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Getting More Women Coders Into Open Source
Nerval's Lobster writes: Diversity remains an issue in tech firms across the nation, with executives and project managers publicly upset over a lack of women in engineering and programming roles. While all that's happening on the corporate side, a handful of people and groups are trying to get more women involved in the open source community, like Women of OpenStack, Outreachy (which is geared toward people from underrepresented groups in free software), and others. How much effort should be expended to facilitate diversity among programmers? Can anything be done to shift the demographics, considering the issues that even large, coordinated companies have with altering the collective mix of their employees?
Fill all the forums with macho bravado. I hear that works every time.
just stop
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
Id much rather that the executives worry about their product, and not work quota. While they worry about how to get X into Y, they are not using that time to better their product or their service.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
Maybe more women coders would join open source if people didn't act like Linus? Not everyone knows he is quite ''normal'' in real life.
I really wish my company had more female coders, because I'd like to see if they would provide a different perspective. As it is, we only have one, and she is good, but does not work in our sustainment group (instead she works on capital projects only).
Maybe coding is just something that attracts more men than women. I know it's always been that way for me. I've known very few women who take coding up as a profession, and those I have known were always very good (or at least, I've known men who were way worse).
However, it's entirely likely that men and women simply gravitate to different professions. We are not the same, to assume we are is to deny our differences.
We shouldn't mandate a 50/50 split, but we should ensure that there are no barriers to anyone wishing to pursue this profession. Once any barriers are removed (and I'm not sure there are any now), then we would see what the true diversity in backgrounds for coders would be.
Can anything be done to shift the demographics [of open-source projects], considering the issues that even large, coordinated companies have with altering the collective mix of their employees?
Since a large portion of OSS contributors these days, especially to the bigger projects, are employees paid to contribute, the questions of demographics of the tech industry, and demographics of OSS projects, are pretty intertwined. When you have so many gcc, LLVM, Linux, etc. developers employed by the likes of Red Hat, IBM, Google, Apple, and Intel, the demographics of those projects are going to look at least somewhat similar to the demographics of developers within the companies in question.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I have yet to encounter one project manager that actually knows the project inside out and isn't just a glorified office manager.
You know how more women can be involved into open-source ? When there are more women coding open source. That's it. This is not a f**cking social issue.
If diversity improves the quality of code, then let every open source project or company decide that it is suffering from al lthose nasty bugs and lack of vision because there isn't enough estrogen in the mailing list. It isn't my problem. It isn't society's problem. It's not like women are banned from computer science and coding. And frankly, nobody how cares many women are coding, good for those who are, and good for those who aren't. It's coding...not suffrage or human rights or anything of fundamental importance to society. It's like cribbing about how all the cobblers in my town are men , no women. Well, boo fucking hoo.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.
Why? Answer that question please. Are you just wanting to date more co-workers and you aren't gay? Everything right about that.
Do open source coders meet in person much? I am not hip to that scene, but I thought it was mostly done online.
Is there a vagina-to-good-code ratio? Please cite the evidence for this.
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
One of the things that draws me to Open Source is that the barriers to entry are absolutely fucking zero. You want to build an Open Source app? Do it. Release it. If people want to use it and contribute to it, they will. If not, they won't (see the billions of abandoned/disused apps on sourceforge, github, etc). Run it however the fuck you want.
However, this really smacks of "Oh, but doesn't feel welcome in the community!" that's been going around lately. So the fuck what? DO IT YOURSELF. Don't wait for my approval. Don't wait to look around to see if anyone cares. If you want to do it, DO IT. You don't like how some maintainer is maintaining a project? FORK IT and make SOMETHING BETTER. Show them how YOU would do it. Just SHUT THE FUCK UP AND START DOING instead of WHINING.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Obviously, all women that want to be coders and have the aptitude to be good ones have a more than good shot at becoming coders. That is what matters. As most women do not want to be coders (just like most men, incidentally, the tiny reminder is just larger for men), "getting more women into coding" sound like trying to trick or coerce people into doing things they do not want and what they have no reasonable aptitude for. That never has a good outcome.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
you're a dick
It seems the best way to get more women involved is to start a whispering campaign that all open source is just a front for the production and distribution of child porn. I mean casting male teachers a pedophiles did wonders for increasing women's ranks in education, maybe a good old witch hunt is just what is needed to insure equality.
Luckily we have one going now, and won't those future women coders be surprised that they are competing against HB1 women coders. What will the excuse be then? I hear intersectionality is all the rage!
And men can finally retire from working life (no, really, you've earned it) and demand their spot on the public dole.
Let anyone with the aptitude and the desire to code do so. Enough of this forced "equality" for something that will never appeal to everybody.
What's next? Forcing equality on nursing? Medicine? Firefighters? Garbage collectors?
Face it: "equality" is a mealy-mouthed politically correct term. The term people should be using is equivalency -- as in people with different skills are getting paid equivalent salaries in different professions.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
When we cure that fact that most nurses are still female. Most medical billing coders are female (we were 7-0). I can't remember when I had a female airline pilot.
get over it
Besides, any more about needing more women and children coding and I'll have to start reading the conspiracy theories.
Every project should be forked, all the people who are great at getting along, agreeing with each other and are open and inclusive will all make great contributions making all the software that much better.
All it would take would be for the code to be freely available and the tools for the infrastructure to be available a zero cost. After that the only reason it wouldn't have happened would be if ${minority_group} had little or no interest in open source specifically or indeed programming in general.
It could be that programming itself is a mental aberration and wanting more 'normal' people to indulge is like forming a cult or pushing drugs on the innocent.
you're a dick
You think so? Well let's try something then.
Diversity remains an issue in hospitals across the nation, with executives and project managers publicly upset over a lack of men in nursing roles. While all that's happening on the corporate side, a handful of people and groups are trying to get more men involved in nursing school. How much effort should be expended to facilitate diversity among nurses? Can anything be done to shift the demographics, considering the issues that even large, coordinated companies have with altering the collective mix of their employees?
If you find TFA acceptable, but my alterations not, then I am (not) sorry to say that it is you who is the dick, not I.
Open source projects require a lot of your own time, and women often still take on a bit more of the work caring for the house and kids when they are not at work (usually because they want to).
I've recently applied to join one for the first time. I want to do a bit more at home to boost my resume and skills, and I thought that might be a good way to do it. The reason I never have before is that while I don't have kids or a partner or anything, I have a lot of other interests and coming home from work after writing code all day, to have dinner then sit down to write more code, isn't really that appealing. I love my job, but I also like to play drums, I have dance lessons, I sew, I bake my own bread, I read a lot, play video games, and I'd rather be out with friends for after work drinks than still working for free. Is this because I'm a women and more social? I got into coding because I thought it was fun, not because I was a lonely guy with only my computer for company? Or just because it's how I am. No idea. I DO plan on finishing one of my Android home projects one day though, I swear!
Hey girls! Do you want to do programming work for zero compensation? Do you want to spend your free time doing labor? Then OPEN SOURCE is the place to be! Join us today!
How to get more women in construction, the army, garbage collection, coal mines... Men are the disposable gender, and women have the disposable income. Universities are salivating at the prospect of more revenue!!!
Getting more women into getting Nervals Lobster to stop getting more stories about getting more women into coding.
Lets break it all down.
1) The desire to have a diverse workforce is inherently prejudicial. The workers should be judged on their abilities, not their sex, not their race.
2) When women express a desire for more diversity in tech, they are being sexist. Workers should be judged on their abilities, not their sex.
3) When men express a desire not to have women in tech, they are being sexist. Workers should be judged on their abilities, not their sex.
4) When men express that their anger at the push for diversity in tech, they are complaining that they are the victims of sexism.
5) We need wives and mothers. If we don't have them, we will all die of deprivation when we reach retirement age.
6) We don't need computer programmers. Nice to have, but we can totally do without it.
7) When industry leaders express that there is a need for diversity in technology, they are not expressing a desire to be inclusive, rather, they are expressing a desire to coerce women to abandon other roles and serve them, regardless of the larger needs of society. They are acting in the best interests of themselves, and themselves only.
In summation, every person who expresses a desire for more diversity in tech is prejudicial, and a bully. You do not occupy the moral high ground, and you should stop.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
So where is the app to get my slashdot back and filter all those
we need more girls, women, ladies, mademoiselle,schoolgirl, non-male in [coding, stem, linux kernel, universities] bullshit ?
That's nonsense actually.
There are plenty of cases in nursing where having someone more physically powerful would be quite useful.
In contrast, the gender of a woman brings nothing to the table for coding. They aren't the same thing.
Maybe if at least one FREE* license didn't have the "except girls" clause more women would code for free. What's that? There never was such a thing? Oh, then we should copy scientology. They're pretty good at brainwashing people. With enough money I'm sure they will be able to correct the subversive scum.
If it doesn't work we could always shoot any girl who can't write her own kernel. The major upside is it'd end the one species on the planet who thinks forcing other adults to do things they hate is somehow good.
* free > open
I've been doing an open source project for about 4 years now (I have been working as a programmer since 1998 - I have a Comp Sci degree, too). Considering some of the places I've found my project in use (Middle Eastern locales) I'm almost certain they don't realize it's a one woman show project. I think we don't get tagged as female devs on our projects unless we cover our stuff with pink ribbons and flowers.
If things like gender are to genuinely supposed to not influence our reactions in the workplace, then we need to stop fucking focusing on them and accept people, men and women, for who they are, or whatever interests they happen to have that may, or may not, happen to direct them into a particular industry.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Deep-throating is all the rage in the Linux kernel developers circles these days!
ref: previous stories today
Are we really pondering the question of how to convince more women to code for free? Why? What barriers are there to their participation?
On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog - just pick a cool l33t name for yourself and start contributing, and when anyone finds out you are (or identify) as a girl, you will become real popular REAL FAST.
Ken
Diversity remains an issue in tech firms across the nation, with executives and project managers publicly upset over a lack of women in engineering and programming roles.
Yeah...uh, some executives may have expressed dismay over the lack of women in E & P roles, but if a "project manager" expressed anything on the matter publicly, s/he would be looking for new employment lickety split. Expressing an opinion in the public square just isn't a part of the job description of a "project manager" (at least in the corporate world).
In any event, I'm not seeing anyone *upset* about this issue. Call me when there's a protest or picket or sumpthin.
After teaching three semester-long high school classes on Java, the tools were more of a problem than the programming. With the typical older computers you have in schools, it took about twenty minutes to boot Windows, login, then load Eclipse and wait for Eclipse to become usable. That was a third of my class time! Also, problems with the UI disaster that is Eclipse seemed to bother the girls a lot more than the guys. Also, stupid inconsistencies like how Java requires the file extension to compile like "javac main.java", but intentionally breaks if you provide it in the command to run the class with, for example, "java main.class". Sun knew they were being assholes when they decided to do this to programmers, but while it just made the guys angry and want to learn more about how to workaround these asinine sort of things, the girls just gave-up. Girls are a lot more sensitive than guys, and they understand when people are trying to screw them over.
How much effort should be expended to facilitate diversity among programmers?
That's easy.
Let people who want to give encouragement give as much encouragement as they want.
Let people who don't want to expend effort not expend effort.
Problem solved.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
How many women would give up their nursing jobs to get more men in the field? How many Teachers?
Sound ridiculous? That is exactly what these vagina counters are doing to men in STEM occupations - they aren't creating new jobs for women, they are taking jobs away from men to give to women...
Ken
Wow. Two stories about how toxic the LKML is and how much of an asshole Torvalds is, and now this. I had thought the gender lunacy had been a little light lately.
Has Dice found a potential buyer? I've been lurking ever since it was announced they wanted to sell Slashdot. It fits right in with the Narrative that the future owners of Slashdot may very well have the primary interest of proving just how awful all of us geeks are. Well, at least the vast majority of posters here who are men.
Seriously, folks, you're just letting Dice troll you, and all you're doing is giving ammunition towards the Narrative. This will become important in the post-TPP, post-TTIP world, especially because the 3rd of these overreaching treaties, TISA may very well break the internet as we've known it.
The internet is anathema to TPTB. There's too many nerds getting in the way of SOPA et al, too many nerds making strong encryption more accessible to the common man. It's not just nerds, either. It's MGTOW, redpillers, and A Voice for Men (when the latter-most isn't busy embarrassing itself). It's the revelation of the gender lunatic agenda every time somebody like me points out how much of a farce rape cultures are. Thanks to the internet, many of us have awoken to realize that race as an issue is not over. On the open internet, built by geeks and nerds, run on open source software, heretical ideas that would completely demolish the control that the Masters of the Universe wish over us such as a minimum guaranteed income and single payer healthcare have begun gaining credibility, even among certain "bleeding heart" libertarians.
This smear campaign against nerds, geeks, etc in tech is just a ramp-up to give credibility towards enacting TPP, TTIP, and TISA. What are we, a bunch of misogynerds who send death threats to any woman with the "temerity to dare" engage in open source and do we endorse revenge porn? I should hope the hell not, and I've seen many, many ways that nerds and geeks are some of the most progressive and accepting individuals I know on matters of race and gender. This is why we allow ourselves to become so worked up at the idea that we've somehow, in the course of pursuing our hobbies and careers, despite our best efforts and egalitarian attitudes, somehow committed the inexcusable sins of sexism and racism and are responsible for the lack of women and minorities among our numbers.
Do not let the news media, which either Dice or the buyer its wooing at the moment, manipulate you. Yes, there's sexism and racism out there. Some damned sexist convinced a very bright young woman I had the honor of mentoring as a developer that she should major in English rather than join our ranks. That damned sexist was not a programmer or a network administrator or an engineer. That damned sexist was in all likelihood a teacher or school counselor who said, "Stay away from those misogynerds! Get a nice English degree so you can find a husband."
There is one point and one point only of stories like TFS: to troll for and generate "proof" of the misogynerd.
Well, that's my $0.02.
For the record, if you're still reading, I have no personal problems with outreach efforts. More power to them. They face an army of non-technical sexists. On that basis, I feel sorry for them. They will likely continue to fail, because the outreach needs to happen in high schools and middle schools. I hope they succeed, but when they fail, it's more proof of the Narrative.
--kurenai.tsubasa
Captcha: denature
I recently realized (I'm ashamed it took me this long) that this line of thought is self defeating. Social justice demands equality in numbers. The benefit, they tell us, is diversity in thought. That a more diverse workplace results in a better product or service due to the diversity of those that contributed their ideas.
But these are the same people who also tell us that women are exactly like men and that any difference is a false social construct. That being the case, then once [oppressed minority] reaches parity with the awful cishet white male, then won't any benefit from having diversity vanish, assuming if ever actually existed in the first place?
In short, if we're all the same except for superficial traits, diversity based on superficial traits CANNOT create a different environment.
Uh, Gamer is not equal to Coder (nor are they mutually exclusive).
That's like saying we'd have more women in the engineering departments at the big three automakers if NASCAR wasn't such an 'old boy's club'...
Ken
In my long (over 30 year) career, I've never once seen anyone hired because they were male despite there being a more-able female candidate.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen - I've just never seen it.
On the other hand, I *have* seen a less-capable candidate hired because they were female.
I'm not saying it's common (not least because I don't think it is) - but I have seen it.
In my experience, whether you keep your reproductive organs internally or externally has exactly ZERO influence on how good your code is - so can we just cut all this SJW bullshit, and hire the best person for the job?
Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
Recognize that there is no justification for the treatment received by Anita Sarkeesian for challenging sexim in games, that would help.
99% of the treatment she calls harassment is people calling her out on her bullshit. She spins this into "Its because I'm a woman/feminist", but the reality is its just the internet doing what it does best: Calling you out publicly on your bullshit. She is also a public figure at this point, and as such, has been receiving what plenty of public figures get - Non-credible death threats and some pretty mean tweets. So what you are saying is that we should treat her different because she is a woman? Or are you being sexist and not saying that all harassment of that nature is bad, but you will only defend it because it is happening to a woman?
But I thought Friday was SJW day on slashdot.org?
Nope! Unfortunately it has been, and will continue, to be pounded to death. Easy click bait and lots of page views for little effort.
Instead of worrying about penis and vagina counts how about we worry about all the American tech workers who have been replaced by foreign workers. 94 million Americans are unemployed including almost half of them are women.
