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Linux Kernel Dev Sarah Sharp Quits, Citing 'Brutal' Communications Style
JG0LD writes: A prominent Linux kernel developer announced today in a blog post that she would step down from her direct work in the kernel community. “My current work on userspace graphics enabling may require me to send an occasional quirks kernel patch, but I know I will spend at least a day dreading the potential toxic background radiation of interacting with the kernel community before I send anything,” Sharp wrote. Back in July, 2013 Sarah made a push to make the Linux Kernel Development Mailing List a more civil place.
Can't take it? Go! -- No problem.
A man can be blunt to another man and tell him "You're being a fuckwad. Don't do this." Hell, bitter sports rivals will go for a beer afterwards. The "trash talk" is par for the course and men think nothing of it.
A woman will perceive as the man not being "sensitive."
So who's right?
Both. Men need to learn to communicate _differently_ with women and consider their feelings. And women need to learn not to take everything so fucking personal. /Oblg joke. "Can you show me a woman who doesn't take everything personal? No, because you'd be left with a man!" (With apologies to Jack Nicholson in "As good as it gets.")
>> I know I will spend at least a day dreading the potential toxic background radiation of interacting with the kernel community before I send anything
Grammar Nazis? Your move.
This is one of those things that needs context.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
Everyone who gets involved in kernel development (male, female or other) finds the whole process utterly brutal and gets the shit kicked out of them at some stage. While not all that nice sometimes it at least does ensure that ideas and code passes the mustard.
The link from "back in July" was from 2013, and Sarah hasn't made a kernel contribution in 18 months. She's moved on to other projects, and I wish her the best of luck.
Grammatically, it's fine.
The phrasing is not entirely sensible and could be improved, though.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
in the *very* early days (0.9x), and back then Linus never seemed like much of a dick, but then again, at the time he was still a student. Even met him face-to-face a couple of times. I stepped away due to the huge time commitments required by my regular job, not because of any issues I had with anyone.
The stories I hear leave me scratching my head. This isn't the Linus I knew back in the day. I guess all the fame and all of that must have gone to his head.
July... 2013. So it's been two years.
Reminds me of the old phrase about being able to dish it out all day but not being able to take it for one second.
Kind of reminds me of the whole Ellen Pao debacle where she accused people who worked with -- at a VC firm -- of being complete assholes. And she was right about that part. However, she lost the case because the facts showed that she was one of the biggest assholes in the whole place so she might as well have sued herself.
AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
Phrasing is a window into a person's thought process though.
...What that means is they are privileging the emotional needs of other Linux kernel developers (to release their frustrations on others, to be blunt, rude, or curse to blow off steam) over my own emotional needs (the need to be respected as a person, to not receive verbal or emotional abuse). There’s an awful power dynamic there that favors the established maintainer over basic human decency....
That shows a complete lack of professional respect on the part of those who bully others by demanding the environment be so disrespectful.
.
In a professional environment, you criticize the work, not the person. Period.
Those who say that such bullying is par for the course are more part of the problem than part of the solution.
This isn't empowering women. This is arguing that they are weaker than men far more profoundly than any MRA red piller gamer gater misogynist could ever hope to accomplish.
Open source developers are the assholes that produce the shit.
I've read through the lists, and I see a lot of guys insulting each other. You know what? Guys insult each other. It's how we communicate, it's how we bond. It's also brutally honest and helps to enforce the environment that makes for good IT - namely
A woman inserting themselves into that environment should expect to be treated like just another guy.
Oh, and read this:
http://www.computerworld.com/a...
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
Considering that this is communication we're supposedly talking about; everything is orthogonal except its effectiveness... and considering this isn't a complaint relating to OS/2, I daresay the answer is self-evident.
I use a real operating system like NetBSD, so who cares? Linux is a piece of shit
It took a hell of a lot of digging, but it seems to have started with this thread, way back in 2013.
Now, I'm all for professional communication, and emails can be easy to misinterpret, but this looks like a bit of an over-reaction. Someone commented that they send patches to Greg KH because Linus scares him, but added a winkey smiley afterwards, i.e. not really all that scary. Then Linus made a joke about Greg being big and squishing people that may or may not be playful or insulting, without knowing much about the relationship between these guys it's hard to say. Squish is hardly a word you use when you're really angry though.
And then Linus and Ingo gently tick off Greg and says he should be tougher, Linus says Greg is acting like a "door mat" and says "You may need to learn to say no to people". Ingo says "be frank with contributors and sometimes swear a bit". Probably this discussion would be held off list in a more traditional corporate environment to avoid embarrassing Greg (though "you are too nice" is not that embarrassing), but he takes it in his stride and agrees to be tougher.
OK, so far, just another day in open source land? Well, then Sarah Sharp flies off the handle and says:
What the heck? The only thing she could be referring to this thread so far has been Linus talking about Greg being a giant who might "squish you without even noticing". Nobody could seriously interpret that as advocating for violence unless you were so unbelievably literal you'd be unable to handle ordinary conversations.
And then there's the conflation of "verbal abuse" with "violence". These are two words that mean very different things. And finally the assertion that by trying to make jokes (perhaps not very well), Linus and Ingo were being unprofessional. Not surprisingly, Linus had a problem with this claim.
Now I don't know, probably this could have been avoided if the discussion with Greg had been private. But it seems Sharp would have let rip at some other point if someone else made an off-colour joke. I can believe LKML is a tough environment, but this isn't the best evidence possible. Perhaps there have been other incidents, but as Sharp doesn't list any, it's hard to say.
It seems that "being an abrasive asshole" is the new "friendly".
Yeah, I think it sucks, and I see more and more of this every day.
Guess what folks....being a dismissive asshole to friends and co-workers doesn't make you cool. It makes you a dismissive asshole .
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
"Linux NEVER apologizes!" - Linus Torvalds
Actually it's mostly only feminists who argue that women are weaker than men, hence all the grants, special support, womens groups, damselling, demands for even shorter prison sentences than they already get and so on. I'm guessing from this woman's language and unhealthy fixation on power dynamics that she's a feminist, so in ways you're right. Not many ways mind you.
I stopped contributing to the Linux kernel in like 1995 because the environment even then was too toxic. With the same sort of 'apologist' rhetoric that we hear today. In the 20 years I've been contributing to FreeBSD, I've still yet to accumulate as much toxin as was present in the 12 months or so I tried contributing minor things to Linux.
You're the best bro ever.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Am I the only one who agrees with her? Look, it's one thing for freedom of speech but the toxic environment that is kernel-space is why so many of us avoid it. If I wanted to be yelled at, I would have joined the military. I understand calling someone out on something that's wrong, but there's a way to do it without causing the other person to go slit his/her wrists over it.
Except that she didn't say she's quitting because she's a woman. That's just your projection.
In reality, plenty of men would want out of that toxic rude abusive environment too. I'm a man and I wouldn't stay in a team like that.
There are thousands of authors for each Linux release (I was one of them a couple of times).
A random lady stops being involved and feels that it is newsworthy ?
I guess it was even part of her paying job.
Come on !
I wonder what misusing lmgtfy.com tells us about a person.
I was curious and did some research on this. I know Linus and some of the other guys can be a lot to take. However, after reading a lot of the posts Sarah made complaining about people and things, I started to get the feeling she's attention seeking and disruptive. She constantly brings up gender in irrelevant ways and appears to be the self styled 'girl kernel developer'. She also punches below the belt. For example:
"*Snort*. Perhaps we haven't interacted very often, but I have never seen you be nice in person at KS. Well, there was that one time you came to me and very quietly explained you had a problem with your USB 3.0 ports, but you came off as "scared to talk to a girl kernel developer" more than "I'm trying to be polite"."
