If you're not playing games the open source nv drivers will work fine for you [hint: I use it on my workstation].
But it isn't just the drivers that hold intel graphics back. It's the fact that GPUs from ATI and NV are huge and overdesigned for the task. Intel graphics chips are much smaller [re: fewer pipelines, non-dedicated memory, etc].
The only way Intel could win is if they had more transistor real estate and a dedicated memory bus for the GPU.
Back in the DOS days I was using a compiler called Micro-C which was a "single pass" compiler as well and on a 33Mhz 486 I was compiling 10K/lines a second. The difference between Micro-C and GCC [for instance] is that GCC performs a hell of a lot more optimization passes.
Borland C is neither a good C compiler [in terms of speed and standards compliance] or efficiency of code generated. It's a bad example to use.
If you really want a contest you should do this
1. Take equivalent algorithms [storage/size/speed] 2. Take Delphi and GCC 4.1.1 and build the programs 3. Measure the output size and time their executions.
No customer cares if your program was built in 1s versus 10s. They only care if the program fits in their platform, does what they want and does it fast. Besides, with proper refactoring you can mitigate build times to a moot point.
For instance, when I work on my projects I often build the entire tree once, then work on the file I want [I have one function per file so it's easy to isolate]. Then when I want to test it, I take a whopping 5s or so to build and link the test program. I certainly spend more than 5s auditing the code and working with the debugger so it's not a bottleneck in the process.
I'd say GCC does far more optimizations than FPK or Delphi.
Honestly, how much time do you spend rebuilding your entire application? Chances are if you have to rebuild a million lines of code when you fix a typo in some function, then you need to really think about factoring your code properly. I can see if we were talking about 1000 loc/min vs. 1000 loc/sec or whatever. But if Delphi's only feature is that the [from the customers point of view] the SINGLE build is fast but the code generated sucks... then you're stuck.
Not this is a rag on Delphi. It has features other than the supposed "fast compile time". This isn't 1983 anymore. "slow" compilers typically spend that time on OPTIMIZING THE CODE. Back in the early 80s most commercial compilers performed the same limited subset of optimizations. Basic CSE, no unrolling/inlining, etc... GCC performs a lot of passes on the code to look for ways to optimize the code it produces. I think you should take some non-trivial function, pass it to GCC with "-O3" and then look at the assembly code it produces. You'll be amazed at the complexity of the output.
Dude, I'm not arguing perfect politics here or nothing.
I'm refuting the notion that just because you didn't physically hand someone money that it's free. Imagine if your government and schools used Linux or BSD instead of Windows? Site licenses for Windows are not cheap. You may think, but tom we are a big school, lots of discounts. BUZZ WRONG. Even IBM has to pay site license fees based on an estimated employee headcount and what not.
It would be freeish if you were handed a Ubuntu or Fedora or Knoppix or Gentoo CD.
Besides, universities shouldn't be picky about the OS you use. You can learn comp.sci on anything [and my college proved that, O2, 486, P3/P4, 68K, etc, heyo!]. If you're idea of comp.sci is learning Win32 GUIs and what not...um you're mistaken (unless you're taking an UI class, but it should cover more than just one GUI class as well as cover a bit of psychology).
If you want to go to school to learn how to mash out monkey programs go to a 2 yr college. That's what they're there for. Nothing wrong with being a "coder". But if you want to consider yourself a student of comp.sci you better learn quick that VB.net scripting is not comp.sci.
Most of those are over TCP because they use HTTP which is defined as using TCP in general.
Video streaming [and audio] is a task better left to UDP as it avoids all of the retransmissions and other crap. Unless you need a copy of the media, UDP is the proper way to go since lost packets are tolerable.
Yes, but that's not how the games work in practice. Suppose we have
Machine A [you]: Shoot gun Machine B [me]: Shoot and kill you
And both happen at the same time. What will happen?
Video games that host many clients use a post/commit process for actions. You posted that you shot but because the games master state (and the state others have) doesn't agree (you're dead afterall) the action is not commited to the game state. This is how, for instance, you can seemingly "duck" but still get plucked off [happens to me all the time]. In the games master state your "duck" action has not been comitted yet. even though in your copy of the game you have. Therefore, when someone shoots you, as far as others are aware you're not ducking yet.
But it isn't as if the client updates it's telemetry based on what it receives other than limiting your actions (e.g. hitting walls, dying, etc). So in reality you're dealing with two one-way channels [think dual-mono] of relatively independent data.
You're confusing a language with an implementation. Sure if you include 4M lines of Win32api headers it could be slower to build. But I have yet to see Delphi issue parallel builds.:-)
I can build my LibTomMath project [~9K lines of source] in 2.3 seconds on my 2P Opteron 285 setup.:-)
Ok, yeah great but that copy of Windows you got for $5 or whatever off the MSDN site is not "free". That is, unless you never plan on getting a job or owning property...