While your number is incorrect, the point has merit. Instead of worrying about things that really hurt our economy (TPPIP/NAFTA/War/Corruption) people that own media are erecting the same straw man over and over. The lie is being repeated so much that people believe the lie (Bernays and Himmler were assholes, but not stupid). This is the value of propaganda, and the US currently is overflowing with it.
The same lies about discrimination in the workplace are being repeated by people that may be well intentioned, but too lazy to actually check a fact and not quite bright enough to realize they are being used as a useful idiot.
I really don't understand how people can believe this is accidental. If one news station had a different story they would make a mint in readership/viewership. Instead, they all repeat the same exact line of bullshit over and over. Also consider that the only "popular" opposition is controlled.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
So just stop with this nonsense, if a women is geared towards a career then it is obviously in her interest.
This obscene festish with blacks, gays and women is really disgusting.
Who cares what the demographics are?
So long as everyone is allowed to freely pursue their interests regardless of whatever "groups" we want to label them as, it shouldn't matter what % choose what pursuits.
Trying to force an arbitrary ratio of members from arbitrary groups is futile.
Isn't that discrimination? Why must I be of a certain race or sexuality to be considered for a job? Aren't there laws against this in the US?
While I agree we shouldn't try too hard to even the genders in coding, saying that females coders bring nothing to the table that men bring is nonsense. The sexes on average approach problems differently. Neither is inherently "better", they both have strengths and weaknesses. This brings diversity to projects. Even if men only coded with other men and women only with other women humanity would benefit. With mixed teams we can lean on each other to offer refreshing perspective. Again, this is in averages. Every person is unique.
So what?
Slashdot is becoming slashperiod
I keep trying to convince my teenage daughters that they should get into coding since they are absolutely guaranteed to get a great job after college, even if they are just mediocre developers, purely because of their gender! But no... they would rather study things like journalism and anthropology. My mind boggles. I am a professional coder who also teaches a college level web development course on the side. I have the resources and experience to train them, but my offers fall on deaf ears. Sigh. Even after being married to a woman and having four daughters I just don't get girls.
Whether he's a dick or not, he's right.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
It's time for women to build their own open source culture and projects away from the harmful influence of men.
Open source projects are notorious for having emotionally-detached mailing lists with offensive communication. Here's a recent example:
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2988850/opensource-subnet/linux-kernel-dev-sarah-sharp-quits-citing-brutal-communications-style.html
Fuck off, Anita.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I don't know how old you are or how many jobs you have had, but you present he same whine we saw yesterday. Perhaps here it was a joke, but I see it the same as yesterday's "Linus wrote an email with curse words in it!" thread. Oh the horror!
Even if I was not a Veteran, I understand stress in the work place. I have been at plenty of jobs with "that fuckup" who made everyone work an extra 20+ hours a week for months on end. I have seen people defend "that fuckup" when people finally get fed up, after months of kindness and ass covering don't change the situation. People have breaking points, and they all vary slightly. Personally, with kids I have the patience of a Saint because they have to learn things. Adults, you get three strikes before I tell you to go pound sand, or something more crude.
As a Vet, I really wish people could see what real anger in the workplace is. The stakes are much more obvious when lives are directly on the line. Correlate that to a guy's life work as people try to do with Linus. His income and legacy both hinge on how good or bad the Linux kernel is/does. Oh I know.. it is much easier for people to whine about the horrors of reading a few curse words at the tail end of a conversation.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Men, women, just shut up and code.
Quotas are not competition.
SJWs find an issue in everything. Their solution strikes me as being heavily biased toward quotas and reverse discrimination. They're not so interested in root causes. Finding and remedying root causes is work and work and whining just don't mix well for them.
Only a stupid company (or project or what-have-you) would fail to take advantage of talent. That's one thing I admired about the IBM of some years ago. They made full use of the talent pool without regard to race or gender (at least that's how it appeared to me from the outside). And that's the real answer: Make sure there are no untoward barriers to entry[1], and then make use of the talent that presents itself.
Anything else, like bemoaning imbalances and immediately ascribing that to prejudice, is just lazy SJW whining, pointing fingers and looking for problems without being willing to work toward real solutions.
[1] By this I do not mean take in any "underrepresented" member regardless of qualifications or ability. I mean instead, ensure that anyone with ability and interest is not excluded arbitrarily. For instance, give scholarships and work-study opportunities to people with talent but who can't otherwise afford college.
Most people who get into computers and programming are naturally introverted.
This is a stereotype, and not really true.
On the other hand, it's important to understand that men and woman at NOT the same, and they may have different ideas about what they want to do in life.
The idea that in every field, we must have 50/50 is simply stupid.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
The link goes to a blog post over a year old. Is this really an active group? If women want to go Open Source but don't like the current regime, they can just start new Open Source projects under their rules.
"Diversity remains an issue in tech firms across the nation"
It's a bullshit issue, and its importance is artificially inflated by SJW groups. Frankly, these companies that think there has to be a 50/50 split in everything need to get their heads out of the collective asses.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
There is not a lack of jobs in STEM. IT, for example, is on the immigration skills shortage list in many countries. They're not "stealing our jerbs!"
Give it a rest already.
All I can say is that if more women means more sarah sharp and more mathew garrett 'men', oss could do without.
"respect for other people"
Cute but untrue. Your kind of respect is that toward the thought police.
I'm not the OP, but I would find your alterations acceptable on the assumption that it's accurate, but this is actually a symptom of a wider problem. Anne-Marie Slaughter put it much better.
Expose everyone to a wide variety of activities from a whole range of fields when they are going through school and encourage them to follow the ones that they find the most interest in. If a girl wants to be a coder, great. If she wants to be an electrician, great. If she wants to be a nurse, great. Same thing for a boy. If they find something that they really like doing then they are going to be much happier in life than if they are just doing a job to pay the bills.
Did you miss the earlier discussion? Toxic communities drive people away, regardless of their ability or the quality of their contributions. Ridiculous posturing, grunting, and dick-waving get old really quick. The worst of it? It takes away from actually working on the project. The adolescent behavior you're defending does nothing to help the project.
Further, it should be obvious to everyone by now that development doesn't happen in some purely objective and impossibly rational context. The code does not stand on its own -- not in any community. There are politics, power struggles, bullies, and victims. Contributions are rarely, if ever, judged solely on their own merits. The person submitting a change, their reputation, and relationships to other members plays a far greater roll. It always has.
You've mistaken your ideals for reality. The world is not what you believe it ought to be.
Required reading for internet skeptics
Not if you're white. Also, apparently asian too, nowadays.
Asians have been upgraded to "white oppressor" status.
I'm a gay man and an open source developer. I really don't give a fuck how many other gay men or women or aliens from Alpha Centauri participate in the projects I contribute to. It's coding, not dating.
Build your own fucking community, run by your rules. Shut the fuck up and build something.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Mark my word, You'll be sorry.
If by "calling her out on her bullshit" you mean misrepresenting her ideas to mean whatever you want them to mean and then "debunking" that?
Because that's really all I've seen. I've yet to see a criticism from that camp that actually addressed the points she was making. I have seen a lot of irrational nonsense from second-rate media skeptics out for a few page views, however. Hell, most of them can be addressed by the preface she places at the beginning of ever one of her videos!
The think about reason and critical thinking is that you need to apply those skills everywhere -- not just to those things to which you viscerally disagree. A bad argument is a bad argument even if you agree with the conclusion. Try applying those same skills to one of your favorite critiques. How do those arguments hold up to the light of reason? I'll apologize in advance as you're going to lose at least one of your heroes.
So, yes, most of the criticism she receives is undeserved as it has little to nothing to do with the actual content of her videos. Real criticism is possible (she's not exactly top-tier) though it would be difficult to find any (if any exists) among the endless torrent of irrational and otherwise irrelevant responses.
Required reading for internet skeptics
Considering we're talking about open source, how it is not open and accessible? You can take whatever code you want and contribute as much or as little as you want. If you don't like the way the project is going, you can fork the code and head off in your own direction and if the community thinks you're doing a better job, eventually you'll pick up contributors.
Forcing morals on everyone else and telling them that if they don't accept it they're being discriminatory is not making things better.
FORK IT and make SOMETHING BETTER. Show them how YOU would do it. Just SHUT THE FUCK UP AND START DOING instead of WHINING.
Nice try, but Matthew Garrett did just fork Linux and everyone in the Slashdot comments just whined about that. There is no way to win, apparently.
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
I have to admit, the Slashdot comments section whenever there is a story with the word "women" in it is really entertaining.
It's like a cross between Japanese television and the primate house at the zoo on sweet potato day.
You are welcome on my lawn.
If women don't care about making code faster and more compact, maybe they should work on other aspects of FOSS. For instance, most of it could use a lot of help in the documentation department.
Documentation is rarely valued as a contribution. We specifically had to go out of our way to hire a technical writer for Mac OS X to get the man pages covered for the UNIX Conformance requirement. And those were just command line commands, Libc, and the kernel interfaces that had coverage requirements.
It's definitely not valued nearly as well as code. The most common comment with regard to it is advice to "RTFS" and some variant of "If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand". This is seen in the tools, as well. For example, git is written in such a way that you pretty much have to understand all of it to use any of it. This steepness of the learning curve appears to be intention, and viewed as a merit badge for when someone gets their head around it and Groks it. In the same way that you can do anything in Perl in half a dozen or a dozen different ways, the same is true of git.
Also, your verbal vs. visual thinking bias is showing. Personally, I process software in the same part of my brain that does auditory processing of music (meaning I have a hard time coding if I'm listening to music, as verified by FMRI of the dorsolateral frontal cortex and inferior frontal gyrus, Broca's, and Wernicke's areas, among other areas). Language centers tend to be common for processing both sound and software in many coders.
Ironically, if you are good with languages, you tend to be good with code as well, assuming you have a number of computer languages under your belt to generalize from. But if the tools have a crappy learning curve, then it takes a bit of OCD to be willing to invest the time necessary to overcome it. Staying overnight in a computer lab so that you can get time on the machines is not something most people do these days.
I'm a female programmer, you insensitive clods!
That's just simply not true. At all. Why do you think that?
Hey,
I wanna be a dancer, an artist, an elementary school teacher, a mother, a runway model, a ballerina, and I want to play women's basketball.
One problem.
I'm a dude.
So WTF, let's get the score even, more dudes in those jobs.
but they do know if you're female
Because I'm lazy right now, lets just go back to the Hitman debacle. She goes off and says the room is there for you to basically kill the strippers and have your perverse fun with their dead bodies. Go google a quick Lets Play - Nobody does this. At all. The few people that even do take the path by the room, they avoid them completely, and just run by. If you even pay attention to the dialogue in that area, you would see that you are supposed to be sympathetic to the strippers plight (dealing with the 'vacation' one of them is taking), and showing how fucked up it can be to work in those situations.
Lets see, there was also the fact that she thinks that Bayonetta is her own mother and doesn't seem to understand how her suit works, or the fact it is made up of her own hair. Oh! Lets not forget that that one game (its name is escaping me) where she cried just viewing some game footage that its a Damsel in Distress trope, yet the female lead SAVES you from being eaten alive from zombies in the opening scene.
If you are not seeing the videos and posts that address the points she was making, you should know something that some people suffer from confirmation bias and really only look in their own echo chambers for information.
Am I saying that she doesn't receive harassment? No. Am I saying that most of threats she receives are non-credible? Yes. She gets the same flack that anyone does online, even if they are non-controversial. Welcome to being in the public spotlight. I don't agree with the harassment that people in the public spotlight get, but to say that this is purely because she is a woman or a feminist is disingenuous at best.
I think you forgot the fork then "DO SOMETHING WITH IT" part.
Make your own community. That's the way of open source.
I can't speak for other people, but personally I do value documentation. Not that I want to spend all my time documenting someone else's work, but when I need to learn about something, documentation is invaluable. No, it isn't as fun as writing code, but that doesn't make it useless. If someone else wants to contribute to FOSS and isn't a coder, but can do tech writing, I for one would appreciate their contribution to documentation.
Just because a lot of stuff isn't documented well doesn't mean it should be this way. git is a bit of a special case: it does have documentation (there's lots of man pages for it), but the problem is that its UI is organically grown, it wasn't really designed with a consistent interface, and it shows (badly). It's very powerful but the interface isn't the greatest; I usually find myself googling for answers when using git, and winding up reading stuff on stackexchange. Good documentation only helps so much when you have a wacky UI.
Example: esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1310
---------
Should sexist opensource developers have their projects censored or removed?
Recently an opensource game release story was removed due to the game developer's open sexism(0) and harrasment(1) of women in tech.
A story posted by the editor of the popular Phoronix linux news site about a release of an Open Source videogame was later manually removed(2). The reason cited was the game developer's unacceptable views on social issues such as gender equality (3).
The release story was titled "Xonotic-Forked ChaosEsqueAnthology Sees New Release - Phoronix" and can be accessed via the google cache(4).
With the recent inclusion of a code of conduct(5) for those wishing to contribute to the Linux Kernel some questions now need to be asked and answered about the inclusion of code from people who are known to engage in or promote socially unacceptable attitudes or harrasments of those whom the free-software movement would prefer to attract in their place:
* Are the social or political views of an author of free software relevant to that software's inherent quality?
* Should the beliefs of an opensource developer weigh when when evaluating whether a piece of opensource software is worthy of any publicity or public notice?
* Should men with unpopular or "forbidden" views be excised from the opensource movement and "not allowed" to contribute, in a manner similar to that which is done in employment?
* Has the free/opensource software movement changed in these respects since its founding? If so is this a positive change?
* Should there be gatekeepers to opensource that decide who may and who may not contribute. Should abusive developers be "blackballed" to maintain proper social order and controls?
and
* What are the consequences of not doing this
Citations:
(0) Past related incident: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1310
(1) http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/...
(2) Removed story URL: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.p...
(3) http://www.phoronix.com/forums...
"Fortunately, the article has been removed now."
"Thanks everybody for speaking up."
(4) https://webcache.googleusercon...
(5) Linux "Code of Conflict"
http://whatwillweuse.com/fodde...
While I agree we shouldn't try too hard to even the genders in coding, saying that females coders bring nothing to the table that men bring is nonsense.
This isn't a comment about the sex ratio specifically, but if the Silicon Valley brogrammer echo chamber wasn't quite so monolithic, maybe we wouldn't have so much privacy-destroying crapware.
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
I'm impressed so many people completely missed the point. It's almost as if you don't want to understand the issue...
Required reading for internet skeptics
Quite simple, really. The PUA/MRA/GG groupthink echo chamber has decided that it is true. Therefore it is true.
It's almost as if you're fucking retarded and should shut the fuck up and build something.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
I might have expected that one... Let's cut through this quick:
We can all accept that she made mistakes using those examples. They do not support the points or arguments she makes.
Moving on, can you speak to any of the actual points she's made? So far, all I get are "her example isn't right so we should dismiss everything she says on the basis of those few mistakes." You'll find that you can dismiss anything on that basis. It's completely irrational.
If you are not seeing the videos and posts that address the points she was making,
Well, you haven't managed to come up with anything. If it exists, please, point it out.
Required reading for internet skeptics
Really? "You're right, but you're wrong" is a terrible response. If you start with a faulty premise, the rest of your argument does not magically become correct.
STOP INSULTING THEM.
The amount of insults towards a female poster in an open source forum is totally and absolutely ridiculous. Any sign of the girl being smart results in an almost immediate mirage of insults from the open source community. And that is basically in every single open source forum.
The biggest problem the open source community has is the collection of complete and totally anti-social / nonprofessional jerks they have in too many of the development teams.
And no, I'm not a woman. I'm just a guy who is intelligent enough to see reality for what it truly is.
I can't speak for other people, but personally I do value documentation. Not that I want to spend all my time documenting someone else's work, but when I need to learn about something, documentation is invaluable. No, it isn't as fun as writing code, but that doesn't make it useless. If someone else wants to contribute to FOSS and isn't a coder, but can do tech writing, I for one would appreciate their contribution to documentation.
I value documentation as well.
The problem is that the people changing the code out from under the documentation, so that the documentation quickly becomes out of date, or, worse, incorrect and misleading, is those people who are doing that to the code *not appreciating* the documentation effort.
At worst, there needs to be an agreement that things will stay the same for a while, or for at least a major version number, before the documentation goes out of date. And as you've noted with git: when things grow organically and incrementally, it's going to be near impossible to keep the docs in lock-step with the code -- particularly if the only way to make them match up is reverse engineering the code until you know enough about it to document it accurately and completely.
