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India's Road To The Future
Paul 03244 writes "Historians, economists and technologists agree that movement of ideas, goods and services are fundamental to trade & advancement of the human condition. Today's online version of the NYT has a rather lengthy but fascinating article on the construction of a modern highway system in India that details some of the social & cultural changes being brought about by this highway project." Interesting to look at the parallels between the spread of tech and services in India and the same process in the U.S.
Because the project is being outsourced to the United States.
Good thing they will have those new highways. Now they'll have a quick way to get their kids to the hospital when the smog induced asthma attacks happen!
I thought India was metric.
This is India's great opportunity to get modern. They've got a lot of potential sites with the .asia top-level domain.
[sig]
Highways were first thought up by Hitler to aid the Blitzkrieg technique and move armies and supplies quickly around Germany. He correctly imagined that the bottleneck in modern industrial warfare was not in the factory at all but in the delivery in the goods to the battlefield.
Truman developed the US highway system to prepare for war with the USSR. The long east-west highways would be the long supply chains bringing supplies from northeastern factories (i.e. Detroit) to the Western front/staging area in California. Highways out west were designed to be wide enough and have a long enough straight line to allow for a B52 bomber to land and be refueled. They still practice this to this day.
Slashdotters are fond of posting that porn and warfare drive technology. Highway systems are driven by warfare.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
No Open Defecation By 2010. Puts a whole new spin on the phrase "outsourcing".
-- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.
I came across an article in the Economist. They are much more cautious about the economic development in India. They mention corruption, bureaucracy, strong communist parties in parliament as the major threats. I'm hoping that someone with first hand experience could say more about this...
They should note that it was in the Times, not just the online edition. Some stories do only make the online edition, this one was published. It makes a difference, and should be noted. But hey, it's /., so we should just be happy its not a dupe, eh?
Since when has this country used intellectual elite as a pejorative term?
Yes roads will shape the dynamics of communities, they will change, remove and add culture, but the greater of the whole will benefit for it. It's called progress, things change, get over it. It's good to see the road actually being built there, perhaps someday places like Africa will also see this.
Let's face it, the hiway has done more to benefit the economies of the west than any other invention of the twenieth century. The east and other parts of the world want that same benefit, and there is no reason they should not be able to have it.
Ok, ready for the anti-car nuts to flame me for not wanting everyone to live in a village or highly condensed metro area where people walk everywhere.
Americans aren't the only ones with karma around here, you know...
If you do ever get the chance to see this documentary, do!
e s/monsoon-railway.shtmle s/photogallery/indian_rail1.shtml
It's called Monsoon Railway and documents how the staff at one station do their best to make the best out of a imposibly overcrowded and out-dated system through one seasons. It's incredibly uplifting. The people work through the night to keep it going. They have hospital trains manned with volunteers to send out in the event of any accident. There's one guy has only the smallest crummiest room himself to live in, but he feels so priveleged that he makes a shelter with his hands for the Indian railway children.
Seriously, if you think there's no hope, no ove, no humanity in this world, watch it. If you feel the third world is corrupt, hopeless not somewhere you can connect with, you're wrong. It made me want to travel, just to meet those people who commit such acts of kindness as if there was no other choice.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/featur
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/featur
Does this mean that a respectable life in India will be consider something that includes minimum three cars per household and every trip over 20 meters travelled by car?
--> wages increase, population growth halts due technically crummy sex-in-the-car culture, national health goes into overweigth problems, government starts to spend money on ridiculous military budgets to conquer oil resources for nation's cars
--> international competitivity comes down and hard
Familiar?
(--> outsourcing from US to India becomes outsourcing from US to China/Malaysia/whatever?)
Many of Americas highways were built BEFORE WWII. The interstates may have been a defense related project but the Turnpikes werent. Commerce is a far bigger motivating factor than war. War is often just the
excuse to get the road built then the military abandons it.
And you are wrong about Hitler, the Autobahn projects were actually started (1926) BEFORE hitler came to power and Hitler didnt think of them he had really nothing to do with their conception. The first autobahn was started in 1929 and was completed in 1932 BEFORE hitler came to power. Oddly enough the war actually STOPPED contruction of the autobahn.
But the temple and tree thwart even greater speed, and a passing contractor says they soon will be removed.
Kali, Hindu goddess of destruction, thinks otherwise.
Just a bit Ironic, eh?
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
We all know what highways do to the landscape: they route around old centers, create new growth and new powers on their edges and speed up commerce.
