You're missing the point entirely. I'd say intentionally.
The sort of adolescent behavior you're defending not only contributes nothing, but is actively harmful to any project. This is very simple. By allowing or encouraging that behavior, you're actively working against the best interests of the project.
All other issues aside, you can not justify that behavior on any rational or technical grounds. It's simply not possible.
You're telling me to build something. Well, I have. So have many other people. We've done it without waving our dicks around and grunting. We've done it without alienating potential contributors or fellow coworkers. We've done it without abusive language, bullying, or intimidation.
Those things are not only unnecessary, they're harmful to the project. By harmful I mean directly harmful. Agitated developers don't work as efficiently. Time spent chest-thumping and dick-measuring is time not spent working toward the project's goals. It also happens to chase out developers who don't want to waste their time dealing with petulant children when they could be contributing something.
I build things. You waste time with petty insults. Go Build Something and quit all this whining and complaining. It's not productive.
I did? Did I call you up and say "hey, post some silly nonsense on the Getting More Women Coders Into Open Source thread!"
No, that's not quite right. You decided all on your own to express your outrage here on Slashdot. I later pointed out that your own actions are counter to your stated goals. This bothers you for some reason, so you post again, further proving that Dice was right to post this particular article.
More page views for this topic means more articles like this one. Congratulations, you've done it again.
This is an excellent example of the kind of intensely rational discourse you'll find in open source projects. Nothing but substance here. Why, if you don't feel welcome in a community that focuses exclusively on technical merit and produces posts with such infallible logic, well, surely you're the one with the problem.
I might have expected that one... Let's cut through this quick:
We can all accept that she made mistakes using those examples. They do not support the points or arguments she makes.
Moving on, can you speak to any of the actual points she's made? So far, all I get are "her example isn't right so we should dismiss everything she says on the basis of those few mistakes." You'll find that you can dismiss anything on that basis. It's completely irrational.
If you are not seeing the videos and posts that address the points she was making,
Well, you haven't managed to come up with anything. If it exists, please, point it out.
Naive or just trolling? Seriously, that statement is absolute idiocy.
Neither one. I do, however, have the ability to count and determine if one value is larger or smaller than another value. I presume you lack this ability otherwise you'd see that what I'm saying is simply a matter of fact. There are far more posts ranting against "sjw's" and similar absurdities than other sorts of posts.
Another bold faced lie! I don't watch ABC, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, FOX, or any other main stream "News" channel as a boycott and guess what? They still show stories exactly like this one, and drop tidbits of propaganda all the time.
If you don't watch those programs, how would you know? More seriously, this has nothing to do with my post. Slashdot puts these stories up because it makes people like you go crazy -- filling up the comments section and generating page views. If you (and people like you) faced reality, or at least got over your inexplicable outrage, and stopped posting these topics wouldn't be so lucrative and would fade away. That's pretty simple, isn't it?
What is the difference between Slashdot and those places? Simple! I can express a countering opinion and dissatisfaction with the story.
Well, that's exactly what DICE want. They want you to click, read, and post. This is the sort of story that makes you want to post, and reply, and watch for follow-ups. In short, it generates page views. They couldn't care less if you hate stories like these -- the purpose of stories is to generate page views. Rather than discourage them, you're actively encouraging them to post more stories like these. Oh, the irony...
Social justice demands equality in numbers. [...] But these are the same people who also tell us that women are exactly like men and that any difference is a false social construct.
Kick the shit out of that straw-man! Beat it down! YEAH!
The assumed default gender is male in those contexts -- just like it's assumed that posters with gender-neutral usernames here are male. Men, consequently, need do nothing to hide their gender. Women must, as you point out, as they'll be subject to unwelcome male advances when all they really wanted to do was contribute to the project. There are other problems for women should their gender be known that I'll save for another time.
You already acknowledge a social dimension to participation in such a project. Women, by your criteria for participation, are significantly hampered. Should they let any clue as to their gender escape, they'll face a host of issues. Issues, presumably, you understand given that you acknowledge that they need to hide their gender.
As there are strictures imposed on their participation, there are necessarily barriers to their participation. Barriers, I should point out, that men do not face.
Just as men interested in nursing face obstacles that women in nursing don't face, so women interested in computers face obstacles that men don't face. In both cases, it's a result of societal pressure.
If you want your ideal to be realized, you need to make people aware of the issues. It's the first step toward effecting social change. Ignoring or denying the problem does nothing but perpetuate the status quo.
The more interesting question is why no one seems to have a problem encouraging more men to go in to nursing, but so many people seems to think encouraging more women to enter tech is going to destroy the world...
If by "calling her out on her bullshit" you mean misrepresenting her ideas to mean whatever you want them to mean and then "debunking" that?