At one point in time, I wrote a rather complete internals book on FreeBSD; but the OS changed out from under the book too quickly, and so it was inaccurate, except for a particular major revision. And even then, there were sufficient differences even in the point releases (to the odd minor version number) that, unless I'd included a CDROM set or DVD with the book itself, there was no way that it was going to be useful for its intended purpose as a college textbook.
So yeah, documentation would be nice, but it's only going to get there as a divided labor effort if we agree to write design documents up front, and then follow a cathedral model for both the docs and the code that come out of those designs.
I think one of the major problems is that when you make something understandable by documenting it ... it makes it a whole lot easier for someone to step in and know how to "improve" things, until the docs are out of date again. At least, that has been my personal experience.
Amazing yourself. The fact that you are unable to comprehend the big scary ideas in my OP says that YOU are the problem, not I. Shut the fuck up and build something.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Call me old-fashioned, but I think that's an improvement over slashcirclejerk.
One time my band (from America) was in Denmark opening for a Finnish band. Before the show, we all sit down to dinner together, but each group is talking amongst itself in its own tongue. But at one point one of the Finns goes (in English) "I feel sorry for Americans - wherever you go, people can understand what you're saying." Indicating that
1) he speaks English
2) he's been listening, and
3) (implied) too bad you stupid Americans don't speak any other languages.
Well some of us do speak other languages, but not Finnish because let's just say that's pretty far down the fucking priority list. So I say: "Really? I feel sorry for the Finns because noboby CARES what you're saying."
Moral of the story: Linus Torvalds deep-throats donkey dicks.
Oh my gosh,
The Dice shill posted a SWJ story! My head is about to explode.
Non-quantifiable nonsense. "Programming" or "coding" are nonsense, just like amateurs without proper background designing bridges and electrical systems. What matters is SOFTWARE ENGINEERING and all that matters in engineering is MEETING THE SPEC! In this regard the programming world is terribly dysfunctional, far beyond any considerations of the proportions of women vs. men.
Unless you can come up with some sort of research that shows quantifiable, objective measurements such as: that when men AND woman collaborate on software engineering projects that the result is smaller, faster, more reliable solutions??? Then there might be something worth considering real about the hypothesis that there is something about one's GENDER that makes them able to come up with fundamentally different kinds of solutions, such that having a deficit of women is therefore predictive of non-optimal results.
However, considering that programming is ultimately just mathematics and logic, I strongly suspect that the exact opposite would be proven, if such terribly costly and time consuming objective measurements could actually be made--that highly mature programmers regardless of gender, converge to quite similar approaches to solving programming problems, when the ultimate criteria for correctness are SPECS. and the merit functions are purely based on code size and execution speed.
Not kidding. My transgender friend considered it her trial by fire to get hit on by Richard M. Stallman after her quite successful transformation. And one of of our bridesmaids had to turn him down at a convention, and found out he hit on her mother before she was born. The man will pursue anything remotely feminine.
Unfortunately, this shows why books are kinda obsolete for anything that's still under development. For things like awk, sed, grep, etc., they're great, because those things haven't changed much in ages. For a whole OS, not so much; they're all changing constantly. There is an e-book on git at git-scm.org, but being an e-book it gets updated, plus it seems like git has stabilized now.
I'm not so sure the cathedral model is really necessary for a competent and motivated tech writer however. As long as the tech writer can navigate git (using a GUI program like gitk or TortoiseGit or whatever), they can follow the development of the project and then update the documentation soon after changes are made, having the doc updates ready in time for major releases.
But for anything that's still under active development, the docs are always going to be going out-of-date unless someone keeps them up-to-date. This is true of any software project. You can't use a book about Windows Vista for Windows 10.
Because if we take you at your word and then ask for some of that respect ourselves, you say "fuck off, white man".
Actually no. Programming is the imaginations of humans spelt out through mathematics and logic. I am not talking about making optimal code I was talking about new realizations to solving problems. Solving the same problems in another language or faster is not always necessarily all that important except that this reduction allows accomplishments unachievable thus affording new imaginations to wander where we have not tred. The more people we have of different schooling and emotional approaches provides more solutions. When all you have is a hammer then everything is a nail. I am not saying magically more women in CS makes for a better field, just refuting that they contribute nothing. This is why I stressed everyone is different. We all solve problems differently. Some of us obsess over them which provides the concentration needed at times but at other times derails our self. Some of us walk away and bike ride, lightly reflecting and waiting for a Eureka moment that might never come. Likely, most of us do a mix of these strategies. Do you think women and men are not on average emotionally different? Collectively, differences provide more opportunity as we are casting the net wider.
This sort of environment is going to repel a significant proportion of men as well.
There sure is a lack of women in sanitation engineering. I think there should be a nationwide effort to have women enter the sanitation engineering workforce. I mean it's completely dominated by men, so it's time for women to step up and start helping clean the smelly sewer systems.
"But that's not how it works in real life."
It's only that, well, yes it is. The vast majority of open source software projects, either successful or not, are the creation of just one single person. See? "person", as in "I don't give a damn if they are man, woman or aliens from XK-578".
Anyone can, say, open an account at github and publish their code to their leisure, accept patches from whoever they want and publish about their code and the community of users and developers they want to build around it as much as they want. It's difficult to think of any other human activity more agnostic to personal identity than producing software. And still, there's a gender bias: maybe it comes from somewhere different.
Dice.com is trying to exploit women for clicks
Not sure where the hell you're getting your info, but I'm a Department of Defense contract software engineer, and there's not a fucking brogrammer to be found.. but we do have 20 percent of our team who are kick-ass female engineers. They don't seem to think the ratio is an issue (they both got into the scene in the early 90s), so why should you?
Slashdot has gone from having great Linux news, to being a mouthpiece for the PC / SJW crowd.
There won't be massive of women in coding because they just aren't interested in it. Deal with it.
The issue is that you can do whatever you like.. but nobody is going to coddle you or cheerlead you. You're not special. Women are not special. There are no snowflakes.
Do you have a cite for any, and I mean ANY of your childish overly-emotional assertions?
You are missing the point. People have free agency.. free will.. do what you like, and if it's worth something, others may help. Otherwise, sit in the fucking corner until you mature. The rest of us won't care, don't care, and life will go on as it always has. Let me guess, you're one of the little douchebags that champion folks like Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn with their vapid arguments at the goddamned United Nations.
Big scary idea's like "This problem everyone is talking about doesn't exist"? Compelling arguments like "you're retarded".
You've got to be kidding me!
Required reading for internet skeptics
Diversity in remains an issue in hospitals across the nation, with hospital administrators and head nurses publicly upset over a lack of men in nursing roles. And things don't look like they will be improving any time soon. In a shocking recent poll of men, when asked if they wanted to get into nursing, 95% of those polled said "I'm not f**king interested".
I don't understand your point. Do you not work for a Silicon Valley monoculture tech company, or are you admitting responsibility for producing privacy-destroying crapware for the government?
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
I agree!
We're only hurting ourselves by accepting these kinds of behaviors.
Required reading for internet skeptics
Nah, sounds like you should build something instead of expecting an already established community to cater to your whims.
Brogramming was a hoax. Anyone still taking it seriously is either an idiot or has an agenda.
(which is not to say there aren't a few actual bros out there programming. And a few programmers doing the whole life-imitates-art thing, but they're in the idiot category)
Thanks for the awesome lesson in stuff and all, you are real smart. My head was all confused with wrong thinking before you helped me out.
http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-...
The problem is that women generally have other things of interest in their lives besides coding. Find a way to ruin their social lives, and a few more might just turn to coding instead of chocolate. It's a numbers game.
I'm starting a campaign to get more women into movies with Shawshank in the title.
From https://www.marxists.org/archi...
For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a particular, exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from which he cannot escape. He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic. This fixation of social activity, this consolidation of what we ourselves produce into an objective power above us, growing out of our control, thwarting our expectations, bringing to naught our calculations, is one of the chief factors in historical development up till now.
Show me where I said that. The fact that you can't comprehend what I said says more about you than it does me. Now, shut the fuck up and build something you fucking idiot.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
You're missing the point entirely. I'd say intentionally.
The sort of adolescent behavior you're defending not only contributes nothing, but is actively harmful to any project. This is very simple. By allowing or encouraging that behavior, you're actively working against the best interests of the project.
All other issues aside, you can not justify that behavior on any rational or technical grounds. It's simply not possible.
You're telling me to build something. Well, I have. So have many other people. We've done it without waving our dicks around and grunting. We've done it without alienating potential contributors or fellow coworkers. We've done it without abusive language, bullying, or intimidation.
Those things are not only unnecessary, they're harmful to the project. By harmful I mean directly harmful. Agitated developers don't work as efficiently. Time spent chest-thumping and dick-measuring is time not spent working toward the project's goals. It also happens to chase out developers who don't want to waste their time dealing with petulant children when they could be contributing something.
I build things. You waste time with petty insults. Go Build Something and quit all this whining and complaining. It's not productive.
Required reading for internet skeptics
^This poster gets it. If I find myself in a so-called "toxic community", I will leave. If I find what that toxic community is doing, production wise, valuable, I will do it myself and try to create a community that is less toxic for me. In my case, I was/am a punk rock kid of the 80s/90s. You want to talk about toxic? The entirety of mainstream America was, in my esteem, toxic. Then in the punk scene itself? The straight-edge vegans and the pc punks were both insufferable. Instead of trying to browbeat everyone into what I thought was the "ideal" punk rock scene (inclusive rather than trying to be a cool kid), I did it myself. I started my own bands with my friends and before you know it, we had a rather large following of punks who had the same sort of inclusive, can do attitude I had. Sure, I can complain about how self-righteous cuntbags the sXe/hardline kids were, or how super sensitive idiotic the PC Punks where, but what good does that do? Do it yourself and don't worry about what other people think. Lead by example instead of whinging about every perceived slight. Shut the fuck up and build something.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
the barriers to entry are absolutely fucking zero
You're welcome.
Now, shut the fuck up and build something you fucking idiot.
I do build things. I find that I'm far more productive when I'm not wasting my time making petty insults and trying to prove that my dick is bigger than the guy next to me.
You should try it some time. You'll find you get a lot more accomplished.
Required reading for internet skeptics
Build your own fucking community, run by your rules. Shut the fuck up and build something.
Despite how disturbed I am by your attitude, I have to admit you may be on to something.
Maybe it's time for female coders to have a github of their own.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
Maybe try and talk about African Americans and you'll realize the tech industry is a bastion of backwards social behavior. Apart from your token Black you see here and there, racism is alive and well in tech companies. And of course it's all Obama's fault! He has driven this country into the ground!
Only a stupid company (or project or what-have-you) would fail to take advantage of billable hours
They made full use of the billable hours pool without regard to race or gender or talent (at least that's how it appeared to me from the outside). And that's the real answer: Make sure there are no untoward barriers to billing the customer, and then make use of the billable hours that presents itself.
FTFY.
At these large consultant shops, then as now, talent is not important, you don't get paid for talent or getting the job done quickly. You get paid for billable hours, the more the merrier.
And what's with all the GPL/RMS hate these days? I remember back in they day, RMS was a hero and everyone wanted to "free the code."
Nowadays, it's more like "fuck you for not letting me make money off of your hard work!"
Feminists believe meninism is a real thing and not mocking feminists. So why would you expect them to not realize that brogramming is also a ruse? It's easy to fling feminists into a tizzy. 4chan does it all the time by introducing bullshit hashtags that they just gobble the fuck up.
> We can all accept that she made mistakes using those examples.
If one's entire argument is *based* on a faulty premise, it invalidates that argument.
If your world view is *based* on invalid arguments and faulty premises, then you're going to have a warped perspective on things.
*Sometimes*, the little details paint a larger picture. :)
The problem is that you're half-right. Men and women approach problems differently, and neither is necessarily better, overall. However, in the specific domain of programming, I think there's a certain amount of evidence that the way men approach problems is vastly more effective, leading to a gender imbalance in the competent end of the spectrum.
There are other tasks where a feminine approach is more effective... and neither of these approaches is completely determined by gender, but just general proclivities. Trying to force gender balance in every domain is foolish, and unfair to both genders.
Talk about stereotypes. Another thing. I have never seen so much hi mod swearing in a Slashdot topic. Why?
>In the United States, as late as the 1880s most States set the minimum age at 10-12, (in Delaware it was 7 in 1895).[8] Inspired by the "Maiden Tribute" female reformers in the US initiated their own campaign[9] which petitioned legislators to raise the legal minimum age to at least 16, with the ultimate goal to raise the age to 18. The campaign was successful, with almost all states raising the minimum age to 16-18 years by 1920.
First things the cunts did when they gained power.
If you count stock, I sold my business for a XXX digit sum. It was grown from the ground up. It was created at the cusp, highly immature and risky as hell. Yet it succeeded. It thrived. It grew and, as the sphere matured, it grew in ways I'd have never expected. The compute power increases made us thrive and manipulate data in new and interesting ways - also, we could store data that was impossibly large just a few years before.
Now, to share a few things...
We were merit based. I'm not hiring you just because you have a vagina.
We had multiple women employees and they were very good at what they did.
We were, at times, assholes to one another - bad work means you do it again.
We had an unbelievably low turn-over rate - truly mind blowing.
We didn't give a shit who you slept with but you don't need to bring that shit into the office.
We probably, eventually, knew your family and wept when you did or celebrated with you.
We did things thought impossible, or improbable, on a regular basis.
We only wanted the best and not some absurd hire because of hurt feelings or supposed inequality.
We had multiple races - including myself.
Screw those who argue that things shouldn't be based on merit. It's infantile and absurd at the very front. Where you pee from or who you love hasn't a damned thing to do with it. If you can't do the work get the fuck out of the way and stop trying to hinder those who can. You don't deserve shit, you earn it. You don't even earn it on your own - you earn it with the help of those around you. Your drama and juvenile fantasies have no place in the real world. You can rightly fuck off back to your basement if you don't comprehend this - it's not difficult.
However, don't worry. We did open-invite interviews where you'd be reviewed by your peers before hiring. You'd have not made it past the interview process. Keep your drama queen shit off my code and out of my face.
Simple enough? The conversation has been had, it's over. Whining isn't going to change this. It's just going to piss people off even more. What you can do is what matters. If you can't do then shut the hell up and learn from those who can. Keep your drama to your friends. I'm not your friend.
[sum total redacted, none of your business and I don't need my ego stroked - suffice to say a lot]
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
You're missing the point entirely. I'd say intentionally.
The sort of adolescent behavior you're defending not only contributes nothing, but is actively harmful to any project.
Citation needed. People being dicks have managed teams that produce the most well-known products on the planet, continuing over decades - see Linus, RMS and Jobs. Asshole-ish behaviour gets rewarded by the masses *because* it produces what people want.
This is very simple. By allowing or encouraging that behavior, you're actively working against the best interests of the project.
Only if the behaviour is harmful to the project. There is no evidence that this is the case.
All other issues aside, you can not justify that behavior on any rational or technical grounds. It's simply not possible.
You're telling me to build something. Well, I have. So have many other people. We've done it without waving our dicks around and grunting.
Well, so have I. I've actively contributed to the Linux kernel too. And other stuff (opensource) too. So what?
We've done it without alienating potential contributors or fellow coworkers. We've done it without abusive language, bullying, or intimidation.
Those things are not only unnecessary, they're harmful to the project.
Citation needed.
By harmful I mean directly harmful. Agitated developers don't work as efficiently. Time spent chest-thumping and dick-measuring is time not spent working toward the project's goals. It also happens to chase out developers who don't want to waste their time dealing with petulant children when they could be contributing something.
I build things. You waste time with petty insults. Go Build Something and quit all this whining and complaining. It's not productive.
You are actively avoiding the point that open-source is the ultimate meritocracy - anyone who whines that they do not feel welcome in project $FOO is free to start a project $BAR.
It only takes a single developer to start an open-source project that is independent of existing projects. If none/few are started by your favoured $CLASS of people you cannot blame the existing projects for not being welcoming to your $CLASS of people.
It only takes one person to start a project. You are asking "Why aren't more women joining projects?", we are asking "Why aren't more women starting projects?". In the latter question there is no FUD around "toxic environments", "brogrammer culture", etc - yet the women aren't there in numbers anyway.
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
You best get used to this shit.
The internet! Where nobody knows what race, religion, or sex you are!
We ALL get that true equality we all claim to want!
