doh, good point. They're probably even doing some XIP.. As far as the USB goes, this is probably still a valid reason not to use 2.2. I know some of it was backported, but I don't think all of it was. Mandrake had a kludgy hack going in 7.2 with the 2.2 kernel. Also, stability issues are probably the same between the 2.2 and 2.4 USB code...
Price tag is a little high for me right now, but it would make a nice replacement for my Agenda:)
Two things surprice me though.
1) why didn't they include more memory? This thing is set up to do some very cool things regarding multimedia, but videos/sound suck up space... Memory has to have dropped enough since I got my Agenda, hasn't it? Guess this is offset a little by the ability to drop Flash cards in, but they're dang expensive..
2) What's that little Serial/USB (via the Docking Station) port comment? Does that mean that I wouldn't have USB when I wasn't docked. That would kinda suck, but it's probably a power consumption issue. Wonder how long that battery runs a color screen?
1) The newest VM is probably the way to go for an embedded user responsive system. Comparisons posted here on slashdot show the newest 2.4 VM to whip the 2.2 VM
2) Not totally sure about this, but wouldn't the 2.4 kernel do a better job os supporting USB devices?
There's probably more too... As long as the OS is flashable (I'd be astonished if the developer editions had the OS ROM burned in...), then 2.4 is most likely a really good decision...
So, anyone know if this dude is just really really cool, or if there is some motivation to offer a bounty like this? Too bad I don't have a clue on how to go about writing modem drivers:)
3)Lisp programmer feel that speed is un-important because there is enough processor speed. (that little comment made me want to put my fist through my monitor) clearly not made by an engineer.
What the heck? I remember making exactly that comment when choosing Python to implement a Point of Sale system for a local business. The machines are powerful enough to run an interpreted language quickly, and it's a heck of a lot faster to develop under Python than under C++ or Java. If anything, that mentality *increases* my interest in the language...
Perhaps you are a hardware engineer or perhaps you work exclusivly on embedded systems. Either way, get a clue and recognize the usefulness of such a claim...
"Given the speed with which Microsoft can (and possibly will) change their APIs in the future (and possibly make their own apps incompatible with WINE if it becomes a threat), I don't know if running common applications is really feasible. Again, hardware emulation looks like the more viable approach to me."
Wait a sec? What are we emulating in hardware? Wouldn't we need to emulate the API? Or better yet, the entire OS? If so, it seems like a really terrible idea to attempt to do so in hardware given the possible rate of change in the API... Isn't that why a hardware "general purpose machine" makes more sense? Even though hardware emulation would be faster, the approach the WINE project is taking seems far more feasible.
Maybe I've totally missed something, but I don't see the hardware guys as having even the slightest chance in keeping up...
Given their typical audience, I'm not terribly surprised. You've got to realize that the 72% probably didn't even know they might find encryption useful for themselves. In fact, the general perception is probably that crypto is only needed by people with something to hide - like criminals.
Too bad they aren't that trusting with everything. Heck, then if I'm ever homeless, I can just walk into anyone's house and grab a bite 'cause it takes just a little too long for the police to 'break' down a door when making a bust and locks have been outlawed.
Probably not if it works anything like an existing system. I'd really suck if your current memory was limited by the speed of your IDE interface or even better, the speed of your floppy disk (assuming anyone still remembers what a floppy is.. )
I would assume that they could build the linking components out of molecular technology and see signifigant performance increases because the main bit pipelines would be super fast.
"It is my hope that, along with the U.S. Court of Appeals' opinion, the decision to have New Mexico settle its case with Microsoft will help open the way for the remaining parties to pursue realistic settlement terms," she said.
That, um, kinda sounds like support to me... (btw, she==Patsy Madrid, AG for New Mexico)
oh yeah, and don't forget this one:
"I am encouraged by the initial steps that Microsoft has taken to provide computer manufacturers with greater flexibility," Madrid said.
That sounds pretty supportive too. Say again, which article did you read?
Nope, not the way it works. I just made about $1500 with another $1000 contract on the way for a GPL'd program. Sure, I'm not receiving $0.55 each time someone sneezes near the program, but I'm making a little to live on. So, I give it away for free, but I get paid for the development. Not a bad situation at all...
Perhaps this is obvious, but the e-mail address for the law firm is RSW@Isarpatent.com. As stated with the Adobe contact info, be nice:) Mine's going off it a couple minutes.
This strikes as a *really* bad idea on Microsoft's part. They are forcing developers to not only make a decision between MS and Open Source, but are also giving many developers a choice they may not have even considered yet...
What purpose do they have in giving the GPL/et al more attention?
