Slashdot Mirror
Wine Runs Word 2000 And Excel 2000
LLurex writes: "There's a short comment and screenshot on Ian Schmidt's Wine Page about everyone's favourite Windoze Emulator finally running Excel2000 and Word2000 (imho the only really good applications Microsoft ever published)! No more lame excuses, time to switch OS ..." The screenshot of Excel looks pretty much, well, like a screenshot of Excel. With this, two of the most persistent reasons not to run Linux appear to be fading; of course, what's to stop Microsoft from releasing versions that won't work under Wine, ever? That could be a good reason to stick with GNUmeric and pico.
Actually, I'd be interested in Wine for the ability to run Windows software that isn't ported to mac without having to pay the windows tax.
DB
Wine
Is
Not (an)
Emulator
it won't work...
er... run on WINE, that is! :)
Oh my Jesus, I've been Slashdotted. :-)
Now then, lemme trot out my standard response to this claim, usually made by embittered former OS/2 users.
Microsoft does not control their own platform anymore. Their installed base is spread across 5+ Win32 implementations, including 95/95OSR2/98/98SE/NT351/NT4/2000. Office *has to* run on every single one of those, because many home and business customers don't upgrade their OS much if ever. This plays right into Wine's hands, since Office cannot use any new whizbang features on new MS OSes. They are being slowly strangled to death by their very own market share - it's a beautiful thing, and it goes along with ESR's arguments about DOJ being fun but unnecessary.
Hey, let's be fair here. Microsoft is good at screwing competitors, but pre-IBM Lotus was good at screwing itself. Back when 1-2-3 was a DOS and CP/M product, I was working for a Unix boxmaker that was trying to break into the desktop market. Naturally they wanted 1-2-3. Lotus said 1-2-3 needed a lot of low level system hacks to run efficiently -- hacks you can't do on a system with distinct process spaces, such as Unix. Of course, they changed their tune when GUIs started to replace text apps, but that was a little late in the day...
When I was a consultant, I had a client whose main app was DOS WordPerfect with a ton of file management and database plugins. Naturally he kept running agains the 640K barrier. And he had other apps like this that took forever to start up and shut down.
There used to be all kinds of complicated solutions to this problem, but lacking the I-Hate-Bill gene, I went for the one that was simplest and cheapest: Windows 95. The DOS box provided all the address space he needed, and then some, and he could run any number of then at once. There were backward compatibility issues (some of his apps assumed that his printer port was a physical device, not a link to a printing system), but none that didn't have a corresponding Windows tweak. Of course the tweak was often poorly documented....
__________
Not to mention an OS where you can log in remotely and its like your in front of the machine without a hideous lag of 'move mouse'...'wait for screen to catch up'...'click on icon'...'wait for screen to repaint new window'...'move mouse'...
Nothing toward PCAnywhere, et. all, but I like the idea of being able to SSH into a remote machine if I need to fix something.
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
make sure you try the newest version of star office (now called open office) ... They finally got rid of that godawful desktop, and now it runs closer to microsoft office...
________
although this does require the actual installation of a copy of windows.
If I'm right, Virtual PC doesn't have to run Windows, it can also run Linux or any other i86 compiled OS. Hence, you could run MacOSX, Virtual PC on that, Linux on that, Wine on that, and whalah! M$ Word on your OSX boxen.
So much for reducing overhead. INCOMING!!!
Blog,Twitter
Word 2000 still has nothing on LaTeX, IMO.
In your O and a bunch of others' as well! A huge advantage of the TeX family over the Office family is that arbitrary programs[*] can create valid TeX input, without actually having TeX. My reporting scripts can emit LaTeX on systems that don't have LaTeX, and then email the file to systems that do. Machines with half a meg of RAM can still originate beautiful text. Plus all the other obvious advantages.
[*] Okay, maybe not all arbitrary programs. Only those which can output text. :-)
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
I would have to agree with just about everything you've said. Everywhere people are praising Microsoft Word and hoping it will come to Linux.
As a Linux user (and programmer) who has to use NT at work, and occasionally MS Word for specifications, proposals, etc. - I hate having to use Word. There are tons of little features that you never use, and it sometimes haunts you.
Lots of operations depend on the position of the mouse over an area where even moving 1 pixel changes the mouse cursor and the operation. I am very often frustrated trying to get things done (obviously I'd be better with it if I used it everyday, but that's not the point)
Granted, many of these problems are Word's fault, but I think trying to support so many features in a WYSIWYG editor will yield exactly these results. LaTeX is looking better everyday.
Doesn't the Microsoft Office EULA specify that you may only license the software if you own a legitimate license for any of their Windows 9x - NT - 2000 software? Or is this just MSIE?
If so, it would have been nice for the DOJ to cover this .. then again, they may have..
And I thought WINE stood for "Wine Is Not an Emulator" but here all along it IS an emulator, timothy just said so! Besides that, he says it's my FAVORITE one too!
A computer without Microsoft is like ice cream without ketchup.
Doubtful. Most of the language addons for Office that I've worked with are installed through Windows itself (hooray for Microsoft Update...)
I like to do text editing in pico. Luckily, pico has been ported to DOS so that I can use it at work, too, under NT. For my job, all I'm concerned with creating the text content. I let the support staff deal with the hassles of Word to do the layout and printing.
For spreadsheets, IMO, Excel is the best. I took an Excel (97) spreadsheet home to try out under Gnumeric. It's a fairly sophisticated spreadsheet, but it doesn't have any macros or VB in it. Gnumeric choked on it and couldn't recognize some of the table lookup functions. So I'd be really happy to get Excel working at home.
Now that Office 2000 is out, I bet you can get copies of Office 97 for relatively cheap. We use both versions in the office and there's no practical difference other than some window dressings.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
Well, my job pays for it..... :)
And just as the Classic Failed Project is the one that tries to develop a word processor to compete with Word, the widely useful thing that few have really seriously tried to do is to construct a "multiplexing data access tool" like MS Access.
Access may suck bad as a data repository, and MySQL and PostgreSQL may have it well-beat in that arena. But you can use Access with those DBMSes, thus obviating that demerit. What they don't offer, and nothing else does, either, is a tool that provides pretty/flexible ways of:
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
science is a religion
I will admit that I've not looked at it much more closely than installing what was last month the latest version and then importing my personal checkbook register into it from a QIF file, but those things were not obvious.
Jeff
Try some weed, too.
cpeterso
Speaking of things Microsoft wants dead, why not use WordPerfect? Native versions exist for Windows and Linux, and its a great word processor (come on guys, pico?).
Why? Because my clients need a rock-soild, easy to use, fast, compliant, stable, free browser for our Internet/Intranet applications. That's IE 5.
Until then I will need to run Windows to test my development work. If Wine really runs IE5--then I'm done with dual boot/VMWare/etc. kludges.
Now hiring experienced client- & server-side developers
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
Hey now... Dont be trashing PICO.
Instead of looking at what features it doesnt have, look at what it doesnt DO
It doesnt try to underline every word when I write in german.
It doesnt try to fix my grammer for me when I dont want it fixed.
In general, it doesnt treat me like a child.
And most importantly- Not that it has ever crashed on me, but were it to crash, I have severe doubts about it bringing down my whole machine.
-isnt it strange to be anything at all.... -jeff mangum
-isnt it strange to be anything at all.... -jeff mangum
Nifty.
Now, unfortunatly I work in an all lotus-shop.. (notes 5.03, Smart Suite millenium, etc..)
Once Wine can run notes 5.03 without vomiting horridly.. (I've tried.. although feel free to prove me wrong..) I'll make Linux my primary desktop.
Oh yea, and ESM console... (axent's Enterprise security manager console.. Don't tell me to use the text client on the scan host, I do.. I just cron it, and kick off scheduled scans with it.. It's hell of allot easier to do onetime/suppresions/scans via the console.. )
http://thepoliticalgeek.com/blog/ Politics for Geeks.
hmm... well, I don't know what your experience has been, and I've never tried running notepad.exe (why would I, when I have vi?).
However, I've gotta say that Blade Runner by Westwood Studios runs exceptionally well.
wine blade.exe
yeah!
In post-9/11 America, the CIA interrogates YOU!
A) Let's see. Gnumeric & Pico vs. Excel and Word. Do you people actually produce documents any more complex than a OSS API doc? (Which could be printed on a napkin in a lot of cases!)
B) The whole "windoze" thing bothers me. No one has convinced me that Linux is better than NT4, and when I look at my 3D graphics benchmarks, I prove to myself that NT4 is in fact better. So it troubles me that article authors get away with using "windoze." Of course it is to be expected of unwashed masses, but those posting articles should be held to a higher level, don't you think? And I doubt it will fly too well if I start refering to it as "LinSux" from now on, would it?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Oh, come on. I think this is valid and thought-out well enough that it doesn't deserve "Flamebait". The flamebait tag moderates a message down because it assumes something has no function other than to get people to respond with flames. I'm pretty sure this doesn't fall into that category.
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he deems himself your master."
Well, you could do that, but if what you wanted was to run Office 2000 that'd be a pretty screwy way of going about it. You are correct however that VPC can run any x86 based OS. In fact they offer a version with Red Hat preinstalled.
________________
They're - They are
Their - Belonging to them
I don't want free as in beer. I just want free beer.
Why run Office 2k when you have a perfectly good application in Star Office? Use an Open-source program for an open-source operating system...
...contrary to your leadin...
--
Infuriate left and right
Yep--if you want fuzzy text, you need to use Mac OS X.
-rozzin.
I'll admit that I just got the latest CVS of Wine yesterday and gave Excel 2000 a shot, though.
Can WINE run Photoshop and Imageready? Those are what's really keeping me in Windows these days. Sorry, but I think they are far superior to gimp (except for the price tag... ouch).
Cire
I use emacs for coding, but pico is great for simple text file/HTML editing. I use it all the time when I'm connected via a terminal and not an X-session.