Because that's really all I've seen. I've yet to see a criticism from that camp that actually addressed the points she was making. I have seen a lot of irrational nonsense from second-rate media skeptics out for a few page views, however. Hell, most of them can be addressed by the preface she places at the beginning of ever one of her videos!
The think about reason and critical thinking is that you need to apply those skills everywhere -- not just to those things to which you viscerally disagree. A bad argument is a bad argument even if you agree with the conclusion. Try applying those same skills to one of your favorite critiques. How do those arguments hold up to the light of reason? I'll apologize in advance as you're going to lose at least one of your heroes.
So, yes, most of the criticism she receives is undeserved as it has little to nothing to do with the actual content of her videos. Real criticism is possible (she's not exactly top-tier) though it would be difficult to find any (if any exists) among the endless torrent of irrational and otherwise irrelevant responses.
Did you miss the earlier discussion? Toxic communities drive people away, regardless of their ability or the quality of their contributions. Ridiculous posturing, grunting, and dick-waving get old really quick. The worst of it? It takes away from actually working on the project. The adolescent behavior you're defending does nothing to help the project.
Further, it should be obvious to everyone by now that development doesn't happen in some purely objective and impossibly rational context. The code does not stand on its own -- not in any community. There are politics, power struggles, bullies, and victims. Contributions are rarely, if ever, judged solely on their own merits. The person submitting a change, their reputation, and relationships to other members plays a far greater roll. It always has.
You've mistaken your ideals for reality. The world is not what you believe it ought to be.
You make it clear that your problem isn't with feminism or diversity. You just want to protect your own interests. You unfairly benefit from the status quo. You're terrified that you won't be able to survive if faced with a little competition in the job market.
If you haven't noticed, the vast majority of posts here are from people who "think" like you do. Slashdot is no bastion of feminism; it's quite the opposite, in fact. You'll find very few contrary voices in your nearly pristine echo chamber.
So what audience are articles like these intended to attract? It should be obvious: People like you. You are the market for these stories. People like you make the overwhelming majority of posts and page views.
If you don't want to see stories like this, the simple solution is to not participate in these pretend discussions. Slashdot profits on your misdirected outrage, after all. If you ignore these stories, they will go away.
Grunting and dick-waving are, to most people, on the "down" side of things. I also read "catering to the neediness of the special snowflakes" a bit differently. That's what the socially incompetent bullies do to make themselves feel better. Unfortunately, that's always at the expense of others. It'll cost you not only good workers, who either leave or never join, but also in productivity. No one works well when they're agitated, and good people know that working in a needlessly hostile environment isn't worth their time.
The rest of the civilized world understands that treating people with dignity and respect elevates everyone. You not only get more productivity out of your existing workers, but also attract talented people.
If it takes significant effort for you to act like a professional, you're not a professional. We don't need people like that in the workplace; they cause real economic harm.
Believe it or not, this works with everyone. Everyone, not just women, want to have their work acknowledged. I'm speaking in absolutes here intentionally -- no one is offended when you praise their work.
You just may find a tick in productivity when you offer your male subordinates some praise along with your criticisms as well.
Just treat people like people. Being "nice the entire time" shouldn't be "exhausting" unless you're an insufferable jerk with an undeserved sense of superiority.
Have you considered the possibility that you're ideas are terrible and simply aren't worth further consideration?
People like you get their way not because others are enlightened and see the value in your ideas, but because your disruptions are actually causing more harm than your terrible idea would cause.
People use it in those places because it's free, not because it's particularly good. In the case of smartphones, the underlying OS is completely irrelevant. There's no serious reason that FXOS or Android couldn't run on top of a different OS. Further, a number of the spaces you mention aren't generally a good fit for a monolithic kernel archetecture, but get saddled with Linux anyway because it's free.
Without Linus to create Git, you probably wouldn't have had communities like GitHub emerge nowadays (or they would have tried to built on much less optimal technology
Git still sucks, it just happens to suck less than the alternatives. You don't need Linus or some other auteur to get a crummy VCS. It's entirely possible that some lesser known or unknown alternative would have risen to prominence but was overshadowed by Git (or simply dropped by the developers).
There are a few problems here. 1) You don't understand the concept of equality. 2) You don't see anything wrong with your behavior.
Here's a hint: Men don't like your shitty attitude any more than women do. Women are just more likely to call you out than the other beta males you abuse.
Slashdot Mirror
You're missing the point entirely. I'd say intentionally.
The sort of adolescent behavior you're defending not only contributes nothing, but is actively harmful to any project. This is very simple. By allowing or encouraging that behavior, you're actively working against the best interests of the project.
All other issues aside, you can not justify that behavior on any rational or technical grounds. It's simply not possible.
You're telling me to build something. Well, I have. So have many other people. We've done it without waving our dicks around and grunting. We've done it without alienating potential contributors or fellow coworkers. We've done it without abusive language, bullying, or intimidation.
