You got to think of it from the perspective of the invasion ship's IT guy who has to prevent a four-limbed creature who's trying to infect his infrastructure with a Mac.:-)
You need to realize that the 'v' is actually the BUFFER 'v', you know the one you can copy into by saying "vyW . This is of course very very useful to edit the macro when you've done something wrong. Simply do a "vp to paste the macro into the text area, then modify as necessary (you'll have to be careful of the control characters, then do "vy$ or similar to copy it back in. @v and boom you're in!
BTW, when you are recording a macro, I would strongly suggest you use hjkl for movement, and $, 0 etc., as opposed to the arrow keys. That will get rid of most of the control characters. hjkl takes some getting used to, but 5j, 5k, are worth the learning effort.
You can actually save the macro this way:-). I'm going to get abused for this, but I saved a macro that was going to be of use to the next guy who had to edit the code and instructions on how to use it. So all he has to do is edit some text which is PART of the macro, copy the macro into the buffer and execute it:-).
Do you mind-read across continents!? This is a brilliant list! I find myself doing these things, iteratively, until either I've run out of time, or the number of errors I catch have been zero in the last couple of passes.
Also, I find that doing this for emails that I send is EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY, profitable. Normally no one pays much attention to emails, or reads them with a great deal of attention. So paying extra attention while drafting email is quite effective in getting the job done.
I'll be saving this post of yours for every friend of mine who asks for help with his/her writing. Thanks!
This would be perfectly legal if the company was ODM/OEM'ing the product for Sony. Then they own the design, etc., and Sony might merely be branding it as their products.
Most of the people here seem to be quite sceptical of the results, while agreeing at the same time that they have not had any experience of this. Perhaps some one with personal experience with this in HCL could chime in?
While a bit of scepticism is expected from a bunch of geeks, I don't quite understand why everyone condemns this to failure. It's a reasonable idea, and just uses technology to get feedback distributed faster and more openly. Given the right management attitude, I'm sure this could work pretty well. Of course given the right management attitude, anything would help!
When did having multiple variables become demographics and not science? If you have a large enough sample size, you can choose your subjects with some variables for control. And why does this mean that there cannot be a separate control group?
Perhaps you do not know of mathematics now that can handle the number of variables and indicate their relative statistical significance. But given the data, I'm sure that mathematicians will rise to the challenge.
They would have to monitor 100,000 people, 24/7 and record EVERYTHING from where you worked, live, travelled to what you ate and where you bought it (and where it was produced and what chemicals were used on it).
Yes. And so what? Such storage could be totally under your own control, to be released on death perhaps, if you so choose.
Heh, Trying my best to change that situation:-D. I've switched a couple of people.... and if you're in Bangalore check out the Apple store in the Forum mall.
Same guys that said the Ipod would fail I suppose. Why do you care if it makes you look like the Borg if it is truly useful?
Why does the discussion move from the possible to the merely fashionable? I guess the guys who see the potential to make this an extension of say a Nintendo handheld, or the PSP would actually go out and do it, and not be whining on/. Make it for both eyes, plug in to a PSP, play a game of Burnout:Revenge, or perhaps even a FPS? Instant immersion nearly anywhere (don't try this while driving).
And some of these guys think that they are nerds... When it comes to judging products on fashionability vs utility, you're just as bad as any one else...
I didn't know that working 60 hour work-weeks... constituted a cushy job.
If you have a job, if you have shelter, it's a cliche, but you have it much better off than most of the world.
In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if you have seen the *real* bowels of American IT Hell.
Yep, I've seen it. I was in the US between 2000-2004. I saw the best of times, and the worst of times. And you my friend have no conception of where India and China are coming from. The levels of unemployment, the poverty and hunger have to be seen to be believed. At the very least, in the US it is far harder to actually starve. If you want to survive get a job to live, you can probably do so. The situation in India or China is nowhere near as good.
My real hope is that this cycle of technology will help us increase our education levels, and our efficiency levels. That will help us feed our millions and enable a better standard of life. The key point that most people seem to miss is that with a billion people market, we really can drive ourself out of the ground. What is needed is initial capital, but given that boom (like for example the wwII spending in the US, or the spending on the space race) we'll probably pull ourselves out of the well.
I harbour no ill-will against you. I sincerely hope your country grows and prospers. But I hope you don't make the same short-sighted money-oriented mistakes we have made, and are just now beginning to pay dearly for.
Thanks, I hope we learn from your mistakes. We have already learnt a lot - you'll probably never see India colonizing another country at least, or trying to interfere in their internal affairs. And our democracy (less swayed by talk, and more by raw economics) has already kicked out a couple of governments which were seen as being pro-corporate and anti-poor (Andhra Pradesh, and the Central Govt. too).