-Brian
"Faith strikes me as intellectual laziness." -Robert A. Heinlen
Has anyone else noticed how bad the fonts look in that screenshot? Yikes! Looks like Windows 2.0.
To my eyes, the jpeg block compression artifacts appear to be the real source of ugliness in that screenshot, not lack of antialiasing.
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
The EULA doesn't state that you may not use it on NON-MS systems, it merely says that you may not license it (despite the fact that you spent $500 to "license" it, and the media and docs) without "owning" a license to any one of their Windows operating systems.
Second, when used in its most loose context, this licensing practice might just be considered bundling the software in such a way that gives microsoft a competitive edge over their "competitors" (abuse of its monopoly)
Before there was WINE or anything of the like, this provision was not necessary because it was not possible to run Office on anything but windows -- it was implied that windows was required because it was windows software (Not to mention it was *also* expressed on the packaging). Now that there is WINE, an open source implementation of the Windows API, Microsoft must eliminate the possibility that they might lose money to a competing product (Windows/WINE).
Microsoft has created Office as a product separate of Windows. But when it is possible (as proven by WINE) to create an implementation of Windows, requiring the "original" is inappropriate.
Damm.. I used to take advantage of the fact that I couldn't run Office 2000 on Linux as an excuse not to write those boring documents. *grin*
I hate Office-like programs, all they write are "disposable-documents", they are unmanageable kludges..
Then again, the Wine team really rocks. Now I can just go and spread the Good News to all Windows users that kept FUD-ing me about Office Suites under Linux..(note that you can say "Office Suites" for Linux, but "Office Suite" for Windows, yet, Linux is the one apparently still in the middle ages)
c'mon guys! I thought you were better than this... WINE is NOT an emulator!
W.I.N.E actually stands for "Wine Is Not an Emulator". Look it up @ winehq.org. (yes, it's true... a virtual black hole of sorts. But hey, what's in a name, right?)
WINE is actually a win32 support layer. If you want an emulator, then get VMWARE.
--Cr@ckwhore
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
Junkbuster.
I want wine for OS X. I shall then have wine with my aqua blue cheese...
||| I still can't believe Parkay's not butter.
Jenni of Jennicam fame uses Pico. She seems like a pretty self-respecting geek.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
I hope I'm not the only one with this experience. I think I've read something similar to "Excel2000 and Word2000 (imho the only really good applications Microsoft ever published)" probably at least 20 times. I'd agree that Excel is solid and works well. Maybe I'm retarded, but every time I have to use Word (have to because it's the standard where I work) I end up frustrated. Click on the button to make a bullet list and the whole list outdents (is that a word, what is the term for that anyway?) copy text from one section to another and random portions of text change fonts. Try to add a single blank line and line spacing changes for the whole paragraph. Try to select a couple of lines and it auto-selects the whole section. Try to delete a line and it applies random formatting to text above and below the deleted text. It's like playing a twisted video game trying to get things to look right. Maybe it's an experiment in a non-deterministic word processor. I long for the days of WordPerfect where you told the app what you wanted and it complied instead of trying to guess what you really need and doing it for you. Oh for the days of Reveal Codes! Am I missing something obvious or is Word really this hopelessly impossible to use? I loathe having to do complicated documents in Word. I laid out a full book in WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS and I can't even get a simple table to display properly in Word!
Through all the complaints and requests here, I'd like to stop and recognize the hard-working individuals who made this successful. Whether you like Office 2k applications or not, whether you think is better, it's still impressive to see the behemoth apps from MS running under Linux. Congratulations to the Wine team.
"It doesnt try to underline every word when I write in german" Office 2000 has multi language support. That means if you include french or another language in the document, it recognizes that. If you write in french, it will spell check using the french dictionary. If you switch to English, it will change dictionaries automatically. It's wonderful. (here in Canada the default languages Office supports are french and english. I expect this varies from country to country, and if you happen to use another language frequently - you can buy the plugin) If you don't like the "for dummies" stuff - turn it off. Then, it won't fix your grammar... And most importantly - use NT instead of ME or 2000 or 9x, and any crashes (not that Word has crashed on me lately) won't impact your entire computer. Sheesh. It ain't the developpers' fault if you can't set up your computer properly. Then again - I suppose some people aren't computer literate enough to handle programs that are slightly more sophisticated than a basic text editor...
Take a look at the prototype of the new documentation page here.
Take a look at the items at the bottom of the Wine 1.0 todo list here.
Take a look at the plans for revamping the apps database here. BTW, we need help. Wanna quit complaining and give us a hand?
However, I do have to agree in one important point - many Wine users have a tendency to get an app up, and then that gets reported to Slashdot. But, the reality is, it doesn't work well, so everyone stampedes to try Wine, and gets disappointed. The key thing we're trying to get to with the new apps db is *honest* and verifiable app reports.
I just had to add this comment... joe is the best! I finally have a good reason to remember all those stupid Wordstar control codes...
</sarcasm> for the humor impaired
BRTB
gets to be like figuring the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.
Given that the head of a pin is a collection of zero-radius particles connected by virtual force-carrying particles, and that thus the possibility of zero-dimensional objects has been shown by modern science. And if something is massless, entirely noninteractive with other matter under normal circumstances, and has no dimensions, there is no reason to assume that an infinite number cannot be in any location.
As a result, the old debate can be resolved -- the main claims of those that insisted that only a finite number could dance on the head of a pin have been put into serious doubt, leaving clear the claim by their opponents that an infinite number of angels can dance on the head of a pin.
There's no "we" in team, only "me"
If that is the case, then why does Office overwrite .DLL files that were originally installed as part of the operating system?
I'll post one when I get home from work. Had I known I was gonna be Slashdotted I would've included one :)
I can't even get 99% reliability out of office2000 on native win98. ;)
At least if it crashes under wine it isn't going to take your desktop session with it.
---
Where can the word be found, where can the word resound? Not here, there is not enough silence.
"Where shall the word be found, where will the word resound? Not here, there is not enough silence." -T.S. Eliot
Actually it was the first rpm I downloaded and set up for my Linux box. That way I didn't have to run X to get some text editing done. For me, having a basic editor where all the (few) possible commands were right there to see was my biggest priority.
Is it just me, or is that stupid ad rotated way, way too frequently? I'm extremely sick of seeing that guy's wide open mouth screaming at me.
Exactly my point.
In case you're wondering I do have a licensed copy of windows to run on this machine, I just chose not to install it. However, I did not bother to install it to a fat partition and copy it from there; I used another windows machine. So technically I am probably violating the EULA, even though I have a licensed copy of those DLLs for the machine I installed them on.
IMO, this is one of the best arguments for Free software -- figuring out what you're supposedlly allowed to do with a piece of non-free software gets to be like figuring the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Media player works fine... has for at least a couple of months. I listen to Coast To Coast AM every night with it. :)
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
There is an excellent status report on Wine chronicled here
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Digital Philosopher. Looking for work.
Moderator - why was this dishonest or ignorant post rated up?
KOffice does import, but not export, MS Word and Excel files. Not perfectly, but it does a fair job and the filters are getting better every week. KOffice is already using code and ideas from the recent release of Star Office source code, even before Gnome Office, to improve its filters. KOffice now has a develper working full time on MS filters.
Does any Linux Office suite *export* MS Office file formats? The old Star Office (5.2) and Word Perfect probably do a better job of importing right now, but that will quickly change. I guess it will be easier to export to MS formats when MS starts using XML, like KOffice already does, for its file formats. MS will surely do that as part of its .NET strategy, and then its file formats will be more public unless it uses some kind of encryption on all MS Office files, but even the encryption can be deciphered much more easily than dealing with undisclosed binary formats.
Uhhh...actually I do, which is why I don't bother screwing around trying to run crappy MS apps on Linux when there are better Open Source programs available.
Got Rhinos?
It's not embittered, it's, ah, mmmm...never mind.
Their installed base is spread across 5+ Win32 implementations, including 95/95OSR2/98/98SE/NT351/NT4/2000. Office *has to* run on every single one of those, because many home and business customers don't upgrade their OS much if ever.
Updates to the system libraries are a standard event for many Microsoft products, not just Office. Put in one change that uses the system level (ring 0) in an unusual way, and you end up with Wine chasing after compatability for another year. It just has to be a non-obvious and flakey looking implementation of a 'standard' system call that could have been done on the application level (ring 3), but isn't and is for a specific program. Since they have the source, they can build specific versions of each program for each target WinXX version.
Since they're rumored(?) to be moving to 'subscription licencing', they could put it in the TCP/IP stack, and then we'd have quite a bit of work to duplicate.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
A lot of books are produced entirely with *NIX. ;)
>>>>>>>
I know, I here TEX is really cool. I was just being a jackass
All OSs have strengths for different environments. If, like me, all you ever need is ssh and a browser, then Debian GNU/Linux
is better than NT4. I wish I could run IE, but even without it I prefer Linux for responsiveness and lack of "surprises".
>>>>>>>>
Good for you, but I have to tell you that WinNT is a good deal more responsive than Linux, and I do think it has something along the lines of SSH. But hey, if you're happy, more power to ya!
For games it depends on the game. Benchmarks be damned, I'd rather run Quake on Unix (Linux or BSD).
>>>>>>>
Well, for games, stability isn't a big issue since the game will go down long before the OS will. I wouldn't have a problem if Linux was just a little slower (though given the piece of junk that is Windows, it shouldn't be!) but often the Windows version retains playable fps at a higher res.
For CAD it depends on the app. Some aren't even available for NT.
>>>>>>
For 3D editing, which is what I was talking about, NT cannot be beat. Linux's situation will improve when Maya comes out, (and also the the WildCat 4420 gets Linux drivers which it will soon), but NT still dominates from the tools point of view.
For video editing, depends on the app, NT is probably first choice, or for super high-end, maybe IRIX or something obscure.