Linus tends to be very direct, as are a lot of important open source communities. The critical people are very busy and get frustrated when people display various kinds of incompetence. In fact, it appears to me that they were treating Sarah very gently precisely *because* she was a girl. Or maybe it was the intel.com email adress -- who knows.
I dunno.... If this is how things are being conducted on the developer lists, I think the woman has a valid complaint/point.
It's one thing to talk trash to each other when you're playing competitive sports against each other. (And I'm willing to bet women do the same thing when playing tennis, basketball or other womens' sports?)
But software development should be a little bit more professional in nature. I'm more of a sysadmin than a software coder myself, but I'd probably take it personally, too, if every time I worked hard to contribute something to a development project, people turned around and told me I was a "fuckwad" for having the idea and so on.
I mean, why bother contributing at all if everyone else involved comes across like they're that unappreciative of my efforts? I'm not going to "take it personally" in the sense it makes me question my ability to code and I consider switching careers .... but I'd definitely think about putting my efforts into other projects.
The real issue is that when you work with others and the others wont follow the rules after being told repeatedly what needs to be done then the attitude is going to flow. If you have told someone over and over how to do something and they won't do it then you scream and belittle them until they either start doing what was told to them or they can quit. Mr. Torvalds doesn't get angry for no reason. It is ALWAYS because of some idiot, err person, not following the rules. Being a woman or man has not a damn thing to do with it. Sometimes people don't realize how hot the kitchen is until they walk in. Astronauts have to shit in a bag but you don't hear them bitching about it on NASA. This fucking PC crap has about reached its limits
This isn't empowering women. This is arguing that they are weaker than men far more profoundly than any MRA red piller gamer gater misogynist could ever hope to accomplish.
Oh, I took it as her just being smarter than the average guy on LKML. "Fuck you people, I don't need your toxic ego-masterbating bullshit - I got other things I can do with my life."
More men on LKML could stand to be as self-aware, intolerant of bad behavior, and practice basic goodness.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Who are simultaneously too thin-skinned to handle a discussion that isn't completely sanitized for their protection. Who's the one who wants a double standard here?
Why should software development "be a little bit more professional"?
Rather than view it in terms of "the right way" versus "the wrong way", how about we agree that on average men PREFER a certain communication style that is different from women's average preferred communication style.
It's an old-fashioned "culture conflict" type of problem.
These are mostly volunteers in this case such that we cannot simply slap a discrimination lawsuit on them to force them to talk "professionally".
Maybe someone can offer special classes to learn how to sling "dude crap" with the best of them. I've known women who perfected the art. They can be fun to be around, but I wouldn't want to date them.
As an anecdote, I was arguing with one lady about a signature on a document. "I don't care how it's signed, I'll sign it with my damned wanker if I have to!".
"Ah, you mean short-hand!", she replied.
Table-ized A.I.
It is a fantasy.
If you are so irreplaceable that your superiors need to be nice to you... then they will be nice. To you.
To anyone not so shielded... unlikely.
Time to time I try to fix bug in open source projects I use, including the Linux kernel. Compared to 15 years ago, it's now an extremely difficult task. Most of the time there is no reaction at all, even for critical bugs. When there is a reaction it's usually to deny the analysis and pretend that the problem is into an other layer (so an other maintainer) without giving any explanation. There is also the other method of perpetually demanding more and more information, and when all are there, the thread end without response. Sending patch is a nightmare, even if the code is signed-off by some, there is extremists that always complain on futile details in comments, asking to redact very long commit comment for a few very simple and obvious change in a few lines. And if after 3 to 4 weeks the patch go right, it is usually just ignored.
Open Source is an effective model when used by maintainers that take care of the users. Today there is too many maintainers that are at this position payed by companies, making then acting for the company only. The fact that the project is open source is for this kind of maintainers just a opportunity to show there ego. There view contribution as a open contest between developers for there role. Real users that want to contribute only have basic knowledge and need support to make a patch, not to be destroyed for weeks in there voluntary effort trying to fix something.
That I'm lazy and don't feel like trimming all the crap out of a link that Google shoves up our asses. Interpret that 'phrasing' as you like.
I read it again to be sure, but her only mention of women as a group was when she talked about the existence of the FOSS Outreach Program for Women.
I think the main point of her blog post was to suggest that people communicate civilly in the Linux community. I'm sure that there are plenty of men who agree. How is this an argument that women are weak?
Mitt Romney once used the phrase "knock some heads together" in a debate regarding how he'd ensure some gov't task was done right. I don't remember the typical pundits or press taking notice of that statement. Contrast the reaction with "binders full of women".
Table-ized A.I.
she should feel proud knowing she was treated like "one of the boys". Sadly, she decided instead to create a hugbox. And didn't get her way. I don't think she will be missed, she and people like her are toxic.
This isn't empowering women. This is arguing that they are weaker than men far more profoundly than any MRA red piller gamer gater misogynist could ever hope to accomplish.
Then why is the woman the only one strong enough to stand up publicly?
I stole this Sig
fucking Pussy!
Here is what matters: /thread
http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137391223711946&w=2
then grow some balls and have a spine.
And don't get your panties in a twist when they treat you as one of the guys... it will be rough, but *you knew that going in*.
Next thing that will happen is some female developer gets treated super politely, and then she complains about inequality...
It's a no-win.
Note how she never makes it a gender issue. It's never "kernel developers should be nicer to women", it's "kernel developers should be nicer to other human beings". She is clear that on technical matters being blunt is fine, but backing it up with some subtle homophobia or random insults is not something she wants to put up with. Frankly, neither do it, and I'm male.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Projection? You're denying the elephant in the room. Rather than dig up all the feminist teeth gnashing over this when it was news two years ago, let's just get it from the filly's mouth:
Two questions later...
Oh dear, gender essentialism... tsk tsk. There's nothing preventing women from learning and appreciating this "brogrammer culture". Women have done it forever, until feminist called them "cool girls" and started shaming them.
There is a place for profanity laced arguments. There are times when the cluebat need to be applied. They should be the exception and preferably done in private. The problem comes when every discussion quickly devolves into name calling and profanity. It has the following effects;
1. Less discussion as people drop out as vitriol ensues.
2. Fewer participants as people never come back.
3. Distraction from the real subject. It becomes an insult contest rather than a discussion.
4. Fewer discussions as many don't want to start arguments.
In the end it created smaller communities and worse code. Just because you can bully someone into agreeing does not make you right; just a more effective bully.
Just because a woman has brought it up does not make it a gender issue. In the end this is not a man or woman issue it is a civility issue.
To all those who say "women should get thicker skins and not take things personally" I say "certain men should stop equating being right with their worth/masculinity or go back to the cave where they belong".
Yes, because hormones, primary and secondary sexual characteristics, differences in nutrition, intuition, metabolism, ways of thinking, reflexes, strength, flexibility, personal dress, perception of customers and co-workers and workers lower and higher on the totem pole and the product and process(es) at hand, all personal interests that impact business thinking, not to mention (he mentioned) instinct and the male-female polarization evolution has so diligently implanted in healthy human beings, completely disappear (by magic, obviously) when one is a professional. Oh wait, I meant, "when one has been knocked out by a severe impact to the skull." And by "magic", I meant "brain function has been suspended." And by "professional", I mean SJW. Or "moron." No, actually both.