You seem to have this impression that all American IT workers...
Nope. Like I said, I've been there. I have friends working there, and I know that the working environment is not rosy at all. I must admit that I know many places where the H1B's have screwed up the work environment, with their work ethic.
But no, I'm not willing to take the death-march kind of environment, and in fact in quite a few of the startups here, you see the realization that working 60+hrs a week, month after month is counter-productive. What people also fail to notice or mention is that many of the companies in India take on some of the latest processes and try to do work that is state-of-the-art. But you rarely hear of that. Instead what you hear is incessant whining about how we're taking away the 'easy' jobs.
Re: your point on free/open source vs. MS/Oracle et al. Well my friend, do you think that all those Indian's in the US have had their eyes closed for the past 15-20 years? We *are* learning from your lessons. Witness the multiple versions of Linux that have come out in local languages. Witness the state governments setting up school labs with localized RedHat. MS tries very hard to get windows on all machines, but guess what? Cost rules here. MS tries to say that for bulk purchases they'll give Windows for $50 a seat. Well, the govts. are buying whole PC's for $200, because that's all they can afford!! You think they'll pay $50 more? Not happening.
Many people do see MS as a welcome opportunity --- to work for MS guarantees wealth (in relative terms) and is therefore a good thing. However, in the market, cost will rule. The indian market (for telecom too) is the most cost-competitive in the world. Our call rates (cellphone) are among the lowest in the world --- Rs 1.80(4c) per min to any cell in India. If similar functionalities, as present in Windows, can be provided everyone *will* take linux. You don't have t
What did we do to your economy? It's American capitalism which is leading american companies to export jobs to India and China. And you blame India/China for that? Hilarious.
Oh, and you know what would happen if India/China stopped importing stuff from Europe/America right? We're in this world together, there are some things you guys have more of than us, there are others where we might be better off.
There used to be a time when America used to be more hungry for success, where doing was seen as more important than talking, and there was no attitude of entitlement. Those days have passed. Look at the whiners around you.
Oh, and the USA is not the only land-surplus country in the world. Much of South America, Africa and probably parts of Australia can serve as sources of food.
You people think you're aborting baby girls for population control now? Wait'll angry, out of work Americans stop exporting food.
Nice comeback. You sound just like an angry 4 year old who has misplaced his toy. Just imagine what India/China and the other third-world countries should do to the 'civilized first-world' for ~100+ years of colonization.
While we do have a population problem, both India and China are well on the way to controlling the growth. Education seems to do that quite well, and whatever your image of India is, I can assure you that the education levels are increasing (albeit slowly).
Good to hear you are/were working hard. Sorry to hear you got laid-off.
But y'know, there are industries in India that have little or nothing to do with exporting products or importing jobs to/from the US. You just haven't heard about them. Assuming that there are a hundred million Indians just thirsting to take your low-paid jobs is a fearful picture, but not quite true.
And, when did these industries become 'your own'? Are you saying we should stop buying from American companies, because it's better to support our own industries? Or that we should open our market to American companies, because globalisation helps us? At least that's what everyone's been telling us over the past 15 years. We did open our economy, and now that we're on our way to reaping some of the benefits, suddenly some people realise that hey, Indians can actually do the same things we can, and they'll do it for less. And suddenly, it's personal?
When American/European and Japanese companies destroyed/out-competed our indigenous industries it's fine. But when we, the people, compete with you for your jobs, it's not? Somehow it smells like hypocrisy to me.
You have the educational institutions, you have the capital, you have the resources. Why d'you want to do the lowball jobs? Start some bio-tech, find out how to generate clean and cheap energy, find out ways to really clean up pollution, and we'll line up at your door to buy from you. If you want to keep the lowball jobs, and you don't want to get educated, or use your capital, well, that's capitalism rolling right over you.
Unlike physical goods, jobs have lives attached to them. When you take the job (unrightfully)...
I'm not sure how this is any different from import/export of goods. When the US exports something, the job *could* have been done in India. But it wasn't, and is therefore *unrightfully* taking away potential earnings of someone in India. See how stupid that sounds?
People in India and the US have different capabilities, perhaps because of education, perhaps because of available equipment, how these are arbitraged and the best possible outcome reached is what will occupy us for this century I think.
When they improve their human rights and / or have their US companies heavily taxed for these normally untaxed assets until things improve, their rightful share does not exist.
That's funny. Really. Why does the US have a right to decide what human rights are? And FWIW, India is not too bad on this score. At least in comparison to some of the US-propped dictators, and many of the other places in the world. And you really think that human rights were upheld during the Industrial revolution? You guys built your industries on the sweat and blood of your own people and that of your slaves. We've learnt a lot from that. We're just building with our own sweat and blood.