Those things are not only unnecessary, they're harmful to the project. By harmful I mean directly harmful. Agitated developers don't work as efficiently. Time spent chest-thumping and dick-measuring is time not spent working toward the project's goals. It also happens to chase out developers who don't want to waste their time dealing with petulant children when they could be contributing something.
I build things. You waste time with petty insults. Go Build Something and quit all this whining and complaining. It's not productive.
I agree!
We're only hurting ourselves by accepting these kinds of behaviors.
Dice did not pester me to respond, you did.
I did? Did I call you up and say "hey, post some silly nonsense on the Getting More Women Coders Into Open Source thread!"
No, that's not quite right. You decided all on your own to express your outrage here on Slashdot. I later pointed out that your own actions are counter to your stated goals. This bothers you for some reason, so you post again, further proving that Dice was right to post this particular article.
More page views for this topic means more articles like this one. Congratulations, you've done it again.
Big scary idea's like "This problem everyone is talking about doesn't exist"? Compelling arguments like "you're retarded".
You've got to be kidding me!
Amazing...
This is an excellent example of the kind of intensely rational discourse you'll find in open source projects. Nothing but substance here. Why, if you don't feel welcome in a community that focuses exclusively on technical merit and produces posts with such infallible logic, well, surely you're the one with the problem.
I might have expected that one... Let's cut through this quick:
We can all accept that she made mistakes using those examples. They do not support the points or arguments she makes.
Moving on, can you speak to any of the actual points she's made? So far, all I get are "her example isn't right so we should dismiss everything she says on the basis of those few mistakes." You'll find that you can dismiss anything on that basis. It's completely irrational.
If you are not seeing the videos and posts that address the points she was making,
Well, you haven't managed to come up with anything. If it exists, please, point it out.
I'm impressed so many people completely missed the point. It's almost as if you don't want to understand the issue...
Naive or just trolling? Seriously, that statement is absolute idiocy.
Neither one. I do, however, have the ability to count and determine if one value is larger or smaller than another value. I presume you lack this ability otherwise you'd see that what I'm saying is simply a matter of fact. There are far more posts ranting against "sjw's" and similar absurdities than other sorts of posts.
Another bold faced lie! I don't watch ABC, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, FOX, or any other main stream "News" channel as a boycott and guess what? They still show stories exactly like this one, and drop tidbits of propaganda all the time.
If you don't watch those programs, how would you know? More seriously, this has nothing to do with my post. Slashdot puts these stories up because it makes people like you go crazy -- filling up the comments section and generating page views. If you (and people like you) faced reality, or at least got over your inexplicable outrage, and stopped posting these topics wouldn't be so lucrative and would fade away. That's pretty simple, isn't it?
What is the difference between Slashdot and those places? Simple! I can express a countering opinion and dissatisfaction with the story.
Well, that's exactly what DICE want. They want you to click, read, and post. This is the sort of story that makes you want to post, and reply, and watch for follow-ups. In short, it generates page views. They couldn't care less if you hate stories like these -- the purpose of stories is to generate page views. Rather than discourage them, you're actively encouraging them to post more stories like these. Oh, the irony...
Try reading my post.
Social justice demands equality in numbers. [...] But these are the same people who also tell us that women are exactly like men and that any difference is a false social construct.
Kick the shit out of that straw-man! Beat it down! YEAH!
This has been addressed to death.
The assumed default gender is male in those contexts -- just like it's assumed that posters with gender-neutral usernames here are male. Men, consequently, need do nothing to hide their gender. Women must, as you point out, as they'll be subject to unwelcome male advances when all they really wanted to do was contribute to the project. There are other problems for women should their gender be known that I'll save for another time.
You already acknowledge a social dimension to participation in such a project. Women, by your criteria for participation, are significantly hampered. Should they let any clue as to their gender escape, they'll face a host of issues. Issues, presumably, you understand given that you acknowledge that they need to hide their gender.
As there are strictures imposed on their participation, there are necessarily barriers to their participation. Barriers, I should point out, that men do not face.
Except that doesn't happen.
Just as men interested in nursing face obstacles that women in nursing don't face, so women interested in computers face obstacles that men don't face. In both cases, it's a result of societal pressure.
If you want your ideal to be realized, you need to make people aware of the issues. It's the first step toward effecting social change. Ignoring or denying the problem does nothing but perpetuate the status quo.
The more interesting question is why no one seems to have a problem encouraging more men to go in to nursing, but so many people seems to think encouraging more women to enter tech is going to destroy the world...
If by "calling her out on her bullshit" you mean misrepresenting her ideas to mean whatever you want them to mean and then "debunking" that?
Because that's really all I've seen. I've yet to see a criticism from that camp that actually addressed the points she was making. I have seen a lot of irrational nonsense from second-rate media skeptics out for a few page views, however. Hell, most of them can be addressed by the preface she places at the beginning of ever one of her videos!