NOBODY gets any special treatment at all. Nobody gives a fuck who or what you are.
Only what you SAY and DO matters.
And holy shit that pisses women off altho they won't admit it.
A lifetime of special treatment and being told they're a princess... gone.
So whats the first thing most women do....
Tell everyone online they're female trying to gain back that special treatment.
They're so suprised when it backfires time and again as they're really telling everyone they're a shallow stupid spoiled princess who deserves MORE for reasons that don't matter to anyone online at all...
My post was about people behaving in an unprofessional and discriminatory fashion. Something the moderators appear to support.
Being able to do the job matters. Being openly toxic towards your fellow workers is grounds for dismissal.
Just because your company succeeded despite people being abusive towards each other does not mean it's the ideal way to do business.
You'd have not made it past the interview process. Keep your drama queen shit off my code and out of my face.
Relax. I would never have wanted to work for you anyway. Besides, you couldn't possibly have paid me enough.
.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
Except you've got the context wrong. I was referring to IBM as it
existed some while ago, before they joined the billable hours ratrace
that you describe all too well.
You have replied to nearly every significant comment, but all you post is negativity. You have repeatedly said "there is no way to win" well, what would winning look like to you? If you want other people to do things for you, or to view you a certain way, well that isn't ever going to happen. We have several wars going on in the world over religious differences right now. Religious differences about the same god. Gender is far, far more powerful than religion and we cant just stop everyone from doing their own thing with their belief system.
If you want to win, whatever that means to you, it must be achievable in the first place. That begins by creating a goal that you can be achieved without the approval of anyone else.
When I collaborate on a coding project with someone, I care about their coding skills, not their sex. I want to get a project done, not fuck them.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Only when it comes to science and related fields. They may still be the oppressed underdogs when trying to become driving instructors.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
You have to admit, Slashdot comments were pretty depressing today.
FWIW, my comment was not "there is no way to win", but "there is no way to win, apparently". What I meant by this (and I thought it was clear in context, but that might just be me) is that the crowd doesn't have a consistent position, so there's no point trying to appease it. That's pretty much what you said, so I think we're on the same page there.
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
Get more open source into women.
_________________________________
Woman explaining open source to a guy
"This is closed source"
Lifts her tee
"This is open source"
Build something and PROVE YOUR POINT or fuck off back to your basement with your nasal whinging. It is merit based. You have no merit. If you want some then earn some. Get the fuck up off your ass and do something constructive. If you're right and your way is better you will attract the best and brightest. That's how it works. You don't get to whine and change the existing projects. Build your own. Enough people have explained this to you - there it is in nice simple language anyone can understand.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Nice try. but like three anonymous cowards whined about it and the rest wished him good luck or were entirely off topic. If you are going to go for revisionist history you should probably wait until the article is a little further from the front page. (I suppose it could have changed since I last read it but that's how it was when I read it. Everyone, for the most part, including myself was wishing him good luck and hoping that they'd push and pull.)
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
All your fucking sjw-cunt driven communities ended up as beeing even more toxic than the existing meritocracy-based ones.
But go ahead, make your own #killallmen or whatever kernel and see how it goes along.
Hint: compiler-kin is ruthless.
Fair point. I said "Slashdot comments", but that was faulty memory on my part; Slashdot wasn't the only outlet where this story was covered today. Sorry about that.
It's still true that you can't win, but this has always been the case.
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
I wonder if there are equal efforts to get more men into projects like community quilts, bake sales, etc? This may seem flippant, but why should it be important that women are not spending their spare time on one sort of hobby/social project, but less important that not many men spend time on others?
Hmm... First you say:
If by "calling her out on her bullshit" you mean misrepresenting her ideas to mean whatever you want them to mean and then "debunking" that?
Then they say:
If you are not seeing the videos and posts that address the points she was making, you should know something that some people suffer from confirmation bias and really only look in their own echo chambers for information.
Then you say:
Well, you haven't managed to come up with anything. If it exists, please, point it out.
And:
We can all accept that she made mistakes using those examples.
Might I suggest that you're too close to the problem and unable to opine objectively? You ask for evidence, you get evidence, you agree with evidence, you dismiss the evidence, you then continue to believe what you've already decided even though you agree with the evidence provided.
As an outside looking in, I'm not a gamer, it does appear that this whole "gamergate" thing is indeed about a developer fucking a reporter in order to get better reviews and that being unethical. Some of those gamers take their games pretty damned seriously and want ethical reporting and full disclosure before they pay good sums of money for their entertainment. They were then shit on and told that they were just sexist for wanting to have ethics in reporting.
Now, sure, at that point they kind of jumped the shark... I don't disagree. Since then we've had unplayable games released that were praised yet simply appear to be being praised because of the gender or sexuality of the developer. And again, the gamers went off the rails. Seeing a pattern start to develop here? I am... I bet it is different than what you see. I see the problem going back to ethics in journalism and the industry as a whole.
Anyhow, this does indeed tie in to the overall subject of the thread and it relates to your sub thread but I don't think you can actually help. You're unable to be objective - your mind is clearly made up. I've seen your other posts in this thread. Your bias is evident and no amount of evidence, as you show above, is going to allow you to be honest with yourself.
That's okay, humans aren't rational generally. You're irrationally basing your opinions due to feelings and that's okay. We're not rational machines, we're rationalizing machines.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
What is in it for women? It is honest question, I am a women. And I find it weird that when activists push for more women x in lately, they often forget to answer "why would that be good for women" question. I do not mean to imply that being in open source would be inherently worst for women then it is for men. But, activists pretend to do it for sake of us. And when you seek to change my behavior for the sake of me, I want to know what I am supposed to gain or loose by that.
For instance, the goal of closing pay gap and the goal of getting more women to open source go against each other. When I code for free, I am not coding for money. So dear activist, which one and why?
Problem is there are two distinct types of documentation, both of which are usually lacking in open source projects. User and developer. Poor developer documentation is understandable but still not really acceptable. Poor user documentation is unforgivable.
Women coders working on an Open Source fork of the Linux kernel ?
(INB4 of course, a fork of the kernel must be OSS..)
Actually, they are trying to get more men into teaching. As in, there are whole conferences about it. They just do not have twitter warrior department, so you do not know about it.
"That is exactly what these vagina counters are doing to men in STEM occupations - they aren't creating new jobs for women, they are taking jobs away from men to give to women"
Women are taking your jobs away exactly as other men are taking your jobs away. Whenever someone convince or advise a boy to study stem, newsflash, that boy is taking a job from you. I do not see you complaining about general "get kids into stem" pushes. You have no superior right for that job then any women.
I was lucky enough not to encounter sexists like you in my real career. Maybe radfem are just women unlucky enough to run into men like you too much.
absolutely. Now the feminazis are beginning to mess up open source with their feel-good-but-no-merit ideology. Isn't it enough what's going on with gaming? All this 'objectification' issues... thought control... people cannot even escape the feminist nightmare of real life in a computer game any more. I will personally fork open source projects when the project leaders will begin to submit to this bulls* feminist ideology. Because the software is supposed to work, and I don't care if some feminist feels good while accomplishing nothing.
There are no quotas. No jobs are being lost. This is not about getting unqualified people into coding, but qualified people of all types. It's the same old story, people see someone of a different race in college and their first thought was "must be affirmative action, since my C+ cousin was denied his first choice of schools". Now it's just about women. People bitch and whine "it shouldn't matter what their gender is as long as they're competent", but that is *exactly* what is being asked. No one is asking for unqualified women to get into coding, but that is the myth being put forward by the anti-SJW people. We know women are as good as men in this field, so what is wrong with encouraging them to go back into it. No one is keeping a quota except for the misogynists, and no one is being kicked out of their jobs or hobbies. But apparently to you people an encouragement to voluntarily take up open source coding is supposed to be some over-the-top feminism run amuck.
Seriously, what scares you people that you would lie like this? You make the 60s era segregationist jerks look mature in comparison.
You ask for evidence, you get evidence,
Your mistake is thinking that what was presented was evidence against the points she was trying to make. A bad example doesn't invalidate the claim, or address the claim in any way, it's simply a bad example.
Let's try a (bad) example: I claim that most US presidents were straight white males, and offer Hoover as an exemplar. You say that Hoover wasn't straight as you believe him to be a cross dresser. Does my bad example invalidate my claim? Does your argument address the point, or just example?
This isn't complicated.
it does appear that this whole "gamergate" thing is indeed about a developer fucking a reporter in order to get better reviews and that being unethical.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Though it should be noted that none of what you describe ever happened. No female developers slept with any journalists in exchange for favorable reviews. It was a lie from the start. A lie which you obviously believed.
Required reading for internet skeptics
...
You assert that X is true. I show that X is not true. You agree X is not true. You insist X is true.
I think we're done here.
~KGIII - slashdot is being a prick at the moment
Only if the behaviour is harmful to the project. There is no evidence that this is the case.
Except for all of the evidence. Developers leaving, numerous accounts of developers refusing to contribute due to the hostility found on LKML, the unimaginable waste of time from the needless flame wars that list is famous for producing. The list goes on.
Linux thrives in spite of the hostility, which has very obviously harmed the project.
You are actively avoiding the point that open-source is the ultimate meritocracy - anyone who whines that they do not feel welcome in project $FOO is free to start a project $BAR.
It's completely irrelevant to the point under discussion here. If you're unhappy with the topic, stop whining about it and go start your own discussion.
You are asking "Why aren't more women joining projects?", we are asking "Why aren't more women starting projects?".
So why hijack this discussion? If you want to talk about something else, go start your own discussion!
Required reading for internet skeptics
It's clearly not a zero sum game, and there are clearly not enough men to fill all available jobs which is why companies are trying to get some many foreigners in on work visas.
More over, the idea that CS should be "protected" from having more women enter because it might create a bit of competition for men is simple misogyny. Would you advocate closing down CS courses and denying younger guys the opportunity to study it, just to protect your job?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
As an outside looking in, I'm not a gamer, it does appear that this whole "gamergate" thing is indeed about a developer fucking a reporter in order to get better reviews and that being unethical.
No, gamergate was about a FALSE ACCUSATION about a developer fucking a reporter to get better reviews.
They were then shit on and told that they were just sexist for wanting to have ethics in reporting.
The irony is strong in using a mis-reported accusation to attack someone in the name of ethics.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Open source works best when it is a community. While there are millions of little projects that are buy one person alone, all the big ones (Linux, BSD, LibreOffice, GIMP, KDE, Gnome, GNU tools, GCC, LLVM, Inkscape, EMACS, Vi... the list is huge) are the result of many people collaborating.
The old "just work on your own" trope is simply a way to exclude people from a community. It's offering an alternative to being part of the community, rather than addressing the reasons why the community is difficult to join. Imagine if someone suggested that black people could just go and live somewhere else, they don't have to live in this particular suburb that happens to be full of white people. Don't create problems or animosity, just live and work somewhere else.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
The problem you seem to have here, aside from the ability to communicate effectively, is that you think that criticizing something means you want to force that thing to change.
That's not how it works. You can offer criticism without demanding change. Stating what is is not the same as demanding it become what you believe it ought to be. I can also believe something ought to change and say as much without forcing or even wanting to force something to conform to my ideal.
You're free to continue to waste time and effort on pointless flame wars and alienate contributors with your toxic environments in your projects. That's all up to you. I will not. When I build things, I do not allow the kind of hostility that you seem to think is important. I've found that developers are much more productive when they're not busy sending angry messages and fuming over the latest hail of insults.
If you're right and your way is better you will attract the best and brightest. That's how it works.
That's interesting as it seems that the Linux kernel actively alienates the best and the brightest. What does that tell you about that approach?
Required reading for internet skeptics
Can you imagine the shitstorm if female coders started forking OSS projects just because the original had a community that was hostile to them? Actually, it's really easy because you can simply compare these two stories:
Man forks Linux over LKML culture: http://linux.slashdot.org/stor...
Woman leaves LKML over culture: http://linux.slashdot.org/stor...
The guy is just being professional and doing the right thing by walking away and creating a fork. The women is a moaning feminist bitch who should just man up and deal with shit, instead of walking away. It's a double standard, where women are assumed to be acting out of weakness and an urge to nag/misandry.
If you are a women, you can't win. Either you are too weak willed and complaining about nothing, or you have a huge advantage over men, or you are bitch who screams sexism constantly and keeps accusing men of harassing you to get them fired, or you should just fuck off and do your own thing because men just want to be dicks and leave us alone with your feminist clap-trap.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Only if the behaviour is harmful to the project. There is no evidence that this is the case.
Except for all of the evidence. Developers leaving, numerous accounts of developers refusing to contribute due to the hostility found on LKML, the unimaginable waste of time from the needless flame wars that list is famous for producing. The list goes on.
Linux thrives in spite of the hostility, which has very obviously harmed the project.
This "fact" is not obvious. What is obvious is that they are *thriving*. You see "chasing away the good devs", they see "keeping the accountable devs".
You are actively avoiding the point that open-source is the ultimate meritocracy - anyone who whines that they do not feel welcome in project $FOO is free to start a project $BAR.
It's completely irrelevant to the point under discussion here. If you're unhappy with the topic, stop whining about it and go start your own discussion.
You are asking "Why aren't more women joining projects?", we are asking "Why aren't more women starting projects?".
So why hijack this discussion? If you want to talk about something else, go start your own discussion!
You inadvertently proved my point - I'm in a discussion with you, somebody who regularly lambasts others for not following your ideology, and yet .... I'm not threatened at all. If I was indeed threatened I will happily go off and start a new discussion. I will not accuse you of bigotry just because you want to discuss one question and I want to discuss another.
Back to the issue you're really trying to avoid - if existing OSS projects make women feel uncomfortable, why *aren't* they motivated enough to start their own? This is an individual decision for each person; they are either motivated enough to start a project or they are not. If they are not motivated enough to even start (regardless of gender) then OSS might not be a good fit for them anyway.
It's all about motivation. Men are highly motivated to start things. Maybe you should use your platform to motivate females instead of trying to get millions of individuals scattered throughout the world to adopt your ideology.
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Really, to think that some people are fighting for social justice... How shocking! I dare say, since the right of association was granted to the rabble, the good old world has steadily been falling apart.
Seriously, dont be so hyped up. The article doesnt say anything wrong. You want a break? Start by calming down, and typing your reply in lowercase. Or maybe not replying at all. I'm serious: this is partly what motivates the abundance of these "SJW" articles you dont like. Strong reactions lead to lots of replies lead to the editors posting the same type or article.
So why not? Why do you discourage people from encouraging women to go into open source?
Forcing morals on everyone else and telling them that if they don't accept it they're being discriminatory is not making things better.
Well, considering it's open source, you can just fork the code if you don't like the direction the project is taking, and if you do a better job, eventually you'll pick up contributors...
First lecture there were 100s of people including perhaps 10 women. A few weeks onward, about 20 people still attend, including 1 woman, 15 neck beards, and a few hipsters.
You see "chasing away the good devs", they see "keeping the accountable devs".
Even Linus admits he alienates developers. There's also numerous accounts of good developers who have left the project, sick of the toxicity. This isn't exactly a contentious point! The worst of the bunch even agrees with me here. I can only assume that you either don't know or that you're in denial.
(It's also no secret that they're perpetually short on reviewers. Why do you think that's the case?)
I'm in a discussion with you, somebody who regularly lambasts others for not following your ideology, and yet .... I'm not threatened at all. If I was indeed threatened I will happily go off and start a new discussion.
The problem, of course, is that you want to have an unrelated discussion. If you want to talk about something other than the topic at hand, you should go off and start your own discussion. This has nothing to do with threats, ideology, or whatever else you've imagined.
Maybe you should use your platform to motivate females instead of trying to get millions of individuals scattered throughout the world to adopt your ideology.
I know which side of history I'll find myself on. I don't need to do anything. We've seen this same scenario play out countless times before. Equality always wins out in the end. You can fight against it all you want, but tide has already turned. Outdated attitudes like yours are becoming less acceptable with each passing day. I'll bet you're aware of this and find it terrifying. I'm sorry about that. It's no fun being left behind.
I do find your suggestion a bit odd, given your position. You want me to "motivate females", yet you fight (fruitlessly) against every attempt to offer them a chance and equal opportunity, even going as far as to deny that the obstacles they uniquely face even exist. It's not terribly coherent. With any luck, that dissonance will give way to enlightenment and you'll be able to join the rest of civilized society in the brighter future we'll inevitably create.
