. From what I have seen lately many OEM's (Compaq is the most notable so far in this) do NOT include all of the install disks, only a CD-Rom with a backup of the harddrive as they set it up in the factory.
You can't customize you windows and such because you have no real Windows CD to install it's own system software.
On a seperate note, if I wanted to buy a "naked" system, and got that kind of responce, I would tell them I'd be glad to buy it with a pre-installed OS if they installed linux. If they can't/won't (which most shops can't because of lack of knowledge) then I would simply inform them I will not pay for an OS I am not going to use.
My last machine was purchased from a small local shop. I went in with my little list, and they looked over it. When he got to "No OS - and I won't buy here if there is a charge for the OS anyway" he looked at me and said "Linux user, huh. Want to use our T1 to burn an ISO?" and offered some nominal charge (talkin Cheapbytes cost, here). I was puzzled - does this happen often? The answer is yes, with the qualifier that its due to his close proximity to a college, and lots of people want Linux boxes to run small servers on, do CS homework, etc. He also showed me the huge pile of Windows CDs that he apparently can't move, legally, because of the way the licensing agreements work, when people buy "naked" machines.
But anyway, isn't it odd that they say a PC without an OS is like a house without a roof, but they charge for it? What I mean is, when I build a house, the roof is built into the cost (like the Windows "tax"). But they also sell roofs stand-alone at Best Buy, and make builders buy N roofs at a time, even if they aren't slated to build N houses. Doesn't make sense to me: the guy in the above bit doesn't want to deal with all this stuff. He wants to sell computers. That's all he cares about. Since you go to him to get things custom-built, he lets you put your own roof on, since its your house.
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
My suggestion to anyone with one of those crummy OEM copies of Win is to try the this technique when you go to reinstall Win from the recovery disk. I mean, how many different ways are there to screw the customer that don't require something really fancy? I'll bet dollars to donuts that other Win95/98 PC manufacturers use this technique (that a pre-existing, correctly named partition must be on the hard drive) to appease Sauron and his Nazguls.
Of course, one day we will have to eliminate Windows from Linux PCs altogether.
Unfortunately, that day isn't here yet. Its coming soon, though.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
OJ did not introduce reasonable doubt. His army of overpriced lawyers did.
Where's the problem?
The problem is that if OJ were a poor man, he'd be on death row right now.
The problem is that the same laws are not applied equally to rich and poor -- the "justice" system works for the rich but against the poor.
It's typical Microsoft FUD, with a twist. Now that they can't get away with threatening resellers with curtailed business if they don't bundle Windows, they'll simply imply that there might be some legal liability for the resellers based on the actions of the customers if they don't assure a valid license. Not that the reseller can be held responsible....
Well, not yet.
Their page doesn't talk (directly, that is) about Windows, so it's still OK. However, I think going one step further (like using this to pressure computer shops into selling Windows with every PC) would be claiming that MS has a monopole on operating systems. They should be very careful about that (I don't know why I'm saying that, I know they won't!)
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
Okay, that's one point; why pay for something that you're just going to throw out. Point taken, but consider everything except that. Make sure this post stays a valid discussion and not another flaming victim.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
A good friend of mine after reading this page wrote this truly funny translation of this FUD.
WHAT IS A NAKED PC?
Naked PCs are those sold without Microsoft operating systems preinstalled. Machines are useless if customers install Linux themselves. It's like selling a house with a good solid foundation, concrete walls, a roof, and no
windows. Sure, it's completely stable and disaster-proof, but isn't it much prettier with nice windows?
SELL YOUR CUSTOMER A SOLUTION, NOT A PROBLEM!
Your customers depend on you to make decisions for them. Trouble is, if you act on your customers' willingness to buy Naked PCs--knowing full well they are at risk of acquiring stable, free operating systems elsewhere--you expose them to dangerous new ideas like "public domain" and "open-source." Hardly the stuff of great business relationships, if you know what I mean (*wink, wink*,) particularly when they realize they can get stuff free that you might someday want to sell them. And if your customer manages to legally acquire and install operating systems elsewhere, it might cost them far less time and money than we bargained for when we set this insanely high price on our operating system. No matter how you look at them, Naked PCs are bad for
Microsoft. Which means they are also bad for you, if you get our corporate drift.
WHAT TO SAY. HOW TO COMPETE.