Either they are being totally witless, or they've got a motive I haven't figure out yet...
Where do you buy your groceries? How about your gas? 14 different major gas stations might actually be a tad high. Remember the article a few....... ack, how long ago was that... the days are merging together (oops, now the days are merging too. what ever shall we do?)
Anyway, the article citing the concentration of big business... This is a surprise? Consolidation is a new thing? How many active distros are there for Linux right now? 14? Really? Raise of hands for Mandrake/Red Hat/Slackware/Debian/Suse? Did I miss anyone? (probably did and that will just serve to destroy my argument...).
How about your television shows? How many *major* stations are there? Certainly not 14...
And on and on and on... You see, consolidation is a fundamental principle. As the goals of a large group of people come closer together, the group merges, pools resources, and strives to better the achievement of the common goal.
Now perhaps this is a dangerous merge, but a surprise. Hardly...
This, from the real world where software is stable and ready for the end user...
"Now I'll show you how to use Outlook Express... It's a pretty decent e-mail application that's included by default on your system." <click>
"Ok, here's how you create a message blah blah blah"
"Now that we've sent you a message to yourself, we can reply to it by clicking on this button." <click>
45 year old husband and wife (average users...) - "What just happened?"
"Ahhhhhhhhhh, crap! This little box on the screen may pop up periodically on your screen. It means that your application has crashed. It's probably a good idea to restart whenever you get one of those."
"But, why does it do that?"
"I don't know, I really don't know..."
Ironically, it's not any harder to explain the KDE crash dialog than it is to explain the Windows one. Imagine that....
So, which desktop is on its way to death? My former music instructor who has little technical experience attempted to install Linux because he heard it was stable. How long will it be before either Microsoft releases more stable software or loses a lot of really pissed customers. Losing work because your OS can keep from tripping over itself is frustrating.
Rather than the death of linux on the desktop, we are watching it grow up. For geeks, it's already there. For many consumers including several recent clients, it's already there. For my example above, it's almost there and really not that different except for configuration.
Neal Stephenson (ack, probably spelled his name wrong) wrote a little piece about exactly that. The jist of his argument was this:
The user complained that they didn't know how to maintain linux so it wasn't an option. The other speaker, comments that they can't maintain Windows either... Way too true...
Give it up, I'm using Linux on my desktop(s) right now. Linux is definitely not dead on my desktop...
I agree, text does = cheap and personally I use konsole more than konqi, sometimes even using lynx instead:)
But... if the customer feels more comfortable in a windowed environment (most do), then why push the text based apps? *cough* Windows 3.1 *cough* will run on a 386 and do a *cough* fairly nice *cough* job of it all things considered.
My Agenda has a windowing system. It's only going at about 100 Mhz. Qt Embedded runs off a floppy if you wish (thought about trying to get that running on a 486 I had). Windowed environment doesn't *have* to = expensive.
Have we forgotten how to add keyboard navigation to our windowed apps? Short of the perception that text based apps are more keyboard friendly, what other advantages do text based apps add.
And please don't pull the "But text based apps are the only thing that will run on my precious 8086 that's been passed down for three hundred years." The majority of machines will run a reasonably powerful windowing environment. Further, it a company cannot invest in machines that are less than 4 years old, perhaps they should stick with paper...
So the question still stands.. What do text based apps have to offer?
Yet another round of Agenda bashing... Let's get a couple of things straight.
We (slashdotters in general) bashed the crap out of them for intending releasing a product that was not ready for consumption by the average Joe.
We (yes, you know who you are) are now bashing the crap out of Agenda for not releasing an unfinished product.
What did I miss here?
Let's try some questions now...
Has any critic really looked at the application base and how quickly it is growing?
How about HWR? Several different solutions to the HWR problem have already been presented by the Agenda user community.
Aliens? (yep, the green squishy things from space...)
Did you know BlackBox is loading?
etc etc etc
I, for one, am glad to see Agenda make the decision to hold off on the consumer release. If the parent company is not doing well, much of the pressure to get the product out the door is probably coming from above. Congrats to Agenda for holding out until an excellent product is deliverable.
And now the trolls can go crawl under a rock. Crawl back out next time Microsoft "releases" on time and then you can gripe and complain about how they should have fixed the bugs....
sigh... Maybe flashing the newest romdisk will make me feel better...
You say you don't know how to use your editor? The tab key is on the left hand side of your keyboard, most likely. Usually you will find an option like "Tabs to spaces" or something like that in, ummm, maybe "Options."
There, now you can read the *rest* of the LX page.