Required reading for internet skeptics
I'm fairly undecided about the "more women as coders" issue. But you know what I am hugely passionate about?
It's also an area where, despite being toted as "no barriers to entry", there is huge underrepresentation, societal pressures, and quite frankly a HUGE need for different perspectives brought on by diversity.
What I'm talking about is the huge underrepresentation of coders dating supermodels. Yes, male coders. Overweight coders. With neckbeards. Living in mom's basement. And not being super rich.
So please help me to start my campaign to get more supermodels to date coders. The details of my crowdsourcing page will follow shortly.
Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
Matthew Garrett did just fork Linux and everyone in the Slashdot comments just whined about that
Provably false statement, since not everyone in the Slashdot comments just whined about that.
I don't know why you would lie about something like that.
You are not doing well at all in this discussion.
If you fear about your job in SEM/IT you must be one of the cleaning personel.
Even the most incompetent IT workers, and I meet on a daily basis dozens if not hundreds get only fired when they steal a laptop or commit sexual harrasment or any other more or less criminal action.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
FTFY.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
However, considering that programming is ultimately just mathematics and logic
For a climate simularion perhaps.
For a business application, mostly no.
Most programming is 90% control flow and a Little bit of persistence.
Or did you mean control flow when you said "logic"?
Most of programming is understanding what the bride and groom want to have as meals on the weddding party and: writing the cooking recipe accordingly.
If you can write a cooking recipe of one dish you cook regularily, then you can code.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
I'm somewhat surprised to see so many "let's get girls into technical job xyz" while we never see "get more men to be a nurse!" campaigns. Why is that? And what does this say about the perception of women to which this applies?
The problem here is not that women are under-represented in these kind of jobs; there are very likely good reasons for that that do not involve sexism. The real problem is that they're somehow still given a special treatment. I think this is really sexist; there's nothing that says "girls are special", "girls need help" more than these kind of initiatives. While I'd love to see more female colleagues (or more specifically: more colleagues:p) I don't think this is the right way.
In case women don't get equal chances, yes, let's campaign, but I strongly doubt such barriers still exist in any normal western country.
0x or or snor perron?!
You see "chasing away the good devs", they see "keeping the accountable devs".
Even Linus admits he alienates developers. There's also numerous accounts of good developers who have left the project, sick of the toxicity. This isn't exactly a contentious point! The worst of the bunch even agrees with me here. I can only assume that you either don't know or that you're in denial.
(It's also no secret that they're perpetually short on reviewers. Why do you think that's the case?)
All OSS projects are perpetually short on staff - even the the ones like Gnome, who have an outreach program for women. Are you also willing to argue that it's due to their policies that result in their short staffing problem?
I'm in a discussion with you, somebody who regularly lambasts others for not following your ideology, and yet .... I'm not threatened at all. If I was indeed threatened I will happily go off and start a new discussion.
The proble
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
In the good old days of mainframes, tabulating machines and to a time computers were groups of women doing boring calculations for researchers, there were plenty of women working in computing/mathematics related fields. They were the large majority of people working in the field, and had major contributions to computer science, e.g. Grace Hopper invented the first compiler.
But most women don't like male competition on the job, I don't mean competing, I mean males competing for dominance.
Male competition is partly responsible for long work hours, hostile work environments, socially destructive schedules and family unfriendly policies.
Men compete in ways that cause damage to bystanders, making life for women that want to have a life and a family outside work much more difficult.
... for Jewish nation-wreckers...
But for nobody else...
One point you are missing – Anita is not talking about how gamers actually play the game. For obvious reasons[1] gamers are not the target audience of her videos. Game developers are. On the "Hitman debacle", can you refer to the instance (ideally with the pointer to the time in the video) where she made the messed things up, because she uses the game in several examples I am not sure what you are talking about exactly.
[1] She is criticizing games for their plot, gameplay mechanics, visual representation, achievement systems etc. Things that are outside the control of the gamer.
Appeal and emotions, comfort and ecosystem, don't create expertise. Studying and working does. Spending 10 hours a day in the books rather than Tweeting and playing a keyboard warrior does.
Whether some field will appeal to someone or not is not based on how welcome they feel, but how interested they are in the field to start studying it before even considering any cultural and ecosystem crap in regards to it.
Someone who has ambitions and discipline doesn't think about how welcome they are somewhere, how "toxic" some ecosystem is, or how their image appears as; they think about how they can improve themselves and fucking work and study on the hobby/field they love, without regards to any external influence.
People who have no education or experience in a field and whine about how the field isn't appealing to them before they even started delving into it,
are simply people who are creating a mental wall to use as leverage to justify why they don't want to start studying and working in the first place to prove themselves by way of tangible accomplishments.
It's a lazy man's/woman's word play, and a shitty psychological game of catch 22.
If Marie Curie were alive, she would call these people, who talk of toxicity, idiots who talk too much but work too little.
Besides, this feminist crap is already over. Since 2012 Feminism has been getting more and more bad rep and digging out its own graves.
Big news sites don't even have the guts anymore to open comments on feminism related articles because general society has learned that feminism is now a secular vehicle for religious moralizing. Where there was support in comments for feminism around 2012, most people now make fun of it and see it for the BS it holds. The final nail was when feminists started shaming, defaming, and bullying that scientist guy for the sole trivial subjective reason of what garments he decided to wear. Garments ironically gifted to him by a female friend. This alone stank of what you see the religious police doing in some Middle Eastern countries.
it is to egalitarianism what Westboro Baptist Church is to Christianity.
Meritocracy or GFY.
While I agree we shouldn't try too hard to even the genders in coding, saying that females coders bring nothing to the table that men bring is nonsense. The sexes on average approach problems differently.
Wait a minute.
Just a few years ago it was drilled that men and women are the same. Now they are different again?
It's hard for me to keep up - can you SJWs please make up your rotten minds?
Any parasite wants to "make things more open and accessible". That is was parasites do.
"Inclusivity" is a prerequesite for parasitim.
Anybody who can pull his own weight does not need "inclusivity", does not need to "make things more open and accessible".
If we can get a little more hatred of the blacks and hispanics we can become a full-blown subsidiary of Stormfront!
Best Slashdot Co
Open source works best when it is a community. While there are millions of little projects that are buy one person alone, all the big ones (Linux, BSD, LibreOffice, GIMP, KDE, Gnome, GNU tools, GCC, LLVM, Inkscape, EMACS, Vi... the list is huge) are the result of many people collaborating.
And many of them (like Linux, Emacs, gcc, most GNU tools) were started by White men working on their own without any community whatsoever.
Even when Linus created git, he started it on his own and only let the community work on it later. - Even though he was already famous and would have had no problems of finding a community right from the start, it was better to work alone at first.
There is absolutely zero barriers for anybody to start their own, better projects.
But that is exactly what the SJWs NOT want to do. [b]They don't want to create anything, they want to take over things that were created by others.[/b]
They are parasites, plain and simple.
I use my visual center while programming, but most of what I call programming is thinking about the problem. When I'm coding, I'm not sure what I'm using. I cannot walk and discuss difficult problems because I will lose track of what is around me, sometimes even lose my balance as I model the problem visually in my head.
At least one time when I was going for a walk with my co-worker, we were discussing something very interesting to me and I nearly fell over because my visual orientation while shuffling stuff around in my head did not play well with my orientation in the real world. I had to suddenly stop walking and purposely focus on something in front of me to quickly regain my balance.
Another time I was sitting at my desk when I had a sudden moment of brilliance when working on designing a difficult system for nearly two weeks. When that happen, I had a huge rush of ideas that suddenly fell into place, causing my visual model to quickly take shape, during which time I noticed my actual vision started to tunnel, and I could not see anything outside of the center of my vision, and then I started to see sparkles. As soon as the moment was over, my vision returned to normal. I was mentally drained for the rest of the day.
So basically you are for segregation. Guys don't want women coming in to their existing communities, they would rather that they have their own separate ones. By your typical SJW logic, merely wanting to contribute is "taking over" and borderline harassment.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Your comment.
No it isn't. Some people are trying to make it an issue. The people that are in OSS development want to be there. The people that don't want to be there, never got into it or left it.
We are living in a society where whining pays off (Affirmative Action, etc.) and whining has worked numerous times in the past.
Of course they will try their proven tactics whenever they see something shiny they want. They do it because it works!
The point is that the meritless SJWs want to tell people of merit what to do.
If you want any respect: Earn it.
Otherwise we will respect you as much as you respect us - which is not at all.
Staying overnight in a computer lab so that you can get time on the machines is not something most people do these days.
Of course not. Those days are long gone now. Back than my C64 at home was very weak compared to the computers and servers in my lab. I had gopher, usenet, irc and MUDs of course I spent days in there. On C64 everything sucked, BASIC sucked, GEOS sucked the sw tools sucked.
And nowdays not anymore. My phone is powerful enough to do anything. There's internet on it. Fuck the lab.
narcc cannot build something.
You do not need to understand a whole of git to use it. That claim is simply not true.
The primary difference between documentation and code is that writing code is more fun then writing documentation. The secondary difference is that "wrote code for open source" can be used as proof of technical competence when looking for a job while "wrote documentation" is only little better as a proof of competence then "have a blog". At which point, it makes more sense to write your own blog then documentation to somebody elses project.
From what I seen, people willing to write docs are valued. Just about the only group that does not value documentation writing is a group of inexperienced programmers who did not worked on a real project yet. You had to pay for documentation because people wont do that kind of work for free, not because it would not be valued by project owners or community in general.
Staying overnight is not effective way of learning or working anyway, so I do not know what that does to do with anything. It is used as proof of passion, but also a mark of someone who does things in an irrational and ineffective way. That is just my opinion through.
Huh? When did I ever claim we were the same? Oh you mean some general rhetoric that you think I am party to. Hey dumbass I am my own person with my own opinion. I don't need to group in with anyone. You don't know me and obviously are not taking the time to understand what I am saying. I personally feel like the world does not need to cater to you and as such you need to take life by the reins and make it your own. This applies to everyone. I don't feel like their needs to be anything done to equal out gender distribution but recognize that different people and different sexes can create diverse code that might solve problems in new ways. It isn't that hard of a concept to understand.
The sort of adolescent behavior you're defending not only contributes nothing, but is actively harmful to any project.
Absolutely wrong.
When you respect those that have contributed something (= Meritocracy) you get contributors that feel respected and are therefore willing to contribute.
If you turn it into some SJW-convention where every idiot can get brownie-points based on his race, gender or perversion, then you may attract a lot of useless SJWs but you will lose the actual contributors because they no longer get respected because they are not "diverse" enough.
Get it through your head: We don't want you, we don't need you, you are parasites that are poison in every organization. You are not just useless, you are actually harmful.
Go away and die.
Yet for some strange reason "toxic" Linux is thriving while "diverse" Mozilla is stagnating or regressing since the SJWs have took it over.
Just for the record, I personally think that forks are good (and not "redundant" as is so often claimed).
I think it is great that I can have both OpenOffice and LibreOffice installed - and I don't want to kill off either.
Yeah, I know, I'm probably in the minority on that one...
I could be mistaken but I seem to recall that this was something they had admitted to. As an outsider, I suppose, I will defer to your knowledge.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
You absolutely and completely nailed it.
I think the target of her videos are SJWs.
So basically you are for segregation.
Hey, you're all for segregation when it comes to CS camps for girls. This is the same thing.
Girls don't like being told mean things on mailing lists, so let them creating their own forks with their own mailing lists that don't have none of that toxicity.
Your own words: "Before someone says it's sexist, it's not. It doesn't disadvantage boys, it merely helps girls get past some issues they face."
You sold your company for 3 figures? LOL!!
For some reason the law does not apply to white men.
The problem is, most software projects - be they in-house or open-source, tend to have a few scraps of documentation written at the beginning, then as the project takes shape, the basic premises mutate, but no one has the resources to go back and correct/enhance the original documentation. The actual app is full of unstated assumptions because the developers have been doing it so long that they've forgotten that some of that stuff isn't as intuitive as it seems to them. Or worse yet, stuff that's flat out misleading or wrong because of the early-stage changes.
That's a far bigger problem than the relatively smaller changes that come between software releases.
Good documentation requires good coding practices. It's now common practice for the developers to put in JavaDoc/Oxygen/whatever comments into the source code, but the next step up is to remember to explain in the comments what the module is actually supposed to do and give some samples of how its methods are supposed to be called. If you use the JavaDoc system to its maximum potential, you can produce quite literate docs, not just a brute-force enumeration of functions. Few do, however and that includes Sun/Oracle.
These source-bound docs can be used to create the internal documentation set/developer's guide. The next step is to produce usable user documentation. For that, it's usually better to have someone who's a documentation specialist with direct and immediate access to the developers. AND developers who aren't useless jerks who just blow the documenters off with "Read the Code!" AND, incidentally, it wouldn't hurt for code reviews to include comment reviews and witholding integration until the docs are accurate. There's too much artificial urgency in software development anyway.
These days we have really good resources for creating quality docs on a wiki-style platform, so that's the next level I'd shoot for.
Finally, however, a "frozen" copy in the form of an actual book-structured document is important to me. Sometimes I get lost wandering around the hyperlinks on a wiki. In fact, sometimes I'd really actually have a dead-tree reference than even an epub or PDF. Sure it's out of date the minute it's frozen, but the idea is that it's easier to take something that's chronologically consistent and interpolate the latest mods than puzzle through a bunch of stuff that's all over time and space.
And US government is controlled by Freemasons. Of course. What other explanation is there?
I thought you wanted segregation?
There is nothing stopping anyone from starting or contributing to an open source project and you know it. A code commit doesn't have your gender assigned to it.
Men go: "ooh, that sounds like a cool thing to do; it doesn't matter how many hours per week I work, that I don't have a life, that nobody will ever recognise my contribution, it's still cool and hey, doing it in my free time is even cooler!"
Women go: "why would I work in a field that has some of the lowest satisfaction scores, asks me to give up my personal life, and then on top of it also do that stuff for free? That's crazy!"
...or a woman...or a kid...or a grandma...or black...or gay...or whatever. Personally, I have never looked at code or used a library and thought...this looks like a woman wrote it. Code works or it doesn't. Who cares who wrote it? Some women may face discrimination in the workplace. Some may be hired and/or promoted simply because of their gender. I once had a woman on my team who wanted the company to lay her off for the severance package. She did just about everything she could do...come in late...leave early...play games...etc.. The company instead let other men go at layoff time. They wanted her in their stats.
People being dicks have managed teams that produce the most well-known products on the planet, continuing over decades - see Linus, RMS and Jobs. Asshole-ish behaviour gets rewarded by the masses *because* it produces what people want.
That's three examples, and just in the tech industry. There are plenty of non-assholes in the tech industry as a whole, and even more in other industries.
It is more true to say that Linus et al are successful *despite* being asshole-ish.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Women have never been shunned from Open Source development, at least to my knowledge.
How much effort should be expended to facilitate diversity among programmers?
None. People who are interested in computers, programming, etc will get into it if they think it lines up with the goals for their life. If they're good at it, then people will want to work with them. There is nothing worse than having a shitty coder on your team. You will end up having to wait for them to fix their stuff and/or fix it for them. You will also spend a frustrating amount of time trying to explain things to them too. The compiler doesn't care who wrote the code. Why should executives and project managers be upset with anything other than quality code being delivered on time? Many teams are pretty diverse already. The last thing that's needed is some "token coders" in order to please a bunch of SJW types.
Can anything be done to shift the demographics?
Why bother? It is still a relatively well paid job despite the efforts of many companies to swamp it with H1-B losers. People of all types like to earn money, so if they're smart, are good at math/logic, and don't mind working hard, they will be welcomed.
Recognize that there is no justification for the treatment received by Anita Sarkeesian for challenging sexim in games, that would help.
99% of the treatment she calls harassment is people calling her out on her bullshit. She spins this into "Its because I'm a woman/feminist", but the reality is its just the internet doing what it does best: Calling you out publicly on your bullshit. She is also a public figure at this point, and as such, has been receiving what plenty of public figures get - Non-credible death threats and some pretty mean tweets. So what you are saying is that we should treat her different because she is a woman? Or are you being sexist and not saying that all harassment of that nature is bad, but you will only defend it because it is happening to a woman?
1% of a large number is a large number. Adolescent name calling is one thing, escalating it into death threats (whether "credible" or not) is unacceptable whether the victim is male or female.