Wow, that was fun. :)
Takeaway: Of course women should be treated differently than men. Because, you know, they're... different. I'm so sorry you haven't noticed that yet. Take my word for it, though. Those differences can be valuable to everyone, if we stop this absurd pretense that we're all square pegs made from the same Styrofoam. Not that there's much chance of that happening.
I have zero problem with a woman who has/earns more money than me, who is smarter than me, who wants to dress and act as a guy or like a classic pinup, etc. Nor do I have a problem being polite to them, respecting the boundaries they set, if they do that, including them in my verbal horseplay (or not) to whatever degree they seem to be comfortable with, for whatever reason that may be. Same thing for the fellows. And I don't give the south end of a northbound rat what someone's sexual preferences are, or what they say, relate, or joke about, sexually speaking, until/unless I am sexually involved with them myself. What I have a problem with is people like you, who try to pretend that we're all the same. We're not. Not only are men not the same as women, men are not the same as other men, and women are not the same as other women. Any drive to present the situation as otherwise is an act of pure disruptive idiocy of real benefit only to lawyers. Should we all respect each other and try to work together smoothly and productively and for everyone's best outcome? Sure. Of course. Should we pretend we're all the same and create cookie-cutter uniform behavior to match? No. Fuck no.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Torvalds tried to take the conversation private, Sharp choose to make it public again ..
"The argument over whether such language is appropriate then moved off-list, with Torvalds trying to make the conversation private and Sharp making it public again. "Oh, FFS, I [was] just called out on private email for 'playing the victim card,'" arstechnica.com
"I'm *also* not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords" Torvalds
Sometimes you need to be an asshole to those who just don't get it after being told otherwise several times before.
Would this be news if it were Samuel Sharp posting this and quitting?
She probably left saying "Ah fork it!"
Given that FreeBSD already has been neutered by a CoC due to similarly written complaints, this doesn't sound too different from a spurned SJW.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
The other day I was playing doubles tennis with some guy friends and one of them joked about something that we thought was funny, but the guy on the receiving end of that joke got angry, smashed his racquet and walked off the court. The rest of us were left puzzled. In my mind, LKML is a bit like that. Some people are too sensitive to be in that community and they probably should not be part of it.
This lady is probably a fine engineer, but perhaps too sensitive for LKML.
OH NO DA GOOBERGAYT
This is an interesting conflict. A group of people find the LKML culture to be toxic to such an extent that they decide to stop participating in it. The question is: should the LKML culture change to accommodate them?
I don't see any easy answers. Many people agree that Casablanca was a great film. At the time it was being made, the people involved thought it was just another film. We don't know what magic ingredients caused that film to be great. There is no known recipe to reproduce that greatness.
The Intel culture has produced some fabulous things. It has been at the forefront of exponential growth in digital electronics for decades. But there are many things that culture is not good at creating. Operating systems that run on their hardware, for example. Likewise, Google bought Motorola Mobility in 2011 but ended up selling it at a loss three years later. The Google culture was really good at many things but making smartphones was not one of them.
The Linux kernel is unique and like the movie Casablanca we just don't know what combination of elements caused it to be so great. We have no recipe for making another OS like Linux. This is not from lack of trying. The question is: should we try to change the culture on LKML in order to make it appear less toxic to a group of people? Are the parts of the culture that seem toxic to some people part of the magic that has made Linux so successful? We just don't know.
If I was king of the world and everyone ultimately answered to me then I would let Linus decide if he wants to change the LKML or not. I don't think anyone knows why the LKML consistently make good kernels the same way Intel consistently makes good hardware. The person who knows it best is Linus. I would trust his gut instinct of what to do about changing the culture he has created. If I was forced to decide then I would tell him to keep doing what he has been doing because, for me, the quality of the kernel is far more important than a group of people finding the LKML culture toxic.
Of course there has to be a line drawn somewhere. For example if the LKML required ritual human sacrifices, that would be totally unacceptable. Any forms of physical violence would be unacceptable, even forms of hate speech would be unacceptable. For me, a group of people who can't work with the kernel because they find the environment toxic does not cross the line. If it was a large fraction of the developers then it would be a problem. If I saw instances that were particularly egregious then that would be a problem too.
There are many work environments that people would find much more toxic than the LKML. Commercial fishing is one obvious example. I think the vast majority of people (at least from the first world) would find working as a commercial fisherman to be toxic, intolerable, and probably impossible. This does not necessarily mean commercial fishing needs to change in order have a less toxic work environment. The obvious solution has already been implemented: if you don't want to be a commercial fisherman then don't be one.
Perhaps the same obvious solution has been found here was well. I think it is good that this issue is brought up every now and then. It gives Linus a chance to see if he thinks the LKML culture needs to change. But I don't see any reason for the LKML to be all inclusive. I think it would be fine if it were a mostly all whiteboys club (I don't know if it is) as long as there is no discrimination based on gender or race instead of actions. If it works and you don't know how or why it works then don't fix it.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
feminist bullshitter detected
Who's the one that has to deal with shitty code making it into production? If I was managing and all kinds of bad commits were attempting to be published, I'd get tired of incompetence too!
Girl power! Girls are tough, girls can take it, I'm a girl who got into a boys club and eeeeeeeeeeeewwwwww! they're ICKY! They don't emote with each-other like girls!
I'm sorry, but this garbage has been spreading through western culture where most technological advances were driven by men, who often had knock-down-drag-out blistering verbal fights in board rooms, offices, labs, engineering bull pens, etc. One of the reasons western tech arose as it did is that bad ideas were often very brutally shot-down by other members of teams when they were floated. The over-the-top criticism served a purpose: it HURT the ego enough that the person offering them learned a lesson (think it through more and be better armed with facts and numbers before floating the next one). When men on such teams are encouraged to "go easy" on the girls in the room, bad ideas slip through. It took ten years to put a man on the moon in the sixties; now we have lots of women in engineering, power points everywhere, HR rulebooks the size of Webster's dictionary, speech codes, harrassment policies, etc...... and we cannot put a chimp into orbit. Connection? Possibly. Perhaps we have spent far too much time accommodating social sensitivities and not enough doing the actual hard work which involved hard numbers, hard realities, and demands brutal criticism of bad ideas.
Is this stuff NICE? Nope. Is it friendly and civil? Nope. There are plenty of men who also cannot handle it. But if you cannot take it and then go out for a beer and a burger with the person who clobbered you, then perhaps you are not truly suited to the path you are supposedly equally equipped to trod. There ARE women who are perfectly capable of operating in this environment (so don't cheat and whine that this is "anti-woman").
Women entering such fields need to be mature enough to treat this like a foreign country/culture and take it on its own terms. It you are the sort who cannot adapt to a foreign culture and would feel brutalized by the people in that culture, then perhaps you ought to consider vacationing/living/working in a different one. Same thing here. NO culture likes it, or complies, when an outsider enters it and then demands that it be changed to suit the new arrival - it's not just male engineers/nerd/geeks/programmers with that attitude. If men enter a woman-dominated field, is it likely that THEY will be allowed to force all the ladies to change and behave like men, or is this a one-way-door thing? If, on the other hand, you excel in foreign cultures and enjoy participating in them, then by all means do enter and participate - you will be welcomed and appreciated all the more for fitting-in rather than demanding everybody change to suit you.
There have been "abuse" problems on the internet since before it existed, when bulletin board servers were common. There is just something about being on a remote keyboard or microphone that brings out the absolute worst in a lot of people. Trash talking gamers, bigots, racists, stark raving lunatics -- they're all "wired".