You are not even from India, and you are sifting the anti slash DB for high karma posts to copy and pasting them. Your comment can also be found here.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
I hope inventories of highway service points are not limited to curry. And keep elephants off the road!
the article mentions aryan invasion as one of the significant events in India's history.... wasnt that theory debunked as fantasies of colonial occupiers? really, one would think that NYT would do a much better job of researching before publishing....
You sir, are an idiot.
Use some common sense and critical thinking before pointing to your favored boogeyman of the week.
'nuff said.
But India's highway system also allows it to have an HIV rate comparable to south africa. Married truckers, truck stop hoes, and long routes have lead to an epidemic spread of the virus. Go figure. I'm glad condoms are $1 in the US, where a dollar doesn't matter.
.cig - what you do after winning a good flame war
I am a big believer in India, rather than China being the country to watch for growth and development. A great deal of this surrounds India's legal system, which closely follows the English common-law system, with a great respect for precedent and contract law. Take a look at the econmic success of both the U.K. and the United States, and you can clearly see the benefits of this system.
..modern electronics is more crap throw away quality than not, necessitating a lot of customer service calls. When Americans call the handy 800#, they honestly can't understand what is going on in the conversation most of the time, leading to double frustration, a broken gadget and then no way to effectively communicate. And it doesn't help that the tech support guy calls himself "Mike" either, it's just an insult to the customer because he or she knows his name is most likely not "Mike". They are frustrated because A-nothing gets fixed, B-they get insulted right off the bat, and C-they know that this used to be a US job. All of the above and more. This has created contention unfortunately.
The US right now almost every day in the biz headlines is "more layoffs". I mean big layoffs, significant, large, important. it's *spooky* what is going on to those paying attention. The average person here is starting to get more than a bit concerned over the future. They see blue collar jobs going to china, white collar to india, and service jobs here going to illegal immigrants. Uhh-what's left exactly?
It's not personal, so don't take it personal, just there is no way to get those US bosses and politicians (who aren't sweating the mortgage payment and healthcare and whatnot) to understand that this "globalism" bill of goods they foisted on us isn't working out like they thought. Since they really started pushing it,the past 20 years or so, we've gone from the planets largest creditor nation to largest debtor nation. The middle class is shrinking fast and is exisiting on credit cards and refinancing the mortgage. This is not a good idea. Not-at-all.
No one has anything against other folks in other lands having jobs,NONE, that isn't the issue at all, the main issue is transferring existing jobs, when they should just be creating new jobs in places like where you are at. It really doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both if the globalist boss class wasn't such greed-jerk total lamers..and I bet it's the same in India as well.
A little offtopic, but does anyone remember that homemade film released in the early days of DivX ;) where there was some guy driving on a highway with no trafic only to be landed on by a plane ? The highway was cleared out because the Boeing had to make an emergency landing... The name of the film was something like "highway 411" or something like this. I can't finding back even with the omniscient google :(
FTFA: "The real start came in 1991, when India began dismantling its state-run economy and opening its markets to foreign imports and investment."
So, what you're saying is that when India ditched Socialism and hopped on the Capitalist highway, then their economy really picked up speed? Fancy that. Next you'll be telling me that China abandoned Communism and became one of the world's fastest growing economies. Of course, adopt a bloated welfare/medical system, and there goes growth.
What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
Thats what i thought it said as it HAS been released here...m l
http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20051203/index.ht
The intensity of the issues mentioned here is less in South India. If you encounter 10 cows driving 150 kilometers in North India, you would only encounter 1 cow driving that far in South India.
Does anyone -- perhaps an Indian -- know why India is building roads, and not rail?
If they built rail, they could transport more goods and people at a lower cost -- but with greater latency and planning required.
Because India is a poor country, don't they need more bang for their transportation buck, and not necessarily more convenience? Are they at least going to make the people who use the roads responsible for paying for them -- e.g. the cars and (especially) trucks that wear them out?
Why would they want to commit to a gas-based transportaiton system when, if they built trains, they could generate electricity and use that to power most of their transportation?
This looks like pretty bad public policy.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_
It was called "405: The Movie".
http://www.405themovie.com/
whoever modded me down is a solid gold pussy
Indiana, thats how I first read it.
I think its more unlikely the way I saw it first.