Re:The OS doesn't matter that much
on
Agenda VR3 Review
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· Score: 1
Let's consider CrapOS 0.1 then... How many apps already exist for porting? How stable is CrapOS? How *available* is CrapOS? What kind of support base exists for CrapOS? What kind of things need implemented on top of CrapOS for it to make sense on a PDA? etc etc etc.
Many of the questions that can be asked about PDA development are directly tied to what's available on the chosen OS or what you must write yourself. True, the applications, battery and form factor are very important, but you must start with some kind of foundation.
This is the first time that Linux has been "touted" as the OS behind a PDA and IMHO it's a huge thing to brag about. Not because of the difficulty of the feat, but rather as you say, the "potential."
Re:Is Linux really the OS you want on your handhel
on
Agenda VR3 Review
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· Score: 1
Yup, without a question.
True, the Agenda is not ready for prime time yet although huge leaps have been made in the last few months. As such, it might be considered a "poor" way to give Linux to the masses as another reader mentioned.
On the other hand, Linux clearly has the potential as demonstrated by the IBM watch project and the advances the owners of VR3's (myself included) have seen in the last few months. Even if the implementation by Agenda is lacking at this point, don't judge the viability of Linux as a handheld OS based solely on that one example. Furthermore, I expect that Agenda's solution will improve faster than we anticipate. Give it time.
Re:Going to wait for a post-release review
on
Agenda VR3 Review
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· Score: 1
- lithium ion battery with decent (10-20 hour) lifetime. This is one of my largest considerations because otherwise I have to plunk down more money for less-convenient NiMH batteries (which I use in my current PDA and digital camera).
A rechargable unit has already been mentioned several times and will likely be available for the consumer release...
- A set of physical scroll buttons (up and down) is essential; I like to read on my palmtops, and to tap to scroll down too much of a pain.
??
Unless I misunderstand you, the scroll buttons exist. They are on the upper left hand side of the device and work great (for rightys, that is )
- expansion cards for storage and wireless networking are essential - modems are practically useless (at least to me), but a wireless network card would give me access in many buildings I occupy.
I too am waiting to see what happens here. It looks to be very possible, but it will be interesting to see which approach Agenda takes.
However, it's unfair to simply denounce this as a horrible product when the reviewer has nothing more than a pre-production release. I imagine he got something that was put together between a few days to a few weeks ago. A lot of changes can happen in the one month previous to a release.
Good call. I wish everyone would take that as a perspective. As mentioned many times, this idea has tremendous potential.
Slashdot Mirror
doh, good point. They're probably even doing some XIP.. As far as the USB goes, this is probably still a valid reason not to use 2.2. I know some of it was backported, but I don't think all of it was. Mandrake had a kludgy hack going in 7.2 with the 2.2 kernel. Also, stability issues are probably the same between the 2.2 and 2.4 USB code...
Some of it has been backported to 2.2, but I don't think all of it has been. Mandrake had hacked USB support with the 2.2 kernel in 7.2
Price tag is a little high for me right now, but it would make a nice replacement for my Agenda :)
Two things surprice me though.
1) why didn't they include more memory? This thing is set up to do some very cool things regarding multimedia, but videos/sound suck up space... Memory has to have dropped enough since I got my Agenda, hasn't it? Guess this is offset a little by the ability to drop Flash cards in, but they're dang expensive..
2) What's that little Serial/USB (via the Docking Station) port comment? Does that mean that I wouldn't have USB when I wasn't docked. That would kinda suck, but it's probably a power consumption issue. Wonder how long that battery runs a color screen?
Greg
Two things instantly come to mind...
1) The newest VM is probably the way to go for an embedded user responsive system. Comparisons posted here on slashdot show the newest 2.4 VM to whip the 2.2 VM
2) Not totally sure about this, but wouldn't the 2.4 kernel do a better job os supporting USB devices?
There's probably more too... As long as the OS is flashable (I'd be astonished if the developer editions had the OS ROM burned in...), then 2.4 is most likely a really good decision...
Greg
So, anyone know if this dude is just really really cool, or if there is some motivation to offer a bounty like this? Too bad I don't have a clue on how to go about writing modem drivers :)
Greg
3)Lisp programmer feel that speed is un-important because there is enough processor speed. (that little comment made me want to put my fist through my monitor) clearly not made by an engineer.
What the heck? I remember making exactly that comment when choosing Python to implement a Point of Sale system for a local business. The machines are powerful enough to run an interpreted language quickly, and it's a heck of a lot faster to develop under Python than under C++ or Java. If anything, that mentality *increases* my interest in the language...
Perhaps you are a hardware engineer or perhaps you work exclusivly on embedded systems. Either way, get a clue and recognize the usefulness of such a claim...