You can complain about it all you like, but unless you're going to censor the shit out of every forum, website, and mailing list in existence, you are going to be faced with it. The same way you're going to be faced with such people in real life.
Sadly, a lot of people would rather whinge and whine about their "rights" and their "feelings" rather than face up to reality. They live in a dream world of kittens, unicorns, and rainbows that exhibits a completely and totally unrealistic expectation of what society is or should be.
Can't handle the pressure? Leave -- which she is doing. But posting a long-winded rant about why you're leaving is just childish, selfish, "pity poor me" bullshit. Everyone already knows it's going on; they don't give a flying fuck about your hurt feelings over anyone else's (often including their own.)
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
If a male developer was subject to perceived verbal abuse, he would have taken it up with the individuals in private. If a female developer perceives same, she can't wait to blast it out to the sisterhood. Who can find nothing better to do than attend tech conferences desperately in search of sexual harassment they can write about. If she had any common sense she would have paused before bring controversy to the LKML. Sometimes you would wish that certain people weren't on your side.
Linux kernel civility discussion
I have worked in "brutal" environment for a decade. It's that way because there are millions at stake every day, every decision, it's realtime. Yes, one minor screw up can cost millions to fix. I can tell you this though, the ONLY time it's brutal is when you screw up/could have done something better.
I have read her blog. She is burnt out. She is trying to do too many things. She's not focused. She didn't even get into her personal life of which could be adding countless other issues. Looking at her photo no doubt her biological clock is ticking as well. She had to be submitting sub-par work that everyone there knows she can do better based on her past work. They know how capable she is and the quality of work she can produce, otherwise they would have kicked her off the team years ago. They let her know that her submissions where suffering and that they don't have time to fix her screw-ups when she is fully capable of doing it herself.
She has no one but herself to blame, and I can almost guarantee you her poor performance started when she started taking on all of the other responsibilities. Instead of assessing why her work is suffering she blames the people she is working with? They don't care that you are/were a board member, a coordinator, or any other of the countless titles. They want to know that they can trust your code isn't going to break something else and/or follow current standards.
To be blunt, she wasn't getting the job done anymore. In any profession that's not a good thing. In most professions she would have been fired years ago. And to top it off she is going to change everyone she works with so they can conform to her "emotional needs".
Here's a thought for all of you that disagree, over the next week/month complain to everyone at your company that they are not being nice enough to you and make written recommendations on how they should change their behavior. Then come up with a way to tell the CEO, president, VPs, and board members how things really should be run at the company. Be sure to put that in writing too, all the while don't get your work done, and if you happen to get something done be sure is half-assed. Oh and be sure to ask for time off because you are really really committed to all of these other organizations.
She is having a mental breakdown, deal with it, don't blame others.
I'm so sorry to hear her leaving. *NOT*
Girls in IT, in my experience is always a bust.
Not because they are inept, or incapable.
But let's face it. IT is like drag racing.
Girl's don't do it. It's always the guys hanging around the engines, in the carburetors, and in the grease.
It's not a sexist thing. It's just the way it is.
The Internet yawns
A lot of very bright but socially challenged folks in the online and developer world need to do a lot of growing up. It has nothing to do with "radical honesty". It has to do with spewing one's own inability to contain little frustrations out upon others. Letting loose and attacking is not honest communication. It is thoughtless treatment of others. The problem is not that the recipient is weak or can't play the game. The problem is that people think it is fine that they say anything, no matter how abusive, to anyone, and that there are no obligations to the rest of humanity.
Don't step on the baby.
I can read between the lines just fine. She may *say* "be nicer to other human beings" but what she *means* is "be nicer to ME because I'm a special flower."
Fuck that. The kernel mailing list isn't a "safe space" where everyone is expected to be nice to each other, it's a place to get work done. If your work is gay shit that should never have been submitted, then you should fucking well be told that. Deal with it or get the fuck out. She chose "get the fuck out" but because she's a whiny cunt, apparently she's decided to be a bitch about it too.
There's nothing wrong with the kernel mailing list. There's something wrong with HER having skin that's way too thin to deal with professionals judging people's work on professional standards.
I'd just say "fuck her", but she's probably an ugly bitch so I'll just settle for "go away".
Let him curse on his island..
...in the adjacent thread on the favorite nerd TV show.
We code monkeys argue, curse, bitch and moan over our code. But it's just the code, it's not personal.
If she can't handle what equates to "rough housing", which the competitiveness and debates that ignore political correctness, nobody is going to debate a topic politely, i.e " you are wrong good sir...may I offer a gentlemanly rebuttal pip pip" then she definitely needs to 'Git' out of the mix.
It's organized chaos and from that chaos a better product forms.
Come to the FreeBSD team, I am sure they would love to have a talented programmer.
cisgender
Triggered.
Sticks and stones can break your bones, but words can do more permanent damage. Stockholm syndrome, being groomed, being broken down and molded, these are all this that can be achieved by words alone. Maybe Sarah took these things to heart and was incompatible with that environment, and it's healthy for her to express that. Nobody is expecting everything to change over one individual but she is not out of line in speaking her mind.
Twinstiq, game news
Every situation is a bit different. Do I prefer civility and kindness? Absolutely. What happens when you take advantage of my good nature? I really don't have a choice but to change tactics. Probably not the first time, but I'll let you know I won't tolerate it again. Have I been accused of being a bully because someone only heard a more abrasive part of the conversation? Absolutely again. The funny thing is that I rarely, if ever, see those people jumping on the chopping block. People that jump in to help the screw up on their own time happens in the movies, but we don't live in movies.
As an example, iff you are a manager and you are working 10 extra hours a week because one of your people is continually messing up, for how long will you continue to be kind? Your personal life relationships start to suffer because of this person? How about when the rest of your team is also putting in 10 extra hours a week because the person is a real mess? Your boss is chewing your ass daily because you are late with a deliverable? The other 20 people on the team are upset because they can't seem to go forward. Nobody can get frustrated and tell that person causing issues to STFU, even if they attempt to pass the blame? Everyone needs to be kind to their "feelings" even though they are making a job miserable for many people?
TFA has nothing to do with bullying, it's about trying to get people to do what needs to be done. I'll add it's about unrealistic expectations where people don't vent in the workplace (or at least do not vent the same way as you). You may not think that the Kernel is a big deal, but it's Linus's whole life. He built it from scratch and makes his livelihood from the project. You can't really compare his perspective with an argument with a co-worker. It's more like seeing a master architect yell at a welder for fucking up a seam and not fixing it after being asked to fix it. Shit happens.
*steps off the soap box*
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Well if she can't help herself, this is the winning move.
Is Linux successful? Debatable. It has success in limited uses,
These limited uses being "pretty much everything outside the desktop".
Servers, embed, high performance computing clusters, smartphones, robots, home appliances, etc.
And new uses still pop up on a regular basis.
Hardly a niche.
Though you probably are proud of explicitely using a non-Linux OS on your computer (Mac OS X ? Windows ?), fact is that you probably interact with a dozen of Linux powered device each day without noticing.
Linus accomplished a lot, but what groundbreaking thing has he done in the last 20 years?
Yeah, the guy has done nothing more that the Linux kernel in he's life. He's a one trick poney.
It's not like he would be ablto to do anything else like starting a distributed source control management (DSCM) that in practice almost replace any other SCM.
Oh, wait...
Without Linus to create Git, you probably wouldn't have had communities like GitHub emerge nowadays (or they would have tried to built on much less optimal technology. Github is born out of the specific feature that with git, forks/merges/rebases are cheap - a specific feature that Linus needed to build in order to be able to use git for the kernel work).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
When did MRA become a dirty word? Are there people who don't believe that men should have rights too?
