It is actually quite common to have IE6 support as a requirement for new intranet applications in enterprises. This is the reason why frameworks must still support IE6. (even though it is really really painful).
BTW: If browser-side programming is not your thing, take a look of Vaadin framework that combines GWT and server-side programming model.
This is not the question. I have bought tethering plan from my carrier. It works fine with any mobile phone in the world - except iPhone with version 3.1 firmware. It should not be my carriers problem to resolve this problem if Apple decides to default to "tethering disabled" for any carriers they have never heard of.
I have had both E90 and iPhone. iPhone is superior to E90 in most respects, but for SSH and typing in documents E90 wins hands down. Keyboard is excellent (the best there is in any smartphone), screen is huge (800 x 480). Only if it would run Linux....
I think that (just released) IT Mill Toolkit 5 is an answer to most of your questions:
*works on the server and the client => Java both on server and client.
*something that makes making UIs as easy as drag and drop => Not there yet. UI:s are programmed, but layouts can be composed in WYSIWYG manner.
*something that does not forgive idiot html "programmers" who write bad code => As it is based on Java, it has statical typing and compile-time checks.
*something that doesnt suffer from XSS => As most of the UI programming can be done on server-side, security is top notch (when comparing to client-side solutions)
*something that can be extended easily => Check
*something that can be "compiled" for faster execution => Check
*something thats implemented same way in all browsers (or even better doesnt require a browsers and works on range of platforms) => Relies on Google Web Toolkit compiler technology to abstract out browser differences. Google has done wonderful job with GWT 1.4 and while as runtime is not as fast as Flash, it is very browser agnostic. Furthermore - as most of the programming can be done on server, all UI widgets can be tested with wide variety of browsers.
"there are no frameworks (that I know of) that provide for things like fully semantic code, graceful degradation of capabilities, and full separation of content, behavior, and presentation"
Millstone UI Librarys base philosophy has been since its launch under LGPL in year 2002 to: (1) Program semantic (logical) users interfaces in Java, (2) Fully separate the presentation and behavior layer, (3) Gracefully adapt to "any" browser/terminal. You can create an user interface in Java and then use it with lynx (plain HTML without JavaScript) as well as with Firefox (or other AJAX capable browser) where the actions does not require changing pages. You can even create adapters for complitely different terminals - there has been prototypes for Swing, WAP, J2ME and Personal Java.
Quick comparison of "program AJAX UI in Java frameworks": echo2: released, server side executed, wysisyg ui editor millstone: prerelease, server side executed, theme separated from application zk: released, server side executed, xul support google web toolkit: beta, java executed on client, google brand
All of the toolkits try to solve the same problem - allow creation of rich web ui with Java and avoid infinite testing often with JavaScript centric AJAX programming. From technical point of view, millstone, echo2 and fk are fairly similar. Google stands out with novel idea of cross-compiling java to javascript, that might make UI more responsive, lower server load and introduce security problems and make creation of client-server separation harder.
From marketing point of view the game is quite clear - Google is the brand.
echo2, zk and millstone are backed by small companies that support and live from the frameworks. All those products somehow combine open source licensing with business. Googles motivations are not clear in this stage.
This is unfortunately a bug in IE with no good workaround (that we are aware of). This should be correct with other browsers (mozilla, firefox, safari,...).
Echo has a wonderful model of writing web user interfaces. My company IT Mill Ltd is the author of an Open Source lisenced (LGPL) Millstone User Interface Library that is very similar (in model) to Echo. In my (biased of course) opinion Millstone provides developers with better UI components and more flexibility.
Main difference is that Millstone UI components are not dependant on Web, but has been (as prototypes) shown to work also in Swing. When doing Web-development, Millstone provides flexibility of using XSL stylesheets (in addition to CSS) for themeing, which makes customization of Millstone UI easy and flexible.
BTW: In addition of being an Open Source project, commercial support is provided (by us) and currently Millstone is used (has been for 3 years) in very large commercial applications.
If you need to develop with Java using a modern IDE, an Apple laptop might not be what you are looking for. G4 is a lot slower running Eclipse than Pentium-M.
Anyway - I am currently typing an 800Mhz iBook G4 very happily and even run Eclipse on this one occasionally:)
Moreover, the offered SXGA+ screen does not work with Linux. It is ridiculous that some basic parts (like screen and power management) of a 'Linux-certified' laptop just don't work. IMHO Intel is shooting itself on the foot by not supporting its own hardware. I hope that AMD comes up with a good, supported competitor for Centrino ASAP.
For those wanting to have a working UNIX-laptop, I would recommend buying a PowerBook or an iBook instead of Linux-laptop. Everything works like charm - just apt-get it with fink. Only downsides are the G4 (when compared to Pentium-M) and low screen resolutions (when compared to SXGA+ or better screens offered on PC:s). Even the pricing is nowadays competitive with comparable PC:s.