>>>>>>>>>>>
If you're doing realtime video editing, check out BeOS. Though PersonalStudio won't do anything for ya if you need Premiere caliber videos, but it can often do more on less hardware than a lot of NT programs.
This debate isn't one which can be answered definitively, any more than you can answer a car debate definitively. I like VWs
for personality. Some Japenese cars get better milage. Some American cars get style or raw horsepower/dollar bonuses. You
get the picture.
>>>>>>>>>
For the midrange, Mitsubishi Ecclipses are undoutedly the most sexy. For the high end, nothing beats an XK8. That IS the truth.
"...I prove to myself that NT4 is in fact better"
Then you're right. NT4 is best for you, hands down. You must be very happy, you've found your "soul operating system".
>>>>>>
Not at all, I think NT is far from my "soul operating system." Linux is farther still, and BeOS, though I love it, is still not there yet. With a couple of tweeks, BeOS could get there (me being a media/graphics person) but its not there yet.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
What kind of performance can I expect?
I sometimes run very large
Also...
What kind of compatibility can I expect?
Since my coworkers unfortunately run M$ Office on Windoze, I can't run StarOffice since some things on Star Office are not 100% compatible with M$ Office (i.e. Macros)
Can I expect to be able to use things like VBscript in Excel?
Thanks !
They did it by reverse engineering. The WINE guys have said themselves that WINE may never be truly finished precisely because so much of the Win32 API is secret, and also because they must duplicate not on the API as specified (somewhere) but also the implementations in the API as implemented in the various incarnations of Windows.
I suspect that all anyone has done is test out the "Hello World" document or spreadsheet. Has anyone tried working with a several hundred page document? Has anyone tried doing mailmerges? Has anyone tried any number of the thousands of things people really do with these applications? Most importantly - would anyone trust giving a presentation to a large audience using Powerpoint under Wine? PS At SIGGRAPH 2000 one brave soul gave a presentation to about 2000 people using Powerpoint under Linux/VMWare.
--
-- SIGFPE
Wine isn't an emulator it's a porting tool but guess what?
It also allows Application binaries to run on a platform other than the one forwhich they were written and compiled. This despite PR to the contrary is emulation.
So Wine is an emulator despite the defensive expansion of it's recursive acronym.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
"of course, what's to stop Microsoft from releasing versions that won't work under Wine, ever?"
Or you could just use the ones that work. What new features could they add to a word processor that are truly necessary?
WINE is not feasible for these people as it stands right now, putting them (and most non-English speaking countries) several years behind.
I don't see any Word screenshots ... not that I have any reason to doubt the WINE developers, but it sure would be nice to be able to show the NT bigots in my acquaintance, just to rub salt in their wounds a little ...
Heck, check those scrollbars on that screenshot of Excel. I don't think anyone on the Linux side of things is going to be rubbing salt into any NT user's wounds any time now.
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
Okay, I admit I'm still using CBB instead of gnucash since it's unclear whether one is morally superiour to the other.... ;-)
I suppose I should just bite the bullet and write a cbb to gnucash account converter... would anyone else find this useful? (The reason qif export/import isn't useful for this is that the two programs have completely different ideas of what a "category" is. Ah, semantics.)
All it shows is excel running. There is no X desktop at all. I'd say this is a forgery of sometype. --toqer
and it ran fairly well for what I did - navigated it a little bit and zoomed in and out and switched things around a little.
At any rate, it didn't crash at nearly the catastrophic rate it had been doing in previous tries.
So lemme get this straight - I can have my Mac running BSD under OSX and then run Windows-WINE as an app? Love it. Now where's that DOS based PDP-8 emululator I had lying around here... Love it.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
That would be amusing to me. (at least on some level) since Corel is supporting Wine development, and Microsoft owns a large part of Corel. so... they'd be going after themselves.
________
Pico has improved my productivity at work. I'm no longer staring at all the pretty widgets in Word wondering what they do. Now I've just got a *text* screen in front of me, with a black background and white letters. It's very peaceful and calming.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
Yeah, great, Office 2000 works... but what about Microsoft Bob? My shell's shell needs a shell! BTW, Ian, AZ and GNO/ME made my //gs useful up until the day my 20mhz Zip kicked the bucket a few years ago. Thanks!
Yes but the Dos ain't done 'til Lotus won't run
a .html
story has some truth Although Steve Ballmer claimed it was out of context.
http://www.cmpnet.com/voices/archive/090298lang
Do macros work under WINE? VBA is a big part of the compatability hurdle.
Yeah, right.
"WTF happened to the passwd file?!!"
"I thought it would look better in 12-point Times..."
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
Because VMWare requires that you actually own a copy of the OS you are going to run on your virtual machine whereas Wine does not require you to have Windows.
What do you mean "why restrain yourself to the common denominator"? I use vi (actually, vim) because I'm way more efficient in it, it's as simple as that. Emacs with vi key bindings would probably work just as well, but why bother loading that huge beast when I probably won't need most of it's features anyway? True, for large projects where you have to deal with other people's crappy code, it's good to have more of an IDE-like environment where you can view class hierarchies and such. But for me, the most important thing is to have vi-style key bindings wherever possible. That way I gain maximum efficiency.
IMO, this is one of the best arguments for Free software -- figuring out what you're supposedlly allowed to do with a piece of non-free software gets to be like figuring the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.
Mmm-hmm. And figuring out what you can and can't do with GPL'ed software is like having to name each angel after you've counted it.
The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
Okay. Let's posit the following:
Keep in mind that this isn't Joe's fault, it's just that MS has done an exceptional job of making it look like there are no alternatives, therefore Joe Average knows MS and that's all.
Therefore, Wine is key to getting people to give Linux a shot in two ways:
I might also add another advantage not specifically related to Joe: A company's systems people can slip a few Linux boxes (configured with fvwm95, Wine and Office) on a few desks, and no one notices the difference until they realize the system hasn't crashed for no damn reason at all for a while :)
So now, Joe Average is willing to consider and possibly even uses Linux, although he may still be running Office on it just because he knows how to use it.
So far, so good. The first side of the sword slices at Redmond nicely.
Now for the other side of the sword.
Unless there is a consistent effort on development of native Linux applications, all that's going to be accomplished here is that MS will gain a foothold in the Linux world and can make our lives miserable.
I know, I know. Development's going on right now, even as we speak. But how many of us look the other way at the limitations of StarOffice or WordPerfect just because we get a warm fuzzy from the fact that it's all MS-free?
If Linux's acceptance comes to hinge on Microsoft software (an oxymoron if ever I heard one, but if the above holds true, not impossible at all), that gives MS an unacceptable wedge over the future path of Linux development -- after all, if we fail to address the needs of MS application users (as defined by the programmers at MS), they can take their apps back to a Windows box.
In my more paranoid moments, I think that this is the reason that Wine hasn't had an encounter with Microsoft's legal division - Wine does, not by design but by result - extend the potential embrace of Microsoft.
What to do, then? Wine is necessary in order to wean current MS users from their digital crack, but at the same time, opens up a whole new playground for MS to lurk in.
I'm not going to propose an answer here, because I don't know what it is. But it's not often that I'm both heartened and chilled by the same piece of news.
You're only as young as the last time you changed your mind -- Timothy Leary
VMWare doesn't allow hardware accelerated graphics. So, if you have a voodoo X and want to run a game like Baldur's Gate II....you cannot! I would love to use VMWare IF it had support for things like OpenGL and stuff.....my real reason for Windows is games. And WINE is making excellent progress in that department....games are currently just running slow. But, that can be fixed....at least they 'run'.
You're joking, right? MacOS STILL doesn't have antialiased fonts. They're finally getting them in OS/X, only six years after Windows (assuming it still comes out next year).
--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Interesting... however one of the things Wine says it will NEVER implement is vxd support. So any M$ product that requires access of a vxd, even trivially, could have pretty bad implications for Wine.
There's another dynamic at work here: 3rd party Windows applications. If MS gets too wacky with their system/API updates, it will break 3rd party apps, often in non-obvious ways. This has happened several times in the past with things like the MFC shared library - customer and 3rd party outcry has always forced MS to release an "update" that restores the original behavior.
Add in the fact that many large companies using Windows have at least one piece of custom in-house software. If that software's broken by any tomfoolery, MS again looks bad, and this time in front of a potentially huge corporate customer.
With the announcement in May about Corel hosting WineHQ, does anyone else find the small investment that Microsoft made in them earlier this month a little odd.
Could Microsoft's substantial investment have any influence on the direction of Wine? I leave the answer as an exercise for the reader...
I could run Connectix Virtual PC with Red Hat I suppose. But that would not preclude me from polluting one of my actual x86 machines with this foulness.
I do not have a signature
That, and its insistance on word-wrapping lines in contexts where it's not appropriate (line-oriented languages, anyone?) make it insuitable for hard-core work.
This is what pico -w is for (it turns off word wrapping - nice to have an alias for this)...
You definitely hit the nail on the head about crazy edits, but it's worse then just that. You can't do any search and replaces in Pico! I could understand no support for regular expressions in a search and replace, but no search and replace at all!?!? That's just madness.
Um, duh, MacOS isn't one of their own trademarked Windows[tm] versions.
There are many groups at Microsoft. The numbers of the departments vary, but are generally along the lines of "Systems," "Applications," and "Tools;" they move the language guys around between Languages, Apps, Tools, and Internet, depending on the prevailing wind.
Inside the groups are Business Units, or BU's. Each product is its own BU, where it makes its own strategic decisions about how and what to develop. Of course there's the Windows platform strategy, since it's had more than 50% of the OS market for the last ten years. Of course it's good business sense to capture the MacOS market or the Linux market, if they look like they'll get significant market share.
There are a lot of cynical borgesque statements floating around. Some are true, some are false. One commonly touted one, Windows ain't done 'til Lotus won't run is false ... in fact, Philippe Kahn of Borland (having already made several portable OS/2+Windows apps) even told the Windows-inexperienced Lotus flacks to stop whining and write some real code.