When I submitted a bug fix, the communication was terse, almost non-existent even. I had heard tales of hostility. I expected bickering. I was fully prepared to be told to RTFM, redo my work and resubmit it in the right place next time. But none of that happened. The patch was reviewed and accepted without a hitch on the first try. I don't know what they could have done to make it a more pleasant process.
My current work on userspace graphics enabling may require me to send an occasional quirks kernel patch, but I know I will spend at least a day dreading the potential toxic background radiation of interacting with the kernel community before I send anything
My wife and I did some extensive work to learn how to avoid expressing disrespect to each other.
One day I complained to her that she'd made me swim in a sea of toxic disrespectful judgments all day.
What I learned from the professionals was that using hyperbolic labels like "toxic" is also disrespectful. It's better to just stick to noting that you felt disrespected by a particular statement or statements until the message gets across - assuming the other side is working on learning to avoid disrespect. If they aren't, you identify the disrespect for them, notify them you aren't going to tolerate it any more, and then enforce boundaries to make sure you aren't subjected to it any more.
Another thing I learned is that people who are in an abusive relationship (including disrespect) tend to become abusers themselves.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
she could no longer work within a developer culture that required overworked maintainers to be rude and brusque in order to get the job done
Those with the experience and brains to actually push patches up to the Linux Kernel are truly talented. Male or female or trans or whatever, why the FUCK are the best in this industry 'overworked', outsourced, treated (and paid) like disposable cogs? What percentage of people in this world have both the brains and knowledge to contribute to a complex kernel that allows thousands of corporations to make hundreds of billions a year in profits?
Yes Yes - Unions are the evil, and that $100K you're making in SF or NYC (with $4k /month apartments) at 26 years old is awesome. But did you know that in ten years, those sociology and women's studies majors who went into HR will be making as much as you, but won't be competing with third world scabs.
It's our fault. After 10 years in this business, I'm actively looking for another gig as far away from IT / software as I can. Not because of the work (which I love), but because my American cohorts in software / IT are pussies who will not stand up to their MBA overlords, will happily train their Indian replacements, and will keep their heads down and mouths shut until they're working 70 hours a week for minimum wage.
I don't give a shit what we call it - union, association, group - whatever. Just stop allowing the system to take advantage of us.
Just sayin'.
Technical expertise is a justification for hostile behavior. Just reading the statement shows how obviously idiotic it is. Just imagine that this was operational in other situations: your auto mechanic, pharmacist, grocery checkout clerk, all insulted you because you didn't know as much as they do about their work. This actually happens with police, where they can arbitrarily make a mountain out of a molehill, or vice versa, and this is one of the reasons we are seeing so much upheaval now that it's ending up on video.
Technical issues should be discussed using emotional language. Emotional language is the opposite of rational discussion, and it makes incorrect reasoning much more likely. Why engage in behavior that leads to less trustworthy results?
The person who prevails in an emotional argument has the best technical answer. Again, this is completely ridiculous. Sometimes there is no clear best solution. If the ultimate decision is based on the ability to prevail in an emotionally based environment, then the outcome is biased towards argument skill and away from technical issues. Clearly there is no correlation between being able to win an argument and being technically correct.
It's programming culture, get used to it. That's a circular argument that can be used to justify any bad behavior: racial discrimination, ethnic cleansing, rape, religious violence, by substituting something else for "programming". At best it could be construed as an unreasoned defense of the status quo in software development. Given how notorious software is for being late, over budget, bug ridden, incomplete or nondeliverable, stating that programming culture is OK is to set the bar really really low.
I personally have seen vast amounts of time wasted in useless argument. It's routine to see people fight over meaningless points because nobody was willing to back down. I've seen men almost come to blows. I have seen projects crippled because everyone was forced to take sides. There are times when there is actually technical agreement, but the fight continued anyway. I have wasted years of work time because of this kind of behavior during my career.
So what'sreally going on here? You have a bunch of guys who claim to be guided by technical excellence who are defending a culture guided by irrational emotional behavior that often delivers bad results.
There is an obvious answer: it's not really about the technology, it's about unbounded ego. The real goal is power and personal dominance. Coding is just an excuse.
This conclusion is supported by looking at the common attitude in the supportors of a culture of hostility. According to them, they are each and every one the best programmer in the room, they never make mistakes, they win by their coding skill and ability to browbeat their inferiors, and my implication they are respected and feared by their co-workers. Now ask yourself: how likely is that all these guys are that level of uber-geek? The only reasonable answer is that there is a lot of self delusion going on here. If the culture of hostility worked with all those manly programmers out there, one would assume that there would generally be a lot better software out in the world. Somehow that just doesn't seem to be happening.
Why is Snark Required?
I didn't read every post she ever made. I read a bunch of the 2013 thread. Her position there is completely reasonable. Linus' POV is reasonable too. He doesn't want to bother with being nice. He's doing his thing and plenty successful. And she's giving up because she's ineffective at making the difference she cares about. That's a reasonable response. It looks like she thinks she's failed and that really sucks for her. Apparently, "you should be blunt, not offensive" doesn't hold much sway with these kernel guys.
The thing is that at the end of the day, we make this stuff to make our lives better and have fun. If you let yourself put someone down while you're doing your special thing, then you're throwing away opportunities and making everyone involved a little deader. No one is born with this wisdom. It takes reflection and effort to really get it. It took me a long time to figure this out and I'm going to spend the rest of my life bumbling thru the business of living it.
When people (like Linus) lash out at someone else, we do it because it's really deeply built-in turf-defending, domination-style interaction. It's totally natural. We all are hardwired to do it. And it's not the only option. Once you truly realize and train yourself to remember and honor that the cost outweighs the benefits, that kind of behavior mostly just goes away. "Should" gets you just about nowhere. No one ever lived their life well because they should. They do it because they grok the way that really works for them and makes their lives exciting and fulfilling. (NB: putting someone down can be a release, and it can make you feel safe or tough, but it's not what makes you feel good about life--because guess what: if you keep calling everyone an idiot, you find yourself surrounded by idiots.)
Kernel hackers are amazing people. I'm so glad that they give us this stuff and I love what they do. They're great the way they are. We're all born jerks and it's going to come out sometimes, and it's really not a problem. Life goes on, jerks and all. What's exciting is that there's an opportunity to figure out the thing where you recognize what's great in people. You recognize that you get to choose the way want to be and there's so much more value in living life on those terms than imagining that you have to tell your collaborators that they're stupid.
The good news is: either way, hey, free kernel!
The Linux USB 3.0 host controller driver sucks. Apparently she was responsible for it. Maybe somebody else can now fix it.
Of course, those with weaker skills will always find a highly sophisticated environment "brutal". No surprise there. And yes, some people will use language that looks personal and insulting, when it is merely meant to be clear. The predecessors of the aberration that is now "political correctness" make it often difficult to do otherwise. I do however not see the problem with that. Being told, for example, that you lack the insight at this time to solve a specific problem, does not become less hurtful if expressed politely. It does need to be said though.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Welcoming Sarah Sharp and Selena Deckelmann to our [ADA Initiative] advisory board!
smilies are for reetards
I'm a developer on a medium-sized open source project and the development discussion is heavily influenced by the same handful of assholes. They're all friends, they all work in similar fields, and they all feel like self-appointed experts, leading to them backing each other up on every debate. They had their period of doing solid development years ago and now only contribute the odd patch here or there. Now they just shit on the rest of the team incessantly.