I'm an american who has been to India. One of the scariest things I have ever done was take an eight hour bus ride in India from Varrinessia to The Border of Nepal. The rule for driving in India goes like this, smaller vehicles cower to the side of the road when something bigger is coming. Any two lane road connecting towns in India has tons of people walking on it, bicycles, three wheel bicycle taxis, donkey carts, stray cows, motorcycles, taxis, private cars, dumptrucks and buses all in the space of two lanes. Since these modes of transportation have different speeds you can imagine that the faster vehicles are often on the wrong side of the road to pass the donkey carts, pedestrians, cows, bicycles, etc. Once it becomes dark then it really gets dangerous. We couldn't see more than 75 feet infront of the bus because of all the people who burn cow dung for fuel. The buses lights would hit the smoke on the road and almost completely obstruct your view. Our bus driver was a maniac, but I can almost see how you would have to be to get anywhere on those roads.
lame dude... lame
what you just did is similar to whatr is talked about in the essayHow News is Made.
China has had one of or the highest growth rate in the world for more than half a century, since the end of WWII, basically, and it hasn't all been since Deng (as much as capitalism-solves-all-problems fantasists would like to believe). People who think that Capitalism has turned China around are seeing what they want to see. The leadership in China has allowed capitalism, to a certain degree, but not because there was no economic growth at all beforehand.
Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
When will the software dished to them be something clean enough the people who hired them can understand it well enough to be able to make mods & enhancements for subsequent versions?
It's been documented they aren't able to deal with their own code and have to rewrite it for v2.0.
This is not a good sign of companies having saved money.
There isn't a shortage of IT people. there's a shortage of good IT people. And bad coders can write bad code faster than good coders can write good code or fix the bad code, yet productivity numbers favor the goober who writes it in a fraction of time but it's substandard. (if engineers or people it the medical industry conducted themselves with the same quality, society would have disappeared a couple of centuries ago.
Finally, we are outsourcing our traffic instead of just jobs.
Table-ized A.I.
To all the folks who replied to my question: thanks for the info!
I had no idea that roads were essentially non-existent, and that India has a pretty good (and heavily subsidized) passenger rail system. If you really have no highways whatsoever, there probably is a huge relative advantage to having some, as opposed to having yet more rail.
Knowing how bad cars in the US are, I'm inclined to think -- well, could you maybe build more rail (more lines), just for freight -- and perhaps some express trains, for those folks with more money (and less time)?
But that's probably dumber than building a few freeways -- and I'm showing my anti-car biases.
As fuel prices rise in the US, there are a number of communities that will likely be depopulated -- the folks living there now commute to population centers for work, and those commutes will probably become too expensive in the future.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_
If you hate "Funny" posts so much, why not set your preferences to give all "Funny" posts an extra -6 modifier?
even a cheapo like me would pay to subscribe to NYT-full version.
The roads will facilitate faster car travel (130kph) than train travel (80kph), hopefully leading to faster trains. 220 miles in the US takes 3-4hrs by drive, The same distance takes 8-12 hrs (express train/other) by train in India. With this road it'll take maybe 4-6hrs? HUGE improvement over the trains. Some Japanese company tried to lease the railroads and offered to run their own trains on it, but the Indian government wouldn't let them. There will need to be faster trains if the true effects of this roads are to be realized, and for what you said in your first post to not be true. Enough indians have car now, although gasoline is expensive. Enough road building, make the trains faster now. Why not connect Delhi to Chennai and Bombay to Calcutta? it could be the golden cross then, instead of the golden quadrilateral.
Something that the article missed was that 2 years ago, an IIT engineer was gunned down in the state of Bihar because he blew the whistle on some of his seniors who were awarding contracts for the highway construction illegally. The most shocking part was that his letter to the ministry, which was marked highly confidential, was subject to the usual beaurocratic chain in the ministry, which led to the blowing of his cover and his death. The culprits have still not been brought to the book. However, this started a movement which is driving the creation of a whistleblower protection act in the Indian parliament.
More information about Satyendra Dubey is at the website of the S.K.Dubey foundation against corruption.
-A
"- What's so unpleasant about being drunk?"
"- You ask a glass of water."[from h2g2]
Just think about it - with all those highways going somewhere, they need a place like Las Vegas so people can gamble ...er, invest their salary.
Use a train for hauling coal, gravel, sand, logs, ore, scrap metal, liquified ammonia, sulferic acid, plastic resin pellets, pesticide, clay, and so on. Europeans typically use the roads (I'd say trucks, but that word means train cars over there!) for this.