If a new version of Windows wouldn't run an app that had marketshare, then they'd lose that upgrade market. They had to go to great lengths to fix bugs while maintaining backward compatibility. Windows 3.1 had to create 'apphacks,' which were a list of 3.0 bugfixes that Windows would undo for certain best-selling applications, including Lotus 1-2-3W. If they fixed the bug, Lotus would crash even more than usual. About 1000 applications were analyzed.
[
Why bother? Office 2001 is already available for the Mac, and MS has already stated that they'll support OS X.
--
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
You need Diablo 2 pre installed and the NoCD crack from gamecopyworld (WINE is not able to emulate the copyprotection).
But then it will run Diablo 2 just fine. I have tested and played Single Player and TCP/IP Multiplayer Modus. I was not able to get battle.net to run.
Sorry, Peter, but I just can't bear the thought of anyone coding in PICO! PICO is good for it's original task -- a user-friendly editor to sit inside PINE. (PICO stands for PIne COmposer.)
My main complaint about PICO is that it tries to provide the friendliness a word processor, with none of the real power of a word processor. In doing so, it loses the power of a text editor as well. I feel like I've sat down in front of Microsoft Word, except someone took away all the tool bars and hid the mouse. That, and its insistance on word-wrapping lines in contexts where it's not appropriate (line-oriented languages, anyone?) make it insuitable for hard-core work.
I like VI since I can do rather crazy edits (like the other day when I was fixing someone else's code and rewrote all expressions of the form "restrict type_qualifier type variable_name[]" as " type_qualifier type *restrict variable_name ") with a single VI command. I've even written a maze-solver in VI. Do that in PICO.
Leave PICO where it belongs -- for jotting short messages to friends via email -- and use a real editor for real editing tasks.
This isn't flamebait, and I feel it's on-topic, as the Slashdot article above directly mentioned PICO. I must say it: Friends don't let friends use PICO!
--Joe--
Program Intellivision!
Program Intellivision!
don't forget WinME as a Win32 OS.
Sometimes you by Force overwhelmed are.
Hi, Joe!
:)
Because of my corruption into DOS at an early age, I'm used to EDIT-style editors, (edlin really sucked) and PICO is the only standard one on UNIX. For coding, I like RHIDE, but it isn't terribly stable on Linux.
For a slightly better PICO-style editor, I'll use nano. For scripting, I'll just use the shell, you freak!
later,
Peter
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Excel is truely the only decent app they've written.
Tell that to the guy who just called my helpdesk wondering why his Excel document is no longer recognized as such after trying to drop a Word document into it and crashing...
*knock*knock* Hello, Microsoft? Do the words "temp file" mean anything to you? No? Try "do not write the document to disk in a state that you cannot read back". What's that? You'll get it right next time? Oh goody! Can I pay now?
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
VI is the editor, and code pours forth!
b)Graphics bench marks, weeee! Look ma! It moves faster than I can type. No, it's for bussiness, serious Quake and Multimedia, I swear.
Call it LinSux if you want, as soon as I finish this post I'm getting back to the things I enjoy. No BSoD for me, an OS by any other name does what it does.
Those of us who dont have 4 digit uids have more compromises to make, I guess :-)
Compromises? Nah. It's just educating the clueless that there's more to life than just Microsoft Word.
I was recently looking for a new job, back in the June-August timeframe. Surprisingly, once I pointed out the fact that there were all these other readable versions of my resume online, a lot of people had no problems accepting text or html.
The really disturbing part is people would see my resume online, which has links to all these versions, and still would call me and ask for a Word copy.
I just made the conscious decision that I didn't want to deal with anyone who couldn't handle ASCII, and I ended up still dealing with everyone who called me and asked about a Word version.
(And the UID is a fluke... I found out about "that slashdot thing" and decided to register about a week later, so I could customize my content.)
--
It's pretty pathetic when karma can drop when you do nothing
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --H.L. Mencken
Imagine it - a desktop OS where Users can't delete Operating system files. Their programs can't crash the OS - much less corrupt the system files.
I don't have to imagine it. I live it all the time. I run Windows 2000, of course, and never use an account with Administrator privledges unless explicitly necessary. I NEVER connect to the 'net while logged on as Administrator except to connect to one single website- Windows Update.
W2K never, ever, crashes, either.
There is no excuse in the modern world for a program to have to manage "visuals" or "colormaps". And it is horrible that you have to write many pages of code in Xlib (and allocate many tens of thousands of structures to enumerate every font) to make code that will reliably locate and use the "Helvetica" font on any X machine.
I really propose the entire graphics system be scrapped (and emulated in Xlib). Replace it with a new gc that contains a window id, make it act as though it is True Color always (use server local allocation of colors on old hardware), and replace the entire font system with one where you find the font Helvetica by sending the damn string "Helvetica" to the server! (and of course make it antialias and make it draw UTF-8 encoded text!)
ever notice that for every Slashdot story about virtualizing, emulating or somehow running Windows, someone inevitably wonders out loud if it will also faithfully reproduce the BSOD?
;-)
Inevitably, it also gets moderated up as at least (+3, Funny). Not that it isn't...
-----
"People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them"
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
It mentions that Office 2000 can be run under WINE, but it only specifically mentions Word 2000 and Excel 2000. What about Outlook, Power Point, and Access, etc? Do those work as well?
I think the argument about how StarOffice still doesn't handle all nuances of Word & Excel... yet!
But at the same time I'm waiting for Quicktime, Real Player, DVD software and the like to mature on FreeBSD (and I don't just mean running Linux binaries on Linux, I mean FreeBSD binaries) before I drop the bloatware that is Windoze. And I think there will always be some instances where you need M$ Windows for something... whether college courses, incompatibilities in document handling, lack of features, etc.
That's my 1.5 cents on the subject.I think the KDE folks have lost whatever high moral ground they had over the Gnome folks for their terrible Gnome1.0 release. KDE2.0 comes with so many small annoyance bugs and a few outright showstoppers that it makes it almost unuseable.
Don't get me wrong, I love the KDE developers and their product. In the spirit of constructive criticism, I would like to list the following problems that I have found with KDE 2.0.
1) Kmail. Sometimes gets mail from the server and drops it into the ether. Thankfully I tested it before switching my mailbox over. Sorting does not work properly.
2) The Kpanel is terribly buggy. I cannot add any applications to the panel. The icon appears on the panel, but when I click on it, I simply get an error message.
3) Konqueror crashes reliably under many circumstances. Clicking on a postscript file displays it correctly once. If I click "back" and click on the file again, crash! Also, the browser has a problem with accepting URLs. After a while, it refuses to take new URLs and keeps going back to the old page. For some reason, Mozilla M18 has the exact same bug!
4) I hate to say this, but Koffice is unuseably buggy. Sometimes, it crashes while doing common operations. (Creating a table of contents). It corrupts its own file so that when you try to read it, it crashes. The math fonts look terrible when printed.
5) Knode has not crashed on me so far, but there are so many small things that do not work right that I gave up on it.
KDE developers, here's hoping that 2.01 will get here quickly!
Magnus.Doesn't the Microsoft Office EULA specify that you may only license the software if you own a legitimate license for any of their Windows 9x - NT - 2000 software?
Sounds like the sort of thing they'd include in their license, yeah, but so what? Why on Earth would you own a copy of Office (for Windows) if you didn't already have a Windows system to run it on? Hopefully they didn't word the license to prevent you from running it on non-Windows systems, because it probably never occurred to them that anybody would. That will change.
No, no, no. It ain't ME babe,
It ain't ME you're looking for.
-- Alastair
Unless, of course, one doesn't mind wasting hundreds on stupid KVM devices just to do some work on more than one machine at a time.
Which are additionally useless and stupid when you're halfway around the world, and seperated from your machine by several thousand kilometres.
Just like *nix in general, most of the people who attack X don't understand it. Don't worry about them, just let them live their sad unproductive lives and continue going about your productive one. Simply saying "X is rubbish" with no arguments just illustrates that the person who posted it is an idiot, along with the dolt who modded it up.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Ok, that was my reason for not having Linux on The_Box, the laptop that I carry everywhere...
:)
Now all I have to do is find a way to get Linux on it, and see how the darn thing works.
Yay!
huh?
If you are a user, you don't have to think on anything, just use the software and if you want to give a copy to your neighbor, do it.
If you are a developer and your interest is in developing more Free Software and protect it from being turned into proprietary software, you don't have to think anything, just use it.
You have to read and think about it if you are a developer and you want to release your software under a proprietary license or under another license, maybe because you don't care about maintaining the Freedom of your software, or maybe because you don't like the GPL.
So, I think that your comment is just to bash the GPL, without offering anything else.
Support The GNU Project!! http://www.gnu.org
Actually, MacOS got anti-aliased text in version 8.5 which came out over 2 years ago. Early October 1998, IIRC.
-----
"People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them"
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
of course, what's to stop Microsoft from releasing versions that won't work under Wine,
ever?
What, indeed?
I mean, Microsoft would never sink so low as to add code to their software to prevent it from running someplace they didn't want it, would they? Such as, oh, Windows x.yy terminating with an error message when run under DR-DOS?
Or, turning things around a bit, "Windows isn't done until Lotus won't run."
No, it could never ever happen.
--
It's pretty pathetic when karma can drop when you do nothing
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --H.L. Mencken
Visio is way kool for designing software
Who wants to edit text and/or spreadshits? I want to run "Need For Speed - Porsche Unleashed" under Linux. Have to wait until Wine compates with DirectX 7... :(
damn, you use pico to edit config files? /etc/passwd file. :)
I hope you use pico -w
The last thing you want is for pico to word-wrap your
How about SoundForge & AcidPro & FruityLoops?
=steve
--- rapper/producer/bachelorette party stripper
Pico has got to be one of the worst editors why not vi or emacs, even ed for crying out loud!