The problem is that we've had consistently weak leadership. Nobody wants to stand up to senior devs and tell them to shape up or get out. Compounding this, one of our best-loved devs had a brief stint as moderator and fully embraced these assholes, so they have his unofficial seal of approval. He's not one of them, but he's certainly blind to their influence. Going against them means going against him, and that's a no-no.
The activities of these assholes has really hampered development because they scare away the new talent, piss off the existing talent, and they do no real work that they used to as the old talent. They're essentially worthless, but a casual read of our mailing list shows that they weigh in on nearly every subject. They seem to be important but they've been irrelevant for a little under a decade now.
So whomever is in charge of the LKML isn't doing their job. Good leadership should lead to civil discussions, and the abrasive assholes should be kicked out PROMPTLY. I've seen what happens when we all ignore the problem and let it happen, and it ruins everything. I think Torvalds is great but his style of shitting on people was fuel to the fire to prompt other people to continue that kind of inappropriate behavior.
I'd say the loss of civility is a clear indicator of when a project has reached a turning point for the worst.
Female dev's outburst against Torvalds was planned
smilies are for reetards
How can anyone at a level where they can (and do) make contributions to the Linux kernel not know what they're getting themselves in to. This is like walking into a biker bar dressed like Richard Simmons and complaining that the Hell's Angels are looking at you funny and walking out upset. Torvalds is infamous for tearing people new assholes for submitting imperfect patches, among other things. He's probably not alone in that attitude. I'm not trying to justify or explain the attitude, but shit, people should know it exists by now and be prepared for it.
Buy your next Linux PC at eightvirtues.com
I didn't see any part Sarah's post that brought gender into this, and it immediately people started making assumptions of such.
It's nothing to do with women. I'm a guy and I have no interest in being part of these "communities" for precisely this reason. I also run an engineering team and if anyone came to work with this kind of attitude they'd be out so fast their head would spin, I don't give a flying crap how good they think they are.
It seems to me as if a lot of these OSS groups suffer from the same problem with self appointed Masters of the Universe as Wikipedia.
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
Sarah is far from the only talented kernel dev to leave because it just stops being fun. And competes with other projects with a healthier culture. Just in case anybody claims that the usual toxic waste is actually the best and fastest way to develop the kernel, consider that Linux still has crappy real time response, all you need to do is start a buch of glgears, then copy a big file to see that. And simple file copies still tend to page out the application code you're running. And the kernel is way bloatier than necessary because the kind of people who enjoy cleaning that kind of crap up tend to get disparaged or ignored, and just walk away.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
not just for the question of how a contributor should be treated, but also for the question of how a leader should act.
If a leader is able to get world-beating results by being an asshole, then so be it. That leader has beaten the world, and I am not going to quibble with success. If a leader is an asshole and subpar output is the result, then by all means, tell them to treat their team differently.
Team dynamics are a complicated thing. You just don't fuck with a winning team. If they are using four letter words all the time and sacrificing live chickens at midnight, but the results are running circles around everyone else, I for one do not want them to stop, even if it would save a chicken's life.
At the same time, if they are doing all of these things and the results are uneven or poor, then by all means, change the behavior.
In this case, I'd say that the results of Linux kernel development speak for themselves. And if you just don't belong in the culture, then go somewhere else. If the culture starts to be counterproductive, give the world a great, big "I told you so!" and collect your profits on the book deal. But otherwise, to expect people to fuck up a successful operation for your feelings, for manners, or for high-minded ethics concerns is just bad juju. It's not lawyering or doctoring, ethical concerns are not front and center. It's software. The goal is that it works and works well, and in fact that's the highest ethical aspiration *of* software, given the many critical ways in which it gets used in today's world.
The value to the users is first. The comfort of the developers is second. If the culture and development process are working well, get the hell out of the way if you don't like them. As this person has done. So—problem solved.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Another sub-standard whining problem gone.
Now if we could just get Poettering to join her.
I am a geek, but I do own businesses which employ other geeks, on several continents
Now, as a geek I know what we geeks are capable of, good, as well as bad
And I can tell you this one thing - no matter which continents, geeks are geeks, and our 'geekiness' is 'toxic' to those with thinner skin - we geeks like to compete, and whether you like it or not, the thickness of our skin has become one of the 'legitimate competitive category'
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I am glad Sarah decided to look for projects that suit her personal and professional style better. I suspect though that the project is filled with developers who can never be their best in subdued, politically correct culture. When people care that much about code, they sometimes can not be impartial when they think something bad is being done to it.
To each their own. It's trivial to fork Linux kernel and work on your own interesting things, all the while benefiting from the work done by rude bastards who took it from a school break project to ubiquitous presence in the last two decades.
Note how she never makes it a gender issue. It's never "kernel developers should be nicer to women", it's "kernel developers should be nicer to other human beings". She is clear that on technical matters being blunt is fine, but backing it up with some subtle homophobia or random insults is not something she wants to put up with.
Men and women have different general preferences for communications style. She is arguing for the more feminine style of communications; she actually *did* make it a gender issue by claiming that people who attack her are misogynistic.
Frankly, neither do it, and I'm male.
You're in the minority on this - you do not talk for all males, or even most males, nor all females (or even most females). Why do you assume that your minority position is the correct one?
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
the mindless misogynists are crawling out of the woodwork. i'm sure Linus wouldn't be an arse to his Mother or wife or daughter.
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
Reminds one about a claim from a prison warden that had worked in both male and female prisons.
Said person claimed to prefer the male prison, because there problems were settled by a quick fight on the spot and that was it.
In the female prison a problem could linger for weeks or months as each party would try to tilt others to their side, until the whole place went up in proverbial flames.
Fuck the piece of shit kernel. Something breaks with every release.
... communication and wording are far from professional in the kernel team. Most core-devs would be dismissed on their style of interaction alone if applying to any serious professional elite position. Imagine applying for an astronauts programm with Linus style of talk for instance. He wouldn't stand a chance.
Of course, professionally, Linus is right just about 100% of the time and also can rightfully be super annoyed if some dimwit wastes his and everybody elses time, but the discourse in the kernel team is notably imature at a measurable pace. That includes Linus. Such, that it actually makes it into the news.
He'res an example, the first line a Linux quote from memory:
"You're so dumb you couldn't find your mothers tit as a baby"
vs.
"This is a very very stupid idea and A,B and C are blatant beginners mistakes and no one on the mainline will even attempt to merge it. I suggest you look into your stuff more thouroughly before sending out pull requests and perhaps redo your review process. This is the second time and if this happens again I'll ask X to take your branch out of branch YZ. Your wasting my and everyone elses time. Stop that. - EOM"
See? The second line is about the most shaming rundown you can get as a professional or elite kernel dev. It's actually more harsh then the first. ... But it is way more professional.
Bottom line:
I can totally see why she left the kernel team.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
One of the reasons large software projects, developed over many years, fail is that there are so many cooks participating in the making of the broth. There will always be someone who "knows better" than to follow the rules set in place when the project originally started. The project grows into a large ball of spaghetti, and nobody knows where it starts and where it ends.
Linus deserves a Noble Prize for keeping such a large project going strong for so many years, and that without any of the developers being his employees. Yes, the threat of being fired does prevents some of the cooks from spoiling the broth.
And then there are people who thrive in a political environment, and software development is very political. Some developers are very good at assigning and deflecting blame, and the larger the ball of spaghetti, the better they do.
Linus did not want to see his project fail this well-known way, so his rude comments are very much a necessity to keep the "know better" blame assigners/deflectors in line. So far the approach has worked fine.