:-( The seats get sticky too. Eeeeew. Not that Europeans mind I guess, and nothing wrong with that eh?
Use cars for people. Oddly, the Europeans use trains for this.
Trains that carry people always end up smelling like the people who ride them.
He had three daughters living there, one a computer engineer, the other two married to computer engineers. Most of his engineers - almost all, like him, from the southern state of Andhra Pradesh - had relatives in America, too.
No wonder that Andhraites (who speak the language TELUGU, popularly known as 'Italian of the East') form majority of the software professionals in the US. From Google's corporate page - 'Dozens of languages are spoken by Google staffers, from Turkish to Telugu.'. Telugus also form majority of the Indian employees in Microsoft. Not surprisingly, Hyderabad, not Bangalore, is getting the new US Visa Consulate as more than half of the visa applications from South India are from that state.
As expected, almost every major American city now has a Telugu organization
http://www.telugutanam.com/italianofeast, and Tollywood, one of India's largest film industries has found a profitable overseas market in the US.
http://www.telugucinema.com/c/cat_index_24.shtml
Aryan Invation as a theory has been debunked a long time back
Fanatical "Hindutva" theories trying to "prove" that aryans have been in India forever
Aryan Migration Theory
karma : former act as leading to inevitable results
The first gulf war was the tipping point. The Forex reserves ran so low (just weeks worth) that reforms were inevitable. Manmohan Singh the current PM was the first to introduce reforms at that stage ... which has been "progressing" in fits and bursts.
There was a small attempt at reforms earlier by Rajiv Gandhi (which for eg. opened Indian industry to newer motor bikes) but that came to a standstill once he got embroiled in Bofors kickback controversy.
karma : former act as leading to inevitable results
They are much more cautious about the economic development in India. They mention corruption, bureaucracy, strong communist parties in parliament as the major threats.
1. Do not believe everything The Economist prints.
2. Corruption is an issue in most developing countries.
3. Bureaucracy is as good or bad as any other country.
Communist parties frequently act as the checks-&-balances in the Indian political process - opposition to the extreme right political parties, opposition to the selling of profit making private sector enterprises (IMHO needless), radical redrawing of Indian labor laws and the list goes on.
I am not a sympathizer of Indian communist parties. They support many idiotic ideas and sometimes are as virulent as the extreme right. But the two states of post-independence India with the highest literacy and social progress - Kerala and West Bengal had communist parties running the state governments for a long time.
After 20 years I visited Calcutta (capital of West Bengal and now known as Kolkata)- the city is the exact opposite of Shanghai.
Tat Tvam Asi
You have no idea what corruption is if you think the U.S. is corrupt. In general, the U.S. is the least corrupt large country ever seen.
I have a friend who came from India, and when he got here I asked him the question I ask all new arrivals to the U.S. -- "What surprised you most about the U.S. when you got here?" His answer was, "The honesty and integrity of your government."
He offered this story:
I went to the Social Security office on my second day here. I
got in line, and right behind me walked in a businessman in
a fine suit. I automatically got out of his way to let him
go to the front of the line, but he said "No, of course not.
You were here first."
Then I started looking at the line in front of me. There were
about five people, and first in line there was an obvious wino.
When he got to the window, he had trouble stating his need and
the clerk patiently helped him fill out his form.
I got my documents in 15 minutes with no difficulty at
all, and I was treated kindly and respectfully.
I was thunderstruck. In India, to get official documents like
this without a month or more of wait, you must pay off the
local officials. The size of the baksheesh determines how much
priority you will get -- if you don't pay enough right away,
you will be sent away with another form to fill out.
Eventually, you will get your documents. A rich businessman
goes to the front of the line, pays his greater amount of
baksheesh, and gets the papers immediately with no question.
Later I found out that it would be foolish to even offer
baksheesh here. You might get worse service because you
had attempted to bribe the official, or even potentially
arrested for attempted bribery.
This attitude pervades your people and gives them a
confidence and power most of our people cannot have.
I will not make the blanket statement that there is no wrongdoing in
our government, but our government is certainly not corrupt in the
sense that almost all but a few Western European and Nort American
governments are corrupt. Corruption pervades, wrongdoing is isolated.
The U.S. is not corrupt.
In Texas, when one is stopped for speeding, they have the option to take a defensive driving course to get out of the ticket. (This is a state law). Upon completion of the course, the ticket will be dismissed. However, one still has to pay "court fees" even though there is no court appearance.