And if we want to give some tax breaks so we can get a foot in, of course we will. You think that the US would not do it? Or for that matter any other western country? Witness the concessions offered to Intel(?), AMD(dresden), Dell(NC) or TI(dallas) to start one of their fabs/factories.
And you have the gall to decide what out rightful share is? Wow. I'll just crawl back to my hole in the mud now, since you say I don't have a rightful share. That's the kind of attitude that got you into trouble in Afghanistan and Iraq and Vietnam. You should learn sometime.
Heh, that's quite funny. We have the second largest market in the world. Do you really think that in 20 years time, we'll still be dependent on exports to the US as our primary income?
We don't have a god-given right to profits. Neither do you. What we have is a lot of people. What you have is a lot of land. I'm sure we will work things out eventually.
Note that I have absolutely nothing against any American as such; I quite enjoyed being in the US and interacting with Americans; they are just as smart as everyone else. Just that when people whine about their jobs being 'stolen', it's pathetic.
And please, don't worry too much about us starving. We've built up a decent technological base, and quite a decent agricultural base. We'll make do somehow, and we can and will import food if necessary.
Err... you didn't read it correctly. I said companies started by people who've made money at Infy/Wipro/TCS/.com boom etc. I didn't quote TCS/Infy/PCS as 'star firms':-). That would be a bit weird in the product company context:-).
Iflex was doing decently, and I think Ramco Systems is doing decently too. And of course tally has a very large chunk of the local market.
Why don't you go build your own economy instead of being the bottom ranks of some other country's corporation? Israel did it in about 60 years, why can't you?
Israel got massive amounts of assistance from the US. Probably not the best of analogies.
We *are* building our own companies. And they will compete on the world scale. But it'll be a while before you notice, because they'll have to survive in India first.
And we will take the bottom jobs, 'cos we're desperate, but we will go up on the value-chain. Just like Japanese companies did, and just like Taiwanese and Chinese companies are doing now.
Yeah, blame us because the CIA likes to topple hostile democracies and set up friendly dictatorships, because I personally oversaw those ops.
Ooh, I thought you guys were a republic and could control your goons. Sorry, I was mistaken.
Yep. It doesn't take tens of thousands of developers to localize software.
So? Perhaps there is need for some local software for our government/companies which is not exactly the same as those they sell abroad? (Not MS in this case). Should that work not be done in India. If for example, IBM Global services takes a contract from an Indian company should they not do it in India? And if these guys are good enough, and cost less, could they not do American projects too? I mean those are the arguments which are used to justify imports into India.
Who's going to hire fresh grads if MS shifts most of its hiring to India? Yeah, we've got startups like crazy, but what happens when the business plan requires shifting all development to India after 5 years?
Don't worry about it. Most of the MS/PhD students in the US(at least in tech) are either Chinese or Indian anyway. We'll just trip right back for our jobs. And we'll probably need Americans for getting cultural things right. And if we're ever running out of cotton or wheat, we know who to call. You guys do have lots of a precious natural resource - arable land.
Hmm, I really shouldn't have put in that rant on history.
I really didn't mean to make it come off as blaming the US/Britain for our ills, and that's not what I wanted to talk about at all.
Democracy, upholding what you call freedom, is what allows us to actually control what happens in the long term. We do not have economic freedom - yet. We will eventually, and it will happen because the politicians have to listen to us.
I agree that hiding under a rock, under a protectionist trade regime may not have been the wisest thing to do, in hindsight. But we're learning and we're climbing out. And we will make it up for the last 60 years.
Re you last para. *Exactly!* When did people lose this attitude of *EARNING* wealth, and feel entitled to high-tech jobs? And why is there whining every time some jobs are started in India?
Errr, yes. That's what he was saying. Britain did strip India of most of its wealth in about 100 odd years. From having a significant chunk (~20%) of the world's trade, before British rule, to less than a single digit at the end of their rule.
Note that I did not blame the British for our current situation, just that there was a reason we were in such a state 50 years ago. It didn't help that we went into a closed economy and corrupt practices.
But we're learning, and we're climbing out. We'd like some help, but we're not waiting for it.
And it's just a message board, no need to get all hissy about it, and increase your blood pressure.
Heh, yeah my education sucks. But I must say your universities are top-notch, having been at one for about 4 years.
I really shouldn't have written the part about history, it's diverted my real message.
The fact is, MS hiring people in India is a simple consequence of the market in India growing. There are also enough *sufficiently skilled* people in India who can do these jobs. All these years, when no MNC had a manufacturing or R&D base in India, and were importing billions of dollars worth of stuff, all I heard from the West was that we needed an even freer economy, and that once we'd opened up further we'd be able to get rich. We did that. And now that the people are able to take on some high-tech jobs, some start whining.