Forget about the Tablet PC:s, you don't want to take any notes with pen anyway. I think that iBook G4 12" might be one of the most viable options currently: robust build, excellent OS, 6 hours battery life and cost effective price.
What really matters in search engines are trust, relevance, speed and features. In other categories competition might be strong, but it is hard to see that Microsoft-branded search engine could easily be as trusted as google in near future.
Echopoint looks very interesting and comprehensive collection of components. With compatible lisence (LGPL) it might event be possible to port some of the components to Millstone.
So to summarize comparison discussion, there is some philosophical (and architectural) differences in the design of the both frameworks. I wish that the both frameworks will find their audiences in the applications they are most suited for.
The product naming would not be taken so seriously. But on the API the good naming is very important. Everybody in IT Mill liked the name and still do.
One related naming issue: we first (in year 2000) called UI-components UI-automatas (UIA) to describe that they contain a state that is changed by sending events to them. Fortunately after the 1.0 we realized that this would be far to academic sounding and decided to rename. One of the name candidates was grain to follow the spirit of mill and millstone as well as Java beans:)
Version 3.0.1 released yesterday fully supports Saxon 6 and Saxon 7. The XSLT can be selected with normal system preferences (explained in install.txt)
In fact we created adapter prototypes for WAP, J2PE and J2ME (MIDP) on HP Bazaar Spring Camp (Helsinki, 2002). We tested the adapters with Nokia 6310i prototype and Nokia 9210 as well as Prototype HP Jordana PDA with HP JVM and MIDP environment (Thanks for HP and Nokia for their help!).
The MP3 jukebox example application as well as simple examples like calc were tested. Calc worked out of the box as expected (no recompilation was required), but player UI was just too big for phone screen. Simple solution was to add new window to player and put the control panel to it (the frame with all the buttons). This added just 2 or 3 lines of code to the application. The result was a server-side jukebok that could be controlled with WEB interface as well as mobile phones. J2ME adapter used a little midlet that interpreted UIDL directly and used native Nokia widgets. J2PE was similar, but used AWT.
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It is actually quite common to have IE6 support as a requirement for new intranet applications in enterprises. This is the reason why frameworks must still support IE6. (even though it is really really painful).
BTW: If browser-side programming is not your thing, take a look of Vaadin framework that combines GWT and server-side programming model.
Please give more details: what country? what provider? how they unlocked tethering?
The story is about factory unlocked iPhones with operators that are not Apple partners.
This is not the question. I have bought tethering plan from my carrier. It works fine with any mobile phone in the world - except iPhone with version 3.1 firmware. It should not be my carriers problem to resolve this problem if Apple decides to default to "tethering disabled" for any carriers they have never heard of.
You are wrong. This affects factory unlocked phones. Bought from a "normal outlet" - not jailbroken or hacked.
IT Mill Toolkit provides server-side API:s on top of GWT and thus gives you direct access to "stuff like EJB3". For an example, see this tutorial
Still relevant for owners of first generationÂ(unlocked, jailbroken) iPhone
I have had both E90 and iPhone. iPhone is superior to E90 in most respects, but for SSH and typing in documents E90 wins hands down. Keyboard is excellent (the best there is in any smartphone), screen is huge (800 x 480). Only if it would run Linux....
I think that (just released) IT Mill Toolkit 5 is an answer to most of your questions:
*works on the server and the client
=> Java both on server and client.
*something that makes making UIs as easy as drag and drop
=> Not there yet. UI:s are programmed, but layouts can be composed in WYSIWYG manner.
*something that does not forgive idiot html "programmers" who write bad code
=> As it is based on Java, it has statical typing and compile-time checks.
*something that doesnt suffer from XSS
=> As most of the UI programming can be done on server-side, security is top notch (when comparing to client-side solutions)
*something that can be extended easily
=> Check
*something that can be "compiled" for faster execution
=> Check
*something thats implemented same way in all browsers (or even better doesnt require a browsers and works on range of platforms)
=> Relies on Google Web Toolkit compiler technology to abstract out browser differences. Google has done wonderful job with GWT 1.4 and while as runtime is not as fast as Flash, it is very browser agnostic. Furthermore - as most of the programming can be done on server, all UI widgets can be tested with wide variety of browsers.
"there are no frameworks (that I know of) that provide for things like fully semantic code, graceful degradation of capabilities, and full separation of content, behavior, and presentation"
Millstone UI Librarys base philosophy has been since its launch under LGPL in year 2002 to: (1) Program semantic (logical) users interfaces in Java, (2) Fully separate the presentation and behavior layer, (3) Gracefully adapt to "any" browser/terminal. You can create an user interface in Java and then use it with lynx (plain HTML without JavaScript) as well as with Firefox (or other AJAX capable browser) where the actions does not require changing pages. You can even create adapters for complitely different terminals - there has been prototypes for Swing, WAP, J2ME and Personal Java.