To a typical scenario is as follows:
1) J. Doe gets stopped in a small town for going 65 in a 55.
2) J. Doe sends check/money order of ~$100 to small town court.
3) J. Doe takes defensive driving course...
4) Ticket dismissed.
Note: The sending of the $100 technically is supposed to "delay" court proceedings. Which means means at no point was the citation ever upheld.
So basically J. Doe gets to pay court fees to "prove" he his innocent... Since when does the victor pay court fees in criminal trials??????????????????
This is really a bribe (thinly disguised), and it is manadated by law!
Yes, I know India has far more serious corruption problems, and is getting better. But where is the US going?
The article doesn't do a very good job, including in the multimedia section, of conveying the sheer scale of this project.
..not some peculiar issues about Nazi's or disease.
It also contains some rather dubious facts. Aryan invasion? It also leaves some rather large gaps in history. It would be like describing Italy as Roman Empire, Enlightenment, and Mussolini. Understanding India is of far greater importance today than it was. Peculiar digressions on Hitler or HIV are offtopic and should be modded so.
Essentially the story has very little on the real impact of the road from those who matter: The Road users, the builders and those who are going to maintain it. Is this project cost effective? You can't answer that by reading the article. You also cannot get any idea of what the economic impact of this prodigious project would be. That's what matters
In large cities in India (Calcutta, Bombay), trains carry several MILLION people to and from the cities EACH DAY.
Must be nice, to not worry about "parking"... To not worry about paying for fuel (approx USD ~$30/gallon, relatively speaking). While India's trains are aged and show their use, they are a vital mode of transportation. Perhaps the only improvement left desired would be larger/more streamlined entry/exit ways....
Or does the parent feel that is easier to use less efficient, less sustainable modes of transportation?
Recently, I traveled to Berkeley via flying into San Francisco... I took the BART train (Bay-Area Rapid Transit) from SF to Berkeley, and walked (1 mi) from the BART station in Berkeley to my hotel. The train was extremely efficient and quick. No rental car. No taxis. No car insurance, no gas.
I'll glady take dirty seats on a train over a worldwide energy crisis and international war. But that's just me...
and BTW, are the seats in YOUR CAR really all that clean? When was the last time you applied a disinfectant?
I do realize I grew up in the western hemosphere, and am accustomed to a world without corruption. Or so it seems. I agree that the individual government worker in the US is, on the average, is less likely to be corrupt than in India.
At the same time, if you look beyond the individual worker, and the select few that make and shape policy, it is very possible to argue that the US is more corrupt than India. If you look at the influences of 3rd parties on government decissions in the US, it becomes quickly apparant how the government may not be corrupt in its foundations, but in its design outright.
In the end, ask this question: Is this new policy/law in the interest of the people, or is it in the interest of a particular party? If the latter, you would have to ask if that party had any influence over the decision, but this is so common place today, you may, as sad as it is, skip this step in most cases, as it is usually a given.
To make the whole story short: The west has not found a way to stop corruption, but a way to integrate it into its government. It is now "acceptable" and lowers the need to have the "illegal" form of corruption, hence creating the appearance of a non-corrupt government.
To get back to your point, it is valid, but only looks at part of the problem. If you look at the whole picture, you will see what I've outlined above, and realize how the west isn't that much better than everyone else, as it likes to beliefe.
And to end: Why is it that it happens more often every day, that the truth has to sound so critical? Are we going down the wrong road?
who | grep -i blond | date cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger; mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount; sleep
Also, there are extensive plans to build a Golden Quadrilateral of *railroads*, paralleling the roads. These would be primarily used for freight, between the big cities, and from the ports inland. The resulting reduction in utilization on the regular railroads would allow for more and faster passenger trains.
:-D.
Right now the fastest trains typically cover about 100kmph average. Madras-Bangalore (360km) takes about 4hrs. If they can cut it to about 2 or 2:30, It'll make my weekend trips so much better
Of course, it's hard to correctly estimate the transport needs of a billion people, so anything that makes movement easier is probably a good idea B-).
All bow to his Noodliness!! His Noodle Appendage has touched me!
At the same time, if you look beyond the individual worker, and the select few that make and shape policy, it is very possible to argue that the US is more corrupt than India. If you look at the influences of 3rd parties on government decissions in the US, it becomes quickly apparant how the government may not be corrupt in its foundations, but in its design outright.
How so? Wasn't the checks and balances system designed to give the government a measure of resistance to influence from third parties? Indeed, if you compare the American political system to some of the others, you'll find that there is less absolute corruption than in even Western European countries.