You saw that Kazaa released a Linux client, right? Yes, it's buggy, but clearly they intend to pursue the idea...
"Given the speed with which Microsoft can (and possibly will) change their APIs in the future (and possibly make their own apps incompatible with WINE if it becomes a threat), I don't know if running common applications is really feasible. Again, hardware emulation looks like the more viable approach to me."
Wait a sec? What are we emulating in hardware? Wouldn't we need to emulate the API? Or better yet, the entire OS? If so, it seems like a really terrible idea to attempt to do so in hardware given the possible rate of change in the API... Isn't that why a hardware "general purpose machine" makes more sense? Even though hardware emulation would be faster, the approach the WINE project is taking seems far more feasible.
Maybe I've totally missed something, but I don't see the hardware guys as having even the slightest chance in keeping up...
Given their typical audience, I'm not terribly surprised. You've got to realize that the 72% probably didn't even know they might find encryption useful for themselves. In fact, the general perception is probably that crypto is only needed by people with something to hide - like criminals.
Too bad they aren't that trusting with everything. Heck, then if I'm ever homeless, I can just walk into anyone's house and grab a bite 'cause it takes just a little too long for the police to 'break' down a door when making a bust and locks have been outlawed.
*sigh*
Greg
Probably not if it works anything like an existing system. I'd really suck if your current memory was limited by the speed of your IDE interface or even better, the speed of your floppy disk (assuming anyone still remembers what a floppy is.. )
I would assume that they could build the linking components out of molecular technology and see signifigant performance increases because the main bit pipelines would be super fast.
Greg
and this one.....
"It is my hope that, along with the U.S. Court of Appeals' opinion, the decision to have New Mexico settle its case with Microsoft will help open the way for the remaining parties to pursue realistic settlement terms," she said.
That, um, kinda sounds like support to me... (btw, she==Patsy Madrid, AG for New Mexico)
oh yeah, and don't forget this one:
"I am encouraged by the initial steps that Microsoft has taken to provide computer manufacturers with greater flexibility," Madrid said.
That sounds pretty supportive too. Say again, which article did you read?
Greg
Nope, not the way it works. I just made about $1500 with another $1000 contract on the way for a GPL'd program. Sure, I'm not receiving $0.55 each time someone sneezes near the program, but I'm making a little to live on. So, I give it away for free, but I get paid for the development. Not a bad situation at all...
There doesn't appear to be anyone even remotely qualified. Looks like they are mainly into the chemical/electrical/and physics industries.
How the heck did they catch the computer software thing? Can't seem to get a direct link to that page, but it's pretty simple to find...
Greg
Perhaps this is obvious, but the e-mail address for the law firm is RSW@Isarpatent.com. :) Mine's going off it a couple minutes.
As stated with the Adobe contact info, be nice
Greg
This strikes as a *really* bad idea on Microsoft's part. They are forcing developers to not only make a decision between MS and Open Source, but are also giving many developers a choice they may not have even considered yet...
What purpose do they have in giving the GPL/et al more attention?
Either they are being totally witless, or they've got a motive I haven't figure out yet...
Where do you buy your groceries? How about your gas? 14 different major gas stations might actually be a tad high. Remember the article a few ....... ack, how long ago was that... the days are merging together (oops, now the days are merging too. what ever shall we do?)
Anyway, the article citing the concentration of big business... This is a surprise? Consolidation is a new thing? How many active distros are there for Linux right now? 14? Really? Raise of hands for Mandrake/Red Hat/Slackware/Debian/Suse? Did I miss anyone? (probably did and that will just serve to destroy my argument...).
How about your television shows? How many *major* stations are there? Certainly not 14...
And on and on and on... You see, consolidation is a fundamental principle. As the goals of a large group of people come closer together, the group merges, pools resources, and strives to better the achievement of the common goal.
Now perhaps this is a dangerous merge, but a surprise. Hardly...
This, from the real world where software is stable and ready for the end user...
"Now I'll show you how to use Outlook Express... It's a pretty decent e-mail application that's included by default on your system." <click>
"Ok, here's how you create a message blah blah blah"
"Now that we've sent you a message to yourself, we can reply to it by clicking on this button." <click>
45 year old husband and wife (average users...) - "What just happened?"
"Ahhhhhhhhhh, crap! This little box on the screen may pop up periodically on your screen. It means that your application has crashed. It's probably a good idea to restart whenever you get one of those."
"But, why does it do that?"
"I don't know, I really don't know..."
Ironically, it's not any harder to explain the KDE crash dialog than it is to explain the Windows one. Imagine that....