Highlight the fact that the PC will not work without the operating system. Mention that preinstalling the operating system on the new PC saves considerable time, expense and trouble. Keep using the phrase "THE operating system." Pretend there are no other operating systems than ones made by Microsoft. After all, your influence is valuable. You install our software day in, day out, so there is little question you're best equipped to shove it down the customers' throats.
Warn customers that acquiring the PC "naked" and subsequently finding their own software is never a good option. Don't mention the risks inherent in
using our software: technical inferiority, expensive upgrades, viruses made possible by abysmal security holes, and anti-trust laws. politely decline to expose Microsoft by letting them know about such troubles.
Point out the benefits of a proprietary, preinstalled operating system. Customers have the original CD so they can reload the software when it crashes mysteriously. They also have a manual for everyday troubleshooting (god knows they'll need to troubleshoot every day,) and a certificate of Authenticity that proves the software is expensive. They can frame it and
impress their friends. In short, protect your customer and our good name. Sell your PCs fully equipped with our operating systems preinstalled and maybe we won't cancel your distribution agreement. Otherwise, who knows what you're leaving your customers--and yourself--open to?
Acquire software from Authorized Microsoft OEM Product Distributors--your only assured source of legal Microsoft products.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Valid point if you don't understand copyright or the GPL, which many(most) people don't. I'm no GPL scholar either, but from what I do understand, the GPL does not restrict your usual first-sale or fair use rights at all. When you get a piece of GPL'd software, you have a choice. You can either accept the GPL license and have the right to distribute modified versions of the software, provided that you make the modified source code available as well, or you can reject the GPL license and simply use the software within the bounds of normal copyright law. That means you can't distribute copies at all. That's one of the major difference between the GPL and Microsoft's EULA. With the GPL, you can use the software whether you accept the license or not. With the MS EULA, they try to take away every right you have and then pile on every restriction they can think of.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
One link away is this page, detailing illegal ways OEMs may be pirating windows. An excerpt for your pleasure:
Hard Disk Loading
The second form of piracy affecting the system builder is generally referred to as "hard disk loading". Under this practice a system builder will illegally pre-load a copy of the software onto the computer prior to sale. In this case the system builder makes a deliberate decision to load illegal software onto the computers he sells, usually as an incentive for the end user to purchase from him. In most cases, he doesn't even bother supplying any media, license agreement, a manual or documentation. Hard disk loading is particularly prevalent in less developed markets where there is no end user expectation of such "extras", or indeed a full understanding of software being a separate concept to hardware."
Isn't Microsoft's primary objective to eliminate any understanding that software is a separate concept than hardware? Here they make it sound like preloading an OS is a bad thing, but if you take out the word "illegal" from the above quote, their statements are arguments against preloading Windows at all, pirated or not!
F....U....D!
Kevin Fox
Kevin Fox
Hurry up and get your lab stuff done. :)
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Ben Kosse
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Ben Kosse
Remember Ed Curry!
Here's how a typical day at my work can go: Get a computer from fedex. It's totally blank. Insert Win2k CD I got from a friend of a friend with a MSDN subscription. Install Win2k. Give computer to new employee.
Where's the part where it costs more in terms of time and money come in?
And I looked, and behold, the pokemon all spontaneously combusted.
i still find it hilarious that in this day and age, microsoft is still limited to 3-character extensions on files.
Perhaps they could add another paragraph of advice:
You need to inform your customers of the risks of installing operating systems that allow file extensions of more than 3 characters. They could be open to legal risks if they have four-letter extensions that might include such things as "mpeg", "divx", or other uncommon words like "f***" or "sh**" that might go against local obscenity laws. To expose your customers to this legal risk is irresponsible, and wouldn't they rather have Windows anyway?
-Doviende
"The value of a man resides in what he gives,
and not in what he is capable of receiving."
"The value of a man resides in what he gives,
and not in what he is capable of receiving."
--Albert Einstein
I therefore consider my nonlegal version of Win98 to be morally legit, since I have *two* Win95 licenses for only one PC.