I'm not suggesting that the American system is perfect, or that it applies to all regions. I'm simply stating that the American government has less outright corruption than most places in the world.
We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
My point in short: The US can claim to have less corruption than most other contries, because they redefined the term. By "legalizing" corruption by incorporating a "controlled outlet" there is not as much need for "illegal" corruption.
So if you use the same defintion of corruption and compre US to India, then you will most definately arrive at the conclusions that you have made. If you compare $ spent on influencing government decisions (or to be more fair, % of GDP), then I'm almost certain that the US by far outranks most other countries in the world.
Again, its all a matter of perspective, and its always possible to define the terms in such way that they fit you best. Corruption is a good example of that. And as you said, "outright corruption." Let me ask, what about the non so outright corrution? To me, that still counts, even so its in a different form than we are used to from the past.
I think I may go along with an argument that would claim that this "legalized" corruption is better than the "illegal" version. I'm not sure if I'm willing to go along with that quite yet, and think I want to withold judgement on that idea for a while longer.
who | grep -i blond | date cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger; mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount; sleep
The US standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and English expatriates built the US Railroads. Why did the English build them like that?
Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used. Why did "they" use that gauge then?
Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Why did the wagons have that particular odd wheel spacing?
Well, if they tried to use any other spacing, the wagon wheels would break on some of the old, long distance roads in England, because that's the spacing of the wheel ruts. So who built those old rutted roads?
Imperial Rome built the first long distance roads in Europe (and England)for their legions. The roads have been used ever since. And the ruts in the roads? Roman war chariots formed the initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagon wheels. Since the chariots were made for Imperial Rome, they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing. The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches is derived from the original specifications for an Imperial Roman war chariot. And bureaucracies live forever.
So the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Imperial Roman army chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses.
Now the twist to the story.
When you see a Space Shuttle sitting on its launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at their factory at Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs would have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line from the factory happens to run through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than the railroad track, and the railroad track, as you now know, is about as wide as two horses' behinds.
So, a major Space Shuttle design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined over two thousand years ago by the width of a horse's ass; (or more correctly, to enable two horses's asses to work together!)
And you thought being a HORSE'S ASS wasn't important!
The article is interesting because it is one of the rare articles from the western press that tries to look at India in a positive light. However the article is just another article on a developing nation from a western journalist and is full of typical western arrogance. The article is probably a baby step forward from potraying India as a land of Maharaja's and snake charmers.
The article is unnecessary critical of hinduism the majority religion. Something typical of western media. Most of the western socities have never been at thre receiving end of exploitative imperialism and colonialism. That is why the author all full of praise for empires and imperialism, completely ignoring the reality that the empires bought complete misery and economic ruin for the suffering nations.
Probably the article will cut well with the outsourcing hating type slashdot reades who will find a reason or two more to crticise and hate India and Indians. Incidently a news that did not made slashdot (which at one point I mistakenly perceived as a forum of educated nerds), was the racial torment and hatred dished out to an American-Indian lady in a software firm in USA.
Let me ask, what about the non so outright corrution?
First, "non-outright corruption is difficult to measure, seeing as how, by definition, its magnitude is hidden.
Second, the fact that the outright corruption here has a measure of stigma attached to it means that the US is resisting corruption better than most other areas of the world. Minor corruption is endemic everywhere, but there is still a sense of outrage at it here in the USA, while, in many other places (esp. India and other third-world countries) corruption is simply accepted as a fact of life that must dealt with. It is this stigma attached to corruption, coupled with the fact that the USA has good government as one of its tacit goals that separates the USA from most other areas.
Third, legalizing corruption exposes it to the public eye, and, through that process, takes away a measure of its virulence. If the public can see who is giving the politicians their vital contributions, we can at least try to account for all of the various interests that may be involved whenever that politician makes a statement. This is in contrast to other countries, where corruption is kept off the books, and one has no idea what interests are involved in any political decision.
We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
The correct name is Manmohan Singh who was the finance minister at the time when reforms were kicked off and is currently the prime minister of India.
Here's the next NYT article following that Mile by Mile article from the other day: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/05/international/as ia/05highway.html
Here's the accompanying audio slideshow:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtml/2005/12/05/i nternational/20051205_HIGHWAY_FEATURE.html
It's an openly made, legally authorized payment, to the government, not to an individual. Your statement makes me think you have no idea what real bribery is. When a country is infected with bribery, nothing works well. Every civil servant is out for himself.
and some of my uncles had contracts in these highway projects. And I can tell you how this 'Road bizness' goes on in India.