So, which desktop is on its way to death? My former music instructor who has little technical experience attempted to install Linux because he heard it was stable. How long will it be before either Microsoft releases more stable software or loses a lot of really pissed customers. Losing work because your OS can keep from tripping over itself is frustrating.
Rather than the death of linux on the desktop, we are watching it grow up. For geeks, it's already there. For many consumers including several recent clients, it's already there. For my example above, it's almost there and really not that different except for configuration.
Neal Stephenson (ack, probably spelled his name wrong) wrote a little piece about exactly that. The jist of his argument was this:
The user complained that they didn't know how to maintain linux so it wasn't an option. The other speaker, comments that they can't maintain Windows either... Way too true...
Give it up, I'm using Linux on my desktop(s) right now. Linux is definitely not dead on my desktop...
I agree, text does = cheap and personally I use konsole more than konqi, sometimes even using lynx instead :)
But... if the customer feels more comfortable in a windowed environment (most do), then why push the text based apps? *cough* Windows 3.1 *cough* will run on a 386 and do a *cough* fairly nice *cough* job of it all things considered.
My Agenda has a windowing system. It's only going at about 100 Mhz. Qt Embedded runs off a floppy if you wish (thought about trying to get that running on a 486 I had). Windowed environment doesn't *have* to = expensive.
Have we forgotten how to add keyboard navigation to our windowed apps? Short of the perception that text based apps are more keyboard friendly, what other advantages do text based apps add.
And please don't pull the "But text based apps are the only thing that will run on my precious 8086 that's been passed down for three hundred years." The majority of machines will run a reasonably powerful windowing environment. Further, it a company cannot invest in machines that are less than 4 years old, perhaps they should stick with paper...
So the question still stands.. What do text based apps have to offer?
Let's get a couple of things straight.
Let's try some questions now...
I, for one, am glad to see Agenda make the decision to hold off on the consumer release. If the parent company is not doing well, much of the pressure to get the product out the door is probably coming from above. Congrats to Agenda for holding out until an excellent product is deliverable.
And now the trolls can go crawl under a rock. Crawl back out next time Microsoft "releases" on time and then you can gripe and complain about how they should have fixed the bugs....
sigh... Maybe flashing the newest romdisk will make me feel better...
hrm, musta been one of those had one things. Have you looked at it lately?
You say you don't know how to use your editor? The tab key is on the left hand side of your keyboard, most likely. Usually you will find an option like "Tabs to spaces" or something like that in, ummm, maybe "Options."
There, now you can read the *rest* of the LX page.
Let's consider CrapOS 0.1 then... How many apps already exist for porting? How stable is CrapOS? How *available* is CrapOS? What kind of support base exists for CrapOS? What kind of things need implemented on top of CrapOS for it to make sense on a PDA? etc etc etc.
Many of the questions that can be asked about PDA development are directly tied to what's available on the chosen OS or what you must write yourself. True, the applications, battery and form factor are very important, but you must start with some kind of foundation.
This is the first time that Linux has been "touted" as the OS behind a PDA and IMHO it's a huge thing to brag about. Not because of the difficulty of the feat, but rather as you say, the "potential."
Yup, without a question.
True, the Agenda is not ready for prime time yet although huge leaps have been made in the last few months. As such, it might be considered a "poor" way to give Linux to the masses as another reader mentioned.
On the other hand, Linux clearly has the potential as demonstrated by the IBM watch project and the advances the owners of VR3's (myself included) have seen in the last few months. Even if the implementation by Agenda is lacking at this point, don't judge the viability of Linux as a handheld OS based solely on that one example. Furthermore, I expect that Agenda's solution will improve faster than we anticipate. Give it time.
- lithium ion battery with decent (10-20 hour) lifetime. This is one of my largest considerations because otherwise I have to plunk down more money for less-convenient NiMH batteries (which I use in my current PDA and digital camera).
- A set of physical scroll buttons (up and down) is essential; I like to read on my palmtops, and to tap to scroll down too much of a pain.A rechargable unit has already been mentioned several times and will likely be available for the consumer release...
??
Unless I misunderstand you, the scroll buttons exist. They are on the upper left hand side of the device and work great (for rightys, that is )
- expansion cards for storage and wireless networking are essential - modems are practically useless (at least to me), but a wireless network card would give me access in many buildings I occupy.
I too am waiting to see what happens here. It looks to be very possible, but it will be interesting to see which approach Agenda takes.
However, it's unfair to simply denounce this as a horrible product when the reviewer has nothing more than a pre-production release. I imagine he got something that was put together between a few days to a few weeks ago. A lot of changes can happen in the one month previous to a release.
Good call. I wish everyone would take that as a perspective. As mentioned many times, this idea has tremendous potential.