Seriously though, really good to see. The more main stream apps able to run on Linux the better!
Trevor.
"Do you people actually..."
A lot of books are produced entirely with *NIX.
All OSs have strengths for different environments. If, like me, all you ever need is ssh and a browser, then Debian GNU/Linux is better than NT4. I wish I could run IE, but even without it I prefer Linux for responsiveness and lack of "surprises".
If, like a lot of people I know, you run proprietary applications that don't exist for Unix, then NT is the clear choice. No argument is possible.
For games it depends on the game. Benchmarks be damned, I'd rather run Quake on Unix (Linux or BSD).
For CAD it depends on the app. Some aren't even available for NT.
For video editing, depends on the app, NT is probably first choice, or for super high-end, maybe IRIX or something obscure.
For medical data manipulation, it depends entirely on the application, but I suspect Unix comes out a little ahead for stability.
This debate isn't one which can be answered definitively, any more than you can answer a car debate definitively. I like VWs for personality. Some Japenese cars get better milage. Some American cars get style or raw horsepower/dollar bonuses. You get the picture.
"...I prove to myself that NT4 is in fact better"
Then you're right. NT4 is best for you, hands down. You must be very happy, you've found your "soul operating system".
Or for that matter, does WINE run any other number of sought- after Windows programs?
Many answers can be found through this search engine at winehq. I highly recommend taking a gander at these...
Wine is not an emulator. The acronym is true because it DOES NOT EMULATE. If it did, you could run the binaries on computers that are not x86. Wine is a set of routines that allows you to load windows executables into memory, which has nothing to do with emulation. In addition to this, it points windows environment features to systematic equivalents on the host machine, which is still not emulation.
The whole concept of using it as a porting framework came a while after wine came out. The idea being that if you can do it in real time, you can just use libraries that do it head off, which is a pretty simple (conceptually) thing to do too.
Eh...
I agree that getting Linux users on apps like StarOffice is important, but Windows producing a version of MS Office that doesn't run in WINe would likely get them into more anti-trust problems. Besides, MS products rarely go through many changes and the new versions of Office [including fileformats] are still compatible with the old. Therefore, I believe that this is an incredible advancement in Linux history.
Of course, people ought to upgrade to secure shell or crt or something, better yet MS by the year 1998 should have shipped an OS with working terminal emulation.
Pico is good when you are somewhere with nothing but a win32 box and lab restrictions (aka my current location)
for running windows, is for Half-Life Team Fortress Classic, i wish i wish i wish that it would be ported to linux, hopefully Team Fortress 2 will be.
tourettes
That's completely and totally not true -- I first read the term "Windoze" on Amiga-dominated BBS systems in the early 90s, and they were refering to the speed, particularly the graphics speed. (This was before there was any concept of "security bugs" for a desktop operating system.)
When I hear the word 'innovation', I reach for my pistol.
WinE IS an emulator. It doesn't emulate machine instructions, true, since they are Intel instructions, anyway, but its library certainly does emulate the results of windoze API calls.
I've actually found Access to be pretty much crap. Don't get me wrong, Access has got its unique uses for throwing together a trivial database in 5 minutes and what not, but for much beyond that it's pretty much horrendous. I've found the form building to be especially horrible [and support for 3rd party databases basically non-existent]. Much the same for reporting. It's fine if all you need to do is print up a simple select statement, but when you start adding any real complexity you're basically SOL.
Though I know most users don't have access to the tools, I can honestly tell you that I can develop just about anything in Delphi and a decent SQL backend faster than I can with Access. I don't really see a large market for Access in and of itself, the way it is now. In my opinion, its limited success is due mostly to the fact that it comes _bundled_ with many systems; the manager, or whomever, doesn't need to run out and buy overpriced software for an application that'll only get a couple hours of use.
That being said, I do think Linux needs an application that _actually_ does the above well. Kylix (Delphi) will certainly be a huge boon for professionals when and if it comes out. Hell, even such an application targeted more at _end users_ for Windows would be nice.....
oh well, g'night
> do with GPL'ed software is like having to name
> each angel after you've counted it.
The GPL version 2 has been around for over a decade. It's only one license. You only have to figure it out once (and there's plenty of pages that walk you through it).
Microsoft changes their licenses on a monthly basis. Often retroactively. :)
Rob
"Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto"
(I am a man: nothing human is alien to me)
My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
This is excellent, being that so many people rely on Microsoft Office applications, and cant use anything else. Being that these applications well probably never be ported to Linux (unless Microsoft gets broken up, possibly) its great that now they can be run under Wine. However I seriously question the stability, my experience with Wine has always been never do anything that can really hurt me if the application crashes. Still, this is wonderful progress.
Linux: Because a PC is a terrible thing to waste.
James Brents
Verily, the lack of video game support is one of the main reasons that the world has not yet converted entirely to Linux.
one of, perhaps. THE main reason is all Unix GUIs suck arse compared to Win/Mac. CDE is about the best I've seen, but even it is rather lifeless.
Shows how important you are! I wonder why it never happened to me. Do you think if I had a website I would have a better chance to be /.ed?
vi + latex and gnumeric.
john
-- john
We had some win2k boxen at work that had problems, maybe they fixed it. We had imaging problems at first too, perhaps they are related. I'm just telling you my experience.
Eh...
Cheaper. Has bubbles. Put it in a funny bottle, add sweetener and purple food coloring, and tell them it's an exotic soft drink imported from Moldavia, or Belize, or Nepal, or whatever.
There are plenty of office apps available for
linux right now that are either commercial or
free, but they are all native to the platform.
The reason to choose something that natively
runs on Linux is to support development efforts
for Linux software. Don't support companies
by purchasing software that is not available on
your platform of choice.
You could take it to the next level by supporting
only free software when available as well!
~
Twivel
Ever try to run a DOS executable under windows 2K? It isn't pretty. With performance that crappy, I am pretty sure that it will eventually be nixed out.
Eh...
However, KOffice was just released yesterday, and while it may not entirely meet up to the feature set of MS Office, it may be "Good Enough".
Well, since a large part of the WINE effort consists is finding out just what those undocumented API's are, I'm not sure what you need explained. If the Office apps used only documented API calls, they would have been running long ago.
Does anyone that runs these large apps under wine have any comments on the stability of them? It's been my experience that while many apps run .. they are not necessarily going to function "as expected" and will frequently crash (matter of fact, putty managed to crash my entire X session).
... across the usa ... everybody be surfin'...
bemis
if everybody had an ocean
I don't see any Word screenshots ... not that I have any reason to doubt the WINE developers, but it sure would be nice to be able to show the NT bigots in my acquaintance, just to rub salt in their wounds a little ...
...
Not that I enjoy that sort of thing. Oh, what the heck, yes I do.
So, anyone got screenshots? Might be nice to get a big one with KDE or some other Linux-specific background props around it too
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
"Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto"
(I am a man: nothing human is alien to me)
My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
Didn't Russia turn in to a 1984? They killed more of their own people than the Nazis did. What ARE you talking about?
This is simply a difference in how one defines "platform".
The fact is that Linux was not contemplated as a base for running these applications when they were written. True. Wine doesn't emulate the X86 hardware. It dose however Emulate the Windows software. This is emulation just as Windows NT uses Emulation to run Dos and 16 bit Windows applications.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
"MacOS STILL doesn't have antialiased fonts."
This is false. Open the 'Appearance' control panel (MacOS 8.0 and later), click on the 'Fonts' tab. There's a pop-up that lets you set the minimum font size threshold for anti-aliased screen fonts. Anything that size or larger that appears on screen is anti-aliased.
(Of course printed fonts have been anti-aliased on the mac since the mid '80s.)
That's plausable. It's not like it is a great leap from ows to oze.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Besides VMware (which works very well), there is also an emulator called Interix, which MS is actively promoting so owners of shiny new windoze boxes can still run thier "legacy" UNIX apps. Sounds like an answer to a non-existant problem to me.
You cannot bypass Microsoft Revenue(tm) with VMWare.
Today's vices may be tomorrow's virtues.
Will WINE run Counterstirke (Half life plus the mod)? Just curious to know if anyone here has it going reliably and quickly. I refuse to dual boot, but I'm thinking of buying another machine pretty much just to play that dumb game :-)
Lots of microsoft DLLs are available for download from their web site as updates and patches (did anyone say DLL hell?), and I think most of the ole dlls (oleaut32.dll, olepro.dll etc) are redistributable if you have any of the microsoft developer tools. I wouldn't be surprised if office 2000 didn't come with a lot of the latest versions of these anyway. As a lot of other posters have mentioned M$ has to support a wider base of operating systems now, but really the windows version you install is pretty irrelevant once you start installing big packages (did somebody say bloatware) like visual studio, office 2K, IE5.x etc. Packages like this upgrade so many "system" dlls you're really looking at a whole new beast once a few of those have been installed.
I think Eudora 4.x do work under Wine. I could pass you a screenshot of it working using my RH 6.2 system, email me.
even joe is better than that crap.
Jeff
MS products run on all those versions of Windows, but that doesn't mean that they can't detect what version they're on. There are all kinds of "if WIN95...else if WIN98...chunks of code.
If they could discover a subtle way to detect most (not even all) of the time when they are on Wine, they wouldn't even need to create an "if WINE" branch. They would probably be able to find ways of getting it to go down the wrong Windows branch on occasion, instead of going down the branch of whichever Windows WINE emulates. That would result in strange, irreproducible crashers that would create FUD around Wine.
This would be a lot more devastating than just preventing it from working at all. It would cast serious doubts on Wine's reliability without making MS look guilty of anything. Even looking at the source code, you wouldn't see any "if WINE" case statements, so it would be hard to pin anything on MS.
I think WINE should go forward as a way to run Win32 apps from vendors other than MS. Other ISVs would love to have the additional revenue stream.