Especially when all the person is doing is discussing something trivial like video game entertainments. I mean, who gives a fuck apart from dysfunctional twelve year olds?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
you stupid fat bitches
Shara Shanukah fart fart fart
A couple of things, first Nathan Grayson did admit to sleeping with the dev, but he claimed it was days after he'd written his last article about her. Sorry if I find that a little to coincidental. In any case, Nathan did write about her, he was also thanked in the game he shilled for her, he didn't disclose any of that.
https://archive.today/5IBg1
http://archive.is/WtK25
https://archive.today/0KhZv
But the, "Sex for good reviews" is still just a distraction that's thrown in. "Sex", rather than "relationship", because it lets people push the argument toward being about a women and her sex life while ignoring Grayson is the one in the wrong who had the breach of ethics. "Reviews" is used to intentionally obfuscate the issue because he did write about her and her game, but he didn't review it. To a lot of people "write about" and "review" are pretty much the same thing so most don't catch the use of the term "review" until the start getting hammered over the semantics.
This is done to keep people from discussing all the stuff that came out AFTER that incident. The GameJournoPro list, the black listing of journos and devs that didn't toe the line, financial ties between journalists, judges and indi devs, the "Gamers are dead" articles and other journos that covered friends and roommates without disclosures to name a few.
If you do get past the depression quest incident, then they'll likely just start dismissing everything else as unrelated and/or trivial and will claim it's not what gamers are concerned about or they'll use the old, "If you cared about ethics, you'd be going after publishers instead of women" (because some journalists happen to be women and therefore cannot be talked about), which is Kafkatrapping you into defending yourself against accusations of misogyny instead of talking about the blatant ethical violations.
The only purpose of these threads is so the whiny little man-boys who make up 90% of /. these days can witter on about 'SJWs' and how oppressed they are and how the 'SJWs' have ruined everything. Wah wah wah. I suppose it provides an outlet for them, maybe takes them away from their stalking and doxing activities for a while.
Then another whiny man-boy will start on about how the 'SJWs' have ruined Linux with systemd.
Pathetic bunch of losers the lot of you. You deserve to have you imaginary fears of the 'SJWs taking over the world' come true. You haven't got a decent set of nads between you.
To be modded troll, because the truth hurts (unless some of the 10% of non-whinies have mod points).
"You don't like how some maintainer is maintaining a project? FORK IT and make SOMETHING BETTER. Show them how YOU would do it. Just SHUT THE FUCK UP AND START DOING instead of WHINING."
Yeah, and then find out that the maintainer is super obsessive and pissed, so proceeds to trash you online, SWAT your home and make your online life a living hell. And maybe you're even more unlucky, and they have lots of friends among other projects and they proceed to blacklist you. All because they wanted it the way they wanted it, and when you tried to do something else, it hit their ego the wrong way.
1% of a large number is a large number.
And 99% of a large number is an even larger number
Adolescent name calling is one thing, escalating it into death threats (whether "credible" or not) is unacceptable whether the victim is male or female.
Strawman. That death threats by the 1% being unacceptable doesn't make the criticism of the 99% - who don't make death threats - invalid.
I mean, who gives a fuck apart from dysfunctional twelve year olds?
Indeed, who? The one making a mountain out of that 1% molehill is you.
Only where it makes sense for academic reasons, not just because some guy has no social skills and can't interact with other people without screaming expletives at them.
So yeah, segregated bathrooms, changing rooms, introductory CS classes, fine, there are clear reasons and no-one is disadvantaged. Segregated software projects so some guys can be brogrammers, fuck no.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Sound ridiculous?
Yes. Because it is.
belongs to a HUGE fucking faggot. I can't tell you anymore. Here.
email me at un1c0rn23@gmail.com
One of the things that draws me to Open Source is that the barriers to entry are absolutely fucking zero.
Sure. As long as you don't mind putting up with a community that still thinks dick jokes are clever.
I agree with all of your merit based comments but the drama seems to come from those who choose a confrontational style of communication. Putting people down and being an asshole just because you can is the height of drama.
WILL EARTH EVER BE THE SAME ?
(hint: remains identical)
Filter err: blaeh bleh pink pussuie
Perhaps you were successful, perhaps you're making it up, but you sure sound like a solid a-hole to me...
Choose a random women: "You now develop open source software".
She refuses? Bullet to the head. Ask a second one. She refuses? Bullet to the head. Quite sure the third will happily start coding. Rince/repeat until desired ratio is reached.
Guys don't want women coming in to their existing communities
Your are intentionally obtuse and it's not doing you any favors. Guys want women coming in to their existing communities. What guys don't want is women changing their communities.
You don't go into a community and change it to suit you. You go into a community and you adapt to its culture or you start your own Casino... well you know how that quote goes.
"Not to mention all the idiots who use words like boxen."
Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @06:49PM
Yeah. Things men don't bring into the workplace:
Men don't bring running to the bathroom to cry.
Men don't bring I'm-physically-fine-but-it's -sunny-so-I'm-unhappy-so-I'm-not-showing-up-for-work-today-itis.
Men don't bring "Oh it's XYZ's Birthday... EVERYBODY STOP WORKING FOR THE NEXT THREE HOURS SO WE CAN HAVE A TEA-PARTY STYLE GABFEST!!!"... to be repeated ad nauseum every time someone has a birthday (unless the birthday guy is someone who isn't liked by the party proponent -- then the girls DON'T give a shit about "inclusiveness").
Men also don't bring "I gotta come in late and leave early, because muh kids!" -- they coordinate their outside of work obligations with someone outside of work -- ask a neighbor to pick up their kids, or a relative or whatever.
Hypothetically speaking, one does not need to actually have a job slot filled for a job to be stolen. For example, say I've got 10 job openings. In order to appease a certain group of individuals, I will only hire 5 of each gender. I get 20 resumes of one gender, but only 2 of the other. 15 individuals are now SOL because they are the wrong gender.
In general, SJW's are incompetent at real skills. They only know how to whine and be parasites... so, they CAN'T start their own projects... they have no choice but to jump into existing organizations, and try to hijack them. Without a dog or rat or mouse or cat to suck the blood out of, the flea dies.
Nonsense. There is a strong social aspect that you refuse to acknowledge. You have this mythical ideal of a meritocracy that simply does not exist.
Politics, bias, interpersonal conflict, all trump technology -- even in the Linux kernel.
Required reading for internet skeptics
I dont believe youve ever owned a business
So yeah, segregated bathrooms, changing rooms, introductory CS classes, fine, there are clear reasons
Wait WHAT ?!?
I mean, Bathrooms and Changing rooms have to do with Lady parts vs Man parts, but I'm not clear on what CLEAR reason you see for Introductory CS classes... Last I checked (and I admit my introductory CS classes were about 20 years ago), there was no genital involvement.
"Not to mention all the idiots who use words like boxen."
Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @06:49PM
Linux isn't thriving, it's surviving. They have a constant shortage of reviewers. Why? Because so few developers stay with the project long enough to be able to contribute as reviewers. The toxic environment alienates developers. Even Linus agrees with me there.
Mozilla, in contrast, is constantly innovating. They're leading new standardization efforts, building new products, and making dramatic improvements to their core product.
What bothers me is that you seem to be defending this childish behavior as essential to the success of a project when it's clearly detrimental. I've yet to see any rational justification for that -- presumably because one does not exist.
Required reading for internet skeptics
All OSS projects are perpetually short on staff
Linux has no shortage of contributors, they have a shortage of reviewers. That is, people who stay with the project long enough to contribute as reviewers.
Lots of people want a kernel contribution on the resume, very few want to stick around after they've waded through that vile cesspit.
Required reading for internet skeptics
I'd agree that it should never be done just because one can. In fact, I'd say that people should be encouraged. However, that's not always the case when tempers flare and whatnot. Personally, I'd not work with Linus. However, it's not like people don't know what to expect going in.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Thank you. I thought that I'd read that stuff before. I'm an outside watching while eating the proverbial popcorn. It's mostly just to amuse myself that I even check on it and I only bothered because it kept coming up and I had no idea what the hell an SJW was. Someone had accused me of being an MRA and I was baffled. I looked it up and giggled as it couldn't be further from the truth. I'm an egalitarian and employed numerous high quality engineers and programmers that were female and very good at their job.
Oh no! I want people to be good at their job! That means I'm some sort of sexist, racist, or homophobic or whatnot? It's even more confusing because I spend a goodly amount of time hanging around with the 'genderqueer" community. I'm also racially mixed. :/ Ah well... I really don't understand it and the more I try to get it (the whole understanding of the thinking process - of both sides, really) the more confused I get.
I will say that there has been horrific behavior on both sides at this point and that no side is able to claim the moral high ground from what I can see. I'm sure certain individuals can but the groups, as a whole, have failed to do so. I also wonder who's trolling who and pretending to be acting on behalf of the other group. I'm sure there's some much like there are Republicans who pretend to be Democrats just to make them seem a caricature.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I could be mistaken but I seem to recall that this was something they had admitted to. As an outsider, I suppose, I will defer to your knowledge.
I wouldn't call myself an insider, but I have looked into it. The supposed review-for-sex review doesn't actually exist. The entire base prmise of gamergate was in fact a lie posted in an 8000 word rant written by Zoe Quinn's ex when he got dumped.
Obviously it's hard for me to prove a negative, but I'm sure if I'm wrong, a friendly neighbourhood gater will pop in and correct me.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Esentially you are asking everyone to disprove all of her arguments. I will tell you from a rational point of view that if the first few arguments you look at are faulty, that will lead you to believe that many if not all of them are faulty or based upon faulty premises. If you argue that all of the presidents were straight white males, and I look at say ten of those and determine that in at least five of those cases you are incorrect, I am going to jump to the logical conclusion that you don't know what you're talking about.
My suggestions to her are to avoid hyperbole, don't take things out of context just to shore up faulty arguments, and to double check her claims before she goes public with them.
If she collated a number of GOOD examples, ensured the context was available, and double cheked both of those things, she could make a excellent argument that women are being discriminated against in video games. She did none of that, she jumps to conclusions and goes into the discussion looking for a verbal/text altercation, and manipulates her examples to give the impression she wants.
Frankly I do think the internet as a whole was too hard on her, BUT look at any public figure that sticks their foot in their mouth. The internet can pretty much crucify them.
Do you know if they're hiring?
It appears that someone has chimed in and posted links to the sources. It's up above and below my earlier reply. There appears to be some serious ethical issues indeed. I'd thought that was what I'd read at any rate. Either way, the current behavior from both sides is despicable. I'm pretty sure that there's no moral high ground remaining to be had at either end of the spectrum.
I do believe EncyclopediaDramatica actually has a pretty decent article on the subject as well. As I recall, that's where I started my search and I went on from there and looked at postings from both sides in an effort to try to figure out what the hell an SJW was and why someone was calling me an MRA. Silly me for wanting to judge on merits. My bad. They automatically assume I'm sexist when, really, their gender is the least of my concerns and not really a concern at all unless I plan on sleeping with them or, you know, looking at them while they're naked.
*sighs* I'm a bad person by default. I don't even have to do anything. I mean, yeah, I'm an asshole but I should at least have done something that deserves an insult before it's blindly thrown. Trust me, give me a few minutes and I'm sure I'll do something to give you a reason to insult me. Just throwing them at me by default seems a bit silly and counterproductive. It makes me not want to consider their points, no matter how rational they might be. Imagine that! I don't like to listen to spittle flecked zealots. Again, I'm sure that makes me a bad person. I mean, yeah, I guess I kind of could be but not for that. Ah well...
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Freezing the code is not going to help. If anything it will just solidify the out-of-dateness of the docs and split the documenters workload between polishing "stable" documentation and working on "development" documentation. Coders collaborating with documenters would go a long way though. Pointing out end user visible changes in commit logs, for example, would be huge in and on itself. But that, again, means that coders would have to work with others... which is usually not a problem but when it is it is a giant clusterfuck so few want to step into that minefield.
Most software organizations I've seen can use as many good people as they can get. There simply aren't a fixed number of jobs for techies.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Replace things like "SJW" and "political correctness" with "respect for other people"
Not possible, the hallmark of a SJW is to be a complete and utter asshole to anyone who dares to even slightly disagree with you. It's not Social Activism, it's Social Asshattery.
1. Hire them. No, I don't care what your excuse is. No, I don't care what your HR execs and your frat brothers on the board tell you. Just do it.
2. See 1.
3. See 1.
4. RTFM. See 1.
5. Repeat as needed.
Thus endeth the lesson.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
It appears that someone has chimed in and posted links to the sources.
Not really. Only one of them contains any mention of the game in question. The mention is one word, which hardly qualifies as a review, and it was written before they had a relationship.
what the hell an SJW was
AFAICT "SJW" doesn't actually mean anything more than "stuff I hate on the internet". There seems to be no constency of its use and it's used as an insult to shut down conversations. It's the internet equivalent of a politicians "terrorists, paedphiles and criminals".
SJW n. One who posts facts.
However, it's not like people don't know what to expect going in.
And we have come full circle to the topic and the answer is, broadly, to stop people from contributing in the first place. Of course people know what to expect. That's precisely why some abstain regardless of merit, actual or perceived.
Much like the RIAA and MPAA bitching about lost sales without considering that it might be the inflated prices might be actually preventing those sales "brogrammers" (not a term I support but it serves the purpose here) never even see the high value contributors, regardless of gender, that walk away after checking the price. This particularly includes roles that coders can't necessarily judge the merit off easily like testers and documenters.
It's part of why projects that are less code driven tend to be less toxic. If all you see is code and all you value is code you will only see coders willing to put up with whatever shit they see in the projects communications. It shouldn't be surprising that there's a bias to seeing self-important blowhards on a regular basis, some of them will be women, SJW and whatyouhave and they will be remembered far more than the occasional basement dweller despite having essentially the same attitude.
Similarly no one asks when contributer slowly drifts away. And even if they did, few people will bother engaging a toxic community they are leaving just to direct abuse at themselves. So there's a pretty thick cocoon that many of the commenter here have around them, to them it appears like a working system, even if the project is dying, just means there's no interest in that case. It's rarely project culture that's blamed (outside of mostly technical matters like language choice, licensing, version control systems, etc.).
You're assuming those alienated are the best and brightest. I'd submit that such is untrue. And you're certainly free to complain but do it quietly so as to not disrupt those who are working. Your "look at me" skit is pathetic as is your perpetual victimhood. Get the hell out of the way and stop disrupting the people who are trying to get stuff done. Is this too complicated? Do you not understand?
I've read your other posts. You have empathy, that's great and a noble thing. So do I. However, you can't be objective nor can you stop being disruptive. Your childish behavior isn't going to get you what you want. Say your piece and then accept the answer you're given. If you want control then get off your ass and take control.
Go to github and click 'fork.' Tada! You're now the boss. Good luck and try to do good work and we might follow you or use your code. Keep your code in sync as well as you can and push and pull as needed to better the project as a whole. You didn't get your way once and stomping your feet and whining isn't going to change that. You're not the boss. You said what you had to say and were given an answer. Yet, here you are repeating it again and again throughout the thread even when you've been shown to be both illogical and dishonest.
You're not doing your 'side' any favors when you do things like agree with the data given and then insist the problem still exists even though you agree with the data you asked for and were given.
TL;DR You're dismissed. It's not that I don't like you, I don't but that's besides the point and nothing personal. It's that you're empathetic and that's a good thing but it doesn't make for a good, rational, discussion. Like I said, it's nothing personal - I don't much like anyone. There are few people that I truly like because people, for the most part, suck. Sometimes, I don't even like myself.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
What nobody's explained to me is what ethics have to do with gaming journalism. Has it improved that tremendously since I last paid attention to it?
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
You've mistaken your ideals for reality. The world is not what you believe it ought to be.
Oh, the irony...
What nobody's explained to me is what ethics have to do with gaming journalism.
Apparently it's unethical to not write a review about a game which isn't released, written by someone you're not in a relationship with.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I'm inclined to agree though, if you actually want to expend the effort (not that I'm suggesting you waste the time), the ED article is an excellent place to start and has a lot of actual citations and stuff. (Strange, considering it is ED. They also have an amazing article on South Ossetia but that's another topic.)