See online AJAX demo in http://demo.itmill.com/AJAX/
Quick comparison of "program AJAX UI in Java frameworks":
echo2: released, server side executed, wysisyg ui editor
millstone: prerelease, server side executed, theme separated from application
zk: released, server side executed, xul support
google web toolkit: beta, java executed on client, google brand
All of the toolkits try to solve the same problem - allow creation of rich web ui with Java and avoid infinite testing often with JavaScript centric AJAX programming. From technical point of view, millstone, echo2 and fk are fairly similar. Google stands out with novel idea of cross-compiling java to javascript, that might make UI more responsive, lower server load and introduce security problems and make creation of client-server separation harder.
From marketing point of view the game is quite clear - Google is the brand.
echo2, zk and millstone are backed by small companies that support and live from the frameworks. All those products somehow combine open source licensing with business. Googles motivations are not clear in this stage.
For a quick demo about Millstone, see:
http://demo.itmill.com/AJAX/
Disclaimer: I am CEO of IT Mill Ltd that is the company behind Millstone UI Library.
OpenBSD accepts donations to help the situation:
http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html
Yes, cookies are currently required for storing the session.
This is unfortunately a bug in IE with no good workaround (that we are aware of). This should be correct with other browsers (mozilla, firefox, safari, ...).
What browser you are using?
Echo has a wonderful model of writing web user interfaces. My company IT Mill Ltd is the author of an Open Source lisenced (LGPL) Millstone User Interface Library that is very similar (in model) to Echo. In my (biased of course) opinion Millstone provides developers with better UI components and more flexibility.
Main difference is that Millstone UI components are not dependant on Web, but has been (as prototypes) shown to work also in Swing. When doing Web-development, Millstone provides flexibility of using XSL stylesheets (in addition to CSS) for themeing, which makes customization of Millstone UI easy and flexible.
See the the online demo. If you have any questions, please join our just opened discussion forum.
BTW: In addition of being an Open Source project, commercial support is provided (by us) and currently Millstone is used (has been for 3 years) in very large commercial applications.
If you need to develop with Java using a modern IDE, an Apple laptop might not be what you are looking for. G4 is a lot slower running Eclipse than Pentium-M.
:)
Anyway - I am currently typing an 800Mhz iBook G4 very happily and even run Eclipse on this one occasionally
Moreover, the offered SXGA+ screen does not work with Linux. It is ridiculous that some basic parts (like screen and power management) of a 'Linux-certified' laptop just don't work. IMHO Intel is shooting itself on the foot by not supporting its own hardware. I hope that AMD comes up with a good, supported competitor for Centrino ASAP.
For those wanting to have a working UNIX-laptop, I would recommend buying a PowerBook or an iBook instead of Linux-laptop. Everything works like charm - just apt-get it with fink. Only downsides are the G4 (when compared to Pentium-M) and low screen resolutions (when compared to SXGA+ or better screens offered on PC:s). Even the pricing is nowadays competitive with comparable PC:s.
Forget about the Tablet PC:s, you don't want to take any notes with pen anyway. I think that iBook G4 12" might be one of the most viable options currently: robust build, excellent OS, 6 hours battery life and cost effective price.
What really matters in search engines are trust, relevance, speed and features. In other categories competition might be strong, but it is hard to see that Microsoft-branded search engine could easily be as trusted as google in near future.
My prediction is that Google will win hands down.
Dave, this is for you, should I put my finger into your ear?
Echopoint looks very interesting and comprehensive collection of components. With compatible lisence (LGPL) it might event be possible to port some of the components to Millstone.
So to summarize comparison discussion, there is some philosophical (and architectural) differences in the design of the both frameworks. I wish that the both frameworks will find their audiences in the applications they are most suited for.
The product naming would not be taken so seriously. But on the API the good naming is very important. Everybody in IT Mill liked the name and still do.
:)
One related naming issue: we first (in year 2000) called UI-components UI-automatas (UIA) to describe that they contain a state that is changed by sending events to them. Fortunately after the 1.0 we realized that this would be far to academic sounding and decided to rename. One of the name candidates was grain to follow the spirit of mill and millstone as well as Java beans
Version 3.0.1 released yesterday fully supports Saxon 6 and Saxon 7. The XSLT can be selected with normal system preferences (explained in install.txt)
In fact we created adapter prototypes for WAP, J2PE and J2ME (MIDP) on HP Bazaar Spring Camp (Helsinki, 2002). We tested the adapters with Nokia 6310i prototype and Nokia 9210 as well as Prototype HP Jordana PDA with HP JVM and MIDP environment (Thanks for HP and Nokia for their help!).
The MP3 jukebox example application as well as simple examples like calc were tested. Calc worked out of the box as expected (no recompilation was required), but player UI was just too big for phone screen. Simple solution was to add new window to player and put the control panel to it (the frame with all the buttons). This added just 2 or 3 lines of code to the application. The result was a server-side jukebok that could be controlled with WEB interface as well as mobile phones. J2ME adapter used a little midlet that interpreted UIDL directly and used native Nokia widgets. J2PE was similar, but used AWT.