At the same time, I think there have to be some serious open source competitors to the MS-Office apps. Those are important enough that they need to run well natively, and not be hampered by the tradeoffs of an emulator. At the same time, we don't want MS to have another revenue stream from the Linux market.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
Try doing some serious layout work in Word 2000 and Word 97 [which allegedly use the same file format] and watch as things jump all over the place. or better yet, try saving into Word 6 format from Word 97 and watch as all your graphica are scrolled 1/3 to the right, and have r and g on one side, and b on the other. There are Linux suites now which are nearly as compatible with Word as Word is. And that's the best you can ask for. WPO2K does a shitty job [I've trested all five], StarOffice 5.2 does a good one [they're rewritten the import filters from 5.1]. But I do agree with you about the choice. Who the hell says I have to use open source software with an Open Source OS?
According to http://www.zdnet.com /zd nn/stories/news/0,4586,2644039,00.html, the next release of Office (Office 10) will only work on Win98 or later.
It appears to me that this is yet another way of trying to make people upgrade. At work, we still use win95 (with a few NT, Win2K, & Linux desktops) as the standard desktop. I can't see management forking over the cash required to upgrade all the PCs just to run Office 10. IMHO, if MS does this, it would be a perfect opportunity for Sun & StarOffice to come in and pick up a lot of ex-Office customers and very well cause Office and OS sales to slow down even further.the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
But where's the OS X port?
Im not a user that does anything with excel or word. Well, i use excel to store my music cd catalogue but that's just because that was the only software available at the time. So, cant say if word &/ excel is good.
But surely microsoft has released good software too. I've been a windows user from day when 3.0 was released. I did my first linux tryouts with 0.99 kernel base, i even remember compiling lilo to boot the frigin machine and from that day, what i have been really missing is good and clean email client. One thing is sure: There is not comparision (at the moment, lets see how Evolution evolves =) ) to Outlook Express or plain vanilla Outlook in *nix world. Plainly, they all suck, big time. Either they look really awfull (tcl/tk/console & KDE! based) and work or they look nice and doesnt work (gnome). I really really really hope that Evolution will fill the gap. Honest! =)
--
yush
what's to stop Microsoft from releasing versions that won't work under Wine, ever?
I prefer the converse. Now that Word and Excel 2K run using Wine, why not exercise that option to have Corel port software to Linux. Admittedly, it would be funny to see Corel make a product that would compete against it's own (WordPerfect), but it would be nice to see a native Word for Linux.
--
Then Linux users have no right to call it Windoze! The Amiga users can do it, the Amiga can whip anything for graphics speed (in terms of equivilant hardware of course.) But Win32 GDI beats X, and DirectX, D3D, and Windows NV OpenGL whips the hell out of SDL and Mesa, and Linux NV OpenGL.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I've not used Delphi; between it being somewhat pricey, non-ubiquitous, and such, it hasn't been an option. The company I work for got worried a couple years ago over the financial condition of Borland, and basically "nixed" the use of any of Borland's tools for new work. (There used to be quite a lot of Paradox systems.)
If Delphi can't become ubiquitous, it's not too likely to become of great importance, whether renamed to Kylix or not :-).
I keep debating whether or not I should get a copy of Corel Office Deluxe so I can try out Paradox for Linux; it ought to be an option as well.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
I thought there was a version of M$ office for macOS systems also. Obviously you don't need a license for Windows if you are running it on a mac.
As with most Microsoft software packages, the version for Macintosh systems is an almost completely separate (and much cleaner) codebase. Yes, IE5 for Mac is about as good as Mozilla. Yes, Office2K for Mac eats Office2K for Windows for lunch. Yes, Microsoft will lose market share because the licenses say "you may not run this on a free OS."
Will I retire or break 10K?
Actually, I think it *was* resolved back when it was a serious theological question--though I forget the answer.
hawk
Not to mention an OS where you can log in remotely and its like your in front of the machine without a hideous lag of 'move mouse'...'wait for screen to catch up'...'click on icon'...'wait for screen to repaint new window'...'move mouse'...
Remote graphical login is now in the hands of lowly Windows 9x users with Back Orifice 2000, released by CDC under GNU GPL. If Back Orifice 2000 is a digital crime tool, then so is PCAnywhere.
Will I retire or break 10K?
What do you mean "responsive"? If you want true "real time" response, NT sucks. It's designed around a "human time" response; getting it to respond under 100 milliseconds without a dual CPU is as close to impossible as you can get.
For the midrange, Mitsubishi Ecclipses are undoutedly the most sexy. For the high end, nothing beats an XK8. That IS the truth.
Liar. For the midrange, anything will do, the best is probably a Toyota Corolla. For the high end, the absolute best is a 4WD Porsche Turbo. THAT is the truth.
I think NT is far from my "soul operating system." Linux is farther still, and BeOS, though I love it, is still not there yet.
I do a lot of server work. This means going from one machine to the other, all the time. I can't do this with an eNTirely shitty computer that depends on a built-in GUI. Native Telnet is a MUST for servers, unles you can walk faster than bits do from one console to the other. Or else, you must have a fat stock option with the Tivoli Co.
THE main reason is all Unix GUIs suck arse compared to Win/Mac
This is why UNIX systems and similar systems come with development tools: so you can write your own GUI if need be. Have you tried GNOME or KDE lately?
Will I retire or break 10K?
I know somebody probably already said this somewhere in this huge long thread that I (bad boy!) did not bother to read, but havingit run under wine does not make it any less an MS-Application.
I think wine is nice and all, but it is the wrong approach - instead of trying to run programs intended for one OS, people should focus on making better software for this OS.
Support abiword and gnumeric! Learn LaTeX and don't use any "word-processor" at all!
-- "Tradition is the illusion of permanence."
gnumeric still isn't ready for prime time. It's closer to complete, and it's nice that I can now resized cells and have this remembered, and use light borders (necessary on an 80 name gradesheet), but it segfaults just too often to use. I've *never* seen an excel this unstable (but then again, the last excel I used was 4.x :), and it even makes staroffice 5.2 look stable . . .
It's silly to say that somehow there's no reason to have Windows now that WINE runs Office. First off, how are you supposed to install Office without Windows? Secondly, WINE is a complete pain in the arse to set up and get running - average users, i.e., the kind that use office suites, are not going to do that. In fact, I'd much rather boot into Windows to use those applications than twiddle with WINE myself.
Admittedly, it's been a long time since I've tried WINE, but I doubt the process for installation and setup has varied drastically. WINE is a good project, and I think good things will come out of it eventually for end users, but not for another year or so, most likely.
-lx
Because my clients need a rock-soild[sic], easy to use, fast, compliant, stable, free browser for our Internet/Intranet applications. That's IE 5.
IE 5 is only "rock-solid, etc." if you run it on a Macintosh system. Mozilla is already somewhat more compliant than IE 5 for Windows and has nearly surpassed it in the stability department. Plus, it's both free and Free.
Will I retire or break 10K?
It all depends on the quality of the driver. If you have 100 engineers optimizing the hell out of a driver for Win98, and have 3 who port that work to Linux, what do you expect?
.to mshardware.com/graphic/00q3/000811/linux_geforce-1 8.html... here we have Linux beating Windows on a few tests. It's true that in most of the tests tomshardware.com did, Linux lost. But its not because Linux sucks. It's because the drivers aren't as good.
But hey check out this link http://www
My home workstation goes down for hardware upgrades, kernel upgrades, and power outages longer than twenty minutes... thats it. In other news, our well-maintained very-lightly-loaded w2k workgroup server ate shit this afternoon, requiring a hard boot. Sure this is anecdotal evidence, but reliability is something that can only be tested in practice.
> From an end-user's standpoint, X11 is simply marvellous. The network transparency alone is worth more than any crap coming out of Redmond.
FWIW, X saved my butt this week when a thunderbolt took out the video card on my machine that has my extranet connection. I just swiveled my chair toward Computer #2 and kept on working, using SSH connections to my primary machine. The only ways I can tell that I'm not "home" is that the monitor is smaller and my chair is turned a bit.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Excel2000 and Word2000 (imho the only really good applications Microsoft ever published)
Ok Ok, I'll give Excel credit...it still beats the spreadsheet in StarOffice, but WORD??? No Microsoft product manages to increase my stress level more than Word! Even BSODs in Win98 don't compare! Word is fucking evil! I constantly switch it to the Australian dictionary. After typing a paragraph it switches back to the US dictionary. So I switch it back. So it changes back again. Then there's the painful graphic positioning process...and the little effort where by if you drag a graphic past the bottom of the screen the scroll at first moves at a snails pace, then suddenly jumps all over the document. Then there's that FUCKED UP LITTLE PAPER CLIP that there appears to be no option to disable...you have to uninstall the software using the CD.
-"I still believe in revolution; I just don't capitalize it anymore." - srini!
Isn't that where OS/2 failed? If we want programs for Linux, the best thing to do is to petition companies to release them. Otherwise, companies just say, "Well, we'll only release a Windows product because Linux can run it anyway." Then you end up with more Windows products selling, and less Linux products. Remember, the Windows versions probably won't support all the features available on Linux.
--
The World is Yours.
ok that is just wrong...editor wars aside
NO ONE argues for pico....
Guttermouth is a really good band.
Sorry, I'm not buying it until there some proper documentation for running it. The WINE people might have great software, but they never document what steps to take to run a particular application. The only people that do are LinuxGames and the Lotus Notes guy.
So what's this guy running to get Word and Excel not to display the `re-install me' that I get? Is he using Windows DLLs or WINE DLLS? What's the contents of his wine.conf? What's the cointents of his WINE registry? Did he install under Windows or Linux?
FUCK THEM if they want to tell the world they can, but not document how. All that achieves is a lot of very angry users.
Here are two little adaptations I did to fit Slashdot's icon size: with and without MS's logo. Feel free to use them.
If the angles have spin, then there is no problem.