Then yes, I guess if you live with mommy for the rest of your days and never work, yes, that copy of Windows was free. Congrats, you fooled the system!
Borland optimizers were always at least 1 or 2 gens behind GCC and the like. Watcom was far superior back in the day in terms of scheduling (which mattered more back in the 586 days). Intel has a decent optimizing compiler but benchmarks like what you linked to are misleading. What is ICC performance on ARM processors? How about MIPS? How about SPARC? Alpha? 68K? etc... The GCC folk have more to worry about than just performance on Intel x86 processors.
Also as for "instant compilations" it's called a makefile. Build your objects, modify source, rebuild only the modified objects, etc. Nothing to see here, move along.
That said, Delphi has a decent RAD toolset. Never really got into the whole "platform specific" coding thing but if I had to write a win32 app it'd be a close toss up between VC++ and Delphi. I was a "Turbo Pascal Kid" back in the day (hey, someone should form a TPK group) teaching myself how to write software with TP5 and TP6.
TCP isn't avoided because it's slow but because it's totally useless for streaming applications (e.g. games). Missing packets is much more easy to deal with than halting waiting for missing packets.
Maybe that shows the founders don't know that much about networking?
They were at a security conference (don't ask, I didn't) and we went out for supper after one of the sessions.
The point is, not all dinners are formal meetings. I seriously doubt the CRA or DoD or the other half dozen groups I've gone out with for dinner or whatever were on official business. Hell, I work at AMD. Doesn't mean everyone I go out to dinner with is taking part in an official AMD sanctioned meeting. Means I work at AMD and I decided to buy dinner for a friend. Big deal.
My point was that while free eats with MSFT may be fun and exciting [*], until they actually make an OFFICIAL offer or deal it doesn't really matter.
Tom
[*] Personally I'd try and make them apologize for Windows first before we sat down to eat.
Mitnick is a shithead. He broke the law, then got screwed in prison, now he milks it all he can. Cuz he's the notorious kevin mitnick. Oooh lala. He exploits the fact that people are lazy and incompetent. Not exactly news.
That prick should go out and contribute something of meaning to society. I mean, other than his contempt for "the man."
I've been to dinner with people from Microsoft, Intel, AMD, Broadcom, Sandisk, the DoD, CRA (Canada), etc.
It's fucking dinner.
Wait till they offer him a grant, job or other swag to be impressed. If they gave him a grant to bash the shit out of Windows that'd be impressive. A $50 dinner on the strip is not (though free eats is good)
I dunno, leaving your passport somewhere isn't always the smartest thing either. For starters, if you are requested to show government ID, your american driver licenses is not legal ID in most cases. If you run afoul and need your embassy to bail your ass out you will need your passport as well, etc...
I've stayed in hotels in Dijon, Rennes, Saclay and Paris. Not once did they ask to see it for more than just the photo ID (I kept the passport). I've stayed in two different hotels in Dublin, same story, etc...
I'm the first to admit that WESTERN europe is not the same as the rest of europe. I imagine in Germany or Poland or some such the rules may be diff.
I've been at hotels in Ireland, France and England and never once gave them my passport. I might use it as ID e.g. to prove I'm me. But they don't keep it.
Most of the time they don't care. They just swipe your credit card and are glad to take your money....
And to think I clear 3900 USD/mo and that's not alot for me... hehehe (it's way more than enough, just seems you always find a way to spend your money).
Of course I live in Canada so the cost of living is a bit higher than $6/day. Without a cell/net/tv you could survive on about 900/mo (rent+food+clothes) but your life would suck balls.
One distro to rule them all....hehehe Mostly my confusion comes from the fact that for many business needs Gentoo flips the bill just fine. Yet people still pay for things like SLES or RHES.
I can take a gentoo boot CD and make a desktop, laptop, server, gaming box, whatever. Why I would pay for something like SLES where updates are annoying to get and always in binary form? If I wanted a pointy-clicky OS I'd get Knoppix/Ubuntu or god forbid a Windows license.
Making me remember the horrors of college... And the shit that was blackboard. It was always down for repairs and the online exams were trivial to cheat at.
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If you're not playing games the open source nv drivers will work fine for you [hint: I use it on my workstation].
But it isn't just the drivers that hold intel graphics back. It's the fact that GPUs from ATI and NV are huge and overdesigned for the task. Intel graphics chips are much smaller [re: fewer pipelines, non-dedicated memory, etc].
The only way Intel could win is if they had more transistor real estate and a dedicated memory bus for the GPU.
Tom
Back in the DOS days I was using a compiler called Micro-C which was a "single pass" compiler as well and on a 33Mhz 486 I was compiling 10K/lines a second. The difference between Micro-C and GCC [for instance] is that GCC performs a hell of a lot more optimization passes.