I think we can likely agree that the antics have gone too far at both ends and that the rest is just noise and pretty much invalidates their point. *sighs*
Also, I think you may be looking at it with a little bias. I'm not so quick to believe it happened so shortly afterwards (the relationship) when there's some evidence to suggest that might not be true. I'm unable to judge, either way and accept that I don't know but with the rest of the evidence (again, there's an ED article that will send you on a strange trip if you want it) it really makes the BS meter ping.
As an outsider, it's amusing and makes me chuckle from time to time. I'm perfectly okay with watching a mentally ill person hurl insults at another mentally ill person. In fact, I find it more entertaining than television. I am, indeed, an ass. I'm not so much an ass as to go to the Special Olympics to laugh at the participants but I get to do it in the privacy of my own home in the form of watching these Gamergate folks.
What I was hoping, when I first heard about this - which was not that long ago - was that it would spark a meaningful and adult conversation. I'm a friggen' idiot. *sighs* I don't know what I was thinking.
Is there an real problem with their being so few females in coding? Why is it a problem? What is the cause of the problem? How can we fix it? What evidence is there that they want to go into coding? How large a problem is this? Those sorts of questions. I seldom see them asked and answered by rational people with data - and that comes from reading lots of people opine. Truth be told, I have neither a nickel invested nor a care in the world. I just like watching the drama and occasionally poking those who are illogical. Sometimes I poke the interesting ones to see what happens next.
We all have our hobbies. ;-)
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Are you a traffic engineer? Willing to work in North Carolina or Florida? I know they don't need programmers nor IT staff specifically for that department (it's a huge parent company now) but I know they're always looking for quality traffic engineers. I don't believe there's any more cross training though I believe they still send employees off for additional education but I don't know how they work that now.
We used to pay for it all, cut their hours to 30 if applicable, keep their benefits, and pay them the full 40 hours and they signed an "obligation" (not a contract) to continue with the company for five years. They were still free to leave but they'd be breaking their promise and, believe it or not, if you treat your employees with respect and like humans they don't run off even if they're offered more money. Funny that.
I've been back on numerous occasions but it's damned difficult to leave. I do miss the place, the work, and the people. This being in public I'll continue to skip the name but the email address works. If you're a traffic engineer and looking to get out of muni work or are being underpaid there's actually a good chance that there's a company who will treat you right. If you have any experience modeling pedestrian traffic, something often needed for things like malls or convention centers, then there's an even greater need. It's also an area that you're not going to find a lot of H1-B applicants unless that has changed in the past eight years.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Which is convincing our field that diversity helps and lack of it has real impact on the people in it and the society we contribute to.
Because, if you look at discussion like this, too few are willing to admit it is an issue. Too many get defensive and throw up a ton of unrelated issues.
Because it's scary to admit you may not be as rational as you think you are, that you act on societal biases like most people. Even worse, it really hard to have a moment of doubt that you actually may not be a very good person, and all your technical skills and accomplishments does nothing to change that.
That's what this is about. Addressing diversity issues makes things better for everybody. But, no, too many steadfastly refused to accept anybody else's perspective if it is different from their own.
Look at this discussion. Not one well moderated comment had anything that remotely looked like an answer posted in the post itself. Not surprising, because it is clear that not enough people see the issues that do exist and wouldn't be that difficult to solve.
From this, it is clear that there are plenty of programmers that are threatened by the mere idea that they, as a man, could have to work with (or be replaced by) a woman that is just as skilled as they are. This is an ages old theme that plays out over and over again in every aspect of society.
The people that do really well welcome the challenge as an opportunity to improve and learn from all sides. I saw it the CS lab when I was in school. Most were clueless, many resentful, but the really smart ones just worked *with* the women in our class. They didn't tell them what to do, didn't judge, but just collaborated.
To this day, I know a few that resent that the women in our class ended up in the positions they did (most notably, one at JPL working on the Pathfinder mission). The simple fact is that she was that good and they weren't.
My career isn't going well at all, but I'm not going to blame it on so called social justice warriors and affirmative action just to feel better. Easy for me to do. One of my PhD cohort that worked with my advisor was a female. She got a faculty position somewhere, I didn't. In the end, I didn't set myself up like I thought I did, and she did better. End of story.
Making yourself feel better by dismissing progress as the action of out of control protestors (SJW) or as affirmative action gone out of control doesn't actually work in the long run.
Feminists make it clear that their problem isn't with diversity or the lack thereof. They just want to protect their own interests. They unfairly benefit from the status quo. They're terrified that they won't be able to survive if faced with a little competition in the job market.
How about we define "toxic" before we go too far down this road?
Also, I'd like to point out that the RIAA and MPAA sales numbers are up. We could argue that the quality has gone down but I don't think that was the point of your analogy.
You seem to be reaching and assuming a lot. I'm not sure that I agree. I do, highly, encourage you to fork it and run it as you see fit. Keep the project in sync so that you can push and pull and share the code. If you're right then you'll attract the best and brightest and you'll attract the sponsorship and corporate interests.
I'm posing as AC because I posted too much yesterday. Only one person, that I know of, writes as poorly and as verbose as I so it should be obvious if it's me.
KGIII
Well said.
There are no quotas.
You're right. Hammering Apple/Amazon/etc to cough up numbers related to diversity, and then hammering Apple/Amazon/etc for having too few of specific minorities, that's totally different from quotas.
Goit.
lol @ the comments in this thread. "Why is, 'They just aren't that into it so hard to understand?’" + "Let anyone with the aptitude and the desire to code do so. Enough of this forced 'equality' for something that will never appeal to everybody." And, wait for it, "You know how more women can be involved in open-source ? When there are more women coding open source. That's it. This is not a f**cking social issue." - please. This is a social issue. Men aren't inherently more interested in CS & free software. That interest is cultivated by social norms, exposure, and opportunity. - This is really, really sad because people in free software are meant to be fighting for equality and open knowledge because its moral and pragmatic (more people = more innovation). This is a *classic example* of people who fight for equality when it's convenient for them to face. I guess it's easy to get behind an issue you don't think you're perpetuating. Honestly, get all on board, or get off and re-evaluate.
Sure, some people are jerks. That happens. But what the result of using "SJW" and "political correctness gone mad!" is, is that it gets thrown the moment someone says "hey, how about we try to be a bit more nice to other people? you know, try it, see what happens." All of a sudden many people go "rah! you can't tell me what to do! You're such a SJW!"
It's reactionary, stupid, and hinders having a good community.
All these so-called SJW people are trying to do is give a voice to people who don't have much of their own to stop them being so excluded. Because being excluded causes them to have less of a voice. You see how there's a feedback loop there, right?
If you want to exclude people who aren't like you from your own community, that's your prerogative. What is happening is that people are saying that it is not a good way to have the optimal community.
Also, your parasitism point is ... weird. It doesn't make sense. How does making it easier for more people to get involved make them parasites?
I have news for you - If you are an egalitarian, you are considered an MRA now. Its the way things go.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Though it should be noted that none of what you describe ever happened. No female developers slept with any journalists in exchange for favorable reviews. It was a lie from the start. A lie which you obviously believed.
Except nobody ever claimed that. She was sleeping with someone who gave her favorable coverage. She is also a rapist by her own definition - She had unprotected sex with someone else which violates her boyfriend's consent, ergo rape. For people who try to take the high ground, I find it amusing that everyone who defends Zoe Quinn and overlooks this part of her is basically a rape apologist. Way to side with the abuser.
Why is it always about coding? Without Sysadmins there would be no systems to run the code. Without Network Engineers there would be no network to transmit the code. Without Security Engineers the code would be a bowl of Jello.
On ./ it always about coders. It takes a lot more than just code to compute.
300 figures silly!
300 figures silly!
No, what SJWs want is to kick out the people who are already IN whatever community they are attempting to take over, and replace them with themselves and their friends. Or at least render the existing memebrs subordinate to the SJWs and their friends.. They call it inclusiveness, but they don't mean it.
She was sleeping with someone who gave her favorable coverage.
Again, this is completely untrue. This has been debunked countless times.
She is also a rapist by her own definition
That's just delusional.
Required reading for internet skeptics
[citation needed]
I'm all for seeing more women in coding and IT in general, but why force it? Sometimes women just aren't interested. Granted the thing with Sarah Sharp and Linus Torvalds doesn't help make it look like an inviting environment, and that could be off-putting, but anyone serious about getting into it ought to be smart enough to realize there are a lot of other projects they can get involved with or they can start their own if they don't want to deal with people like Linus Torvalds.
You're beating your head against a wall. The SJW types don't get it because they are just too fucking stupid.
The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
You're forgetting about its LEGO
The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
AAArrrrggggghhhhhhhhh
The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
Again, this is completely untrue. This has been debunked countless times.
Okay, so she gets favorable press from Nathan, thanks him in her game, then sleeps with him within a week timeframe of the article being published. Obviously there was a relationship of sorts there. Remember, Nathan did publicly say he slept with her, and she never denied it outright.
As for the rape by her own definition: 1) She had unprotected sex with Josh. 2) She had unprotected sex with Eron shortly there after. By having unprotected sex with someone else during their break period then having unprotected sex with him, that provided ground for his consent being revoked by having sex with him under false pretenses. Ergo rape. What happened to listening to the victims?
Especially when all the person is doing is discussing something trivial like video game entertainments. I mean, who gives a fuck apart from dysfunctional twelve year olds?
I see this a lot. Its almost like people don't realize that the video games industry is the largest form of entertainment media in the world. So yeah, it is kind of a big deal. It may not be to you, but there is a ton of money generated by the industry.
Your claims get softer and softer the more facts we introduce: Here's the article you mention, give it a read.
It's pretty clear than anyone covering that topic would have, by necessity, mentioned Quinn. There are a lot of names mentioned in that article because it's about a game jam reality tv show of which she was a participant. To not mention Quinn would have been an odd omission. As for any special treatment, look at how much coverage Quinn gets compared to everyone else, and if that's positive, negative or neutral in general and in relation to the many other people mentioned and quoted in the article. There's no reason to suspect she was granted any special treatment.
It's pretty obvious to everyone that she wasn't exchanging sex for press coverage. You can believe that if you want, it's not impossible, but there is absolutely no evidence to support it. How do you justify this belief?
As for the rape by her own definition:
Still absurd nonsense, lacking any grounding in fact.
Required reading for internet skeptics
I think based on a number of factors, and observe, that men and women are very different indeed. I do not think that women contribute nothing different than men, for that would be an unwarranted conclusion, ie., there just isn't enough evidence. The truth is I just don't know. So I have two perspectives on this:
1. As you implied, men and women are emotionally different, as well as different in many ways which we probably don't even know about, plus the other kinds of differences we do know about. Though, the last time I looked into this, there didn't seem to be any remarkable science suggesting that we differ radically in cognitive approach, though there are probably some more subtle general differences that may become better understood in time. There does seem to be slight differences in variance of IQ for ex., though this is probably only relevant at the tails, and not so much for the -0/+2 sigma band likely to account for most programmers. Nor is it clear how differences in IQ map to cognitive skill distributions.
The point being, that I strongly disagree with the self-contradictory nature of feminist arguments, that on one hand gender differences are all socially constructed, yet in the next breath, I hear them tell me how having diversity of gender, race, sexuality, etc. leads to "more solutions."
I don't think there is any proof of this at all. But I will grant you that it is, remotely, plausible.
But if we are going to accept that as an open hypothesis, then there's a big problem with "all gender differences are socially constructed" don't you think? Because, IF the socially constructed theory is true, THEN it is the only mechanism by which diversity of people types can lead to "more solutions!" Yet it is the goal of feminists to ELIMINATE socially constructed conditioning, isn't it? Which means feminism's goals are mutually exclusive. If you eliminate the sources of social conditioning, you are left with an amorphous mass of undifferentiated personalities--in which diversity does not and cannot exist!
2. So to approach this scientifically, we need two things: a) evidence that diversity of gender leads to better solutions--however you want to judge what constitutes better is open to debate. But just "more" solutions I don't think really matters because having more shitty solutions does no one any good, which doesn't help our crusade to make the world a better place does it? b) We need further evidence that *gender* itself is the CAUSE of better solutions. This is tricky, because the social dynamics of co-ed vs. predominantly unisex environments may differ. For pete's sake, there are even pheromones! We have only begun to scratch the surface as to how many subtle variables may be involved, many of which are side effects of gender and yet which may affect outcome.
At this point, I'm quite certain that no such evidence exists for gender being causative of "better solutions". Frankly, I don't even think human beings are capable of carrying out this science objectively in the first place.
So what if it's true anyway? What does it mean? Does it justify force of law to compel male dominated coding communities to invite and "be nice" to women, since it seems the slightest offense can make the typical women completely loose confidence in her most deeply held interests?
Once again we run into a serious problem of logical contradictions and mutually exclusive goals if we go down this road, because remember--the premise is that men and women ARE fundamentally different, or else diversity is FALSE. And so if we are still working with that premise, and we really have no choice because it is true and everybody knows it--then it is also possible (and even likely) that men and women differ significantly in the degree to which their average personalities are drawn to programming!
Therefore, this entire issue of "there aren't enough women in programming" is a non-issue because IT IS THE VERY MANIFESTATION OF DIVERSITY!
Even the simplest program flow control with nothing but a few if then else statements is logic, yes indeed.
Here we go with the "anybody can code" theory again. I will only say this--I think it's bullshit because there is much more to it than just being able to spell things out step by step. I will simply give an anecdote. If you think it's meaningless, fine. Hopefully some will "see" the meaning here:
I once hired an intern to help me with electronics design work. Part of his job would be to learn to use the scripting facilities of a PCB CAD program, then write a program to take human data entry input descriptions of high pin count devices and automatically turn them into the functional and mechanical models needed within the program, a process which, to do by hand, is extremely tedious, repetitive, and time-consuming.
Well this kid absolutely kicked ass on this problem, and wrote a piece of software that is now an important asset to my operation, in just about 2 months.
He also tried to make a few actual PCBs. Here he didn't fare so well. The first run had a serious oversight--forgot to see if the mechanical orientation of a connector mated correctly with another--that sort of thing. So he revised it and we did a 2nd run. Uh-oh, another few small mistakes that made it not quite useful. I think the 3rd rev. turned out Ok.
Now this sort of success rate is not quite good enough in the hardware design world, because, re-spins of boards are $$$. What's even worse is when lack of attention to detail results in faults you don't discover until some time down the road, when suddenly 1000s of products come back on warranty because someone didn't take the time to read every single fucking word of fine print in a datasheet, and investigate the potential significance of every single ambiguity!
Can anyone do this? No fucking way!
I am not trying to say that my intern could not have developed more attention to detail with experience, or that all people who aren't inherently this perfectionist can never develop satisfactory attention to detail. It is highly possible and probable that some might. But I am absolutely certain that there are also some people who can never, ever, develop the sort of attention to detail needed to do engineering with a success rate high enough (in the >=95%, preferably 99% range, or even much higher, depending on the sub-field) to be successful, regardless of their overall intelligence.
Now what has this got to do with whether anyone can code or not, since clearly they are different, or else why did my intern do so well at the programming problem and not so well at the hardware design?
For starters, programming has a much shorter feedback period. You blow two board designs, and by the time the 3rd is working, your competitor has had a several month lead in the marketplace. But if you are playing footloose with code, you notice the big errors, and are able to correct them, in minutes or seconds.
However, what separates programming from recipe writing is that you are dealing with a machine that has absolutely no idea what you really mean, and so ultimately, the level of attention to detail required to get programs to work right is actually very high. High enough in fact, that when combined with the fact that one must learn a programming language, which involves some unavoidable level of abstractions as well as all sorts of weird arbitrary rules, the result is that there will be a proportion of people, again regardless of intelligence, who will simply be unable to deal with it and will give up due to frustration.
The programmers who persist and get past the frustration do so because there is something that makes them inherently like programming, and this, by definition, cannot be learned or taught.
Finally, there will be some who will struggle to grasp even basic abstractions, and even more who will forever be baffled by higher abstractions. Now many might be able to accomplish useful goals through progr
Your so called "segregated software projects" are not segregated at all. There are no rules or laws that bar certain genitalia from committing code. But you want rules on genitals in places where genitalia doesn't matter.
Just curious, what is your end game, or victory condition? a 50/50 split? or more women than men? Is that victory in-achievable if there is an ass hole on the internet?
Even if I've employed women over men because they were the most suited for the job? They also look nicer in a skirt but that's besides the point. ;) Either way, I fail to see how I'm bigoted by being preferential to quality over gender. I just don't get it. I didn't hire because of altruism, I hired because I needed help. I hired the best and brightest I could find because I wanted someone who was as good or better than myself.