In turn, this has created an environment where people who prefer to play the politics do not feel comfortable. And just as many people quit their jobs because they cannot put up with the politics, so do others quit from places where being political does not give them a competitive advantage.
I am reproducing Linus' words here (https://adtmag.com/blogs/dev-watch/2014/04/linus-torvalds-rants.aspx) :
"Because if you want me to 'act professional,' I can tell you that I'm not interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearing a bathrobe. The same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm *also* not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. Because THAT is what 'acting professionally' results in: people resort to all kinds of really nasty things because they are forced to act out their normal urges in unnatural ways."
Are you serious? This isn't about men vs. women, this is about basic human decency.
Why on earth would anyone voluntarily submit to a toxic atmosphere when they don't have to? Just because it's always been that way doesn't make it right, or pleasant.
Wow, that reads terribly. I forget; what are the attributes to be judged as being a 'fine woman' again?
Kindness is rare to find nowadays. I blame the national mood.
I've worked in groups before that communicated with each other with a lot of joking around a faux insults. When someone new came along they would usually join in. If they seemed bothered by the communication we would make it a point to communicate with them differently (to adjust to what they preferred). However, they seemed to take it as being painted an outcast.
Ultimately we are people and social rules apply even in professional environments. Everyone adapts together or else some get left behind and will never be happy with their peer interactions.
Teams do need to self-regulate and try not to go too crazy, or they will alienate every potential coworker that applies.
Is this an issue at all? We all know that the KML can become pointed and heated, there is a lot of passion involved. I'm not suggesting that this is the best environment, but it has been working surprisingly well for years now.
Sarah is suddenly newsworthy for "dropping out", despite not having contributed for over a year and a half, because... why?
Let me ask this; if Sarah was a man, would this be a story? Would anyone give a shit that a genderless programmer dropped out of the KML or kernel development? I'm pretty sure that people come and go ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Has she really contributed anything much? A few quirks mode patches doesn't really sound like a significant contributor. Does the lack of a penis really make Sarah noteworthy? Or is this just more of the "female in tech inequality" whining?
It sure feels like an agenda.
Holy fuck I can't even begin to imagine how utterly shit Linux would be if Linus cared about the contributors' delicate feelings and sensibilities instead of the quality of the project.
Sarah is exactly right, and what she's talking about is precisely why I don't submit any of my patches and bugfixes to the kernel.
amazing how many of you guys would prefer to live in a world filled with shitty assholes, treating everyone like a jerk. polite doesn't necessarily mean backstabber, and strength doesn't come from being rude -- it's just a sign of embracing your inner moron. you guys disgust me. in a world filled with hate and violence, it's nice and refreshing to work in a "professional" environment where people aren't utter dicks all the time, when people of various genders and ethnic backgrounds get along with each other. there's this prickish selfishness i find among you, where everything is a goddamned pissing contest. knock it off already. it doesn't hurt you to be civil to one another -- that's the real sign of strength, bros.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
Recent news: Priest in NJ arrested because someone saw him point a musket threatening a child wearing the wrong sports team jersey. Except the priest, and another person in the room, say the "musket" is a replica, never loaded or fired or even usable, and in context of the conversation it was all a joke to everyone involved - other than the person passing by the door and getting an out-of-context "snapshot" view of a man with a weapon just days after a mass shooting elsewhere. Lesson: Even the best people do things that can be misunderstood, and even saints probably looked like assholes now and then.
This post makes it 100% clear that the context of those comments was friendly. My friends and colleagues (we're a bunch of researchers) have the same kind of exchanges, and it's the friendliest work atmosphere anywhere ever.
It takes a lot of malice to misinterpret it as "toxic."
I think Sarah Sharp is a jerk, and I don't mean that in a nice way.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Fuck this ho.
Trash this ho, she is not really useful.
OH I NEED A SENSITIVE ENVIRONMENT. I GIRL.
get lost bitch
shjdgsajhfgdkjfagfk fu faggitdot i do as i pls
you meek, dick-sucking faggot
Voldemort's final form
another finswenordaansk svaldebaardian autistic piece of shit
probably his father built a rape-dungeon for children
In an IT address to a middle eastern country a person asked will we ever achieve greatness.
Women on one side and shielded from the men
The response was a blistering observation of segregation and second class citizenship of women in their society
"not if you only use 50% of your workforce".
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/...
Personally being an male I would rather work women. My findings across multiple disciplines, is that they bring a fresh perspective to an
already male overburdened workforce.
Its these types of attitudes that drive feminism
just my penny's worth
no matter how good it is, it is human nature always wants to make things better
"it patently clear no-one else agrees with your position" - by dave420 (699308) on Friday September 25, 2015 @04:44AM (#50595241)
Here's some that are QUITE contrary to yours from /. users + experts in the field:
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... & MalwareBytes = BEST antivirus per this VERY recent testing of them all http://www.av-test.org/en/news...
"I like your host file system." - by Karmashock (2415832) on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:57PM (#50489401)
&
"his hosts program is actually pretty good" - by xenotransplant (4179011) on Monday August 10, 2015 @03:34PM (#50287195)
---
* Let's see - a TOP antimalware company hosts AND RECOMMENDS my ware, & real users here like it - you're outnumbered, outthought, & OUTSMARTED, easily as usual, by "yours truly"...
APK
P.S.=> To top all THAT off? Better people that a "ne'er-do-well" MORON troll who's never accomplished a thing of good note in computing in yourself AGREE with me hosts are good security:
Quote of Aryeh Goretsky of NOD32/ESET doing so in fact -> http://it.slashdot.org/comment...
You UTTER blowhard do nothing "ne'er-do-well" troll... "eat your words" & tell us:
HOW DID THEY TASTE?
Flavored with the "bitter taste of SELF-defeat" since your mouth wrote checks your dimwit brain can't cash? Rammed down YOUR THROAT since you stuck your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH too?? LMAO...
... apk
"it patently clear no-one else agrees with your position" - by dave420 (699308) on Friday September 25, 2015 @04:44AM (#50595241)
Here's some that are QUITE contrary to yours from /. users + experts in the field:
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... & MalwareBytes = BEST antivirus per this VERY recent testing of them all http://www.av-test.org/en/news...
"I like your host file system." - by Karmashock (2415832) on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:57PM (#50489401)
&
"his hosts program is actually pretty good" - by xenotransplant (4179011) on Monday August 10, 2015 @03:34PM (#50287195)
---
* Let's see - a TOP antimalware company hosts AND RECOMMENDS my ware, & real users here like it - you're outnumbered, outthought, & OUTSMARTED, easily as usual, by "yours truly"...
APK
P.S.=> To top all THAT off? Better people that a "ne'er-do-well" MORON troll who's never accomplished a thing of good note in computing in yourself AGREE with me hosts are good security:
Quote of Aryeh Goretsky of NOD32/ESET doing so in fact -> http://it.slashdot.org/comment...
You UTTER blowhard do nothing "ne'er-do-well" troll... "eat your words" & tell us:
HOW DID THEY TASTE?
Flavored with the "bitter taste of SELF-defeat" since your mouth wrote checks your dimwit brain can't cash? Rammed down YOUR THROAT since you stuck your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH too?? LMAO...
... apk
The short version is that the Linux kernel community are the scum of the earth, and will ensure that the best and brightest among them will go elsewhere.
that adult life isn't just the permanent continuation of high school and its power relations?
/. -- the Free Republic of technology.
There was a time when it wasn't necessary for IT people to play dandy games.