First, lets start with my small town in western India (couple hundred miles from Mumbai). Every year they build new roads in the town but not 'new ones' instead they 'rebuild' the roads over same ones.. why ? coz every year the road breaks down (with lot of pot holes and gravel comes out), mostly due to heavy monsoon.. They dont use good quality asphalt and mix lot of gravel.. Ahh and one more reason why the roads break apart is that they start building new roads right around MAY-JUNE when the monsoon season starts in India and hence the road doesnt get chance to 'strengthen' all over my stay there (1982-2003) this happened every year and I m sure its a common phenomena all over the country.
Secondly, these construction companies (that includes my uncles & co.) who are subcontracted to build roads use all sort of means to bribe everyone right from the small clerk to big politicians (yes you have to feed'em all) to get the 'tender'. Once they get the 'tender'/contract.. they just wait.. wait.. like a frog... until monsoon sets in.. thats when they start building roads.. so its breaks faster.. and they can get another contract..
Thirdly, you would not believe but on all these highways.. they literally 'cut-off' margins on both side of roads to 'save' money.. and when you have to make such long highways we are talking about savings in millions.. No govt official ever goes to do any inspection..
Fourthly and most importantly - TOLLS ! what the NYT article doesnt talk about is that most of these highways are built in segments with each segment given to some construction company. What happens is that these companies show large costs and the govt says fuck that we cannot pay that much amount..so Company says.. let us built TOLL booth.. and we will recover rest of the money in 1 or 2 years.. and guess what, they go on collecting tolls for years.. w/o any road maintenance n all..
However, people in India are really happy with highways without potholes coz they can finally run their Japanese and American cars above 100Kmph since we basiclly dont have any COPs that comes after you to give tickets.. (isnt that cool !, the probability of you hitting a cow or dog or sheep (which I did once) and/or dying is higher than COP catching you for speeding)
Last winter I had been to India and we drove thru famous 'bombay-pune' highway which every 'Mumbaikar' would boast about since its modelled after Amercian standards and all fenced so no dog or cat or sheep can get in.. but the problem with people driving in India is that they are not used to looking at roads signs (we are not necessariy required to give a road test.. e.g. one day I was watching TV and my dad is like.. here son..your new licence..I had been driving since I was 14 :) okay along the bombay-pune highway my friend who was driving missed the exits twice and we had to travel like 20kms to get back.. oh well..sometimes these advances come with their own price.
A. Lack of COMPASSION
Check this http://blogs.emelton.com/awholeyear/2004/12/lack_
B. SARCASM
Check this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indian_
C. HYPOCRISY
Check this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/count
The new rail link will not only speed up China's environmentally disastrous exploitation of Tibet's national resources but also hasten the systematically executed demographic disaster which is intended to turn Tibetans into a disenfrancised and sinociziced minority in their own country, not unlike Mongolians after the chinese communists took over "Inner Mongolia" and extended China's railway network there.
China is already using occupied Tibet, historically a neutral buffer state between India and China, as a military and nuclear missile base overlooking South Asia. Part of the Indian planners' realization of the need for an improved road network to complement the existing railways has undoubtably been China's communist-era expansionism towards India (including China's still unresolved invasion of north Indian territories soon after Tibet had been occupied), and Chinese military's ability to easily disable India's railway network with a sneak missile attack from their bases in Tibet.
In ideal world the democratic nations would have a common policy of supporting the economic development of democratic developing countries like India while refusing to prop up expansionist dictatorships like China through trade and investment.
Unfortunately for democratic principles, the special interest groups behind the leaders of the currently rich democratic nations are finding it more lucrative to do just the opposite.
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
To make the whole story short: The west has not found a way to stop corruption, but a way to integrate it into its government. It is now "acceptable" and lowers the need to have the "illegal" form of corruption, hence creating the appearance of a non-corrupt government.
If you think the Indian government is not subjet to business influence,
then you are *really* off.
No, I think you are just of the usual "it's all a business conspiracy"
bent caused by overconsumption of television.
You have demonized the U.S. in your mind. Business influence exists, as
does influence by powerful lobbies like the NRA and Sierra Club. But
there are most definite limits, as the intense media scrutiny in the
U.S. means that there is risk to *any* type of improper actions, no
matter who does them.