The think about reason and critical thinking is that you need to apply those skills everywhere -- not just to those things to which you viscerally disagree. A bad argument is a bad argument even if you agree with the conclusion. Try applying those same skills to one of your favorite critiques. How do those arguments hold up to the light of reason? I'll apologize in advance as you're going to lose at least one of your heroes.
So, yes, most of the criticism she receives is undeserved as it has little to nothing to do with the actual content of her videos. Real criticism is possible (she's not exactly top-tier) though it would be difficult to find any (if any exists) among the endless torrent of irrational and otherwise irrelevant responses.
Did you miss the earlier discussion? Toxic communities drive people away, regardless of their ability or the quality of their contributions. Ridiculous posturing, grunting, and dick-waving get old really quick. The worst of it? It takes away from actually working on the project. The adolescent behavior you're defending does nothing to help the project.
Further, it should be obvious to everyone by now that development doesn't happen in some purely objective and impossibly rational context. The code does not stand on its own -- not in any community. There are politics, power struggles, bullies, and victims. Contributions are rarely, if ever, judged solely on their own merits. The person submitting a change, their reputation, and relationships to other members plays a far greater roll. It always has.
You've mistaken your ideals for reality. The world is not what you believe it ought to be.
There is a strong correlation between shit code and developers with dicks. It's pretty strong, but Is it causal?
Perhaps in the case of the perl one-liner -- which is essentially dick-waving...
You make it clear that your problem isn't with feminism or diversity. You just want to protect your own interests. You unfairly benefit from the status quo. You're terrified that you won't be able to survive if faced with a little competition in the job market.
Pitiful.
If you haven't noticed, the vast majority of posts here are from people who "think" like you do. Slashdot is no bastion of feminism; it's quite the opposite, in fact. You'll find very few contrary voices in your nearly pristine echo chamber.
So what audience are articles like these intended to attract? It should be obvious: People like you. You are the market for these stories. People like you make the overwhelming majority of posts and page views.
If you don't want to see stories like this, the simple solution is to not participate in these pretend discussions. Slashdot profits on your misdirected outrage, after all. If you ignore these stories, they will go away.
I rather dislike the all-too-common implication that the amount of politeness one is due depends on one's sex.
The only people saying that are the MRA's and other misogynists. You're living in an echo chamber.
Oh, the plight of the white male! How horrible we have it! If only we had absurd majority representation in government and industry!
Oh, that unnamed group ... somewhere? ... that blames us for all their ills! Their unrelenting oppression threatens our very existence!
Grunting and dick-waving are, to most people, on the "down" side of things. I also read "catering to the neediness of the special snowflakes" a bit differently. That's what the socially incompetent bullies do to make themselves feel better. Unfortunately, that's always at the expense of others. It'll cost you not only good workers, who either leave or never join, but also in productivity. No one works well when they're agitated, and good people know that working in a needlessly hostile environment isn't worth their time.
The rest of the civilized world understands that treating people with dignity and respect elevates everyone. You not only get more productivity out of your existing workers, but also attract talented people.
If it takes significant effort for you to act like a professional, you're not a professional. We don't need people like that in the workplace; they cause real economic harm.
Believe it or not, this works with everyone. Everyone, not just women, want to have their work acknowledged. I'm speaking in absolutes here intentionally -- no one is offended when you praise their work.
You just may find a tick in productivity when you offer your male subordinates some praise along with your criticisms as well.
Just treat people like people. Being "nice the entire time" shouldn't be "exhausting" unless you're an insufferable jerk with an undeserved sense of superiority.
Have you considered the possibility that you're ideas are terrible and simply aren't worth further consideration?
People like you get their way not because others are enlightened and see the value in your ideas, but because your disruptions are actually causing more harm than your terrible idea would cause.
People use it in those places because it's free, not because it's particularly good. In the case of smartphones, the underlying OS is completely irrelevant. There's no serious reason that FXOS or Android couldn't run on top of a different OS. Further, a number of the spaces you mention aren't generally a good fit for a monolithic kernel archetecture, but get saddled with Linux anyway because it's free.
Without Linus to create Git, you probably wouldn't have had communities like GitHub emerge nowadays (or they would have tried to built on much less optimal technology
Git still sucks, it just happens to suck less than the alternatives. You don't need Linus or some other auteur to get a crummy VCS. It's entirely possible that some lesser known or unknown alternative would have risen to prominence but was overshadowed by Git (or simply dropped by the developers).
Easy there, Jubal Harshaw. Humor needn't be as dark as you'd have us believe.
There are a few problems here. 1) You don't understand the concept of equality. 2) You don't see anything wrong with your behavior.
Here's a hint: Men don't like your shitty attitude any more than women do. Women are just more likely to call you out than the other beta males you abuse.