Oh, and we've figured out that we need to make our own products. We're doing it too. You'll probably hear of the results in a few years. It's taken us this much time to get enough capital and enough technical skills to get on the boat.
Since you guys have all this capital, I'm sure that you can find something worthwhile to do to double and triple it right, just like we're going to with our local companies?
You wanna build India? Build products for Indians. Service those products and support those products.
Doing just that. There *are* companies in India making products for the Indian market. They're mostly started off by NRI's who've made it big in the US, or by those who've made it big at Infy, TCS, et al. The reason you haven't heard of any of them is that most of these companies have start after 2K, which is when real funding was available in India, for Indian startups.
We will get there, and when we do, we'll have cost-structures that no MNC company can beat, we'll be able to make profits on absurdly low margins, because we'll need to be the most cost-conscious on Earth. And when we have our basics firmed up, we *will* move up the value chain.
Re: your points on history. I probably made a mistake putting those in. Caused too much of a mis-focus:-(. But any reasonable history of India will tell you that the economy in shambles in India in 1947 was a result of the huge amounts of wealth that was siphoned off by the British. How'd they do that? The imported raw materials, and exported the finished goods back to us. All while disallowing the value-add to happen right here. Simple examples are of course textiles. Steel is also a good example. Saying that we didn't lose anything worth keeping is really missing the point by a mile.
Re: American attitudes. It's possible that the corps have too much power and are abusing it to 'export' jobs. But why, I ask, is it right to export products to India, but not export jobs to India? I guess people have difficulty in accepting that service is seen as a product too.
Re: Getting pissed off... Check my post, if you think I said that Indians are the best, read it again. I have no such mis-conceptions. I merely want to see India and China get what they deserve, in terms of a share of what this world produces. Nothing more, nothing less.
:-) As Indian as I can be. I've been in the US (Texas) for about 4 years. Did my MS and picked up quite a bit from my Italian, Chinese, Argentinian and Iranian professors. Funnily enough I interacted very briefly with only one American prof.
Thanks for the compliment on my English. Reading does that to you.
And yes, I did feel I was flaming a bit too much. But what really bothered me was what I see as the sliding of the much-vaunted American attitude to life. Work hard and you can make it big, was what I thought it was. Fine we can do that too.
Open your markets to our exports, we'll do the same, and we can both be rich, seemed to be the mantra. Forced by our economic scenario we did, and we have prospered, as did your exports. Now that we have learnt enough (from America and Europe and Japan) and are able to do some high-tech jobs, suddenly people start whining, as if those jobs belonged to them? That's the attitude I can't understand.
I think that China has made a substantial change in the world economy. When India joins the party, it's going to shift from the US/Europe centric economy to an Asia centric economy. This is a matter of natural economics - which company would not like to have half the world's population as its market?
I'm not sure I could have put my ideas on less of a flame. But I feel that most of the points I've made are valid, and most of the replies seem to concentrate on peripheral issues in my post, without replying to the real crux of the post - when half of humanity tries to pull itself up, there are going to be changes for everyone.
I'm in India, and no I don't see any reason to be even slightly concerned because we're supposedly taking away your God-given right to technology jobs.
When did you guys lose your "Give me your poor, tired and huddled masses...' and 'if you work you can make it big' attitudes and get this entitlement attitude?
What should we have done when you colonised us and took away our wealth built up over centuries, if not millenia? When India alone accounted for a few dozen percent of world trade? Now that you guys are on top, you'd like to keep a third of humanity down forever?
And did you even consider in your pompousness that some of the software that MS does might be for the local market? Or do you even realise that there's a world outside the US, and languages other than English? And that developing software in the local languages might, conceivably, be easier in that country?
And, the ex-Soviet states are already technologically and educationally above India/China. What we do have is a huge mass of humanity trying desperately for three square meals a day, clothing and a roof over the head. Considering this, I think with our democracy, we're doing pretty well thank you.
Come to think of it there are/were many democracies doing quite well until some pompous pricks decided that they were not right-wing enough. Hmm, can you name the pricks?
One would think that if you post on/. you'd realize the number of unsolved problems in *every* field of science and engineering around us, and welcome the larger number of hands available to solve these problems.
Don't you want to get off this Earth? Don't you want mankind to ensure its safety with colonies off the Earth? Do you think that's going to happen when a third of humanity is without any technology?
And for those who think we have no home-grown tech companies, wait and watch. There are companies capable to giving any MNC a run for its money, and is as ruthless as any other (not that I'm happy about this). Do you know the owners of some of the largest trans-oceanic fiber networks are now Indian companies? That some of the largest steel producers in the world are from India? One of the top-three media (cd/dvd/cdr) manufacturers in the world?