About your question regarding the railways - India has, I think, the second largest railway network in the world. This is good, ofcourse, but rails cannot completely obviate the need for roads.
Actually there are a lot of roads in India - good, bad and ugly. But there aren't enough big highways. Most cities in India are connected by 2 or 4 lane highways. What this new project (called the Golden Quadrilateral project) does is create highways which are wider and meant for much higher speeds connecting the big cities. Many of the new highways coming up are 6 lanes.
Just so you know - India has also been developing its railways; especially sub-urban and urban railways. For instance, Delhi has one of the newest/most advanced tube railway systems now. Calcutta has already had such a system for many years now. Other cities are following suit - Chennai is now considering such a tube railway system as well. Chennai already has on-ground and overhead (skytrain) urban train systems, so this new tube railway being considered will be in addition to the existing systems. These projects are primarily being developed to deal with the problem of congestion in the big Indian cities.
Idiot moderators - he meant it as a joke. He's quoting the last line of "Back to the Future" (get it? India's Road "to the Future"? Actually pretty clever, and not the least bit insulting, when the gist of the article involves the *future* of India). If you don't understand it, at least don't moderate it.
Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
For the last few years that i have been reading NYT i have found it to be a very biased newspaper. Lot of news they publish is motivated more by the money that exchanges hands, than by the real happenings behind it. Most of the stories they publish about India always carry a second motivation besides the providing content. It is a well known fact that US gets along with Pakistan than with India, since out of India and Pakistan, India has always been self-reliant with a stable economy and government from the standards of a developing country. Pakistan never really changed after the independence from British Rule and most of the country is still ruled according to feudal laws. But that has been to the advantage of US, since Pakistan could never produce more than what it needed. So it turned to US for help in its early times. US recognized that Pakistand can be the pet whom you can abuse or love as the situation demands. As it turns out, that never really did happen. Although the government of Pakistan is pro US 'cause of all the money they get from US, but people of Pakistan are dead-set against US. Anyway the point is that anytime there is a news article about India in NYT they will try to say few good things about India which will be embedded in lot of BS about how poor indian people are, how deprieved Indian people are.....I dont want to say India is a rich country, but atleast not as poor as depicted by NYT. Why dont they talk about Pakistan? What dont they write negative about Pakistan? Even when NYT publishes reports about terrorism in Kashmir, India, they mention that Indian Army is commiting atrocities in Kashmir and it calls the terrorists as martyrs. That is one of the most insane things you can hear or read if you are from that area. I dont want to say that Indian Army never killed an innocent, but that is what happens in war. Kashmir was a part of India, which Pakistan has always tried to capture. First Pakistan tried to get the state of Punjab in India, which they were not successfull. Then Pakistan changed plans and started terrorist activities in Kashmir and now thanks to newspapers like NYT whole world thinks that Pakistan has a legitimate right on Kashmir. Also since India wants to be part of UN secutiry council, US wants to make sure that they effectively spread the word that India is not prepared for it and they use NYT as an effective tool. Overall I think service of a newspaper is to provide authentic and genuine content, and not get movtivated by the bucks getting passed around.
Give me a break here. The media is by far the worst problem in the US. They do such a lousy job at scrutinzing the government and corporations when compared to Europe, that it hurts. Literally, I spent hours a day reading news, and even so I live in the US, I have to go to Europe to get the news that count.
who | grep -i blond | date cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger; mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount; sleep
Give me a break here.
Why? You aren't giving anyone else one. You apparently think "US bad, everyone
else good".
The media is by far the worst problem in the US. They do such a lousy job at scrutinzing the government and corporations when compared to Europe, that it hurts.
Why, because they won't broadcast fake atrocity reports as in the "Jenin
Massacre"? Because it won't point fingers at the US and Israel while
totally ignoring the failings of the imploding economies and societies
of Arab and Muslim culture which produced the terrorists bedevilling the
world in dozens of conflicts?
I bet you can't point out a two non-opinion facts that you found in
European news that you couldn't find in the US news if you read it. You
are looking for spin, not facts.
Literally, I spent hours a day reading news, and even so I live in the US, I have to go to Europe to get the news that count.
Therein lies your problem. If you spend the hours reading the news
you aren't gaining the type of life experience that you need to think
for yourself.
And it matters what news you read -- obviously you are looking for news
that is always critical and never complimentary of the U.S. You can
certainly find that in Europe, so I guess that is where you belong.