1. Who eliminated our Tom Smitkowskis and to whose profit?
2. Why is imperialism even remotely cool?
/. -- the Free Republic of technology.
> This isn't empowering women. This is arguing that they are weaker than men far more profoundly than any MRA red piller gamer gater misogynist could ever hope to accomplish.
No, *labeling* something as "weaker" makes it weaker, which you just did.
Why is this news? She hasn't had a commit since 2011, and the only contributions she made were for a kernel module which has some serious flaws.
When you can't cut it in the real world and have very little of value to contribute.
Mental illness shouldn't be ignored just because it's a woman displaying it. She's not merely a cunt, she's got issues.
Men and women have different general preferences for communications style.
Tell that to Matthew Garrett and Con Konvilas who also both left after getting fed up with your supposed "male communication style".
You're in the minority on this - you do not talk for all males,
Do you appreciate the irony of speaking for all males and telling someone how they don't?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Men and women have different general preferences for communications style.
Tell that to Matthew Garrett and Con Konvilas who also both left after getting fed up with your supposed "male communication style".
You're in the minority on this - you do not talk for all males,
Do you appreciate the irony of speaking for all males and telling someone how they don't?
I was careful not to speak for all males - see the word "generally" there? Ever wonder what it means?
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
You were speaking as much/as little for one whole gender as the previous poster.
I like how after declaring men and women generally communicate differently you completely ignored my comment pointing two men who have left over the same problems.
You are intellectually dishonest and suffer deeply from confirmation bias, not to mention being a poster child for the backfire effect.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
You were speaking as much/as little for one whole gender as the previous poster.
Nope, I took care to insert the word "general" in there, which you may have skipped over in your haste to respond. You should attempt as much care when reading as I do when writing.
I like how after declaring men and women generally communicate differently you completely ignored my comment pointing two men who have left over the same problems.
Lots of men have left. Ulrich, Alan Cox. In the offline world people leave too, you know. The great thing about *this* particular organisation is that it is completely voluntary. You can say that the invisible green men told you to leave - still doesn't mean much. It's all voluntary.
You are intellectually dishonest and suffer deeply from confirmation bias, not to mention being a poster child for the backfire effect.
Personal attacks, attacking me personally and not my argument... you *do* realise that you're responding in a thread titled "[...]be more sensitive", right? Where's this legendary sensitivity when you need it?
Perhaps I should swoon now :-)
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Lots of men have left.
But not all. This is therefore not just a problem with the way women communicate.
not my argument..
You ignored what I wrote: you had no argument to attack.
Perhaps I should swoon now :-)
huh?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Lots of men have left.
But not all. This is therefore not just a problem with the way women communicate.
not my argument..
You ignored what I wrote: you had no argument to attack.
Perhaps I should swoon now :-)
huh?
Oh, wait, you do not remember what you said?
Let me refresh your memory: in a thread about hostile communications, in which you are arguing that the communication is too hostile, you write this:
You are intellectually dishonest and suffer deeply from confirmation bias, not to mention being a poster child for the backfire effect.
Nice going there, being polite in your correspondence - you ever think that maybe you're part of the problem? You trash talk like the rest, but blame everybody else for chasing away women... Nice.
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
If you are taking about glxgears, crappy file managers and other userspace software, than you should know that it has nothing to do with Linus and his attitude. They are developed completly different people
And the kernel is way bloatier than necessary because the kind of people who enjoy cleaning that kind of crap up tend to get disparaged or ignored, and just walk away.
Bloat is like Godwin's Law. When someone doesn't have a clue the word bloat gets into the conversation.
She's arguing for a more professional communications style. If anyone spoke to (or emailed) me at work the way kernel developers are frequently quoted as communicating with one another on the lists, I'd pass the message on to my boss, and expect them hauled up in front of HR if they carried on. What's more, I've seen this happen (once, in my more than 20 years of professional experience.)
Anyone posting on Slashdot that they think this is normal, or that it's somehow how males normally talk to one another, is in for a shock when they graduate from whatever high school they're from and attempt to get a degree and/or a job. Office or academic politics is often vicious, but you accuse a co-worker of sexually gratifying a corporation in email, and you can expect consequences, at minimum a talking to, and quite possibly (job) termination.
I cannot believe so many here think this is normal behavior, or even acceptable. Yeah, we're all obnoxious assholes on Slashdot, but that's because we're not working together here and we're letting off steam.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Let me refresh your memory: in a thread about hostile communications
This is your typical intellectually dishonest method of arguing: you like to conflate wildly different things and present the result as a black and white issue.
The LKML is a technical mailing list to facilitate kernel development.
Slashdot is a forum to facilitate arguing.
The thing is, at this point you've either admitted that you're so stupid you can't tell the difference between the two or so dishonest that you'll pretend to know there is no difference when you actually know there is.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
One of the reasons why I moved away from several Linux machines was because no matter what scheduler I used, disk IO always slowed the system down to a crawl. It's supposed to slow, but not like that. I mean the mouse was jerky, applications would stop responding...this with a single set of cp commands, let alone when I ran out of RAM and the beast started swapping in and out.
I was told to get an SSD. I switched OSes and it got better all of a sudden. Weird. 8 years down the drain.
Have you heard about SoylentNews?
Let me refresh your memory: in a thread about hostile communications
This is your typical intellectually dishonest method of arguing: you like to conflate wildly different things and present the result as a black and white issue.
The LKML is a technical mailing list to facilitate kernel development.
Slashdot is a forum to facilitate arguing.
The thing is, at this point you've either admitted that you're so stupid you can't tell the difference between the two or so dishonest that you'll pretend to know there is no difference when you actually know there is.
Lovely - when you do it "context matters", when others do it "they are hostile".
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Lovely - when you do it "context matters"
Yes context does matter, which is why you're a fool for pretending it does not.
"they are hostile".
Ah this is the point where having lost the argument thoroughly you simply resort to making up stuff that I never said. My arguments with you always end this way. At the point you simply start making stuff up, I generally consider the argument won.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Lovely - when you do it "context matters"
Yes context does matter, which is why you're a fool for pretending it does not.
"they are hostile".
Ah this is the point where having lost the argument thoroughly you simply resort to making up stuff that I never said. My arguments with you always end this way. At the point you simply start making stuff up, I generally consider the argument won.
You always consider your argument "won" - even when you don't actually "win" anything :-) Unfortunately for you the thread is still here for all to see your pointless and repeated insults arguing about why other people cannot insult. LKML is, after all, a voluntary association, just like /.
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
You always consider your argument "won" - even when you don't actually "win" anything
The point whee you give up on any semblance of reasonableness and start simply making up stuff that you claim I've said---any reasonable person would consider the argument won.
Basically if you've got nothing left but lies you have lost.
HAND.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
You always consider your argument "won" - even when you don't actually "win" anything
The point whee you give up on any semblance of reasonableness and start simply making up stuff that you claim I've said---any reasonable person would consider the argument won.
Basically if you've got nothing left but lies you have lost.
HAND.
Luckily my posting history is available to all; never once made up a thing. Of course, this is not the first time you accuse me of making something up, so, yeah - I'm used to it. After all, in this very thread you say that I claimed stuff that you did not claim - and this thread itself shows no such thing :-)
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Of course, this is not the first time you accuse me of making something up, so
Tell you what: prove I said it.
I'm waiting...
SJW n. One who posts facts.
From her reactions to what was said I think she is too sensitive to interact with anyone who does not share her exact viewpoints on everything.
Everyone except any particular counter-example your opponents can dig up?
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.