Napolean once said "China is a sleeping giant. Let her sleep, for when she wakes she will shake the world." A large portion of humanity is trying very hard to regain its due. The world order will change. Be prepared for it.
This probably came off as something of a rant. So be it. When I see people struggling for their lives everyday, and see someone complaining because they theoretically 'lost' their cushy job to the 'third-world' only because of cost, I just lose it:-/
Also, there are extensive plans to build a Golden Quadrilateral of *railroads*, paralleling the roads. These would be primarily used for freight, between the big cities, and from the ports inland. The resulting reduction in utilization on the regular railroads would allow for more and faster passenger trains.
Right now the fastest trains typically cover about 100kmph average. Madras-Bangalore (360km) takes about 4hrs. If they can cut it to about 2 or 2:30, It'll make my weekend trips so much better:-D.
Of course, it's hard to correctly estimate the transport needs of a billion people, so anything that makes movement easier is probably a good idea B-).
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You got to think of it from the perspective of the invasion ship's IT guy who has to prevent a four-limbed creature who's trying to infect his infrastructure with a Mac. :-)
You need to realize that the 'v' is actually the BUFFER 'v', you know the one you can copy into by saying "vyW . This is of course very very useful to edit the macro when you've done something wrong. Simply do a "vp to paste the macro into the text area, then modify as necessary (you'll have to be careful of the control characters, then do "vy$ or similar to copy it back in. @v and boom you're in!
:-). I'm going to get abused for this, but I saved a macro that was going to be of use to the next guy who had to edit the code and instructions on how to use it. So all he has to do is edit some text which is PART of the macro, copy the macro into the buffer and execute it :-).
BTW, when you are recording a macro, I would strongly suggest you use hjkl for movement, and $, 0 etc., as opposed to the arrow keys. That will get rid of most of the control characters. hjkl takes some getting used to, but 5j, 5k, are worth the learning effort.
You can actually save the macro this way
Enjoy!
Do you mind-read across continents!? This is a brilliant list! I find myself doing these things, iteratively, until either I've run out of time, or the number of errors I catch have been zero in the last couple of passes.
Also, I find that doing this for emails that I send is EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY, profitable. Normally no one pays much attention to emails, or reads them with a great deal of attention. So paying extra attention while drafting email is quite effective in getting the job done.
I'll be saving this post of yours for every friend of mine who asks for help with his/her writing. Thanks!
This would be perfectly legal if the company was ODM/OEM'ing the product for Sony. Then they own the design, etc., and Sony might merely be branding it as their products.
Most of the people here seem to be quite sceptical of the results, while agreeing at the same time that they have not had any experience of this. Perhaps some one with personal experience with this in HCL could chime in?
While a bit of scepticism is expected from a bunch of geeks, I don't quite understand why everyone condemns this to failure. It's a reasonable idea, and just uses technology to get feedback distributed faster and more openly. Given the right management attitude, I'm sure this could work pretty well. Of course given the right management attitude, anything would help!
When did having multiple variables become demographics and not science? If you have a large enough sample size, you can choose your subjects with some variables for control. And why does this mean that there cannot be a separate control group?
Perhaps you do not know of mathematics now that can handle the number of variables and indicate their relative statistical significance. But given the data, I'm sure that mathematicians will rise to the challenge.
Yes. And so what? Such storage could be totally under your own control, to be released on death perhaps, if you so choose.
Heh, Trying my best to change that situation :-D. I've switched a couple of people.... and if you're in Bangalore check out the Apple store in the Forum mall.
48Gigabits per second sounds pretty decent to me, unless you meant 6Gigabits per second?
Same guys that said the Ipod would fail I suppose. Why do you care if it makes you look like the Borg if it is truly useful?
/. Make it for both eyes, plug in to a PSP, play a game of Burnout:Revenge, or perhaps even a FPS? Instant immersion nearly anywhere (don't try this while driving).
Why does the discussion move from the possible to the merely fashionable? I guess the guys who see the potential to make this an extension of say a Nintendo handheld, or the PSP would actually go out and do it, and not be whining on
And some of these guys think that they are nerds... When it comes to judging products on fashionability vs utility, you're just as bad as any one else...
And don't forget tasty food...
After all, if God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat...
A profit either way.
If you have a job, if you have shelter, it's a cliche, but you have it much better off than most of the world.
Yep, I've seen it. I was in the US between 2000-2004. I saw the best of times, and the worst of times. And you my friend have no conception of where India and China are coming from. The levels of unemployment, the poverty and hunger have to be seen to be believed. At the very least, in the US it is far harder to actually starve. If you want to survive get a job to live, you can probably do so. The situation in India or China is nowhere near as good.