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
All they are trying to do is weasle more money When upgrading a pc, at what point does your oem version of win95 become ileagle? New monitor? Installing a nic for @Home? New sound card? A new case? I feel that the aggreements that MS has are ileagle. Replace "windows/software" with "screw driver" and see how leagle it sounds.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
my company is a subsidiary of a corporation (reed-elsevier) that have a multi-million dollar contract w/ ms that includes licences to all of there products. since we cannot by pc's w/o windows from most major vendors, we have to pay twice for windows in many cases! this is how they treat there "Selest" customers think how much the little guy gets the shaft!
i have walked down train tracks, walked down train tracks, drunk at 3 a.m. it not magic, it's no great trick, w
I'm not an expert in license agreements, but is it not legal to move your copy of windows from one machine to another? Because in this day and age, it seems to me that many people need to upgrade or replace their hardware every couple of years while not necessarily having to replace thier O/S. I'm sure that there are still a lot of people running windoze 95 even though thier machines are newer that 5 years old.
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
Doesn't windows take care of providing the user with the above?
illenium.net - ultimate sk8 shop online
"Customers have the original CD so they can reload the software! " - hey atleast they acknowledge that windows is so screwed up that the customer will DEFINITELY have to reload the software.
hmm...perhaps that's the reasoning behind this statement?
heheheh, ever hear of FUD my friend? That's what MS does....
I work at Indiana University. As part of an agreement between IU and MS, I am entitled to one license of each version of Windows (and Office) for the price of $5 per CD. So, for example, our bookstore sells old (no longer useful to the university) PCs naked, and we are allowed (required) to install the OS ourselves. However, if I buy a computer from just about anybody, I can't tell them that I have a license derived from my employment. Sigh.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Humans are born naked, why can't computers be born naked, eh?
"If I were to ask you a hypothetical question, what would you like it to be about?"
You can't COPY it, of course, because of copyright law
Actually, you can copy it. You just can't distribute copies, and you can't have more than one copy installed.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Pretty funny link. Since it is on M$' website, of course they are going to promote Windows. If you were a drug addict and told your dealer that you wanted to go cold turkey, wouldn't the dealer give reasons not to go cold turkey?
This is right up there with Linux Myths, or How to Remove Linux and Install Windows 2000 or Windows NT on Your Computer.
I always make a point to reinstall Windows on machines. The last few pre-loaded Windows machines I've seen have had serious issues. Either they had .5MB of RAM free, or they iad huge software conflicts. Unfortunately, these days you're lucky if you get a real copy of Windows to reinstall. My VAIO came with a System Recovery disk, but even that isn't a real reinstall. After I select the option to just install Windows, it creates a user for me, it installs BatteryScope, it installs PowerPanel, etc. I just can't do a 100% clean real installation of Windows unless I own my own copy.
Beware, Nugget is watching... See?
You mean, there are operating systems out there other than windows, and they're free?
Honestly, though, I don't think this is an attempt by big, evil microsoft to crush free software though I'm sure they would if they could. I think that it just never occurred to whoever wrote the "Naked PCs" article that anyone would want anything other than windows.
I think it really just goes to show how out of touch people at M$ are. It is really funny though, and kind of sad, too..
If I went to a computer store and explained that I was going to install Linux, FreeBSD, or any other free OS, and did not want to pay for windows, I would hope that they would believe me, and respect that wish. If they didn't, they would certainly lose my business.
When books burn, people are next.
The doggone page suffers a serious omission! It doesn't tell me where to buy a naked PC! Anybody know of a list of naked-PC vendors anywere on the web?
WWJD for a Klondike Bar?
I bought a toshiba laptop 2-3 years back with win95 (it came standard with a CDROM drive so there is no excuse for the following) The stupid thing only came with like 30+ lables for windows 95 floppys and a program which would make the floppys Once and Only Once so you could have a system restore disk set.
So they gave me lables and expected me to go out buy 3-4 boxes of floppies and spend hours making them instead of pressing a 75 cent CD now did they save oney from microcrooks for this type of distro. Whatever the reason the person who made the decision deserves a swift kick in the you know whats imho. I just cannot see any justification for. I complained to support etc to no avail.
Because I basically liked the laptop price performance wise I upgraded a year and a half later to a P2 at double the Mhz's and lots more RAM and disk space. This one had the amazing first boot that forced you to choose once and forever if I wanted win 95 or 98 I wanted NT/2K (I know I am still an M$ l00z3r but hey its what I need for work) So this time they included Restore CD's but of course no option or upgrade path to the version of the windows I wanted to use and no way to let someone who is buying an OEM system have a legal copy of the OS. Crooks I tell you crooks.