There's no "we" in team, only "me"
I agree Wine is a great project - but imho, it should only be viewed as a temporary solution. Take Corel PhotoPaint 9.0 for instance, sure, it works just fine, but my god, is it SLOW - so slow, it's unusable mostly, whereas the Gimp is super speedy. My point ? Well, if wine succeeds in running every single app available for win32, then software developers like Macromedia and Adobe will never have to properly port there apps to run under Linux. This is great if the speed win32 apps running under Wine was at least 80% of the speed of windows, but if not, there's not much point ! Anyway, what Linux is lacking, imho, is more graphics applications of the quality of Macromedia products. If Flash 5, Fireworks 3 and Dreamweaver were available for Linux, I'd never use win32 again. SO, in conclusion, unless Wine seriously speeds up, it's just a very temporary solution that won't stop people from ditching win32 - what would you rather do, run office2000 at 50% of the speed of windows in Linux, or simply boot win32 and run it there ? I'm with the latter.
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
> You run several thousand Windows applications? Impressive.
Lessee. Assume a mere 5 minutes per application on the average, and that "several" thousand is at least "three" thousand.He's a busy man.
Also, assume $50 per application on average.He's a rich man. Or rather, he was a rich man.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Uggggglllllly! Gnumeric's Ugly Sister. Where's the themes on that then?
Um, duh, did the context of the story ("Wine runs Word 2000 and Excel 2000") escape you, or has someone actually run Mac OS versions of MS-Office apps under non-MS Windows environment such as Wine?
MS used the restrictive license for their applications (one de facto monopoly) to protect their operating system monopoly on PC's.
Btw, _Mac_OS_ isn't one of Micros~1's own trademarked Windows[tm] versions, you got that right.
Talking about the Mac OS and MS-Office, what's Appleworks' (the only "suitish" alternative there) marketshare like? Is MS-Office for Mac not the result of Microsoft's investment in then-dying Apple back in '98 (contractual 5-year agreement along with cash infusion similar to those in Borland and Corel later on to prop up the appearance of competition)? Can you come up with any better examples of MS action _not_ designed to protect their monopoly control?
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
Another interesting tid-bit in the latest changes report is support for Red Hat 7's GCC "v2.96." It seems that previously, RH7's compiler taken from the developers CVS had some problems with correctly creating WINE binary.
This is sick and wrong. Very much so. Why not just post links to goatse.cx and call that an article? I feel dirty dual booting my Mac, I can't imagine how I'd feel actually running MS software inside a Linux GUI.
I do not have a signature
Have you tried forms in Oracle? A friend of mine recommends that. Both he and I has sweared and sweated over MS Access in school and job-situations.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
When will it run Back Orifice?
Phear my l33t homepage.
If they'd just port it to the win32 platform! Sure wine is convienant for anyone who runs linux/others, but what about Win32 users? I want to be able to run Ms Office in windows as well as linux! Lets get some Win32 emulation for the windows platform first, shall we?
Your Momma's so fat she makes emacs look like nano!
Just what we need... Pretty soon hardcore geeks will get into VI vs. Word shouting matches.
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Username taken, please choose another one.
AAaaaarrrrrgggghhhhhhh. SSH!!! (OpenSSH at that!)
"I'll take the red pill. No! Blue! AAAaaaahhhhhhhhh"
- Monty Python meets the Matrix
---------///----------
All generalizations are false.
--
I like to watch.
Hmmm. Wern't all the visual FX for the Matrix done on Linux??
"I'll take the red pill. No! Blue! AAAaaaahhhhhhhhh"
- Monty Python meets the Matrix
Thanks, but I'd rather run them under Windows 2000, as well as several thousand other Windows applications. Use the right tool for the right job. The linux community is better off creating their own tools (i.e. KOffice) then trying to create a bogus windowing environment which will run notepad.exe 50% of the time
Verily, the lack of video game support is one of the main reasons that the world has not yet converted entirely to Linux.
:o)
Got Rhinos?
I don't think so.
The point was that Access:
It may do so fairly badly. That does not deny that it does so.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
True, but you can run ANY Intel-based OS and ANY software package for that OS (with the exception of games, as was stated) in VMWare. Wine is for one thing only.. Windows. Not that it's a bad thing at all. I'll be watching Wine very closely.
And for those who mentioned the price on VMWare, Windows OS etc, thanks loads for being reduntant to what I had already said. Much appreciated. Not!
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
Oh, hi be-fan.
Some things are slower, some things are faster, but everything seems to work. If it does not, you might be able to fix it with one of the nice free GNU compilers that every Linux distro comes with. I've yet to come across that one, everything has worked and I spend much more time using my computer and less time fixing it. You can never get anything done when the OS goes under. Of course, you know that.
Now quit trolling and get back to work.
Does this sudden "breakthrough" have anything to do with M$'s sudden interest in Corel?
I'm not so informed about the wine project, being currently chained to the redmond rock, but does anyone know about this?
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
Very interesting! The primary difference between Win98 and Win95 is that you can count on Internet Explorer being present in Win98, and you cannot count on it in Win95. I wonder if you will still be able to get Office 10 to run on Win95 if you install enough extra stuff, such as IE and perhaps DirectX. (The thought of an office suite depending on DirectX boggles the mind...)
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
heh.. the term windoze was originally coined to refer to the amount of time it takes for Microsoft to fix a security bug. Ie, like they are asleep. This is also the same with Slowaris. Often the term is used a derogetory because of a lack of stability. You see, to a lot of people an operating system can never be considered good if it crashes twice a day (although my winnt crashes twice a day, most people's do not, on the other hand, win9x crashes twice a day for most people) even if there are lots and lots of apps written for it.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Pico is under one of those UW restrictive licenses which doesn't allow distribution of modified binaries. :>
It is also slow, old, and a memory hog.
Nano is a GPL replacement, that retains compatability while adding new features like search&replace, regexp search, internationalization, mouse support...
Stop using that non-free crap now! And while you are at it, switch to Mutt at the same time
Has anyone else noticed how bad the fonts look in that screenshot? Yikes! Looks like Windows 2.0.
Still an area where X lags behinds windows, both the font renderer and the lack of anti-aliasing.
Alex Bischoff
---
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
It's been a year or so since I ugpraded, but I've been running Win32 Lotus Notes on it and it's pretty usable with the occaisional crash -- not enough that I'm checking the updates page on a regular basis, you see.
One problem I've found with getting programs to run under WINE is you have to raid a windows box's system directory to snitch the DLLs you need (e.g. the DLLs OLE subsystem). That's not exactly fair game.
I'd be very interested to know if they got Office to run under WINE with no MS intellectual property other than what might be copied to the hard disk by the Office 2K installer.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Oops. I was thinking of the rendering backend for titanic. And Lord of the Rings.
"I'll take the red pill. No! Blue! AAAaaaahhhhhhhhh"
- Monty Python meets the Matrix
If compared to wine (which is the correct approach IMO) vmware (which is the wrong approach IMO) is just dawn slow. Think about it:
"Wine is not an Emulator"
Konqueror 2.0, part of KDE 2.0, seems to be more stable than Netscape/Mozilla, IMHO. As well as all the (useful) features of Navigator/IE, it has per-site configuration of cookies, Java and JavaScript.
Not at all. IIRC, they didn't even use *nix for the rendering. They used NT machines as their workstations, creating the geometry during the day, and left them to render overnight (with a few extra render-only machines).
Besides Blender, there aren't really any decent visual effects or 3d modelling apps for Linux. I haven't heard of anyone using Blender for big stuff like The Matrix either.
1) MacOS X
2) Classic Environment
3) VirtualPC for MacOS 9
4) Windows NT 4.0
5) LinuxOne Lite (name? You know what I'm talking about.)
6) WINE
7) Word 2000
Or you can wait for the official port, which should be out soon. At least in theory.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
I love the Wine project, and this is great news, but it really isn't there yet. But don't take my word for it, try out some apps, and see what works and what doesn't!
On the plus side, Photoshop 3.0 works almost flawlessly on my machine, and I've gotten an already installed version of Internet Explorer 4.0 to work once. Also, audio player applications (not media player!) seem to work fairly well.
On the minus side, Explorer doesn't work, and Internet Explorer's network installer won't install. A few programs that require or use networking in their install don't work, (web browsers tend to work) and a *lot* of apps (old and new) are pretty broken.
Incidentally, I'm all for using the "WABI approach" in developing wine: if it works for the most popular apps, it'll probably work for a lot of others. So let's see if we can get Explorer, Internet Explorer, and Media Player working, and get the core Microsoft stuff covered! After that we can start worrying about optimization...
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Well I still don't see the draw of MS Office when Free Equivalents abound... StarOffice 5.2 is my favorite and I've been using it for quite some time now. It reads and writes MS Office format seamlessly... The only arguemnts I've heard are filesize and layout... But those are adressed perfectly by ThinkFree Office at http://www.thinkfree.com/ It is ad supported but free. You have the MS layout and read and write MS formats. What arguement for MS Office are left?
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
I haven't bought or used Micros~1's, eh, products for over half a decade (and therefore haven't got their licensing booklets handy), but it used to be common knowledge that they didn't allow their apps to be run under anything but their own trademarked Windows[tm] versions. True/False/Escape?
Btw, I don't really understand why some people are so eager to support the other monopoly Micros~1 has, especially when supported commercial or open-source alternatives do exist.
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
Perhaps Microsoft very much wishes their office software to run smoothly on Linux, if not through Wine at first. Isn't cross-platform their goal? (Look at their Apple software.) This is, after all, their true cash cow.
BTW, Word is not half as good as WordPerfect ever was, but Excel is truely the only decent app they've written.
There is no need to use a SlashDot sig for SEO...
Good work wine team. You guys are amazing!