My real hope is that this cycle of technology will help us increase our education levels, and our efficiency levels. That will help us feed our millions and enable a better standard of life. The key point that most people seem to miss is that with a billion people market, we really can drive ourself out of the ground. What is needed is initial capital, but given that boom (like for example the wwII spending in the US, or the spending on the space race) we'll probably pull ourselves out of the well.
Thanks, I hope we learn from your mistakes. We have already learnt a lot - you'll probably never see India colonizing another country at least, or trying to interfere in their internal affairs. And our democracy (less swayed by talk, and more by raw economics) has already kicked out a couple of governments which were seen as being pro-corporate and anti-poor (Andhra Pradesh, and the Central Govt. too).
Nope. Like I said, I've been there. I have friends working there, and I know that the working environment is not rosy at all. I must admit that I know many places where the H1B's have screwed up the work environment, with their work ethic.
But no, I'm not willing to take the death-march kind of environment, and in fact in quite a few of the startups here, you see the realization that working 60+hrs a week, month after month is counter-productive. What people also fail to notice or mention is that many of the companies in India take on some of the latest processes and try to do work that is state-of-the-art. But you rarely hear of that. Instead what you hear is incessant whining about how we're taking away the 'easy' jobs.
Re: your point on free/open source vs. MS/Oracle et al.
Well my friend, do you think that all those Indian's in the US have had their eyes closed for the past 15-20 years? We *are* learning from your lessons. Witness the multiple versions of Linux that have come out in local languages. Witness the state governments setting up school labs with localized RedHat. MS tries very hard to get windows on all machines, but guess what? Cost rules here. MS tries to say that for bulk purchases they'll give Windows for $50 a seat. Well, the govts. are buying whole PC's for $200, because that's all they can afford!! You think they'll pay $50 more? Not happening.
Many people do see MS as a welcome opportunity --- to work for MS guarantees wealth (in relative terms) and is therefore a good thing. However, in the market, cost will rule. The indian market (for telecom too) is the most cost-competitive in the world. Our call rates (cellphone) are among the lowest in the world --- Rs 1.80(4c) per min to any cell in India. If similar functionalities, as present in Windows, can be provided everyone *will* take linux. You don't have t
What did we do to your economy? It's American capitalism which is leading american companies to export jobs to India and China. And you blame India/China for that? Hilarious.
Oh, and you know what would happen if India/China stopped importing stuff from Europe/America right? We're in this world together, there are some things you guys have more of than us, there are others where we might be better off.
There used to be a time when America used to be more hungry for success, where doing was seen as more important than talking, and there was no attitude of entitlement. Those days have passed. Look at the whiners around you.
Oh, and the USA is not the only land-surplus country in the world. Much of South America, Africa and probably parts of Australia can serve as sources of food.
Nice comeback. You sound just like an angry 4 year old who has misplaced his toy. Just imagine what India/China and the other third-world countries should do to the 'civilized first-world' for ~100+ years of colonization.
While we do have a population problem, both India and China are well on the way to controlling the growth. Education seems to do that quite well, and whatever your image of India is, I can assure you that the education levels are increasing (albeit slowly).
Good to hear you are/were working hard. Sorry to hear you got laid-off.
But y'know, there are industries in India that have little or nothing to do with exporting products or importing jobs to/from the US. You just haven't heard about them. Assuming that there are a hundred million Indians just thirsting to take your low-paid jobs is a fearful picture, but not quite true.
And, when did these industries become 'your own'? Are you saying we should stop buying from American companies, because it's better to support our own industries? Or that we should open our market to American companies, because globalisation helps us? At least that's what everyone's been telling us over the past 15 years. We did open our economy, and now that we're on our way to reaping some of the benefits, suddenly some people realise that hey, Indians can actually do the same things we can, and they'll do it for less. And suddenly, it's personal?
When American/European and Japanese companies destroyed/out-competed our indigenous industries it's fine. But when we, the people, compete with you for your jobs, it's not? Somehow it smells like hypocrisy to me.
You have the educational institutions, you have the capital, you have the resources. Why d'you want to do the lowball jobs? Start some bio-tech, find out how to generate clean and cheap energy, find out ways to really clean up pollution, and we'll line up at your door to buy from you. If you want to keep the lowball jobs, and you don't want to get educated, or use your capital, well, that's capitalism rolling right over you.
I'm not sure how this is any different from import/export of goods. When the US exports something, the job *could* have been done in India. But it wasn't, and is therefore *unrightfully* taking away potential earnings of someone in India. See how stupid that sounds?
People in India and the US have different capabilities, perhaps because of education, perhaps because of available equipment, how these are arbitraged and the best possible outcome reached is what will occupy us for this century I think.