Borland C is neither a good C compiler [in terms of speed and standards compliance] or efficiency of code generated. It's a bad example to use.
If you really want a contest you should do this
1. Take equivalent algorithms [storage/size/speed]
2. Take Delphi and GCC 4.1.1 and build the programs
3. Measure the output size and time their executions.
No customer cares if your program was built in 1s versus 10s. They only care if the program fits in their platform, does what they want and does it fast. Besides, with proper refactoring you can mitigate build times to a moot point.
For instance, when I work on my projects I often build the entire tree once, then work on the file I want [I have one function per file so it's easy to isolate]. Then when I want to test it, I take a whopping 5s or so to build and link the test program. I certainly spend more than 5s auditing the code and working with the debugger so it's not a bottleneck in the process.
Tom
*cough* quality *cough*
... then you're stuck.
I'd say GCC does far more optimizations than FPK or Delphi.
Honestly, how much time do you spend rebuilding your entire application? Chances are if you have to rebuild a million lines of code when you fix a typo in some function, then you need to really think about factoring your code properly. I can see if we were talking about 1000 loc/min vs. 1000 loc/sec or whatever. But if Delphi's only feature is that the [from the customers point of view] the SINGLE build is fast but the code generated sucks
Not this is a rag on Delphi. It has features other than the supposed "fast compile time". This isn't 1983 anymore. "slow" compilers typically spend that time on OPTIMIZING THE CODE. Back in the early 80s most commercial compilers performed the same limited subset of optimizations. Basic CSE, no unrolling/inlining, etc... GCC performs a lot of passes on the code to look for ways to optimize the code it produces. I think you should take some non-trivial function, pass it to GCC with "-O3" and then look at the assembly code it produces. You'll be amazed at the complexity of the output.
Tom
Dude, I'm not arguing perfect politics here or nothing.
...um you're mistaken (unless you're taking an UI class, but it should cover more than just one GUI class as well as cover a bit of psychology).
I'm refuting the notion that just because you didn't physically hand someone money that it's free. Imagine if your government and schools used Linux or BSD instead of Windows? Site licenses for Windows are not cheap. You may think, but tom we are a big school, lots of discounts. BUZZ WRONG. Even IBM has to pay site license fees based on an estimated employee headcount and what not.
It would be freeish if you were handed a Ubuntu or Fedora or Knoppix or Gentoo CD.
Besides, universities shouldn't be picky about the OS you use. You can learn comp.sci on anything [and my college proved that, O2, 486, P3/P4, 68K, etc, heyo!]. If you're idea of comp.sci is learning Win32 GUIs and what not
If you want to go to school to learn how to mash out monkey programs go to a 2 yr college. That's what they're there for. Nothing wrong with being a "coder". But if you want to consider yourself a student of comp.sci you better learn quick that VB.net scripting is not comp.sci.
Tom
Maybe I dunno. Check google groups.
I still hate Callas though. That prick needs to get a hair cut and stop emulating Bruce Schneier.
Tom
Naggle would like to speak with you.
Tom
Most of those are over TCP because they use HTTP which is defined as using TCP in general.
Video streaming [and audio] is a task better left to UDP as it avoids all of the retransmissions and other crap. Unless you need a copy of the media, UDP is the proper way to go since lost packets are tolerable.
Tom
Yes, but that's not how the games work in practice. Suppose we have
Machine A [you]: Shoot gun
Machine B [me]: Shoot and kill you
And both happen at the same time. What will happen?
Video games that host many clients use a post/commit process for actions. You posted that you shot but because the games master state (and the state others have) doesn't agree (you're dead afterall) the action is not commited to the game state. This is how, for instance, you can seemingly "duck" but still get plucked off [happens to me all the time]. In the games master state your "duck" action has not been comitted yet. even though in your copy of the game you have. Therefore, when someone shoots you, as far as others are aware you're not ducking yet.
But it isn't as if the client updates it's telemetry based on what it receives other than limiting your actions (e.g. hitting walls, dying, etc). So in reality you're dealing with two one-way channels [think dual-mono] of relatively independent data.
Tom
Yes, but it's still just streaming. It isn't like you are downloading the data, working it, then uploading it.
You're sending your telemetry and you're receiving theirs.
Tom
You're confusing a language with an implementation. Sure if you include 4M lines of Win32api headers it could be slower to build. But I have yet to see Delphi issue parallel builds. :-)
:-)
I can build my LibTomMath project [~9K lines of source] in 2.3 seconds on my 2P Opteron 285 setup.
I'd say that's rather quick.
Tom
Ok, yeah great but that copy of Windows you got for $5 or whatever off the MSDN site is not "free". That is, unless you never plan on getting a job or owning property...