I hired IT staff, engineers, programmers, etc... I can not wear all those hats as well as a specialist can. I know, it's taboo to admit such here but really - I had better IT staff, programmers, and engineers than I was able to be. I'm a maths geek. I am not a programmer. I can code in a variety of languages, I can secure and admin a system, etc... I can't do so as efficiently or as consistently as the professionals. That's why I hired them.
I didn't, and I still don't, care who they slept with or where they peed from. Quality, that's the metric. Hell, not even quality - I hired some who had not proven themselves yet but had a good education and were able to demonstrate that they'd reward us for the effort we put in to train them. (It's hard to find traffic engineers.)
I had multiple races, genders, and sexualities working WITH me. (Not for me. They worked with me. A few people even had a higher salary than I had, at least on paper.) I even had a DB admin who's species was questionable. I am not sure if those guys are humans. I really have no idea. Hell, we even had a male secretary. It's not like we were some mythical cabal where we scoffed at womenfolk and would hire someone less capable because of their gender or sexuality. You're an equal until proven otherwise and then you might just be more superior. Equal in the sense of what you're valued at by the company on paper - everyone gets treated more or less the same. We pulled no punches but we laughed and, truly, cried with one another.
Hell, we had times where we shut down the office because someone had a death in the family and we wanted to go to the funeral or to comfort our coworker and friend. We got shitfaced together. Laughed our asses off together. Yelled at each other. Called each other names just to piss them off because they came in to work with a hangover. And we got over our hurt feelings (if we had any) and moved on. It never, not once, crossed any sort of line from what I observed.
If there was a customer in the building our behavior was (usually) different. If not then we were a clothing optional facility! No, not really. But, sort of - we were much more relaxed and comfortable without customers in the building. We still wore clothing. Not always shoes though. I used to meander around in socks or moccasins all the time. Another was always in sandals and another was barefoot - even in the winter.
We were a happy bunch in an immature business sphere. We worked hard, played harder, and all that.
I say all that because, well, it baffles me that people will know this (and some do) and still seem to think that I'm an "MRA." I simply don't get it. Shouldn't a men's rights activist be just as proud and respected as a woman's rights activist? If not then why not?
I certainly am a men's rights activist. I'm also a female rights activist. I think a better term would be to say that I'm a human rights activist. I mean, yeah, I've met people from this site in the real world. I've met others from other sites. I'm not exactly unknown or anything. So, I operate under the assumption that I have no privacy so people have access to everything I've said, personal opinions, etc... How are they still concluding, with all this evidence, that I'm a bigot?
I'm not. At least I'm pretty sure I am not. I don't go out of my way to support anyone above the other except based on what they do or what they have done. I am not sure how this makes me a bad person. I've tried asking, I truly don't understand, and I get ignored once the questions become uncomfortable. At least that's what I'm
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
The end game is that everyone who wants to participate has the opportunity to do so without having to put up with bullshit due to their gender/age/race/sexuality/etc.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Even the simplest program flow control with nothing but a few if then else statements is logic, yes indeed.
Thought about that, after I was finsihed writing. We don't call that logic, but control flow. With logic we usually mean boolean algebra, horn logic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_clause) or predicate logic.
I'm not arguing that _everybody_ can code, or should learn coding. However the majourity could. The question is where to draw the line. What is actually coding/programming?
Writing a socket based program that does http request is not really a challange, but tedious. I guess I would Need a few hours (if I want to do more than simply write "get URL" to the socket).
However using an HTTP library from Python, or curl in a Shell script is easy.
My favourite teaching languahe still is Pascal.
A Pascal programm looks like a cooking recipe.
Ingrediences: types and consts
Tools: variables
ToDo's: procedures
Fitting all together: the main program
I agree with most of the stuff you write ... about abstraction, level of detail etc.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
As long as immigrants are cheaper, and speak the same language as the people the project will be outsourced to anyway in a few years, that doesn't mean there is an *actual* shortage.
Over here the industry has started to talk about how there is a shortage of skilled developers and engineers. In a recent interview, one of the big name CEOs flat out said that the shortage has become so enormous that they've started hiring people who just finished their (IT or engineering) education.
Yes, that's why we educate people.
I almost expect him to say in a few years, that if the trend continues, the shortage will be so bad that they will be forced to start hiring unemployed but experienced people.
Beyond that, it goes to show the cronyism that is present in the journalism field. He is credited in the game back in Feb 2013 according to the game files last edit dates.
Still absurd nonsense, lacking any grounding in fact.
The point stands that they had an agreement, she violated it, and it revoked their agreed consent before the issue. What is sex without consent?
everyone who wants to participate has the opportunity to do so without having to put up with bullshit due to their gender/age/race/sexuality/etc.
Break out the champagne. For the most part that has been achieved. A few ass holes != industry standard. That doesn't even address the ability to avoid said ass holes by forking and starting your own committee around a project.
Small % of women in open source != less opportunity and more bullshit because gender.
I know I'm a certified old guy, north of 60 years old, but I wonder if the word EXCELLENCE has meaning any longer in the age of DIVERSITY. When I look for a solution to a problem I am looking for the SOLUTION to that problem. I do not, nor have I ever, cared from whence that solution came. So by definition EXCELLENCE will bring forth diversity by demanding the best SOLUTION rather than creating an artificial arena where everyone is required to be represented simply to meet a social goal.
James Douglass Garden City, Kansas Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle
The suspicion of the claims that she slept for favorable coverage does NOT mean the Kotaku article.
On the RPS article, you should note the date is early January, three months before they had any sort of romantic relationship. Regardless, there's no reason to suspect that there was any sort of exchange or arrangement. Quinn's game is highlighted along with two others in the RPS article, naming them as standouts in a list of 50 other games. If there was any sort of exchange, it's not evident from the article.
Beyond that, it goes to show the cronyism that is present in the journalism field.
I'm not convinced. I'm surprised you are. Quinn's later relationship to Grayson doesn't seem to have had any impact on his coverage of Quinn's work either before or after their romantic involvement. He never even reviewed the game.
this whole "gamergate" thing is indeed about a developer fucking a reporter in order to get better reviews and that being unethical.
He never even reviewed the game. The evidence just doesn't support this claim.
To the softer claim: I have to question why the only example of cronyism in the industry that sparked this outrage was a tryst between an obscure indie developer and an even more obscure freelance journalist. Particularly when there's no reason to believe that their romantic involvement had any impact on the journalistic work either before or after their romantic encounter.
Quinn and Grayson are held up as the smoking gun, yet their story does not exemplify the problems GG claims to be deeply concerned about. You can hardly blame anyone for thinking that they have a different agenda, particularly with all the other rhetoric that surrounds the movement, and the lack of evidence
The point stands that they had an agreement, she violated it, and it revoked their agreed consent before the issue.
Again, there's no evidence here that she's a rapist by her own definition. Where has she offered up this alleged definition? Where's the evidence these other things took place? What's the point? How does that relate to the other claims?
Required reading for internet skeptics
Ask Barbra Streisand.
The Streisand effect happens when someone attempts to hide something that was public, thereby calling attention to it.
In this case, we have an obviously false claim, supported by no evidence, that no one is trying to cover-up. The two are unrelated.
I suspect it's because the problem they claim exists does not, or that there is no evidence to support their belief. Repeating the obvious lie, in hope that people will believe it, has thus become their only option.
The question, then, is why continue to make false claims? What do you hope to accomplish? To call attention to a problem that doesn't seem to exist in hopes that it will become solved? How would you know? If the problem of ethics in games journalism was solved, there would be no evidence of ethical problems -- which is exactly the state we find ourselves in now.
Could it be that GG has a different agenda than the one they claim? Perhaps one more closely aligned with the rhetoric you hear from GG supporters?
Required reading for internet skeptics
Bingo.
No one was trying to cover-up? Really? What is it you said earlier?
Ah. Right.
That's not an attempt to hide information. That's removing a disruptive and anti-social element from their forums.
Remember, there is NO EVIDENCE to cover-up. No attempt has been made to remove any damning information about the subject because none exists.
You can't hide something that doesn't exist.
Required reading for internet skeptics
I didn't even realize this was really any kind of an issue for anyone. Since when does anyone care what gender a coder is, especially for an open source project? The only thing pretty much any given normal person would ever care about is "DOES THE CODE WORK?" and "IS IT USEFUL?" Beyond that, who really cares? If something was written by my dog and submitted to Github, would anyone even care? Would anyone actually notice? This is just a stupid thing to even recirculate/regurgitate at all, even for Slashdot. Justy drop this nonsense and start ignoring the SJWs which seems to be what they really want and definitely what they need (to be ignored)!
"They're not even [within] 100 miles [of Baghdad]. They are not in any place. They hold no place in Iraq. This is an illusion ... they are trying to sell to the others an illusion."
Well, then present some evidence. As you've seen, all the stuff floating around doesn't even begin to support the claims being made.
Given the lack of evidence, why to you continue to believe that obviously fictional narrative? What purpose does that serve? Aside from blind delusion, the only reason I can see is that you believe promoting that nonsense somehow supports an agenda unrelated to ethics in game journalism.
Required reading for internet skeptics
Wow, that's at least a google!
And you dodge the fact that Grayson is in the games Thank You dev files since Feb 2013 (Last revision of the files), and the article was released Jan 2014. Good job trying to divert attention and then set up strawmen arguments. You also keep diverting back to REVIEW when I keep saying FAVORABLE COVERAGE. I see no reason in continuing this if you regularly dodge points that put holes in your argument and keep trying to use a strawman argument about reviews when I have repeatedly said favorable coverage. Hell, go look up the Gamer Noche article headlines - It states favorable coverage, not reviews. The other side twisted it for reviews so they could shoot it down fast, when, in fact, nobody has ever made that claim from the beginning.
GameJournoPros mailing list.
/thread
And you dodge the fact that Grayson is in the games Thank You dev files since Feb 2013
I didn't think it was relevant, as he's in a giant list of people that at least one of the many people involved in development presumably knows in the rather small (as far as people go) games industry. You're making quite a few assumptions here.
Of course, even if we accept the claim that they did know each other (which isn't unreasonable) it does not in any way support "the claims that she slept for favorable coverage".
You also keep diverting back to REVIEW when I keep saying FAVORABLE COVERAGE.
Which, is ridiculous. The best you can manage is a single mention in a list of standouts in a giant list of games by an obscure freelance writer three months before they had any sort of romantic relationship. It's just foolish.
the claims that she slept for favorable coverage
are completely false. There is absolutely no evidence to support this.
The other side twisted it for reviews so they could shoot it down fast, when, in fact, nobody has ever made that claim from the beginning.
In the post I replied to:
this whole "gamergate" thing is indeed about a developer fucking a reporter in order to get better reviews and that being unethical.
This is obviously false. It's just as false when you replace "review" with "favorable coverage".
It's pretty clear that Quinn didn't exchange sex for reviews (as none were given) or for "favorable coverage". After Grayson and Quinn became involved in a romantic relationship, Grayson wrote absolutely nothing about her or her game, and virtually nothing before hand (see above). It's false on it's face. Anyone can see that. I suspect that you know it's total nonsense. Why continue to promote an obvious lie? It completely undermines your credibility.
On GG itself: Why is this obviously false narrative the best example you have of corruption in games journalism? You have but one completely fictional example of the thing you're claiming the movement is intended to address. What can anyone conclude but that this oft-cited mission for GG is completely untrue and that they have a completely different agenda?
Required reading for internet skeptics
Breitbart /thread
Required reading for internet skeptics
I'm not so quick to believe it happened so shortly afterwards (the relationship) when there's some evidence to suggest that might not be true.
Either way though, it's not a review. This is the problem: the entire thing was based on a false premise.
Also, I think you may be looking at it with a little bias.
I'm not sure what qualifies as bias in this context. Most of what I've read about gamergaters paints them in a rather poor light. So these days I'm biased against them, but I don't think it's unreasonable to judge people based on their behaviour.
Is there an real problem with their being so few females in coding?
It depends. If there's simply something fundemental about women which makes them on average less likely to prefer coding on average and the differences in numbers are simply a reflection of that, then no, there's no problem.
If there's other causes which are pushing out people who would otherwise like and be good at programming then yes, I think that is a problem, just as much as it's a problem that there's huge pressure for men to not be infants and junior school teachers these days.
I seldom see them asked and answered by rational people with data
Surely you want them answered by people with data :)
But yes, data is good. We have of course piles of anecdotes and things we may have personally observed (I've seen some conferences where women have been subjected to some rather shoddy behaviour and other ones where there has been nothing wrong at all---curiously IME the quality of behaviour correlates strongly with the quality of conference). I have many more anecdotes of course.
But as to hard data, it's difficult to get. That said people have tried a few controlled trials with various things, such as submitting CVs to jobs and have in some cases found bias.
There's also some interesting effects:
http://blog.ian.gent/2013/10/t...
essentially given a group with some bigoted members equally distributed then a minority sub-group will be disporportionately on the receiving end of bigorty. This means that in essentially any industry where there's s significant gender imbalance, the minority will be on the receiving end of quite a lot of shoddy behaviour.
The result is that even if the gender imbalance is perfectly natural, then one still needs to put in effort to make sure the minority is not mistreated.
Truth be told, I have neither a nickel invested nor a care in the world.
Well that's fine. At the moment I'm not in a position where I can have any real effect, or be affected by it (employees? Ha! I need revenue first). I have been in the past. I suppose when I see bad behaviour going on around me, with people I can influence, I can either try to influence it, or I can accept it.
I've become less and less comfortable passively accepting such things as time has gone on. There's lots of nice quotes and platitudes I could wheel out along those lines, but ultimately it's a personal choice based on feelings, or if you prefer axioms. After all, logic does cannot underlie everything: it has to have an axiomatic foundation on which it rests.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I understand the feelings on the social justice motivations and underlying explanations behind these movements, but are these programs really such bad things? Woman are an untapped source of support to the open source community. If some people feel more comfortable in a gender specific community while initially learning, why not provide such a community? I argue that the presence of a demand for such a community alone provides sufficient justification.
Pardon the short reply.
There are far more pressing issues that I worry about on behalf of others. If you're in a position to help then, by all means, help. I don't really have much that I can do to help - I already don't judge based on innate qualities or even quite a few choices. If you have two equally qualified candidates for employment and one is male and the other female then the socially responsible thing to do might be to hire the female. If she's more qualified then the business choice should clearly be to hire her. If the male is more qualified then, by all means, it's not a bad thing to hire him.
I sit, most of the time - I'm not in the area currently, on the board at my local credit union. The board makes decisions on certain large loans (we're all share holders - it's very different from a bank). I've never seen the board (and we're in a closed session) make a decision based on gender, skin color, sexuality, etc... In fact, I can't say it's certain, but I think we may have made some riskier loans because the applicant was female. I'd consider that sexist behavior.
I'm really not in a position where I can have any impact in a manner that I'd be comfortable with - assuming that it is a problem. If you are and see it as a problem then, as said, it's good if you can change it even just a little. I have other concerns (like malaria is an example) that I donate to.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Attacking the source of the information, not the information itself. Geeze man, I thought you could do better than that.
Why bother?
Do you think Bat Boy is really leading secret missions in Afghanistan or do you dismiss those claims out-of-hand as the source is obviously not credible?
The question, however, is why you would link to known kooks and tabloids as though they supported your groundless claims? What's next? WND? Weekly World News? The Onion?
The simple fact remains: There is no cover-up. For a conspiracy to exist to hide some information, it is necessary that there be something to actually hide!
If you believe they're trying and failing to hide something, what is it? Can you name that thing?
Obviously not. It doesn't exist. The facts don't fit your twisted narrative.
Required reading for internet skeptics
The facts don't fit your twisted narrative.
Its like you get it, but you're missing the one step to understand the point I tried to make in the post. So close man, one day, you will finally get it. Anyways, as I said earlier, you are just a waste of time. You find ways to discredit any information that disagrees with your twisted narrative. I wish I could live in such a sheltered world, but I prefer to read up on things and draw conclusions based on reals not feelz.
So you're saying you can't name the mysterious thing that's being covered up?
Why am I not surprised?
You find ways to discredit any information that disagrees with your twisted narrative.
What information? So far, all we've seen is outright lies and innuendo. Try bringing some facts to the table.
Required reading for internet skeptics