That's funny. Really. Why does the US have a right to decide what human rights are? And FWIW, India is not too bad on this score. At least in comparison to some of the US-propped dictators, and many of the other places in the world. And you really think that human rights were upheld during the Industrial revolution? You guys built your industries on the sweat and blood of your own people and that of your slaves. We've learnt a lot from that. We're just building with our own sweat and blood.
And if we want to give some tax breaks so we can get a foot in, of course we will. You think that the US would not do it? Or for that matter any other western country? Witness the concessions offered to Intel(?), AMD(dresden), Dell(NC) or TI(dallas) to start one of their fabs/factories.
And you have the gall to decide what out rightful share is? Wow. I'll just crawl back to my hole in the mud now, since you say I don't have a rightful share. That's the kind of attitude that got you into trouble in Afghanistan and Iraq and Vietnam. You should learn sometime.
Heh, that's quite funny. We have the second largest market in the world. Do you really think that in 20 years time, we'll still be dependent on exports to the US as our primary income?
We don't have a god-given right to profits. Neither do you. What we have is a lot of people. What you have is a lot of land. I'm sure we will work things out eventually.
Note that I have absolutely nothing against any American as such; I quite enjoyed being in the US and interacting with Americans; they are just as smart as everyone else. Just that when people whine about their jobs being 'stolen', it's pathetic.
And please, don't worry too much about us starving. We've built up a decent technological base, and quite a decent agricultural base. We'll make do somehow, and we can and will import food if necessary.
Err... you didn't read it correctly. I said companies started by people who've made money at Infy/Wipro/TCS/.com boom etc. I didn't quote TCS/Infy/PCS as 'star firms' :-). That would be a bit weird in the product company context :-).
Iflex was doing decently, and I think Ramco Systems is doing decently too. And of course tally has a very large chunk of the local market.
Israel got massive amounts of assistance from the US. Probably not the best of analogies.
We *are* building our own companies. And they will compete on the world scale. But it'll be a while before you notice, because they'll have to survive in India first.
And we will take the bottom jobs, 'cos we're desperate, but we will go up on the value-chain. Just like Japanese companies did, and just like Taiwanese and Chinese companies are doing now.
Ooh, I thought you guys were a republic and could control your goons. Sorry, I was mistaken.
So? Perhaps there is need for some local software for our government/companies which is not exactly the same as those they sell abroad? (Not MS in this case). Should that work not be done in India. If for example, IBM Global services takes a contract from an Indian company should they not do it in India? And if these guys are good enough, and cost less, could they not do American projects too? I mean those are the arguments which are used to justify imports into India.
Hmm, I really shouldn't have put in that rant on history.
I really didn't mean to make it come off as blaming the US/Britain for our ills, and that's not what I wanted to talk about at all.
Democracy, upholding what you call freedom, is what allows us to actually control what happens in the long term. We do not have economic freedom - yet. We will eventually, and it will happen because the politicians have to listen to us.
I agree that hiding under a rock, under a protectionist trade regime may not have been the wisest thing to do, in hindsight. But we're learning and we're climbing out. And we will make it up for the last 60 years.
Re you last para. *Exactly!* When did people lose this attitude of *EARNING* wealth, and feel entitled to high-tech jobs? And why is there whining every time some jobs are started in India?
Errr, yes. That's what he was saying. Britain did strip India of most of its wealth in about 100 odd years. From having a significant chunk (~20%) of the world's trade, before British rule, to less than a single digit at the end of their rule.
Note that I did not blame the British for our current situation, just that there was a reason we were in such a state 50 years ago. It didn't help that we went into a closed economy and corrupt practices.
But we're learning, and we're climbing out. We'd like some help, but we're not waiting for it.
And it's just a message board, no need to get all hissy about it, and increase your blood pressure.
Heh, yeah my education sucks. But I must say your universities are top-notch, having been at one for about 4 years.
I really shouldn't have written the part about history, it's diverted my real message.
The fact is, MS hiring people in India is a simple consequence of the market in India growing. There are also enough *sufficiently skilled* people in India who can do these jobs. All these years, when no MNC had a manufacturing or R&D base in India, and were importing billions of dollars worth of stuff, all I heard from the West was that we needed an even freer economy, and that once we'd opened up further we'd be able to get rich. We did that. And now that the people are able to take on some high-tech jobs, some start whining.
Oh, and we've figured out that we need to make our own products. We're doing it too. You'll probably hear of the results in a few years. It's taken us this much time to get enough capital and enough technical skills to get on the boat.
Since you guys have all this capital, I'm sure that you can find something worthwhile to do to double and triple it right, just like we're going to with our local companies?
Doing just that. There *are* companies in India making products for the Indian market. They're mostly started off by NRI's who've made it big in the US, or by those who've made it big at Infy, TCS, et al. The reason you haven't heard of any of them is that most of these companies have start after 2K, which is when real funding was available in India, for Indian startups.