Then yes, I guess if you live with mommy for the rest of your days and never work, yes, that copy of Windows was free. Congrats, you fooled the system!
Tom
Borland optimizers were always at least 1 or 2 gens behind GCC and the like. Watcom was far superior back in the day in terms of scheduling (which mattered more back in the 586 days). Intel has a decent optimizing compiler but benchmarks like what you linked to are misleading. What is ICC performance on ARM processors? How about MIPS? How about SPARC? Alpha? 68K? etc... The GCC folk have more to worry about than just performance on Intel x86 processors.
Also as for "instant compilations" it's called a makefile. Build your objects, modify source, rebuild only the modified objects, etc. Nothing to see here, move along.
That said, Delphi has a decent RAD toolset. Never really got into the whole "platform specific" coding thing but if I had to write a win32 app it'd be a close toss up between VC++ and Delphi. I was a "Turbo Pascal Kid" back in the day (hey, someone should form a TPK group) teaching myself how to write software with TP5 and TP6.
Tom
TCP isn't avoided because it's slow but because it's totally useless for streaming applications (e.g. games). Missing packets is much more easy to deal with than halting waiting for missing packets.
Maybe that shows the founders don't know that much about networking?
Tom
Wonderful. Except you pay more sales and income tax.
:-) You pay for school one way or another.
Your education isn't free. And if that's your view of economics your education isn't really going too well
While I *agree* that state funded schooling is a requirement of any enlightened society, I would not consider it free.
Tom
It's not free, your school pays for their membership. Tuition spikes? NO WAI!?!?!
Tom
Yeah, selling your soul usually has some strings attached. :-)
Tom
They were at a security conference (don't ask, I didn't) and we went out for supper after one of the sessions.
The point is, not all dinners are formal meetings. I seriously doubt the CRA or DoD or the other half dozen groups I've gone out with for dinner or whatever were on official business. Hell, I work at AMD. Doesn't mean everyone I go out to dinner with is taking part in an official AMD sanctioned meeting. Means I work at AMD and I decided to buy dinner for a friend. Big deal.
My point was that while free eats with MSFT may be fun and exciting [*], until they actually make an OFFICIAL offer or deal it doesn't really matter.
Tom
[*] Personally I'd try and make them apologize for Windows first before we sat down to eat.
Mitnick is a shithead. He broke the law, then got screwed in prison, now he milks it all he can. Cuz he's the notorious kevin mitnick. Oooh lala. He exploits the fact that people are lazy and incompetent. Not exactly news.
That prick should go out and contribute something of meaning to society. I mean, other than his contempt for "the man."
Tom
I've been to dinner with people from Microsoft, Intel, AMD, Broadcom, Sandisk, the DoD, CRA (Canada), etc.
It's fucking dinner.
Wait till they offer him a grant, job or other swag to be impressed. If they gave him a grant to bash the shit out of Windows that'd be impressive. A $50 dinner on the strip is not (though free eats is good)
Tom
I dunno, leaving your passport somewhere isn't always the smartest thing either. For starters, if you are requested to show government ID, your american driver licenses is not legal ID in most cases. If you run afoul and need your embassy to bail your ass out you will need your passport as well, etc...
I've stayed in hotels in Dijon, Rennes, Saclay and Paris. Not once did they ask to see it for more than just the photo ID (I kept the passport). I've stayed in two different hotels in Dublin, same story, etc...
I'm the first to admit that WESTERN europe is not the same as the rest of europe. I imagine in Germany or Poland or some such the rules may be diff.
Tom
Really? Where?
I've been at hotels in Ireland, France and England and never once gave them my passport. I might use it as ID e.g. to prove I'm me. But they don't keep it.
Most of the time they don't care. They just swipe your credit card and are glad to take your money....
Tom
And to think I clear 3900 USD/mo and that's not alot for me ... hehehe (it's way more than enough, just seems you always find a way to spend your money).
Of course I live in Canada so the cost of living is a bit higher than $6/day. Without a cell/net/tv you could survive on about 900/mo (rent+food+clothes) but your life would suck balls.
Tom
One distro to rule them all....hehehe Mostly my confusion comes from the fact that for many business needs Gentoo flips the bill just fine. Yet people still pay for things like SLES or RHES.
I can take a gentoo boot CD and make a desktop, laptop, server, gaming box, whatever. Why I would pay for something like SLES where updates are annoying to get and always in binary form? If I wanted a pointy-clicky OS I'd get Knoppix/Ubuntu or god forbid a Windows license.
Tom
Making me remember the horrors of college... And the shit that was blackboard. It was always down for repairs and the online exams were trivial to cheat at.
What a crock...
Tom
Congrats you're redundant!
If your boss makes the tech decisions anyways what are you doing there?
Tom