Now, please fix wine so it will run Tribes like the old Wine versions used to. :) :)
________
I don't think I'll try it, but it is nice to know that Wine is coming along so well. I still would like to see StarOffice (now that they have released the source) Gnumeric, Abiword, etc. keep up the linux side of the office. Word 2000 may be a very nice program but I think that some of the talented people who are working on the projects I mentioned can surpass it in form and function. Remember all the people who said "can't be done" or "maybe they will get Win 3.1 proggies working"? Thanks for all the hard work.
Insert pithy comment here.
Insert pithy comment here.
The computer usage of emulate came from this definition. The word emulate in computers originally meant to provide the features of something else by imitating all of its functions. For example, a piece of hardware might have a mode in which it emulates another piece of hardware (eg cheap sound cards emulating sound blasters). The narrower meaning of emulate, to interpret machine code of another platform in software, seems to be a later development. However, by the original meaning of the word, WINE certainly does emulate the Windows environment.
"Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto"
(I am a man: nothing human is alien to me)
My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
Ack! Pico? No! Bad!
... medic....quick...get me a big dose of vim....
*sounds of me choking to death on my tongue*
--
I'm glad that we have Excel2k and Word2k running on Wine, at least to the point where we can get a screenshot. That's a huge step foreward. But how stable is it beyond that? Can we run Excel2k and be 99% sure that it won't crash on us?
fearbush.com
Finding God in a Dog
Microsoft could probably release a new version of Word 2000 or Excel 2000 that wouldn't work under wine, but who cares if the current version does?
It isn't like there have actually been many actual advances in word processing technology. Most of the Office upgrades haven't done much except add prettier icons, busier menus, and meaningless toys (like the fold-down menus) so that nontechnical people can think "Oh, I'm getting distracted by all this technical stuff, but hey, I'm using a COMPUTER, so I must be being productive!"
I don't know where you people work but here, it's everything PowerPoint. I can't even hand in my consulting hours outline on anything but a PPT file. That's why I use Windows. And NT crashed twice on me yesterday. I am at the mercy of Bill.
i used to have to teach students about DBMS's with MS Access as the tool. Talk about an impossible job. That program just has no good qualitites. To wit:
* it has SQL, but the SQL is hidden. I felt retarded teaching students about databases and not teaching them SQL. Why? because every other friggin DBMS in the world uses SQL. Learning databases without it is like learning how to drive a swap-buggy and never driving it again.
* "Microsoft Jet Database Engine". Of all MS products, Access loves to hang. In a 2 hour long lab, at least 10-15 databases would hang to the point that the machine would have to be rebooted. At least once a week Access would have to be reinstalled. Similarly unacceptable, Access locks at the _database_ level. Talk about being useless. I wouldn't feel safe storing a list of phone numbers in it.
* Is SQL really that hard to learn? I think it would be easier to teach a newborn frog SQL than to teach a student all the menus and right-click properties stuff in Access.
* Disk footprint. One of the students projects was to build an application which had about 10 tables, 10 forms, and 1 report generator. The thing was bigger than 1.4 MB, although if you had dumped the entire database into flat files, it wouldn't have taken more than 10K. Serious. I don't know what the other 1.39 MB was for.
Anyway, I could go on. Access would be a good application if it kept things simple - simple data types, simple forms, and simple reports. But, click on any element in Access and then click on properties->All. They throw the whole kitchen sink into every field/control. It would be usefull if Access was in any way reliable for storing data, but since it isn't, it is just overkill to the nth degree.
My sneaking suspicion is that MS has built Access to distinctly confuse people about how a DBMS really works, and therefore make it harder for them to use an industrial dbms. I quit that job, but I still get angry whenever anyone talks about Access.
pico sucks, emacs forever!
I wonder if the API calls and file formats are protections for the copyrighted algorithms?
My mom is not a Karma whore!
- A good reason to stay with gnumeric and Emacs
- A good reason to stay with gnumeric and abiword
Maybe even:but PICO???
that's apples and oranges, unless you have a much different pico than I have. Seems akin to "You may use your 'typewriter' but I'll stick with my stone tablet". Of course, in that example even vi would be a nice word processor.
That doesn't change how cool it is that I can run office on a stable OS. Anyone know about the stability of office under WINE?
What are the advantages of office under WINE over office on Windows under VMware other than not paying for a license for the OS?
---------------
A vote for no candidates is a silent approval of them all - vote!!
+++ ATH0 +++
Excel looks so ugly in comparission of the beautiful Gnumeric spreadsheet!
They still have a better general purpose spreadsheet though.
Anyways, congrats to the Wine team!
Word and Excel are good apps, esp. because of the incompatibility in all office products import/export features. I've NEVER seen an import that worked all the time, especially when using some really advanced features of the product.
Of course, then there's the other 'lost app'. One to which there is no comperable version available for Linux (at least not what that I've found).
MS Project.
Being a manager, I can probably get away with Star Office for a lot of stuff. Hell, most of my stuff is in e-mail anyway. What I really need is a decent project-management package. Something with good task management, GANTT chart support, and maybe even some workload capabilities.
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
I think Wine is very cool, and I like what I saw of the screenshots, but why not use a tried a true virtual machine system like VMWare. There you can run *any* Windows app (or OS/2 app or BEOS app or DOS app or any i86-enabled OS's app) that you want. With Wine you can run *one* type of software only - Windows. The only advantage I see to Wine seems to be the price. With VMWare you need to license VMWare and own full versions of the Operating Systems you want to run. I use VMWare for both Linux and Win2K/NT and it's great. Let's not forget this option...!
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
*COUGH*
Wine Is Not an Emulator
*grin*
wolf31o2 Developer, Gentoo Linux Games Team
I could move over at work completly when outlook is ported over. That would cause me to jump up for joy.
i agree- youve got to be asking for it to run putty under wine. thats really obnoxious.
. .
it seems that COPYRIGHT DESIGNS AND PATENTS ACT 1988 effective in England and Wales might pre-empt Microsoft's EULAs prohibiting kinds of reverse engineering and decompilation
Hope this will be useful to someone.
Section 50B: Decompilation
50B.--(1) It is not an infringement of copyright for a lawful user of a copy of a computer program expressed in a low level language-
(a) to convert it into a version expressed in a higher level language, or
(b) incidentally in the course of so converting the program, to copy it, (that is, to "decompile" it), provided that the conditions in subsection (2) are met.
(2) The conditions are that-
(a) it is necessary to decompile the program to obtain the information necessary to create an independent program which can be operated with the program decompiled or with another program ("the permitted objective"); and
(b) the information so obtained is not used for any purpose other than the permitted objective.
(3) In particular, the conditions in subsection (2) are not met if the lawful user-
(a) has readily available to him the information necessary to achieve the permitted objective;
(b) does not confine the decompiling to such acts as are necessary to achieve the permitted objective;
(c) supplies the information obtained by the decompiling to any person to whom it is not necessary to supply it in order to achieve the permitted objective; or
(d) uses the information to create a program which is substantially similar in its expression to the program decompiled or to do any act restricted by copyright.
(4) Where an act is permitted under this section, it is irrelevant whether or not there exists any term or condition in an agreement which purports to prohibit or restrict the act (such terms being, by virtue of section 296A, void.
So how do those people that claim that Microsoft uses lots of undocumented APIs in their applications explain this, then?
Akihabara.
That could be a good reason to stick with GNUmeric and pico.
Pico?! Are you kidding me? What a useless text editor! You could at least say emacs or vim. What kind of self-respecting geek uses pico?
Whenever you walk by a computer and see someone using pico, be kind. Pause for a second and remind yourself that: "There, but for the grace of God, go I." -- Harley Hahn
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
My goal in life is to someday run Excel on Wine running on a Linux emulator running on Windows 2000.
Yes... I am playing it now as I type...very very cool :-)
Granted its only 640x480 but it still runs damnit! :-)
Here are a couple screen shots
http://zesta.rune.net/~mshaffer/d2.html
I work in the Marketing Department. Most used MS-Office App around here is PowerPoint. Between internal presentations, partner/big sales demos, and trade-show talks PowerPoint is *heavily* used.
The other one is Outlook. We recently switched over because 1) the task and meeting scheduling features make everyone's life easier (Marketing folk are always in meetings) and 2) any new hires are used to using Outlook.
Excel and Word are used pretty heavily, but the PowerPoint presentations are generally more important.
I can spell. I just can't type.
I personally wouldn't mind so much if we could just run windows 9x or 2000 on top of linux so at least my poor system doesn't have to reboot every time it crashes or needs to be restarted. :P
- darellik
QBE does not mean typing in the exact field name - it means using example elements as in pdox
Microsoft(tm) - a particular virulent virus that has infected most Pc's.
Now someone please let me know when it can run Dreamweaver...
The latest wine runs diablo 2 without the slightest fault. Including sound and so on. I am a necromancer level 12 (got the game yesterday!)
(Need to use the no cd binary from http://www.gamecopyworld.com and wine --winver nt40)
Is that a good enough game support for you? I love it.
Moritz
Well, Microsoft just released their latest Office 10 beta (supposedly ahead of schedule, if you believe that... I wonder if it'll take just as long (or longer) for it to run WINE...
You should try GnuCash - you can import & export .qif files, which means that you can later hand off everything in an easily imported format. I guess the only problem is that you have to do a .qif for each acount - I could be wrong on this since I've only played around with it a bit. Since Quicken just hosed my loans accounts I'll maybe look at it a bit closer... Good thing I've got backups. Have to say though that this is the first time in 4+ years that I've lost anything, which is pretty good.
wine /mnt/cdrom/setup.exe
it worked for Blade Runner, Diablo 2, Die By The Sword, Heavy Gear, and Final Fantasy 8, so I don't know why it wouldn't work for Office 2K.
In post-9/11 America, the CIA interrogates YOU!
Yes- I admit I paid up for VMware...However it was worth a couple of hundred bucks to not have to worry about "what version of CVS wine do I need to run what version of this office suite OR when can wine support this tax manager OR what parts of this program work and what parts do not work". At least with VMware I can keep all of those nasty
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.