We will get there, and when we do, we'll have cost-structures that no MNC company can beat, we'll be able to make profits on absurdly low margins, because we'll need to be the most cost-conscious on Earth. And when we have our basics firmed up, we *will* move up the value chain.
Re: your points on history. I probably made a mistake putting those in. Caused too much of a mis-focus
Re: American attitudes. It's possible that the corps have too much power and are abusing it to 'export' jobs. But why, I ask, is it right to export products to India, but not export jobs to India? I guess people have difficulty in accepting that service is seen as a product too.
Re: Getting pissed off... Check my post, if you think I said that Indians are the best, read it again. I have no such mis-conceptions. I merely want to see India and China get what they deserve, in terms of a share of what this world produces. Nothing more, nothing less.
:-) As Indian as I can be. I've been in the US (Texas) for about 4 years. Did my MS and picked up quite a bit from my Italian, Chinese, Argentinian and Iranian professors. Funnily enough I interacted very briefly with only one American prof.
Thanks for the compliment on my English. Reading does that to you.
And yes, I did feel I was flaming a bit too much. But what really bothered me was what I see as the sliding of the much-vaunted American attitude to life. Work hard and you can make it big, was what I thought it was. Fine we can do that too.
Open your markets to our exports, we'll do the same, and we can both be rich, seemed to be the mantra. Forced by our economic scenario we did, and we have prospered, as did your exports. Now that we have learnt enough (from America and Europe and Japan) and are able to do some high-tech jobs, suddenly people start whining, as if those jobs belonged to them? That's the attitude I can't understand.
I think that China has made a substantial change in the world economy. When India joins the party, it's going to shift from the US/Europe centric economy to an Asia centric economy. This is a matter of natural economics - which company would not like to have half the world's population as its market?
I'm not sure I could have put my ideas on less of a flame. But I feel that most of the points I've made are valid, and most of the replies seem to concentrate on peripheral issues in my post, without replying to the real crux of the post - when half of humanity tries to pull itself up, there are going to be changes for everyone.
Have fun!
I'm in India, and no I don't see any reason to be even slightly concerned because we're supposedly taking away your God-given right to technology jobs.
...' and 'if you work you can make it big' attitudes and get this entitlement attitude?
/. you'd realize the number of unsolved problems in *every* field of science and engineering around us, and welcome the larger number of hands available to solve these problems.
:-/
When did you guys lose your "Give me your poor, tired and huddled masses
What should we have done when you colonised us and took away our wealth built up over centuries, if not millenia? When India alone accounted for a few dozen percent of world trade? Now that you guys are on top, you'd like to keep a third of humanity down forever?
And did you even consider in your pompousness that some of the software that MS does might be for the local market? Or do you even realise that there's a world outside the US, and languages other than English? And that developing software in the local languages might, conceivably, be easier in that country?
And, the ex-Soviet states are already technologically and educationally above India/China. What we do have is a huge mass of humanity trying desperately for three square meals a day, clothing and a roof over the head. Considering this, I think with our democracy, we're doing pretty well thank you.
Come to think of it there are/were many democracies doing quite well until some pompous pricks decided that they were not right-wing enough. Hmm, can you name the pricks?
One would think that if you post on
Don't you want to get off this Earth? Don't you want mankind to ensure its safety with colonies off the Earth? Do you think that's going to happen when a third of humanity is without any technology?
And for those who think we have no home-grown tech companies, wait and watch. There are companies capable to giving any MNC a run for its money, and is as ruthless as any other (not that I'm happy about this). Do you know the owners of some of the largest trans-oceanic fiber networks are now Indian companies? That some of the largest steel producers in the world are from India? One of the top-three media (cd/dvd/cdr) manufacturers in the world?
Napolean once said "China is a sleeping giant. Let her sleep, for when she wakes she will shake the world." A large portion of humanity is trying very hard to regain its due. The world order will change. Be prepared for it.
This probably came off as something of a rant. So be it. When I see people struggling for their lives everyday, and see someone complaining because they theoretically 'lost' their cushy job to the 'third-world' only because of cost, I just lose it
Also, there are extensive plans to build a Golden Quadrilateral of *railroads*, paralleling the roads. These would be primarily used for freight, between the big cities, and from the ports inland. The resulting reduction in utilization on the regular railroads would allow for more and faster passenger trains.
:-D.
Right now the fastest trains typically cover about 100kmph average. Madras-Bangalore (360km) takes about 4hrs. If they can cut it to about 2 or 2:30, It'll make my weekend trips so much better
Of course, it's hard to correctly estimate the transport needs of a billion people, so anything that makes movement easier is probably a good idea B-).