(OFFTOPICRANT>
Anyhow then I bought a digicam from toshiba (DONT Works Excellent in the store bright flourescent light Works more poorly than other digicams under lower light a probable cheap firmware fix for them just adjust the shutter appeture light metering a bit) I cant find the driver CD and unlike any other company on the internet they will not give you free drivers you must buy a new copy of the CD
END ONCE AND FOR ALL MY DEALINGS WITH TOSHIBA CROOKS.
(/OFFTOPICRANT>
but I guess the moral here is both toshiba and M$ are pretty nasty companies when it comes to forcing you to buy software you should not.
What if Oshkosh B'Gosh said something similar to doctors?
WHAT IS A NAKED BABY?
Naked Babies are those delivered without clothing preinstalled. Babies are useless until mothers install clothing themselves. It's like selling a house without a roof. And, in the end, it leaves your patient just as exposed.
SELL YOUR CUSTOMER A SOLUTION, NOT A PROBLEM?
Your patients depend on you. Trouble is, if you act on your patients' willingness to take home Naked Babies-knowing full well they are at risk of acquiring stolen clothing elsewhere-you expose them to legal risks, viruses, and frustrating technical troubles. Hardly the stuff of great business relationships, particularly when they come back to you for help. And even if your patient manages to illegally acquire and install clothing elsewhere, it still costs them far more time and money than they bargained for. No matter how you look at them, Naked Babies are bad for your patients. Which means they are also bad for you.
WHAT TO SAY. HOW TO COMPETE.
Dom
Ok folks, there's an easy solution to the problem of a company not giving you the full OS on CD: buy from a company that does. I just bought a new PC, with, I'm ashamed to say, Windows 98. And I'll keep it, until all the games I want are available for linux.
However, I got a full version. And, had I chosen, I could have gotten a full version of ME, or of RedHat, or a store-burned RedHat CD & install (for about $30). All of these were the OEM versions, but not linked to the bios (at least, I havn't noticed... and I've already used it to fix another machine). And yes, they sell machines with no OS at all. They also give away a free copy of Corel WordPerfect Office 2000 with every M$ OS. (The store, by the way, is PCs For Everyone. So shop at a smaller store, and simply DON'T BUY from companies that don't sell things you want! It's that easy!
Otherwise, who knows what you're leaving your customers--and yourself--open to?
Is Microsoft really implying here that they could take action against a computer seller just because they sell machines without an operating system preinstalled? That's the way I read it. Sounds completely and utterly ridiculous to me, but then the DMCA sounds completely and utterly ridiculous as well, and it's real enough.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
"You install system software day in, day out, so there is little question you're best equipped to do it well."
No mention of the fact that the user is going to have to install it "day in, day out" becuase it doesn't shutdown properly, forcing said user to kill the power resulting in corrupted system files.
This is one of the many reasons why I've installed Windows(tm) in the winblows directory on my machine.
dp
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dp
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http://insipid.com
I own an original Windows CD .. i made it with my CD burner.
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you are not what you own
it's a sig, wtf?
Like the subject says this is not Windows specific. It only encourages that users do not pirate their OS. Of course Linux is free so there isn't a licensing issue. However, obviously this does not apply to Windows, BeOS or OS/2(hehe)... Anyway, nothing to freak out about. Just encouraging *licensed* software.
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
Now I've got a Microsoft site that backs that up. Thank you Redmond!
`ø,,ø`ø,,ø!
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
"It's like selling a house without a roof. And, in the end, it leaves your customer just as exposed." Um....no. It's more like without furniture, you need it, but it is not yet there and you could have got it with it.
I think that if I was at all a gready computer sails person, I would sugest they install the software and OD themselves, because most likely they'll have a problem with it and have to take it back to me to fix it and then I would get more money.
I know that's how it is where I live because I have had it done to me many times and now I just do everything myself.
I just bought a new computer ad they were fine with me installing my own OS. They never asked any questions.
I sugest you do the same. (If you know how that is) Otherwise you never know what they have put on it (unless you check), but you mite as well do it yourself because then you know what may be causing the peoblems if you have any.
I say, Naked PCs all the way.
-ChewyDawg
The problem is European is pronounced as if it began with a "Y" and which is correct: "A yellow jumper" or "An yellow jumper".
But there are so many illogical things in all dialects of English that it's really not worth getting upset about them. Aluminium does beat aluminum though.
Rich